You're listening to Pop Culture Debate Club. I'm Amina Tussot. Each week, we bring together two guests to duke it out over a pop culture obsession. I'll be asking them a series of questions, and whoever successfully convinces me wins. Today, we're discussing which TV ensemble would make for the best hang. Let's meet our panelists. Joining me today is Candice Lim, co-host of Slate's IcyMI podcast. Candice, welcome to the show.

Hello.

Also with us today is Ronald Young Jr, the host of the TV and Film podcast, Leaving the Theater, as well as the host of WaitForIt. Hi, Ronald. I'm so happy that you're here with us today.

Hello, I'm Anatu. I am happy to be here. Hello, Candice. Hello. I'm excited about this.

Okay, Candice, let's get into it. What did you choose?

So my pick is New Girl. I love this show. This show is just such pure energy, great vibes, friends that you genuinely would want to hang out with day to day to day. And I think as someone who watched this in middle school and kept binging it on Netflix as an adult, this show never gets old me because I connect with all of them in this very prism way of I see myself in all of you, like a pie. And so that's my pick, New Girl.

Wow. Okay. Coming in strong. But, Ronald, what show did you pick for today?

Now, here's the thing. I like New Girl, but I still think that my pick is better. Let me just come off the top rope with that one. I am going to the fictional town of Greendale Community College to hang out with the study group. All of the gang, we're talking Troy and Abed in the morning, we're talking Britta Perry, we're talking Jeff Winger, and all of the cast of Community, I think they would be the best hang. Let me ask you all a question. Do you all like diversity?

Wow. First of all, how dare you? How dare you? I ask the questions here. Do you like diversity? Yeah.

I do. Do you like sexual tension?

How I dare you?

Do you like sexual tension? I do, and I like hijinks as well. And this show has all three. That is my opening argument.

Dang. Okay.

So your mission clearly is to win me over with your pick today, right? And Ronald has already gone very strongly with his opening argument, but I want to slow down and talk and ask you, Ronald, to tell me a little bit more about the show.

Okay. So Jeff Winger, played by Joel McHale, is a former lawyer who is for some reason disbarred, which is revealed as it goes on in the show. I think it's revealed pretty early in season one, if I'm not mistaken. He goes to Greendale Community College in an effort to write some wrongs with his past in terms of his education and his path to becoming a lawyer. While he's there, he joins an introductory Spanish class that is taught by- Ken Jones. That is taught by Kin Cheung as Ben Chang, Senior Chang, as he calls himself. In an effort to make sure that he is getting the best grades in class, he stumbles into starting a study group with a cast of characters that is very diverse in both race and in thought and in gender, just about anything that you could think of. And hijinks ensue. That is the plot of the show. I like the show because mainly it tells the story of what it is actually like to be a part of a community college, a college, generally. But they nail the idea of community college. Well, if anyone's ever been to community college, it is a bunch of what feels like a hodgepodge of people all at one place, all going for goals that feel similar, but put you next to people that you might not choose to be around.

And this plays into those differences and similarities very well.

Okay, Candice, I'm going to give you a chance to do the same for your show, for the people at home who are not familiar with New Girl.

Zoe DeChanel stars in this show. She plays a teacher who moves in with three guys into this loft in downtown LA. I would say Jess is very quintessential manic Pixi girl. She is very quirky. She sings randomly out of nowhere. I'm going to be honest, if I met her in real life, I'd probably want to stab her. But the thing is, I think this show does a good job of bouncing her out with people that are genuinely funny people. You have nick, that's Jake Johnson. You have Schmidt, who was his college roommate and is now just this type A marketing guy, but he works at an agency that's women only, which is very funny to me. Then we have Coach, Damon Wayans Jr. Very good, Very funny, interesting story there. We have Cee Cee, who is a model and Jess's childhood best friend. I'm saving the best for last, Winston, who is played by Lamorne Morris. Cartoon personified. I mean, he stole a cat from Brenda's song. He's like Willy Wanka on this show. I love everything about this cast because I think this show really gives them a lot of grace in terms of tracing their characters, and they let them grow and fall in love and do all these things that I think really encapsulates that late '20s, early '30s existence of like, I'm an adult with roommates, and I don't want to grow up, but I have to, so can we do it together?

And I think that's actually very sweet. And the thing is, Ronald, I see you. I see you because hijinks also ensue in this show go often to the point of they go to Prince's house, to the point of they try to stalk one of Jess's students because they think he's going to murder her. And at the end of the day, I think we all just want to hop into a car that we don't have to drive and go somewhere, and that's fun.

Has the debate portion begun? Because I'd like to debate hijinks right now.

Listen, the debate portion began the minute you started arguing. I wish had a bell and it could go like, round one, round two, round three. Well, Candice, let's get into it. Which are the characters on New Girl, specifically, do you think is the best hang?

This is a good question because community was on my shortlist as well. I considered it. The thing is, when I was thinking about what show would I want to hang out with most, one, I was thinking composite of I would love to connect with one person, but I would like to be accepted by all. I was also thinking, look at all the guest stars on these shows. Who has the best at it? Who gets treated well and fairly and openly and all that stuff? With New Girl, I think it's more of like, this is not like, Are you a Chandler? Are you a Ted? This is more of like, I think New Girl is a prism through which every character holds a certain percentage of your true makeup. And so when I first started the show, I was like, I might be a Jess, but as an adult, I think my percentages have changed. I think I'm a bit of like a Cee-C sun, Schmidt Moon, Coach Rising.

Wow. For the astrology people at home. This is who you're pandering to. I love that for you. I know.

Seo. I have nick and Winston on the bench in case I need them. I need Jess in case I need to go to the DMV. I think all of these people carry something in their pockets that are useful to me at any time of day.

Okay. What about you, Ronald?

Okay. With a show like Community, you don't have to pick one person that you would hang with because if you show to Greendale Community College, there is probably a click that will fit you in there. Now, you probably won't necessarily be able to get into the study group. Many people have tried and failed. But if you don't, there are plenty of other groups that you can join into. Now, let's be clear, you can hang out with Troy and Abed, you could go to a party at their apartment, and maybe Annie will be there, too. But I think one of the strengths of a Greendale Community College and the characterization of the characters is that you have so many that you're interested in, even though they're not a of the main crew. There's people like Star burns, who is just like your typical bird out with Starbirdz at a top hat. There's Leonard, who is a geriatric member of the community college who's just always up to hijinks with this posse I have old folks who are just running around creating havoc on campus. And then there's Magnitude, pop, pop, who's just popular for no reason.

I forget that that's where that comes from. You pop, like, wow.

So in terms of hanging out, if I enrolled in Greendale community college, there's opportunities for you to fit in with anyone at Greendale Community College.

I don't know. That seems pretty... You're really swaying me towards this universe that I have to confess. It's not a natural fit for me to be excited about community, and now all I want to do is rewatch all of it.

I'm telling you, you fit right in on my not too. You got to go.

I don't know that I fit right in, but I would audit a class is what I'm That's fair. I'm so struck that both of you are talking about two shows that definitely feel like TV, TV. I think that there's so much like- They're the last of TV. Right. Everyone is making... Tv is great because there's so much of it. It's endless. The form is constantly morphing. It's exciting to be in an art form that is less than 100 years old. You're like, Oh, we're still making the thing. But you're both talking about very classic TV, TV tropes, down to the hijinks.

I think for both shows, what they were, they were the last and the first. So they were the last in a lot of ways of traditional television, as you say, where you had to worry about commercials, you had to worry about set up punch joke. But a lot of the work that was done in these, and I would say the companion series for New Girl being Happy Endings in a lot of ways, especially with the connection of Damon Wayne Jr. Being in both, when you think about the ways in which television was in the golden age in the early 'ots' and to the early teens in a way where Mad Men was on Breaking Bad, these were sitcoms that none of us expected to be good and for us to attach to. You know what I mean? So I feel like for me, and especially the fact that community TV, which I would like to give another point to myself.

I give the points here. Relax.

That also starts a bit of the streaming era with Yahoo's Screen, which is RIP, the Yahoo's Screen, but starts that foray into more what we know as television of today now to be hybrid digital and analog. So I feel like what we were looking at here, we didn't even really know that this was the last and the first. And it's this push into television as we know it today, which is a little bit more It's heartfelt, but it's still a little bit more sarcastic. It's still a little bit more snarky, both shows. It's still a little bit more leaning into the uncoolness and the awkwardness and the anxiety that a lot of millennials are dealing with today. But we didn't have a show like that for us until the 'auts' and the 'teens'. Before that, I think, I'm not even sure what we had. We had shows we were attached to, but nothing that really defined our generation. I think these shows are among a cohort that started to do that.

Candice, do you agree with that?

I do. I think it's really funny, Ronald, that you brought up the flop season of Community on Yahoo because that dig on you. Trash. I agree. I remember at the time, there were some great shows on, like Glee, The Mindy Project, Brooklyn Nine-Nine. And there was something about the way that New Girls stood out for me in that, yes, it would eventually become this softer, warmer comfort watch. And When I think about it, I think about the guest stars they were able to book, right? They had Rob Reiner on there playing Jess's dad. They had Jamie Lee Curtis, Megan Fox, Prince. Let's talk about my Trump card, Prince. Prince loved New New Girl.

That's a pretty good point in your camp.

Yeah. So Prince loved New Girl so much that he said, I want to make a cameo, and I will only make the cameo if you get Jess and nick together. Otherwise, I'm not doing it. And I was like, first off, power moves. But second, Prince and Taylor Swift walked onto these shows. They were fans, and they weren't even the best guest stars of the entire thing. And so I just think there was this outsized love from everywhere that I felt. I don't know, maybe at the end of the day, Prince is just like me. We just want to hang out in a Ford Flex with all these people and go get yogurt.

Well, that's pretty remarkable because I just watched the documentary about the We Are the World song. I forget what the doc is called. But Prince, notorious for being a hater and not wanting to go to that recording that night. So it's funny to me that you're like, he marched himself onto the set of New Girl when he would not march himself to sing with his peers. Let's take a quick break. We'll be back in a minute. The best way to learn a language is through immersion, living where the language is spoken natively and using it every day. But that's not possible for everyone. So what's the second best way to learn a language? Babel. Because with Babel, you can start speaking a new language in just three weeks. Babel offers 14 languages to choose from. Babel is designed by real people for real conversations. All of Babel's tips and tools for learning a new language are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. With over 10 million subscriptions sold, Babel is real language learning for real conversation. Here's a special limited-time deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babel subscription, but only for our listeners at babel.

Com/popculture. Get up to 60% off at babel. Com/popculture, spelled B-A-B-B-B-E-L. Com/popculture. Spelled, babbel. Com/popculture. Rules and restrictions may apply. And we're back. Candice, what's something about New Girl that you think most people people don't know. Yeah.

So on top of Prince walking onto the show just because he wanted to, I love talking about Damon Wayne's Jr. And his role in the show. So basically, when they shot the pilot for New Girl, Damon Wayne's Jr. Is in it. Lamour Morris is not. And at the time, Damon was already cast on Happy Endings. They had shot a season, all this stuff. He thought Happy Endings was not going to get picked up for a second season. So he said, Yeah, let me do New Girl. It'll be so fun. A new show. I love a paycheck. Happy Endings does end up getting picked up, and he's like, I guess I have to choose. And so he ends up doing Happy Endings. They bring in Lamorne Morris. And Lamorne was not really a character in the pilot. Winston wasn't really a fully formed idea. And so that first season, they basically give Lamorne the opportunity to build a character on his own, to build quirks, to build little affectations, and to just freeform it. And I think that is actually really, really fun and beautiful because he really made Winston a very, very big favorite iconic character.

Now, Happy Endings does end up getting canceled after three seasons, and Damon ends up coming back, and he just picks up as Coach and I just love that the New Girl team didn't hold it against Damon for being on another sitcom, and instead just let him come back and gave him actually a really good character arc that made me cry at one point. This show, I think, is the reason why Damon Wayans Jr. Is one of my favorite comedic actors, and I think that plus happy endings, what a run for him. What a Wikipedia page.

It's great. What about you, Ronald? What's a little fun fact about your show that you want to plug?

There's a lot of Easter eggs in a community. You could probably, if you watch the show, you see something new every time, especially from the ways that they're talking to each other. The dialog is really fast. But one of my favorite ones was one that a friend pointed out to me that upon my second watch, I actually paid attention to, which is that there was a show, a movie in the '90s, which I'm sure you're both familiar with, called Beetlejuice. You know that if you say Beetlejuice's name three times, Beetlejuice, played by Michael Keaton, will show up to solve mysteries or take care of your problems or whatever it was that Beetlejuice was supposed to be doing. And this in community, over the course of three seasons, they said the name Beetlejuice three times. And in the third season, if you're paying attention, Beetlejuice walks by in the background, which is incredible. And it's over the course. It's great for a binge watch because as soon as you see it happen, it happens very quickly. But it was little details like that that I always found really interesting about that show, that they were always just painting a little bit of fun into the edges of the show, just coming at you all the time.

That was one where I'm just like, wow, But whoever was in the writers room was just like, Oh, here's a chance for us to do something in a couple of seasons. And it's not so flashy that it would take away from whatever was going in the main plot. So I love that community did stuff like that all the time.

Yeah. You know what's funny? There's also a Michael Keaton moment in New Girl where Schmidt, his entire life, thinks he's been emailing Michael Keaton, but it was actually his mom. And nick ends up taking over the email account and sending him basically therapist notes, which is hilarious. But maybe this podcast is actually about Michael Keaton. Interesting.

It is. It's about, today we'll be discussing Birdman and your feelings about it. One of my favorite tropes in modern TV, TV or early odds TV is that miscorrespondence technology trope. You remember in the office when Criid thought that he had a blog and it was really just a Google. It's really just a Google document and it was like, Criid thought, like W-W-W. It's a word document. Whatever. I remember the first time I saw that. It's still a top 10 laugh for me. Well, I also... Ronald, since you brought up diversity so many times, since you are such a champion of DEI- I am. As people of flavor, it's just things we have to you have to bring up. I'm just wondering for both of you, reexamining the show that you love through this 2024 lens, is there anything about it that doesn't hold up for you? Is there anything that you struggle with or it feels cringy now today?

I think the The only thing that doesn't really hold up for Community is its creator, Dan Harmon, who has had some troubles in the past, which you can Google and look at. But the work itself, I think Community, after rewatching, it still holds up. There's one episode that was taken down in 2020 that they called a Blackface episode, which I don't know if I would call it that. It is with Ken Jung, who is dressed up as a dark elf. I I thought the joke was funny. At some point, Yvette, Nicole Brown, looks over because it's Halloween. Or no, it's Dungeons and Dragons. She looks over at Ken Jungs, who is covered head to toe in blackface in black paint as an elf. She goes, Are we going to ignore this hate crime over here? And he goes, What? I'm a dark elf. I laughed. I thought the joke was funny. That episode is gone, and it was gone as a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of folks saying, Well, Blackface is always bad, without really doing a critical examination of what actually is blackface face in a lot of cases. I think this playing along the lines of saying this person dressed up in black paint could also be considered Blackface is lampooning the idea of Blackface itself, which I think for me works.

I don't even know if that episode exists in the canon anymore, or I don't know if you could find it on streaming or anything like that. But other than that, in a lot of ways, community was incredibly progressive and ahead of its time and addressing these types of relationships. I think it holds up to a good rewatch in today's age.

What about you, Kenneth?

Well, actually, Ronald, I got to cross-examine you a little bit. Are we going to talk about pierce? We love it. We love it. Are we going to talk about pierce?

Chevy Chase. We can because I think the idea of pierce and the things that he was doing, to me, sit the same way that Michael Scott did, where the idea of this person is that no one likes them and we don't like what they're doing. And they exist, not for them to just do whatever whatever they want to do. But for us to be like, We don't want to be like Michael Scott or we don't want to be like pierce. So pierce Hawthorn, he's an older man in the study group, and he is extremely problematic. He is a person that is like, he says whatever's on his mind. He talks about the Black folks in the group. He talks disparagingly about the women in the group. But also the group is very dismissive of him in a very specific way, to the point where towards the end of Chevy Chase's run on the show, it It turns out there was a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff going on that proved to bear that Chevy Chase wasn't very different from the pierce Hawthorn character in that people didn't like him. Donald Glover has come out and said, I didn't really like Chevy Chase.

There was a lot of ways we didn't get along. There's ways he talked about my race, all of that. So I think in terms of, I still want that character to exist, if not to be a cautionary tale for folks of what not to be. But I think sometimes people can see a character like that and not realize that that's not the character you're supposed to aspire to be. So they see it in that example, instead of looking at it and saying, I don't want to be that, they're like, Oh, wow, this person's cool. I don't think that's the case for Piers Hawthorne. So I think it's okay if he still exists.

Yeah. He went method and you're separating art from the artist. Correct. So here's the thing. I think the tough thing is that when we talk about the central tenant here, who would be a good hang, I do agree with you that Abba, Troy, Annie, absolutely great people to chill out with. They are so lawful good. But that pierce card on top of Joel McHale just being so smarmy, I'd feel like an endangered species. I don't know if I could do it.

All right. If we're opening it up to saying who I would not like to hang out with, I think Jess is- Hold on.

Candice, you have talked about why you would not hang out on the community set. What's the problematic thing about hanging out in your crew?

I think if I think about, does New Girl stand up in 2024? Most of it, yes. I'm not going to call New Girl completely innocent. If I do a very thorough rewatch, I may have scenes or line readings that don't strike me as clean-cut. For example, one of my favorite guest stars on the show is Ralph Ahn, who played Tran, who was like, this really adorable grandpa who sits with nick while he's having a mental breakdown and therapies him back into life by holding him like a baby in a community swimming pool. I love the way they talk about Ralph Ahn, who has passed since, and they have so much respect for him. But a part of me is wondering, is there something a little coded there about having this character walk on who is an elder Asian person who does not speak a single line of dialog? Is there something there that maybe they capitalize on and use as a plot device without really interrogating like, Hey, are we calling them voiceless? Let's have that conversation.

It's time for a quick break. We'll be back in a minute. How's everyone doing?

Good to go.

Are Are we still friends? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, good. What are you talking about? I'm just getting a vibe check here because at some point I was like, Is this Anatomy of a Fall? Are we about to go to French court?

Where are we? First of all, this soon into Anatomy of a Fall, somebody was already dead. It was pierce.

Just kidding.

Okay, now that we have a lot of background on both of your pics and what you really, really, really like about them, Candice, I want you to try your best to emotionally manipulate me into really getting on your side. Like, tiny, tiny violins, pull all the heartstrings. What is the emotional argument for New Girl? Something that deeply resonates with you?

So when I think about this show, I think I love it because the show encapsulates all the things that I'm missing from my adult life. I will note that, like I said, I watched New Girl when it was still on, and I was high school or so. And so this show was a projection of what my 20s might be, what my early 30s might be. And I think at the time, I was like, This sounds like such a great deal. This is such a yes-and crew. They all wake up and they're just like, Hey, does anyone have an enemy we need to fight? Does anyone have a job they need to get back? Does anyone have an adult school creative writing student they need to investigate? And I like that they all would just jump up and go. I think that's what I wish I could have in my adult life now. I would be interested in some chaos where I can wake up on a Saturday, have no plans, jump into a Ford Flex, and then just get up to some crazy stuff. That mischief of, I don't know where we're going, but I'm going with you.

That spontaneity. I crave it in a very Schmidt way.

Okay, Ronald, your turn. What's the emotional argument for a community? Something that really resonates with you?

I think Watching this show, the fact that you go on there and they really try to represent everyone. At first, you could look in there and say, Every race is represented in this show. But I think what's more important is when I think about the fact that I'm a 39-year-old man. If I were to go to Greendale Community College, I could be best friends with a 25-year-old person, and we could together be trying to conquer our dreams. We could both be going for the thing or something that was similar to one another and be side by side in doing it. There's such a diversity of thought there. There's such an opportunity for me to learn from them and them to learn from me in all of these different ways. As someone who restarted their career at age 34, I could have easily been at a community college. I could have been in there taking classes, knowing that as an adult, there's all these different levels of you figuring it out over and over and over again, and they're all in one place. They're all in one place figuring it out together. I think that's the beauty of community college, and that's the beauty of community.

Wow. All of the teardrops on the guitar for Ronald, that is... I was like, there's a policy argument for community college. There's the emotional resonance of restarting the career. This show is taking me places that I did not expect I would be going today, so I'm feeling a little shook. Okay, we're moving into round four, which is our lightning round. So quick answers. Give me yes or nos, one-liners. That's where we're going today. Ronald, did community do for community college what Ryan Gosling did for jazz musicians with La La Land? Wow.

God, no.

Do not elaborate. Thank you. Candice, which Schmidt pronunciation has stuck with you more? Lady Gaga, or chutney? Or is there a third option that you would like to share with us?

There's a third option. It's when he says, A white man, typical.

Thank you. Ronald, in community, there's a course guide with classes like Nicolas Cage, Good or Bad. What course from community do you want to take the most?

Who's the boss? That's the examination of Angela and Tony.

Love. Candice, in the spirit of true American, the nonsensical drinking game that the cast of New Girl play throughout the seasons, I want you to name as many American presidents as you can in 10 seconds. Go.

George Washington, John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, Obama, Clinton, Carter, Trump.

That's it. What? Why are you so good at this?

I can tell you why. I can tell you why.

Tell me why my brain was frozen.

When I was in APUS history for credit, my teacher made us sing the Animaniak's President song, and if you could sing it from memory, you would get bonus points. So what did I do? I burned it onto a CD, and every single morning in my Honda Civic with my mother, I played that CD constantly on this 10-minute drive.

Millenials, we are not well. Thank you very much. That was amazing. And the Animaniak's President, thank Thank you. No problem. Okay, team, we are now in our final round. This has been really hard. I'm going to tell you, I think I told you this already. I walked in here feeling very confident of where this was going to go for me. And instead, I'm having these very cozy feelings for 2009, which is also weird. It's also a weird journey to be taken in. Before Before we get to the final round, though, I want to do something a little needling for both of you. What would you tell someone who wanted to watch the other person's show to discourage them to watch it? You're like, Hey, maybe this is not the best use of your time today to watch New Girl. What's that argument?

That the show is called New Girl, and it's based around Jess, and she is the most annoying character of the show. She is the Achilles heel of the show. You could replace her with someone just as vanilla, but all of the big characters around her are doing the work. So if you're watching the show and you're subject to watching any of her plot lines, it's not really that fun, except for the fact that she ends up with nick.

Wow. Brutal. Candice, what's that argument?

pierce is there. He is in your Spanish class. He is in your cafeteria eating your chicken tenders. No, pierce on campus. Pierce is out. Luis Guzmán is in.

I I mean, Louise Guzman is in works for so many things. I'm like, Can Louise Guzman be in here? That would be amazing today. Okay, back to regular schedule programming. Everybody has 30 seconds uninterrupted to make the case for why your show has the best hang. It's our final round. You are neck and neck. Ronald, stay at your case for the ensemble of community being the best hang in television land.

Do you want to go to a place where you belong and you don't have to change anything about yourself? You just show up and you're already ready to go. There's friends that are built in for you. They're chasing their dreams just like you, and you're going to have a good time, and you're going to get to your goals. You should go to Greendale Community College and hang out with the students of Greendale.

Wow. Dang. It had everything. It It was like the voice dropped an octave, didn't even need the whole time, impassion. Wow. Okay, Candice, that's the plea to beat. Do you think you can do it? I think you can do it. Let's see. Okay, all yours.

Do you like to have fun without leaving the comfort of your home? Do you like Damon Wands Jr? Do you love Jake Johnson and Minks? Well, let me tell you, the O-G, Jake Johnson was here because let me ask you a question. Do you actually like your friends right now? Really think about it. Do you have any friends from college who grew up and now you have to live in the real world? And you hate them, but you also can't leave them. And it's like, what if I could bring in new friends? And what if we could have fun and not talk about work, but instead hang out at a bar every day? And the bartender is actually my roommate, and so he gives us free drinks. And we just make fun of other people, but also love each other and break down the tenets of toxic masculinity. If you like that, if you want a good hang and you want someone to have boba with, I think New Girl is a place to be, especially when you are not married and don't have kids like myself.

Round of applause for both of you. That was amazing. Y'all, this is really hard. I did not think it was going to be hard, which is such a testament to both of you and what a fun hang you both are. I just had a blast. So thanks for being a good hang.

Anytime. Thanks for having us.

Okay, I'm going through my notes. This is really, really, really, really hard. I hate to pick winners, but I'm going to say this, and I'm going to say the reason why. Ronald, you are the winner of today's episode. I know, Candice, you feel betrayed, but walk with me. Walk with me. Walk with me, walk with me, walk Walk with me. I know. I know it feels like such a betrayal because here is my reason, and I feel that as a reasonable person, you might agree. I remember watching Community live as it was on the air. It was appointment, television. Then the conversation around the show, the fandom of the show, made it like, I don't know that I want to have this much discourse about something that I just enjoy all the time. I just think that Ronald... One, it was such a hard place to come back for for me. It felt a little more challenging. But I think that your points about the winningness of community college and the cast That just gave me a lot of fuzzy feelings in a way that I was like, Oh, yeah, this is TV at its best.

It really is. Also, I have to say that your argument about pierce, definitely problematic, a bad person, but also that we do need to see that perspective, and that perspective was pushed on a lot. No one in the cast agrees that it's a delight to have him around. I was like, Oh, yeah, that was addressed in the way that the discourse dismissed a lot at the time. But also, yeah, I just got to say I love to have my mind change about something. So for that alone, I will make you today's winner. But I have to say it was very hard. And also, No Girl is a perfect television show.

Thank you.

This was not a walk in the park.

Thank you.

I mean, here's the thing. I did call myself a delusional lizard, so take that at fact. But I respect you, Ronald. I think you have great taste, and so I am willing to bow to the sword of community, even though I guess we revealed that you guys are pierce defenders. Interesting.

No one is defending pierce. Coming from the person defending Zoe DeChanel, who terrorized us with ukulele for how many years?

I mean, hey.

Terrorize us. How many times can you do cuckoo, cuckoo, on ukulele?

This is where I cut everyone's microphone.

This is where I cut everyone's microphone, and it's why millennials are not allowed to have debate about anything. Thank you very much. Thank you both for being here today. This was so, so, so, so, so Thanks again to Candice Lim and Ronald Young Jr. For bringing their beautiful brains onto the show. And thanks to everyone for listening. If you have a strongly held pop culture conviction and you want to hear it debated on the show, let us know in the review section. And if you want to hear more of Candice and Ronald, check out Candice's podcast, IcyMI, and Ronald's new podcast, wait for it. We'll be back next week. There's more pop culture debate club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Carl Tart and Lamar Woods from the best sports movie episode, talking about working at Madame Tussot's Wax Museum. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC. I'm Amina Toussot. The show is produced by me, Joanna Solitaroff, Chrissy Pease, Ramel Wood, and Donny Matias. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neil is VP of New Content. Our SVP of Weekly Content is Steve weekly content is Steve Nelson.

Commissioning Editor for the BBC is Rhianne Roberts. Executive producers are Stephanie Wittleswax and Jessica Cordova-Kramer. Follow pop culture debate club wherever you get your podcast.