You are listening to the Reality Steve podcast with your host Reality Steve. He's got all the latest info. And behind the scenes juice on Tatia season of The Bachelorette and interviewing some of your favorite reality stars. Now, here's a reality, Steve. What's up, guys? Welcome to podcast number two 11 Post Reality. Steve, thank you all for tuning in.

Got a great show for you this week. One of my favorites. And I love bringing back I want to say this is her third or fourth time on the show.

I believe it might even be five. Gosh, I need to go back and check anyway. Former bachelor contestant briefly on VIP, it's Jacqueline Trumbull, we'll get to her momentarily. And before we get started, today is a big day in reality, Steve, podcast history. Because on December. Fourth twenty sixteen was my very first podcast, so the first Thursday in December, four years ago was the very first podcast I did. So this is technically, even though it's December 3rd today, it's technically the anniversary of when I started this podcast.

It's crazy to think.

For years, I've done a podcast every week, a couple of times in the beginning, I did two in a week, which was just ridiculous when I was doing the he said she said podcast. With first Charleen and then with Ashley. A couple of times I was you know, when we leased those per week, I was doing two podcast's a week, but yeah. For years, it's kind of crazy when you think about it. Also, in terms of, Ashleigh, as I wrote yesterday, I don't know what the status of the grand live shows that we do every week is going forward, I can pretty much guarantee you I'm not going to do on the rest of the calendar year, all of December, I'm going to take off.

And then I just don't feel right doing it without actually not saying that anybody couldn't co-host and just fill in and gladly step aside once Ashleigh is ready. I just don't feel up for it, to be honest with you. And it's nothing against any possible co-host.

I just I feel this is something that it's Ashley and I started it during quarantine. It's been a lot of fun and I just feel are doing it without her. So definitely through the end of the year won't be any Instagram lives when the new year rolls around and Matt season starts. We'll see. But this is all up to Ashley when she wants to come back. I have no idea and I'm not going to pressure her. I'm not even going to ask her.

When she feels ready to come back, she'll tell me. And if she never feels ready to come back, I'm fine with that. And then I'll determine from there. So. If you can help at all, if you can donate it all, go to at Alexis Bivy her sister on Venmo or PayPal, if you feel like donating and helping out, because Ashley has been such a great friend and a great co-host, then, yeah, I would I would donate if I were you, I, I donated.

And hopefully, you know, this list certainly helps and anything can help in the situation that she's in because it's just awful.

So I appreciate anybody who has donated and I appreciate you if you plan on donating in the future. Other things to talk about within the franchise. What else has been going on? Obviously, I revealed some stuff this week. The men tell all. We kind of have an idea now of when it is airing. What we do know, it's going to air on Monday, the 14th, which means there are three episodes that air after the Mentallo episode airs, which is very different from past seasons, because usually the men tell all airs the week before the finale when there's only two guys left.

But we know as a reported, none of those final four guys, Ivan, Brendan, Zach or Ben appeared at the Mentallo. And as I reported yesterday, only nine guys attended total. And I gave you six of them and I think. Blake Moines is definitely one of my I can't believe I left that name off, I knew he had gone and knowing now that Riley lasts till top seven. My guess is Riley is probably the other guy there.

And I think Jason. So those are your nine, the six I gave you yesterday in yesterday's column, which I guess I could pull it up real quick, uh, real quickly.

So the six that I know that were there. Were. Jason Yoseph, Deema, Ed Bennett and Noah, I can tell you that Blake Moines was definitely there. I'm pretty sure Riley was there and Jason was there. Those are your nine guys that were on the Mentallo.

But yeah, it airs Monday, December 14th. That's our first Monday episode of the season. So next week, the 8th. And then we have Monday, the 14th, which is Mentallo, and then Tuesday the 15th and then Monday the 14th. All right. Monday the 21st and Tuesday the 22nd. And then we're done with Tatia season. But yeah. So that's the deal for men.

Tell all if you want to go check out. You know what I said about Easy. That's in yesterday's column as well. As for the Tatia thing, I'll just reiterate. I know that it certainly looks like an engagement ring and her picture, was it done on purpose? Was it done accidentally? Did she accidentally spoiler season, whatever the case may be? All I know is what I've been told, and I have not been told that she got engaged at the end of this thing.

And I don't know why she would be wearing an engagement ring if that's the case.

Could be a ruse. Could not, I guess. Well, I guess we've got three weeks to find out, but I'm doing what I can to find out on my end. And I will update you accordingly if I do find anything out. But, you know, I'm hearing some things. And when I saw that picture with Tatia that everybody sent to me like, oh, my God, you spoiled roses.

And look, she's got an engagement ring on and people were convinced that it must be Zack because of you know, people were saying to me that the other three guys in her final four were accounted for this weekend. Zack was the only one to not post anything. So that must mean she was him.

Not must mean anything. It could mean it's just speculative at this point. All I know is this that's not what I was told and. We kind of just go from there. I've not heard that, so we'll see we'll see what happens, but I don't really have much else to get to this week.

Let's just jump right into it with one of my favorites. You know her from our season. You know her briefly from Bachelor in Paradise. And now she has a podcast. That she does called a little help for our friends, it's Jacklin trouble with podcast number 211. All right, let's bring her in, she you first saw her on R.E. season of The Bachelor, then she briefly appeared on Paradise. I couldn't even tell you what season because it was not memorable.

And I'm sure she wants to forget it.

And then you can now hear her on her own podcast, a little help from our Friends podcast. She's also F.P. Santangelo SBF. It's Jacqueline Trumble. Jacqueline, how are you? Yeah, I'm not sure why I come on this show.

If you're going to keep mentioning my paradise here, it was literally, what, two days you were there and filming three maybe.

Oh, I wasn't even there three days. I don't even know if I was there in 48 hours. Really. It was that short. That's right. Yeah. You came in. Who did you end up going on it? Because everyone that comes in comes in with a day card.

Who did you end up going on a date with, Kenny King or Kenny King?

That's right. And then he just ended up picking somebody else at the Rose ceremony, correct?

Yeah, OK, that was it. That was a fragile paradise.

You know, my bachelor appearance wasn't so bad, you know?

I mean, your bachelor appearance was way longer.

Um, so, OK, let's let's back up here before we get into any of that, and let's start out with, um, you had an anniversary that passed recently.

I did. One year. Put it on your Instagram of you and your boyfriend. Been together a year now. So I for people that don't know, why don't you kind of explain how that came to be and what happened? What how it came to be that we lasted a year or how bad or not how you lasted a year, but how you guys met and the story behind you guys meeting and anything else that may be interesting about it?

OK, well, I saw him OK.

I mean, I guess what you're probably getting at is that he's a professor at Duke. I'm a grad student. Oh, OK.

So you got me. That's what I was trying to get out of things. But I mean, you're allowed to say that now, right?

I mean, this isn't like or you not allowed to say that you have to edit this out. No, no, no.

I mean, we. Yeah, no, I mean, I was told that we went through all the proper channels.

A lot of people ask about this and I stay relatively quiet, which is why I mean, at this point, it's just a tradition that I come on your show and you see the scary questions when the question it was like, hey, those guys, I'm just wondering, I was just kind of leading you down that road, down that road to see if you'd go there.

And you did.

Yeah. I mean, he he gave a like a talk.

And one of my classes that he was kind of talking about, like the road to psychology and some particulars about himself and I thought he's cute and super young looking, and he had a lot of details in his background that I thought were compatible.

We had a lot of similar interests, basically.

And so I, I really like being the pursuer in relationships.

Like, I find that super fun. I've never really gone for a guy that's pursued me usually. Like if I have to be pursued, I'm not interested in the first place.

So I usually the aggressor.

So I kind of like has to plan the cohort.

We're all very excited about this and split in his split in his dreams because he I found out he did intellectual humility research, which I'm very interested in, because basically what that is, is, you know, you might think that you have really good ideas and that you're really smart.

But you also have and I know that people who disagree with you also have really good ideas and are really smart and you know, you don't know everything and think that that's something we should probably encourage these days of.

So I found out who's doing that work. And so I just asked him about it and thought, you know, worst case, like maybe I could do some research on this guy and then we just super hit it off and had kind of a soul connection and just had so much in common. And we were able to talk for hours. And that made it really easy to kind of figure out that there was attraction and interest there before we ever actually dated or kissed or anything.

So we looked at what the policy was and we went straight to H.R. before anything happened. And they were awesome. Like, I never knew that I would like administrators so much, but they were really thoughtful.

And we they took it all the way up.

I mean, we were we were talking to Deans and they created a management plan just to make sure that there's no sort of ethical violations. We can never do research together. We can never be in the same class together.

He can never be on any kind of like a committee, like my dissertation committee or anything like that.

We're also in two different kinds of psychology, so there's not really any overlap anyway.

He's a cognitive psychologist.

So, yeah, I mean, Duke was cool with it.

Obviously there was some gossip and drama, but we did, you know, we did we acted in accordance with the politics policies.

I was going to say what a professional way to go about handling a relationship as opposed to just sneak around or something.

Because I think I mean, honestly, I think most people in your situation probably would just be like, hey, let's just, you know, bang it out and just not tell anybody, you know? I mean, that's the way I think most people would handle this was a well, you not I say college kids, but you're not a college kid, right?

I mean, I'm. Yeah, I'm twenty nine. He's thirty eight, you know, I mean, he's usually one of the youngest faculty.

I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions on workplace dating in particular this kind of dating.

Yeah. But the reality is, is it's so common. And if you make it, if you prohibit it, people are still going to do it. Because the other reality is that especially in something like academia, I mean, you just you're there all the time and you're working all the time and it really becomes your own community. And I mean, there are studies showing that even just proximity can increase attraction. So I think there's some statistic that says that a huge number of marriages start in the workplace.

And it's because, you know, I mean, we're both psychologists. We have a ton in common right there, head. We're around each other.

You know, theoretically, like we didn't have that much overlap and we didn't have any overlap in terms of classes or anything like that. But, you know, I mean, he's in the community and everything.

And so it's kind of like it's kind of just normal.

And if you allow it, then you can go through the proper channels and make sure that there's no there's no violations, there's no power dynamic or anything like that.

And if you don't, I mean, I just I can't imagine that people aren't going to hook up anyway. Yeah, no, totally.

And like I said, you handled it correctly. And I don't think you said because of the parameters that have been set where, you know, can't be taking the same class as him and stuff like that, it makes a little more sense that way now, knowing that that guys are doing it wrong. You're just two adults that are having a relationship. But because it is student teacher, it's like, OK, you can have this, but yes, you got to follow, which aren't.

You know, the other thing that I think is really good about what Duke did by allowing us to have this relationship and doing it the right way, is that if they if they didn't and people still form these romantic connections, there's no real way that they can have a real meaningful, deep relationship.

It's probably going to keep things on a. To a level, because eventually, you know, you can't hide a year long relationship, it's impossible.

So then what it does is it actually, I think, puts students at a huge disadvantage where I mean, I'm not saying this is rampant, although I have heard a lot of stories from other people about it being pretty intense.

But I think the last thing you want is for a student having a sexual relationship with a professor where there's no you know, there's no respect. There's there's no support from other people.

Like I, I you know, my adviser signed this plan and I you know, he kind of he's in on the relationship.

I let him know how it's going. Like, I have tons and tons of support and so does Paul. So, yeah, it's I don't know. It's nice.

Well, I think the other thing would be if a student because when we hear about stuff like this and gosh, even when it's sensationalized in television shows and movies, it's usually a married professor that's banging his student, you know. Yeah. And it's always male teacher and female student for the most part. So that's why this is totally different. Plus, you're older. This isn't an 18 or 19 year old freshman and sophomore in college and whatnot.

So good for you. Oh, I think you and I. Which leads me to my next thing with which is fairly new in your life. And that is your podcast. A Little Help from our Friends podcast. And you're doing it with one of your I don't want to see it technically a coworker or how would you describe it?

Just tell everybody how you know your podcast, how it got started and kind of what you guys are attacking on your podcast.

Sure. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to talk about it, because it really means everything. Everything's a lot to me. I think it's a great little podcast and it's actually called A Little Help for our friends.

And I keep saying from right that well, because it's the song lyrics that got it from and.

Yeah. But it's a little help for our friends. And there was a lot of mental health podcasts out there and we know that.

But this one is aimed at the loved ones of people who have mental health struggles because a situation that I found myself in a lot I mean, I have you know, I have a family member with extreme substance abuse.

I've dated men with anxiety disorders, with personality disorders.

I you know, I friends with depression. I've had depression. So there's like mental illness is really kind of a community issue. It's a it's a systems issue. And it's not just the one person experiencing it. It's everybody around them who is also kind of experiencing it vicariously. And it can feel so lonely and frustrating to watch someone you love suffer and not know how to help. And it can feel really lonely and frustrating and painful and scary to, you know, sometimes be in a relationship with someone who has severe mental illness and not know how to look out for yourself and not know how to set boundaries.

So basically, we bring in experts. We give because skills, usually from a therapy called dialectical behavior therapy, which is a behavior for a therapy for borderline personality disorder. We talk about personal experiences. We have guests with personal experience, with mental illness. And we kind of we try to help you understand these illnesses better and how to help better and how to help yourself better and show up for yourself. Kind of like a put your own oxygen mask on before helping others approach.

Well, that's I mean, you guys have tackled a lot of different topics. Like you said, the one that really that I listen to. I think I have a listen to it from beginning to end yet. But I did start and I was really interested in and then I got sidetracked and I haven't gone back to it. I will. But it was the empathy one. And, yeah, it kind of played a role in, you know, talking about this show and talking about The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, how people.

Well, essentially are not the most empathetic people, great people in the world, people aren't as empathetic towards others as they should talk about that one a little bit and I don't know, kind of throwing your experience on the show and what you dealt with post show.

I don't even know where to start with this one, so. Well, first of all, we kind of break down what empathy is.

A lot of people hear empathy. And if you can hear compassion or sympathy, so they think it's like someone who's empathetic is really nice or what empathy actually is, is it's more like a three pronged process.

There is emotional empathy, which is when you and you can kind of feel what another person's going through. So like like let's say this last episode, you know, when Ben was talking about his bulimia, I you know, I really felt that sadness really hit me in the chest. Or when Riley got when he was talking about when he was presenting his self-portrait, you know, I almost cried like it was you really feel that kind of emotionally. And so you're kind of mirroring the experience that they're having.

And the second is called cognitive empathy, which is when you can understand what another person's going through.

So, you know, if someone is you know, if someone's doing something that you disagree with, cognitive empathy would help you understand, like given his experience and given what he's gone through in life and, you know, given who he is, this what he's doing makes sense. I understand why he's doing it, even if I don't agree with it.

So this cognitive doesn't have anything to do with understanding it because you went through it yourself. It's just putting yourself in that person's shoes.

Yeah. I mean, going through it yourself can definitely help. Like, I think that's a lot of a lot of times where cognitive empathy kind of starts. It's like, oh, you know, when I was in this when I was in his shoes, I acted like this. And so it makes sense that he's doing it as well.

But you don't necessarily have to have, you know, been in that in that position.

You know, I've never had an addiction.

But my family member who does have an addiction, you know, I understand that she she doesn't have control over certain behaviors in her life, that she lies a lot, that, you know, all these things happened because her circuitry has been hijacked and her coping skills have been hijacked.

And so, you know, I can just kind of I can cognitively understand that even if I've never been through it myself.

Yeah. And then the third process is just emotion, regulation. So, you know, if you have a really highly affect empathy and and your you're feeling the emotions of the person, sometimes that can kind of hijack you too much and then you're not able to extend help and compassion. So the third kind of emotion regulatory process kind of allows you to dampen your own emotional response so that you can then say, hey, I see you, I know what you're going through and I want to help.

You know, you mentioned a family member who has addiction, and I don't I don't know if you've ever have you have you dove into this on your podcast or talked to me publicly?

I have.

I'm not going to say who. Yeah, this that's for respect to her privacy.

But yeah. And I don't you don't need to say who, but can you talk about the type of addiction? Only because I think you and I have talked about this. I can't remember I don't even remember who it is.

You probably did tell me, but I forget, um, but the actual the what they're addicted to. After seeing Zach's story on the show this week, I think it's somewhat similar. Am I right? She's addicted to alcohol.

OK, and Zach had alcohol, but has ended up turning more into drugs and prescription.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't think she has a pill addiction.

I don't you know, that's never been that's never really come out. But who knows? You know, alcoholics lie and they hide. Yeah. Because they're super shamed. So.

Well, that was the thing that kind of triggered it for me. Was this the similar thing when Zach was telling Tatia his story was and this article that came out in 2014 that I tweeted out and I put in yesterday's column, I put it again and and the day before it's column that kind of chronicled Zach's.

Depths that he fell to when he was in this drug addiction was the amount of lying he did to get drugs and thinking about, oh my God, I got to go on a honeymoon and how am I to get drugs to another country? Yeah, and the same thing.

Like, there is so much lying involved in it.

And like you said, you just kind of lose your sense of, I would think, who you are doing something like that. Yeah, I mean, you know, there was a 10 year period where I barely talked to her sober, and it's really unusual experience to be talking to someone who's clearly wasted and they're telling you that they haven't had a drop of alcohol in six months.

I mean, you know, it's like you just I'm lucky that I'm not the one who has to be the one getting her help. I try to help, you know, but it's not my responsibility as much.

So I can kind of have a little bit of a distance there.

Like, I don't have to be the one constantly monitoring how far into the how far into the alcoholism. Did you know? Did you know right away or was there years that went by where you had no idea that they were, I guess, a functioning alcoholic or maybe they weren't even functioning? Maybe they were. It was obvious every time.

I don't really know. I mean, I think. I think there were a few years where it worked for her, her husband was a heavy drinker, but never lost control.

It was just sort of a drinking culture.

And so, you know, it was kind of it's kind of easy to disguise alcoholism when drinking is just part of the part of the social experience.

And so a lot of just like alcohol use ramped up, but. There's just there just became such a sharp difference where then it was like she's sleeping half a day and her personality has completely changed and she doesn't look the same.

And yeah, and then it's like, oh, this isn't even something you can remotely ignore.

Well, when you heard Zach telling his story today, did any of it resonate with you? Did you were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, totally.

Yeah. I mean, I have Zach on my book at which it's.

Yeah. I mean it's it's what I really like about Zach and what I felt. I wish that I don't know, I wish I had been a little bit more a conversation around it.

But what I really like and respect about Zach is that he was so far deep in it and then he got out like recovering from this shit is so hard.

And he did it like he he recovered. And now he's using his life to help other people. I mean, that just takes so much willpower, so much strength.

And, um, it's really I mean, it's a hard it's a hard addiction to it's a hard disorder to come back from because it really kind of like requires you a little bit.

I mean, the brains of alcoholics and addicts, it's like they I wish I remember the actual neurobiology of it, but, you know, they start not being able to choose long term reward over instant gratification.

Yeah. And so, you know, I mean, they start I start lying to people because they can't even they can't choose the long term reward of sustaining social relationships over the short term gratification of I need to get this fixed. And so everything you see them do is for short term gratification. And that just has I mean, it just it changes how they are able to cope.

It changes how they're able to socialize. They lose relationships, they lose employment. Sometimes they lose freedom. They're incarcerated. Which is why I'm so against the drug war. I'm so I'm so against incarcerating people for this so it doesn't work.

So, I mean, he just he over he he climbed a mountain and now he's helping others.

Yeah.

To say the least. And eight years sober. And, you know, it's great for him, but it's still I mean, I don't know anybody.

Well I should say that I do know one person, but not enough to where I could really feel comfortable speaking too much on it. But what you hear all the time from anybody is it's a day to day thing, like you could be sober for twenty years and all it takes is one slip up and you could go right back into that hole. Exactly.

And that's what I've been experiencing in my family member. She's on the path to recovery, but that path involves constant setbacks.

You know, you take 20 steps, you take 40 steps back and then so it's you know, it's hard to watch.

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Steve, to save twenty percent off your order of fifty dollars or more. Did you ever think this show would I mean, they've tackled stuff in the past and I kind of brought this up today and I'm a little like, I don't know.

I'm almost look, I give Zach and Ben all the credit in the world for what they've been able to overcome, Ben with an eating disorder for 15 years and bulimia for 10, and Zach being as bad as he was and as.

A poor of a position, as he was in years ago, and how how deep he got into his drug and pill addiction and to be able to get out of it, I'm just a little bit more put off by the show aspect of it, which is every season we get people with these back stories.

And it's almost like if you're just a regular person who grew up, you know, whatever, middle class family, no issues. You didn't have divorced parents. You didn't have drug or alcohol abuse somewhere in your family. And you're you're happy with the way things are in your life now. You almost come across as boring on the show.

So, you know, and it sucks for those people because if you because you know how the show is and you know how producers get with tragic backstories there, anybody that has a tragic backstory, whether you think you're going on the show and I'm like, I'm not going to share that you 1000 percent, well, they're going to get you to do it. I don't care if they have to lie to you.

They're going to get you to do it. And it's just I don't know, I'm just getting tired of it. And I don't want to come across as I'm tired of Zach and and and Ben this season. I'm just.

Tired of so many sob stories, you know, yeah, I mean, it's it's a balance because I really like how we're like, obviously I'm going to be happy if we're bringing mental health to the public consciousness, you know, like, I think it's a great service. And I like knowing more about these men. And I think what I don't love so much is that someone who's healthy and, you know, has had a healthy, you know, the boring person you were talking about.

Yeah. They're not actually boring. It's just when we go on dates, what we usually do instead of trading life stories and we do some of that, but normally we trade perspectives. And I don't see a lot of perspective trading on the show like I don't.

And this is why it can be kind of frustrating when, like mutation's a fine lead. But I have no idea who she is. I don't know what she believes. I don't know, you know, what she thinks about because we don't ever get to see that.

It's just like then tells his story, Tatia has some one sentence long response and then we move on and it's like, OK, so you just made then there is soul and then what did we learn? And like what did we learn about the connection between these two people?

So, yeah, it is a little bit of a parade of boring people's souls. And I don't know, I don't have to do that. So I don't know how it feels to be that be in that position.

And if it feels like you've been exploited or not, because it is for viewers, you know, because I mean and that immediately makes the viewers latch on to certain contestants like, oh, my gosh, I love because, you know, last week. What was your opinion of her conversation with Ivan last week?

What do you think of that?

I mean, I thought, oh, well, first of all, I mean, I thought Ivan was like a really thoughtful and really interesting person. And I thought I was, like, really grateful to see him give his perspective from her.

You know, I thought it was interesting because she gave a primarily emotional response.

I mean, she was overwhelmed. She was crying for a long time. And so there we saw it was some kind of we saw some connection. And at least I mean, like I think we saw, you know, we saw some real connection.

We saw two people who have been hurt sitting in that pain. But it's not like we were going to get an extended back and forth that really, like, allowed us to learn a lot. I mean, but that's the nature of the show. So I don't know. I mean, what do you think about it?

I was glad it was brought up because we just never hear about that stuff. Yeah. Ever on this show, the timing of it was good because, you know, for those that don't know and plus, unbelievably enough, plenty of people that have emailed me didn't understand that this show was filmed after George Floyd happened.

OK, so I was glad it did. But I even asked her specific questions that I don't think she specifically answered.

It was. I agree. Yeah.

What did you I don't want to miss quote him here, because this is the whole point I'm trying to make, but I almost have to remember exactly his questions. But I know that her answers didn't match up. But it does make her a bad person. I just think maybe she was caught up in the moment and didn't know what to say.

But I certainly didn't think I learned a lot from her. Or like you said, I don't know much about teacher based off of her conversation with Ivan. I do know that she went to you know, she is of mixed race and she basically went to an all white high school that I'm familiar I'm familiar with because I grew up in the same county as she did. I know the high school she went to. It is a bunch of upper class white girls.

So, yeah, I'm sure her experience was, gosh, I'm around people constantly and, you know, high school, your formative years. And she's only hanging around with women that don't look like her number one and don't have probably the same things that she does and the experience that she grew up with.

And so I get that part. But from what I even asked her, which I'm completely blanking on now, I don't remember her answering the question.

Yeah, I mean, I had the same thought, you know, like he I well, I remember he asked her, how have you how have the events of twenty twenty affected you?

And I think she answered it in the sense that she showed us how it affected her.

She had a very emotional she kind of froze and and I think that that's a I think that that's a legitimate response given I don't know what she's been through, you know, but she cut she we can imagine that she's been through a lot.

I think in that instance, it didn't bother me so much as it does in other instances.

Like I really I kind of felt like the response to Ben was totally lacking.

I mean, he he he told her about something. It is extreme, I mean, eating disorders are one of the most shameful I mean, to the individual, like, I don't find them shameful, but people with eating disorders tend to be extremely ashamed. And it's one of the most sensitive disorders to talk about.

It's really visceral. It's really scary. It's really shameful.

And to hear and especially to hear a man talking, because not a lot of men have, you know, eating disorders, at least that we know of.

Yeah, it's very much more a a disorder that is affects that women are more likely to be suffering from an eating disorder than men. Sure.

Yeah. And her response is basically like, I'm so proud of you for telling me this. It's like there are a couple other things that we could have said here.

Like we you know, there could have been a real understanding of banned, you know, like what was it what was it like going through that period?

What how did it feel for you? I mean, how did you overcome this? What was it like growing up, feeling rejected by so many people so that you had to you felt like you had to develop this disorder? You know, I mean, there's so much to talk about there. And instead, it was the classic Effler transaction of Bares his soul. And then you're so brave to have told me that. Thank you. Also do this.

And I think this is maybe also kind of what you're getting at, but it's almost like the contestant owes their soul to the lead.

Like it's like if I tell you this, then, you know, then I have given my my sacrifice to you and you know how serious I am when the league doesn't give them shit all, you know, like.

So I don't it's just I don't know what that part is kind of icky to me. Like, I wish I wish it didn't feel like, OK, you have given me this information. Now we are good. I can give you a rose. You're welcome. Congratulations. We move on. It's really you know, it's such a fertile ground for such interesting conversation. But then again, there's editing like I don't know if this is your fault.

Yeah. To play devil's advocate, she might have responded with totally. We just get to see it. Yeah, we we have no idea. I do.

I do think she tends to freeze, though, in emotional like when she was on the wedding date with Zach, she was very uncomfortable and she was holding so much back, like we didn't see her really say anything about it. So she she just kind of thing that she has this tendency to to not kind of give the vulnerability that she asks for, which is OK, you know, just.

Yeah. I mean, it's so hard sometimes to talk about the show because if you say like, oh, God, Taisha, what an answer. He just bared his soul and you're like, cool. Thank you for telling me. I really appreciate you opening up. Here's a rose. Yeah.

And then if you attack that somebody, maybe even her, could come out and say there was more to the story that you don't know. It's like, OK, but I can only go off of what I saw. I don't know every detail that goes on behind this behind the scenes of the show. You know what?

We can reframe it to not be attacking Taisha, but to be attacking the show, you know, like show us more.

Give us if there was a good and it might it might have been where all she did was say thanks for sharing your soul.

Here's Rose. It might have been we we just don't know. That's why it's like it's almost like you can't even have an opinion anymore about certain things on the show because somebody can say, well, how do you know that they didn't do this or how do you know he didn't say that or she didn't say this. And, you know, it just it it can get really frustrating at times for sure. Guys, I want to talk to you about Monk Pack, healthy snacks have a bad reputation, let's be honest, most don't taste very good.

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I wanted to kind of lighten the mood here a bit since we got off.

We got pretty deep with that stuff.

I do want to talk about the the funnier moments from this week's show, which is first off, the Bennett and Noah feud. And, you know, everything that went along with it, it really was kind of similar to me, to the Becca and Tia argument from your season, where it just was like two people that. You know. They don't I don't I don't think Bennett hates no, I don't think Noa hates Bennett. I just think when you're in that situation, especially in a bubble where there is no traveling involved this season and your focus is on one person and you're doing the same interviews every day with the same producers, there's just going to be people in the house that rub you the wrong way.

It doesn't mean you hate them. It just means like, OK, and you know them again today. Yeah. And I'm sure that's the way it was with you and Becca, because they seem to be fine now and they think they are.

Maybe not. I don't know. I know.

But but their argument and their debate to when it was down to five women and it was basically who's going to get that fourth hometown team.

Rebecca, it was just well, I don't think she's here for the right reasons. She's not old enough. She hasn't been through enough.

And, you know, it's kind of what Bennett is saying to know it's almost the same thing. He's just like but he's coming across way more condescending to me than than than T.R. did to Becca. So your thoughts are the same on that? Pretty much.

Well, first of all, I haven't seen no one do anything wrong. Like know, they were last week. Everyone was mean to him. I was like, what is going on? And it was so dumb because he went and he told her, I don't know when.

I don't know. I'm guessing this is producer driven.

But like, it's so frustrating when a guy is getting beat up in the house and he really legitimately seems to be getting beat up. And then he goes to Teisha and she's like, how are you?

And he's like, well, actually I'm not very good because people are mean to me.

And and then he's got that as a tattletale, basically. Yeah. And they're saying that you didn't give me this because you mean it.

And then she's like, OK, now I'm going to completely throw this guy under the bus and go fuck over, walk in and talk to the entire house and say what he said.

And then everyone was like, you're such a liar. How could you say that? You'll never end up with her. She just gave you that. It's like you're just saying exactly what he told her. You've been saying. Yeah, but then it was like, Taisha, why are you making this a big deal? Because then she wouldn't give a rose to Ed. And it's clearly that was producer driven. Yeah.

I mean the whole thing. I mean with Bennett, if you look at Bennett, Noah, I mean the words that came out of his mouth last night, which is all we can go off of, clearly very narcissistic, self-absorbed, condescending.

Like I went, you know, you can make the jokes about, oh my God, Bennett can't stop talking about the fact he went to Harvard.

But but yeah. Because he keeps saying it and he keeps bringing it up and using it in his arguments as to why he doesn't think Noah will when he thinks Noah's beneath him. You know, for him to say last night that having a conversation with someone eleven years younger than you, that's like me being 25 and having a conversation with a 14 year old.

No, I'm sorry. It's not the same thing. A fourteen year old is not nearly as well developed as a 25 year old, you know, talking to a 36 year old.

Sorry, you know.

Yes. I mean, then it seems like I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen, like, a ton of sophisticated thinking or arguments from him.

He's just an asshole. You know what? At least and if I want to get that shit on this, I'm the last person to call sexist.

But if a woman kept bringing up that she went to Harvard, she would be destroyed.

She'd be eviscerated by by social media. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like he's getting a I guess he's getting away with it because, you know, women think he's hot and he's got a really sharp draw a line, I guess. I don't know.

I mean, to take away I mean, just take away his life. I mean, I guess you could do this for a lot of people in the franchise who seem to get the benefit of the doubt. But take away there are obviously there are plenty of people out there that think Bennett is a really good looking guy. If you were to take away his looks and put him on a scale looks wise that he was like a four or a five and he did exactly what he did on last night's episode, he'd probably be getting way more heat than he is.

It's you know, you're making excuses because you think he's hot. And that shouldn't be a reason. You make excuses for somebody who literally is going after Noah. And look, I get that the gift before the two on one date was completely producer generated. He didn't think of himself and somebody convinced him that would be a good idea.

But, you know, ultimately it is on you do maybe be like I don't think this is a good idea to present him with a book on emotional intelligence and then tell him he's deficient in three of the four qualities of emotional intelligence.

And yeah, I mean, I can attest the producers don't make you do anything. Maybe the lead they do, I don't know.

But it's not like I was ever forced to do anything. So I did what I want to do, you know?

I mean, and at the end of the day, even if they do encourage you to do something, once you're there in, you know, in the scene, you don't have to go through with it. No one's forcing your hand.

So I know.

No, I but there is there is this whole notion of. I don't know what you want to call it, playing the game, which is you kind of while they are not forcing you to do it, they are making it seem like if you don't, there are going to be consequences.

So it's almost like they're forcing you to do it.

I mean, I don't know. I wasn't I mean, you're not a good example. Yeah.

I'd be interested to talk to, like, Becca for my season or someone who was Ghufron or Martinez. Martinez, sorry. Or Crystal, you know, someone that I was so naturally entertaining and good with the camera that I'm not sure how much producers I needed to encourage her, but I was not someone they were making air time deals with. Like they you know, they weren't trying to prop up my airtime because I was entertaining. I feel like there's two routes you can go with the show.

One is you can go to win the show. So you concentrate on your relationship with the lead and you stay out of drama and then you can go the air time route where you cut deals with producers.

You do what they suggest.

You know, you you beef up the drama and entertainment factor in the early episodes and then you'll probably get eliminated, but you'll get a lot of Instagram followers and you'll get to see yourself on TV after school, so and so.

Yeah. And it seems like, Lauren, from your season now, Lauren and I went the route, the first route, which was I'm just here to win. She didn't involve herself in anything. She barely got any camera time outside of the dates that she was on.

So it seemed like, you know, and that was and, you know, it ultimately ended up leading to her, quote unquote, winning.

But, yeah, I mean, I just I get when contestants, certain contestants from the show will say producers don't make you do anything, but they kind of do it, you know, I mean, if they're selling you if they're telling you in an item, which I know that you've heard this story, that.

You know, I'm not we're not going let you go to sleep until you give us a soundbite there, because they're basically making you do it.

Yeah, that that's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So so.

Yeah, they are. But yeah. But you also have to take into account. The people that actually say that from this franchise, which people are saying producers don't make you anything, is it the people that get episodes in advance and who have podcasts, who get guests from the show?

Probably, you know, those are the ones that are kind of sticking up on production side that say that. But we all know what happens. And, you know, I mean, it's different. Every season is different for every contestant. Some contestants just push it.

Yeah. Yeah. Because they didn't do that shit with me. Yeah.

And that's insane. Like you were someone that did not have to deal with any of that producer manipulation. Yeah. Even down in paradise. Right. I mean there wasn't anything like. OK, perfect example.

Just out of curiosity, when you went down to paradise. Did you have an idea of who you wanted to ask out versus who you ended up asking out, which was Kenny? No, there was nobody there that I liked. Oh, I mean, I tried asking your Colton first and he rejected me. That's right. But I didn't really want to go. I mean, that's not very good. I don't think that was a very good male cast season.

I don't know. I mean, I can't remember who was. I'd have to look at the. What was that?

That was season five. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the second to last one we've had. OK, so, uh, senior season, I'm just going to pull it up real quick on on Wikipedia and just look at some of the guys names on this. All right. Let's see here.

Wil's. Oh, he's cool. I've never met him, but he seems cool. I think he was gone by the time I got there, though. Yeah, I think Kenny was awesome. Like, I'm super glad I went out with Kenny.

But I mean, the four people I got to talk to were Colton, who is, it turns out is a stalker, and Eric Baker, who is dating someone at the time, Kenny, who's awesome.

And then David, the chicken dude who was.

Yeah. And then the other like the other single person was Chris, who Chris ran down and he yeah.

He wasn't single very long. He had just gone out here and then immediately latched on with Krystal. But yes. Some of the names from your season.

Kenny Leo, God forbid anybody got involved with that guy. Right. David Connor O'Brien, who is now like just a reality show whore, just does every reality show appearance again. BENOWA Oh, God. ANWR went down there. I totally forgot about that.

But you were talking about the same season. Yeah, I'm reading off the cast for season five.

I'm just reading off the guys, Colton Bentall, Erik, Bigger Grocery, Joe Diggy, John Graham, Robbie Hayes. I mean, he showed up late and then. Yeah, Kevin went with that, you know, Astrid's fiancee, Camille Jordan Kemble, Chris Randon. And then your guy. Your guy from New Zealand.

Jordan. Yeah. Yeah. Huh.

Which was you know, that was you guys ended up, you know, briefly having a fling after that. But you never saw him on that show.

Right. You were never there at the same time as him. No. Yeah.

Did he did he does lie to you.

Is that how you guys got the inside him. Oh yeah. I mean, we're both on a burning man.

I was just like, oh, that's. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

OK, so yeah. I mean, look, I think it just like you said, it comes down to different individuals. And, you know, I think I think we know who the ones that kind of play the game when it comes to the show and who are productions favorites throughout the year, you know, it happens. And I just thought the Bennett Noah whole thing just was silly, like you said, because it was really over a lot of nothing and nothing we don't haven't seen before.

A hundred times before on the show, she's like, OK, he's the younger of the guys and he's one of the youngest in the group. But he's getting attention from Tatia because she gave him the group date, rose on a group date. He wasn't even a part of it.

You know, it's just like, OK, is there's nothing wrong with that. Oh, it's also done. No, I like no, I think it's cool. I mean, I will say, like, I think some of the extremely manipulative remarks that that takes are kind of interesting to watch. But I hope no one doesn't get to hold on this.

I mean, do you what do you want to know? The spoiler?

JACKLIN Sure. No, she keeps no over. Ben Oh, good. OK, so. Yeah.

And gosh, just watching it last night, you're almost like, how could she not, you know, granted, she wasn't there for that whole argument between Noah and it, but the last thing we saw her say is what does this gift you know, what does this doing here? And I'm sure he's going to have to tell her the whole thing was stupid.

Oh, here's a bandanna, you know, here, here's mustache socks.

Here's a book on emotional intelligence like, oh, my God, I already wore, by the way, like, how did he think? How did he I guess he wasn't thinking, but good God, for a guy who went to Harvard, he did not think ahead of how that was going to come across on television.

There was no other way for that to look other than you look like a condescending asshole. You know what?

What is funny when you're giving someone an emotional intelligence book.

Yeah, and apparently he's wrong. There's more than there's five parts to emotional intelligence.

Not fair to me. So it was even right about that part. So, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, it was almost like producers were throwing this to him and he didn't even really bother to research it. And yeah, I just don't I don't buy his act at all.

And I'm glad he's going home, but I feel I feel bad for saying he's not that smart, he could be really smart. He just doesn't seem super secure in his intelligence, I guess.

Yeah, and it's very possible. And we're not going to we don't know. We're very surface level as an audience on what it is all about. Very surface. I don't know. I mean, he's a super successful guy.

I'm sure he's.

Yeah, it's just made a lot of insecurity.

Maybe we'll get to know more about him down in paradise because he. Absolutely. 4000 percent will be down there on the.

Yes. And this is the next point I want to talk about. I brought this up jokingly.

I had actually texted you about this over the weekend or something like that whenever it was that I had heard. In fact, I know that there are at least three guys from this season, and I'm not going to name names. I don't want to throw these guys under the bus because I don't know them, know who they are personally.

But I know the names of who did this.

But there are three guys that have already reached out to other alumni from the show and asked how do they handle all the women that are DMSO want even going as far as to say, I've gotten so many nudes, I don't know what to do.

I don't know what to do with it.

Um, it's, it's funny. It's a really interesting dynamic of this show because we know it happens. This isn't the first season that it's happened. This is kind of the first season I've heard about the guys openly asking alumni, dude, what do I do?

Yeah, but for your experience, because I don't think it happens the other way around, really, as a woman on the show, did a bunch of dudes just be like, yeah, here's my dick, you know, Merican McElligott got a lot of dick pics.

I, I don't think I got one. Maybe and that's it. I know Kendall got one at least.

But it's not I mean it's not like I don't think her their inboxes were flooded with them but even the taking the dick big part out of it just ah the Dems flooded with guys saying I would love to go out with you sometime.

I mean, there's definitely a lot of that.

It's just it was all noise because when you're a woman, I mean at least for me, I'm thinking more about my safety than maybe some guy who's getting a newt is.

Yeah. And I'm and I'm just I don't know.

I'm not like looking to, like, jump into not like like looking to like leap into bed with a thousand guys, you know.

So when I get all these DM's in my Instagram, I want to know what they look like and what their personality's like, where they live.

I mean, if someone jumped a medium and had a public profile and was good looking and they lived in New York in time and had an interesting job and his captions were, you know, nice, interesting, whatever, I'd be like, OK, great.

And actually, I did go out with there was one guy who was late at night and he had a private profile, but then he got his girl friend, like his female friend to me. And she sent him like some she sent me some video of him doing something on the beach that had something to do with me.

I don't know. And she was like, will you please go out with my friend? He's really cool. He's a dentist. He's from I don't know, he like he's really nice. I can vouch for him.

And then so I got in touch with him and he wound up flying to New York to take me on a date. And it was fun. I mean, that was just a one time thing.

But, you know, so it was kind of funny because recently this guy who I guess like follow me on Instagram, there was some there was some girl that I think recaps The Bachelor something that he has a crush on. And he's like, would you dump her and tell her that I'm interested? So and I was like, well, it worked on me. So she decided to. And I was like, hey, I don't really know this guy, but he's you know, he's got nice from my experience and he's really interested in you.

And it's sort of sweet. And she, you know, she reached out to him. So I think it's a good idea. If you get your girlfriends to watch out for you, how would you rate you?

Like, I'm not going to answer one hundred deanne's from, like, random, faceless profiles. You know, they're like scary men. I don't know what their intentions are. I don't know who they are. And I'm not going to waste my time having the conversations to find out. And then just.

You don't I mean, so yeah, I think it is way different for a guy on this show who gets who can see, especially if a girl's profile is public. It's just like, oh wow, look at the way she looks. Oh, wow.

She's hitting on me like it doesn't right there at that point it's like, oh my gosh, I need to make plans to see her. Like there's no there's no thinking of. Wow, wow. I really want to get to know her on a personal level, on an intellectual level, totally different. The other way around for guys, you know, at least that I would.

And the fan base is overwhelmingly female. So they're just going to get more women by virtue of that alone.

Yeah, I almost want to say out there, like, look, if you are one of these women that is throwing yourself at whether it's one of his men or any man in the. Season and they are conversing with you just know that you're not the only one. In fact, you're probably one of many that they're emailing back trying even if they're saying how much they're into you and they want to hook up with you.

Trust me, you're the only one because they are getting bombarded. And I just I've heard too many stories over the years to be like, oh, yeah, I know these guys are all after one woman. They're looking for that one woman, that perfect one, to randomly go into their damage. And they're going to stop, you know, chasing tail of all the other ones that are in there, too. Like, it's just it's not happening, unfortunately.

Sorry, ladies.

Um, it was last night was the last thing I wanted to talk to you about. I totally blanked.

Crap you everything you want to talk about. I totally blanked.

Oh shit. Sorry. My home phone is ringing. You have a home phone. I don't think I'm I'm visiting my parents and they have a home. I can't escape it.

Oh, you're hoping it's going to be gone in a second. Wait, do they have.

OK, yeah. It won't end.

I don't know why they have this. It's all spam calls. OK, it's over.

It's a home phone. I don't even know what that is. What are those things? I know. I understand.

I was half expecting an answering machine to pick up.

We both have cell phones. It's not like there's any reason for this. Oh, really? Oh yeah. Where are your parents live? Where are you right now? Charleston, South Carolina. Did I know that Charleston? I thought you were, you were. I thought you were a mountaineer.

So you're what I am. I am. They moved here like, I don't know, under 10 years ago or something that I spent mind. I was born and raised until college in West Virginia. What part? Morgantown.

So. OK, so. Yeah, yeah.

You definitely amount and then you went did you go, did you w you no, I went to University of Virginia, so I went right next door. That's right. You went to Virginia.

Yeah, but my parents were professors at WVU and my brother went to WVU, so I've got a lot of mountaineer's love and pride.

So why didn't you go to WVU? I mean frankly, because my parents were very well, especially my mom is like really obsessed with college and brand name college. And she went to Duke and there was a lot of pressure to go to Duke and I didn't get in, which is why it's so weird that I wound up there for grad school.

But, you know, I just like it was just a really big value in my life was to go to the best college ever, which I think I will not probably pass on to my own kids in the same way. I don't think college, and especially where you went to college, maybe matters as much as I was led to believe.

Yeah, I can see that, especially nowadays. I think I think maybe back when you and I. Well, you're young.

You're significantly younger than me. Forget it. Yeah.

I mean, when I went to college. But yeah, I'm in the arts after twenty five. Maybe it doesn't seem it's as big of a deal. And then obviously with covid going on now and. People aren't even having the time to get the college experience like I think people I think that all kids should go away to college. Not everybody can I get that number one or two, but living on it, living away from home for four years and.

Being dependent on yourself and teaching yourself to get up and go to class and handle things on your own for four years and and just being in that environment, living in a dorm, meeting a bunch of people, I just think it's one of the best things anybody can do. And I would I would suggest it to anybody, even if it's in your hometown, doesn't necessarily mean you have to leave your state or leave your city. But just to get away and live on your own for four years and and do experience college, I think is invaluable.

One hundred percent. I also think that, like I like small colleges are really overlooked. My I mean, I went to UVA and I liked it, but I graduated not having taken a single psychology class because I had no idea I wanted to be a therapist. So I had to basically go to College of Charleston to get in-state tuition and like, paid for your classes. And it was an awesome experience. Like the professors were the one teaching the classes, not teachers and a lot of individualized attention.

I was able to get ahead really easily because I was motivated and it's like, you know, but College of Charleston isn't, you know, promoted in the same way as these larger universities are. So whatever. I mean, I just I think people should make these decisions considering things like finances and fit instead of brand name. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, I went to a small college. We had less than 5000 undergrads. And when I got into my junior and senior year, you know, my classes in my communications major were no more than 15 people. Yeah. So it was great. I mean, a lot of individualized attention and it was great. Never had even my intro to site classes in college were.

Yeah, they were. A hundred or so, but it wasn't like auditorium seating, where freshman intro to Psych at a public college, you have a thousand people in your class, like I never would have gone.

I never would have gone to class if that if I went to a school like that, I just couldn't I I had to go to a small school or else I would have really probably been in trouble. Yeah, I didn't do that.

Well, if I got like pretty average, I mean, I got like a three four jeep. So it was like, good, I guess. But, you know, like it was way it was way easier to excel at College of Charleston. And a half of that was just that I was more motivated.

But I don't I mean, like, you have to great.

Like, I was just a T.A. and I know how kind of I don't know, I kind of want to put out a PSA to all young college students that if you get a bad grade on something, it may be because your teacher was given like a day to grade 50 finals and like I was given a vague rubric and had to do their best.

You know, it's just I don't know.

Yeah, no, I it's hard. I had this conversation with who was it was Olivia a couple of weeks ago on the podcast Kemmerer, who I was having with.

But I was just talking about like, yeah, I just have no interest in ever going back and sitting in a cloud. I haven't been in a classroom since I graduated college in 1997. But I said, you know what? I think I would be almost now, I would be I would be more interested in sitting in on a class and not taking it for a grade or not taking it towards a degree. But I'd be interested in sitting in on one or even, you know, being brought in as a guest speaker on whatever podcasting or reality TV or whatever, just as somebody in the media that does a small niche audience that, hey, would love to give any knowledge or insight that I could give to college students who may be interested in that route.

I don't I want to talk about, oh, what if you have time? Well, it was interesting because you said you're so interested in empathy right now. But you're but I think you're in a really interesting position to talk about empathy because you spoil a lot of people's personal lives, but also, I think, advocate for people not been trashing those people. And then you take a lot of heat. And I don't know, I just I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the role of empathy in Bachelor Nation.

Well, I mean, I think I mean, I can't pinpoint an exact year, but I'd say within the last year, if you take three years out before that, I probably lacked a hell of a lot of empathy when it came when it came to this show on these contestants.

I've definitely changed my tune. And I think it's obvious the biggest factor was the Jena story. And, you know, you haven't been on that.

You haven't been on the podcast since February. Yeah.

And it was literally a couple of weeks after I talked to you when I last time you were on the podcast was when you and F.P. came on together back in February. And literally two weeks later was when I got that call, email from Jenna telling me about, hey, this is my situation, this is everything.

And, you know, I was open to listening to her.

And, you know, it it's the biggest mistake I've ever made. You know, I could give away a wrong spoiler. There's there's a difference between giving away a wrong spoiler. Yeah. That then doing what I did with Jenna, which was just not enough background checking and not enough research. And I should have been way more thorough than I was and in the process really fucked things up for her. And so I made it as best I mean, at that point, after everything that happened and Jenna came to me a year and a half later, the only thing I could do at that point was what I did, which was give her a voice on the podcast, almost huge, delete everything that I ever wrote about it.

And and just say, I'm sorry, I people still give me shit to this day for it. Any time I said anything about a contestant. Well, well, how do you know, Steve, you were wrong about Jenna. It's like, look, I don't know what you want me to say at this point. I've done what I can to correct that mistake. I'm trying to be better. That's it. Yeah. It's just it is a fine line because we get I get in a situation where I get told numerous things every season about numerous contestants, and now it's just come down to picking and choosing what is relevant to the show.

And what do I think people should know when I hear somebody say that, oh, my God, I had sex with that guy a week before he left for filming three years ago, I probably would've posted that.

Now, I don't give a shit like it's like I'm sorry. I mean, if he did that to you, it sucks. But that's not a story for me anymore.

I can't post that because I'd be posting that nonstop with the amount of stories like that I get about the guys or even think I have sex with someone three weeks before coming out.

I mean, I just it's it's big. But three years ago, for whatever reason, I guess either I wasn't getting it as much or it wasn't as common. But at this point, now I hear it so much that this. I ghosted me and this guy dated me and he promised me the world and all of a sudden I didn't hear from him and then I found out I saw he's on the next season of The Bachelor. I'm like our bachelor.

And I was like, OK, well, we have to see he might be relevant.

If he gets to the end, then we'll talk or but, you know, they tell me sometimes when the Cassilis comes out and I'm sitting there going, OK, we just have to I have to take a wait and see approach, because if he's sorry, there's a pecking order when it comes to the show.

If he somebody gets let me in on the first night, it's not relevant that he goes to do two weeks ago. I'm sorry. It's just he's just not.

Would you care, though, even if he won, if he like, he goes to some chick two weeks before this and they weren't in some serious relationship?

Well, that's where that's where it comes down to a case by case basis, because the whole thing that happened with Jed is a huge deal. And that's exactly you know, Hannah Brown ended up proposing to a guy who literally left for the show with a girlfriend telling her he'd be, you know, to wait for him. A guarantee of Hannah Brown knew that during filming she never would have proposed to Jet or she never would have allowed Jet Wyatt to be her final one.

No way. Yeah, but I couldn't.

I mean, obviously, I don't have that access to Hannah Brown during filming, but that's why I went with that story and put that woman on my podcast because she needed to tell her story about how bad it was. It wasn't just like, oh, hit him. And I were kind of seeing each other. This was a guy that literally texting her as he was getting on the plane, texted her once he landed in L.A. saying, wait for me, like there's a difference between what Jet did and I guess some of the other randoms that are just like, yeah, I was hanging out with her and maybe I should have been a little more open, but I wasn't and, you know, kind of went on the show.

But, yeah, I mean, it's it's for me now as opposed to immediately running with it or just be like, oh wow, this is good stuff. Now it's turned into a case by case basis of how relevant is this? How serious were was the couple and was it more than just a hookup or you know, I mean, to be honest, even if people are saying, well, how do you know, Steve, the what you did?

It's a good you should have that skepticism when you read something like this.

Like, it's I would rather, you know, even if you post something that's true, like I personally do not give a shit about people's personal lives.

Like, you know, if if you had a girlfriend that up until twenty minutes before the show started, whatever, like as long, you know, he broke up and she knows what you're doing or whatever, but it's like even if that's true, what's the point in a bunch of rabid fans, just like then going and piling on them.

And I mean it's like coming home to his family members and screaming at them, you know? So I think it's good to just be like, well, maybe I don't actually know if this is true and I don't have to take a sister. God, I was looking at the comments on Claire's photos.

Well, I like really I've never met Claire, but I really think she's great TV.

And I like I really hope she works out quite well because I think she wears her heart on his sleeve and she believes, like everything she says so much. And I was watching this pile on of these comments. I was like, why do you care so much?

Why did you wake up this morning and think to yourself, I think I'm going to make someone's day worse today. I think I'm going to go hurt someone. That's what I'm going to do with my day.

Yeah, no, it's it's amazing. The toxic bachelor nation that we are now. That that we're now a part of just because I don't understand the pylon mentality and I get it, if something negative comes out about somebody, but it doesn't mean you have to cancel them publicly, just, I don't know, cancel them in your own head.

Just be like I just don't want to think about that guy or. Yes, think about that girl. You don't have to go write mean shit on their Instagram page or DMM. Even if you don't want people to see what you're saying to them, they're still seeing it.

I mean, you know, we can talk about I mean, I don't really want to talk about it's been beaten to death enough this week. But you know what happened with Ashley this week? Oh, my God.

And the fact that, you know, you've seen what she's posted on Instagram of some of the harassment that she's gotten from the anti-tax community, it's just on real to me that somebody. Can't put their thought about vaccinations aside for someone who just lost a child like you can think that that's fine if that's what you think.

I personally don't like going after her. I don't.

I have no idea because Ashley hasn't been posting. But they did the day after it happened, you know. Oh, my God.

And she posted. Are you serious? Oh, yeah. No, they posted it. She posted it since last Thursday, since she's had to go through this.

And, you know, she posted it tagging Facebook and Instagram, telling them this is straight up harassment. How are you not you know, but there's I guarantee there's so many people every day that.

You know, send stuff to Instagram like this is wrong, it's around, I get I get that there's a lot of people that they're probably sifting through a lot and probably nothing will be done to those people's accounts. And even if those accounts are eliminated by Instagram.

If those people are that mean they're probably petty enough to just start up a new one and just create a new account and, you know, go from there, but it just sucks. And, yeah, we don't understand it, you know, we don't understand it actually is an extreme case. But just even going to shit like even even all the shit we've talked about Bennett in this podcast, and I think he's self-absorbed and narcissistic. I would never reveal I already feel bad.

I wouldn't I wouldn't I don't wish ill will upon the guy. I don't want him to rot in hell. I don't want him to, you know, never reproduce or have a marriage or children like some of the things we do.

So I bet I would hang out with that in real life. I bet he's actually a cool guy and I bet he is really smart and I bet, you know, he has really good values and everything. But the show can kind of bring out the worst in sometimes because there is people celebrating, you know, like just, hey, that snarky thing to say, come on, it's honest.

You know, just say it.

Yeah. And kind of, you know, encouraging childish behavior and encouraging on this. And so, I mean, that's all I'm reacting to. It's like, come on then. You're blaming some guy for not having emotional intelligence and then you're doing this. But that's why people really need to like, take a second, not care. So much difference between criticism and hate.

And, you know, snarky is not hate. Snarky is criticism. And it's or making fun because there's so much to make fun of totally on this show that I just think that people take it way too far. And I've seen that just in recent seasons.

Just what I write about my columns like I mean, if you were to people actually went back and read some of the stuff I wrote four or five, 10 years ago.

It's not even the same person. It's just like I can't believe I wrote some of the stuff that I did. It was bad. It was terrible. I'll be the first to admit it was awful.

That's the thing about cancer culture, though. It's like we we've lost this idea of redemption, you know?

I mean, you're probably a huge dick ten years ago, you know, but like, you're able to apologize and learn.

And this whole Jenna thing, I mean, I think, you know, we had a real beef about it back in the day. But I think it takes being a man to stand up and or, you know what?

Being a woman, being an adult, to stand up and say, look, look, I, I did wrong and I going to have her on and I'm going to fully take responsibility and learn from it and go forward. That's tremendous.

And yet, you know, the crazy thing about the Jenna thing is now, I mean, I, I mean, the story itself was crazy.

But what's funny to me when just talking about it right now that that was actually in February of 20/20 like that literally seems it was two years ago. Like I actually had to do a double take in my head, like, wait a second, was that actually February of this year?

And it was like, I can't believe I thought it was last year.

Twenty nineteen. But wait.

Yeah, it was this year and that's when it happened. Right, right before covid. Right. Reimer's fast and bachelor world.

Am I totally wrong on this or. No.

No I think you know, I think you're right. Yeah, I can't believe I can't remember when the Jenna stuff happened. Hold on a second. I need to look at this because I, I want to make sure I'm absolutely 100 percent correct.

But you are correct because I was in Durham at the time and I've only been there for a year and a half, and it was. That's right.

OK, yeah. Jacqueline and Jacqueline and F.P. were on you guys were on February 20th and then I had Jenna on April 16th.

And thanks for having me on for time, Steve. I was supposed to stop watching this shit. Yeah. Clara stuff is just too juicy. Reeled me back in.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. So yeah. So yeah. Jenna, Jenna contacted me shortly after I did the interview with you in F.P. and then we ended up doing the podcast on April 16th of this year.

Holy shit. That literally seems like it was a year and April 18th of 16th of twenty nineteen. That was during the pandemic that I did that with Jenna.

Oh my gosh. Wow. OK. But, yeah, I. Among other things that are crazy about that whole story, you know, look, when you and I talked about it all, you would always say to me would be, Steve, are you sure? Like, you never really put up too much of a fight.

Are you kidding me? I said over and over again that she didn't do it.

And I gave you reasons that she didn't do it.

No, but you see, but your basic premise was, look, well, yeah, you absolutely enforced every time that we spoke. I don't think she did this. But, hey, she could be lying to me, Steve.

I don't know, like, if it was possible. Yeah, it's always possible. But, yeah, you were very adamant and you would just say, are you sure? Because this is not the Jenna that I know. And I would be like, I don't know what to tell you.

Jaclyn, don't you like this is you haven't seen what I've seen. You didn't talk to I talked to you.

And then obviously that ended up being different. But, yeah, I just the whole thing is, you know, this online harassment stuff, though, I mean, it's crazy being a bachelor contestant. My boyfriend received an explicit photo of me from some anonymous source, and it could have been someone from my past.

But after what happened to Jenna and after who the person started that crazy rumor of me two years ago, I'm just like I feel like I'm just looking behind my shoulder all the time, you know, like this shit has got to stop.

Like, I don't I mean, after, like, how crazy it wasn't.

Jenna, it's like there's an army of people out there who are just trying to destroy lives and bachelor nation. And now it's it's crazy.

I forgot about that. Your and you did tell me that. Yeah. But you still don't know to this day where that picture came from. I think it came from my email. I got like I got a notification that my password had been compromised, like two days before it happened, or it could have been I mean, I don't know, could have been jealous.

Girlfriend of and know and the and when your boyfriend got the picture of you, the email that sent it to him was obviously not traceable.

He deleted it forever, immediately, because it was extremely traumatic for him. Oh. So yeah, I don't know.

But like I'm just saying like I don't know if I don't know if it is bachelor related at all.

But the fact that someone tried to destroy my reputation in the past and then did destroy his reputation and I know was like I mean, it sounds like it was like an army of people.

It's just like scary to go on the show now.

Yeah, for sure. I think there's a lot of people out there that are just looking to jump and and pounce when they see somebody that, you know. You know, one thing that I've gotten and this is something that I have stayed away from and I never really went with it, even when I was in my bad times or whatever, you know, three years out or whatever is. This girl or this guy bullied me in middle school. It's just it's like I don't look, I'm not saying I'm I don't believe that they bullied you in middle school, but exactly what does that have to do with them now?

I can't I can't condemn a I don't know.

Twenty five to twenty seven year old girl who just got cast on the next season of The Bachelor because someone said 15 years ago she bullied her at school. Like because there's no again, not saying that. I don't believe the bullying happened. It probably did, but it's almost like, OK, in what form did it happen? Did she just call you names? Because I'm sorry, in middle school, that's kind of what everybody did. Not that it matters.

Right. But I'm not going to be like, oh, so and so on. You know, Matt James, season of The Bachelor is a total bitch because she called someone a loser in seventh grade. Like, no, like what was the bullying consisting of? And then most of those people obviously to this day can't prove it. So it's like, I don't know, what do you want me to do with this? Like I'm supposed to cancel this girl or tell or tell my giant, you know, niche audience.

Oh, by the way, this girl that you might like on Matt James season. Yeah. She pulled a girl's hair and sixth grade, you know, it's like I don't I don't know.

Yeah, well, it's also like, OK, so she did a bad thing. What about the good things she's done? No, I mean it'd be interesting if we had a call.

The pros and cons like, OK, you know, she fucked someone three days before coming on the show, but also started a charity helping whoever like this culture now where we become the totality of our of our bad behavior.

And it's like we're much, much, much more than that. We do so much more good than bad usually.

Yeah. And I'm guessing if something happened in middle school, this person has had some redeeming things that they've done since middle school. When they you know, I think one of the ones that I heard was like she forced me to transfer. I ended up having to transfer to another school because it got so bad. OK, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That sucked. I'm sorry. That sucks. I'm sorry it happened to you, but I can't prove that.

And I'm not saying I don't believe you, but without any proof, what am I supposed to do? Like what do you. So the fact that someone is even taking the time to tell me, 15, 20 years ago I was bullied by this girl who's now on the show. OK, I don't know. I don't know what I'm supposed to do or I know I know I'm not going to, like, put it out there for everyone to know.

But I don't know what that person wants me to do. What what is their goal out of all this?

To get as many vengeance? Yeah, to get as many people to not like that girl because of what she did to you in middle school. It's OK, but they're not going to care most people. Ninety nine percent of people are not going to care that somebody forced you to transfer schools in seventh grade because she was mean to you.

It's just not sorry. Yeah, I mean, I. I wish the people would take into consideration scope.

I mean, even the judge thing, like, I feel actually a lot of anger towards that girl because if she really wanted to do this for Hannah, she could have deemed Hannah her dad a producer or I don't know, just gotten some other like I understand that he hurt her and that he was a dick, but.

Now, like what he went through was of an order of magnitude greater than what she went through. I mean, he lost his fiancee. He was humiliated on TV. His parents and family were attacked in the streets.

And he was mocked mercilessly, like, you know, it's just I wish people would think before they decide to tear down another person, because when you're in the spotlight, you know, it's addictive and delicious and you want more and more of it.

But also it can ruin your life and you start, you know, constantly watching your back and being paranoid and knowing that people want to hurt you and want to wake up every day and say something mean to you.

And I don't know. It's just I was lucky because. Well, I was I was lucky.

Unlike you, everyone knows I wanted more followers. I wanted more whatever. But it also meant that I didn't get the abuse that some of the others got.

Yes, it's scary.

It's almost like a PSA we could put out for the women that are about to be. I mean, Matt James has already filmed his season, but these women will become the new, quote unquote, class of contestants that are being introduced to America starting in January fourth is that I hope these women understand what them what they got themselves into. Stuff is going to air that's going to make them seem a certain way, which is going to elicit a response out of a certain viewing audience.

Stuff might not air that you feel vindicates you on certain things, but just go with as many good perks as it comes comes out of being on this show.

There are plenty, plenty of negative ones that you're going to have to deal with and they might not even be true. Things might get said about you that are posted online, whether it's on dumb Reddit or, you know, any sort of message board where it could be something totally factually incorrect about you, but is immediately taken as fact because somebody behind a screen name posted it just know it could happen. So.

Well, I'm glad to see you become more empathic, Steve.

How about that? Changed my name. I want to be empathy, Steve instead of Rosie.

So I go on that podcast. Yeah. How about that? We could talk about my empathy for an hour and 20 minutes like this one.

Well, anyway, Jacqueline, thank you again, as always, for coming on. This was a this was a fun podcast because we dove into stuff that I didn't even expect to dive into.

So it was a lot of fun. As always, you're always you're always a great Hangu, for sure. Thanks for having me on again. It was fun. I love going on this podcast. You're welcome. And again, check out her podcast. A little help for our friends from our friends, a little help for our Friends podcast. You can get it on any podcast, I'm assuming any of the podcast platforms out there. Yeah, well, that.

And does it come out on?

Does it come out on Wednesdays or when does it come out? Wednesdays.

OK, so depression episodes next. Oh OK.

Go check that out if you are so inclined. And Jacklin again. Thanks for coming on. Say how to f for me next time you talked to him. Well let I'm hear from him.

I talk to him on his birthday which was some weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah.

I remember seeing stuff on his Twitter about that. Anyway, thanks again. I appreciate it. And we'll obviously be in touch.

All righty. Thanks so much. Take care. Thanks so much to Jacqueline for that, so much fun talking to her all the time. She's a great podcast guest and go check out her podcast, if you may. A little help for our friends. And a lot of deep talk there. I enjoyed our talk just kind of going and. Diving into things that maybe I didn't expect to talk about, then again, I also forgot our last topic and I still can't remember when I should have written it down.

I had most of my stuff written down for this interview and I just completely blanked on the last topic.

But anyway, thanks again to Jacqueline for coming on. Thank you all for listening. Please write, subscribe and review an Apple podcast. We will be back next week with yet another podcast. Oh, by the way, did you realize I had said at the beginning of the podcast, but this is the four year anniversary of the reality podcast Starting Crazy. December 5th, 2016 was my first one, if I'm not mistaken. Let me scroll here real quick.

Oh, crap. Steve, what are you doing? Oh, see, all episodes miscall here. Real quick to get the exact date. Yeah, it was December 4th, 2016. And you are hearing this on December 3rd.

Twenty twenty. So, yeah, four years first Thursday. In December of twenty sixteen was my first podcast, and here we are, what, 211? Eleven episodes later, four years later, still doing it crazy. Thank you all for listening.

You guys make it successful. It's the best. It's. It's it's great to hear feedback on the podcast personally, whether you email it to me or. DM me on Twitter or Instagram. That's the best way to hear it, because the comments on. Apple podcast, I don't really see them. I know they're there because I can see the counter on them, but I don't really go in and see them. But if you ever want to, um, send me a note on a podcast, just email me at Steve.

In reality, Steve dot com or, you know, pick me up on DRM on Twitter and let me know what you like about the podcast and what you don't. So thanks again. I appreciate it. Thanks again, Jacqueline, for coming on. She's great. And we will talk to you next week to.