Tom Spooner, welcome to the show, man.

Thanks for having me. Happy to be here, Sean.

It's a real honor to have you sitting here. I truly being that going through, going through your outline and the little bit of research that I did myself on you, it's just. Wow, we've got a lot to talk about. You've had a one hell of a career in the military and I'm just. I'm really excited that you're here, man. And so this has been a long time coming.

Absolutely. And I'm equally excited to be here, too.

Good, good. But I always start off with an introduction.

Okay.

And so here we go. Retired master sergeant, 21 years in the US Army, 16 of those in special operations. Veteran of the Gulf War and the global war on terrorism. Five years in the 82nd as an infantryman. Six years in 7th Special Forces Group as an 18 Charlie. Ten years in Delta as an operator, assaulter and sniper. Twelve combat deployments, one to Afghanistan, eleven to Iraq. 40 total months of time in combat at a team level that is almost four years straight. Struggled with chemical dependency, TBI and unprocessed trauma, aka PTSD. You've been sober for 31 years. Congratulations. I just hit two. Yes, my wife's almost at 14, married for 33 years. Congratulations. And a father of two young men. And finally, you are the co founder and president of Warriors Heart for the last eight years where you've assisted 3000 plus warriors with their healing journey. We've got a lot to talk about.

Yes, we do.

But sober for 31 years.

Yeah. That's crazy, isn't it?

You don't. You know, and you know what I love is that conversation. You know, we had a breakfast. You've been. You were sober in service.

Yeah.

And especially where we come from, I don't know how it is, how your experience was, but that was frowned upon right where I came from. And I can't imagine the amount of pressure that you felt to go tie one on with the boys, you know, and how, like, we're going to get into that. But I'm really curious, like, how did you deal with that?

Because one of the easiest ways to deal with, well, first of all, I mean, we'll go through it like you said in the story, but I had a really solid foundation, you know, before I got into spec ops and, you know, and all of that, whenever it was a lot more difficult, more difficult, more accepted kind of deal. But I also just came back to the, like, I'm me. Like, yeah, you know, here's one. Right? Like, well, I don't trust anybody that I don't drink with.

Yeah.

You know? And then I would say, well, I don't trust anybody that I haven't fought with. So are we gonna get over this, or. We gonna what? You know? So that's the we talked about this morning. It's like, I didn't get sober and become a hippie, you know? You know what I mean? I got sober and became even a more badass warrior. So that's the thing. We can either sit here and pray, or we can go outside and fight, too. That's cool. I'm equally. Would love to do either one. So that was what helped me balance it and the way I got sober. And the men that I was surrounded with that were sober also, that were like, three jumps in World War Two, medics, you know what I mean? Four tour Vietnam vets, you know, all of those guys, you know what I mean, with sobriety. So I. You know, I mean, I was. Was trained appropriately, you know. Was it difficult? Yeah, difficult at times. There's some funny times. And, you know, what would the typical.

Response be to, well, I don't trust anybody I haven't fought with?

Yeah.

I mean, that really. That would have thrown me back on my feet immediately.

Yeah. Cause I meant it, too. Cause, you know, I mean, I'm a little on edge. Cause I get it. I mean, I was that guy at one time, you know what I mean? Before I got sober. But he usually just kind of settled things down because it put it into perspective. Like, not that I can whip all these people's asses, but I can guarantee you wouldn't want to have to fight me again. You know, I might not win, but, yeah. And I was absolutely willing. You know? It wasn't just something I was saying, you know, so they had to pause and be like, hmm, okay, fair enough. But a lot of people, that's why I always loved. I never led with it, you know what I mean? I let them know me, especially on active duty. It's like, hey, here's this guy's resume. Here's. You know, see what he's like on the team. Like, okay, really? Wow. We want this guy on the team, whatever. And then they usually, at some point, find out, oh, he doesn't drink. Right. That's weird. You know, or whatever. And then it comes into those kind of conversations, but, yeah.

Well, thank you for sharing that, you know, so I have a. Before we get to in the weeds with your story, there's a. Have a. I have a patreon account. They're our top supporters. They're the reason I'm sitting here. They're the reason you're sitting here. They. I mean, they're. They're who helped me grow the show. And so one of the benefits that I give them is I tell them who's coming on the show early.

Okay.

And I give them an opportunity to ask a question, ask the guest a question. And I thought this was a really good question. This is from Brian Watkins. Given you have two sons, what's the best advice you would give them? Generally for life, but then more specifically, perhaps if going off to war, what would you say to help them prevent potential future post traumatic stress?

Yeah, break it down for me. Like, the first part, give them to life, which a lot of it goes into the war piece also, but for life, the number one thing is like, hey, be a decent human being, you know, just right off the bat, do more good than you do bad. Be as kind as you can be, you know, I mean, just on that side of the house, like, be respectful, you know? And I was raised country, you know? Yes, sir. No, ma'am. You know what I mean? Just be respectful, you know, of yourself and of others. Be confident, you know, is a really big thing. And know who you are and what you stand for. That's a really big deal, especially as young men or, you know, growing up. I mean, look how long it took me to figure out who I was and what I stood for, you know? But having that in mind and having loyalty chain in mind, like, hey, who are my people on this planet? Like, what is my priority? You know? And that being families first, you know? And, uh, so that would be, uh. Well, and then the other side of that is like, uh, hey, you need to be dangerous.

This world is, as we know, not just because of war and everything. Like, it's tough, man. Yeah. Like, you're gonna deal with tragedy, you're gonna deal with loss, you're gonna deal with, uh, success, you know, everything, you know? And, uh, it's. You gotta be tough. Not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, you know? And I have two sons, you know, so they're men. So be physically fit, you know what I mean? Be ready, protect. I think that answered part of that first question, definitely. And then. And then when you're going, if they were to ever go to war or anybody else that's going to war is like, hey, man, you, like, you got to know who you are and what you stand for, you know? And then again, understand the loyalty chain. The loyalty chain's a little bit different, you know, stateside, it was my family, you know, was first, but then deployed, you know, the family is. That's not in my picture anymore. You know, it's buried down deep, you know? But what's my loyalty chain now is my brothers to the left and right of me, you know what I mean? And the Americans that I'm protecting, and then the host nation folks, you know, in that order, the innocent host nation folks, you know, so, yeah, that would be having all of that in alignment.

And whenever it's time to fight, you fight.

Yeah.

You know, and there are no rules, and you be just as ruthless again, it comes back to where we talked about before, that decision making process. You know, if someone meets the criteria, you know, I mean, of that violence act, then. Then there's no rules. There's, you know, address the threat until it's no longer a threat, you know? And what about.

Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah.

What about getting ahead of PTSD?

So getting ahead of it, that's so the getting ahead of it is so what everybody calls PTSD, for me, that makes the most sense is just unprocessed trauma. So number one is to have tools, tools in the toolbox to address all those emotions, you know, because that's really what we're talking about, you know, with all those kind of traumatic events, post traumatic, is, you know, I mean, for me, it was a super huge thing to have a power greater than myself, you know, to have some sort of spirituality, you know, that I can tap into, because I don't care who you are. In my personal experience, there will come a day whenever the world, the events, whatever, completely overwhelms me, and I don't have the. My own power, you know what I mean? To get through it, you know what I mean? So I have to be able to. Logic says if I don't have the power to deal with a situation, then I need to be able to get access more power from somewhere else. Whether it's religion, whether it's spirituality, whether. Whatever, you know, mean your ideas, concepts, there's a bunch of them out there.

But have something, you know, even if it's just a belief in your family, whatever, you know, whatever it is greater than me. When I'm feeling sorry for myself, that's. That's been a huge thing for me. And then also, don't. Don't wait. Like you said, preparing is one thing. Like, have an emotional toolbox, you know what I'm saying? Like, deal with public speaking, you know, I mean, there's all these different things that you can do and all these different personal development stuff, you know, online, they call it emotional intelligence, right? And all these different things. It's like. And what that is is like you're dealing with uncomfortable situations, you know? So it's just like any kind always revert back to training, obviously, because the military and my trained are untrained, you know, if I don't have any emotional training, then a hugely emotional event occurs. I'm gonna be overwhelmed by it, you know? But if I've got some training and I've got some tools, I can at least start chipping away at it, you know, and potentially handle it on my own, you know, with my own toolbox. So I think that's a. That's a huge thing.

And then, obviously, if I have something bigger than that, then I'm going to need assistance with it, whether that's talking to a buddy, whether it's talking to, again, the spiritual aspect, or a licensed professional, you know, and, like, be just. You know, no one hesitates to go to the gym. If they want to be in better physical shape, they go to the gym, they do all those different things. But we talk a lot about mind, body, and spirit, you know what I mean? Because I have to be strong in each one of those, and the only way for me to be strong in those is to train in them.

Yeah.

So pick out something that whatever you're into. Heck, that could be yoga. You know what I mean? It addresses and is one of the treatment modalities for PTSD as far as access and emotions through the body, you know, so. And it's a good workout, you know, and all that other good stuff for you. But I get to rambling sometimes.

I'd like to. I'd like to chime in on that, if you don't mind. You know, I mean, when it comes to getting ahead of it, you know, the gwat generations that fought in that war, you and I and a lot of the people that have been on the show, you know, especially at the beginning, you know, like when I left in 2006, there were no resources. There were nobody. Nobody was talking about this. Nowadays you have gentlemen and women who have spent 20 plus years in a wartime environment. You yourself, a thousand, a thousand direct action rates, 40 months plus in combat. And there are all kinds of people with more war experience than we've ever seen in the history of the country, and lots and lots of respected warriors are talking about what it took them to get, what methods they've used to get better and dive into this show, dive into other podcasts and listen to those methods. And I would say the one commonality, not the one, but a major commonality, is addiction. It's alcohol, it's pills, it's narcotics, it's all of that. And most of the time when I'm talking to somebody, including myself, I've had my own suicide attempt.

Drugs and alcohol, or one or the other seems to be involved.

Oh, yeah.

And we both come from a team environment where that runs rampant, you know? And sometimes the team pushes pills on you, sometimes your friends push pills on you. Sometimes you just get whatever happened, you know, the booze, like, get ahead of that shit. And if you get ahead of that, then you're ten times ahead of the power curve of what everybody else is gonna be.

Absolutely.

You know, and there's so many methods. I mean, spirituality, religion, therapy, psychedelics, I mean, warriors heart, what Tom's doing, all secure. I mean, get your. Get your family right, get your wife right, get your relationships right and get rooted in them before you get out, because the boys aren't going to support you, man. They have a job to do. Exactly. And they're going to continue on that train. They're not there to baby your ass.

No.

And they don't fucking get it either.

Because they're still there out. Yeah.

And so you need to set up your new team before you leave and get them ready to receive what's coming.

Absolutely.

But I just wanted to chime in on that. But let's get into your story. So before we do, everybody gets a gift. It's probably the only reason you're here, but. No, I'm just kidding. But, yeah, those are vigilance elite gummy bears. Legal in all 50 states. It's just gummy bears.

Yeah. Thank you.

Just candy.

There's all kinds of gummy bears, you know? Yeah, it's a good one. Oh, that's what they all are. Thank you.

You're welcome. But. Thanks, but. All right, Tom, let's get into it. So I want to just do a complete life story on you.

Okay?

So starting from childhood, getting into the military, and then what happened afterwards, all the way up to warriors heart and beyond. So. Be a long day.

I'm 54, Sean, so that's a good guy. And I've had a lot of experiences, so.

Yeah, yeah, I know you have, and those are important to document. And I know you, you know, we just. You have a ton of respect in the community, you know, and, you know, I don't. I know you probably don't want to hear this, but you've been called a legend, multiple, you know, all the time. And you just. Younger guys that are coming in, look up to you. Guys that are in, look up to you. I mean, you just. You're very, very well respected warrior, and a lot of people want to hear what you have to say. And so, with that being said, let's start with where did you grow up?

Yeah, before that, I got to say is, like, I'm super proud of everything that you just said and did, you know? And a lot of people comment that I hear and get, and it's a great one, is like, man, you're so humble. You know what I mean? You're kind. It's like, absolutely, I am, man, because I know that I ride on the shoulders of giants. Like, I can't really. The only thing that I can take credit for in my life is my willingness and a lot of hard work. But everything else, the men in the story, you'll see, like, the men that have been in my life, those that went before me and helped me get to where I was, you know what I mean? That's why it's super easy for me to. To be humble and grounded in where I am and know who I am and what I stand for. And even whenever it comes to that, combat time and everything, man, there's a generation of guys, like you said, that's in right now or that have gotten out over the last couple years, that double everything that I've done. Wow. I mean.

I mean, literally. So I'm proud to be, again, everything that I've done. Not gonna minimize myself by any means. And I want to say that I know a lot of guys that have even more than I do, and I can't wait to hear from them one day, you know, when they come out. So I just. It was important for me to put that out and, hey, guys, you've heard.

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I grew up in this, in a small town called Belglade, Florida. Have you heard of Belglade before?

Is that south of Okeechobee?

It is.

Whoa. That's a rough town.

Rough town.

That's a very rough town.

Very rough.

Was it rough back then?

Oh, yeah.

What year? What years are we?

I was born in 1970, so I was in Belglade from 70 to 87, so 17 years I lived there.

Wow.

Yeah. It's sugarcane fields, cornfields. It's a rough place.

Yes, it is.

And how I grew up is middle class. You know, my dad worked at everybody, you know, was farming of some sort. You know, my dad worked at the sugar cane mill because, I mean, literally sugar canes all around there. And he worked on computers even back then. So that was like Gen one computer kind of stuff, you know, and, but that's what my dad did and he worked there and my mom was, she helped out with the schools, you know, with school teaching and stuff at that time too. So when I grew up, my dad was alcoholic also, whenever I was growing up, wasn't an abusive alcoholic, but, you know, he wasn't around a lot of times just do and I don't. My parents, you know, they did the absolute best that they could with what they have and I hold them in no blame for my life, you know, they taught me how to work hard. They taught me everything that I am today, you know, fundamentally. So I have a younger brother and a younger sister. My younger brother is five years younger than me and my sister is eleven years younger than me.

So we had quite the spread, quite the spread there with that. And let's see. So growing up, man, I've always wanted to join the military like my whole life, primarily because my uncle was a three tour Vietnam vet and my grandfather was a world War two vet.

Were you close with them too?

Yeah, really close. My uncle, because he was still on active duty. He was just that, you know, me, starry eyed hero guy that was in Germany, you know, whatever, doing all this, you come and visit, you know, he'd bring me all my paratrooper t shirts, you know, us paratrooper, death from above, you know, and uh, and, but my grandfather on my mom's side was, yeah, super, super close with him. Yeah, really tight. Always take me fishing at all the games. Him and my grandmother on my mother's side was very influential. My grandfather on my dad's side, you know, he was in law enforcement for 35 years, you know, during some really, really tough years, you know, he was already a law enforcement officer. So they, you know, they kept some of them here for law enforcement and send the rest of the men to overseas, you know, so that was both, I had law enforcement and military on both sides of my family. That made it kind of rough too, as a kid growing up, whenever your grandfather's this legend, you know, and you get in trouble for shoplifting something from true value hardware store, you know.

Yeah, yeah. Did that happen?

Yeah, it happened.

Was it worth it?

No, it wasn't worth it, man. It was horrible, but it was, yeah, so, yeah, so that's kind of the, my family dynamics, you know, at that time.

And what kind of stuff were you into, man?

I love, my whole life, I love playing football. I was this, I was a little skinny kid, you know what I mean? My natural build is very lean and skinny. And then when I was a kid, I was just this little skinny kid. But I loved playing football. Looking back on it, one of the reasons why I loved it so much, too, is it created a construct. There was a system, there was rules. There was things you could do and not do. It was consistent. It was regular. Because my life was a bit chaotic growing up, you know, and I grew up, you know, in the seventies and, you know, and in the early eighties, you know, where both parents work and, you know, it was just like lord of flies, you know, a lot of times, you know what I mean? With all the neighborhood kids and the older kids, the younger kids, you know what I mean? It was a lot of survival stuff going on, you know? And again, wasn't poor by any means. We were just about middle class, you know, always had plenty to eat, you know, but when, that's where I really got my work ethic from my dad, because he'd worked the hell out of us, you know what I mean?

From yard work to getting stuff done to additions and that kind of stuff. So I've been. Been working since I was ten years old, and meaning working for money, you know, like getting a lawnmower business. Not a business, but just cutting grass for folks in south Florida, you know, it needs grass needs cut two times a week, you know, so, yeah, so, I mean, I've been working hard my whole life.

I mean, you grew up in a rough town. Did you deal with a lot of crime or bullying or.

There was. I mean, they call it bullying now, you know what I mean? And it was then, but it was just kind of how it was. The older kids and the bigger kids always whipped your ass, you know what I mean? And you always had to figure out how to avoid them, and, you know, it was just kind of part of life, like, hey, figure it out, man. Like, would you defend yourself? What's that?

Would you defend yourself, man?

We have fighting. I mean, violence is something that has been throughout my. My life, you know, as far as that whole survive figuring out how to survive instinct. And, you know, back in those days, like I said, they didn't even use the term bullies or anything. It was like, well, get stronger, you know what I mean? Like, learn how to fight better, you know what I mean? Which was actually really good, you know?

Well, I'm just curious. What would your parents. I mean, would you. What would your parents tell you to do in this, in those situations, or would they even know that was going on?

Yeah, most of the time, they didn't even know that was going on because it wasn't like some beatings, you know, coming home with black eyes. It was just like, you know, a couple punches, you know, in the parking lot, you know what I mean? Or get. Or the smart ones would just be all body shots, you know, so not to mark up the face. And, uh. But a lot of times, parents, you know, I mean, they. They really didn't know, especially during those times. I mean, the kids were just kind of on their own in. In everyone's household, you know, and we were just tearing up the neighborhoods and stuff, but it was. Yeah.

Did you have. What was your greatest fear as a child?

Wow, that's a good question. Greatest fear as a child would be that something would happen to my mother.

Really?

Yeah.

Do you know why you feared that the most?

Um. Hang on a second. That. Because I never really thought about it. What was my greatest fear? Because that wasn't a conscious thought. That was me thinking of it right now. Looking back, my greatest fear growing up was that the older boys were going to whip my ass, you know what I mean? Who just lived right across the street, you know what I mean? So how do you e and e around this? But that was. That was the. The greatest. A big fear. Yeah, that would be a net at the time.

All right. You know. Do you think that your father's trouble with alcohol affected you in any way?

It did. We didn't have a great relationship growing up. And being an alcoholic myself, you may not understand why now. You know what I mean? At the time. You know what I mean? Like, he didn't have the ability to engage in meaningful conversations, in depth about emotions, about preparing, like one of those questions that he was asked, you know what I mean? How would you prepare for something he didn't? You know, so none of those kind of conversations. He was just the rule enforcer, you know what I mean? His household. And again, no blame to him, knowing what I do now. But it was. Yeah, didn't really. We didn't have a great relationship as far as learning, other than me learning how to work hard, you know, makes sense.

Makes sense. What about, you know, you had mentioned you were really into football.

Yeah.

Would you consider yourself an athlete back then, or was it more of a hobby?

No, I was. Yeah, I was an athlete. Cause I wanted to be better in football. And so I hit the weights, you know, at a young age, you know what I mean? So I hit the gym. So, I mean, I was putting in hard work at the gym. And, I mean, I was in small town south Florida. Football is religion, you know what I mean, it is what everybody in the town talks about, you know what I mean? So it's really all that anyone ever cares about. So. So being good at that, you know, was a good thing, you know, and always, you know, I wanted to be stronger, I wanted to be faster. I wanted to be all those things. And again, I was a skinny kid, so it. It took a lot, a lot of work.

So natural ability or personal drive?

I had some natural ability in there, for sure. I just was lacking on the size and strength a lot of times, as far as that piece. Yeah. But I was, and I got, you know, working out has always been good medicine, you know, for me as far as self medication, right. We always talk about everybody's got it, like, working out, always sorted out, my emotions sorted out, you know, we got my energy levels back down to not being, like, super pissed off or super sad or super anything, you know, just, hey, just get tired enough, you know, and you'll be kind of all right. But. And I just. I love lifting weights, man. You know what I mean? I just loved everything about it. But I always had that, like I said, that desire to be in the military, which meant you had to be strong, you know, you had, you know, I mean, like I said, I'm in my fifties. Like, Rambo was the thing, you know? I mean, Chuck Norris, like, man, like, that was my. You know what I'm saying? That's what I. That's what I grew up on, man. And not just.

Only did I just want to be in the military, I wanted to be in the ranger regiment. Like, you knew exactly what you wanted to be. Oh, yeah, man, I wanted to be a ranger. And then that, like, got solidified whenever, because, you know, technology was minimal, you know, back then, it was, you know, didn't even have cordless phones, you know? So it's, uh. So it was just magazines and articles and reading stuff about it and tv shows and movies, you know, and. But then one time, they had, you know, army recruiters had some guys come in, and they had some rangers come in, and I just remember looking at these guys, you know, and they're at that time, you know, this is the late eighties, you know, they're all high and tights, lean, you know what I mean? And this one guy, he talked about something just this simple. He was like, he was a little cocky, e five, you know what I mean? He was just like, yeah, I'm a ranger, and this is my house. He had his ruck on. He's like, everything that is valuable in my life is in that, and I take it wherever I go.

I was like, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. I want everything that is about me to be in one pack and that. Yeah, man. So I was all. I was all in on the ranger thing. Like, that's all I ever wanted to do. What's the hilarious thing about it? It's the one thing that I never got to do in my whole military career.

That's interesting. I don't recall saying that in the timeline. Yeah, but. So when did you. When did you finally enlist?

So my uncle and my grandfather, being the big influencers that they are, they're both enlisted guys, right? And so they're like, hey, because they knew I'm gonna join the army, I wanted to enlist right out of high school, like, period in the story. That's what I wanted to do. And they both said, it's like, hey, well, if you're gonna join, then you need to be an officer. I'm like, well, I don't want to be an officer. They're like, okay, you know? Cause how I was raised, like, you did what you were told by men that you respected, you know? And I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'll go be an officer. Which. So I got some college time. But again, I was. I was a mess, man. I was an angry, emotional mess, you know, already an alcoholic. You know what I mean? I was already that guy that always drank too much, you know, that guy that you're like, bro, for real?

What age did that start?

Probably 16. Yeah, man, that was a huge part, you know? And the thing about. Because it's such a huge part of the story, you know, all the way to warriors heart. Like, as we go through the story, it's like, my life's work is now at warriors heart. Like, everything that I experienced along the way is put into practice there. But, like, even, like, alcohol, man, was the only thing that made me feel normal. Like, if I wasn't drinking, I was full of restless, irritable, discontent, shame, guilt, remorse, anxiety, panic attacks. Like, that's what it felt like to not have a drink at me, afraid all the time, like, all that. But it presented as like, oh, I'm just this shy country boy. You know what I mean? He doesn't say much. It's like, yeah, because I had all of that going on inside of me, and when I took some drinks, it all just settled in, and it just made me feel like how I thought you felt, you know? What? I mean, it's like I just was normal and I could come out and play.

Yeah.

And that's what made me an alcoholic, you know, because there's some people that are just drink too much and are hard drinkers, and there's alcoholics who. There's a chemical reaction that occurs, you know what I mean? And it's a physiological thing. So if I didn't have to feel as bad as I felt just by taking drinks, then I'm going to do that as often as I can, you know? And I did. And I'd be lying to you if I didn't say I had a ton of good times drinking. Cause I did, you know, I mean, I had a whole bunch of really, really good times drinking. Then those times got less and less, and then at the end of my drinking, it was nothing but bad. But at those times, yeah, from the time 16 on, man, I was just partying, being a teenager and drinking too much. So then I go to college. So I was at a community college, but I was participating in Florida state, their ROTC program. Cause they had an exchange there. I didn't make the grades to be at Florida State, but I was at there. So I got to go through jump school.

So I went through airborne school as a Cadidia, as a cadet.

Oh, really?

I sure did. In 1989. And so I went to jump school, and then, of course, like I said, I already was wanting to do it, and I'd been to, like, a ROTC basic camp, you know, and that was kind of whatever. Okay, good. And. And so. But then my grades were going horribly. I was getting into more trouble, you know, it was just bad. And so I left Tallahassee after I'd been to jump school. Successfully completed that, and then. But I wasn't contracted, and I didn't have a scholarship, so I was just this dude that had gone to airborne school.

So, hold on. When you went through airborne, was it all cadets or you mix them with active duty guys?

Mix them all. Just a regular airborne class.

So what was that like, being introduced to that?

It was super hard because I was just this dumbass civilian guy.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Who. Yeah, I mean, I was a tough kid. I was in shape and everything, but I hadn't ever had to do any military stuff, you know, like, hey, when I got tired of running, I'd stop, you know, I didn't know what it was like to like, yeah, if you stop running, you're going to get kicked out of this course, you know? So having to be pushed. Yeah, but it was, it was a lot. But the cool thing about it is that uncle of mine, that he was still on active duty at that time. And on my fifth jump, on my graduating jump, him and his best friend, we got to do my fifth jump together. Like, he was number one, I was two, and his buddy was number three at every school. So it was epic, man. You know what I mean? It was. And those guys, they had been static line jumpers their whole career. Vietnam vets, you know, and, um, like, you know, over 200 static line jumps. Wow. Amazing things. Still upright, you know. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, but that, it was a normal class went and did that and then didn't make it there anymore, uh, school wise, more trouble.

And so I just went to the recruiter. I don't know if you got a recruiter story, but most people have recruiter stories. So I'm super cocky, you know. I mean, I'm what, 20 years old, you know, and, um, been to airborne school, you know, so I'm, I was already ridiculously cocky anyway. And so I go into the recruiter and I was like, hey, man, get me on the next thing smoking out of here. So I signed up on a two year eleven x ray contract because again, my plan was I was going to enlist. Got me off probation early also.

What were you. Hold on, what were you on probation for?

So just normal redneck stuff from shooting signs with a shotgun in the city limits, you know.

Nice.

Yeah. So, so got off probation early. That was a good thing. But I signed up and I, and I, in my mind, you know, mean, hey, I'm already aero qualified. I'm going to be an eleven Bravo infantryman. I'm going to go to, at the time they called it rip ranger indoctrination program, you know, and get into the ranger regimen. Like that's what was happening next. So the recruiter. So I signed a two year eleven x ray, which mean not the identifier of what you were going to do. I'm like, okay, what does that mean? It's like, yeah, you'll be eleven Bravo. It's just this paperwork. I'm like, so then I'm at basic training while I'm at basic training. That was in summer of 1990. Gulf war kicks off or whenever Iraq invaded Kuwait. So that kicks off while I'm at basic. So now, you know, wow, every. I mean, like, I was still in replacement whenever that happened. And so, okay, now that there's a war going on and, man, like I said, me in the military, so at that time in my life, I had read every, probably every book there ever was written about the Vietnam War, meaning the guys that were in the Vietnam War, you know, all the Rangers, all that.

I mean, that was all I could consume, you know? And so in my mind, like, that was the deal, was trying to get to war. My heroes have gone to war. This parts, you know, it's like, you join the military, it's like, yeah, I want to go to go to war. And so that kicked off. And, man, when I joined the military, it was like home, you know? I mean, I finally fit, you know, a hundred percent. And I was good at it, you know? So it was just because a lot of, most of the time in my life at that time, I really didn't fit wherever I was. You know what I mean? Like the college guys, even with the athletes, you know, I just kind of didn't, like, get my spot. When I got into the military, that was my spot. And then, so then we switched over from f four binning. It went basic. And then ait one site unit training. So you did them both there. So the advanced training, they give you your regular mos. So they made me an eleven hotel. I'm like, what is that? No, I'm eleven Bravo.

They're like, no, you're eleven hotel. You were an x ray. So that means we get to pick. I didn't know that. So eleven hotel. I'm like, okay, well, what's that? And it's like, yes, a tow missile gunner, you know, and vehicles. I was like, stupid, but okay, well, I still go to rip. And they're like, nope. They don't take heavy gunnery. They knocked out that part. So then I couldn't go to rip. So now I can't go. So now the dream has done, you know what I mean? Now this part of it, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, totally screwed. I was super pissed off and everything, but, I mean, nothing else that I could do. And so anyway, make it through basic. Ait now is eleven hotel. And. And then they had me. They didn't. My orders. I mean, everything was all screwed up. Like, my airborne wings weren't in there because in my mind like, hey, I was going to go to the 82nd, you know, airborne unit, and. And they had me like, slotted for first. Riley can. Fort Riley, Kansas, like the big red one. And I was like, what is going on?

So my uncle was still an active duty at that time. He, you know, he. No, he had gotten out of active duty but it was still working for the government. Short version, he got me orders. The 82nd.

Nice.

Yeah, so I was going from there to the 82nd, but prior to that, you know, just like any good movie, you know, what do you do before you go to war? Like, you have to get married, right? Because you get married, you go to war, you get killed, and then you're just a big hero, you know, and everybody loves you, you know? That's how I saw a life, anyway. And so. So I got married, and so I. The. My wife. I've met my wife. My senior year of high school, my parents got divorced. I went to a different high school, and I met her, and I still remember the first day I ever met her. Like, it was one of the weirdest things in my life as far as, like, I can still picture it in my head the first time that I ever saw her, like. And it was just like, yeah, I need to be with that person, you know? And so that's still with that person. And to date, I wonder about her decision making process, you know what I mean? As far as sticking with me and.

Well, hold on. Where did you guys meet?

We met in high school through a. She was a junior in high school. I was a senior in high school. And like I said, my parents got divorced. Just rewinding a little bit. My parents got divorced, and I went to my senior year. I started a new high school, and that's where. So I didn't know anyone there had a buddy that I met, and he was friends with my future wife, you know, who was there. So he introduced us, and then we were boyfriend and girlfriend throughout that time, the college time, me joining, and now we're getting married.

Was she as wild as you were?

We were pretty wild, but no, she was not as wild as me, but because I was a little bit off the chain kind of deal, but, yeah, so. And the thing about with her, she just always made me feel like it was all right to be me, you know? I mean, it always gave me this encouragement of that I could accomplish whatever I wanted to accomplish. Like, there was just some kind of connection that I could not deny and obviously welcome, you know what I mean? It was just. And I was a knucklehead, man, you know, and I was mean, and I was not kind person. And. And she stayed with me, you know, through those times. I mean, we've got a lot of years together, you know, we've gone back. Gone back and forth. We've traded hats a few times, you know, but, yeah, man, but that was. Yeah. So from that, we were together from that time, and then we got married, you know, right before. Right before I shipped out to go overseas to the Gulf War, and so we got married in south Florida, got up to Fort Bragg. She came up to Fort Bragg, and she ended up living with my aunt and uncle when I deployed, you know?

And they were already over there. I got over there, like, December of 1990.

Well, we're skipping a couple of steps here. So you got into the 82nd?

Got into the 82nd, that's right.

Where were you stationed?

At Fort Bragg.

At Fort Bragg. What was it like? Do you have any family history in the 82nd, by chance?

No. There's, like, the name history, but not personally, that I know.

Okay. I know you because I know you have some lineage that served.

Oh, yeah. Well, there is between me and my brother. Awesome. Yeah.

What was it like for you to check in? I mean, that's a well known unit.

Yeah.

You know. Were you excited to be there?

Super excited and absolutely terrified. I mean, because here I was. Because we'd come up to North Carolina and visit my uncle, you know what I mean? And we would go to the. He would take me to the gym, you know, on post. We would drive by the 82nd barracks. All this. This place where I wanted. I mean, you know, it was like, oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

You know, all the special forces stuff, the museums, everything. I'd already been to all of this as a civilian, you know? And so now I'm coming back, and I'm like, okay, now I'm gonna be in this unit, and I'm getting ready to go to war. Like, yeah. So I was terrified.

So you knew you were going to war before you ever even showed up to the 82nd?

Oh, yeah. Because it kicked off when I was at basic, you know what I mean? And then pretty much everybody, majority of the infantry units, you know, were deployed to Saudi Arabia at that time. And then in the 82nd, 100% was there, you know? So when I got orders to the 82nd, even though I still have for Benning, I knew that, hey, I was. It was going to be, like, within three weeks, I was going to be over there.

Wow.

Yeah.

What did that feel like? Were you.

It was. Again, I was. I didn't have, like, what we talked about before. I had no emotional tools. My only emotional tool was alcohol. Like, it was the cure all, you know what I mean? It's like, hey, I wasn't always insanely drunk, but I always had drinks, you know, I mean, I always had beer or shots or whatever, and so, obviously a lot of emotions going on. And for me, all that I would translate those emotions into was anger and hate and violence, you know, because I can deal with that. I don't deal with sorrow and sadness and anxiety. Like, I don't know. So what it felt like going on one hand, I was like, I'm, like, living the dream. Like, now I'm stepping into a world that I've been reading about in books my whole life. You know, hey, I'm going to be able to do what my heroes, you know what I mean, have done. So on that one hand, I was like, hell, yeah. You know, like winning the Super bowl kind of deal. And then on the other hand, I was absolutely terrified. Cause I was still a civilian, man, like, you know.

Yeah.

And even though, you know, what I experienced in post 911, you know, was nothing compared to, you know, the minimal that I experienced going from the street to, you know what I mean, a combat zone and to war was. Was significant, you know, and had huge impact on me.

Yeah. What was it like checking into the unit at 82nd?

Yeah. So it was, you know, went to Saudi Arabia, got to Saudi Arabia, and then. Because then we didn't move forward until January, once the grand ground war, and then crossed. So when I got to my unit and, man, it was crazy. Like, they. We had this thing called the Thunderdome. Uh, it was like a. Almost a whole brigade of folks, and, uh, they called it champion, Maine. That was just what they called it. I remember what town it was in. It was basically almost a full brigade, and all the artillery elements, infantry elements in one open bay with just cots. So it was called the Thunderdome, right, because the lights go out, soup cans get thrown, like, all kinds of. It was just ridiculous. But, uh, so I get to my unit and, you know what I mean? And there's all these Vietnam vets that are still in, you know, man. So I was like, holy cow, you know, I'm just, like, wide open. And then there's all these ruffians, you know, young guys my age. Guys have been there longer. A lot of the unit that I went to was first of the 504th parachute Infantry Regiment.

So that unit the year prior had jumped into Panama. So a lot of these guys, you know what I mean, had gold stars on their jump wing, had experienced a little bit of combat, you know, already.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm this new guy, you know, showing up. Yeah, man. So it was. It was a lot, but. But I was prepared for that. Like I said, growing up, I'd been fighting folks that were bigger than me, and. You know what I mean? And figuring stuff out, surviving, you know, real quick, real fast. But I was just. I was just super pumped, you know? I mean, obviously nervous. And then, uh, you know, met with my platoon that I was assigned to, you know. And, you know. And the funny thing is, is that I didn't even think we'd get this deep. But I guess we are. Is like they have back in those days. Anyway, they had cherry parties, they called them, you know, for the new guy, you know what I mean? And usually, well, as that is, is that they rough you up, scuff you up, and they give you a red belly, you know what I mean? Like, pull your shirt up and smell. Smack the shit out, you know, it ain't fun, but it's not anything stupid.

You know, I mean, like, minor hazing.

Yeah, minor hazing kind of deal. And so I knew that that was gonna happen at some point, you know, and. But I didn't know how this world worked, you know what I mean? I'm used to looking out for me, you know what I mean? Like. And so they were. They my buddies, and I made good friends right off the get go, you know, certain guys you click up with make, you know, just connections immediately, and they, uh. You're like, hey, Tom. Yeah, sorry. So, and so Huey wants us to meet down at the motor pool, you know? And, uh, it's like, late at night, you know? And it's like, well, I'm like, what for? And he's like, I don't know, man. You said super important, you know, come down here. And I'm like, hmm, okay. You know, and so, I mean, I'm an e one, you know? I mean, e two. I got promoted to e two, you know, out of basic. And, um, so I'm the lowest guy there. So I get down there, and I see how everybody's kind of posturing and, like, you know, my spidey senses, you know, are like, man, something's gonna go on.

And I'm not thinking about a cherry party, you know? I mean, I'm thinking, like, man, these guys want to whip my ass, and all right, you know? And so. And then one came in on me, you know, and then I knew. So then it was. That's like, one, like, fist throwing fights, but it was like it was coming there. And then once I finally got one guy down, and I cocked back, and then, um, somebody said, like, give him a red belly. And I was like, oh, this is what they call a cherry party. You know what I mean? It's like, so it's not a full on fight, you know. So I got my little cherry party thing there with that, and I was in the platoon, you know what I mean? I was good. Yeah. So that was what it was like, man, a lot of senior guys, so many good nco's, you know, guys that were showing me the ropes, you know, right from the get go. I mean, we were getting ready to go into combat, you know. I mean, so some of them themselves, a lot of them hadn't been there before.

Some of them had, you know, so it was just. And I just was learning from all of them. I mean, as we go through my story, you'll see this theme of these, these strong men that are in my life that's showing me the way, if I'm open to listen to them, you know. And, uh, so it was just about training and learning and getting me up to speed with all of that stuff. And then, uh, you know, and then January, the air war kicked off. Like, we moved up to the border, and then air war kicked off, and then. And then we went in February, you know, was the ground war. But it was kind of hilarious because it was. I didn't get into. Personally, I didn't. A lot of guys got into a lot of serious fights during that time. I wasn't. I wasn't any big fights, you know, during that time. We were. We were following behind the French Foreign legion, their armor element.

Interesting.

Yeah. So you can imagine what the aftermath of that was, you know, and we're in deuce and a halfs and five tons because we were a light infantry unit. I mean, we had our tow missiles and, you know, and our thermals and humvees and stuff. None of it armored, you know, and so we were just following around. So it was a really big suck fest, but it was, you know, that same, you know, fear of war and seeing war's devastation, you know, and seeing a lot of innocent, you know, getting destroyed along with the bad, you know what I mean? So it was a really, really eye opener for me. You know, we cleared a bunch of bunkers, had a lot of interactions with a lot of Iraqis, surrendered to us, that stuff. But I personally didn't get into any big fights, but I definitely got, other than the fighting aspect of it, for me personally, I got the full picture of what, you know, how awful, you know, war is.

If you didn't get any fights, how did you. What gave you, that picture. What did you see?

So we seen, like, whenever we would come through some villages that had been bombed before, you know, I mean, so you'd see what you'd normally see it in a village that got bombed, you know what I mean? As far as the innocent folks, the bad guys, you know, burn up, blowed up, that kind of peace on highways that we were cross. Cause we just crossed hundreds of miles of desert, you know, and set up checkpoints and until we got to the end, but. And then.

So did you see a lot of casualties?

A lot of casualties, yeah.

What kind of emotions were going through you when you saw your first dead bodies?

What kind of emotions were.

Did you see women? Did you see children?

Yeah, I did. It was. I was pretty numb because I was pretty emotionally overwhelmed. One, I was hyping myself up to not be so afraid, you know, because that was what was going on and being hard and, you know, and that kind of stuff, which was necessary. So I was just like, man, that's so screwed up. You know what I mean? That it's like. But I under. I had read so many books and stuff before, so even though it was books, I had a. And a lot of those guys that I was reading before, you know, I mean, those. Those Vietnam vets and especially the. You know, I mean, they. They talked about this thing that I was now seeing, you know, they talked about some of them, you know, in much more graphic details of, like, how horrible aspects of war is and war poems that they had written, you know, just the. The heartfelt. The other side of war. Yeah, there is the glory, and there is, you know, good against bad teams, you know, that piece. Yes, that's real. But also this other piece is real, but it really affected me again because I was already an emotional mess without any tools.

So my only response to that was more hardness, you know, just. Just being more like, yeah, this is war. That's what it's like. I was 20 years old, you know? Yeah. So. But so experienced. All of that piece turned. Turned 21 in Iraq. I've got several birthdays deployed, but I turned 21 in Iraq, so couldn't go out to bar or drink or nothing, you know, and then. So nothing really big, significant came that came back from Iraq. So two things that happened after I got back from Iraq, it was on the military side of the house, man. I was on my way, you know, I was. So I couldn't go to the Ranger regimen. So my next step was, well, at least get the ranger school, you know, so on the, on the military side, I was excelling, you know, got my expert infringement's badge, you know, go to preranger, you know, all of that's excellent, but my personal life is coming apart, which was super weird to me. Like, and I didn't make the connection that it was alcohol was the main thing. There was a whole bunch of things. But, you know, hey, alcohol was the major catalyst of all these second and third order effects of when you say.

Your life was coming apart.

Yeah.

How so?

So, meaning that. So, number one, I had no emotional tools, number one, and I'm with this wonderful human being of a woman. I've experienced war. I've gotten even more harder and more angrier and more violent, you know, so I'm just kind of going down the food chain, you know, of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, to almost a survival kind of frame in a, in a peaceful environment, you know, so the only people that I'm comfortable with is guys that I went to war with, you know, and military guys, and, you know, and then emotional stability was not there, you know, I couldn't provide all the other aspects that my wife needed from me, you know, and she needed me to be there emotionally, physically, in every kind of way. And I was pretty good whenever I wasn't drinking, you know, it was a pretty decent human being. But as soon as I started drinking, just, I started getting that mean level, so then there began to be problems with her, and I. Obviously, our relationship wasn't doing good. You know, it was just going downhill with no hope in sight on the personal side, so that's where.

But I didn't know that there was another way.

Did you have any kids at the time?

No, thank God. No, it did not. It was just us. And I didn't know that there was another way. Like what we were talking before, like, hey, no, this is what warriors do. Like, we get drunk, we whip people's asses, and everybody's terrified of us. Like, that's what makes you a warrior in my mind at that time. So I wasn't about to give any of that up, but it would always bleed over into my family life, you know, because it always does. One always bleeds into the other. You know, if having problems at home, then that's going to bleed into work. If I'm having problems at work, that's going to bleed into home. You, you know, I mean, eventually. So, so that's what was happening at that part. But on the, on the military side, man, I mean, within the first two years, like, you know, got my expert infantryman's badge. It went to preranger twice. I failed. I mean, I passed both times, but it was just. He had to go to Ranger school within 30 days and let me back up a little bit. So. So when I got to the unit, got back from.

From the Gulf War, started doing. Now we're just in peacetime training, you know, everything's wonderful. Back into doing it. I'm trying to get into Ranger school. So we got a new platoon sergeant, and my platoon sergeant was Vietnam vet, so. So this was a conventional army unit, right, the 82nd. But here are the players that are in this unit, right, just a conventional unit. So first brigade, right, the 504th. So General Abizaid. You remember Abizaid from the global war on terror. You know, General Abizaid.

Can you talk about him for a second?

Yeah.

Why? He was influential.

He was our brigade commander at that time, so. And then one of the battalion commanders was General McChrystal.

Wow.

And then. So you've got that epic of human beings in the 82nd, in this particular regiment, it was all throughout. So it wasn't like you just had the. And then, like, you know, guys sprinkled in there, lower enlisted, you know, that had. They're low, not leaning. They're NCO's, but, you know, they got over 20 years in and stuff, and they're e seven because they've been busted three times, you know, and. But he was a door gunner in Vietnam on three tours, you know what I'm saying? So I've got these kind of people. Sergeant Major Hogaard, who's the book? Charlie Rangers. You know, he's in that book, you know what I mean? So that I read, and now he's my sergeant major, you know, me. So that's. That's the men, that's the warriors that is around me as a PFC in the 82nd, you know, mean, with this level of folks, you know, so my. My platoon sergeant at the time, the only pfcs that could go to ranger school were in Ranger regiment. Only pfcs could go. If you weren't in Ranger Ranger, you had to be a specialist. An e four. I was only a PFC, but my platoon sergeant said, hey, gota.

He knew I wanted. What do you want to do? Hey, this is what I want to do. He's like, okay, to. So battalion was running a pre Ranger, a little pre selection for pre Ranger, you know, so, because, you know, the military. Pre to pre. To pre.

Yeah.

And so I was like, yeah, but I'm only a PFC. He's like, yes, shut up. Go do what I tell you. Okay? So I end up making, you know, getting the top bracket to go to pre Ranger. So I go to preranger pass. Then they screwed up. I've always had bad hearing from shooting weapons without hearing aid. We're just growing up, you know? And so it delayed my. Me being able to put in for orders to go. So then they informed me that, hey, pre Ranger is only good for 30 days. So I had to do pre ranger again. That totally sucked. Passed. And so now I've met the criteria to go to Ranger school for the 82nd. You know, as. As a member of the 82nd, except for one thing. I'm a specialist. So then the command finds out. They're like, what the fuck? Like, spooner's. He's a PFC. And it's like, and so we're going to lose. The division's going to lose a slot. Cause they only got a couple slots, you know, for the whole division. And, like, all this that. Or my platoon sergeant looks at him and says, like, yeah, or you can promote him to specialists.

Nice, right?

Cause he's the old wise guy, you know, because he didn't even brief me in on that, you know, I'm just. Everybody's wanting to kill me, you know, like, what the fuck? Why? You know? And I was like, I'm just doing what I'm told. And then platoon sergeant's like, yeah. So, of course, in order to not lose the slot, you know, I got promoted to specialists at, like, year and a half, you know, and then went to ranger school. Went to ranger school and recycled mountains, but made it through ranger school, graduated, and. And now I'm back, you know what I mean? As an e four in the 82nd with a ranger tab. Like, at that time, the only people in the ranger tabs in 82nd were officers or guys that, you know, had come from regiment at some point in time. You know, there was a few others, but not a lot. And so I was just like, golden boy. So whatever school I wanted, I got promoted early, got this. It was just like, so professional life was incredibly good. Personal life, absolute wreck. And finally that personal life collapsed. And my wife's like, how did it collapse?

It collapsed because I wouldn't stop drinking. And we had gotten to the point with my wife where she's like, if you keep drinking, it's over.

Well, let's get a little more specific. How did it collapse? Like, what were you doing on the off time? What was. Why was she gonna leave you? Was she a drinker?

Yeah, but not much at that time. I was training her to drink at that time. And so what happened was, like, internally, I was emotionally a wreck that, you know, I mean, alcohol was the only thing that was keeping me going. I mean, the fact that I hadn't gotten a DUI, that I had gotten put in jail, that I had, you know, I mean, I was. I was a. I mean, I was a ruffian, man.

Was it. What was it? Was it. Were you cheating on her? Was it bar fights?

No, wasn't cheating on her. It was. It was fighting, and it was. And I would be a blackout drunk, so I would do. Say horrible things, do horrible. You know, I mean, like, I would fight. I would. I mean, it was just. No matter who was around, what was around, inappropriate all the times, and. And she was afraid to be with me.

How many nights a week?

At least five.

Five nights a week?

Yeah. I mean, and then over the time, especially at the end, like, the last couple months of my drinking, man, the good days were gone.

Did that. I was a blackout drunk.

Yeah.

You know, and how do you. I mean, would you be humiliated in the morning? Did you ever. Did you wake up a lot knowing that there had been some type of an altercation argument or whatever, and you don't even remember what it was about, but you're still gonna. Your ego is still gonna let you play into it and go, I don't even know what I'm pissed off about. I don't know what we argued about, but I'm picking up on the. I'm picking up on the body language from the people around me that I have obviously done something.

Yeah.

And I'm just gonna pretend like I know what it is and ride this out.

Yeah. I mean, it would happen. And a lot of times, I mean, I would. You know, I mean, people would say, like, yeah, this is what you did. But I didn't believe them because, I mean, I would do things when I was drinking that I would never do when I was sober. Like, it wouldn't even. I would set myself on fire. You know what I mean? Like, bully someone or, like, walk up and punch some dude in the face. You know what I mean? Like, something that would never, like, kind of be a bully. Like, I would never do those kind of things or be mean to my wife or. Or say mean things to her or even cuss, you know what I mean? A lot around her. You know what I mean? Those times, and then I'd get drunk, and then it was like, yeah, you did this and you said this, and. You know what I mean? At first, I didn't. I was like, you're lying. Like, why are you making this up? I mean, it was driving her a little bit crazy, too, because I believed that she was lying. Cause I knew that I would never do those things.

Yeah.

But nonetheless, I was, you know, so all of that had been going on for a long time. I was. I was a mess. And the only solution I had was just drive it even harder and faster, you know? And so then it finally. It was. It got so bad, and I couldn't stop this train that I was on like that, and I knew it wasn't going to end. Like, I'm just a rotten son of a bitch, man. And that's how it is, you know, alcoholism is a family tradition. You know what I mean? This is just how it is. Like, hey, shame on you for tying your wagon to mine, you know? And that's not how I felt inside, but that's what came out, you know what I mean? Because inside, I mean, I love this person more than life itself. I mean, had two loves in my life. Uh, my wife in the army, like, at that point in my life, lost her because, you know, if we got. Ended up getting separated, I moved into the barracks, uh, and it was just.

You got separated?

Yeah. Yeah, it was, uh, because I finally, like, hey, if you get drunk tonight, I'm. We're over, you know? I mean, I got drunk that night because I could not get drunk that night. Of course she knew, because I told her. Yeah, it was, like, over, you know, so big blow up, you know, get out. Totally appropriate. She's a smart woman, you know what I mean? Like, the best thing she could done in her life at that moment was to get away from me for sure. So I went into the barracks. I moved into the barracks. And meanwhile, like, the. No one knows how bad my. You know. So when I asked my platoon sergeant, like, hey, I need to move into the barracks, you know, he's like, why? Because they think I'm this golden boy. Yeah, but they don't know me outside of work, you know? I mean, they. They just know that all of this piece of it. So I come back and ask him, like, hey, I need to get a room. You know? They're like, for what? You know? I'm like, yeah, my wife and I are separated. For what? You know?

And it's like, you know, I'm not going to tell him why, you know? But it was just like, sure, man, whatever you need. You know what I mean? And it's like, okay, so now I moved in the barracks. So the hilarious thing about me getting sober because that's what this is leading into, is that it's kind of like trying to get sober at the bar because all the most of my drinking started in the barracks because that's what you do in the barracks. And then we went out and then came back to the barracks. Usually it's how it all goes. So now I'm in the barracks not drinking, and that's where I'm going to get sober. So you can get sober. That's testament. Be like, you can get sober anywhere, anytime, if you really just want to get sober. And, yeah, so my wife and I were separated. She was moving on with her life. Appropriately. The only thing that saved us from getting a divorce right then and there was in the state of North Carolina, you have to be separated for a year, legally separated for a year before you can get a divorce.

So we had put in the paperwork, we were legally separated, and she was going on with her life and I was going on with mine. But I just focus on the military and, you know, and getting sober, you.

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Yeah.

Now you're, you're ready to get sober. What was that like? How did you, how did you start to get sober?

Yeah. So what got me in the mindset of getting sober was a few things or just the idea of it, because, man, what always going on is I've always had people that love me in my life, whether it's family, people. But what go on in my head is like, yeah, but you wouldn't love me if you knew me. You wouldn't love me if you knew all the things that I had done, you know what I mean? So it was this constant, like, unworthiness, you know, whether it was real or not, it was real for me. And I would always hurt my family, you know what I mean? Emotionally, you know what I mean? I would just let them down time after time and time, and that would always break my heart, which always led to more drinking, you know what I mean? Because that's my alcohol wasn't my problem. It was my solution. So without my solution, all I got is problems. But, man, I just got tired of hurting the people that I love the most. And then my wife and I got, when we got separated, you know, I mean, that. That was devastating to me on the inside.

Externally, it was just anger and, like, I don't fucking care. You know what I mean? Like, that was external. That was, like, what I had to display, you know, because I had nothing else inside was just crushed, wrecked, hurt.

How did you feel when your wife told you she's get out?

One part of it was relief.

Really?

Yeah, because I didn't want to hurt her anymore. That's just how jammed up I was as a human being at that time. I have this person in my life that I love more than anyone on this planet who wants to be with me, but I keep pushing her away, you know what I mean? And now I want her leave because I can't. So part of me was relief, and the other, because at least I wasn't going to be hurting her anymore. Then the other part was devastation. Like, oh, my God, she's my person. Like, my person. And so I'd heard about AA because my dad got sober back in 1988, you know, so this is 92. So four years prior, my dad had gotten sober. I didn't care. Like I said, we didn't have a great relationship. He's like. He's talking to me, telling me he got sober. He's in AA. I'm like, oh, stupid, weak ass shit. You know where I was at the time. And. But what I couldn't deny was that here was this man. He'd been so for a few years, like I said, almost four. Here was this man that had lost it all, right?

He lost a family. He lost a job. He almost lost his life. But here he was sober. He hadn't had a drink in four years, and he was happy. And that perplexed me like, you lost your family. You should just be miserable for the rest of your life. I mean, just my mindset was. But undeniably, he was happy. And he said it was because he went to AA and God, which. That was a different subject, too, because I hated God.

You hated God at the time?

Hated God. All my life, I'd been raised in the church, you know, had wonderful examples of church. I just could never connect with it. And that's not anything negative on church. That was just where I was. I could never relate or understand to the God that they were talking about, how they were talking about him, you know? I knew it was. I knew there was a God for sure, you know, I just, for whatever reason, knew that. And I knew that what I had seen in this life, like, how rough my life had been, all the innocent people I'd see get destroyed. Like, it was like, yeah, man, if there is a God, it's the devil. Like, because how could you allow this kind of stuff to go on? Meanwhile, I wouldn't see all the beautiful things, you know, that were going on. I was just focused on the negative because that's where I was at, you know? And so my dad had mentioned that, you know, and he had called me, you know, and, hey, how do I quit drinking, you know? So I said, I'm gonna quit drinking, you know, because anything I'd ever decided to do in my life, I'd done that.

I had told myself I might tell you some shit and that might or might not happen, but anytime I said with me, like, what's the big deal? I'm just gonna quit drinking, you know? Well, the big deal if you're an alcoholic and you quit drinking, things get bad, and then if you stay, stop drinking, they get worse, and then if they stay, stop drinking, they get intolerable. Until I have to have a drink, I have to, you know, so, yeah, so that's why I wanted to get sober, man. But. But really, like, down in my heart, but my heart was covered up by a whole bunch of heaps of other not good stuff, you know, it was just all this stuff blocking me and. But in my heart, that's what I wanted. I wanted what was best for my wife and all of that, and I wanted to be better, but in my head, I was just so screwed up and pissed off, you know? So I went to AA at first, just for another reason that I might could get back my wife manipulation. Like, hey, I'm going to AA, you know, want to get back together.

So there was another side of just the relief.

Yeah. What's that again?

There was another side. You said you felt relief when she said she wanted you to leave.

Yep.

So there was a whole nother side to this?

Yeah. The other side of it was, is that again, I hated hurting her the whole time, and now that she wasn't going to be in my life, and therefore I could not hurt her again.

How long did it take you to. How do I put this?

Yeah.

How long did it take you to realize that you needed her? Because now you're playing manipulation games trying to get her back. How long did that take?

Always. Instantly. The manipulation games again. I was so kind of twisted up inside. Like, I was relieved that I'm not gonna hurt her, but I know I can't live without her. So now I'm gonna manipulate the situation to try to get her back.

Okay.

Like, that's a mess. I think they call that a hot mess nowadays.

And so when you decided to go to AA, did you have. Did you not have any intentions of actually getting sober? This was just a way to manipulate.

I had intent. The thing that I did have an intention of was not drinking anymore. Right. Because I was, like, I finally fully realized and understood that, number one, I can't drink like regular people. Like, I take a drink and then all this happens. Like, these other people, they take drinks and then they just kind of stop drinking or whatever, you know? I always thought they were weird, but I did not want to drink anymore. But I didn't think AA would work. It was all a bunch of bullshit. AA is a bunch for a bunch of damn weak people that can't control their own lives. That's my mindset going in there. So for the first amount of time, meanwhile, I'm in the barracks, still doing the duty day, you know, still working, so doing the army stuff. But I'm going to these AA meetings at night, and I'm reading the AA book, the blue book, you know, and it's got the twelve steps in it, you know? And so I'm reading that book, but I'm not. There's a lot of things they recommend. Like, hey, you go to a meeting, obviously you don't drink. You go to meetings, you get a sponsor, which is someone who guides you, you know, through sobriety, and you go through the steps, you know, and work the steps with a sponsor.

I wasn't doing none of that. I was. I was. Because again, I got real problems, man. Like you're saying this little bullshit stuff is not going to help me. And plus, I'm damaged. Like, y'all can't help me anyway. Like, I'm rotten, you know? And. But anyway, so I'm going through it. And why do you.

I mean, why did you think you were that rotten? I mean, because you're. I feel like we might be missing something, because all of the stuff that you're describing is pretty common everyday life for a combat infantryman.

Yeah.

Special opera. Anybody who's in a combat role, at least in that time period. I don't know how it is today, but it seems pretty par for the course. And so I'm wondering, where's the extra guilt coming from?

The extra guilt that's coming from. I ended up becoming the guy that I hated the most, okay? Meaning the bully, you know what I mean? The guy that would take advantage of situations. You know what I mean? That was mean. That was nasty. That was ugly to people, you know? Mean that. Like, I ended up becoming the person that I hated more than anything. Like I said, the only thing that was above my. The level of hate I had for me was God. But just. And then growing up, there was a lot of things. Like, I was a mean kid growing up, like, to my brother, you know, me. So I just always had this. I had always had this unworthy, damaged. So self concept is what, you know, a lot of people talk about, right? And that's what we are talking about. So my self concept was that, whether it was real or in my head, my self concept was that I was a damaged human being and didn't deserve anything good in this life other than to suffer. That's what went on here. Some of that was justified in actions that had happened, a lot of it.

Maybe something people said, you know, experiences that I'd had or that I had come up with myself. So that's basically where I was as a human being at that time. And I really. I'd already lost my wife. The next thing was the army, because, I mean, I just hadn't gotten caught drunk on duty. I hadn't gotten caught drunk and drunk. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? The only difference between me and guy in prison or in the ground is inches and seconds. You know what I mean? That's it. The only difference. I wasn't getting caught, but, I mean, I'm not an idiot. Like, I keep doing it. Like, you know, statistics have. It's gonna happen. So. So I didn't want. I'd already lost number one thing, and I'm about to lose number two, you know, if I drink. So I was solid on not wanting to drink, and I wanted to drink so bad, I couldn't stand it, because, again, drinking wasn't my problem. It was my solution, you know? And, um, so eventually, I got a. A few things happened. You know, I got promoted to sergeant again. I'm this golden boy militarily.

Now. My wife and I are separated, but I'm really focused on, like, getting sober, you know? And it was. I've done a lot of hard things in my life. A lot, really hard things to date. For me, the hardest thing that I've ever done my entire life is early sobriety, because I was having to change core beliefs, change how I'd acted my whole life, changed every person, place, or thing, you know what I mean? I was. Only had to change one thing my whole fucking life, you know what I mean? And I'd never been able to do that before. So doing that, like, no kid, not talking about it, like, actually putting in the work and doing that and continuing to not drink was the hardest thing that I'd ever done. I mean, that's why a lot of guys don't stay sober. Cause it's hard. The reason why a lot of guys don't make it to the seals. Cause it's hard. Like, you know what I mean? Any super hard thing that's worthy in life takes an incredible, enormous amount of work. And for me to date, that's the hardest that I've ever done. But I was making it harder on me because I wasn't doing what was suggested.

Like, hey, idiot, here's the plan. Like, when I went to ranger school, I went to pre ranger. I followed the regulations, you know what I mean? The Ranger handbook, like, all of that stuff. He was like, hey, man, there's a book. Follow the book. You get the results. Just like, the gym. Like, hey, you want to get stronger? You go to the gym, you pick up things that are heavy, and you move them around. Like, then you go. You get a results. The real bottom came whenever I couldn't imagine my life without drinking, and I couldn't imagine my life with drinking, you know? And I just hit this surrender point of where I had to go all in, you know what I mean? On this sobriety gig, the steps and sponsors and all this crap that I didn't think would work, so I did. But I resisted that up until the end, where I couldn't resist it anymore, and I finally gave up. I surrendered. What I mean, when I say I gave up, I gave up on trying to do it my way. Like, I'm gonna get sober my way. Like, hey, if you can get sober your way, like, right on, man, go right ahead.

But I couldn't, you know, and so I got that sponsor and we started going through the steps, you know, and then I got what I always needed, which is relief. I drank because I needed relief. I needed relief from my emotions, from my mental, from everything that was going on. I needed relief from that. Alcohol gave me that peace. Now I don't have alcohol in my life. What am I going to use to get relief, you know? And the cool thing for me is, was, and it really relates into warriors heart, you know, when it comes up. But is I got sober on Fort Bragg, so I got sober with warriors, you know what I mean? So significantly different atmosphere than being in a civilian AA meeting, you know, or help twelve step group meeting. Because I was with military guys, you know, the majority of them were army, you know, as army base, we had some air force mix, but it was mainly. And so we all spoke the same language, same analogies, you know what I mean? The military lingo, they would attach spirituality to military decision making processes. They would attach sobriety, all these different things to the construct of how my brain worked, which was military minded, you know?

And so it was huge. And I got sober with warriors. And again, hero warriors. Vietnam vets, like world War two vets, like, holy crap, these are bad ass warriors who are sober and also men of God. What? Because for me, it was a lot of all or nothing. It was that team mentality, you know, which I was all into. I'm not judging or hating, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, a warrior means this, you know what I mean? And then now I'm trying to be this other thing. It didn't fit in that construct of what a warrior. It's like, what am I going to be? I was really afraid of getting sober, too. It's like, man, am I going to turn into some kind of hippie? You know? And, like, in my mind, if this was just in my mind, but in my mind, if you wanted to follow God, that meant that you. If you gave your life and your will over to God, that meant you put on a white robe and you went down to South America, and that's what you did for the rest of your life, was tell people about God.

I didn't want to do that, you know? I want to be a warrior, man. Like, I'm just getting started. 22 years old, you know? I mean, I've got this military career, that's just. I mean, I'm going somewhere. I don't know if I'll get my wife back or not, but, like, you know, but it's terrifying. The idea of trusting in God. It was. For me, it was because it meant I didn't know what it meant. I mean, I have to give up my life or what I didn't know. But through that process of going through the steps, you know what I mean, with my sponsor, you know, that process alone clears away all the wreckage of the past. If you do what, if you follow the directions, you get the results, you know? And for me, that's what was life changing. Obviously, I'm condensing it down a whole lot, but it's for the first time in my life, you know, by clearing away the wreckage of my past and making amends to the best of my ability and having a fellowship, you know, mean of men in my life, women, also, but stronger with the, you know, fellowship of men.

And that held me accountable and encouraged me, you know, me and busted my ass when I needed it. You know, I had a God in my life, my own personal God. For the first time in my life, it was amazing. I was happy, joyous, and free without drinking for the first time in my entire life.

How long. How long did it. Did it take you to get to the twelve steps? How long did you give yourself?

Or.

I guess. I guess a more appropriate question would be from the time you decided you wanted to stop drinking to the time.

That the miracle happened.

Hit bottom.

Yeah.

What was that timeframe?

62 days.

62 days.

And I know it was 62 days. Yeah. From the time I had stopped, and then I just resisted, went to meetings and had a book, but. And read the book, but not all. Then that was 62 days, and then that was the surrender moment. Then I got a sponsor and was on board, and I told my sponsor, I was like, so here's the deal, man. I'm gonna do whatever you. This is me telling my sponsor, here's the deal, man. Here's the deal, man. Like.

That'S how I'm gonna do this.

Yeah. This is how arrogant I am. I said, I'm gonna do whatever you tell me to do, 100%. I'm gonna do what this book tells me to do, 100%. I'm gonna do what these steps say to do, 100%. And when this shit doesn't work, I'm gonna go get drunk. And he said, deal. He's like, yeah, man, that's all you got to do is try you do all that stuff. That's all I'm asking. So my intention was to prove that that shit didn't work for a damaged person like me, and I got sober. Wow. So intention. That was the absolute horrible intention, you know what I mean? Like, to prove that it didn't work and I got all the goods out of it and all the. And all the wonderful miracles that came from it. What it reinforces is action is all that matters. Do the actions, do the work. Don't think about it, don't pray about it. Like, do the work. Like going in the gym, if you look at how we go into the gym, you can watch all these YouTube videos. Me and you can talk about it all day long. We can make up a plan, and we would just.

I mean, just geek out on it. But until we go in there and start lifting heavy things, nothing's gonna. Nothing's gonna happen.

When did your wife come back?

So, see, the. It was a little less than a year. We were separated almost a year. Wow. Yeah. And during that time, you know, all I was doing was working and recovery. You know, people talk about recovery. It's like, what does that mean? It's like, what are you recovering? You know, main. I'm in recovery. I'm recovered. I was trying to recover me. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's what recovery is about, is I'm trying to recover myself, meaning, because at my. My heart and my true self is a really good, solid human being, but I've got all these traumas and I've got all this mess and I've got all these bad behaviors and I've got all this bullshit in the way of me just being me, you know what I mean? So in recovery, I'm trying. I'm. To date for 31 years, I'm still trying to recover all the pieces that are me, because life goes on, and you're always presented with more trauma, you.

Know, what was it that brought her back? I mean, so she leaves.

Yeah.

You attempt for 62 days, there's two months. So she made you go ten months, silver.

Yeah. With no really, intention, to my knowledge of her getting back, because I was always during that time, I gave her her space, like, all the minute when I said I was all in on the recovery process, meaning I couldn't manipulate anymore, couldn't lie anymore. I was. To be honest, I was to be true. I was to be authentic, you know? I mean, all these things I had never, you know, accomplished before in my life. And she knew that, too, you know, and, um. And so I gave her space, you know, I mean, I gave. I mean, I would, you know, every opportunity that I had, you know, what I would get. Because my sponsor, right, man, he set me straight right from the get go because he asked me, hey, what do you love? The normal get to know kind of questions, like, what are your loves? What? He's like, man, I love my wife. And he said, well, what do you want for her? I was like, I want her to be happy. And it was absolutely my heart. I wanted her to be happy. All that I had put her through, the wonderful person that she is, like, I wanted her to be happy.

He said, okay, you want her to be happy? He's like, well, what if that doesn't include you? You still want her to be happy? And I was like, damn. Because in my mind that her being happy, I was somewhere in my picture, you know? But when he put it to me like nuts and bolts, kind of like that, you know? And my answer was yes, you know, like, when it hit me, it, like, really settled, like. Like, really, like, unconditionally.

You'd never thought about that possible?

Hell, no, man. I'm a selfish guy. Like me, I want what I want when I want it. You know what I'm saying? Like, used to getting it, and it was like, wow, that was a real question that required a real answer, like, right now, you know? And I said, yeah. And I was like, damn. But it also freed me up because there was no more game, you know what I mean? Like, I was to be me and whatever that meant, trying to figure it out, you know, and then whatever. If we got back together, we got back together. The only thing that I made sure for me and did was I stayed. You know? I mean, I didn't have a girlfriend. I wasn't seeing anybody else. I was truly just. Because if I. If there was any chance of her and I getting back, it meant that I had to be single. If I was in a relationship, then obviously we couldn't never get back. That was. I'm trying to live a life of honesty and all, you know? So I had to, like, not, you know, to remain single, you know, and. Which was another skill set in and of itself, you know?

So I really was getting sober, mind, body, and spirit, not just dry, meaning not having a drink. I was working on every part of my life, and I loved it, and I was with the men that I wanted to be with. So I'm still with my heroes. I'm still with the Vietnam vets. I'm still with the world war two. I'm meeting these giants of human beings. Like, again, we read my resume. Not minimizing me, but my resume, compared to those guys resume, man, is like, doing good, kid. You know, do another 20 years, maybe you'll be all right. You know, again, not in a minimizing what I did or self deprecating, but, like, dude, these guys were like, world War two, Korea and Vietnam veterans.

I can't believe you were in with World War two vets. That's incredible, man.

Yeah, there wasn't. There wasn't any on active duty at the time, but I was in recovery with all those guys.

That's. That's still, like, just. Yeah, the greatest generation.

Epic, man. I mean, yeah, I mean, I can go on and on for days with the. Because I chose to have the willingness to be around these folks. The amount that I learned and the stories that I heard, which enabled me to make it the way that I did again, that comes back to it all goes back to them, you know, kind of deal. So. So I'm getting. So now I'm sober. Oh. And how we got back together was, is that, you know, I just kept putting in the work and was consistent for the first time ever. And then she really believed, like, holy crap, this guy's not going to get drunk again, because she didn't believe it, nor should she should have, but. And, wow, I was kind. I was like. I was a solid, consistent, predictable human being. And so we got back together, and we got back together, and then who.

Reached out to who?

I reached out to her. You know what I mean? As far as. Cause I was always reaching out at every opportunity. Not being manipulative, but just like, hey, would you like to go out to dinner sometime? Like, hey, you want to go out to the farm? You know, a lot of times it was no, and that was okay, and I had to be, but. So we got back together.

But you got a yes.

What's that?

You got a yes.

I eventually got a yes.

So what was that like to reconnect with her for the first time?

Oh, my God, man.

Where did you go?

Yeah, so it was. We were just out at it unfolded, right? That's what I learned about living in my God's world, is I always work hard and I make plans and stuff, but, man, if I just allow things to unfold, like, my God has the best of things waiting for me. If I just don't screw them up, how do we keep me out of the picture, you know? And so we had just, we met up, and we were, like, at my. At my uncle's farm, my aunt and uncle's farm. And we were just hanging out, talking. And then one thing led to another, and she missed me terribly, you know, because I wasn't a jackass anymore. You know what I mean? She couldn't blame me anymore, just on the past stuff, but, you know, in the near future, you know what I mean? I was decent, and she was just. Was like, yeah, let's. Because I'm in the whole time, you know? I mean, it's like she knew I was willing and able and wanting to be back together. That wasn't a question. The only question was what she wanted to join that party again, you know?

And then just one day, it was like, yeah. She's like, yeah, I do. And so then now I had her back, you know, and I was a different guy, you know what I mean? Truly, you know? I mean, there had been spiritual changes that had occurred in me. I was no saint by any means, but, you know, I had had a spiritual awakening. Enough to recover from alcoholism, number one meaning I wasn't drunk. And then with that being in place, that I was actually a decent human being still, a young man learning what young men have to learn, you know, I mean, it didn't rocket ship me into some kind of yogi ness, you know what I mean? It was, uh. So I had a lot of her hard lessons to learn, but, man, I was. I was good, you know? I mean, solid, dude. Yeah. And it was, man. And then from that moment forward, that was the beginning of acquiring in my mind zeros and ones, you know, effects. You know, put in the work, get results. It's like, okay, I put in this work. My wife is now back in my life as a result of that work.

Now, that's my motivation, to keep doing the work. Don't get complacent. Don't get like, hey, this can be gone. But a lot of people don't. Most people don't get the opportunity of a second chance, you know? I mean, I know that, you know, so I was gifted this second chance, like, all right, boy, it's on you now. You know?

I'm interested to hear what happened with your career. You know, now we're talking about the marriage, the personal life, you know? One thing I noticed when I quit drinking two years ago is my career went like this, you know? Oh, yeah, it was on and upward, but then it went straight up.

Oh, yeah, man. So I'd already even a high functioning alcoholic that I was, you know, I mean, again, I was already a golden boy status, right? And that was 92. Now we're talking 93 timeframe. So I'm going to all these other schools, right? So I'm, like, going to Pathfinder school. I'm going to jump master school. Like, whatever's available. Like, I'm going to it, and I'm crushing it, you know, and some other things that are happening along the way is back to the. The mentors in my life. So that same platoon sergeant, you know, that finagled me into ranger school, you know, through his wizardry when I became an NCO, you know, an e five sergeant, meta PLDC and Ranger school and everything, I think, you know, he gave me one piece of information, man, that still what I do today, you know, and he asked me, he's like, yeah, so what does it mean to be an NCO, dude, I'm 22 years old. I'm a ranger qualified e five, you know, I mean, I'm just. But now I'm sober, and I'm not this asshole, you know, as much anyway. And it's like, mission and health and welfare of the troop.

He's like, yeah, yeah, that's true. You know? And he's like, but what does health and welfare of the troops mean? And I was like, well, I mean, I've been to PLDC. I know the answer, you know? And it's like, yes, beans and bullets. And, hey, you got to know what family, you know, how many kids they have, and you got to know what problems they have going on their lawn. They're like, he's like, yeah, jackass. It doesn't mean that at all. So now I know I'm about to hear something, because anything that I'd ever read in the books and from the army and from, you know, ncoes system and everything, like, okay, I just had regurgitated what he said. And so what he said, no, what health and welfare the troops means is to you give the men that are under you the ability to survive and thrive in combat. That's what that means. That's a whole lot difference than beans and bullets. He's like, yeah, you have to know all that stuff to just be a good leader. A good leader knows their people. I said, but don't ever be confused that with being, you know what I mean, providing health and welfare to the troops, the ability to survive and thrive in combat.

That's a whole other thing that doesn't have anything to do with this piece. And because of my limited experience, but experience nonetheless, in the Gulf war, I knew what he was talking about. I had an idea of what he was talking about. And so from that moment forward, and I was sober, so now it's predictable and consistent and regular. That's what my whole life has been about. You know what I mean? How to give, obviously, when I was on active duty, is like, you have those ability, meaning in training to survive combat. So teach them right, number one, and then to thrive in it, you know. I mean, that's a whole nother different piece of just survival of combat, you know? So it was given. And again, I'd already mentioned all the other war wizards that were in that brigade, you know, and then I started getting exposure to. So it was a Vietnam vet, and I started getting exposure to this idea of. I really didn't know what I was being exposed to, but it was PTSD, right? I mean, I had learned that battle fatigue, PTSD, all that stuff, that was a leadership issue.

A leader's job is to be able to identify if one of their soldiers has battle fatigue, post traumatic stress, you know, that kind of stuff. That's a leadership issue, not to heal it, I mean, not to fix it. But, hey, Jimmy right there, he's developing these symptoms, his nightmares, his all the stuff that we know that are symptoms. Like, I identify those things, and, hey, he's got to be pulled offline and fixed as far as for unit readiness, not caring about the human any, just back to the military machinery piece of it. So I knew it was a leadership issue, but, I mean, there wasn't any offerings. I mean, it was early nineties and stuff, but I got exposed again to more. I'll probably get this in order. But then the next kind of situation I found myself with was that one, like, soldier of the quarter board or something, you know, I was doing all these different things that you have to do to excel in peacetime, because we were in peacetime army. I mean, I was in peacetime army for ten years before 911. That's a lot of training. Yeah, that's a lot of experience.

And so because I want to get promoted, you got to go to these boards, you know? I mean, it's all this peacetime army things that you have to do to excel during that time. And so I won this trip to Sacramento, California, to be at the 173rd Airborne Division's reunion. They reenacted it or reactivated it, but back then, it wasn't. So it was just Vietnam vets, you know, in Korea. But the thing about it was, is that also during the Vietnam War, the 173rd, the Ranger regiment, all the different ranger companies, because they didn't have battalions then with companies had supported that unit. So they were all. Every ranger that had served in Vietnam was there also. So I get to go out to their reunion in Sacramento. So now I'm sitting with hundreds. I mean, there was more missing body parts in that room than probably ever then until that thing happened again. Because these are all the rangers, all these guys. There's guys walking around, you know, with four gold stars on their jump wings from World War Two. I mean, there's just. Yeah, man, there's these guys that the only time they come out of the woods, you know, is for this reunion, and then they go back to the woods, you know?

And because they can't deal with society or they don't. They choose not to. Not that they can't. They just choose not to. So I'm sitting there with. I'm an e five. It's like 94. I got four years in the army, you know, and, um, I'm in. And so I'm, like, in awe. But then I'm learning, you know what I mean? And what I'm learning about the message that just keeps hitting with me, with war and trauma is. Is that it doesn't go away because I'm watching all these heroes having fun, talking shit. You know what I mean? Telling stories. That that's a chunk of it. And then usually in the evenings, you know, or some part even during the day, there's this darkness, you know what I mean? And there's this savagery of emotions that occurs, and these come apart, you know, me, and it's like, whoa. And this self medication, right? Which. I'm an alcoholic, man. These guys that are. They're feeling so much emotion, they have to medicate it. And that's their medicine and drugs and everything. So I was just like. And I wasn't being judgmental by any means, you know? It's like the message I got was like, it doesn't go away.

Like, it doesn't. Like, here's. It doesn't go away. It's 30 years later. Doesn't go away, you know, so. And then shortly after that, I did a 45th anniversary jump into Saint Mary Glisse, France. Epic, right? You know what I mean? Jump mastered into the static line. Jump mastered into that. There was some old world war two guys that jumped into there also. I mean, some of those guys were still healthy enough to jump in, and they walked in. And so we're there again. I'm in epic right here I am with all my heroes, and the same thing happens, like, during the day. It's like I landed right over there and broke my leg, and I crawled over here, and I shot three germans over there. You know what I mean? Like. Like, holy crap. So during the day, we're talking about all that stuff, and then sometimes during the day or then at night, I'm watching them just come apart, unhinged, you know what I mean? Like, wow. It doesn't go away. Doesn't go away. Like, okay. And that's just information that I'm having, you know? And so I would talk to a lot of them about that, especially the world war two guys, you know, which is a much, in my opinion, don't know if it's true or not, you know, a much tougher group of men come out of the depression, you know what I mean?

And then live world wars. I mean, I'm with you. Yeah, man. Like, greatest generations to date, in my opinion.

That's what they call them.

Yeah, man. And so is they. And when I was in sobriety, now I'm in sobriety, and I'm in meetings and I'm talking to. To veterans and stuff, because now some of that stuff a little bit is gurgling up for me, you know, even though I did my step work, I hadn't been to any psychology help or anything like that, you know, so I still have a lot of emotions that are not processed. And some of those hardcore world War two guys, you know what I mean? They called it. Some of them would say, like, yeah, don't shake the net, boy. And what it meant was, is that, you know, all the pictures of the D day invasion and the big cargo nets on the big ships that were putting them on the landicraft, you know, you see the pictures and they're just full of it. Well, these are those guys stories. It's like, yeah, guys that would be shitting themselves, you know what I mean? Or freak out, having panic attacks, and, like, I'm not going kind of deal and start freaking out and shaking the net that's about to make all these other guys fall off of it.

They'd pull them off of it. Cause either you go or ten of us go, you know, kind of deal. And so whenever it came to the talk of war trauma, those kind of stories, you know, the ones that we have that we don't even really talk amongst ourselves about, you start bringing that kind of stuff up, they'd be like, don't shake the neck, son. And be like, dang. So one part of me got it, but then the other part of me was like, something has to be done with that because it doesn't go away, you know? I mean, these guys were in their later times of their life just because where they were. And so, anyway, I got this. This is even when I was in the 82nd, you know, and let's backtrack just a second.

So you're sober. You get sober, you get your wife back. Did you tell your dad?

Yeah.

Call your father and let him know you got sober?

Yeah. I was staying in contact with him, so that was the beginning. Like I said, my dad and I didn't have good relations, you know, young in life, and, man, and he did the best thing because he knew. I tell him what I was doing, like, yeah, I'm still going to the bar, but I'm not drinking. And because I call him every week or so and just check in with him and stuff, man. And he was, you know, now, I mean, me being a dad, you know, your son is your son no matter how old you are, you know, and he. I knew he wanted to say, you need to stop doing that. You need to do this, you know, and do that. But he didn't. He was just like, well, you just keep at it, just keep at it, just keep at it, you know? And so when I was. I was enjoying the conversations with him, you know, they weren't any kind of deep, but I wasn't angry with him. I wasn't, you know, there wasn't anything in between us. It was. We were just. I was a young man. He's, you know, we were having conversations, so it was super cool.

Yeah. And he. And he didn't get into my business. He just kept encouraging me, courage me, because if he'd have said it just with the dad factor, I wouldn't have done it because he asked me to do it, you know, because I'm. Again, that jackass that doesn't like being told what to do. So, yeah, he's back in my life and because of me, not because of him, you know, back in my life. And, man. And we're creating this new relationship, which was huge. Huge for me at that point in my life, too. You know, it was really big deal. So all those relationships are being, you know, being mended up, and it's good.

Yeah, let's get into your special ops career.

So then it ended up not even. So, again, my whole thing was like wanting to get to the ranger regiment, right? So I'm ranger qualified. But I didn't go to the regiment, and they'll be quick to tell you the difference between those two things. But anyway, so I went to. I'm like, well, what next? Because I couldn't stay in the 82nd any longer. Some of the best NCO's to date were those men that were there, but I just always wanted, like, what's next? Like, I want. I needed. I'd done everything that I could do there. What's the next challenge? You know? And being an SF, you know, Green Beret, it's like, okay, well, that just was kind of like the next thing. And it was. It was like, hey, I was already on another enlistment and I couldn't switch over, so let me go to that. So in 19 December of 95, I went to special forces election and made it.

How did that come on the radar.

Going to special forces? It was just that I wasn't. It was like, man, what's next? That was kind of the. What's next? It was. What was next? It was like, well, I can go to special.

Did you always know about it? Or.

I mean, I always knew about the Green Berets, but it wasn't like one of those things that, like a, hey, that'd be cool, but it wasn't like a man. I want to devote my life to this purpose, you know? And it was really like, hey, I didn't want to be a drill sergeant or recruiter because that's the, you know. Right? At about six years, five to six years, you get tagged for being a drill sergeant or a recruiter. I didn't want that. I was like, so let me go to selection because that trumps anything there. So. So not a lot of really huge reason for going other than giving it a shot and that it was going to be super hard. That was the motivation for. It's like, hey, do I have what it takes to be at the next level? So go to that. And yeah, make. And at that time, each one of these things that I experienced, whether it was pre Ranger, then ranger school, then best ranger, then SFAS, was the hardest thing I ever done in my life. You know, each one of those, not one of those that I just breezed through, I'm like, well, that wasn't too bad.

It was like, no, that was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life until I got to the next hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. And then at this point, SFAS for sure was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. Made it through that super exciting, you know, like, holy crap, you know, past selection as an 18 Charlie, that's engineer. Special forces engineer. Started. What did I do? Went to the Q course qualification course for that. And again, man, I'm now living even more the dream, you know what I mean? Like, now I'm going to be a special forces guy. So at this time, I'm about, you know, I'm about. This is 96 timeframe, so I'm like four years sober. And what I've seen in sobriety is, like, usually between years four and six, a lot of that unprocessed trauma comes out if you haven't seen a psychologist or, you know, worked through those kind of issues. And for me, a lot of that emotional stuff started coming out from childhood, from past, from, you know, I mean, whatever, it just started coming out. I didn't have any really processing tools other than sharing it with a, you know, another alcoholic or another warrior, you know.

And so there were some tough times, you know, having panic attacks, anxiety attacks. Again, not to do to anything. It was all from past stuff, you know, and it's a natural. What I've learned is that it's a natural progress of the body has to be rid of all of that stored emotion. The body will be rid of it at some point. Usually it comes out sideways. Like, if I'm not dealing with something that I know I'm not supposed to be dealing with, it's going to come out with an inappropriate emotional response, inappropriate behaviors like saying too much, getting mad, you know, I mean, it's coming out, you know, I always revert it back to, like, a thorn that's stuck in my skin. Like, my body is going to kill itself to get that out. Like, you know what I mean? It's going to. There's be red, and then there'll be pus around it because it's trying to force it out, you know, I mean, it'll go so far as if it doesn't force it out, then I'll become septic and die, you know, me. But the body is going to try to get it out.

So all those stored emotions stored in memories and events, uh, our couple, you know, we're coming out. So I was having these weirdo panic attacks and stuff. I didn't even have the words for them because, again, it's mid nineties. No one talks about anxiety and panic attack. Not in my circles, anyway. You know, it's just like, man, I don't know what's the matter with me. Like, whatever, just don't do anything stupid right now, you know? And, um, so I was going through that, and, um, one morning, again, now what I know when I was in language school, I ended up having this panic attack. And it just so happened that morning, I was supposed to go in for a PT test, like, at zero 630, and then normal, like, being class at language school, you know, at zero nine. So I got up with that panic attack thing. My wife had already gone to work. I was at the house by myself, no kids still, and I'm having this panic attack, man. I'm not leaving the house. I'm supposed to be at formation and I'm not going. And I'm well aware of the consequences of my actions.

Like, I'm probably going to get kicked out because it was almost like a zero tolerance kind of thing, man. I'd seen guys get kicked out for stuff, and I was just. I was not well, man, you know, I was reading my books, I was praying my prayers. I was just, like, just riding it out. But I wasn't leaving the house for whatever reason that's I had. I'm not leaving the house. And so cool things, people that knew me, and I was predictable, you know, the first sergeant, of course, sf, you know, long tab guys like, hey, where's Spooner? Why isn't he at my formation? You know, because I'm student status, you know, I'm not. I made nothing in those guys minds, you know? And, uh. And, uh. And so the first arm, of course, pissed. And then. Then I didn't show up for the next formation, and first sergeant came down and he's like, where's Spooner? And, uh, I don't know. He's not. So two of my best friends that I. One of them I knew in the 82nd, and we'd gone to selection, and we're in the course together. They go to the first sergeant and they're like, hey, first sergeant, um, something's wrong.

Because the first sergeant was getting ready to come to my house, unbeknownst to me. Like, I knew I was going to be in trouble, but I didn't know. Like, some dude was getting ready to come to my house. Something kept coming up, and he couldn't come to the house because that's what he told my buddies. He's like, hey, I was going to go to the house. I can't. He's like, y'all two go to his house right now, you know, and I'm unbeknownst to me, so I'm just at the house having a panic attack trying to get my shit together, you know? And. And so I finally do, you know, it starts easing up, you know, as most emotions do, you know, I mean, passing, and I'm like, I'm like, okay. And right about that time, I look out my window and I see my buddy Robert's truck pull up. Like, fuck are they doing here? They're supposed to be in lang. We're in the language course together, you know, and I look like a mess, right? I got, like, some Bermuda shorts on, my hair's all crazy sticking out. Look like a dude that's probably having a panic attack, you know?

And, uh. And I'm at the door, and my one buddy, he knows about my sobriety and my other path and my other one, and he's like, hey, bro, how you doing? You know, I'm like, not so good this morning, and, like, come on in, you know, because I wasn't hiding anything. And so they come in, but it was that act of human kindness, you know? I mean, here it makes me emotional even now to think about it, you know? I mean, here, warriors came to the aid, like, because Rob knew something was wrong. Because I don't not. I'm a good soldier. I mean, I don't miss formations. Like I'm. I set the example, you know? I mean, that's what Tom does. So he knew something was wrong, and so. But just that act of human kindness, man, just, whoo. From other warriors, you know, just, like, really calmed all of it down. I was like, man, ain't that something? So they knew I was good, and, you know, everything was good. And I was like, yeah, man, I'm gonna iron my uniform up, you know, and then go talk to first sergeant, right? So I'm going to talk to the first sergeant.

I was like, man, I'm probably going to get kicked out. At minimum, they're going to recycle me, you know, I'm going to get punished somehow, even though I really. I just missed a couple. But at those times, zero tolerance. Guy's name was first sergeant Stack. And, um, so I go into the first sergeant, and, you know, it's like, he's sitting down. I sat down, he's like, yes, sit down. And he's been in SF for over ten years, you know what I mean? Like, this dude's a crusty old SF dude, you know? And I think he's s just says that, like, wait, like, you better start talking, boy. You know what I mean? And so, and so I started talking. I was like, hey, first time. First of all, you know, there's absolutely no reason I shouldn't have been at your formation. There's no excuse I should have been at your formation. He's like, yeah. He's like, yeah, I know that. He said, so what's going on? And I was like, what? You know what I mean? Like, I'm already expected to be kicked out in my little movie. You know what I mean? I'm kicked out.

I'm going. I'm doing like. And this man is asking me what's going on with me? And he meant it like, what? What's going. Obviously something's going on. Tell me what's going on. And I told him, you know, I was like, hey, you know, I was having some struggles this morning, and there were some things going on in my family. My brother was struggling a little bit. There was some struggles going on with my mom. You know, mean, I had some. I wasn't going to tell him fully that I was having a fucking panic attack, you know what I'm saying? I mean, but I told him enough of the truth, probably about 90% of it, that I was struggling that I owned up to. And then he said something that I had never experienced before. He looked at me and he said, okay. He said, he's like, look, you're in special forces now. We take care of each other. And I was like, because we say all that shit, you know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah, family first, all this stuff, you know? I'm like, no, you know what I mean? Like, we were part of the machine.

And he said, and next thing you know, he's offering me time off. He's like, hey, if you need time off, you take time off. And then he said, he's like, but if. If something comes up with you again that you haven't already talked to me about prior to it happening, you're out of here. But I understand that kind of language, you know? I was like, but again, it was that. It was like, hey, I'm entering a brotherhood. Like, I'm. I was already in a really, every unit that I left, I was not disgruntled at. Like, I wasn't like, ah, screw these guys. I want to move on. It was like, man, these were, you know, I enjoyed it. I wanted to be where I was. It was just time to move on, you know? And so here I'm in. Like, something's different here with these guys. Like, they mentioned this brotherhood. We talked about brotherhood there. Like, it's a little bit even different. And so I made it. And the significance of that, obviously very significant at a low point in my life, you know what I mean? This male figure that has now provided me encouragement, structure, you know, I mean, in the way ahead, you know, like, hey, keep kicking ass, don't come in my office again.

You know, and all language I understood. He ended up getting killed in Afghanistan. Yeah, after the gy, you know, kicked off. So again, just men like that in my life. So I finished up the. I'm in this new kind of brotherhood thing. So then I get my team and 7th group. I went to 7th group, you know, Central and South America again, man, I won the Super bowl again, you know what I mean? Like championship. And it's all pre war, I mean, it's all no war time frame, you know what I mean? So Central South America, pretty dicey, you know, drug on war, you know, I mean, it was at least dangerous place to go, you know, super happy, loved the culture, loved the people, you know, it was dangerous as shit a lot of times. And, and there was a lot of good times. And yet that the pool of quality of men that were around me was even better, you know, I mean, there was, I, you know, there was guys that I was trying to be like, you know what I mean? It was like, holy crap. And again, the first team that I rolled into, like, the team sergeant is an ex unit guy, you know what I mean?

So there's that, you know, who's in Grenada and all kinds of stuff. And then there's a couple other guys on the team that were veterans of the El Sal wars, you know what I mean? El Salvador and all that. So here I am again on this new team now, being instructed or being gifted with. This is how you do it, boy, you know, like, like learn and, you know. And at that time, I was 26 years old, unbroken. I was a beast physically, you know, and a little bit cocky, you know. And some of the older guys, you know, were a little out of shape, but I didn't know what they had gone through because I didn't know what it was like to be on a team for six years, you know, what happens to your body in special operations, you know. And, uh, I was a little judgy internally. Thank God it never came out of my mouth, man. But I just was like, man, I really need to learn this job. Like, don't be judgmental. Like, learn, man. And I just watched how these guys work downrange, you know what I mean? I mean, a non combat time, you know, we would go and we were just doing foreign internal defense and, you know, teaching pois and working.

But they were wizards, man. You know, I mean, they. You want to talk about if somebody that can create, they were special forces soldiers by with and through and, like, they could mobilize a battalion at their whim, which, you know, I mean, through buzz that just gets your foot in the door, man. You haven't really done. In those guys minds that are working in those units. There's a shit. They don't give a shit, man. Like, you've just got your good job. You got your foot in the door.

Now you get in there, especially with the guys that are putting you through. I mean, the Mogadishu guys, Tom Saddle and his boys, and we've interviewed Tom.

Yeah.

And, I mean, what was. And then knowing they know.

Yeah.

They know more than anybody else what you're about to walk into.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I would think that they. That had to be fucking tough.

Yeah, man.

I mean, those had to be some. Some hard men to please. And I would imagine that they. I mean, did it seem like they just despise you? Like, there's no way that you could ever rise to their expectation to be able to work alongside with them.

Wasn't that at all?

No shit.

Yeah, man. I mean, they were super. They were super tough at upholding the standard, so there wasn't any extra. Like, the standard was so hard, number one. But now the intensity level has gone up. Maybe it's always been that way, you know? I mean, I don't. I don't know. I only know my class and the classes after that, that I was cadre on. But it was like that level of intensity of the focus on the standard of doing it right, man, was off the charts. And we saw the man, small group, how many? There was no, I mean, there was probably ten to twelve guys in my little group, you know, so there was almost a one to one instructor. Like, you weren't getting away with nothing and they were not going to send a product to. Like, all of those guys had already, obviously, their instructor status. Now, they had spent, you know, years on the teams. Like, they're not sending body, any shit bag back to their friends. So there's that aspect of it, too, like, because there's a good chance that they'll be working with them, you know, because after they finish.

Finish that time as being instructed, they're going right back, you know, so that that's what keeps us so fresh. So, yeah, it was super intense, man. And then so was the normal pressure and then the self imposed pressure, because here I am now, another Super bowl win, right? Like now I'm going through the gate of this compound that I've been around for eleven years, and I'm actually going through the gate. So for a little while that, you know, and the intensity so had. And every week they made a decision where you were staying or not. I mean, that was common knowledge. They had a little meeting and with the instructors, it was where you were, whether you were staying or not. And there were guys getting. Getting chipped off, you know what I mean? And then, I mean, just because you made it through that, if you had to make it through the last board at the end, you know what I mean? It was intense, but I loved it, you know, meaning. And again, it was during that time, so that was just amazing, right? And so back to month two, you know, basically of a January timeframe.

My son was born in the middle of January, right? So. And during that time in the training course, you know, there's a lot of basic stuff that we were. They're doing at the time because they're getting the whole group up to speed because, you know, they're pulling from guys with all different backgrounds, you know, I mean, so getting everybody, setting everybody up for success along the way. So there's a lot of stuff, marksmanship wise, that I was already good at, and a lot of things. So my son was born and so awesome, you know what I mean? Two year old infant, you know, newborn and wife. Everything's good, you know, have a little bit of time to take care of that and families coming in to help take care of, you know, obviously very planned for because I got to be in this course, you know, so it was all good. Everything was good. And then some complications occur with my wife. She has very hard, hard time with pregnancies, and so. But it was. That was mostly during pregnancy. This was post, so usually no problems after that. Well, I don't know that there's a problem.

I'm on the range. Black suburban pulls up, you know, with the sard major of the training, you know what I mean? Who was a team leader in Mogadishu, by the way, so that whole crew, you know what I mean? So. So he shows up and he's like, yeah, we're spooner. Yeah, I'm fired. You know what I mean? Like this. Our major doesn't come. Yeah, you know, mean at the range and ask for, like, for only one reason, you're out of here. So I get in and he don't say shit. He's like, yeah, get in. Then we get in. And I'm like, I'm fired. You know what I mean? He's like, hey, your wife's okay, but she's in the hospital. There's been some complications. She's stable, but, you know, there's a lot going on. He's like, so you're gonna take this suburban. You're gonna take this cell phone, because 2001 timeframe, right? So we don't have iPhones and all that, you know? You're gonna take this cell phone, go take care of business. Go take care of your family. Keep me updated. Fuck out of here. So I do. You know what I mean? Roger that.

Thanks. You know what I mean? And I go, but in my mind, I'm like, what? Where am I? You know what I mean? Like, who does this? Like, I'm in a course that you can't miss anytime, man. I haven't even made it, you know, me through the first month, and now this is going on, whatever. So go through, and, you know, it's life. A lot of complications. We got septic. There was, you know, different. Different things that had happened, and it took a few days to get sables. So, I mean, I missed a couple of days, you know, I mean, because I got a newborn, a two year old, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot going on. And so I was like, hey, whatever. I know my priorities are straight, you know what I mean? The family is first in this scenario, you know what I mean? Versus the school. And they were just taking care of it. I'm heading. So we get it all settled in again, and after a couple of days, and I go back to work, you know, keep sar major updated. Everything's good. Back to work. And then it was after work this time, she ended up having to go again to the hospital, you know, me.

So it's another little stint. And so it was a lot, a lot going on, right? And so I know, I'm like, man, I'm going to get, at best, recycled, you know, here I am again, like, my little scenario. At least it's not me this time as a family situation. But it's like, same kind of scenario where, like, at best, I'm gonna get recycled. If not like, hey, man, you can't handle your own family problems. You probably don't need to be in this unit, you know, I mean, kind of deal. So. So anyway, I call this our major up and say, hey, sergeant major, everything settled. Like, he's like, 100%. Because he said, don't call me until. Because she knows she went and had to go back. He's like, okay, like, make sure it's settled before you call me back again. Like, take the time. Make sure your family's good. The support is there that you need, whatever you need. Meanwhile, this dude is, number one, taking care of me by allowing me to do that stuff. And his wife is taking care of my wife. Like, she's. She's. We don't know this. These people, they haven't said this, but without saying it, they didn't need to.

It's like, yeah, this is how we handle people here, our people. You know what I mean? It was like this fucking bizarro world to me. And it's like, like, coming. Calling my wife, checking on my wife. Like, who the fuck is she? Like, it almost weirded me out a little bit. Like, what did they put the fuck. Send it for them, you know? Cause I'm just. But it was just like, so I call sergeant major up, say, like, hey, yeah, it's good. I was like, we're good. We're solid. And I'm waiting for him just to tell me. He just didn't want to hurt my feelings along the way. Like, hey, we're going to recycle you into the next class. You've missed six days of training now, you know? And he's like, okay, you settled? Yeah. Good. He's like, all right, go to Raleigh. There'll be a. Because my guys, they were doing training out at Campbell with aircraft, you know? And it's like, hey, your team's already out at Campbell. There's a plane ticket waiting for you and Riley. Pick up a ticket, get on the plane, meet up with your team, continue with training.

I started laughing at the dude. Like, I'm like. I started laughing, and he's like, what, major? Like, do you want one of my kids? Like, no one does. Like, what do you mean? Like, he was supposed to tell me, like, no, I'm recycling, you know? And he's telling me to continue with the training, you know? And, uh, I was like, you want one of my kids or something? He laughs a little bit, you know? And he's like, hey, um. He's like. He's like, uh. He's like, hey, man, it's just the right thing to do. Why is that? Like, what the fuck, man? Who is this? I haven't even made it. You know what I mean? And, like, they're taking of me like I'm a unit member. You know what I mean? Like, I. Like, I'm.

Your mindset is I don't deserve this treatment.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And they're like, hey, yeah, this. As if, you know, and. And here's another example of, like, this next level of brotherhood, this next level of care for the family. You know what I mean? This, like, okay, I'm in a different, different spot, you know, and this is the end. These are. With these guys, you know? I mean, so it bursts that bubble of. Or begins to burst some of the bubble that, hey, to be a badass commando, you got to drink and tear up, you know, and all that kind of stuff. I mean, some of them do. And again, I'm not judging, but then there's also a large group that they don't. They're just total badasses anyway, you know what I mean? Like, and so I was meeting all these different kind of. Kind of dudes and everything, you know, so. So my wife's better. Everything's good, you know, make it through the course. Yeah. So I'm. So I'm in, you know.

What did it feel like getting through that course to graduate when you're done in 911 and just. I mean, you're the first class to graduate OTC at Delta.

I hadn't thought of that till you.

Just said it post 911.

Yeah.

The longest war in USS.

Yeah. Yeah, man, I was fucking pumped.

What do they say to you?

Welcome in, like, here's your team room. Here's your team, sergeant. Here's. Let's get to. In typical fashion, it's like, hey, great job.

No, hold on tight. It's going to be a wild ride.

Oh, no. So then whenever it comes. And now. Then you get with the team, right? And so that was the next kind of cup check, you know, sanity check for me was like, you know, how good can these guys really be?

What squadron did you go to?

It was a. Yeah. So it's like, hey, how good could these guys be, you know, because I've been doing CQB, NSF for a while. Been to CQB schools and stuff. It's like, now OTC level, it's like, you know, and that which up the game. It's like, can they really be that much faster and that much better? Like, because I don't have a point of reference, you know what I mean? And I'm a little bit arrogant guy myself, you know? And so when you get to the team, and then my two, I see, you know, he says to me, it's like, hey, when we're going on team runs, you know, doing CQB in the buildings. He's like, hey, man, just throw chem lights and try to keep up. And I'm like, okay. Like, yeah, watch. You know, maybe in my little bit of arrogance, like, you know how good I am, you know what I mean? It's like. And so what did I do for the next few weeks? Throw chem lights and try to keep up, you know what I mean? Because it was. These guys have been working together as you experience, you know, get, man, you get on a team and these dudes have been doing it at this level together for this, like that's.

I mean, there's intuitive shit they're doing, you know what I'm saying? They just see how he's leaning and he knows what he's doing already. Like, these guys know each other in the house under nods. Like, it's incredible. So there I am again, just trying to keep up, man. I'm trying to. I mean, I'm always going for the title, man, and it's like. But in that crew of men, that crew of warrior, like that, man is like, like, holy crap, man, let me just be amongst them, you know, and have a decent reputation amongst them. Like, that was like the goal. I mean, some days you'd win, you know, be on top, but then you knew that they were coming. It was that healthy competitiveness, man, where it was just like, it was incredible. It just created this fighting force that was unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life. And now I was part of it, man. So I was. I was ecstatic. And again, with my, my belief system in place, is that okay? If I'm not supposed to be here, I wouldn't have made it. So I'm supposed to be here. So be all in until I'm not, like living moment, the moment, living in the present, living in the day, having in the plan, and like, learn your job, get to work, and like, let's go and let's go to war, man.

Like I am, you know, I mean, that's been eleven years, you know, I mean, like my whole life for this moment.

Yeah.

Like, and obviously there was some night naive to that because, I mean, I experienced some of it in the Gulf war, but just a taste, you know, so there was a little bit of naive of what that meant, but I. I kind of knew what it meant, you know, and I was again. Now I'm almost twelve years or twelve years in a lot of hard stuff. I was pretty hardened, trained, hardened mind, body and spirit. Dude, you know, like, I was about as prepared as you can get to go to war.

How long was it after you graduated OTC, before you went out the door on your first appliance?

Two months.

That's it?

Two, maybe three. I'm not sure. A couple, but minimal. No more than three.

Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get into your first deployment.

All right.

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If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes and leave the Shawn Ryan show a review. We read every review that comes through, and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show. All right, Tom, we're back. And we had just finished up delta selection. You're on your team. You're getting ready to deploy. Where are you going?

Yeah, so that first one that went to is Afghanistan. That was in the fall of zero two. And we were on a, it was just TST, time sensitive target task force that was there. So we just, if anything hot came up, we went and did it. So it was a lot of time on baseball, but my first mission in the unit was pretty, not anything glamorous on the end results, but I got a welcome to the party results of that. So we were going without the whole story of the mission. It was going to go get a bad guy kind of deal in that level of target set. And we were loaded up. We had to get on one hundred thirty s and c, one hundred thirty s and fly to another town. So we get on in the back of these trucks. I'm in the back of this truck, and I'm holding this, basically this big device. It's like a piece of plywood, two by fours. It's a whole sheet of plywood. You know what I mean? As far as. So I'm holding it in the back of this pickup truck going out to the c 130 because it's going on the plane with us.

And as soon as we get up to the airfield and take a right to head towards that, there's a c 23, a german airplane sitting there. And as soon as we turn that way, he gasses. As luck would happen, he gasses that plane. So that whole sheet of plywood that I'm holding onto and holding down with the two by fours that I'm holding, of course, takes flight, and that thing comes up, snaps my nose right here big time. Hits me in the cheek there and knocks me back. I mean, it's just like a big piece of flywood flies away like a piece of paper, except with me in the middle of it. And so it knocked me back. And the other guys in the team back there, you know, I come to set back up in the back of the pickup truck. I sat back up, and then I was like, this can't be happening. Like, I just took a shot, you know what I mean? There's blood already pouring out. I'm thinking it's mainly coming from Adam. I busted my nose before, you know, it's like, man, it's coming out. Like, holy shit. Everybody's gonna be coming to check on me.

Like, there's no way I'm not going on this mission, you know? Like, this is my first. This is my first one, like, ever. My whole life has built up to this moment, and I get hit with a two by four in the nose. So. So my two ic, he comes around to the front of me, and I'm thinking that the blood's coming out of my nose because there's a lot on my kit coming out of my nose. And he comes around, and he's like. Cause they seen it happen, you know? He comes around, he's like, you all right? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay. I didn't know that the nasal artery had got cut right there, and it was like, dumping blood out. And he's like, yeah, man, no, you're not. And I was like, man, no way. And then I was like, this isn't happening. There's no way that this is happening to me right now. And everybody else is loading the plane, you know, all the rest of the guys are loading up the plane. Some guys are coming by. And so the medic comes up to me, and he's like, look at me.

I'm looking at him. He's like. And I'm starting to go like this. He's like, look at me. And I'm like. I'm like, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. And I was like, I'm not okay, you know, almost pass out, lay down, get my feet up, you know, just from the. The shock and the little bit of a blood loss thing, elevating my feet. Meanwhile, everybody's loading up the plane. Dude's taking my shotgun off of me, you know what I mean? The other dude's pulling charges out of my pants, you know what I mean? Because obviously I'm not going, so I'm going to have to cover down. And I was like, there's no way this is happening, man. And so then I start feeling better. Like, I leveled back out, and I sat up, and I was like, hey, Mike, I'm good. The medicine. Hey, man, I'm good. He's like, yeah, Steve's got a blast off of you, you know what I mean? The Pa guy that was there, and he comes up old, crusty dude. You know what I mean? A warrior. And he's like, looks at me. He's like, you are. And I'm like, yeah, I'm good.

I'm totally. I'm good. And he's like, okay, get on the plane. And so I was like, get back. Grab my shotgun, you know, go back getting my shit from everybody. And then it took a long time for that. Put some ice on it and just to get it stopped from bleeding. And then we did a full mission, you know. I mean, it was regular. The mission was just a regular mission, going after bad guys, but it was the first one, so it was. I didn't know how I would be in combat sober. That's a new thing, you know? I didn't. Armed with a God in my life, and I was like, hey, how I'm gonna. I know what I was like when I was hateful, angry man with no God in life. Now what am I? And I know a lot of that is still in me. I didn't change who I was. You know what I mean? It's like, so I was a little bit concerned, like, hey, am I going to go too far? Am I going to. You know what's going to happen? You know what I mean? I wasn't really afraid of it, but I hadn't experienced it yet, you know?

And so we get on target. We do the target. It's a normal one. Good guys mix with bad guys. We rolled up the bad guys, didn't mess with the good guys, you know what I mean? So I was appropriate in my response to every single thing on that particular one. No gunfire. We were on it super fast. A lot of hands on stuff, but I was absolutely appropriate, you know, when applied force and when not to wouldn't be kind. And then loaded everything up on the chinooks, you know what I mean? Pulled the bad guys out of there with that. And that was under deficit, you know. I mean, I had lost a good amount of blood. I mean, my nose, man, was, like, literally crushed in from this side. I mean, it was. It was bad. And I was so happy for a multitude of reasons, you know what I mean? Like, hey, I did my first wartime hit, you know what I mean? Like, that was super cool. And then, like, now I'm part of the war, you know what I mean? All this time, once 911 happened, I'd never got get my hands on somebody, you know?

And so it was like, all the way. And then appropriately professionally, you know, whatever that was. And I didn't go too far, which was good on the personal side because like I said, I did have a little bit of concern, like, am I just going to be a rage monster or. Because that's what I was at one time in my life, you know, so it's fine. I was like, yet again, it's just like, okay, man, trusting in God, you know what I mean, and doing what I'm supposed to be doing, it just makes me exactly who I need to be, you know, either merciful or merciless, you know what I mean? As long as I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and handling my business appropriately, putting in the work, to spend spiritual, mental, emotional, all of it work, you know what I mean? Hey, I'm going to make some really good decisions combat wise.

How did you mentally prepare for that first up? I mean, you only had two months with your.

Yeah.

Unit, with your guys before you deployed.

I so just was so ready. I mean, it was like eleven years of mental preparation for it. I mean, again, being a seasoned kind of guy, it was, it was like, I didn't make light of it by any means, you know, when it was the real deal and it was in a foreign land and, you know, I mean, it was all of that, but it was all, it was way more exciting than it was anything, you know, I mean, like apprehension kind of wise. Like, man, I was just super, super excited, man, you know what I mean about with these guys doing this stuff, like for our country and for my family, you know what I mean? Because we've seen what they can do to our families, you know what I mean? Because that's a lot of guys we have the discussions of like, hey, you know, military always came before my family. And if you're not, and if someone who's in the military is not saying that they're lying to themselves, you know what I'm saying? Because when the military calls, you have to answer that call and it's a voluntary army. So, hey, I've chosen to place that ahead of my family.

It's just the truth. But I believe that by doing that, that's how I'm protecting my family, you know, with the skill set that I have and the abilities. So, I mean, I would say by going and doing all those dangerous things is absolutely how I'm taking care of my family, you know, back at home, even though assuming all that risk, but yeah, that.

So, Tom, you have so many. Twelve deployments.

Yeah.

Over a thousand direct actions. We're not going to be able to cover all that.

No, we will not.

So I want, I want to. We're going to jump around a little bit.

Okay.

So with all of that experience and thousands of operations, let's talk about the first one where you engaged somebody. Okay, let's go right there. Where are you?

The op was, well, the setup was these guys were going to conduct attacks on Americans. The next morning through signal intelligence they found out that they were loaded for bear, had bombs, had weaponry, and they were going to conduct attacks on Americans. Our job was to go in on helos and then ground assault. Just a simple land and sort it out. So whenever we landed, we landed real close. Couldn't quite land on an l, you know, just because of the. Due to the terrain. And as soon as we landed, um, I was in the, on this, this lead bird closest to the ropes, so on the tail end and the other bird was landing over this way. And so big thing in my mind was to be, it was all night vision was to be like looking for that first assaulter that came in my spread from the other bird, you know, I mean, obviously what's going on in front. I got my guy to the left, but really like, because I don't, I don't know where they're gonna land, I don't know what angle they're gonna come in on, but I need to see whenever one of our assaulters comes into my line of sight.

So I got my mind on that piece, but dude ends up they didn't have any weapons on them in the vehicle, which is weird, like dumb. So, homie, we're getting off the bird and he goes around the back of the car, opens up the like kind of the trunk. He has like bed rolls and stuff on top of all the guns. So he's doing all this and meanwhile we just closing the desk, you know, me and start closing the distance, we're just moving up because it's like, you know, his intel, you don't know if it's 100%, you know, but got an idea what he's doing. Then he gets everything that he needs out of the way and he picks up, he gets. Picks up a PKM and because I know it cuz just the cutout handle in the side and as soon as he cleared, I mean it didn't even clear the, you know, the trunk well, but as soon as I seen that it was a weapon there in his hand, that's whenever I started shooting him and it was clear as day for me as far as, again, so much training, so much time and I was so hyper alert.

Not so much on the situation with the guy, but because I was looking for my assaulter coming in, I was, like, super high alert. But, I mean, it was like every dot, every. I mean, I knew where every single round was landed, you know, until everybody else came online and started shooting also. And then everybody got out, and it was a big gunfight at that point. Well, you know, I mean, they. They didn't get much shooting then, but we did kind of deal.

How many of them were there?

There was one, two in one vehicle and three in another. So five total, but there was two teams were so eight guys on the ground, you know, I mean, it was over in 10 seconds. You know what I mean? They didn't get any rounds off on us, and we knew it was the right one. But that was the first time that, you know, I mean, I had killed another human being. 100% sure me right then at that time.

So throughout the. Throughout our interview so far, you've talked a lot about God. You've talked a lot about kind of, you know, being merciful. Yeah, merciful less. It sounds like you have been almost concerned that you would. It would go out of control, that you were gonna. You were gonna embrace this rage, and it didn't. I mean, so how did it feel the first time?

Nothing. Yeah. None. It was like, I did my job. Like, finally, you know, not like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, kill. I'm not a sociopath. You know what I mean? So it's like, hey, my job as a war fighter, you know, I mean, as a, you know, me, hunter of men, you know, bad guys, is like, okay, I finally just did my job. It was almost like a relief. Like, finally, you know what I mean? I, like, I fulfilled my job description. Not like, you know, a notch on the gun or I got my kill on, you know, none of that. But, like, pure, professional, and purely, like, man, all right, I did my job as a Christian.

Did it. Did it. Did it affect you spiritually at all?

None at all.

Is there any question, like, zero, what happens now?

Yeah. No, I had none. I was super clear. So I wasn't one of the. And I'll just categorize it. I'm kind of stereotyping. But I wasn't one of the crusader guys, right? Like Islam, Christianity. You know, some guys developed that crusader kind of bond for me. And my relationship with my God is. And I am a Christian, but how my relationship works with is, like, when I go to before my maker, and I will, and I tell him, what? I'm done. I'm going to tell him that I murdered people because murder defined is, you know, you had a plan and you executed the plan and you killed a human being. Like, I believe that 100% absolutely is necessary and I have my whys of why this human being needs to die and I killed them. But it's going to be up to him whether he says yeah or no on it. You know me, but I'm not going to hide in some piece of the Bible that says it's okay that I kill other human beings because this says that if that is the truth, cool, I win on that anyway, you know, but I'm not going before my God with some weak ass shit about like, what so and so taught me.

And I was raised, you know, but that's just my own personal belief. A lot of guys fully, you know, need to and understand and embrace that mindset, but no, without a doubt, this human being had met the criteria of being executed, you know, and I had, and I have never had a problem with that.

It's never affected you mentally?

No, it has affected my humanity, yeah. But as far as in my job description, doing the job, um, no thrill or glory of it and no, just, and it's like just the job, just the professional piece of it. Um, but it. What did, what was the question? I got lost.

Well, basically what I was asking is, you know, a lot of guys, I think a lot of guys sometimes struggle with, with, with that, you know, with, well, this just happened, now there's no turning back.

Yeah, I know what you mean now. And I never have, man, I never, and I'll expound on it. The only time that the killing got to me was whenever started chipping away my humanity of it. But as far as.

What do you mean by that?

Yeah. So what I mean by that is my belief system is I really, after all that I've learned about humans and spirituality and everything, like, hey, man, we're not, we're not, we're not meant to harm one another's. We're not, we're not meant to do that. We're meant to be social, meant to procreate, you know what I mean? And provide for one another, you know what I'm saying? Like, I believe that at our core that's what it is. However, we also know that humans are humans and you know what I mean? And war has been forever and people, some people just need to be killed, you know, like, I don't really know how to describe it. So. 911, right? 911 happens our country, collective decision was a reckoning. Like, they killed us, y'all go kill them. As a nation. I mean, there were some folks that. Humanitarians that, you know, understood peace and that kind of stuff, but, you know, I mean, that's what we all went and did, and that's the job description. But this is what I learned throughout all the deployments. And, I mean, it killed a good amount of people, is that when a human being that takes another human being's life and they're not a sociopath or a psychopath, it chips away at the humanity.

And I'll just use I statement because I don't want to impose anything that I'm saying on any other veteran or any other person. This is only on me, is that over the years and over the deployments and over the amount of times done, the humanity starts going away. Meaning it's. What am I trying to say with that? It's easier for me to be hard. Little calloused around my heart as far as lose the humanity of it.

I understand.

Yeah. Where I'm not looking at this person like, I'm looking at this as a person until I pid them. And now they're not a person, you know, or, you know, they're demonstrating a threat. Now they're not a person, however, they are a person. And as a human being, taking another human being's life, in my experience, there was a toll on me because I am a human being. And over that amount of time, you know, I mean, it just chipped away and chipped away and chipped away. So I got more calloused, more kind of hardened. Yeah. And then add TBi to that, which is part of the story we'll get to, you know, I mean, it. It turned. You know, it turned. But that was that what I mean about the humanity piece of it. But. But I fully get back to me being a realist, man. Like, war is hell. Like, they didn't just come up with that slogan, you know what I'm saying? Like, that was come from the generations that experienced it, man. All the innocence that dies, all of the. I mean, that's war. Like there is. That's war. That's what we're signing up to do, is war.

Then we experience it, and then we get to decide whether we want to experience it again or not. The most comfortable I've ever been in my life is in war. That is, uh. With all the horror, with all the stuff that I hate, with all the stuff that I love me as a. As a. As a warrior as a human being and the God given gifts and the training that I've done and put on this planet, man, there's the time whenever I would feel home the most, man, is whenever I was making that walk at the balad airport, you know, from the plane going to get our gear to disperse to wherever we were deploying to in Iraq, man, it was like. And there's a why behind it, you know what I mean? I mentioned number one, it's what I was built to do. It's what I'm wired to do. It's what I've wanted to do by choice. And, man, just the aspects of it, the rules are clear. Crystal clear. There's no easier living meaning decision making to me and ever than in war. It's killed or be killed. And it's, uh. You're trying to kill me.

I'm trying to kill you. Whoever doesn't die, you know what I mean? Today, you know, wins this round. And, um. It's just so clear.

Do you think you ever became addicted to it?

Yeah, I did, man. Once I got sideways with it after I got my TVI and stuff, yeah, I got sideways with it because something had broken in my head, too, man. There was a little bit of factors, but then I got to the point, like. Like I said, it was super professional for a long time. And then zero six, you know what I mean? Whenever I got my TBI, then it became personal. And that's. And that's whenever there was a little bit of soul sickness that happened with me. Again, it was still done correctly, but the intent behind it had changed. You know, it was a lot more personal, and that was more damaging to my person later on. Not at the time, but to your point of, like, addicted to it, it's like, yeah, there was one point. Even said it to my brother whenever we were driving down the road, coming back from a meeting in between deployments, as I've said to him, he's like, I don't remember which deployment it was, eight or nine or when in between. And he's just. He's just like, hey, man, how. How long are you gonna keep going, man?

You know? And I was like, what? Like, I'm not gonna stop, you know, I mean, like, they're doing it, I'm doing it. My team's doing it, I'm doing it. And then I thought about it more, and then I told him at that time in my life, which was probably 0809 near the end, is I came in, the only time I felt, feel anything in life is when I'm in a gunfight. And then I looked over at him and he said, he's had tears running down his face. And I looked at him and I was like, fuck, you know, he's like, man, something's changed. Like, something's wrong, man. Like, that's wrong. Like, I should be able to. I mean, I have a wonderful family. I have a. I have all of this wonderful stuff in my life. And the only thing, what I just said was the truth. And that was the only time I feel anything is whenever I'm in a gunfight. And I knew that something had changed.

Do you understand why that?

Why that is completely.

What is it?

So everything was professional, you know what I mean? Throughout, man, I was pro unbothered. Really tough times, lost some guys, you know what I mean? Like, dealt with a whole lot of things, but the things that I began to have to deal with wasn't the killing, you know? It wasn't. Wasn't what? War. The thing that I was completely and totally unprepared for and fucking crushed me was caring for wounded american soldiers. Like that. That was. That was what got me. And so it. Like. So there was really. And thank God I was there. I mean, I always sing. Cause, I mean, the level of medical trauma, medical experience, you know, that we have. I mean, working on live tissue. Like, we were more experienced than most medics, you know, and so. But I would be in these three different situations that were mass casualty events to some different degree. The first one was in zero four, whenever we were out with conventional guys, and it was. You know, there was one got killed, and eight of them were wounded, and it was just me and another operator providing medical support to him and their medic, who was psychologically checked out at the time.

Not. Not as a negative comment, but. You mean, he had the. The freeze mode. Fight flight freeze. He was just stuck in freeze for a little while. So we were working, and then he ended up. Came to. So I was working on Americans during that time, and it was just. Just the feeling of it, you know what I mean? And their blood on my hands and stuff. It was like, that was the reality of war to me, was american blood. And then the second one got a little bit even more intimate. Was zero four timeframe. I had a lot of significant emotional events in zero four.

What was. Was that the invasion of Fallujah?

That was part of it. That was one of them. So in zero four, which it ties into what we're talking about. So it won't derail us too much in zero four, you know, that's when everything changed, you know? Zero three time we were chasing the deck. Everybody's chasing the deck, you know, and now the deck's gone, or mostly gone. All the big boys are gone, and now they're talking about these foreign fighters, you know, it's like, fuck is that? We're chasing the deck, you know what I mean? And during that time frame, other than the guys on the initial invasion, that there was a lot of warm that they fought, you know? And then there was just pockets of it, though, after that, you know. And a lot of times we were running around the country, like, with impunity, you know what I mean? Like, we're doing whatever we wanted, how we wanted, and not really, you know, really getting into, like, hammered by it. There was no. There was no ieds at that time, either. That was a new thing. You know what I mean? That was new. So, zero four, the whole war had changed.

Even though it was Iraq, back to Iraq, you know, that was when they just. My. One of my deployments started whenever they hung up the Blackwater guys, you know, when they first hung those guys up, that was when our trip first kind of started. We were in Ramadi, and so that's where we were. So prior to the first battle of Fallujah, we were in Ramadi doing different stuff, and then there was. There was a mass casualty event. So we're at our little base that we were at. The big base was called Junction City. There was a big marine base. You know, it was all that in Ramadi. And then they came over the radio. It's like, hey, anybody with medical training come to cash at Junction City? I was like, fuck. All right. You know, so we go over there and Bethesda, the surreal kind of stuff, you know, it's like, okay, they're calling for everybody that's a full up cache. Like, it's a running cache already. Like it's something ginormous. Figured they brought in a convoy or something, you know, because you normally hear mortar fire and shit. I mean, it's Ramadi and zero four, man, it's hot.

And so we're going over there. We don't really know what has happened. We're supposed to be going to the cache, but we come by this big open field and look across this open field, and there's a small crater there. And then there's three dudes. One guy, he's dead, you know, and the. The one guy, of course, is his best friend or buddy, who's doing CPR on him, and then there's somebody, the medic, you know, that was just allowing him to continue to do that because that was obvious, obviously his best friend, and because he's dead as. And so we go running up there, and it was like. And we had one, a unit medic with us, you know, and we actually had a few surgeons that were traveling with us, so we had, like, God had placed the dream team for this event on top of what they already had. I'm talking, like, almost three surgeons were with us in our. So that goes down. So we see that. And our medic, he understood what was going on. Like, this guy couldn't stop doing that because that's his buddy. Like, he's gonna die before he stops doing that.

So he grabbed him, you know, and he's like, hey, man, he's dead. Like, I'm a medic. You know what I mean? You know? And then he was. And then the other medic took over. Hey, where's everybody else? Because this is not what they needed. Everybody. It's like everything else is at the cash. And we still hadn't known what had happened. We didn't know what had happened. So what happened is they were getting ready to do a big convoy, like the Baghdad or wherever they were going. They were, you know, on base, you know, in a protected area, somewhat protected area. And they were going to do a convoy brief. Hey, bring everybody in, right? They were given a convoy brief with, like, 50 vehicles. I mean, it was shit ton of dudes. So there's like 60 people in a, you know, corralled up in a small group. And then 82 millimeter mortar lands perfectly in the middle of it. Perfectly in the middle of them. I couldn't make it up. And they didn't have most, you know, they appropriately didn't have their armor on a lot of them because they didn't need it. You know what I mean?

Like, they're in the fox. You know what I mean? They're where they can be. So it destroyed them. So when we got to the cache and we made the corner and came back around, there's 32 dudes laid out, bleeding out. Probably at least ten of them are, like, bleeding out right now. There's already about half an inch of blood on the whole little concrete pad that we were on, on the back of this little building. And, man, and it's summertime, you know what I mean? It's hot. Or springtime. It's still hot as shit. And so we come back there, and we're like, wow, over, like, just start working, you know what I mean? So we just immediately start plugging holes and everything. There's, I mean, it was huge event. You know, three guys had already died. I mean, it was so much that 32 guys got medically evac'd out. So not just little ones here, they were like, we put them on chinooks, 32 of them. Like, that level of. So that was like, and, you know, mass casually defined as there's more wounded than there is folks that can help the wounded, you know.

And so, of course, you know, everybody went to work. It was, you know, we just all went to work plugging holes, tying stuff off stick. I mean, everybody, we were just all working. And then all these little. I mean, you experienced them too. All these little surreal things that would happen. So guys that were on the gurney that were bleeding a lot, and it was super hot outside, you know, and dripping blood. Dripping blood. And then there's this, like, stalagmite of coagulated blood, you know, and then this little stalactite of coagulated blood, you know, just looking at going, fuck is that? You know, so it's just like the odd things is what always hang me up. And so we were constantly working for a few hours, and then it turned into it should have been a selection event, you know what I mean? As hard as that was and almost passing out, chugging water. And so everything calmed down, you know. So emotions aside, everything calmed down. And so we started cleaning up. Right now it's to clean up the whole. I mean, it's just all the blood everywhere got the guys out, you know what I mean?

And so we're cleaning it up. And then I just had this overwhelming. I started tripping out a little bit. Like, now the emotions, you know, I mean, are well enough in me, man, of, if I just didn't want, um, I just didn't want their blood to soak into that fucking ground, you know, I mean, in that place, you know? So I was like, scooping it up, doing all this stuff, and nurse comes over, you know, and she's, you know, been around seasons nurse, and she sees I'm kind of got a little bit of something going on, you know? And she's like, hey, what are you doing? I was like, yeah, I'm cleaning. She's like, okay, need any help? Nope. Okay. So I keep cleaning, you know what I mean? And then I'm. Then I start getting weird with it, you know what I mean? Like, I got a scrub brush, you know, like, trying to get up little micro pieces of, and there's, like, puddles of blood everywhere else, you know, I mean, so I'm like. It's just my mind trying to protect itself from the amount of emotion that is. That is overwhelming me at this time, you know, so I'm.

I'm tripping out pretty good, and I'm just trying to clean the blood, clean the blood, clean the blood. Nurse comes over again, she's like, hey, look up at her. And she's like, like, yeah, what? You know, she's like, what are you doing? I'm cleaning up. Like I said before, she said, I know. And she said, and you're done with that now because what's happening next is we're going to bring that fire truck over here, we use a water hose, and we're going to wash all this blood down because we're going to get ready to have to do this again. You understand? Like, roger that. So I got up and I was okay, you know, but it affected me, man. That was the first thing. I was like, no, four, you know, it really affected me. It was a big. I wasn't prepared, like all the things that we talked about prepared for. I was not prepared to deal with wounded american soldiers, you know, mauled, mangled, you know what I mean? Like, all of that piece, that was the first thing. And then the other kind of aspects of significant emotion.

How long did it take you to rebalance?

Pretty quick, man. It was like, because it was me and a couple of my buddies on the same team were together doing that piece, and then our other teammates there. So we got back, we talked. He was like, man, that was fucked up, right? And I was like, man, yeah. He's like, are you okay? You don't mean. Yeah, I'm okay. You all right? I'm like, man, I don't know. I mean, that was a lot, man. I was like, wow. You know? And so we were kind of processing. That was the thing about me being sober was like, I did not. I did not have the benefit of medication, you know, meaning external, whether that was with booze, you know. And again, not judging anybody that did their thing that way, like, but I just couldn't, man. So, I mean, I had to do a lot of writing, a lot of praying, a lot of talking, you know, but my connection to reality and war, I think that's the funniest because, you know, I've been sober quite a long time at that point, and I sponsor a lot of guys, but I'd be in Iraq on an iridium phone, like, calling my sponsors, checking on them, seeing how they're doing.

Like, hey, what? You going to meetings? Like, hey, you sponsoring those? You know what I mean? I'd be digging into a man of, like, well, what's happening? You know what I mean? But that was my touch back to reality, because there wasn't a lot of guys that I could talk to on the levels that I needed to talk to. We had the best of friends that would have done anything for me, but we were just on different paths in life, you know, spiritually or whatever, so I would always continue to do that. So we would process it some, even though we didn't call it that, it would be. At least we'd kind of talk about it a little bit, kind of aar it, you know what I mean? And, um. But it wasn't too awful at that point in time. But then some things started stacking up, you know? So then it was like, then we're at the first battle, Fallujah.

Hold on, hold on.

Yeah. How's.

I mean, are you telling your wife any of this stuff?

No. So the.

What are you telling her?

So my wife and I, like, that's why I'm so. You know, a husband and wife's dynamic is so special and so different between every single one of us, you know? So my wife and I are pretty freaking tough people, you know, as human beings. She's probably way not probably. She's way tougher than I am, and so. And we've never been the kind of folks where we share our whole worlds to one another, you know what I mean? We've always had this wonderful, great communication, honesty, respectful. We communicate what needs to be communicated. But, like, she. I didn't want her to know certain things about me, and she didn't want to know them either, because she doesn't want to think any differently of me, and I don't want her to think any different of me. More than likely, she wouldn't.

When you say things, do you mean what was happening over there?

Yeah. Whether it was. So. Here's an example, because it happened to us one night, you know, we're laying in bed, and. And I told him, going through a lot, you know, just from the deployment, just kind of, you know, but I'm hitting my meetings. I'm talking to my guys, you know what I mean? I'm working. I'm getting that process because we don't get into each other's business. She has her girls that she handles her stuff with, and I have my guys. And what we need to talk about together, we talk about together, and. But this is how. When we realized that, yeah, we're never gonna get it right between the two of us is. So we're sitting in bed, I'm going through a lot of stuff, and she's thinking that I told her it was a deployment. And she's like, man, he probably feels really bad cause he had to kill people, right? And you know what I mean? That's not the truth. And then, for me, I'm feeling super bad because the guys, the injured guys, you know, wounded Americans, you know what I mean? That's what I was trying to reconcile, you know?

I mean, was war, and this is part of war, and, like, piecing all that stuff together that no one had talked about us yet. And so she finally just came out with it and said, like, hey, I know you're upset. I know you don't want to talk about it, but I want you to know it's okay. And I know that you're upset because you had to kill people. And I started laughing, and she's like, what? I'm like, what? I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, what are you talking about? I was like, no, I don't feel bad about it at all. And she's like, well, I don't need to know that. And I was like, okay, so here's our rules moving forward. We won't talk about what happens unless it's necessary for us to talk about them. You know? So that's our little dynamic. So a lot of. A lot of the stuff, like, Lori won't even watch a lot of this, you know what I mean? I was like, hey, someone still.

To this day.

Yeah. Because she doesn't need to. She doesn't want to. She has no desire. She doesn't care. It's not. And she's not impressed. You know what I'm saying? She's. She's always been my grounding agent, you know what I mean? She's been what's connected me to reality, true reality, not what I may believe reality is at the time, you know? So, yeah, she has no interest. Like, there was a lot of times, like, see me in training, teaching guys or talking about teaching guys. She's like, wow, I didn't know you knew that. You know? And I'm like, yeah, I kind of know stuff about this, you know, it's a big joke with us. But she's always been my. That's why she's my person, man. I. Yeah, wouldn't be. Wouldn't. Wouldn't have made it through all that stuff then and now. Yeah. So that. But stuff started, I think the kind of a theme that I've seen with. With some others, not. Not everyone is. There's a. For me, it was an accumulation effect. That's when I talked about that chip in the way of the humanity piece, you know, so I was, you know, it was more war, you know, and it was real and it was intense and there was a lot of gunfights, man, it was a lot of really messed up stuff all the way, especially bloody.

Oh, five into zero six and then in zero six six was where it all changed for me. Short version of the mission is that we.

No, short version.

Well, that OPSec wise, short version is we were on a three day mission with a conventional unit, this team that I was. It wasn't my team, it was all guys that I knew, but they were short at two Ic, and they needed me to come with them on this three day op. And it was in. They called it the triangle of death. Mahmoudea Yusufiyya just south of Baghdad. It was a southern foreign fighter pipeline. And that's when we had just lost a guy. You know, the trip before, they shot down three or four helicopters. I mean, it was. It was on, so we wanted to clean up that area. It's full of foreign fighters. And so it was good. And this. This battalion. So it was a battalion operation, and we were just there to augment and assist. And we had sniper team, and I was a two. Ic had team leader and two other dudes, so four of us. And so with this conventional unit doing battalion ops, I mean, it was textbook, you know, like, companies out, you know, mortars in the back, fire support blocking positions, you know what I mean? It was like textbook.

It's kind of epic in this shitty area, but it was also kind of a setup. Like they knew that we were coming, you know, and, um. And those were real fighters, you know, that are there. That's where they had, um. It's the old russian power plant where they had, uh, mangled the 101st guys that got, um. That they mangled them all up. Remember, they captured them and that was that same area, okay? Same bridges, same places where they found them. So we were in that area and we're helping them out with fires and all the different stuff, but we also got a sniper, you know, duties that we're doing well, man, we're taking like, easy 20 rounds, probably more, but minimal. Like 20 rounds of mortar fire within a hundred meter radius of the position that we're at. You know what I mean? Like, it's damn near dial, you know, I mean, they're just walking it, adjusting fire on each one. And it's along the, you know, along the river, so it's all that single canopy jungle, you know, where they're firing the mortars from. So companies are going out looking for them and that kind of stuff.

So, so we're sitting there eating all these rounds. And in this area that we're at is our sniper position. And then you got, the rest of the battalion is out doing ops. Headquarters is in an area, but the mortars are at near our position. So you've got the mortar tubes are there and the mortar gun teams and in this little trailer, the pre existing structure that was there, but it's literally a single wide trailer that's there. The FDC guys, mobile ballistic computers, you know what I mean? The mortars, the mortar guys, they're in that trailer because they're running fire missions out of there. They're dropping mortars for the teams that are out. And we're just doing that. So we eat all those rounds and we go and talk to the command. Because they were friends of ours. The guys were like, hey, they're dialing that position then, man. Number one, we're not staying there. Number two is like, hey, let's. You don't have to have that position. Like, we can cover that bridge, you know what I mean? Back from over here. And they made the decision to keep guys there. And I don't fault them for it.

Cause it's conventional guys, you know, a conventional mindset kind of die in place positions, you know what I mean? It's just, I understand it. I don't fault them for it at all. I'm bsing with a couple of the dudes and, you know, we're all kitted up, everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing and, you know, and, man, then 82 millimeter mortar round lands 20 yards from me. And it landed in the trailer between the FDC guys. Right in between the two of them, right there. That motor rail landed right there in between them.

Damn.

So I'm. These two guys are hit. So, I mean, super close. Got blown off my feet, broken wrists, knocked out for don't know how short or how long. Um, but then come to, uh. And then when I come to, there's nothing. But, you know, I mean, I mean, we ate the round, you know, so it's just nothing. But dirt and dust and smoke and fire. Because, you know, you ever seen a single wide trailer, like a single wide trailer burned from end to end within about seven minutes? You know what I mean? So that thing was already on fire, cooking. And, um, but then I come to and I look around and realize, like, what has happened? And then, man, the screams start, you know, I mean, as far as the guys screaming, a sound that I had no one had ever prepared me for and that I had never heard anybody talk about. Now, I'd heard enemy screaming before. Different, right, wrong or indifferent, it's different to me. But it was Americans men screaming and making sounds that grown men shouldn't make, you know? And so it was like, all right, what? Overwhelmed and something's wrong.

Like, I mean, I knew it just got blown up, you know, so I was like, okay, whatever. So there's a fire. And I mean, I really, I know what had happened. Like, holy shit, it hit the guys. I knew there was four guys in that thing. So it's on fire. All their gears in there. I mean, they're fully kitted out. Combat lotus. So cook offs are about to start. There's all kinds of, you know, not primed. I can't think of the word. Live mortar rounds, 80 one's setting right there to be in the tube. They're prepped, ready to launch, you know what I mean? Fused up, ready to go. And so I'm pulling these guys out. Cause there's not, again, back to not really any medics around. And we got two guys that are up on the gun. Me and another operator are down there working, and all the other guys are working in pockets of different dudes. And. Yeah, man, and it was so just start working. I ended up putting, like, you know, four tourniquets on, you know, three different guys. I mean, they were bad blow blown up. And I'm just, man, I'm not.

Something's wrong. And so anyway, doing all of that stuff, but what had happened in that moment when I'm going through it and all the emotions that are going through me and my mind that has now received a traumatic brain injury because I can trace my life up to September 1 of 2006, what my life was like before that, and my life, what it's like, been after that. So. But during that time, everyone that I knew had been blown up by to some degree, you know, and, uh, so I didn't thinking nothing of it. But, um, at that time, what happened to that was my third mass casualty event. And it, uh, so I had something broken in my head. But also, man, my heart, like, broke into a million pieces, and then those million pieces broke into a million pieces, man. I was devastated. And the reason why I was devastated was because when we were around the conventional guys, especially, like, we were like big brother, you know, mean, hey, we're around. Everybody feels better. Like, hey, man, we're like, oh, fuck, dudes are here. Like, we're all right, you know? And I love that.

I mean, that's who I want to be, you know? But I had a. Just a little bit of distorted thinking and. And, you know, misconception that, like, I could actually protect them. It's unrealistic expectation. But my job was to. My job was to protect american soldiers, especially the ones that were around me. And so now, for the third time, I had failed to do that. So what does a protector do when he's failed to protect that which matters the most? Because deployed status, my loyalty chain is american soldiers the number one, and I can't protect them. I have failed in that mission. So it was devastating, man. And then everything and whatever else was going on inside of me now with a broken decision maker, you know, in the executive functioning of my brain, so it was the big heroes, you know, of that day, man, was. Because then the whole time they were packing the guys up, dead guys packaged up. It's daylight still, man. Those birds aren't coming. This is the triangle of death, they call it because the helicopters have been shot down. It's like, man, but I know we're just going through the motions to keep the morale up for as long as we can.

You know what I mean? Because how it affects wounded soldiers, you know what I mean? Like, hey, you got it. Hang in there and. Man, and just sitting there and then next thing you know, fuck yeah. Like, I mean, I was just like, dumping of emotion, man, because I just knit. I had already accepted that I'd already got into the mission planning of, like, how we're gonna talk through this out, like, why they're not coming. And like, hey, you know how I was trying to problem solve of, like, how we're gonna keep morale up because they're not fucking coming. So I was already way down that road, and then they started coming in, man. It was just overwhelming, man, because that was at that moment, at that time in that place, the most dangerous thing any humans could ever do. And I guarantee you that they got asked if they wanted to do that mission because no one. That was a no fly zone, period. End of story. That's it. And so they came in, man, and they came in and landed, and, you know, we loaded the guys up, went back. So, obviously super intense, but that wasn't the end of it.

So then. So I'm, like, hurting physically, you know, now and then all of that emotions going off, and then all of those screams just on repeat in my head, and I failed at protecting, you know what I mean? I'm happy, you know, I mean, all of that is just, like, on me, in me, and through me. And so, hey, we switch out with the guys on the tower, and some of the guys that we switched out on the tower was a guy I went to cue course with, you know? And so we switch out with that. So they're there. So here we are in our new position, September 2. So that was September the first when that happened. September 2. We were talking about dates and numbers earlier, right. My sobriety date is September 2 of 92. This is September 2 of 2006. Right? So at one of the mace. So I'm sitting there on that tower, so happy to be alive, right? I mean, like, whoa, I'm so happy to be alive. And with the same conviction. Felt like. Felt like such a coward for being that happy about being alive when all these others had died and all these other families had just lost their loved ones.

And I'm happy about being alive. Logically, I know that doesn't make sense, but in that moment, in that time, it was just overwhelming. So this. This miraculously beautiful day for me, meaning my sobriety date, you know what I mean? And everything that had come from that time, from then to now, now that same date, is this date, you know? And shortly after the sun came up, another mortar round landed right where my rucksack was, where those new guys that from the tower, we had just sweat switched off. Two more dead, more injured, more birds coming in on my sobriety date. Shit. Yeah, man. So it was a lot. So back to how do you recover? You know, how do you get. Get. How do you get back in the game? You know what I mean? Like, okay, I've just failed at my mission of protecting american soldiers. Well, you either quit, which I'm not going to quit. So then how do I reconcile it? It's like, okay, if I can't protect them from a defensive kind of posture, it's like, if there's not any bad guys to harm them, then they can't be harmed. So my next.

From that moment to my last deployment in 2009 was about us killing as many of them as could be or capturing as many as it could, but get them out of the. Out of the game, you know, me, because they can't hurt the others. But that's when it got personal, you know? And as I said, I had an undiagnosed, untreated TBI, which meant that my executive functioning and, you know, and from a physiological level, I was no longer processing, you know, chemicals, right. You know, at that time. So from that time on, it became personal and I was really good at it, you know, which was another really trippy thing. I didn't think too long about it. Again, we talked about my beliefs, and I trust that my God is going to put me exactly where I need to be when I need to be there. All that stuff. And it was a little bit trippy, right? Because it was. I was ate up with it. Like, I would do, um, all the target, a lot of the target packets, you know, I mean, I'm putting them together on the intel side of the house and I geeked out over that stuff, too, man.

I was a total nerd. And so I would get in on the targeting aspects of it and then obviously get in on the hits. Then I. Then I did the battlefield interrogations, too. So, I mean, start to finish, I was working the whole target to set up more targets. Like, that was my life and I loved it and I was good at it. And one of the weird things that I didn't study on too much is that, and it just is a testament to the power of my God, you know what I mean? It's like I'm one person, right, one brain doing these things. And in one aspect of my life, say a guy that I'm sponsoring, you know, through the twelve steps and in sobriety, my job is to help them build their spirit up, you know, me, because they're crushed. Like, how do I build them? You mean assist in building them as a man, as a human, their spirit, you know, everything. And I was doing that and I'm good at that. And then in the other field, my job is to break this man spirit, the complete opposite. And I'm really good at that, too.

It's like, how do those two things coexist? I don't know. I just say my prayers, I show up to work and I do what's in front of me. But the thing is now tying that back into, that's what the thing of what changed it for the war and back to the humanity aspect of it started really being effective because it was personal. None of my actions were the same. It wasn't like all of a sudden, I started running around killing people. You know what I mean? Because that wasn't the case.

Yeah.

It was just the intent, you know, was so much different. And then, you know, I mean, it's 2006.

Did you find yourself anticipating more meaningful, like hoping that they make. We talked about your first engagement.

Yeah, yeah. It was very hoping they'd vote to shoot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Because it was the whole thing. I mean, me and a lot of. A lot of us warriors that do what it's at that time.

Do what I need you to do.

Yes. So we can get back to normal gameplay. Back to the rules. The rules of war. That's what we would always say, is like, man, would somebody please just star shooting? You know, because prior to the shots being fired, you know, it's kind of like that terminator screen. Like, you know, you're looking and there's ten things coming to your mind, your process and everything. Is it a threat? Is it not a threat? Is it hydro? You know what I mean? You're like. It is consuming. You know what I mean? Just make it. Looking at the team, looking at movement. Where are we on Navy? You know what I mean? All of that stuff. And then they start shooting. It's like, now we all know the rules. Yeah, yeah. So it would. It would just be. But not in a. But even with me, like, wanting that to happen, it wasn't this viciousness of. It was just like, hey, man, let's vote quicker. Let's get on. Let's. Let's get the gameplay going.

You know, you vote faster.

Mm hmm.

What does that mean?

Meaning that, like, if they were gonna. Whatever the trigger was to meet the rules of engagement, which, you know, all that changed depending on the level of intel. If they were physically on target, that may meet the trigger for engagement, or if they had weapons or it was the demonstration, you know, how they moved the Inua aggressively kind of piece. So it was just the want for it to go to wherever way it was going to fast enough. Either come out quicker or.

Is that an individual vote or a team vote?

You mean a us guy side?

Yep.

I'm talking about them voting the bad guy side.

Okay.

No, I'm talking about the bad guys voting. Yeah. No, team wise, we were always on the same. On the same thing because everybody was in alignment with the Roe, you mean, so if. And if the Roe was depending on something, some missions were, you know, were kill targets. You know, I mean, where it's like, if they're on target, pid, that's the trigger? You know, I mean, if it was. If they have guns, they have guns. Trigger. If it was, they need to be shooting at us, then it needs to be, you know, I mean, so per Roe. But whatever that was, we wanted them to vote quicker. I mean, like, to get on. Let's get on with it so we can get on to the next mission.

So you're the only unit that I've heard that uses that term.

What?

Vote.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I've heard. Yeah, several. Interviewed several of you guys now. And. And I've just. I've not heard the term before.

Yeah. Because we're willing to go with. I mean, we're going to go with our Roe.

So the. So you're. When you say. When we talk about voting.

Yeah.

You're saying, are they going to vote to live or vote to die?

Yeah, absolutely. So if. Especially if it's like a vehicle interdiction or something that's hard and fast and you have to make quick, you know, quick decisions, you know, super fast or a lot of people, you're going to get hurt. It's like, it. It might be like, hey, if they do anything other than compliance, immediate and 100% compliance, then they voted that we're now rolling it into the next phase. You know what I mean? Which is now is it from capture to kill? Got it. Because of the Roe. But, yeah, it's always their vote, not us. Yeah. Yeah. So that as far as when I'm using it, that term.

Yeah. Makes sense.

Yeah. So that was. Yeah, man, it was a lot of those, you know, and I just had always had incredible teammates, man, and they. They really kept keep me on the rails because those last few years, you know what I mean? The last few deployments, you know, I was. I was not okay. Not okay emotionally. My performance was still fucking perfect. You know what I mean? But it was. I was already struggling a lot, you know, and I always knew that. I was like, man, I'm. Something's bad wrong. Like, because my tools aren't working. You know, prior to this point, all my tools, whether it was prayer, meditation, talking, reaching back, I mean, could always. One thing that I haven't talked about this whole time is my actual brother was with me in the 82nd in special forces and at the unit we were in different.

Wait, are you shitting me? Was that your brother was with you?

Yeah. Yeah. Not in the exact, like, with me on the ground in the same subunit. You know what I mean? But, like, we were in, like, when we were in the 82nd we were in different brigades, but we were in the 82nd together. When we were in special forces, I was in 7th group. He was in third group. When we were out at the unit, you know, he was in the breacher side. I was on the operator side. So we were. Our path was the same path along the way. Whoa. So I would be able to. Hold on.

So let's go back to that converse. I did not realize that. Yeah, so let's go back to that conversation in the truck. Yeah, so he was all, he's also an operator.

No, on the breacher side.

Okay.

So he was on the pure breacher side, but, you know, a lot of the same training criteria and on the same deployments, just different job set. Yeah. So he was, you know, direct support, you know, for saber. So it was, yeah, he was on all the targets doing all that stuff in all the fights and stuff, but he was on the breacher side and. Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. So.

So this isn't even.

So it's a family or do.

Yeah, I mean, it's. Well, what I'm getting at is.

I.

Had assumed that your brother was a civilian who had not been exposed to any type of. Any type of combat trauma.

Yeah.

And you struck an emotion with him when he realized that killing no longer affected you. Correct.

Yeah, whenever I said the only time I.

So that's even deeper than. Than what I had originally thought because he had been exposed to all of that.

Oh, he had been, yeah, man.

To hear you say it with his exposure to it is killing is. It's a fucking minute. It's part of it.

Exactly.

And. And. Wow.

Yeah, man. That was. That was why.

That's a lot of killing.

Yeah, man, because he was qualified. You know what I mean? Really knew what it. He had felt the loss. He had been in the fights, you know, I mean, all of that same thing. He was, you know, I mean, he got a different job while he was still being out there. He got moved into upper management kind of deal, so he wasn't, you know, on the ground as much.

But, you know, when a civilian sees the change, it's just. It's. It's a different level.

It's different even.

It's a different level because he'd been exposed and been a part of it. He's also somewhat. Has to be somewhat emotionally detached and calloused.

Absolutely.

And so to have somebody that. To have somebody close to you, it's just different. It's different than a civilian friend who has no.

No context, no point of reference.

Exactly. They have. There is no point of reference for them. They just. They know that it's sad, but for that. For that, it takes it to a completely different level.

Yeah. So I think a good comparison between the two is my wife, because she's badass, you know what I mean? As far as, you know, that piece. But she's civilian piece of it. And my brother, right? So my brother, you know, gets sad. And my wife sees, because you talked about seeing the change, seeing the difference. So my wife, who knows me inside and out, you know what I mean, just has to look at me and know what's going on. Her response was like, yeah, you brought the monster home. You know, in her words.

She said that?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Cause she knew what was going on, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, she's been in the game just as long as I have. I mean, not doing the game, but in that world, like, during our whole deployment time, you know, it was the kid. I mean, it was like some movie, man. Like, we lived the times. Like, there was six of us living in the same subdivision. All of our kids were kind of the same age. They were running around the neighborhoods, you know. I mean, we told them that, like, yeah, daddy's going on a soldier trip. You know, that's what we called them. You know what I mean? And then. But then as they got older, you know what I mean? And we're going to hospitals, and now we're going to Arlington. Well, what happened to Uncle Mikey? You know what I mean? Like, oh, he got hurt on a soldier trip. Like, oh, so now it's. You know what I mean? So all of our kids, like, are growing up during that time, so everybody had to grow up super fast, you know what I mean? The kids, the wife, and then the wives holding it down, like, I mean, single mother for, you know, at least half of my children's life.

She was a single mom through it, you know, and she's badass, you know what I mean? We don't hold. We're always respectful with our words, but we also don't hold back, you know? When she meant it was like, meaning like, hey, you need to do something about that, because now you brought the monster home.

How did that make you feel when she said that? Did you feel.

No. Well, it made me. The only thing that I felt like was like, damn, I wasn't doing a good job as pretending as I thought I was, because I knew, man, the switch had occurred, you know what I mean? I knew something inside had changed me, and I knew that for the time being, I was still going to continue on this mission that I was on.

What was it that triggered her to say that to you?

How I started reacting and not reacting, you know what I mean? And my distance, my emotional distance and how long it would take for me to recover from a trip, you know what I mean? As far as to be back present with the family, you know, and especially during that time, you know, just with a regular brain, you know, not having. Getting blown up. And, you know, so many of us have been blown up, you know, I'm not the only one, you know, kind of guy. But during those same times, you know what I mean? We're coming back sometimes within 24 hours of doing an op, you know, 48, you know, I mean, all the time kind of deal as far as coming back and then. And then, like, going to take the kids to school, you know what I mean? After, like 48, like, just killing kids, dad in front of him, you know, kind of deal. So it's like, okay, and now I'm doing this. It was like, so trippy. That's why my hat's off to law enforcement, you know, they do it daily sometimes. But back to me, it's like. And then I would be in the kids world.

And this was one of the things, man, that was just always. So I go back to the humanity aspect of it where I didn't. I didn't ever lose my humanity, but it was kind of like it was being obscured, like covered up a bit to enable me to continue on, almost as a survival skill, because my. My true humanity, we would be exposed whenever, like, I go to my kids elementary school, you know what I mean? And there's all these eight, nine year olds, right, just angels, you know, and, uh. And then they would start, like, singing my country tis of thee, you know, meaning that kid voice. I would start fucking coming apart and I'm just sitting there. Because that's what, you know, I mean, they, these. That's humanity, right? Like, that is the essence. Our children, you know, of everything that is beautiful and wonderful in life and my own, even, you know, blood in that. And it's like. But I'm the, you know what I mean? I'm not healing that. You know what I mean? I'm not addressing that side of it because I have to keep on going because I can't be having that kind of stuff doing what I'm doing.

That, for me, at that time, it didn't no longer coexist because of the accumulation of all the different things, you know?

Yeah.

But that's whenever it would also be, even though it'd be crushing to me, it also gave me a little bit of relief of, like, okay, I'm still. That part of me is still me, you know? I'm not a robot. I'm not emotionless. I'm not a monster, you know, kind of deal. Yeah. So it was. There was a lot going on during those times, and I had to process a lot of it, and then it all got backed up, and that was what led me to end up getting out was.

Before we do that.

Yeah.

Before we get to you getting out, I'd like to. I know this is a tough ask, but a lot of guys struggle with this.

Okay.

And so it's something that I like to bring up, because at least half this audience is coming are gwaut vets who've experienced loss. And I know we've talked about your experience with american loss, but what about. What about a brother?

Yeah. Yeah. I've experienced a teammate loss.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you experienced that?

Not on my team.

Good for you.

Now, but on a. You know, in the troop, though. You know what I mean? And really, really good friends. Best of friends that weren't. I didn't. They didn't die with me, but I mean. I mean, like, in the moment right then and there, but. But I have lost them. You know?

How do you deal with that?

How I deal with that is, like, honoring them. Yeah. And I think the better way of demonstrating not so much is because then the next question will be, how do you honor. I think the next question should be, or the next thing to talk about is how we dishonor them, because that's the easier one. So I dishonor. I honor them. I honor the dead by the life I live now, or I dishonor them. And how I dishonor them. I mean, dude, like, getting pissed drunk and slobbering and crying and, like, oh, my God, I miss you so much. Like, is that honoring them? Like, if you. You know what I mean? Me and you and best friends. I died, you know, I mean, for you, in place of you, or I just died, and we're teammates, and you didn't. You know, I mean, let's say that I did. Maybe I even saved you or something. You know what I mean? And now. Now that gift that you've been given, you're gonna just like, bro, that's the best you can do with, like, the gift I gave you?

I'm glad you're saying that.

Yeah, bro. Because it's bullshit, man.

And I live life to the fullest, like they would want you to live.

That's our responsibility, man. Anything other than that, and I have failed at it miserably, let me tell you that. I'm not. Again, I don't. I got all the t shirts, keychains. I don't judge any other, man, but I judge what is. What is a fact. And it is a fact if I am not living my life to the best. I mean, to the best of my ability because of their sacrifice, that shit's on me. Of being a shitty, dishonoring teammate. That is how. That is my judgment of me, not of you, but that is my judgment, man, because, like, all that they did for us, like, I go back to, like, what we started this with, man. Me riding on the shoulders of giants, man, all of that stuff that all those guys did, and I'm given this gift of doing better. There was a time when I was ignorant and I couldn't do better. I was just a dumbass, you know? But now I have an option, and I'm. And I'm choosing to stay in this bullshit, self pity, dishonoring thing. Yeah, fuck that. That's what I say to that thing. And it's totally dishonoring if that's what you choose to continue to do, and I'll be happy to fight over it, you know?

I mean, where it's like. Because our job, man, is to honor them, tell their stories, like, talk about them, like, but it's painful for us. Like, we don't want to, like, I'll talk about this and that, but I don't want to, like, I talk about that. That's what we need to talk about, man. You know, I mean, that was what we need to celebrate. That's what we need, you know, I mean, that's what it's all about. But it's so hard, you know what I mean? It's super hard to do, man. But I live my life and fail at it miserably on times to honor the sacrifices they made, man, without being a, you know, enthusiastically, you know what I mean? Joyfully. I mean, I get sad as shit, you know what I mean? Like, we've all experienced, like, a lot of. I'm actually sad a lot of the times, you know what I mean? It's like. Cause there's a lot of shit to be sad about, you know? But I'm also super happy, you know what I mean? I'm also living a good life because I don't, you know what I mean? Like, I'm. We're all.

We're going to see them again. I mean, my belief system is I'm going to see those guys again, and they're going to be like, hey, motherfucker. Yeah. It's going to be aar time in the team room. It's going to be in the team room with the door locked, and now we're going to have an Aaron on what Tom did and didn't do. I know that, man. Like, I know they're waiting, you know? And, I mean, that's just my belief system, man. So I don't want to. I don't want to fucking deal with them, man, like, you know, saying. Because they're going to. I don't want to have them hand me my ass.

Yeah.

I mean, they can handle me screwing up at times and you know what I mean? In that piece, man. But I don't want to dishonor them, man. I want to dishonor my current family. It's hard, bro.

Man, I'll tell you, I don't know a lot of guys that came through that don't need any help. In fact, I don't know any.

Yeah, man. It's in some of these. Well, no, I mean, yes, I have seen guys that have, like. That are doing. In my opinion, they're doing really well. Guys that. I mean, they're. But they're, like, oddities. You know what I mean? Like, they're the, you know, just the freak shows, and they're just great humans, and they process, all right. And from my knowing, they're doing right, but they're, like, a super, super 0.0%, you know? But, yeah, but most people just. Even. Just in life in general, man. You know what I mean? Like, look how hard life is, just regular. And now you talk about. We always joke about. It's like we live. We've lived dog lives. You know what I mean? Like, because one deployment is, like, three years, a minimum of three years of a regular human being's life.

Yeah.

I mean, most people just lose a significant other a few times in their life.

Yeah.

Like, we would do it maybe twice in one deployment. I mean, like, someone that we truly loved.

Yeah.

I mean, so you can't stack up that much life experience, because I don't like even calling it trauma. Like, it's war, man. Like, we go to war. War is fucking horrible. You know what I mean? But that's what it is. And we would just help. It helps us categorize it by saying traumatic because it is trauma on the brain and emotions and that kind of stuff. But that's what the show is, man. Like, there's no war without that stuff. And to think that we can get through it or to think that I can get through it without needing assistance, you know, man, I did it to learn how to shoot the pistol at 25 meters. You know what I mean? I didn't learn that on my own. I had an instructor. I didn't do physical therapy on my own. When I had shoulder surgery, I had a physical therapist, you know? So now my emotions are out of whack. I'm not gonna go see my teammate.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna go see someone or do something in a different vein. But I do. As you can tell, I get fired up, man, when I hear guys whining about, you know, loss and suicide and they're not doing a fucking thing about it, you know, me. Except talking.

Yeah.

They just. Just talking about how awful it is and how we need to do something about it. I mean, there's a. There's a good group of dudes that is. You know what I mean? But the majority, they'll talk about it and they'll share to where it costs them.

There's so many. It's like, when I asked that question to you at the beginning, how do you get ahead of PTSD? What would your advice be? You know? And I know I get fired up about it, too, because this isn't 2006 when you got out and nobody was talking about this and nobody knew how to deal with it, and you didn't have anybody to talk to because. Yeah, because everybody's still in it, you know? And now there's just. I think that. Man, I fucking hate saying this, but I think that. I think that there is a portion of the veteran community that has really embraced becoming a victim.

Yeah.

And now there's just not a. There's not a valid excuse anymore.

Yeah, no.

Just like we had said at the very beginning, there's so many, even just on this show, you know, there are so many different avenues that you can go find what fits for you. And there's example after example after example of. Of warfighter.

Yeah.

Warfighters who have been on the show, who have done all these different. All started things, been through things. You know, there must be at least a dozen different avenues of ways to a good start.

Yeah.

You know, pick one to get trained to fucking go with it.

Yeah.

You know, and there's no more. There's no there's just no excuse anymore.

No.

You know, for.

His choice, choosing that. Choosing to be. Like you said, it's not available. Okay?

Hey, happiness is a choice.

Yeah, man.

Better is a choice.

It is.

No.

And nobody owes you a fucking thing, man.

Yeah.

Like, I did this for my country, Rose. A volunteer army.

Yeah.

Volunteer military. No, I didn't get drafted. Yeah. Now I believe in the workman's comp aspect of it. You know what I mean? As far as injuries that I got, like, okay on that piece. But I mean, like, hey, like, like American owe me for what I did. Like, no, man, I bought, like, no one owes me anything. Like that entitlement mentality. Like, hey, yeah, the US government owes you something because you were government equipment that got damaged and now, like, okay, they need to compensate that piece of what's damaged not for what's made up, but what's. For what's actually damaged. But then other than that, man, it's like, what are you doing? Yeah, like, like, get to work. Like, because this total victim mentality and that entitlement, because I see it all the time and it's actually an entitlement mentality is a victim mentality. Yeah, like, he's like, you owe me something. You know, because of what I, what I did, you know, miss condition.

That's a great point. That's a great point.

Yeah, man. Because I just look at that whole, like, having not taken responsibility for your own self, you know, meaning what you have done in your life and what you're, you know, where you're at and where you're going, you're being a victim. Well, I had all these traumas going, like, okay, but there's all these avenues of seeking help that most of them will be for free. If you look hard enough, somebody is going to pay that ship. You don't have any money and for real don't have any. Not just money that you don't want to spend, you know, because that's in this population is a lot too. It's like, again, because they think they owe something. But I mean, that victim mentality, you can never get better. Yeah, because it. Because if you're my problem, I'm screwed because I'll have a problem anytime you want me to have one. But if I'm the problem now, I can do something. You know me, because that's complete ownership. I'm at choice. Like, yeah, all these things happen to me and yeah, that sucked. And yeah, I struggled greatly for it now, like, on the tvi side and this is what I'm doing about it.

Because if you ask me, hey, would I change anything? I say, hell no. You know, just that accountability, that respond. I mean, the better word is responsibility of me taking responsibility for myself. And it's hard, you know. I mean, a lot of us aren't trained. I wasn't trained to do that. I've had all these teachers throughout. Throughout my life, you know what I mean? Especially post, you know, post military, you know what I mean?

I had a guy on here the other day. There are 70. 70 over 70 nonprofits designed just to help special ops guys.

Oh, yeah, that's.

That's 70 different avenues that you can go to for free, you know? I think, you know, I wish they had more for the conventional guys.

See, and that's where my heart always goes to. I mean, I love my spec op guys, you know what I mean, that stuff. But we got a lot of. We got it good, you know what I mean? Who my big concern is the conventional guys and the cops, you know what I mean? The people that don't have those avenues.

That's one of the things I love about warriors, art, is what you're doing, what you and your partner had started. I'm sorry. His name escapes me now, but it's for everybody.

Josh. Oh, yeah, man.

Correct.

Yeah, that is absolutely correct.

That was actually one of my patron's questions, too, is where can conventional guys go and get help? Because there is a bunch for them, you know? And I mean, you know, as tough as those stories, those. Not stories, as tough as those experiences were for you to articulate, you know, with the mass casualty events, those are conventional guys.

Oh, my God.

And all these people are starting these nonprofits, and they're all for spec operators.

Sexy spec op guys.

And it sucks, man. It fucking sucks. Because it was. It was grunt Marines that took the brute, you know, the front of Fallujah.

Oh, yeah.

And. And there's just not that much out there for a man.

Yeah. That's what my heart. I mean, my only combat patch that I wear is my 82nd patch, because that's. I mean, that's how I was raised. Don't forget where you come from, boy. You know? Like, yeah, man, but it's wild when we kind of switched up a little bit. But as hard as all those things were in the military and all of that stuff, you know, experiencing those events, transitioning out of the military and dealing with those events was ten times harder. I didn't have a gray hair, for one, when I was in the military doing all that stuff. I get out, you don't have to get a job and learn all this other stuff and all these healing modalities and cognitive therapy and vestibular therapy, I was like, fuck, it's kicking my ass. But it all worked.

So what was it that made you to separate from the unit?

Yeah. So, number one, it was, uh, it was time. But again, back to me trusting in God, like I'm too hard headed, was kind of too screwed up, you know what I mean? I was leaning more toward what's better for the team than for the family. Not in a horrible way, but it was leaning that way, and I knew it and couldn't do anything about it. And my saving grace was my back. So I've broken my back in 2003. Surgery in 2004, re injured my back in 2007 significantly. And so I couldn't wear kit anymore without taking narcotics. And because I was sober, like, I'm not going to go down that road, you know what I mean? And so I physically couldn't wear kit without the headaches. The actual physical pain was more than I could tune out. It was seeping into my that so physically, I couldn't wear kit anymore. If I couldn't wear kid anymore, then I wasn't going to do the job anymore because the only reason why I ever wanted to do the job was because of the kid. And so, I mean, a bigger man would have probably taken a support job and, you know, and give back.

I was not that guy at that time. I was like, I can't. I successfully avoided.

It's almost humorous you say give back.

Yeah, but I was done. And the only when I wrote up the pros and cons for staying in because they. The cool thing was, is I still. I mean, I had a good reputation. They wanted me to do another year, team time, which not everybody, you know, everybody got two years if you didn't screw up. Not everybody got three. I got offered three, so that was really cool. But physically, I couldn't do it. And when I added up the positives and negatives, and I never cared about being a SAR major. I never cared about rank in higher position, man, I'm, I'm. I'm that dumbass private, you know, at heart. I mean, the greatest job I ever had in my life was to ICU on the teams, you know what I mean? Because you had to. That's my style of leadership is like being up front, you know, leading from the front. It's just what I've always been really good at. And those days were gone, and. Yeah, but I couldn't wear kit anymore, so I guess it's like, man, I'm getting out. It was super hard, though, because I'd planned on doing 30 years, and I was.

I was a super lifer. I was like, I am not leaving the army until they. They kick me out, you know? But then all the different things happened, and then once I decided, like, hey, I'm gonna get out. And it was a family decision, you know, because we weren't doing that great at the time. I mean, we're gonna get a divorce or separate it or anything, but I mean. I mean, when it's like, when you ask guys, what'd you do in your thirties? Like, all of our thirties, my mind and my wife, like, we were in and out of war, you know what I mean? The whole time, our children in and out of war, like, I didn't bring it. I'll make sure picture. If it's okay with my wife anyway, I'll make sure the picture gets up, man. If you look at the picture of my retirement ceremony, you know, me and my wife and kids, you just see how tired they are, man. They're just. I mean, they're all in, you know what I mean? Wasn't anything bad. Love me. You know, it was good, but it's just like, you see their eyes and they're just, like, fucking tired, man, just because that.

That tempo, you know what I mean? And then as kids, you know, if there's anyone that's people, like, talking about sacrifice and, man, I didn't sacrifice anything. I didn't. I volunteered for all of that, man. I volunteered for it. I didn't plan on the injuries, some of the injuries that I got. The sacrifice means that, you know what I mean? I have a. You know, I'm doing something I don't want to do. I'm sacrificing this. It wasn't. I traded my family time for the wartime based on my priorities and what I thought was right. You know what I mean? You know? So they sacrificed because they didn't want me to go.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So all the. It's the families that sacrifice. Unless a draft kicks up again, like, okay, then I'll buy that you've sacrificed because I chose to go to all those different things and do all the different things that I did. Like, for me, I have to stay in that mindset or I'll start feeling sorry for myself, you know? Cause I have bad days, you know? I mean, go through a lot of life is difficult, like we said at times, and I can't handle an ounce of self pity, you know, it creeps in enough as it is, you know? And, like, talking about sacrifice, like, I don't know, man. Yeah, yeah. So I know I got off on that little tangent, but. But that's what the choices of getting out was. That's just kind of everything I kind of, like, lined up and, man, it was time, right? Because when I first came in, I told you about the Vietnam vets. So you had the ones that were helping me out, but then you had the other Vietnam vets that would be like, army's gone to shit. You know what I mean?

There's a bunch of pussies running, you know what I mean? They were just like, you know, they hated everybody and everything, you know, and it's like. And new recruits, you know, it's like, you're going to hate it. It's going to be the worst, you know what I mean? And I was like, meanwhile, we're like, this is the best thing ever. Well, they left. We became what we became, you know? So I started becoming that guy. So thank God I realized it myself. But, you know, everybody was fucked up. You're all fucked up. That's stupid plan. We did that in zero five. We tried that in zero eight. In nine. That sucked. This is stupid. You're fucking idiot. And I was like, oh, my God, man. Like, I'm that guy now. I was like. And I came to the conclusion, man, is that it was just time to go. It was like, hey, man, it was a good run. So I made the decision. They ended up med boarding me, you know, me, and starting that process, which is a whole other thing. But the next kind of thing that came up is I had never missed a deployment.

You had three major surgeries, back surgery, leg surgery, shoulder surgery in between deployments. I never missed a deployment with my team, ever. In my back surgery was a six month rehab, but I finished up my rehab and went on the next deployment because I was just dumb. But, uh. But the team, you know, was everything. And. And I was wondering, it's like, man, how am I gonna deal with, like, they're getting on the plane and head to Afghanistan? I'm not. Up until that moment, anytime they had gotten on the plane and headed anywhere, I was with them. And so I was like, what's it going to be like in a man? And two, you know? Because, again, solid decision making, a lot of prayer, a lot of discussion with mentors and people that I trusted. This is the right thing to do, man. Whether you like it or not. This is the writing on the wall. This is what you need to do. So I pulled the trigger. Started that when those guys deployed, you know, beginning of eleven. Said prayers for him, sent him off. And I was okay. You know what I mean?

And I was like. Part of me was like, super relieved. Cause I was so worried that inside of me was like, I should fucking be with him. You know what I mean? But it was. I had gotten enough, man. You know, I didn't get all I wanted, but I got all I could stand, you know what I mean? Between physical injuries, brain injuries, what do you think?

You didn't get that you wanted, man.

I will never not want to kill bad guys and blow shit up.

Yeah.

Right now I want to do that. You know what I'm saying? So it's not what I.

That's the way I articulate it, too. You know, it's never. It's like.

It's choice.

It's like money.

Yeah.

It's never enough.

Yeah, man.

You know what I mean? It's just. It's. It's. It becomes like a greedy.

Yeah, man. I just. I finally realized. I realized one day I still had more years in. It was like. I thought maybe it would run out of me. Like, I'm going through a phase. Like eventually this. This will run out. I'll kind of get tired of this, you know what I mean? And it kept going, kept going. And I was like, okay, so I'm not gonna run out of it. It's just a choice. I'm choosing to do this. And if I choose to do it longer, I'm choosing to do it longer, but I'm not gonna. But it's not gonna go away. I mean, any war. American warrior that doesn't want to kill bad guys and blow shit up is not an american warrior. There's something other. Might be something, but they're not that.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, so all of that lined up, man. And it was time to get out. And that's when we really found out what was the matter with me, you know? Cause I had one of my best friends throughout the whole time. I would tell him about everything that was going on. Like, 100%, how I was thinking, how I was feeling, you know? I mean, he was. He was also in recovery. You know what I mean? He was sober guy. He was working for another special mission unit in Virginia in zero five. He got clipped in the head with an AK at close range. So he had been through all the TBI stuff, whenever there wasn't really any TBI stuff, stuff like zero five, you know what I mean? So he was like, way ahead of like, he's like, bro, you're fucked up, man. I'm like, really? You know, because I'm thinking, like, I'm kind of keeping it together. Like, it's a little rough. But, you know, I was like, everybody I know is like me, you know? And they're like, yeah, man, well, you're all screwed up, you know? And I was like. And he's like, hey, man, look, just take the test.

Like, he gave me the test to take, you know, for the TBI piece that are definitive, you know? And so what motivated me to get help, you know, when I was getting number one, I didn't care anymore, you know? You know how on the PTSD scale you never answer on the far right? You know what I mean? But now it was like, I didn't care because I don't. My job doesn't depend on care about a secret clearance. I'm not going into con. I mean, if I was going to stay in the game, I'd have stayed in the unit. You know, my wartime was over and done, over. I wasn't going to contract. I wasn't. I mean, it's an old broke dude, had a shit ton of fucking, you know, hell of a run, you know what I mean? Like, that phase was over, so. So I wasn't going to do any of that stuff. So I was getting all. I wasn't afraid of losing a clearance, you know what I mean? So I told him what I was. What was going on, but the testing. So what got me to the testing was, is that he had been almost fucking blew my own head off with all the support.

So I was the guy that was most set up for success. If you were going to bet on a guy that was going to be able to transition and make it out and be super successful, you would have been me. If you based it off of the support, like, okay, he's sober, you know what I mean? Doesn't have the chemical dependency to mess with. He's got a God in his life. He has a support group. He has an incredible loving wife. He has incredible loving families, brother, sister, you know what I mean? He's just got all of this support. He's been sober for this amount of time. He's processed this much trauma. Like, fuck, this guy's gonna. He's good to go, man. And it was all true. And with all that, I went through a military decision making process on why it might be a good idea to put a bullet in my brain, because my thinking wasn't right. So what was going on with me was all this noise was in my head before any, you know, any of the rehabilitation that I'd had. It was just me off a team now, and it was just all this noise and all these emotions and all this anger and everything going on.

I just needed to stop. And in my life, I'd always had enough tools to deal with me, you know, whether it was my sponsor, whether it was talking to spiritual advisor, whether it was prayer, whether it was working with others, whether it was helping out, you know, I mean, always has tools in the tool belt to turn this off. Well, I'd used every tool in the tool belt, and nothing would turn it off. And then I said to myself was like, well, I know what bullets do to brains. You know, I mean, that'll turn it off. So it wasn't like my family would be better off, and it wasn't a, like, oh, this is, you know, it wasn't like a horrible feeling moment or it was an actual decision making process. So that's what I was going down. Course of action one. Hey, how do the kids find me? How does this happen? Like, course of action two, like, I am, like, totally logically going through MDMP on why using this as a good idea. Then the grace of God amongst that piece, like, I realized what I was doing. I was like, holy shit, man.

Like, I'm actually thinking that this is an actual course of action, you know, mean, of doing that. And then I went and got help, you know, and all the. But the catalyst for that was another warrior, man, my best friend, my buddy Ryan, you know, my brother, who was always constantly in there on me and Ryan saying, bro, you got to get help. Got to get help. Got to get help. Got to get help. Got to get help, because we're not going to listen to anybody else. You know, I'm saying, that's just. I mean, the amount of arrogance that we have, you know what I mean? Like, we are only going to. You know what I mean? If you say you've done it, like, okay, you know what I mean? You're giving. Okay, somebody else. I don't care what they're saying if it's just how we're wired. So it takes us to do that. You know, it takes a warrior to get a warrior's attention, and then it takes a warrior to heal a warrior, also. And so I took all the tests they're definitive. Like, 8 hours of testing with a clinician, you know what I mean?

Verbal memory puzzles. That was an interesting game, too, man, because I would get so furious again because I was having those huge swings, and I couldn't figure out how to do a puzzle, dude. I had so many symptoms. Like I would get lost driving to and from work. I'd have to put it in a gps, same route for ten years, you know what I mean? I would get lost out of all those big mood swings. Like, I wouldn't know where I was. I mean, it was a mess. And I knew that I was losing my mind again, because before I got sober, remember, I was almost losing my mind? And now I knew I was going crazy. And you can't fix crazy. I know that. And so I was really concerned. So I took all those tests, got the results back, met with the neuropsych, sat down with the neuropsych, and he's like, hey, Tom, I'm reading the results. These results are definitive. The tests are set up to prove if someone's faking it, you know, it's bulletproof, man. You know what I mean? On what these results are. And he said, we don't have your solid iq as a baseline.

We just have your, you know, your general iq, which we know our iqs are usually much higher than that. And so based off that baseline, he's like, yeah, so cognitively, you are operating 50% processing speed. Cognitively, yeah. And then 50% verbal memory. Your brain, the pipe, those parts of your brains are working at that capacity.

Shit.

And he said that? And I felt the biggest relief, right? And that doesn't make sense. It does, and this is why it makes sense. So I, like, visibly relax, right? So the doc, he's looking at me, super great man, you know, and a great doc. He's a solid man, too, you know? And he looks at me and he's like, hey, Tom. And he's wondering if I'm having a cognitive moment, right? And he's like, I need to know that you understand. You know what? What I just told you because you did not have the reaction that I thought you would have. And I was like. I was like, hey, doc. Yeah. Like, no, cognitively, I completely understand. You know, I have brain damage, and that's bad. 50% processing speed, 50% verbal memory. I said, the reason why I'm relieved, though, is you just told me I was injured and that I wasn't crazy, you know, because I can work with injury, you know, I mean, I understand I've really understood amount of physical therapy and everything therapy. I understand that the crazy you can't fix, you know? And so you just told me I wasn't crazy.

So I was super relieved. And then I'm like, okay, now I have an injury. We attack it like all my other injuries, you know, what's the healing modalities? What's all that? So once we had all that, and then, you know, at the unit, you know, they did the best that they could, you know, I mean, again, it was full up. War was going on, you know, it's 20 1011 time frame, you know, I mean, they were. They're full tilt, just as they were in zero five, you know what I mean? Like that machine, he's rolling. So there wasn't a lot of things in place now, you know, as far as to help out or anything like that. And so whenever it came to help, it was basically I needed to get it on my own, you know, because once they found out, because I told them, I was like, hey, something's wrong with my head. And they're like, well, you're getting older, and maybe this or maybe that. And I was like, no, you need to test. Maybe we got the test, then they seen the results, and they're like, holy shit. Like, no jumping, no shooting.

No, I mean, it was bad, you know, and you know, that brain injury is not. Is nonlinear, you know, you know, it's bad. And then it goes to there, and then, you know, it's all over the place. So that. No, no, nothing. And so. And then I was like, okay, now I got to start getting all the therapies, you know, so then it was cognitive therapy. So here's, like, another thing we talked about. God. And, like, we talked about this morning, like, knowing that I'm on path, right? So everything that I'm doing from this moment forward goes against the culture of where I come from at that time. You know, I mean, quiet professionals, you don't say nothing, that kind of thing. So, I was dying, right? Even though I'm sober, like, cognitively, vestibularly, like. Like, man, I'm still. I'm not dying, right. But I'm still not recovering yet.

Yeah.

So I know how to recover. How do you recover? You talk about it, you know, I mean, whisrinx, whatever. You get help. Go get help, you know, I mean, now I don't have to worry about losing my job or anything like that. Like, I'm full tilt getting help, so. But I'm not getting any support again. I don't blame the unit for that, because they were focused on war, and that's where they needed to be focused. We didn't. They didn't have the manpower at the time to focus on folks that were in my situation at the time. And so I'm like, okay. Plus, I'd have done it on my own anyway. I was super angry. Like all those modes swings. I had to get out of the army early. I had all kinds of unprocessed trauma. I had untreated TBI. I was not a joy to be around, you know what I mean? So they were okay with me not being around, you know, and not because they didn't like me, but it was kind of like, bro, you're a little, you little a lot, you know? So I walk into the TBI clinic there at Womack, and I'm like, yeah, needed appointment.

I got this big beard, you know, me, fucking crazy guy eyes. And we'll look at a picture of, like, what I looked like in 2009 and have that look, you know what I mean? Like the look, the wartime warfighter look. And it's real. So I go in there and like, yeah, I need an appointment. They're like, well, you know, so I get an appointment. So it's like, here's this PTSd thing to fill out, right? And I'm like, okay, you really want to know again now? Here we go. So I write it all down and then turn it into them, and I'm like, well, this ought to be kind of interesting because they're already terrified anyway of us, you know, to our types. And, um. And now I just turned in that basically I'm almost fucking crazy, you know what I mean? Like, I got a lot going on. So next thing you know, these two ladies come out of the background, you know, and like, hey, Matt Sarrant, you know, how you doing? You know, I'm like, hey, I'm okay. Like, y'all want me to tell the truth? Like I'm telling the truth, you know what I mean?

But I'm okay. I mean, I'm not okay, but, like, I'm not gonna freak out and, like, start doing stuff, and they're like, okay, you know? And so we went in the back, and then we started talking, you know? And so then I get a cognitive therapist, vestibular therapist. Psychologists go to met. I mean, just this whole regime, I end up on a three month not inpatient because I'm going at home at night. But my whole days, man, are filled with all of this rehab, and it's brutal, man. Total ass whipping. I'd go fall asleep in the truck, you know, in the parking lot before I'd head home just to get sleep. And, um. But I still, man, the part of me thinks I'm so wrong for doing what I'm doing because I'm, like, coming from where I came from unit wise. Like, everything is really in house, you know, but I'm going to survive, you know, that's the decision, the choice that I make, you know? And if that's at odds of where I come from and the people who I come from, well, I don't fucking care, because I have a new loyalty chain now.

Now my family actually does come first. Now my family actually is my team for the first time ever. You know what I mean? So my job is to be able to support my team, which I was in a deficit, so I had a lot of fucking work to do, you know? So there was a lot of guys, even at the time, because I was very vocal about what I was going through because that's how I survived, you know what I mean? You talk about it, and 50% of the guys were all about it, you know what I mean? Because a lot of them were having the same kind of struggles, you know what I mean? Even if they didn't say it overtly that we talked about it in closed session, you know, it made them feel better knowing, like, yeah, bro, there's a lot of guys suffering, you know? So 50% of them, I'm just using rough numbers, thought it was cool. And then the other 50% would be like, yeah, he needs shut the fuck up. You know? But they wouldn't say that to my face. Yeah, you know what I mean? Because back to the rules.

I'm not a hippie, you know what I mean? Like, we can fight, you know what I mean? And they knew that. And so anyway, I had to do, again, back to I do what I do. Cause that's what I say I'm gonna do.

When did warriors heart come in?

Yeah, so the thing about all those therapies and shit, it all works, man. I actually started getting better and started being able to enjoy my life. Still had a lot of.

When did your wife start to notice?

So she started noticing immediately because she knows me so well, you know what I mean? She knew I was still struggling a lot. And we talked about different struggles, not in detail, but that was just our comms plan that we had together, you know what I mean? She knew I was working on it. I communicated that I was, you know, and so we started getting better and I started being able to be an actual dad, like taking kids to school and being a football coach and stuff, but then also started working. I wanted to stay in the tactical realm just because I needed to for a while, because I needed to be around that community of people, you know, and provide a good product. But I knew it wasn't where I wanted to be. I just didn't know where I wanted to be was next. But in that tactical world and for the cool thing ever, you know, with my brother and I, he got out a few years before I did and I was out. So we actually started working together, like actually together. And we had a rough start with this company that we worked for.

We should have knew it went bad, um, cuz, cuz who was running it, but it. It's okay. And uh, so anyway, we start working together and uh, we start doing all the tactical stuff and uh, we start doing some kind of. We call them fun and guns, but it's these, uh, with civilians, you know, mixing military stuff, not military tactics or techniques, but basic fundamentals of marksmanship, CQB, that kind of stuff. So it was a different audience and then, um, different things that I'd learned about at that time was. Is about healing, you know, and a big piece of that was that how do warriors heal? You know, and because warrior to warrior, you know, is just. Is relief, like so, but it's not healing. The only true healing comes from the community in which the warrior served, right? Because we assume the burden, we went to war and forever, forever changed, right? So that burden that we have is supposed to be shared with our community for who we went and fought for. But it's not because of the divide, you know, of the community only 1% serves, you know, it's not a blame game.

It's just very big divide. But me and my brother started practicing closing that distance and we started doing that. And this ties into warriors heart big time, is what we did, is that this guy named Edward Tick, and war in the soul is the name of his book. I got all this information. This TTP, basically, of right, is how the warrior heals, is the warrior gets with the trusted agents in the community and tells a story and it transfers some of that experience onto them. That's the super shortest rough version. I can do it.

What is the program?

So warriors heart is a minimum 42 day inpatient treatment program. Primary diagnosis is chemical dependency. So alcohol and drugs with secondary. In the. In the Alphabet soup, you know, PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, moral grief and injury. All the other stuff that goes along with the job description, but it's primary of that. So it's what makes it different, what makes wars heart different about other different rehabs is because it's the warriors way. Like, I think I can speak for most veterans, like, environment matters, you know, where we heal. Like, we don't heal in hospitals unless I'm getting a surgery, you know what I mean? If I need a sterile environment and, well, I need to be in a hospital, but if I need to heal mind, body, and spirit, and it's not sterile, then a sterile environment is not a productive environment for me. And so it was an old Conoco oil executive retreat. So it's a resort. 543 acre ranch that is the opposite of a hospital. Selling the people that can come to it is with the warrior population, and that's for those that face life and death on a daily basis as a profession.

So we have active duty clients, we have veterans, we have law enforcement, we have first responders, you know, and anybody that meets that description, you know, I.

Want to jump in and say something. You know, is. This is one thing I love is this is not a nonprofit. Yeah, you had mentioned that this takes tricare, this takes insurance. This takes all kinds of other things. Regular payment.

Yep.

You know, and. And the other thing that I love is what you just mentioned. But I want to reiterate, is this is for everyone. Correct. This is for special ops. This is. This is for conventional. This is for first responders, firefighters, everybody. Everybody who experiences traumatic events.

Yeah, man.

Is welcome.

Absolutely. And that's why it sounds cliche. It's not. But it's like, from 911 to a 911 call. You know what I mean? Those are our people.

Yeah.

When your family's in need. My family's in need. Like, these are the ones that. That we call and they come and save us. Like, so now they need save. I don't like using the word safe. They need assistance. You know who's helping them out?

In over 3000 people have been through this treatment program.

Yeah. Yep. Over 3000.

How many? Do you know the success rate?

Yeah. And there's always percentages so I can give some of them is. So the success rate. We have a 90% success rate in completion of the course because we. This is training. It's a training course. You get cleaned up, you get trained up. You know, I mean, you need to learn how to be trained, how to live without self medicating with drug and alcohol and handle your emotions and behave appropriately. So it's a training course. So we have a 90% completion rate on a 42 day course. So the industry standard on a 28 day course is like 50%. So we're already winning. You know what I mean in that. And the big reason of that, Min, is it truly is warriors, healing warriors. Like, you don't have to talk about. That's why we kept it, this population only. You don't have to talk about mentorship or leadership. You see someone suffering, you go and help them. If she's the new guy, you come and help them. So all that naturally occurs, you know, and so that all happens. Then whenever it comes to, we're probably at about a 60% rate as far as folks that leave and stay sober, but it's normally 20 to 30.

Wow.

And that's on a. And that's. But that's included. It always, like, just throwing in. That's including the guys that's one day sober who may not make it to five, but that's also. They're including the guy that's eight years. So, you know, so it's a big spread in there. So it's kind of the success rate, you know, is. And some guys relapse a few times before they get it right, you know what I mean? On that team, some of them, it's like any hard military course. Some people come and make it. Hey, they were meant for it. Make it straight through. They're good to go. Happily ever after. Some people get recycled, you know what I mean? Need some retraining and then make it through. Some people just didn't know what they were getting into, and they're not ready yet, you know? So that's, if you look at it as a training course, same way as any hard military school. That's how it is, man. So that camaraderie and that peer network is built immediately. That's the first thing that makes it different than anything else, because they've missed it. They're isolated. They've gone, you know, me.

They're away from the tribe, man. So they come back. And so part of the thing is that the first thing that they hear whenever they get out there, to us, is welcome home. So a lot of people are cliche with that, and to some people, it is. But for those who know, you know, it means everything, you know? So that's the thing about warriors. Heart is where is where the lost find their way. Home is where they're broken, find their power, and it's where the forgotten are remembered forever, you know? So when they roll into that environment. It's different, man. You know what I mean? It's obviously we have a lot of what I call, and I don't say this negatively, it's because I'm one of them of educated consumers. Like they've tried different rehabs and different heat heating modalities, treating modalities. So, you know, that's why I always say I'm going to tell you how great and how awesome and all this kind of stuff, but always ask an end user, right. Your reviews, you know, and all of that and yeah, man, it's. But it's the peer network and the difference is, is that.

I mean, we're one person, man. I can't go to this rehab to work on my chemical dependency in this rehab to work on my pts like one of them feeds the other, you know? Do I drink because of all the pts or because of all the pts? I drink like chicken or the egg. Who gives a shit? Like.

So this is a.

We got a hindu man. So they get totally industry standards, so industry standards. You get one clinician one time a week, one on one. Warriors are they get two, two times a week, one on ones and two small caseload groups. And that's with a trauma counselor and a licensed chemical dependency counselor. These are licensed professionals. Not hitting on any folks that are helping peer support, but these are licensed professionals and obviously they have to be badass to hear our kinds of stories, you know what I mean? On the regular, every day, multiple times a day. So we've got that piece going on, man, because we're healing both of them at the same time because you have to. You can't address the trauma without, you know, one or the other, man. It's on that ranch, man. And we do modalities like, hey, we're governed by the state licensing of doing different rehab 101 stuff, man. But we have a metal shop, a wood shop, art shop, we have fishing lakes, we have yoga, nature hikes, all the different things because we have to have an outlet. I don't want to talk about my fucking feelings anymore.

You don't mean. I don't want to, you know, I just need to break, man, because 42 days and when we work them, man, from zero seven in the morning to 2030 at night, they are occupied earning their way. It's not a get along and get by. If you're not going with the program, you'll be administratively discharged. I mean it's. But it's our population. Like we understand those kind of things. You know, like make me work for it. So it's. So it's meaningful, so it means something. Hold me accountable or I'm gonna. I can't stop screwing up, you know, nobody goes to rehab on an upswing. You know, saying it's.

How do people find it, man?

The easiest way, I think, is warriorsheart.com.

We'Ll link it in the description. Yeah. Well, tom, we're wrapping up and, man, thank you.

My pleasure. You're welcome.

Thank you for coming out, and it's just amazing what you're doing, and it's an honor to have you here. And I'm glad we finally met.

Yeah, me too, man. Thank you, too.

And thank you for being an example. You know, it's. You've impacted a lot of people, man, and you just thank you and continue to keep doing that. I mean, it's incredible. So it's been my honor. Today's show is sponsored by helixsleep.com. dot sleep, especially as you get older, is so critical. Especially that deep, comforting sleep. Go to helixsleep.com and take the sleep quiz. I took it and was matched with the midnight luxe. Helix knows that everyone's unique, so they have several different mattress models to match based on your body type and sleep preferences. Once you match, your mattress comes right to your front door, shipped for free. When you receive your helix mattress, you'll be hooked. It's so easy to unbox and you won't believe how well you sleep. You'll wake up feeling rested and refreshed. Helix mattresses are fiberglass free and cradle your body for essential support in every sleeping position. They have a ten year warranty, and Helix even has financing options and flexible payment plans. So a great night's sleep is never far away. Helix is offering up to 30% off all mattress orders and two free pillows. For our listeners. Go to helixsleep.com srs.

That's helix sleep.com srs. This is their best offer yet. That's not going to last long with Helix. Better sleep starts now. No matter where you're watching Sean Ryan show from, if you get anything out of this, please, like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, please leave us a review on Apple and Spotify podcasts. Today's show is sponsored by helixsleep.com dot sleep, especially as you get older, is so critical. Especially that deep, comforting sleep. Go to helixsleep.com and take the sleep quiz. I took it and was matched with the midnight luxe. Helix knows that everyone's unique, so they have several different mattress models to match based on your body type and sleep preferences. Once you match, your mattress comes right to your front door, shipped for free. When you receive your helix mattress, you'll be hooked. It's so easy to unbox, and you won't believe how well you sleep. You'll wake up feeling rested and refreshed. Helix mattresses are fiberglass free and cradle your body for essential support in every sleeping position. They have a ten year warranty, and Helix even has financing options and flexible payment plans, so a great night's sleep is never far away.

Helix is offering up to 30% off all mattress orders and two free pillows. For our listeners. Go to helixsleep.com srs. That's helixsleep.com srs. This is their best offer yet, and it's not going to last long. With helix. Better sleep starts now.