Just been having a chat to the Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, or should I say, would be a conservative leader?

Well, we'll have to see. I haven't made any decision. Yes, you have. No, I genuinely have not. We don't know what the process is. Colleagues have been talking to me about it. I'm considering what I may or may not do. You'll have to wait a little bit longer.

What's the percentage chance?

I don't know. Probably a reasonable chance, but let's see where we go. 60, 40? What do we say? Well, I can't pin a A precise number on it. You want to be the leader, don't you? Well, there's a lot of state. What I want is I want my party to recover. I have it on good authority that you're going to go to the problem. Because it's important for the country that we have a strong conservative party. We've just witnessed a terrible result, clearly, just as Labor did, in fact, in 2019, and yet came back in the period of five years. Now, if we unite as a party in Parliament, more broadly, and we get the right prospectus together, and we demonstrate that in opposition, we can be that steady, calm, reliable, conservative party that people are used to, then we can make real progress. That's what I want. Whoever it is that leads us-Under your stewardship. Whoever it is that leads us, I will want to be part of that process because I care about my party and I care greatly about my country.

Sweller Braveman says that you need to move closer towards reform.

We definitely need to appeal to people who have gone to reform, as we need to appeal to those who stayed at home and didn't come out and vote to us, as we need to appeal to those that we lost to both the Labor Party and the liberal Democrats. What we now need to go through is that process of identifying the right policy offer. But it's got to be backed up by demonstrating steady competence in opposition as a responsible opposition, not jumping on everything that the government does that could be arguably deemed to be wrong, but really picking our targets and showing that we can hold that government, this government, to account through time.

Are you one of those centrist cranks that Suella Braveman has been talking about?

I'm one of those people who believes that there is a policy offer that we can make to the British people that is both deliverable but also can be popular. I think these notions of left and right are rather misplaced in this particular discussion because I think there is a common ground which takes in perhaps some of the views of the right wing of the conservative Party, particularly around migration, the importance of getting on top of illegal migration, getting taxes lower. These are not just things that are the preserve of one particular wing of the conservative Party. They are things that the British people cares passionately about, but they also want an inclusive, broad church of a party. That shows compassion, that looks after the most vulnerable. When I was running DWP, one of the things that I was very firm about was that we should do just that, but we should do it in a way that was responsible to the taxpayer as well, that we should have expectations of people as well as being there to support them.

How long should Rishisunab hang on for?

Well, that is a matter for him. And what we don't know is what the party board-He used to get up with it, don't he? Well, what we don't know is what the party board is going to come forward with in terms of setting out the process for this leadership-When do you think-election. I suspect very soon. This week? I don't want to guess exactly when it will be, but it would certainly be within that time frame, I think.

Okay. Obviously, of course, it was Sky News what won it for you on election night.

It was. It was a very close result, Kay, and it was the Kay Burley vote that came out in drones and got me a heath of...

But it was also the GMB vote and the Today program vote.

Just to explain, because you were doing so many media around. Everybody knew who you were at the doorstep.

I did about a quarter of all the morning rounds, actually, during the general election for us, and people did. It did cut through, I think.

You won by 61 votes after a recount.

Yes.

I think the former Manchester United head coach would call that Squeeky Bum Time.

It was a little bit tense. I wouldn't inflict being at a count where it's that close on any body, actually. It's a very hairy moment because you're constantly looking at the piles of votes and trying to work out whether you're ahead or not. And of course, a different baller box will come in from a different town and put a different complexion on it all. Yeah, so it was a pretty hairy moment.

Because you were nearly 18,000 2000 up in 2019, and that got to '61. Why do you think that was?

I think we, firstly, lost our reputation for competent delivery in government. I think there were many things that we did competently deliver, but I think at the end of the day, The British people felt that that level of competence wasn't there. There was also an issue of trust, I think, that was lost as well. It will take time to rebuild those things, but the first base in all of this is to have a leader that is going to unite the parliamentary Party. Party. If we can unite, then I think we'll be unstoppable because there is a deep reservoir of talent and ideas, both within the parliamentary Party and the broader Party, including the membership, upon which we can draw to make sure that we have the right offer to the British people. Now, I know that that can be done. It's not going to be easy, but I'm absolutely confident that it can be done. I personally think I'm quite optimistic that we can actually turn this around in one cycle, that we can be backing government the next time around, just as the Labor Party did after that terrible defeat in 2019, the worst result for them since the 1930s.

I think Keir Starmer actually, apparently, considered his own position.

Yours was the worst ever. Before the coming election. But look at them now. The Labor Party came in, Kay, with less than 34% of the vote. That's the lowest vote share of any governing party in our political history.

Which side of the comments are they sitting on?

Of course, there are a very large number of them, but that can be unwound. A huge amount of tactical voting took about 55,000 votes to elect one conservative MP, about half that number, about 25,000. But that can change. That's democracy for you in the United Kingdom. That's how we do our polling. We've got plenty of time to do it, is we've got to unite us Party, get the right platform together, demonstrate that we can be- Sounds like a leadership speech to me.

Demonstrate, when you're asking me these questions, demonstrate that we can be that competent, level-headed, effective opposition.

If we can do that through time, and we have plenty of time. I think that we can come back into contention. But these are deep changes that are needed. This isn't just hanging around and waiting for this government to become unpopular because they will at certain points. We mustn't misinterpret that as having solved our problem. If you have a party that is... You'd have to be 65 years or older to be sure that somebody is more likely to vote conservative than for another party. That expresses a very, very deep challenge, which is broader than just saying we can-When are you going to declare? Well, as I've said, I haven't taken a decision at the moment, but I will be taking that decision relatively soon. This week? I do want to. Well, let's see what happens. Let's see what the party board comes forward with. Let's have a look at the process, and then I'll take my-Who's going to be your biggest threat? Take my mind a second. Well, I'm not going to get into the run of some riders, other than to make an important point, which is I think it's really important in this contest that we don't have any blue on blue.

So as a candidate, if I am a candidate, you will not have me on your program attacking other candidates or doing them down in any way. I think now is the time to demonstrate lively, positive, constructive debate within the party, finding a leader that can lead us back into contention politically, but to do it in a level-headed, calm, and sensible way. That's what the public will be looking for.

Just take you back, finally, to that count again. When they were going 23, were you at any stage thinking, that training as a tour guide might be coming in handy? Because I might have to be looking for another job.

I've done many things in my life, Kate. I should stress that. When I was a tour guide, it was as a hobby. Okay, so I didn't have a long career. Were you any good at it? Well, I had one dreadful incident, actually, where I took 53 Americans on a coach. We did the change of the guard at Buckingham Palace and various other things. I was told that rule number one is don't lose anybody. And by the first stop, I was about five down. By the second stop, I was about 10 down. But the miraculous thing, possibly because they were these co-getting Americans, by the last stop, they all found me again and we were all back together. It was a happy ending.

Let's see if you can unite the party as leader as well. We'll see. It's good to talk to you. Thanks very much indeed.