We thought we're going to have to take an emergency break. We didn't know where you were.

I'm so sorry, Kay. I was just around the corner getting a cup of tea.

Very good. Michael Govie is with us, as you can see, Secretary of State for Leveling Up. First of all, can we talk about these people that seem to be knowing what was happening as far as the election date is concerned and putting bets on? What's all that about?

Well, I don't know, but I know that there are two people who are now subject to this process, I think from the Gambling Commission. I think it's three, actually. Well, there's a police officer as well who's also facing a parallel process. I don't know all the details, but obviously it is not something that anyone should be doing, should have done. It's wrong. But there's a process now. One of the things I learned when I was a justice minister is that you shouldn't... Obviously, it's a matter of public interest, but a politician shouldn't provide a running commentary on an investigation.

I understand that, but there's two issues, really. One of them is whether or not they've broken the law, and we'll find out. But the other is, when you are a senior politician, you need to be able to trust the people around you, don't you?

Yeah.

So how does that make you feel? How would you feel if you were discussing at a high level something like this or whatever it might be, and the people in the car with you were listening in and then basically selling that information?

Well, it's disappointing, but I have to say a deeply disappointing. But I have to say it's the exception rather than the rule. In all the time that I've been a minister, I've been very lucky. The people with whom I've worked, including dedicated police protection officers, are people who are prepared to risk an enormous amount to safeguard others. And just because... And so far, obviously, we'll wait to see what happens. So far, there's only been the allegation about one chap in the police and then two people in politics. Yeah, It's deeply disappointing and upsetting. And the betrayal. Well, again, I don't want to still pre-empt the process. And you're absolutely right that for those who were in possession of the facts and find that others used that information or may have used that information to make money, that's terrible and upsetting. I would feel betrayed. I can completely understand that. But again, I don't want to prejudge the process. But yeah, I completely understand.

Our latest election poll with Yougov says the Tories are on for the lowest number of seats since the party's formation in 1834. This has got to hurt.

Well, obviously, the polls are not the cheeriest reading, but I'm That's a bit of an understatement, Mr. Gove. Well, in Aberdeen, we favor an understatement. But the other thing, though, that I would say is, to continue the Aberdeen theme, I'm a Scotland fan, so you wait until the final whistle. Sometimes it looks as though the odds are against you, but you keep on fighting. So the important thing in this-This is more Germany than Switzerland.

This is 5:1.

Yeah, I know, but that just shows improvement over time. You've not got the time. But there are still two weeks. We can still make those arguments. And of course, I'm not going to deny that politicians look at polls. Of course we do. However, the choice at this election is not between Sky's poll and the Telegraph's poll or the Times's poll. It's between Labor and Conservatives, between two different sets of ideas. And again, there's a relatively straightforward choice to my mind. If you want to continue with lowering taxes, that is what Rishi Sunak would do. Kierst Armor is clear he would raise your taxes £2,000 per family over the lifetime of a Labor Government, and potential tax rises in council tax, taxing your home, your car, and potentially your pension as well.

Tax would go up under a conservative government during the lifetime of the next parliament, if you want.

There'd be a divergence between conservative and Labor, so everyone So everyone knows. But taxes would go up.

You said they would go down, they would go up.

Yeah, everyone knows that it's a straightforward choice. Kierstammer himself has acknowledged it. And in particular, one of my worries is that there would be increased taxes pensioners, increased taxes on first-time buyers, increased taxes on business. Kiers Thomas says he wants growth. I believe him. But the detail of all of these tax increases would be to depress growth and make everyone in this country poorer.

Why, given that you and your colleagues have been banging on about this for more than a month now, is that message not landing to the extent where the conservative Bible, the Daily Telegraph, is suggesting that the Prime Minister could be the first Prime Minister ever to lose his seat at a general election?

Well, I'm not sure that the Daily Telegraph is the conservative Bible, maybe the Old Testament, but not the whole package. You're on the phone this morning. Not the whole package. But it is one of those opinion polls, and as we both acknowledge, they're not cheery reading. But one of the things about the Prime Minister is that he's amazingly resilient. During the course of-He's amazingly unpopular. During the course of the leadership battle when he was against Liz us, or they were arguing over who should be the leader of the conservative Party. He was told, You're going to lose. But he made an argument, and that argument-You did lose. That argument was vindicated. The argument that he made then about the future of our economy showed that he was, A, brave. He was prepared to put up with criticism in order to make an argument that he believed was correct. Then he was proven right. I prefer a leader who's both courageous and right to the alternative.

And one that still had his seat.

Well, again, I'm confident that the Prime Minister will be returned in Richmond, as I'm confident that lots of conservative candidates will be returned. But what we need to do as a party and a government overall is to have a conversation with the electorate. The electorate, of course, will look at polls and front pages, but what they're really interested in are policies. Of course, they'll ask us some tough questions about our record and the future, but the decisions that they make will be decisions about this straightforward choice between either Rishy or Kier Starmer as Prime Minister. I think on that basis, more and more people will come to the conclusion that it is right to support the Conservatives. One lesson that some people may draw from the opinion polls is that if these opinion polls are correct, then Labor are on course for a supermajority will use that supermajority to rig the system, to give votes.

You can't criticize labor for getting more votes. It's down to you guys not being able to get your message across.

Well, as I say, I hope we're getting our message across on tax. One of the things is that if people do reflect on the polls, and of course, some may, they'll ask themselves this question, so if labor do have that really big majority, what's to stop them rigging the system? What's to stop them giving votes to EU citizens, 16-year-olds, prisoners, and making sure that they could be a forever government.

If they've been given a mandate, it's not rigging the system.

Well, all of these are things that we know that Labor have entertained in the past, and my concern is that they would use their power in order to entrench themselves in power. As a general rule, democracies are better when you've got a vigorous opposition and a strong independent media. I don't believe that Kierst Armor, on the basis of his past, would welcome a vigorous independent media holding labor to account, and he certainly would want a strong opposition. He's going to get it. Well, if he's elected, I think that both of us in our respective roles, you as one of the nation's most popular broadcasters, me as a conservative, we're both going to have to do our bit to hold them to account. The more Conservatives there are in Parliament, the better served our democracy will be.

Why are you not getting your message across? I come back to my point initially. Given all of that, why do people not want to vote conservative at this election?

Well, again, we'll see on polling day. Again, there are opinion polls, as I've acknowledged, and as we both know, they're not great, but it's not the 90th minute. We're not in Fergie time yet. So there is still an opportunity for us to make these arguments. Very scleaky bums at down the street. And as we make these arguments, my experience, and I know it's just me and a range of seats, not every seating the country. My experience is that when you do talk to voters, outline some of the tax dangers, outline some of Labour's plans for the future, then people do think twice, and people do recognize that by voting conservative, you are both ensuring that there is a strong conservative voice in Parliament, but also you are doing everything you can to prevent a series of tax increases that won't just hit pensioners and first-time buyers, but will hit the economy in the guts.

Why are you leaving the field then?

Well, I'm over the hill. I've been in Parliament for 20 years. I've been a minister for 39 for the last 14 years. I believe that it's time for the conservative Party to have a new generation coming forward, people like Claire Coutinho, Laura Trott, Kemi Badenoch, alongside Rishi Sunak. I will do my very best as a conservative to support them in that endeavor. But I've done my shift, and it's time for people who've got a greater degree of a bigger future in front of them to take on that torch.

I read that this morning in the Old Testament that Boris Johnson is going to make a comeback, probably for 2029, to be the conservative leader again.

Well, that's a long way ahead. There were lots of profits in the- Would you support him? There were lots of prophets in the Old Testament, and their prophecys were indeed true. Would you support him? Well, I love Boris. So again, who knows what will happen in the future? Is that a yes? But the thing is, it's so far in the future. I want Rishi Sunak to be Prime Minister after the election, and I want Boris to play a big part in our national life because he's a great asset.

Are you going to support England or Scotland at the Euros?

I will support Scotland whenever they play, England whenever they play. And if England plays Scotland, I'll support Scotland. Yeah.

Because you always send to support the winning team, don't you?

Well, as a Scotland fan, that is clearly, emphatically not the record.

More politics.

No, I think, well, on the whole, the Conservatives have successfully managed to win a variety of But I think there have been some causes that I've embraced that haven't, sadly, won in the past. And so what I try to do is to look at the evidence, follow my heart, and then make a call on that basis.

Yeah, you sound pretty... I've got to let you go, but you sound pretty chipper. You're not really, are you?

I am. I think in politics, you've got to be a happy warrior. And I think that there are good reasons to be proud of many of the things the Conservatives done over the last 14 years. There is also a clear choice at this election and a clear choice between higher taxes under Labor and lower taxes under the Conservatives.

As we know, taxes will go up under the Conservatives. We've already established that as well. Given that you're not got a seat to stand in, do you want to come and work with us on election night?

Well, I'm not sure what I'll be doing on election night. Would you like to come and work with us? It may well be that on election night, that I'll be doing my best to support the final get out the vote campaign in one of our seats. So it may well be that after that, that I'll want to thank our activists in one of our seats as well.

Okay, so that's a no then.

At this stage, but there's still two weeks to go.

There you go. Exactly. It's always great to see you. Thanks so much.Thank.

You very much. Thank you much, Kay.Thanks a lot.