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Hi, everyone. This is pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

And you're listening to our special three part series on the future of travel, where we look at the business and tech trends affecting how we make our way through the world. Today we're talking about automobiles and the EV industry, which we talk a lot about on pivot. Here to chat with us about the future of EV's is Bea Spiller. Bea is an energy economist and the transportation program director for the resources for the Future. Welcome, Bea.

Thanks so much for having me.

So let's talk about the state of the EV industry. Growth rates for sales have slowed, though prices have come down. Ford has scaled back EV expansion plans and Tesla 10% of its global workforce. Is the industry truly slowing or is everything getting settling out, given the boom in the investor?

Try not to be too pessimistic about this situation. Right. We are at 9.1% of monthly sales being plug in electric vehicles, with 80% of those being battery electric vehicles. So I think we're in a great spot. And the issue really is that there's a lot of reasons why we might see account like in 2022, we're at 6.8%. While that ramped up to 9.3% in 2023, and people are expecting to see a further increase year over year. But I'm not so sure we should expect it to move so quickly, because what ends up happening is that we start moving into a really different segment of the population. Who's purchasing these vehicles? We started in the early years of people, environmentalists who care about the environment and maybe techie. They definitely have garages. Now we're moving into the customers who don't have garages, and so they're going to depend upon public charging stations. You have people living in cold weather areas. And what we've seen, while cold weather really decreases the range of these vehicles. So there's going to be a lot more trepidation on the part of these individuals living in the midwest and the northeast to purchase these vehicles.

People who have to drive a lot, right? Maybe they're not really willing to go into electric vehicles. And crucially, households who only have one car, what have we seen right now? We've seen a lot of these households, they have a gasoline vehicle and have their electric vehicle, so they're switching off between the two. But now you're starting to get into people who only have one vehicle. How risky is it for them to move into electric before they really know how these are going to function, where they're going to charge it and such? So I think at this point, we need to start really stepping up issues like education, outreach, getting people to understand how they can use these vehicles and how it would work for them. And we have to start really focusing in on the reliability of the chargers, making sure that they work during the wintertime, you know, making sure that the chargers are price transparent. You show up to a charging station, there's no prices listed.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a real janky experience still, although it is certainly getting better. And you're seeing them in apartment buildings. You're seeing them all over the place. One of my places I go, there's now, there used to be two. Now there's dozens. Airport, for example, at DCA and IAD have like a stream of chargers down on the end, which was made it easier to think, oh, I'll go here. Right. This is actually easier. But one of the things that I think about, I have a car, I have a gasoline car, a hybrid car, and then an electric car. We're thinking about going fully electric because it's been easy for us. Obviously, we're a dual income household and we're a little more educated on the topic and understand how we actually drive, which isn't very far. Isn't particularly far. Scott, what's your question for where we are right now?

I'm just curious what you think of BYD and whether or not these tariffs imposed on BYD does that considerably slow the adoption of electric.

And this is for people who don't know. Let's just say this is the chinese company that makes very cost effective cars that are very inexpensive in China and could make them very inexpensive here.

Well, I think to a certain degree, tariffs are, import tariffs are really problematic because they don't force us to have competition. Right? It doesn't allow us to have really cheap electric vehicles. But at the same time, even before those tariffs were jacked up, we were not seeing a lot of chinese vehicles here. We already faced a, you know, some tariff in imports, but at the same time, they just weren't being sold. So I'm not really sure that the tariffs will have sort of meaningful changes and how many electric vehicles are actually imported since we were already starting with kind of close to zero coming from China. But I think it's a real failure because right now these electric vehicles are expensive and so we have to be subsidizing them as a country. We have to rely upon the federal tax credits, which are not great. There's a very few percentage of vehicles that actually are eligible for these tax credits because of where the minerals come from and where the batteries are being manufactured. And so we were trying to pump money at demand rather than saying, hey, how do we actually increase competition? And letting some of these vehicles come in and forcing manufacturers to take a little look at how are they actually going to produce low cost vehicles is really important because what are the oems doing?

For the most part, they started off with the most expensive vehicles. You've got the Ford Lightning, you've got the mock.

That's what they do. That's what they all do. That's how it typically starts.

But, and they have very high profit margins on those vehicles. And so they are using that to reinvest in their, in their industry rather.

Than the inexpensive ones. But when it, when it comes to a lot of electric cars, everyone thinks Tesla for before now, there's, there's a lot more when it comes to EV's. Are there other players in the game you think don't get enough attention here in the US that are doing a more competitive job?

I actually think what's not getting a lot of attention are some of these new charging station companies, these startup charging station companies that are working to actually bring revenues into the hands of individuals. For example, one is called it's electric. And what they do is they work with a homeowner to actually, you know, they identify homeowners who have excess capacity on their electric panel, and they pull the electric cord out into the street, they make an investment to a public charger, and then the homeowner's actually able to get some of the revenues from that. And there's several companies who are looking to do that in multifamily dwellings. And I think those types of solutions are really exciting and nobody's really talking about that. Everyone always talks about the big national charging stations like EvGO and Tesla, and we're not really thinking about how do we actually bring charging station revenues into the general public.

I have a charger at my house and I thought, why don't they borrow my charger in some fashion right on the street? And you've seen some things where the chargers come down from the sea, from the, from the top of the pole, and they drop down, and then you, where you're parking, you plug it in. There's all sorts of innovative ideas. But talk about the supercharger team layoffs and why did this happen after he struck deals with other car makers through Tesla? Did.

I'm not going to try to look into the brain of EloN MUsk at all.

Good luck.

We can take him at his word, which what he said when he did the layoffs was, we need to think about reassessing how reliable these chargers actually are. I think that the winter fiasco, right, of those Teslas all piled up at a charging station, taking, taking them hours to recharge, which should have taken 20 minutes, was a huge reputation hit for Tesla's chargers. So I think this idea of, rather than continuing to expand, let's make sure we're actually getting the ones that we have to work so that our reliability is up in the Midwest and in the cold states. I think that's actually a really good strategy. And I'm excited to see the market OPeN up to other players. You know, there's a lot of competition out there, and if it's being dominated by three or four companies, then we're not going to be ABle to have actual price competition come out.

So we've had government subsidies. We had some great companies come into the space. We've had huge investment by the traditional guys, inspired by the new guys, and yet there's still, the vast majority of cars that are sold are still internal combustion engines. Do you think there's just a certain, maybe even the majority of car owners that just want an internal combustion engine? Is there a limit to the market share that ev's can acquire?

I don't think so. I really don't think that people enjoy refueling with gasoline. I think they're just nervous about what it means to go electric. Obviously, there are some folks who are just really anti environmental anything. And so they love their diesel, they love the gas.

I just want to pause there, because I do think you're dismissing a group of people who do like the sound and the feel of an internal combustion engine who still care about the environment that, you know, there is. There is, and I'm one of them. I bought an EV for all the reasons you're talking about, but I still prefer driving an internal combustion engine. And I think there's a lot of us out there.

Well, that's interesting. Because of the sound, because of the.

Feel, because of the responsiveness, because it makes me feel strong like bull, because of the rumble.

It makes him feel like a man, quite frankly. That's not what makes the hum. A humming car is not what makes you a man. But he doesn't like the hum. Over the broom. Broom.

There you go. Anyways, what I will agree with, though, just to validate your point, the gas station. Once you stop going to a gas station, you forget how awful they are. It feels like carcinogens, and that's where you're likely to get shot. I agree with you. Not having to go to the gas station is a big, big differentiator. Yeah.

I drive past gas stations that I go, so long, sucker. I yell out the window, just wave at them. Yeah, I do. I say, so long, sucker. I do it. It's so pleasurable. But go ahead, keep going.

So what I understood is that electric vehicles, especially the new ones that are out there, are extremely responsive. They have a lot of torque. They have more torque and really great performance.

The performance is amazing.

They're amazing.

I think to a certain degree. If folks can try it out and see does it actually give them that performance that they're looking for, we might be able to sway some of the people who really love their gasoline vehicles.

So would reduce prices, increase adoption, or. What's the biggest hurdle facing the EV industry was at a low, but it suddenly feels like maybe it's going up again. Like the people are. They overdid and now they're. And now the prices are coming down. Because I do think people do want to try these things out. I do. I think there's a feeling among a lot of people, not just the elite necessarily, that this is interesting. So what is the. And then some of the cars. The mock is great. That's an expensive car. But even the little inexpensive cars are very. I have a Chevy Bolt, as I discuss all the time. I love it. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. But what's the biggest hurdle facing the EV industry right now and will reduce prices, increase adoption?

I do think that reducing prices significantly would help adoption, but that's not it. That's not all of it, right? There's so many other issues. And part of it is range anxiety from individuals, particularly those who don't have garages. Is it really going to be able to get me where I need to go? If not, what do I do? How do I get my car? It ran out of electricity. I can't just walk to the gas station and bring some electricity with me to power the car. So these are some issues that are going to require a massive expansion and charging station network, which we are headed in that direction, but also a lot more education. And I would also say, you know, can we start to actually really test out the range before telling people, hey, you're going to have 350 miles range? I've been hearing from EV drivers. I was told 350. It's never more than 200. Okay, how does this happen? Why are we being told something? But then it's totally different. It feels a little bit like when you go to buy a gasoline car, they tell you the mile per gallon is going to be 30, and then you're getting 15, which is what happened with my Subaru forester.

And so it does feel like a little bit of bait and switch.

What's interesting is that there's been a bump in hybrids, which to me indicates people want to move in this direction, but they want that little bit of safety of a gas gasoline that you have both choices, you know, and you'd like to rely on electric. It is a whole lot less range. Anxiety is a real thing, but you really don't, when you actually look at how most people, many people drive, not everybody, and certainly not in the Midwest or in these more rural areas, but you don't drive that far, right? You don't actually drive as far as you think. And which is with most people. With many, many people. But you still don't want that. If you have kids, you don't want range anxiety and stuff like that. What about reduced prices? I think reduced prices is what will get people buying these things, correct?

Absolutely. I mean, if you can go and purchase a $25,000 electric vehicle, I think that would really ramp up demand. There's a lot of needs, and I also just want to mention a lot of people have needs that aren't being met by the options that are out there. So, for example, there's just no similar type of vehicle, for example, like a forester, like the one that I have, which has a really big trunk, really big carrying capacity. The only option is the Rivian, which costs like $100,000. So where are these affordable vehicles that provide these other needs that people have? The minivans, the big carrying capacity that's not completely unaffordable. So once we start having more options, and it's not just about the cheap ones, because maybe I don't want to buy a, you know, four door sedan that has no carrying capacity for 25k. Right.

Well, the Ford Lightning is quite a car. I drove it, the Hummer. They can get the Hummer.

It's really expensive, too.

But it's cool. I drove it and everyone loved it. Okay, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk more with Bea about the future of Ev's.

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Hey, Kara, it's Scott. Remember the guy, the Tina Feder, Alec Baldwin sort of rejuvenated your career and he was. I'm at the lounge at Heathrow. I'm at the Leathro, the Virgin lounge, the Virgin Atlanta clubhouse lounge. And I'm about to have the chicken tikka masala. I love it here. You should check it out. It's where the cool kids hang out. Anyways, hope you're well. Safe travels, Scott.

Frankly, it's a miracle that Virgin Atlantic let you into the clubhouse. And incredible business class. But I guess they did tell me how it was.

So, Kara, I'm an original gangster when it comes to virgin. I've been flying virgin for 20 plus years, and I do the same thing, and they get it right every time. They always have the financial times for me. And I order the chicken tikka masala. That is my virgin experience. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And your drink was, what is your drink?

Well, I used to drink a Bloody Mary or a beer in the clubhouse. I don't drink alcohol when I travel anymore, so I just do mineral water. But they have this kind of cool cocktail that's like a lemongrass or some sort of cool margarita thing. And I get it. I get a virgin one.

What is your pre flight routine? What is your actual, besides your chicken tikka masala at the Virgin clubhouse?

My pre flight routine is, well, I always do the same thing in the morning when I travel. I try and work out. I take the dogs for a walk, and I always make time for the clubhouse because I do enjoy the virgin clubhouse at heathrow. So check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip and see the world differently. Certain amenities are only available in selected cabins and aircraft.

Scott, we're back with our special series on the future of travel. We're talking Ev's with bea Spiller Scott, what is your question here about the environment? What's your next interest?

Have you thought about, has anyone looked at this? So some old school people who are trying to probably protect the incumbents will say that the environmental impact of EV's, whether it's rare earth materials or the cost to build, charging or build these factories, that the environmental protection offered by EV's has been overstated. Do you think I'll put that there. Do you think there's any truth to that argument?

I think it depends on how we see things moving into the future. So we will need a lot more critical minerals. If we continue to just make mines that are completely bad for the environment and really harmful, then, yeah, there's our trade offs and this is exactly what we need to avoid. So there's new technology out there that is actually really thinking, how can we actually get those minerals out of the ground in a way that's not harmful, that reduces, reduces the land impacts, it reduces the social impacts. And so there's a lot of new technologies out there. I think we really need to be pushing this technological innovation on extraction and make sure that we can reduce the environmental impact of it. And there's a lot of efforts that are being made now. So I don't think that the, I don't think that it's going to continue in the same way as it has before. And for me, I believe that the environmental impact of electric vehicles will just improve over time.

Okay. So when you think about what's to come, you have Scott mentioned regulators and different things like that. You have the Biden administration, which is sort of not all in on EV's, but all in on EV's. And then you have Trump talking about getting rid of EV's. Is there any, does that really matter? Will their statements matter or not? And obviously, California's trying to get everyone to buy EV's and get rid of gasoline powered cars. Where do you think, what impact will the politics have on this?

Politics could have some impact, for example, if they slow the release of funds through the charging and fueling infrastructure grants and the Navy funds, the national electric vehicle infrastructure funds. These are programs that provide billions of dollars to investing in charging station. The federal government could slow roll the release of those funds and that would then reduce how many charging stations are built. For example, I think it might be really hard to get rid of the federal tax credits. You know, they would, this is legislation, so they would have to, you know, they could work towards that. They could try to remove the federal tax credits but in the end, it's really hard to tell, to tell manufacturers, you can't do this right if the demand is headed that way. A lot of manufacturers have made commitments to this and are really invested. There's somewhat of a ball rolling that it's just really, really hard to stop. Regardless of how much republicans might dislike electric vehicles, once you sort of get that demand going. And the California is not the only one. There's a lot of states that have, that have adopted the ZEv mandates, and so they will be pushing manufacturers to require sales of electric vehicles ramping up pretty quickly, and that covers a lot of the sales in the country.

I think there's very limited amount that the federal government can do to stop this.

Yeah, I think the car companies are well ahead of Donald Trump on this issue. They're far beyond it, even if you don't like some of the restrictions the government puts into place. So where do you think the EV industry will be in five to ten years? Any big changes or new top players? We have talked about Tesla losing market share, which it's been doing, as others come into, for not just chinese companies, but all the companies are sort of committed in this area. So the more competition and choice can consumers get, the more, more cars there will be, et cetera, et cetera. So where do you think the industry will be in five to ten years?

I'm hoping that we're going to have a huge amount, a huge array of options. Right. Like I was telling you about, no minivans, no really affordable suv's or, you know, vehicles that are actually suv's and not just look like crossovers for these people who have these other needs. So I think we're going to see a lot more options out there. And I would also say that we haven't talked at all about trucks, like actual long haul trucks and delivery trucks. I think we're going to see a lot more adoption in the medium heavy duty vehicle sector and probably more push to make sure that these fleets are able to shift to electric when they want to.

Well, there's Aurora, obviously, and that's also autonomous. There's a lot of interesting investments there. I always think those are going to be first because they're efficient. They take, you know, it's easier to charge them. They'll go to charging stations outside of a city, and then smaller trucks will take things into cities. Some of these autonomous long haul trucks are really exciting. I think they are. And you can see how much money they save.

I mean, the autonomous thing, I think, you know, that's. That's a whole separate issue. Right. And they do need to be electric, but I think there's a lot of concern about autonomous vehicles. And, you know, are they actually safe? Are they able to work?

Yes, of course. Well, they're safer than people, that's for sure.

I agree. I agree.

I'm going with the autonomous over people in the end, Scott.

Sure. So we spent a lot of time talking about the new players across the legacy companies and include the international, the Toyotas, the Hyundais, the Volkswagens of the world, but also General Motors, Ford Stellantis. Who do you think does the best job in EV's as it relates to the legacy players?

I'm really excited about General Motors. I think one of the things that they've done, which is really exciting, is build these ultium cells. So they have a partnership with LG to create these batteries that are manufactured here in the United States. They get their minerals from friendly, environmentally safe locations, and they have these sort of modular batteries. So, you know, if one part starts to fail, they can. They can replace it. So they're doing a lot. They've. They've been very aggressive about their sales targets. I know they did walk back, walk some of that back, but until they walked it back, I was, I think, most optimistic about general motors, really sort of rising to the top in terms of, you know, one of the legacy Oems and being able to provide a wide variety of electric vehicles at affordable prices.

Okay, last question. If someone came to you for advice on how to pick an EV to buy, what would be your recommendations?

I think that the issue is, what do you need it for? How do you actually drive? And it's just going to be really, really personal. How many miles are you driving every day? Do you own your own garage? How close do you live to charging stations? All of these questions need to be considered. When you're purchasing an electric vehicle. I would hesitate to give anybody advice. Go, go do this. Try out this vehicle. Rather think about what are your needs? What are the vehicles out there that meet those needs and then begin to move forward? Because I think the first question is, is an EV going to work for you? And if so, what are you targeting? Should it be a plug in hybrid? Should it be a full battery electric? All of these things are going to depend on what your own personal driving needs are.

If you were to make a prediction about where the EV market is going to be in three years, do you think that this is just a temporary blip, that the kind of the trough or the slowdown, it starts to reemerge again. Do you think that it's going to come back stronger than ever? Are we just going through, I forget what they call it, new technologies. There's a hype cycle, then they go through this valley of death and they come back. Where do you think we are in this cycle?

I feel like we've passed the valley of death. I think we will just continue to ramp it up. How quickly? I don't want to make a prediction about that, but the fact is that charging stations are going to be more and more ubiquitous. So I expect within three years, we're going to have a lot more charging stations. It's going to be a lot more obvious that you can charge in your neighborhood and along major roadways and being able to go longer distances, that I think will really ramp up demand. And I'm hopeful that even with the tax credits, the requirements for critical minerals, that the manufacturers will have adjusted where they're getting their minerals and make, making their own batteries here in the United States, and so be a lot more vehicles that are eligible for the tax credit in the coming years. And so that should actually, that combined with the charging stations should be able to ramp up demand in a way that I'm hopeful will continue that trend.

Yeah, I would agree. Remember how hard it was to get on the Internet, Scott? Do you remember?

You've got mail.

It was so hard. This is how it always goes. And it's gotten easier in the last year, I can tell you that. That's for sure. Okay, Scott, that's it for our part two of our three part series on the future of travel, giving you trains and automobiles. And we'll be digging into planes next. Thank you, Bea Spiller, for talking to us. We appreciate it.

Thank you so much. This is fun.

Today's show was produced by Larry Neiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Brandon McFarland engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs and Neal Silverio. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

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