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Welcome to raising good humans. I'm Dr. Elisa Pressman. This is the end of my publication week launch. There's just been so much. It's been kind of crazy. I've shared on Instagram. So you see what I've been up to. And I'm sorry I've been pushing so hard and sharing so much and very excited about all of the generous support I've been getting from all of you. I'm so overwhelmed and so grateful. And one person who's been incredibly helpful both at the beginning, from when I was writing the book and she was looking at my drafts to now when I'm selling the book, is this incredibly wonderful colleague, Dr. Lisa Demor, who is a clinical psychologist and she is everybody's go to expert for adolescents. In fact, I love her podcast and I'm actually sharing her episode where we are speaking today on her podcast, but on my podcast, if that makes any sense. And she does this podcast with the wonderful Rena Nynan. I did this episode today with them. Rena Nainan is a reporter and just asks such cool questions and shares her insights about being a mother of teenagers. If, by the way, you have not purchased the five principles of parenting, what are you waiting for?

And also if you haven't, get it on bookshop.org. Because fun fact, you can actually choose the local bookshop you want to purchase it from, but from the comfort of your own home phone or computer, which I just feel like is a win win. Local bookshop. Yay, bookshops. But also don't have to leave the house. Have convenience. Anyway, you can get the book anywhere. I just wanted to do a pitch for local bookshops on bookshop.org. Thank you all for your support. I am overwhelmed. I love you. I wish I could give everybody a huge hug. It means so much to me. And if you do order it on Amazon, write a review, because apparently the reviews matter, just like they matter for the podcast. Okay, let me know what you think of this episode. I know it's a reverse episode because I'm being interviewed, but we're having a different conversation than I had with Jen Garner. And then next week, I am back to normal, where I'm interviewing other people, doing solo episodes, and sharing with you things that are helpful, not stressful.

Elisa, welcome.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Well, and we're thrilled to have you on your actual publication day. I've got your baby right here. So excited to talk with you about it.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all of your help and input.

Well, it's an honor to support work like yours.

See, I was talking about how I dread winter, but books sustained me through winter, and this was like the guide of parenting. I sort of felt like, tell me a little bit. It's the five principles of parenting, is the title. Why did you want to do this book and what do you hope parents.

Get out of it? Well, I wanted to do the book. Well, I didn't even want to do a book because I thought, I don't want to add to anybody's plate. But I also wanted to turn down the volume a little bit on so much. We're just inundated with so much information, particularly when we first have our kids, but we're just inundated. And some of it's useful and some of it is neutral and some of it's downright harmful. So I just wanted to be there for parents who were like, I know that we need to know something. It's not like the chaos of just like, go with your instincts. That just doesn't seem fair for parents. But I did think it's too much. And how can we clear away the noise and just get down to what really matters?

So what do you think, elisa, are the basics that parents need to know to get parenting right?

So, one thing, I mean, I know that that's just a way of saying it, but of course there's no way to get it right. But I do think it would be great if parents could not focus so much on the procedural stuff that makes us so stressed out and really think about the bigger picture. So, like how you're feeding, how you're teaching your child how to sleep, exactly the words you're using when they come home and tell you about something bad that happened at school. Sometimes we get so fixated that we forget that the bigger picture view is that we need to have a close, connected. I mean, I'm saying this to both of you know this very well, but we need to have a close, connected relationship. And within that relationship, in order to have any good relationship, right. You have to reflect on the experiences that you've had in the past, how you were raised, how your partner, if you have a co parent, was raised, what that might mean. And then we have to figure out how to get our own act together in a way like our own emotional act together.

And that's what I think of as regulation so that we can support our kids. And I do think we need the guardrails, the boundaries, the limits. And the idea that we can do that and have repairs when we get it wrong, I think you're covered.

So you said it is sort of a throwaway line, but I want to come back to what you said of, like, you can't get it right. I actually think that is such a critical message because I think so often in the world of parenting guidance, maybe it's not said directly, but indirectly. They're sort of like, if you do this ninja move and that ninja move, then magic parenting is going to be easy, and you're going to enjoy your kids all day. And of course, there's no ninja move that makes parenting easy and makes your kids enjoyable all day.

No, that's so true.

It's so true. And so I love that you're like, enough with that, setting that to the side. And you do offer these five principles of parenting, which you just gestured at. But I want to name them relationship reflection, regulation, rules and repair. And so how did you come to these? What made these rise to the top to you, and how are they useful to families?

Okay, well, first, just to address what you said about not getting it right, I think I did throw that away. And the truth is that if we don't believe. Because I think if you're listening to this podcast, if you're reading our work, if you're thinking about parenting, you are more likely to be a mom. And you are not everybody, but more likely to be a mom, and you are more likely to be a perfectionist. And I don't want to throw away the natural, very developmentally appropriate desire to get it right. Of course, these are the most important human beings in our life, and we want to get it right. But I think the way into really believing that we can't get it perfectly right is to know that it would be a disservice to our kids. It would be a disservice to our kids to grow up with the burden of thinking, my parents got this so right. They never screwed up. I have to get it right. And then you sit with that heaviness and just in general, like, getting out into the world and finding out that either it was all a sham, right, because you were in this bubble of thinking that everything that your parents did was perfect and that that was an attainable goal, or that you really still believe it, and then you just are so hard on yourself for not being good enough.

So I actually think it's a service to blow it with your kids at least 25% of the time. That is not scientific. That specific number.

I'm doing a very great service to my children. I just want you to be clear. Based on those numbers.

The other day, my kids were like, you know, you could be a little less self compassionate. You blow it. They feel like I've really been clinging to that. Okay.

That is hilarious.

I love, you know, that's one of the things, Lisa, I know you taught me was, you've got to say, when you screw up, which I grew up in a household where the parent is God, like the equivalent of, and there's no screw ups, and understanding that sometimes even admitting your mistakes can be good for them to.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's funny, actually. I'm having, like, a flashbacky moment. I'm sitting in my practice office where I do this recording, and years and years ago, I cared for this really fun family with a really spicy adolescent girl, and they were all in here together, and they were doing all the bumps of growing up, and she was often in trouble and deservedly so. But it was so funny. I remember watching them together, and the girl made a really excellent kind of challenge to something that they were doing. And the dad goes, good point.

Good point.

And I was like, that's beautiful. And I actually now do that in my own house. Like, when I get called on the carpet, like, basically on the hour, I get called on the carpet. If my kids. Right. I'll be like, you know what? Good point. And it's such a nice way to rest for a second and hold that idea that you can be disagreeing with me and I can be in agreement with that, and it doesn't have to get heated.

Yeah. And when we do get heated, it mostly is, I would imagine it's the lack of reflection. Like, we don't want to go. You know what? The reason why that pisses me off so much is because it's totally right.

And it's my worst year.

Right.

It's like you're criticizing the thing about me I don't want to be. And here I'm doing it, and now you're calling me out on it, so I'm doubling down on my rightness. But actually, it's probably just because it's so, like, oh, that is not what I wanted to feel. That is not how I wanted to do this.

You have this line in the book that was really a shocker to me. And you say that the tantrums of childhood mirror the tantrums of adolescence. I read that over and over again. Tell me more about this.

Well, I just think we try to figure out each. And I'm a developmental psychologist. I look at change over time. I care about exactly what's going on developmentally, but I think when we get so far into it that we think like, oh, I just have to get through these tantruming, dysregulated states of toddlerhood and then we're going to be good. And it's all about dysregulation and coming back to a place of feeling like, okay, there is no emergency going on. I don't need to sound the alarm bells. And that is no different. When you didn't get to go to the party that you wanted to go to or you didn't get the blue cup and you really were counting on getting the blue cup and your dad gave you the red cup. Both of those things ignite an emergency reaction. Like we go into that same state of fight, flight or freeze and it's the same. And by the way, it's the same with adults. We have our own tantrums. How they look, I mean, should be a bit different. Should.

Ideally, you're sort of so easily spinning off ideas that are so big and so important here, right? Just even to go back for a minute to what you said about, like, if what a kid says really stings, there's a decent chance they actually landed on a tender spot for you. Right? Yeah, I think I mixed metaphors, but we'll figure it out. Or what you're saying about at any age, toddler, teenager, adult, something can feel like an emergency that isn't an emergency. Right. And so just the ways that you've got these simple words, repair regulation, that spin out into these giant ideas and give us so much room to work from more of a distance. I think so much of parenting guidance is so up close that you pull the camera back in a way that can only be helpful in helping families feel calmer.

Yeah, I want that camera back. I want us to pull that camera back because when we get stuck, that's when, first of all, we berate ourselves because we're like, I got that micro moment off and now I'm spending time criticizing myself. And when we criticize ourselves for those micro moments, we are again just sort of making it known that we are expected to be really rigid in making sure that each moment is so exactly, every moment counts and all of that. And I'm not saying that those beautiful moments that you do have don't matter. It's just that we just want them to happen more often than not. But just know that's the best we're getting.

Yeah. Okay, so then, big question. Way back, camera, way back. Your podcast is called raising good humans. What makes good humans? What really matters? Give us a couple of things.

Okay. So, of course I say raising good humans. What is a good human? I think we each know exactly what that means in our heads, but it's different for each of us. And I bet if all three of us chose three to five values that we thought, you know what? If my kid ends up with these values, I've got myself a good human. They will not be the same. We may have probably more aligned values than usual, but if you ask anybody, I never want anyone to think I know what a good human is. And there's this specific formula. I just know that you know what a good human is and you're raising your good human. So for me, that's more. What it's about is having an intention and recognizing that we all come at this from a different place. We all come at this with different values, and we all come at this with a different history. And when we think about that, what does it mean for us to raise a good human? And I never say what my idea of a good human is because I feel like it taints the water or something, like somehow those ideas will be more right.

But I really believe, absent of somebody saying, I hope my child grows up to be selfish and cruel and harmful, and I think there's a pretty wide range. But what I love about the idea of good is that we all know what this means. We just do. There's like an old Stephen Sondheim quote from into the woods. I'm such a Peter geek, and little red riding Hood is learning that nice is different than where that is where I come at this. The idea that for me, we're talking about deep goodness. We're not talking about a polite kid or a kid who's getting it right all the time, but for someone else, it may very well be that one of the core values for them is being really polite. And that's okay.

Rena, as Elisa is talking, I'm trying to think of what are the three or four words I would say, were you thinking that, too? What I would want my kids to.

I love. I love that. What would you say, Lisa?

Well, this is just thinking about it just now. So kind, actually. So not nice, but kind. Useful, for sure. Useful is on my list. And then I started to think about words like aware and honest. But I'd really want to think it through some more. But I love what you're saying Elisa, it's actually quite a good exercise. I can almost picture it in a family. Like, actually thinking through, like, this sounds such a strange way to say it. What are the target outcomes here in terms of the phrase?

So what are the target outcomes? It's really just your family mission statement.

Yeah, I would say compassionate, kind. In a world that feels it's lost all compassion in some moments over the past six months, how do I instill more compassion and kindness? Because then I'll take whatever the third is as a wild card that anybody wants to give me. But those two, I feel the world is on short supply of these days.

Agreed. I think about this. When you find whatever those core values are, the target outcomes, whatever that is, when you have older kids, you can say to them, what do you think I value as a good human? And what do you think this family values? And it's so interesting because if your kids have something completely different than what you thought, that is great information. Like, okay, well, if I value compassion and kindness and a wild card, but compassion and kindness didn't show up as what they think is, like, top, top. Okay, so what are we doing here? Let's figure that out. And it's not a criticism. It's just like, figure out if. Is it really compassion, kindness and wild card, or did they tap into something that's so important to you, but you just didn't know it or didn't even want to admit it? But once we can see, like, you know what, as it turns out, I do care about whatever it is, and this is how we want to cultivate that in this household. I think it can be really illuminating. And then when your kids are younger, it's more like it gives them the North Star that will eventually be internalized.

I love that.

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Goodness about instilling sort of that sense of what you want in your child. But you also talk about this concept of the martyr mom. What is it, and why do we need to be rid of this concept?

Don't you feel like, as mothers, there's just this? How many times? I'm sure I'm not the only one where you show up and do something. Maybe you baked something. Maybe you showed up to an activity that no one else showed up to. Maybe you offered to host something. And you're told, like, you're the best mom. Like, oh, my God, you're a better mom than I am. Or you're so amazing as a mom, and it's always like, because you've done this service or you've been at every practice or something that feels like, come on, why is that the measure of good mothering? What is it about that kind of thing versus your relationship with your child and the connection that you have and the way you respond in moments and the laughing, all of the stuff that feels like it's about you and your kid. The martyr mom feels much more about how we are viewed. Like how the world says we're good mothers. And I think that bothers me because, I don't know, I've said many times and I'm joking, but I'm kind of not joking where I'm just like, I don't know, I'm a terrible mother.

I just did, blah, blah, blah. And I think it feels good to hear from people what a sacrifice you've made in the service of your kids. I think it feels like, okay, then I must be doing something right. But I think it gets out of hand. And now here we are, misunderstanding that not taking into account our own selves and our own needs is somehow a service to our kids.

What do you think needs to change on that concept? Like, we've got these martyr moms who are just sacrificing everything and believe that's the right way forward. How do we change that mindset and that thinking?

I think the only way into changing mindset is to believe that it's better for your kids. I don't think we're doing anything for ourselves if we don't believe it's better for our kids.

So true.

And so I think, here's a thought that I wonder about. If you're the center of your child's universe, what does that feel like for them? Maybe it feels good, but maybe it also feels like, oh, my God, without me doing this, this and this, I don't know that my parent is going to be particularly satisfied, happy, fulfilled. So I'm going to go off to college and what will they do? I remember the first time I left my kids for the weekend. No, I just got that wrong. They left me for the weekend. They went with their dad and they were so worried I was going to be lonely. And I was like, I think I've done a disservice that I'm constantly around. Like, of course you need to be around more than. More often than not, but that I'm so around that they think that I don't have any joy when they're not around. That just doesn't do them any favors. So I think the way in is to have us just think about if I'm making you the sun, moon and stars, then how do you feel? And what burden might that put on the child.

That's the only way I can think of, because I don't think we're doing it for ourselves.

This is so helpful. And it actually gets at something I struggle with tremendously in my own parenting, which is that I do a lot of speaking. And my speaking engagements are booked six to eight months in advance. And the schedule for the school concerts comes out about four weeks in advance. And so it has routinely happened in my parenting that I have missed concerts. And there's a part of me that I will never be able to get rid of. I feel terrible about this. I feel terrible about this and I hate this. And as you're talking about the martyr mom thing, it feels like the exact antithesis of what a great, sacrificing everything parent would do. And yet, Elise, I have fought against self flagellation in front of my daughters, and I've done it for a few reasons. One is I'm trying to raise feminists. And so part of what I feel like is this is my career, and this is an unavoidable reality of my career. And when you have your career, you will run into unavoidable realities. And I don't want you to feel bad about them. As a parent, I'm trying to set that up.

But then the other thing, and you're just making me feel better about something that has felt really hard, really hard in my parenting, is that we are very fortunate to be a mile from my in laws, and we have also my husband's sister and brother and their families live in town. And so when I'm not at the concert, there are still several family members there. And so it does let me recede into the back a little bit in terms of the universe of adults who care for my kid, which we're just lucky, and I know that. And so I will say, like, I'm not going to be there, but dad, and sometimes your sister and then your grandparents and your aunts coming over, and then I'll watch it with you on video. It has been an incredible tension to both try to be matter of fact about it, because I do feel that that is probably the most useful thing for my girls. But never I wish, I don't feel matter of fact about it, and I never will.

I feel the same way. I hear you. And also when I'm hearing you talk about it, I'm thinking they're going to know how to do a concert without you there. Now, of course, it's so awesome to have you there, but it's also great to know like, I just did that and I did it and I didn't have the need. I love it. I'm sure it's better when you're there. But what an empowering feeling to know, like, I'm not constantly looking for your reaction to how I just did.

Wow, that's powerful. I never thought of it that way ever. I'm so glad, Lisa, you shared that story, and, elisa, that you put it into that perspective, because I never thought about that. Us being there has an effect on their development.

Meanwhile, believe me, I constantly feel guilty about. But, and I just recently got stuck in traffic and missed my daughter's last volleyball game because I had a work thing and I budgeted exactly how long it would take, but I did not account for Los Angeles traffic. And she was so, like, I mean, I felt much worse because she was so cool about it. But I also knew that that was a moment where I had to say, like, I can imagine that hurt, and that was disappointing. But I also know that in general, that I do not recommend, although it was a mistake, I move on, whatever. But I definitely was like, oh, why did I do this, dar? But I do think I remember once when my kids were younger and they were swimming and they kept looking at me and wanting me to give feedback, and I was like, I need them to not need so much feedback from me. I really want them to just enjoy. They're just swimming. And part of it was that it was siblings and they wanted my attention and all of that stuff. But I remember that moment because I was just like, what happens when I exit this space?

Are we going to enjoy ourselves? Are they going to have a better time if I stop being an audience so much? And I think that's a little bit about what can help with this martyr mom stuff, is let's not just be this audience member that is constantly there, because, yes, it's wonderful to behold these beautiful, developing humans, but it's also wonderful to let them know that they can do this without that.

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Okay, we got some questions from Listeners. This could be a 14 hours podcast. And I do want to run some of these by you because they are just fantastic. We let them know that we had an expert like you coming. So this gets to regulation questions, and it's a big, broad question, but when kids emotions seem out of whack, what should we do?

That's the question.

That's the question. Like, their emotions are out of whack.

All on you, Lisa, tell us.

It's funny to do this podcast with lisa because I'm like, you know, but okay, so regulation. Well, one thing. So if I pull out one sliver of regulation, I would say co regulation, because I don't think we talk about it as much. And to go back to an earlier question I never answered, the way these ideas rose to the top for me is that they are so important to the science of child development. It's not like I made up regulation. So co regulation, I think, is the biggest untapped key to regulation. So when kids emotions are out of whack, really figuring out how to first make our nervous systems, put our nervous systems in a state that is not an alarm system going off and calling for the ambulance and the fire trucks and what else comes the police and really getting us to a place of, I can figure out how to be there for my child because I'm not dysregulated myself. So I'm going to co regulate and give them, like, in a sense, they can borrow my nervous system because it's not available to them in full. Theirs is completely out of whack.

And I love that because I chose everything that I put in the book as things that we can control. I do not like things that parents are supposed to do that are not in their control. This does not feel helpful. And we are in control of regulating ourselves. So that is something that we can do for our kids and that capacity to lend them our nervous system when theirs is out of whack is over time, it certainly doesn't. They don't just look at you and feel better, but over time. The message is, this is not an emergency. And Lisa talks about this, how they're looking to us to know if we meet them, where they are in this, what felt emergency. That is scarier than if we meet them with compassion and understanding, but without the message. We did need to have all the alarm bells going off. I think that that is a bigger key than anything else.

What you do so well, and, you know, this is what I just admire and always aspiring to do myself, is that you take these very dense bodies of research. Co regulation is a giant and wildly important body of research. And you just bring it down to this. When your kid is having a five alarm fire, your job is to look as calm as you can, because that will help them realize they can get themselves through this, because you're not terrified. So it can't be that bad just to just ground it in these tiny and multiple interactions that we have with our kids a week. It's just so beautiful.

I was thinking, because I have a crazy alarm system, when you set your alarm up, you can punch in, like, how long? It gives you that warning beep. That's like a slow beep to let you know, like, in 20 seconds, if you don't punch in the passcode, that alarm is going off, and there will be. All of the police will be here, et cetera. And I remember hearing that beep and just feeling like that is that moment where I can regulate myself and then my kids can borrow some of it. Is that moment before an alarm goes off, where there's a beep, there's a warning, there's something that happens, and you can feel it. And I feel, like, my face getting hotter and I feel my fingers clenching, and I know that that is just the moment before I'm going to lose my mind and my alarm is going off. I just have observed over time we can all do that. Like, what are those things that you know are happening so that you can punch in the passcode so that the alarms don't go off. And I felt like that was a really easy way for me to understand co regulation and regulation.

And if my kids don't remember the passcode, sometimes they forget the passcode. It's hard. It's numbers. They're young. And I remember it. I can always remember it. That isn't in my capacity. It goes off sometimes the wrong way.

On account of us being humans raising.

We're human. Yes, exactly.

This is just so great. I cannot thank you enough. We got so many questions from everyone. I want to end on this one really quickly, if you don't mind. Someone asked about what do you do when you go from having lots of control as a parent to a lot less control? How do you deal with that? What should parents keep in mind?

Because of age. Because of age.

As they get older, kids are growing up and get their opinions and their busy schedules.

I think that is where it's so funny. I've gotten so deep into these five principles that I keep going back to them, even though that is not my intention. To constantly grab hold of them. But they do make it easier.

But I think actually, I think it's easier for you. It's also easier for everyone else. I mean, I think putting things into categories, giving them broad principles. Go for it, Alisa. Do not hold back.

I really have made this book work for me here, but I think that reflection is very helpful when you imagine what is going on with this natural, evolving development of freedom and what does it mean for me and how much of it did I get and how much of it did I yearn for and how much of it meant I don't love my parents? And how much of it meant I love my parents so much. But I'm just evolving. And that that's part of our process of raising kids. And then still, no matter what, they still need. This principle doesn't get so much attention, but rules. It's just figuring out how much freedom is acceptable and important because we know the science tells us autonomy supportive parenting. If there was a gold standard, it would be autonomy supportive parenting. Right. And you need to match your child's developmental, both development, age wise and just development that is happening for their personal self and their temperament, and think, let kids do for themselves what they can already do. Which means, let me have a look. What does this child, what can they do? What are they capable of?

And then guide and encourage them to do things they can almost do. And you model for them the things they can't yet do. And I don't think that changes whether they're toddlers or teenagers. We have to figure out, what can they already do that I can sit comfortably with? And that is a hard question. But chances are, if they can do it, then we can focus on our relationship and we can focus on sitting back and enjoying that. They've got this and move on. Know, like, you're not going anywhere. You're just widening. What's the metaphor that you use, Lisa, with the pool?

Oh, the swimming pool, yeah. The teenagers are like to. They don't think about the word. The swimmer is the teenager. The water is the world, the parent, the family is the pool that holds it all together. By the time they're adolescents, they don't even want to think about the sides of the pool. They want to be in the water until they need us. And then suddenly they come to us.

Right. Until they need us. It's not a sea. They do come back to us, but it's just coming to terms with that freedom, making sure that that freedom isn't the extreme of, like, I guess that's that. Go forth. I mean, they're still home. They're still with us. They still need a little bit. We just have to have that autonomy support in mind of let them do for themselves what they can already do and enjoy some of it. It's like, actually, I just had my daughter go take my other daughter to a class, and I was, like, really nervous about it because she just got her license. But I also, once I got past that, was like, wait a minute.

This is fantastic.

And it feels good for the kid, too, right? I mean, I think this is the thing. It feels good for them. It feels good for us. Elisa, here, let me just tell you what you have done that I am so grateful for. Instead of telling people how to parent, because we talk about this all the time on this podcast, you can't tell people how to parent, right. There's too many variables that are too specific to any one family. What you have done is you have distilled research going back decades and across very many categories of research into ways to think about how to parent. Like how to think about what it is we're here for, what it is we're trying to accomplish. And that is, in my world, that's the way to do it. Right. Here's what we know. Here's what can inform your thinking. And you can use this to refine but never perfect this wonderful enterprise of.

Having a. Oh, that means so much to me. That means so much to me. Also, I love refine, but never perfect. It means so much to me, obviously, because it's you and I love. I feel like I know you because I listen to you all the.

Oh, this was such a joy. Elisa, we are so grateful. And can I just tell you, we're going to have to have her back on or do some other session because there's so much here in this book. I want to talk to you about sleep as well. And there's a whole thing about friends and siblings, and I just can't say.

Go get the book.

Today is her publishing date, and it's out today. It's called the five Principles of parenting. Dr. Lisa Pressman, so grateful you could make the time and help us kick off the new year in the right way.

Thank you.

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