How is it on the other side of the House?

It's different. Look, we've just had a bad election defeat. It is very different coming back to the House of Commons in opposition, but it's very important that we have a period of reflection. We have to take this result, obviously, with humility. We respect, we recognize that the Labor Government has a mandate, but we also have to be there being a very effective opposition, scrutinizing what they do, holding them to account for what they deliver, and that's That's what we will do.

How much sympathy do you have for parents who've got children at private school who now are going to have to pay 20% more because you guys are not in office, and that's what labor are going to do, VAT?

Well, look, we debated this extensively during the election campaign. I think it's a wrong-headed policy to impose taxation on education for multiple reasons. It will impact families with children with special educational needs, disproportionately, some faith groups, disproportionately. Also, most of all, there's going to be a displacement effect of some families are not going to be able to afford this, and children will then have to move into the state sector. In some cases, that'll be to schools where there isn't enough space, actually, to accommodate all children, and that will make it harder. It would mean class sizes would rise. It would mean it's harder for others to get their child into-Mine more money for the state sector? Well, you need the space, too. It would mean more money for the state sector, but that, of course, money has to be funded out of taxation. We don't know. Nobody knows exactly what the financial effect of this will be. We do know some families will not be able to afford to continue an independent education funded by parents and grandparents, and they may not be able to do that in the future. Some of those will end up coming into the state sector.

We don't know how many. You can't know how many until it happens because there isn't a precedent. But we do know there will be that effect, and we do know there will be a strain on state schools in some parts of the country.

Okay, we expect that to come into place in January of next year. That's certainly the date that's being hinted at. Before that, you've got a leadership election We've heard James Cleverly already fancies his chances. Would you vote for him?

I'm going to listen to all the candidates. I think we've got... No, we're going to have very talented people in the Parliamentary conservative Party. We don't know yet who all candidates will be, but there will be multiple candidates. I think it's very important. Will you be one of them? I will not be one of them. Just checking. But there will be multiple candidates. It's really important we hear from them all, and not only to hear about them as individuals, but that we have this time as a period of reflection, making sure we learn every lesson that is to be learned from this election campaign that's just gone, but also from the years preceding, making sure we're using it as a time not just to listen to each other and talk to each other, but listen to the public and what they want from their right of center party, from the conservative party, an important part of our democratic makeup. We have to have that full discussion. That's why I think it's right. I've absolutely been one of those who's saying we need to make sure we have enough time for this leadership contest. It shouldn't be a rushed thing.

When we look back in a year's time, nobody will say it made any difference, whether it concluded in September or October or November. The important thing is to have that debate and make sure we take time to get the right answer.

So you haven't decided who you would like to see in the race. We've heard from Suella Braverman, and she says that you need to move away from the centre-ground. Is that something that you would be looking for your leader to do?

Look, we have, broadly speaking, a two-party system. It doesn't It didn't work out exactly like that, but broadly speaking, you need a broad-based party of the centre-left, and you need a broad-based party of the centre-right, and we are the broad-based party of the centre-right. That means you have to appeal to a range of people. You cannot win elections by going to one side or the other. You have to have a proposition which takes in a large part of the election, a large part of society, and make sure that you have a compelling proposition. That's not the argument, is it? To put to the public. I'm not getting into discussions about individuals and who might not be in the leadership contest because that time is to come. That time is to come, but it's not here just yet. Nominations haven't closed yet. We'll see who that range of people is, and we'll have the debate It's about the future direction of the party and how we can best serve our country, because that ultimately is what it's about. That is why people like me and my colleagues, is why we came into politics, is to do the best we can for our country.

We have a responsibility as one of the two big parties to make sure that we are absolutely focused on people's priorities and having a strong program to get us back into government in the future.

What do you make of Keir Starmer suspending the whip for six months? In other words, those seven MPs are not Labor MPs for six months. Now because they voted against one of his policies.

Well, that's fair enough. If you're in a political party and you vote against your party, in this case, they voted for an SNP motion, you've got to expect to lose the whip.

Can we not just get a slapped risk given that he's got such a large majority. It didn't make any difference.

Well, it's not for me to give advice to. What I'm saying is, I think it's reasonable to say if you're in a political party, you've got to stick with that program. If you don't like that program, then go. But otherwise, you work together. Clearly, there is a range of views in the Labor Party. It may be that on this and other subjects, some of those different Differences may well come more to the fore. They've certainly got some difficult decisions to make ahead on things like the public finances, on taxation. They have known for a long time what's in the public finances. It's all there in the Office of Budget Responsibilities reporting. But so far, they've managed to dodge a lot of those questions during the election campaign, and subsequently, they won't be able to dodge them forever.

No, they will not. That's for sure. What they have decided on already is the Bibi Stock Home, where it's basically a floating, let's call it a floating hotel, should we, where not a very particularly nice place to be. It's where we were asking asylum seekers to wait while we decided whether or not they could stay in this country. That is going to be sent from whence it came. Thoughts on that?

Well, that's all the bibby stock home was part of our approach to accommodation. It's quite a substantial facility to accommodate quite a number of people. I think the government have said that by January, I think the contract will not be renewed, and I think they think they're going to have achieved some very substantial-Savings. Bringing down... Well, the savings are also very substantial bringing down of processing backlogs by January. Well, let us see what they managed to do. Fundamentally, we think on this question of deterring illegal immigration, the fundamental thing is you need a deterrent, and that's what the Rwanda plan was all about. This government has scrapped the Rwanda plan without coming back with an alternative. They didn't even have a parliamentary vote on it. We think you need that deterrent, ultimately. They have a mandate.

They said that that's what they were going to do in the election. People voted in.

I said that right at the start, and I don't deny that at all. Government absolutely has a mandate. It has a big majority. We also have a responsibility as the opposition to scrutinize what they do, to examine it, to monitor it, to call out when we think mistakes are being made, but most of all, to hold them to account for what they actually deliver.

Okay, Shadow Minister, good to see you. Thank you very much indeed for joining.