The book is called Growing Wings: The Inside Story of Red Bull Racing. He is Ben Hunt, the author, and he's joining Tim Horeani and myself, Adam Wilde on Nail on the Apex. Ben, thank you so much for coming to the show. You always get a round of applause.

Wow, that's awesome. Thanks, guys. Much appreciated.

How are things?

Yeah, very good. I'm in the middle of the British Motor GP weekend at the moment, so different hats on this weekend rather than the F1 one. I've got a Motor GP one and quite enjoying it, actually. It makes a nice change.

Is Valentino Rossi there?

I haven't seen him. He's got a team here. He's got his own team. So you know what? It's really surprising. Going back to Silverstone and you see the F1 operation and it's like an absolute monster amount of people. Yesterday, Thursday, I was driving in in my car and I always get there. I think, Is it on? There's no one here. There is no one here. Of course, Thursday is just a media day, so there wasn't any on track action. It will be busier over the weekend. But in terms of numbers, you're looking at a quarter of the number compared to what we get during a F1 Grand Prix weekend. So it's quite nice. I quite like that. You're able to walk around and talk to people and not get overrun with stuff. And yeah, it's really good.

Ben, is the traffic at Silverstone as bad as Tim always complains that it is?

Do you know what? On-leaving, leaving, leaving. Yeah, I'm going to say this. Leaving on Sunday night. It's a two hour run for me to get home. It took me five hours on a motorbike. That's how bad it was. The motorbikes were all closed. There was lots of things conspiring against us, but it was an absolute nightmare. It's volume of people, so many people cramming into that airfield, and there's only one exit, one main entrance, and it's just difficult.

Have they ever considered doing something different about that?

Making two exits? Well, yeah. Exactly. I mean, this sums it up. I think I'm writing saying, in the moments before the race, that is the busiest airspace in Europe because you've got a helicopter landing and taking off every 20 seconds. It shows you that all the high fliers, if you excuse the pun, are coming in by helicopter to beat the traffic. So it's a tricky situation. Silverstone is in the middle of nowhere. It's very awkward, a bit like, almost like Cota in the sense, where it's And even Canadian Grand Prix, where you've got it in the middle of a giant river. It's quite inaccessible. They like to put these tracks in silly places, don't they? Yes, it'd be handy if it was an extra station or an airport or something like that. But Yeah.

Yeah. I remember being at the Canadian Grand Prix a few years ago and going, I would rather swim than take the subway back home. But the current is a little too strong. I don't think you could, if you're an author writing about F1, write a book that is more timely than what you've done? And I think I can't imagine that this was on purpose in terms of what's going on at Red Bull Racing this year.

I fluked this one, didn't I? Oh, it's great.

That's fantastic.

If I'm being honest, and a total plug for another book that I'm actually writing at the moment, which is a McLaren book and about how their coming of age and ascendancy, I'd like to take credit for that because I think that's quite a sweet a spot at the moment. But getting back to this Red Bull book, yeah. Going through it, working closely with the team throughout it last year while I was writing it was a really good process because I was getting stuck into the topics. I started my F1 career around halfway through, so I needed to do some digging in the early years and learning about the formation and just how it was all married together and then dealing with progress and various different fallouts and controversial elements, et cetera. But then I didn't quite envisage it playing out as it did. The book was all written around December time, and then we had to put it on hold just seeing what was happening with regards to the internal investigation and everything else. And of course, it's been topical, but my previous job was working for a newspaper, and you're very much, you live by the day.

The story is old by the time it comes out, and then the next day there's something else. But when you're When you're writing a book, it has to stand the test of time. And of course, I found that very difficult not knowing what was going on at Red Bull. Who was going to come out the other side? Was Christian Horne going to be in charge? Was Max Verstappen going to be driving? There were so many elements that I didn't know what was going to happen. And you just have to grit your teeth and go through it and just see how it all shakes out in the end. And fortunately, we did start the season with all in situ. And then since then, Adrian's gone. And more recently, recently, Jonathan Weekly just announced that he's joining Aldi as a team principal. So, yeah, there are changes. But, yeah, it was a fascinating project. I really enjoyed it celebrating the team's success over those 20 years.

Hey, Ben, we were in Bahrain and getting all the news about Horner and everything, and then we had to leak WhatsApp messages and all that stuff. Were you having to write a separate chapter for all of that, or did you have that planned? What was your thought process in that moment?

I was a little bit concerned as to what would happen because you don't know what was going to... We didn't really know too much about it. We still don't know too much about the internal complaint and the process. That still remains very much within Red Bull's domain. So, yeah, I was mindful that I'd worked hard with the team and Christian on this book and just not knowing what Red Bull's decision was going to be at the end of it. When I say Red Bull, I mean Red Bull Austria, as opposed to Red Bull Racing. It's quite important that there is a distinction between the two, Red Bull controlling the team, and then obviously Red Bull Racing is the separate entity. So yes, I was a little bit scratching my head. What happens now? This book should have all been on its way to the printers, and we're not knowing if the guy who at the front of the book is the team principal is going to be the team principal when it comes out. It's not just me. I mean, Gunther Steiner's had that book, hasn't he? That did very well. And then he signed a second one, of which I would imagine it had all been written and signed off.

And of course, then he got the news in January that he wouldn't be leading that team. You have to respond. I think that's where my strength is as a journalist and being able to respond to breaking news. All of a sudden, this book, rather than becoming a reflection of the 20-year history, it was that had all been written. It was like, How do I respond now? We've got a chapter towards the back where I explain the turmoil in a half a chapter, but it was explaining everything that I was going through as well as the team and just reporting what happened to try and bring it up to date. But that does obviously become a cut off point, and eventually we got to it. And yeah, the book was printed. And as I say, nothing's really changed except for except for Adrian Newy going and Jonathan Weekly going, which I'm sure we'll get on to.

Yeah. Well, I think to start us off here, you get little bits and pieces in other works about what Red Bull is and was, right? Obviously, famously, the Mark Webber book, Adrian Newy's book. And from what I could gather, Red Bull were an upstart party team to start. They eventually become a team of of fractious infighting and power struggles. But we can get to that. Talk about, if you can, Ben, the first years of Red Bull in Formula One. How did they get in? Because I know it starts with sponsorship deals. And When do they decide, okay, you know what, Dietrich Matteschitz goes, you know what, we should do teams. Okay, now we should do two.

Yeah. I mean, that's it. Yeah. It started with sponsorship deals. Kimmerich was one of the first drivers to take the Red Bull sponsorship, and they were looking at doing a few other Austrian drivers as well. In fact, they did. And then Dietrich Matisci was always interested in Formula One, and he had a friendship with Helmut Marco, who we obviously know is still at Red Bull. And once the seed started, it was the demise of the old Jaguar team. And then they were told to go and find a potential buyer, and Red Bull were interested, and they made it happen very quickly. 2004, and then obviously got Christian Horner involved straight away. He had come from Formula 3000, so the category below, and he was able to go in and just assess. I think he spent the first couple of months just identifying where the organization was weak. This was a team that was underperforming. The car was slow. It wasn't reliable. And he had a wishlist of talent that he wanted to approach. And he looked around the F1 paddock and could see the people that he wanted but was able to offer them a promotion.

So if you was a chief or number one mechanic, you could become a chief mechanic and such like. You was able to take the next step of your career. And there was a few people who were hesitant because there was an assumption that We've seen teams come and go in Formula One, and they weren't too sure about Red Bull's overall ambition and whether they had the facilities and the deep pockets to match that ambition. And I think a few people were hesitant, but those that came on board quickly brought into it, and you're able to see a lot of progress very quickly. Then obviously a couple of years later, the idea of a second team and economies of scale and trying to run two teams efficiently. The F1 rules actually prevent that from happening They've got to be separate manufacturers, and obviously they're based in separate countries. But the idea initially was to have them all working out of one base and having effectively four cars being produced by one outfit, but that hasn't happened. But that said, the story of Red Bull success has been been amazing. So much success in a short period of time as well.

And the ability to win four titles in a row with Sebastian Vettel and then come off the boil a little bit. But the way that they were able to rediscover form, albeit in controversial circumstances in 2021 with Max winning the title, but they were very much able to get back on top. And I think that was the mentality mentality, and it stems not just from Christian Horner and the team, but even from Red Bull and Dietrich Matisci, and that desire to be successful at all costs. And even when you're not winning, to still think of yourselves as a team that is winning and maintaining that pressure. And I think that's where it's been interesting to watch Mercedes, how since they've lost the title, how they've responded, they've really struggled initially to find form, to keep morale, and to keep pushing in the right direction. And it's been very difficult for the drivers to keep picking up the pieces. We're only now seeing them come out the other side with wins for George and Lewis, but it's definitely been a hard process for them. And I think the red bull side is that they've always had that mentality, even when they're not winning.

I was going to ask you, Ben, just about you were working at the other newspaper, obviously, when you were writing all this. And obviously, having to work with Christian Horner in some capacity not only just for writing of the book, but also for keeping up with the news. How did you keep that relationship where you needed it to be so you weren't overstepping, but you weren't not doing your other job?

Yeah, It's tricky, isn't it? Being a journalist with one hand and you've got to be holding people to account and then you're trying to work with them on a reflective review on the success of the team. Flipping and flopping between the two discussions is tricky, but I think that's my my strength in the sense that I'm quite honest and open. My line of questioning is always, I'm not hiding behind my questions. It's quite clear if I'm asking something, it's in a pointed manner. Then obviously, when I was talking to him from the book point of view, it was very obvious that it was a historical look. I think for me, it's being open and honest and chatting to the individuals and making sure they're 100 % clear as to what organization I'm working for, it be the book or whether it be a newspaper, and them understanding that their responses are according to the publication that I'm working for. So, yeah, just being open and honest and totally transparent really was the key.

Ben, I think a lot of people don't question why Red Bull has a team or its existence in the sport. It made sense pre-crash, 2008, 2009 for BMW, Toyota, four Ford when they were Jag, all of these, Ferrari, obviously, for these teams to be in the sport. And then there were the family name teams, McLaren loosely, Williams for sure, Minority were one of them, and so many others that had come in, fallen off. Jordan is another one that comes to mind. What is their reason for existing in the sport? Because they're such a huge name. I don't think anybody really stops to think about what's the benefit for Red Bull Global.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it was initially exposure, wasn't it? A branding exercise. You see that Red Bull have now rolled this out across multiple sports. I think I put in the book, I can't remember the number, but how many athletes they have now. Something like 160, maybe more. I mean, a hell of a lot of athletes on their board. And it's all about brand exposure. And of course, that's how it started. But then when you have success, it's We're now a separate entity. The team makes money. Both teams make money. And part of Formula One in its current era and the cost cap era means it's easier for teams to be profitable. And that's exactly where Red Bull finds itself. Title partner Oracle brings in so much money and all the other logos on the car, it all adds up. And they are self-sufficient now. They don't actually need the money from Red Bull because they're able to keep going themselves. And I think that's been the goal to get to at that point. And just to see the team functioning on its own is quite incredible.

And I guess, we don't want to give too much away of the book, but I think one of the dynamics of Red Bull that I think has always gone on behind the scenes, Mark Webber alludes to this in his book. Actually, he doesn't allude to it. He goes right at it in typical Mark Webber fashion. It's one of my favorite books outside. Within Formula One is Mark Webber's book and his insights into There is a weird relationship, and if you weren't previously aware of it, you are now between Helmut Marco and Christian Horner, because Helmut Marco is not a part of the Formula One team. He was just buddies with the owner, but he had a racing background. Christian Horner got into the junior levels, wasn't fast enough to make Formula One, becomes a team principal, I guess, in Formula 3000. And they're running this team as Christian's the boss, but Helmut's also the boss the boss. And it seems like from month to month, for a while there, at least, we didn't know who was in charge. So has it always been that way?

Yeah, I think so. Christian and Helmut met. Christian went to go and buy a trailer for one of his race cars and responded to an advert and saw it was in Austria and went over. And that's when he first met Helmut when he was running his junior race team. And so, yeah, I mean, Christian started the team, and then it became under the umbrella of the Red Bull Junior program. And that relationship of running Red Bull Junior drivers, which is obviously what we see them continue to operate and how they park their young drivers at various different teams. And yeah, that's always been the relationship. You mentioned a point about Helmut not being employed by Red Bull Racing, but by Red Bull. Yeah, he was the man on the ground that would feed the information back to Dietrich Matterschitz, the owner of Red Bull, and telling him where he felt that the his business was going and give the feedback. And ultimately, he would make a decision as well about which driver went where. And he's been assimilated into Red Bull Racing just by virtue of him always being there and going to every race.

And of course, now He's got that strong relationship with the Verstappen. So he's still very much an integral part of the operation. He's currently in Heret at the moment for young driver test. So most people are on holiday, but he's still working with within his role, developing young talent. So it hasn't stopped. He's still the man on the ground. And you could be forgiven for thinking that he would have the summer off, but no, he's still working. So that probably underlines the work ethic. And probably why Red Bull Austria have trusted him so much to unearth all the talent that he has done.

Do they like them? Or sorry, do they like each other, Horner and Helmut Marco?

Love-hate relationship, shall we say? Okay. All right. I think they have a very strong difference of opinions. But that said, they're able to sit down and frequently sit down and have breakfast together and discuss where they are as a team. But obviously, if they push in different directions, it's inevitable that you can have a disagreement of opinion, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get on. And I think that's been throughout the whole career. I don't think it's anything new. It may be highlighted a little bit more with what's gone on over the recent months, but that hasn't changed. They've always had that relationship where Where Christian will say something in the press, and then Helmut will say something else, and then Christian will probably raise his eyebrows and think, Oh, why has he said that? And probably the other way around as well. Probably Helmut gets to hear stuff that Christian says that he doesn't agree with. And I think it's fascinating from a media point of view to see it all play out. But it's not the polished article. And I quite like the fact that you've got two different camps talking about different elements, and it gives you a holistic approach on a story.

You're not just getting one side, you're getting both sides.

How much does Helmut really play into the decisions that they make at the F1 team now, can say, compared to three, two years ago?

Yeah, probably less so. I think that there was a bit of a step back a couple of years ago in terms of his day to day involvement. But that said, over the last couple of months, he's forged a strong ally in Max and Max's dad. So that's by doing so has made him more important and relevant to the Red Bull machine as it is at the moment. But previously, I don't want to say marginalized because that's not right, but he had been not as instrumental dental, partly because they haven't needed him and his input. And we haven't seen if young drivers really come through that system. It's been since Liam Lawson, and I know he's waiting to come through, but there's a little bit of a gap in that talent at the moment. It it seems. And it probably accounts why this discussion with Sergio Perez and Daniel Ricciardo's future is all up in the air. And I think Helmut hasn't been as much involved in that for whatever reason.

It's interesting because you say that there's a gap, right? Because this feels like a program, this young driver program that Helmut Marco put together. It feels like for the last decade and a half, it's graduated some of the biggest stars in the sport, and it has. But before For Sebastian Vettel, it was seen as Helmut's pet project that really didn't yield very much. Can we talk about the... And again, I don't want to give away the book. I want to encourage people to buy the book, but I want to talk about the emergence of Sebastian Vettel within that system and how much that meant for the future of the Red Bull Young Driver program.

Yeah. I mean, he was like you mentioned there. He was the poster boy for it, wasn't he? He was driving at BMW Salba, And then he was thinking about what to do next. And Red Bull were interested. There's a story that Christian tells in the book where Sebastian turns up unannounced at the factory in Austria Tour, and he's taken round. And that was very early days. I think that it is an interesting one because he had done so much work in the background with BMW and other racing series. He joined the Red Bull program late, if you consider it by modern standards, where they're signing up the kids from a very young age. But yeah, of course, he was successful in the second team in the Torre Rosso winning the race. And then obviously that prompted Red Bull to put him into the main team. So instrumental and definitely the poster boy for that program. But unfortunately, as I say, it just seems to have fizzled out a little bit at the moment. But who's to say that it's not going to unearth another gem going forward? And I think the disappointing was just being in this situation where we've got no obvious ready-made replacement for a couple of drivers that maybe potentially do need to be moved on.

And I think that's probably a testament of just where Red Bull are at the moment.

It's interesting because half the grid, I think, are former Red Bull drivers. Red Bull or former Red Bull drivers, right? Carlos signs, obviously, just signed with Williams. The one thing about Red Bull, though, is we talk about rivalries off the track. And I do want to get back to Christian Horner at one point because I want a little bit of a sketch profile of him if you can. But the driver rivalries at Red Bull dating back to... Because there was not really a rivalry between David Colthard and Mark Webber. They weren't a good enough team. It didn't matter. They were seeing signs that it was going to get better. But Vettel and Mark Webber and Multi-21 and all the other things that go on there, that sets the tone for Ricardo versus Vettel, and Kiviat, and Verstoppen, and signs Verstoppen, and Kiviat, Ricardo. And then, of course, Ricardo leaving the team because Helmut Marco tells him, well, after you win a world Championship, we want Max to win the next three. And so he goes to Renault instead. So it's known as as probably the most cutthroat driver program in the sport. How has that been a detriment and how has that benefited?

Well, first off, let's get back to how it happens. And I think you mentioned the drivers before and everything was very hunky dory. Everyone got on, no one had a problem. And that's because they weren't competitive. I mean, you tell me any competitive teammates who are happy. I mean, there aren't any in Formula One. And we're certainly seeing that now with Lando Norris and Oscar Piastri fighting for wins. And it's going to be interesting and see how that dynamic shakes out over the next couple of races. Yeah. It's tricky, isn't it? It's a competitive team, driven for success. By having four drivers available, Red Bull are able to afford themselves that luxury of swapping them around, which is exactly what happened with Kaviyat. With pressure from a former Red Bull driver, Sebastian Vettel, they decided to take him out of play due to the fact that they had collided a couple of times and obviously putting Max in in the Spanish Grand Prix, the Max winning on his debut for Red Bull, it set a bit of a precedent. But yeah, it is cut through, but it is the very nature of being able to move those chess pieces around.

And I think that's the luxury that they have. It's not like other teams that have a very clear first and second driver and a reserve driver. If they call upon, if someone can't make it to the race, whether they be ill or whatever or injured, this This is very much a fluid situation where they're quite happy to move the pieces around to see as they wish as they see fit. And that probably leads to that cut-through environment, and they're not afraid to make decisions. That said, they haven't made any this summer when everyone was anticipating that they would. So maybe they're changing. Maybe they're becoming more of a traditional Formula One team and stick in the faith in number one and number two drivers. But we'll see what happens.

What do you think about that change, that non-change?

Yeah, I thought it was coming. I'm all ready to see this change. I thought they were going to swap stuff around. I think Red Bull, obviously offering the contract to Sergio Pérez in the hope of persuading him and taking the pressure off. And then, if anything, his performance has got worse. He had a glimmer of success in... I think it was Hungary, wasn't it, in qualifying?

Was it Hungary, qualifying? He crashed in Hungary. He crashed in qualifying.

Yeah. And then obviously the race, he came back. And there's no doubt he has the ability. It's just he's gone off the boil, so to speak, at the moment. And they've really shown incredible loyalty and faith in him, which I just don't think they would have done previously. I think that's probably because they don't trust the other two drivers to be any better than Sergio Perez in that car. So that's where they're at at the moment. A bit of an awkward one. And as I say, I think that had they had a young driver of the reputation of what Max had when he first came into the sport, they wouldn't have hesitated and put him in. But Liam Lawson has been sitting there waiting doing everything that he's been asked to, obviously impressed when he filled in for Ricardo. But for whatever reason, just isn't getting a look in at the moment, which is a shame because I'd like to see him in the car.

So last Monday, we're all sitting around thinking that Sergio is going to be replaced at the team, like a lot of us were.

He was the only person saying otherwise, wasn't he? Yeah, exactly. I wrote a piece on Autosport saying he's like that. You know the meme with the dog? And it That's very off-peast. But there's a dog in a hat and the whole room's on fire, right? And there's the thing that says-It's like, this is fine. This is fine, right? This is fine. And he's like, no, everything's fine. And we're like, yeah, but surely you must be feeling the pressure. No, no, No, it's okay. It's just fine. The team, no, everything's fine. Everything's fine. I'm like, It can't be fine. How are you dealing with this pressure just by saying this? And he was adamant that he was staying. So maybe he knew something that we didn't. But we were, weren't we, Tim? We were waiting for the news to come out, and there you go.

It didn't. How much do you think Carlos Slim got involved in any of those discussions? Because he is a pretty big backer of Sergio's, isn't he?

Yeah, I don't think in those particular ones. I think the initial decision is yes. And I know that he is a big asset. He is probably the biggest star in Mexico. And Red Bull, Mexico is a big market. So I do think that there was considerable factors to signing him in the first place and offering him a renewal. But I don't think any of those factors came into play this time around. I think it was more of a case of team looking, analyzing and thinking, if we make a change and the next person isn't any better, then we've just hosted his career. And I think he's 34, something like that. But it's not a good look, is it? Being able to put him in and do such a thing. So they're putting a lot of faith in him. As I say, my feeling, though, would have been that Liam Lawson would have got the nods. So that's what I was expecting.

Because it does feel like they're hanging this constructors' Championship around him because really he is going to be the one that It makes a difference of whether or not they win it or not.

Yeah, I think so. But then again, no win in four now. Who thought we would be saying that at this stage of the year? Good point. In Bahrain, when Max won, even with all that turmoil going on, we're all sitting there going, Oh, it's going to be a long season. How many races? What? 24? And you're like, Well, it's February. Was it February? March? Just turned into March.

Yeah, towards the end of February, we're all sitting around in Bahrain and we're all just like, Oh, this is going to be a long nine months.

This season goes into December. It's the longest season. The most races we've had. The guy won 23 last year. It felt like 23. 23 races. And he won. It was I've pared Pérez with a couple and obviously color science, but absolutely dominated last year. And we're thinking, Can they go even better this time around? And yeah, I enjoyed doing the book last year and seeing this success. And you got to that phase towards the end of the year is like, well, how many can you win? I don't know if you felt like this, Tim, but you go past the point of wanting someone else to win just to mix it up to thinking, well, yeah, let's just see how quick and how good Good. You can actually be. It's a bit like the Olympics, isn't it? You're watching and just think, how fast can you do the 100 meters?

Can you go a little faster? Yeah, exactly.

So, yeah, that became interesting. But at the moment, I think seeing more teams in contention for winning races is exactly what we need in Formula One at the moment.

It's a lot of fun. No question. And by the way, Ben, I can't wait for your McLaren book. We'll have to have you back because I'm a die in the wall McLaren fan. So I am a... Yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to hear about the Ron Dennis, Everything Must Be Gray years. It was funny because I went to the factory the other day and spoke to a member of staff, and we talked about the MTC, which is the building, the where their factory is called the MTC.

And he was telling me how it was a Sunday and he had been called in to work for some reason whatsoever. And not expecting to see anyone in the factory. All of a sudden, he spots Ron. And Ron's going around with a torch, and he's like, Underneath the building. And he's ensuring that all the wires and all the pipes underneath the MTC, stuff that no one's ever going to see, just to make sure they're all straight, to make sure everything's perfect, because he's got this massive OCD issue. So all the plumbing, all the electric cables, everything is perfect in line. There's none of this wobbly wiring or anything. And it was quite interesting, quite open, seeing just how much work and how much Ron is in that building and still in that building.

That's amazing. That's amazing. That's a great story, man. I mean, One of the... He's a powerful name in the sport, always has been. I think it's not hard to say that the new Ron Dennis is a Toto Wolf and Christian Horner, and their rivalry is fantastic. I think when I bring up this particular thing in Formula One, some people roll the rise, some people get excited. I think it's a great thing, drive to survive. I would say that Christian is probably right now has taken for Toto as the manager in the sport, the team principal, the focal point. And it starts, I think, and his profile starts to ascend in the same way that Gunther Steiner does in Drive to Survive Season 1. And all the big teams, with the exception of Red Bull, said, No, we're not doing that. Christian says, No, we're doing it. Absolutely, we're going to do it. And they're going to base it around Daniel Ricardo. I mean, Max Verstappen barely gets a mention in that season. It's all about Daniel and his driver decision and Christian managing the team. And it probably did wonders for Red Bull. What was the decision process for that to involve them when they were only going to go in with, I don't know, Haas, and I forget the other team they profile.

I think it was Renault.

It was funny, wasn't it, at the start, when you think back to that? But Red Bull say yes to a lot of things. And because this was marketing, and I think it's right up their street, the fact that they're never They're afraid to try anything. I mean, even today, they're doing a demo run with David Coulthard. And when was the last time Ferrari did a demo run or Aston Martin or Mercedes did one in New York at the start of the year? But Red Bull constantly doing things. And I think that's the impressive stuff. It's relentless. At Goodwood, they did a big 20th anniversary celebration. They had all the drivers there, all the cars there. It was a really good event. And they understand the benefit of marketing, probably better than any other team, I would say. And yeah, with the actual profiling of Daniel, he really loves it, doesn't he? And it's quite interesting you mentioned Christian and Daniel because they have created characters for themselves, haven't they? Daniel is always laughing and happy-go-lucky. Even when things are going wrong, he's laughing. And Christian has become this baddy. You love to hate baddy and just poke in Toto every now and again.

And it's made some wonderful TV moments, which we've all laughed about. And Gunther Steiner, he's like the pantomime aspect, isn't he? He's just sweary and makes everyone chuckle. So, yeah, I think it is interesting how they've created these characters, and then also acting and living into these personas. And there's a various different elements when Christian and Toto have arguments, I think that a lot of it is embellished because the TV cameras are there. I don't think had Drive to Survive cameras been present in those meetings, they wouldn't have acted in the same way. So they're acting up to these characters that they've created for themselves. But it's been a big success, obviously, from a show point of view, but also from F1's point of view, it's changed the demographic and the people coming to races. I was talking about this earlier on. I always use the Hungarian Grand Prix as an example with this. And pre-COVID, it was middle-aged men like myself going along wearing old Williams tops, a lot of people from Finland cheering on Kimi Raikinen. And then post-COVID, it's like everyone's 30 years younger. They're all wearing team kit, brand new team kit, and holding signs and all that stuff.

And it's night and day difference from the people who were going to races and who currently are coming to races. And it's refreshing. It's what other sports are desperate to do. Look at golf. They're desperate to attract a new, younger, diverse fan base. They can't do it. But Formula One have done it. And of course, they've tried to... And tennis, they've tried to replicate it with their own TV shows, but just without the same success that Formula One has. And that's why I don't roll my eyes with Drive to Survive. I actually quite embrace what's happened. I don't enjoy the prospect of having every conversation I have recorded or myself being put on TV and not knowing until it actually comes out, which is what happened in the first season. And I got quite a lot of stick on Twitter for just doing my job.

Tim's had that, too. Tim's been on it, too. For like two seconds.

I didn't even ask a question.

But you made it.

Made the cut.

That's the main thing, yeah. Hey, one race is better than no races. That's all I'm saying.

We had our whole podcast with Zack Brown recorded last year in Austin. And it was fun working with the crew. They do a really good job. They You don't really know they're there.

And there's the problem, Tim. There is the problem, because you could be discussing a line or what said or what you did last night. And All of a sudden you're aware of this boom mic. Yeah, just there. And you're like, What did I say? Did I say anything bad? Was I talking about last night? Am I going to look silly over something? And you have to think about what you said. But yeah, it's an interesting record everything, isn't it? That's what they do. They go around and record everything and edit it in a way.

I remember I was talking to Atmar in a paddock in Texas last year, and I can't remember what we were talking about. We were talking about something, and then all of a sudden you see this boom mic come in, and then I'm just like, Stop talking immediately. And then I was thinking like, Oh, no, what did I just say? I was like, Oh, my God.

It's a nightmare, isn't it?

What do you think, Ben, if we're sitting around the lunch table with all those very expensive sandwiches that put Red Bull over the top of the cost cap, if we're sitting around the lunch table, just the three of us working at Red Bull F1 team, what do you think our reviews of Christian Horner as a boss would be? What does he like to work for?

Yeah, I can answer this, I I think. He expects the most from his staff. There's quite a driven attitude. I mentioned it before about having that mentality of being well-beat as even when you're not well beaters. And so when I see staff come back from fly away as Canadian Grand Prix, they'll fly. This is actually true because I remember talking to Jonathan weekly about this, but it was an overnight flight, and we was all He's talking about what we're doing next and next couple of days. And it was like reconnecting with the family, et cetera. He goes, Oh, no. I'll go back. I'm going to go straight home, go back, have a shower, drop my stuff, and then I'll go back into work, into the factory. You'll be like, What? You've been away. Surely you get some time at home. It's like, No, no, no. It's just expected that you just go back to work. You've flown back, and then you're in the office. And that mentality just runs through the business. It's, No, no, we got to get ready for the next race. There's no stopping. I think that's really interesting because he weekly corner very hands-on people in terms of expecting so much of their staff, but also turning up for work.

They're in the factory all the time. And I don't think that's necessarily the case in other top teams. I don't know if Fred Vasseur is there every day. Toto Wolf can't be in Mercedes every day when he's living in Monaco. And I think that for me, I'm old school, and I just think that by having a team principal in the office sets a benchmark and an attitude for other people to follow. If the boss is in, I should be in. If he's still working, I should be working. I think that probably happens in the smaller teams. I think we're seeing that in Haas. We definitely see it at Williams. That day-to-day management and being seen to be present in the office, working, going around the shop floor, talking to people, I think that's quite important. I think staff do buy into that. Consequently, We're going to work hard. We're going to definitely knuckle down the bosses here. And I just think that feeds through the whole of the organization. He expects so much of you, but that's because he's giving a lot himself. That's probably the best way that I would describe it.

Okay. Fair? Do you think he's a fair manager?

Yeah, I think so. I think that those that have been with the team for a long time. I mean, in all F1 teams, there's a high turnover of staff, and some departments are higher than others. But if you look at the technical team at Red Bull, they've all been there long as years. Jonathan weekly has been there, I can't remember, was it 18 years? Yeah, 18 years. That's a long time. You were there from roughly the same. There's people still working on Max's car that were there before Christian arrived. There's a lot of long-serving employees there, and you don't get that at many times.

Go ahead.

No, I was going to divert the conversation. I wanted to talk about Jonathan Wheatley, obviously. Same here. You take it. That was big news that came out the other day, and I think it caught quite a few of us off guard as well. Ben, there's been a lot of turnover at that team over the last few months, and it just looks like you're taking a lot of the strongest assets that Red Bull Racing has, and they're walking out the door and they're going to other teams, which is going to make other teams strong as well. From an outsider looking in, it looks like that they're having trouble holding on to key staff.

Yeah, it does, doesn't it? It looks like this is the house of cards. It's all beginning to fall. And I think that's what other teams will be looking to say as well. But then the other side of the coin is the fact that you could say it's just going in full circle. And Adrian Newey's departure was on his terms. He wanted a break. He's now got the freedom to pick and choose what he does next. He's been at that team and working in Formula One for so long, you wouldn't begrudge him some time out. With Jonathan Weekly, it's a very similar situation, but he's taken that promotion. I think that's a really good signing from Aldi. I think he's the right man. If I was drawing up a list, he would have been top of my list to lead that team forward. Aldi, a little bit frustrated, perhaps, with a little bit of lack of progress, missing out on Carla of signs and knowing that they needed to get a lot more serious with their operation, and they obviously have done. It's really interesting. I think the weekly departure is probably going to be felt more than the new week departure internally at Red Bull, partly because Adrian's involvement over the years has diminished.

He was still very much involved and coming to races, but the whole design team had moved on a little bit. He was the guy that would get the final approval on designs and say, yes or no, we're going to persist in this route. But the actual work had been done by the guys below him, if you know what I mean. Whereas with weekly's position, I mentioned it before, him flying back from Canada and going straight into the office. That was leading by example, and he was responsible for everything, logistics, team performance, pitch stops were Red Bore consistently the quickest and investing in pitch stops, whereas other teams haven't done that. He transformed that team. And he was also the guy, remember Michael Massey and talking to him in '21 and putting the pressure on the FIA. He's a very influential figure within that team, but also the glue that brought everyone together. So all the engineers and the pit wall, he was the guy in the middle that would pull all that together. And that's why I think that him going, and there's no, as far as I can see, no obvious replacement for him.

And that's why I think will have a greater impact on the team, the difficulty is then if they start listening to the voices from outside, say, team's collapsing, everyone's leaving, you run the risk of having a ship that's destabilized. I'm not talking full scale mutiny, but of course, it is a situation where you begin to wonder, hang on, am I in the right department here? Is this right? Is everything progressing? And that then feeds up to the drivers, and you've got a situation like Max hearing all these people leaving, a little bit of disharmony. It It doesn't take long before those rumors to start circulating again. And then you're dealing with the negative press, Oh, Max wants to leave, et cetera, et cetera. And that's going to be a tricky one for Red Bull to navigate. And I think the way they navigated the Adrian thing was very good. Big show of support in Miami when the announcement was made. And yes, don't worry, it's all cool. We've got a ready raid replacement. Everything's strong. But in this situation with Jonathan going, I don't think there is a ready raid replacement at the moment. And it will be interesting to see how the team recover from him leaving at the end of this year.

Yeah. It's been quite the season for Red Bull. It looked like Christian Horner might lose his position. How safe do you think he is now?

I think he is safe. I think that they've gone through everything. He's confident that he's got the support. And I think that Red Bull, the Thai owners and the Austrian owners now, having looked at the situation, knowing that they're no longer winning a canter, need to knuckle down and need stability in order for that team to move forward, and also to encourage the drivers, Max, to stay. Their internal fractures relationships aren't good for anyone, and they need to maintain a level of harmony now and to move that team forward. That team is something that Christian has built from the moment that he walked in, and he deserves to applaud it for all the success the team He's been to every single race. It is his team. And so I think that Red Bull needs to respect that and just allow him to get on with running that team just until everything settles down. And of course, then they can make a decision. What happens down the line? The ice cream man's turned up.

I was like, Do you have that as a ringtone?

I've got no control over this, by the way. When the ice cream man turns up, he just turns up.

So Big neighborhood hit, huh?

Yeah, big time. Do you have the guys that come around in the vans? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And it's funny because I don't know if it's like this where you are, but there's also the guys that sharpen your lawnmower blades, and they run the same song. So a bunch of kids run out. It's like, oh, no, it's just the blade sharpener.

No way. Yeah. What a disappointment. I had so many years growing up running to the street corner, and it Yeah, it was the blade sharpener.

My dad's out there with a lawn. We're like, great. This is fantastic. What great timing.

I can't believe that exists as a business model. So go around and sharpen lawn blades. That's amazing. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Ben, I think you've been so gracious with your time. And again, the book is called Growing Wings: The Inside Story of Red Bull Racing. It's absolutely fascinating. The one last thing I want to ask, and obviously, Tim, I'll yield the floor to you. I just want one last thing. Is Max staying, in your opinion?

For how long?

That's the question. Is he staying next season and is he staying into 2026?

I think he He's staying for next season. I think '26 remains unknown. I think that it's really difficult to pick a team based on... He's only got insight into what goes on at Red Bull. Whatever Mercedes are telling him or Ferrari Ferrari or whoever else. It's only their word, whereas he actually knows the internal workings of Red Bull. Be careful for what you wish for. I mean, you saw that with Daniel leaving and going to Renault, you mentioned earlier on, Adam, you've got to be careful about where you go, and picking the right team at the right moment is obviously key. He would have seen what Sebastian did when he left and went to Ferrari as well. And the other case in point is probably Fernando Alonso. And on the other side of the coin is Lewis Hamilton that seems to have made one jump at the right time. And let's see what happens with Ferrari next year. Long answer short, I think he's staying for next year. I'm not so sure for '26. I don't probably see him seeing out his contract to '28. That's far too in the distance. But yeah, I see him staying where he is at the moment because Red Bull are still able to produce him a car that's capable of fighting for wins.

So I think that he's probably going to stay there.

Ben, I just want to say thanks so much for doing this, man. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you're really busy. I know you got a lot going on. But yeah, no, thanks so much, man.

I really appreciate it.

I'm going to get some ice cream. Yeah, I was just going to say you got to run in and get the ice cream guy before he runs away.

No, no, no.

I got those blades ready. Yeah, Ben, thank you very much. And we'll put a link in the description so people wouldn't know where to buy your book. How's that? Cool.

Yeah, nice. Thank you very much indeed..