Well, joining us now to discuss this further is Sir Robert Buckland, the former Justice Secretary, now Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. Great to have you on the program. Thank you, Sophie. Today, firstly, do you agree with the UK government's decision to grant immunity to people who cooperate with the New Independent.

Commission looking at the troubles. Well, I'm speaking in a personal capacity. I did support the bill and I did work on the preliminary policy basis to deliver the bill when I was still in government. And there's no doubt that there had to be, I think, despite all the horror and the concern and the anguish that people feel, there had to be some movement here, not just because of prosecutions, but because of the large number of inquests that on a conservative estimate would take many, many years to work their way through. Now, that's not just an issue for the UK government, it's an issue for the Irish government as well. And I'm very concerned today that relations have got to a point where both governments are now in a pitch, and a standoff on an issue that they really need to be working closely together with on the basis that information needs to be shared with the victims of violence.

You're talking about the two governments. I'm interested in that. David touched on it when he was saying the last time this happened was all the way back in 1971. I mean, how bad are our relationships?

Well, look, that was all about actions taken by the British government about the way people were being interrogated. I mean, we were right in the heat of the troubles. We're in a very different world now. I think what I'd say is that I'd take your attention to the Stormwind House Agreement of 2014, which talked about dealing with legacy issues. There was an agreement that both governments would work together. It would be a collaborative approach. The committee that I now chair did produce some findings back in 2020 to encourage that collaborative approach. But just to zoom out- That doesn't seem to be happening.

Just to zoom out, the Irish government is taking the UK government to court. A lot of people would be like, What on Earth is going on? What has happened to pit these two governments against each other in this way?

Well, I think that there was a feeling clearly that the UK government had gone too far ahead of itself in terms of acting, unilaterally. I mean, I agree with your report. I think there is, I'm afraid, a little bit of domestic politics in all of this, and that's perhaps understandable. But at the end of it all, opening a legal action in Strasberg does not necessarily mean an end to the need to talk diplomatically. And I would urge both governments to do so rather than waiting for what I think would be a rather lengthy piece of litigation. The history of inter-state litigation in Strasberg is not a happy one. It tends to take many years and that just leads to more delay for victims and their families.

As you say, the Irish government have brought this under the ECHR, the European Convention on Human Rights, complying with the ECHR is obviously part of the Good Friday Agreement. Is it right for the ECHR to reply here?

Well, look, ECHR underpins the Good Friday Agreement in a way that is deeply profound and it's all related to historic and localized issues about trust in the integrity of the judicial process, to be frank. That's why it was underpinned in that way. And it's been echoed then by the 2014 Stormant House Agreement. Let's not forget, we've got domestic challenge to this bill from representatives of families in the Northern Ireland courts. And I think it might have been perhaps advisable for the Republic of Ireland to have waited that domestic challenge within Northern Ireland to happen before launching these inter-state proceedings.

We've obviously been talking a lot about the ECHR recently, feels like we're all experts in it after the Rwanda Bill, some of your colleagues want the UK to pull out of it entirely. They're worried, I guess, about the supremacy of the UK Parliament. Are they right? No.

British conservative lawyers wrote the convention back in the late 40s with very good reason. We have a proud conservative legacy of supporting the ECHR. And I think any responsible conservative government would want to uphold that legacy and show leadership in Europe at a time when Ukraine, a member of the Council of Europe, is under attack from a former member that has left. What an inappropriate time to even consider withdrawal from the convention. We should be, as Conservatives, absolutely standing up for it. It is a profoundly un-conservative thing to do to want to leave this particular institution. It's not a problem in terms of British law. The number of times we're found in breach of it as a country are negligible. I really think that this is the reddest of red herrings, and colleagues will be better off focusing on domestic law and the domestic policy that really underpins what's going on with the Rwanda issue.

There's one other thing I did want to talk to you about because we were speaking earlier on the program to your colleague or former colleague, I should say, Dominic Grieve, who was saying that he's frustrated, shall we say, at the state of the conservative Party. And that right now, he feels like he doesn't know who he could vote for the next election. He feels like he might even spoil his ballot. What would you say to him?

Well, I would say no. Dominic and I have both been in the trenches supporting our brand of One Nation Conservatism for many years. I know that's what he and I share with a passion. I still believe that it is worth defending, and I think particularly worth defending, against a Labor Party that at best is unready, I think, for government, and at worse, will probably be a considerably more left-wing Labor government than anything Tony Byrd and Gordon Brown ever offered. If you start to examine what it is that they want to do.

That's interesting. You said that it might be more left-wing Labor government. What about Rishie Sunak? Is he a one-nation conservative? I'm asking that actually quite genuinely. I feel like sometimes I struggle to.

Place him. Well, look, I think Rishie Sunak is somebody who wants to work within the norms. He clearly doesn't want the party to start breaching its legal obligations, either here or abroad. He's somebody who is driven, I think, by the right motivations in politics. He's a hard worker. He believes in, I think, all the moral norms that I would want a Prime Minister to believe in. I think he's a good conservative and the conservative party is a broad church, a wide coalition. I think he deserves our support and he's got the right approach on the economy. And that's what he's going to decide this election, not issues of wokeery or culture wars. It's all going to be about the economy.

Okay, thank you very much. It's great to have you in the program today. Sir Robert- Thank you. -buckland speaking to us there.