Jason, I know we got to do this show, but do you have something else that you need to do?

I did not get up early enough to take care of everything one usually takes care of in the morning.

Like taking out the trash or whatever?

Well, some people call it that.

Like opening some windows? All right, so we'll pause. Why don't you take care of that, and then we'll just play the music and stuff, and then we'll be at All New Smartless. No, let's just make this a fast episode. No, let's just go to All New Smartless.

Smart. Will, did you just finish your workout? I got a little bit of sweat going there on the front of the shirt.

I did. I haven't showered. I just put on a clean shirt. I haven't showered yet. Luckily, I'm in my booth, but I know it's gross.

What's your flavor of workout currently? Are you still doing the nonsense with the platinum white leather punching bag?

No. Remember that? I'm not boxing anymore. It's really, by the way, a great workout with my friends over at fight camp. But no, I'm now doing the catalyst. I'm in the catalyst suit that sends electric pulses.

I get it. Oh, this is the big, lazy loser workout where you just zip on a suit that electroshocks you and you don't need to do shit.

I'm doing a workout while I do it, and it's a great product.

Jason, Jason, when he wears it, he looks like Beyoncé from the Single Ladies video.

Okay, well, thanks for the reference from 2008. We really appreciate it.

Listen, and I'd appreciate it. Don't stop talking to me like I can recall Beyoncé videos at the drop of a hat because I can't.

Yeah, no. But by the way, her album just came out. It's really good.

Okay, yeah. It is the country one. Is it good?

You've heard it? It's really good. Yeah, it's really, really good.

Is it real twangy country? No. No, it's just her version of it.

She's got a lot of collaborations on it. You know who did it?

You know who did a great country album is Beck. You remember Beck's country album? Oh, yeah. It was very good. Yeah. Okay. That's me.

We'll just have that to the note. Hang on.

1990s calling. What are you doing? Sorry.

By the way, Sean, doesn't JB look like he could put out a country record right now.

Absolutely.

No, and then you just tilt down and you see that. Oh, look at the Pixies. Name one Pixies song. The Night We Went Out.

There we go. I mean, this is great.

That's not a real song. Is that a real song? No.

It's a great T-shirt.

Yeah, okay. Let's get to our guests. Another guest that I have. Listen, this damn project I'm working on here on the East Coast is really cutting into my prep time for my guests. I have not yet been able to I had an intro for my guests since this project has been in existence.

However-you're going to start guessing.

Yeah, well, it just puts me on par with you guys.

It's always somebody else or something else's fault. When's it your fault? Never.

Okay. Never. I'm not just going to just say his name. I will say, I am happy to have this gentleman here. This is the worst intro ever. That's good. I love him. He is a dear friend of mine and yours will, Sean. Next cue card. I think you may know him. I'm not sure. But listen, this is the guy that has got so much kindness and warmth in him That you actually, if you're a cynic like me, you doubt his sincerity. But if you know him as well as I do, you know it's sincere. It's real. Gang, this is somebody who is absolute royalty in our business. He is one of my favorite people in the world. He's one of our best actors, one of our best comics, an incredible author. We can't say enough. Just come on out. Everybody, it's Henry Winkler.

I love Henry Winkler.

What can you say? Are you joking?

I can bow for the sincerest, sincerity thing. You're like, dubbed the nicest person in show business. Exactly.

You know what? I don't necessarily think I am the nicest. I think I'm just grateful.

Oh, grateful. I love the grateful.

I'm just grateful. Sometimes I'm so filled with just being on the Earth.

Yeah. You can feel it.

You know what? I believe you, Henry. I do. I believe you. I've spent some time. I really believe you. It's so good to see you.

Thank you. I'm so happy to finally be on the show.

Now, look at the desk behind you, my God, that's a pile of work you got going on in your desk.

That's one of the greatest offices you'll ever step into. The wall that he's facing right now is stock filled with stuff you could spend an hour looking at, all these memories, all these tchatchkees and memorabilia.

It's true. But remember, I've been doing this a long time. What I didn't know is that this was only a voice podcast that we weren't recording it video. I could have been in my pajamas.

Yeah, like us.

We're in a sweaty T-shirt like me.

Yeah. You could have taken your hair off even, Henry. Not a lot of people know that Henry has been bald since 14. 14 years old. Yeah, Unfortunately, yeah.

I used to do the limbo at high school dances. It was the only way I got some self-esteem, and the wig slid right off.

No way.

It was horrible. Because of your skills.

Imagine thinking, I got low self-esteem. How am I going to build it up? You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to answer the limbo.

I'm going to limbo the shit out of this party.

I was the best in my high school.

Is that true? I bet. Yeah.

You know why I believe that, Henry? Is because what just came to mind was that episode of Happy Days, where you do where the Fonds does that dance. The Kuzatsky. Yeah, where you get low.

My parents took me to see the Moussa F folk ballet at Madison Square Garden when I was in the sixth grade. This is that athletic jumping in the air, spread eagle, doing the... I I was overwhelmed and taught myself a bastardized version in my room that I would do at any dance I attended.

Really? That was your closer?

That was my closer.

How did it come about that you're making Happy Days, and they say, Fons needs to have it, and you're like, Hang on a second, I got this.

Got this in my back pocket.

Interestingly enough, There were so many episodes, I was asked to do all kinds of stuff. They came up with this, How do you win the Dance Contest? I said, Well, I can do this. They played Hava Naguila, and I was off and running.

We're going to pop around all over the place. But while we're there, was it The Fonds was not meant to be the star of the show, correct?

No, I had six lines. When I auditioned, I had six lines, and then I worked one day a week for the first year. Being anxious and short, I could not leave my apartment on a weekday, so I just sat in my apartment waiting for the day of work and then waiting for the weekend when I could finally leave.

Wow. What do you mean you were afraid to to leave your apartment because you're anxious and short?

No, I wasn't afraid. I couldn't leave my apartment because I was so duty bound, I couldn't play on a work day.

Got it.

So I had all the fan mail delivered to my apartment. It was pretty much like a hoarder navigating my way through the boxes of letters in crayon.

I'm written directly to your address? You just gave out your address?

No, No, it came to Paramount, and Paramount had it delivered.

All right, got it. Good.

Then I would get presents. Sure. I got a metal cutting that said, If you will it, it is not a dream, which became my watchword or my phrase for the rest of my life. Your mantra. If you will it, you can have what it is you want.

I believe that 100%.

That came on a what?

On a metal cutting that was sent to me in the mail by a fan.

It was out of the license plate shop at the prison?

You know what? It could have been.

It could have been.

Then I had it framed. It's up on my wall in- That's pretty cool.

I like the idea that somebody does that, that somebody like some guy, Jason is joking about he's in prison, but some dude who's a big fan, he had a few too many pops one night and just etched it into metal frame as a nothing, and for you, it became your mantra.

It became my mantra.

Put it on metal as a bit of a clutterbuster. He doesn't want to get caught up in all the other fan letters.

Well, I got a lot of wood, too.

Sure, I bet.

Sure.

A lot of wood.

Sure.

Jewelry I got linger. Little girls would send me their bears or their crucifixes.

I'll bet the big girl sent some linger. I mean, the Fons is a bit of a sex symbol.

I got linger. Yes. Then people would come to the apartment and lift their shirt and ask me to sign parts of their anatomy. Sure. No way.

I got it.

And of course, I wouldn't because I was afraid that the ink would get into their bloodstream.

Yeah, good for you.

What a nice guy. That would be the first time I would doubt your sincerity right there.

Yeah, you can if you want. Sure.

So people can show up now. Your house tarps off. No problem.

No fear of getting any ink.

I I shouldn't... Well, okay. I'm sitting in my apartment. I have a Victrola because everything was vinyl. I went to Tower Records on Sunset Boulevard. I bought Dan Fogelberg, and I was listening to Dan Fogelberg on my rented Victrola. The door knocks. I get up. There are three men with badges. I said, Oh, no, you do Do not smell what you think you're smelling. Oh, my God.

There was some weed going.

They said, We're with the FBI. We're not here for that. We just wanted to meet the Fonds.

No way. No way. Wow. That's pretty cool.

That's so funny. That's a bit of an It was an abuse of their-I would say. It's a busy day for them. Their assets, right?

They just looked up your address. I was so happy that I was not being put in handcuffs. I didn't care what they did. Yeah, you're right.

They were all paranoid all the time.

You're right. You're so happy that you're not getting I'm busted for having a big pile of stinky bud. Hey, Henry, let me ask you this. I remember you telling me years ago, the story about when you got that part on Happy. I know we're just in the Happy Days era right now because it was such a huge part of Culturally, I don't think people understand how big it was, if you're younger, starting the late '70s, then the '80s, how massive Happy Days was globally. You got that part. I think you told me once. Will you remind me of that story of how that came to be?

I was not a complete human being in my life. I could not connect my mind and my emotion. I was just being who I thought I should be. Why? I come from... Walking into my apartment was like walking into a minefield. My short German parents were horrible. But so I-Oh, wait, go back.

What? Hey.

We'll go back on that. I could somehow unleash myself professionally. So I walk in to the audition, and I changed my voice. I said, Hi, my name is Henry. I'm from New York City, and I'm here to try out for the part of Fonzie, what the Fonzie Monzarely. And then I looked at the guy who was reading with me. His name was Pasquale. And I don't know where it came from, but I was able to just go. I said, Hey, don't you look at me like that. Overt your eyes, pal. And then I did six lines through the script in the air, saunted out of the room. And on my birthday, when it was time for me to go back to New because I only had a month, they called and said, Would you like to play this part?

Wow.

I remember you saying that you were going to go back to New York. You were like, I'm done. I'm going back.

Well, I thought. I literally thought, Well, I don't have any more money. I'm not getting much. Maybe I'm not supposed to be here.

But however, you were a Yale grad at this point, yes, out of Yale drama. Yes. So you were stock full of credentials and ability. Did you not have confidence that you were going to be able to make a career?

I got confidence about last Wednesday. That was the first time. I literally, I've said this before, but imagine that I am a bowl of Jello before it congeals in the ice box in the refrigerator. My insides were shaking like I was at the Rumba Room.

Yeah, for sure.

Was there ever a moment where you didn't want to talk about playing the fawns, like a section of your life where you're just like, I don't want to talk about it, and then you embraced it or no?

No, because I understood in those 10 years, the incredible gift that I was given in being introduced to the world, no matter where we went on the planet, somebody stopped me, invited me to their house for dinner. The Native Americans in the Hopi tribe, you have to lock your camera away because they think you're taking their soul. They invited me to get my camera when we took Jed, who is now 53, but at the time was in the third grade studying Native Americans. They invited me to get my camera so I could take a picture of the Kachina dances. What an honor. And that is the microcosm of my life at that time.

Sean, be honest, are you still thinking about the Jello in the fridge?

Yes. I'm about to drive over to Henry's house and knock out the leafblower. I'm going to get him.

Yeah, he's next door.

But, Henry, I remember seeing photos or video of you going on these world tours. You were in Japan or something.

With the Happy Days baseball team.

Yeah, Was that what it was?

Gary Marshall, I miss him every day, was just a brilliant human being. A problem solver, very strict.

He created Happy Days.

He created Happy Days and Mork and Mindy and La Verne, and Shirley and The odd couple and on and on and on. Then went on to direct these great movies, Pretty Woman being one of them. Gary Marshall always wanted to own a sports team. And I think he bought a part of the Portland Beavers. So we played softball. Then we were invited by the USO, and the Happy Days ball team flew to Germany, and we played in all these small towns. And at that time, there was the Cold War was still going on. And so So these men and women were in these small towns at the border of Germany. We would play softball with them. I would like to really take this Garner.

Is he in the room?

He is sitting on my lap Just try using a vacuum cleaner instead.

You're so lazy, Henry.

I don't need to leave more in there. I'm telling you, it's the next door neighbor.

No, I know. They're so messy over there.

Yeah. But anyway. Then we played all over Germany. Here's the great thing. I'm walking through an airport and a young woman comes up to me with a stroller and said, I was my daughter's age when you came to Germany and played against my dad's team.

Wow.

What a circle. Then we went to Okinawa.

That's where Scotty was born.

We played, again, with the American troops in Japan.

What year was that?

Jed was 13, so I have no idea.

Forty years ago. Did you guys only played in access countries like Japan, Germany, and Italy, too? Yes.

Then we played in every major ball field in America. We would play exhibition games before the Mets, before the Giants. Who's on this team? The Dodgers, the Angels.

Who's on the Happy Days team?

Who was there? Ron Howard, a great athlete, believe it or not.

What position was Richie in?

He would play center field, shortstop. Okay, sure. Donnie Most, Great athlete.

Where was he? Where did we have Ralph?

Donny was maybe left field or second base.

You got to put Patsy in right, right?

No, he was on first base.

He wanted to buy a ticket to the game. Patsy in right. First base. You just point and say, sit on it, Patsy, and point to first base.

That is exactly right. He went and he was good. He could catch. I couldn't catch, so I was the pitcher. They taught me how to pitch, and that is all I could do. Ron Howard bought me a mitt. Anson bought me a bat, my first in my life. Really? I got really good at pitching. But if the ball was hit toward me, I turned my body to the left and stopped the ball with my body. I was black and blue for eight years.

You're pitching too many over the middle of the plate, it sounds like.

Well, I pitch shutouts. What about- That was good. Wait a minute. Let's not go by that so quick.

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Now, back to the show.

I want to get to you. Is it true that your audition for Yale, when you went into Yale drama school, that you completely blanked on your Shakespeare monolog? I did. You made one up? Is that true? I did. So you improvised in Shakespeare in Iambic Pentameter?

No, not in Iambic with her. But I told the story. The monolog was Lance and his Dog. I don't even remember what play it was from because I know my limitations. This was out of my perfume. I went Lance and the Dog. Then I said, Went for a walk, and I made it up.

They still let you in.

Absolutely brilliant.

Not only did they let me... Okay, so there are 25 actors started, 11 finished. I was one of three actors asked into the professional company. I now am making $172 a week. I am starting my dream. I am eight thinking about being a professional actor. I am now being paid. I don't know. Then I got a $10 raise, went to one of the best repertory theaters in the country in Washington, DC. It was Moon Children. That was a cast. That's terrible. Michael Tucker, Jill Ikenberry, Chris Guest, just on and on. Jimmy Woods.

Oh, wow.

Jimmy Woods. Oh, my God.

Now, so how did you... Did you get to Yale via acting chops or were you an academic?

I am in the bottom three 80% academically in America.

So then what are you doing over at Yale?

Well, I was all just auditioning. It's just your ability to impress them as an actor.

What at eight years old made you want to act? Was it that dance thing that you saw?

That is a good question. I'm not sure. My standard answer is if people were born to try and do something, I was born to try and be an actor.

Wow.

But did you have that in your family? Did your parents encourage it? Did you guys go see a lot of shows?

My parents encouraged me, not an Iota. My father brought a lumber business over from Germany. He imported and exported wood, and he wanted me to do the same. He wanted me to take over the business. My joke is he said to me, Why do you think I bought a business over here? I said, Besides being chased by the Nazi's dad, was there a bigger reason?

Right.

Oh, my God. Henry, what year did your mom and dad come over from journey? Was it in the '30s?

1939.

Wow.

My father asked his mother and took my mother's jewelry, bought a box of chocolate, melted the chocolate, poured the chocolate over the jewelry, put it back in the box, put the box under his arm, and then got a work visa for six weeks. So when the Nazis said, Are you taking anything of value? He said, No, open my bags. You check my pockets. I have nothing. And that box of chocolate started him on his new life because he panned all of the jewelry until he was able to buy it back. I have my great grandfather's pocket watch that came out of jewelry encased in chocolate. Do you really? Wow.

That's usually right with the gold coin. It's usually gold on the outside and chocolate in the middle. This time it was reversed. Yes.

Look at that. Yes. That chocolate, you couldn't eat it. You could not eat it. It always gave you herpes.

It was a terrible But what an amazing story. When your father comes, I get it, the way you characterize him, he's like, he was tough. He wanted you to take over the lumber business. But I'm sure in his mind, he's like, Hey, I came in tough Sometimes we were being persecuted. You're right.

I understand all of that. I swear. I do. I admire. They learned a new language. He started a business in a new country. He didn't know if he would be able to stay. But here it is. When you have a child and they're in front of you, they're not an extension of who you are. They're not there to make you proud. And if you see your child has got a problem, Even if you don't know the name, if you don't understand it, your job is to make sure that that child feels comfortable enough not to lose their entire self-esteem, but to help them meet their destiny, not get proud of them when they figured out how to meet their destiny all by themselves.

That's so interesting. Because you had to battle through some pretty significant dyslexia challenges, yes?

I still do. You don't lose it. Dyslexia is with you. You just have to learn to negotiate it. And there are things I just can't do. And then there are other people who I depend on to do it. Thank God, Stacy, my wife, is a brilliant speller. But it's hereditary. I'm sorry.

I was going to say you've written books about it. You've been really vocal about it in terms of identifying it in kids and helping them because of your own experience and using that to try to talk about it. Am I right about that?

I did not know that that was going to happen. In 2001, I had just finished a Broadway play with John Ritter and Len Cariou. It was a A Neil Simon play. Oh, my God. It was my dream. The first play I did, open and closed in one night. This one ran for nine months. Wow. So I come home, can't get hired. I go to a friend and I said, I don't know what to do. I need help. He said, Write books for children about your learning condition. I said, I can't do it because I've got a learning problem. Yeah, right.

He said, I'm going to I'll introduce you to Lynn Oliver.

And then, you know what I found out? The lesson is there is not one way to do anything. There is your way, and your way is as valid as any other way.

I love that. Was there any... While you were discovering that you had dyslexia, did you know something was wrong? Did you do anything to try to hide it?

I used humor. I couldn't read. I couldn't read off a page, I couldn't spell. I still can't spell. Look, I have over my computer, I have words schedule that I can't sound out. Really? So they're there because I use them so often, like the word schedule. I just look up and that's how I spell it. Wow.

I remember when I was a kid in school, I knew I had problems with my eyes. I couldn't see, and I sat in the back of the class, and the class had two doors, one at the front entrance of the class and one at the end. I would ask to go to the bathroom, and I would leave the classroom, go up the hallway to the front entrance, and there was just a little vestibule before you opened it. I would look through the glass to read the blackboard to see what was on it. Then I would go back to my desk in the back of the class. Because I was too embarrassed.

I was like, I can't see the- I understand.

Henry, I'm borrowing Sean. I'm at Sean's desk, and I just found this over his computer. You can probably see spaghetti and equals it. I don't know why.

Can I just say something? More of an affirmation.

Can I just say something? Each one of you, I know individually, I know I met the two of you. I met you at the first day of doing Arrested Development. You were on the couch in the living room. I was your lawyer and not very good. And Sean, I met at Max Munchnik's party, and I was so overwhelmed by meeting him that I was a little out of body. And he looked at me, I said, I'm so And he looked at me and went, Hello. I thought, Oh, I've completely screwed that up.

Oh, God, no. I was probably dying inside.

But that is- No. I'm so happy to be with you.

Henry, can I tell you something? I have so many great memories, and people ask me all the time about working with you, and obviously, you're an icon. I have a bunch of really distinct, and they're all good memories of you. I'll tell you them in no particular. One is, and Jay, you were there. We were doing a scene, me and Jason, and you, Henry, and Jeffrey, tambour, and we were doing a scene in a bathroom at the old season one. We were doing this scene in a bathroom. I forget the conversation in the scene. Then we all leave the room, and at the end, you're left in the bathroom, you look in the mirror, you go to comb your hair, and you go, nah, like that Fonzie move, but really subtly, and then you walk out. That was my first. I remember Jason and I going like, Can you believe we're doing this scene, and he's doing a fucking Fonzie thing. How lucky are we that we get to be doing A? That's my A. My B is this. My first year of Arrested Development, I was living in LA part-time just to work, and I had a few friends, Jason Jason being one of them, and Sean and I weren't that friendly yet.

I didn't really like him that much. But I was on my own often. On the weekends, if I didn't go back to New York, I was on my own. You and your wife, Stacey, welcomed me in your home a few times. On a Saturday morning, you'd say, Come over, and we do breakfast and bagels and blah, blah, blah. And you were so kind. It's where I met Jed. It's where I met all your kids, Max. And I was like, This is It was unbelievable. It was so kind. You took your time and you welcomed me into your home. And honestly, I never forget it to this day how kind that was of you.

I love it. Well, you're all invited. There is a seat at my table. I had the pleasure of having Jason and his incredible wife for dinner. The only one who hasn't been here is Sean.

Amanda and I went over there, and Zoe was there, and Rob was there, the great Rob Reines.

Oh, I was going to say that. Then Zoe and Rob. Of Of course, I've come to know Rob, your son-in-law. Obviously, over the years, he built my house. He's an incredible guy.

He's so good. Isn't he? He's incredible. I had a conversation with him outside, but he was an actor. He was a really good actor. He wanted to date my daughter, and I said, I just want to tell you, you better earn a living because this is not a Yeezy person.

We We can cut it out, but what's Rob's last name?

Rob Reines. Rob Reines. Is that the contractor?

He wanted to be an actor, and I said, Oh, you. Yeah, he's the contractor. You want something built in Los Angeles.

He's a great builder of homes. He and his partner, Brian. You know what? And so that was the conversation. So he then went to his father's friend, got a job because his father's friend is also a very good building company. And he started in the parking lot where the crew would come and he would move the cars around so they all fit in the small space of the parking for the day. And he met Brian, who was part of the crew. And together, they have made this wonderful company.

Sean, the company is called VRB. My old house that I used to have up the hill, Rob built that house. Yeah, I met the guy. Then the house I'm in now, Rob completely redid it and I did everything. Anytime, anything, this is the guy Rob is. When he built that other house that I used to live in, something fucked up. When we were going to do this, then we're going to have a deck. It came and it wasn't quite right. Usually, guys, contract You go, That's the way it is. Too bad. You got to pay blah, blah, blah. Rob says, I'm rebuilding the deck. I'm paying for the labor, the lumber, everything. That's not your fault. I'm taking care of it. I said, Rob, you don't have... He goes, No, I have to do it. That's the guy he is.

That's amazing.

Hey, Sean, can I ask you a question? This has been on my mind for a long time. Are you going to bring your Broadway award-winning show to LA?

No. It's had a marvelous life.

I want to tell you for the listening audience who did not have the extraordinary experience of seeing Goodnight Oscar on Broadway, Sean Hayes, first of all, disappeared. You know Sean, and you saw nothing of the Sean you know on that stage. And then you find out he is a concert pianist and for 30 minutes plays the piano concert ready. The audience jettisoned out of their seats. They leapt out of their seats. That's very sweet of you. It was electrified. It really was.

Recently? This is a recent project, Shani?

Yes, it is. It was about a year ago.

You were crying right next to me, Willy. Then Sean, he went and go ahead and he took a Tony Award for it. It's very nice.

I knew that. You were very sweet to even talk about it. I saw you on a morning talk show talk about it. I was floored. I was like, Oh, my God. One of my childhood idols is talking so lovely about me.

It was But if you did not win the Tony, there would have been something wrong with the universe.

That's very nice.

I agree. That's true.

We'll be right back.

Ellis, your favorite Murray's. Be honest. Andy. Number one. Colin. Number two. I take that. Judy. Judy III. I'm happy to be above Judy.

I don't even put me above Judy.

Judy's a better person than me. I don't think I'm putting you above Judy. You're just being polite. I think you're in at number three. I was being polite. I will.

There are other Murries out there, so I will absolutely take that.

But number one on your list was Andy Murray. So seeing as he was number one on your list, we'll scrap the idea of doing a three-part podcast on me. On your sports career. And instead we'll do it in Andy Murray, The Hunt for the Holy Grail, which is, of course, his first Wimbledon. I'd quite like to do a three-part series in your sports career. Age 12, Belfast, and Colin Murray can't find his boot bag. It would be awful. This one isn't all be great because Andy Murray winning Wimbledon was one of those seismic moments in our lifetime in sport.

Yeah, huge. Yeah, and so much to talk about this three-part series.

So subscribe on WNDYRY Plus or wherever you get your podcast. Em, what do you look for in a globally massive pop star? Oh, I want sensationally inappropriate outfits, incredible glamor, and an almost unapproachable cool. Well, for the latest series of Terrible Famous, would you settle for some plaid shirts, ginger hair, and an acoustic guitar? No, no, I won't. What if there's a loop pedal? All right, keep talking. That is actually it. It just sounds a bit ordinary. Emily, this is Ed Sheeran. You really won't believe the twists and turns his story takes. Okay, fine. Sell me Ed. Addiction, shame spirals, family interventions, grief, massive court cases, obsession. Okay, I'm listening. Ed mapped out his whole career when he was just a teenager, and he has followed that path to some very strange places. How strange? Jennifer Anaston's Sun Lounge. Just an ordinary guy. Follow Terrible Famous wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free on WNDYRY Plus on Apple Podcasts or the WNDYRY app. Hello, I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford, and we're the hosts of WNDYRY's podcast, British Scandal. Where we tell you outrageous tales of how the mighty have fallen on these pleasant pastures.

In our latest series, we're donning the Tennis Whites and Downing the Pims for a Wimbledon-themed scandal. Yes, we're telling the story of Boris Becker, how he went from being a tennis child star Wimbledon champion to having a one-night stand in a London bar that turned into a headline-grabbing paternity row. And then tax evasion that saw him behind bars just a couple of miles from Wimbledon Center Court. So if you need something just a little juicier than the current rolling coverage of aces and juices and people queuing for things, then this might just be for you. To find out the full story, follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free me on WNDYRI Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Hey, it's Guy Raz here, the host of How I Built This, a podcast that gives you a front row seat to how some of the biggest products were built and the innovators, entrepreneurs, and idealists behind them. Every week, I speak to someone new. Stories like Justin Wilberton, a lawyer who just wanted healthy alternative to ice cream, so he created Halo Top in his Cuisine art. Or Todd Graves, who grew his fried chicken restaurant Raising Canes into one of the most successful fast food chains in the US.

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And now back to the show.

Henry, so you shoot out of the stratosphere with Happy Days. You are arguably one of the most famous men in the world. You probably can't walk down the street. What was that adjustment like? And then I want you to talk to me about the adjustment afterwards when you couldn't possibly match that level of success or profile. How did you weather that gap between the end of Happy Days and and the highlights that followed after that? Because you can't keep it up at that level. And how did you manage the swale?

Those are two really great questions. Because I swear to God, I think I have to really give it to my dyslexia because there's an emotional component that goes on. Your lack of self, no matter how you appear on the outside, is churning on the inside. So people talking to me like I can walk on water. I keep looking over my shoulder because they can't possibly be talking to me because they don't know who I am. So I was able to keep grounded. Then I met Stacy, which did an even better job. And then Jed came with the marriage. He was a gift with the marriage, and that, painting his face to look like kiss, kept you focused on what is in the moment and has nothing to do with who you are.

Right.

Okay. I had the most amazing time. Now it comes, I have an office, I have a production deal. Fair to income. Because of Skip Britonham III. And now I am not getting any calls or callbacks. And I'm having like, psychic pain. I'm telling you, there was a pain in my brain from not having any idea of what to do next. I had a plan A, and I just lived it. I had no plan B. And then I literally thought it's over. And I had the fear, what do I do? Will it match it? Could I ever match it? Same thing happened just now. We just finished Barry at the end of last year. Will I match it? Will I... Thank you. Thank you. I'm standing. I'm taking a battle. I could have... Yeah. Okay. It was palpable. And then my lawyer, Skip, said, I'm going to start a production company for you. So here's another lesson I learned. I said, I can't do that. I know nothing about business. I'm dyslexic. He said, You learn and you know something. So there were things about being a producer I could do. And the other things, I found people who could do it better.

But it was- So this was Fair d'Income. This is a production company that was set up after Happy Days, and the acting calls were not during. And the acting calls were not coming post Happy Days. No.

But for eight years.

During that time, out of desperation or creativity or whatever it was, you started to diversify into producing and directing as well, yes. This is where directing those movies came along a little bit later. Macgyver, yeah?

Oh, yeah, MacGyver. Macgyver was the first show that we ever produced. I had three different partners, writing partners, who were going to create the material to do my on-air commitments. At that time, they paid you not only compensation, but they gave you... If you brought them a show like ABC, if you brought ABC a show they liked, they would put it right on. You didn't have to go through the process. So I had two of those. And MacGyver was- I didn't know you produced MacGyver.

That's great.

Yeah, that was the first one that we ever brought to ABC.

And what were the two?

What was the other one that you liked? The other one was with Jeff Tambore, where he played a blind English professor. So funny. It was called Mr. Sunshine, but we only did 13. It did not last. I remember. But it was great.

Yeah, I was going to try to guess.

I was going to say a good title for that would have been, Where are my glasses? You start producing that and MacGyver gets on the air. It takes off. It's a big head. It's a massive head. How old was that?

Well, it went for Thirteen years, the first iteration, and then we brought it back for five. So it was a pretty terrific run.

Did Forte and John Salmon, those guys, have to reach out to you when they started doing MacGroover? No. Did you like those McGroobert? Did you like those MacGroover spin? I did.

I think Will is unbelievable. But no, they did not reach out to me because it was owned by Paramount and ABC at the time.

Right. You do that, so you start getting into producing and you just figure, what? I'm just going to be a producer forever, and this is- I didn't know.

I thought I was just going to be a producer for a minute. Then it became a profession. Then we We did sightings for seven years, studying all things paranormal. Then we did a wonderful show, which was a kid's show in So Weird. We produced it in Vancouver about a little girl, Mackenzie Phillips. This was her first job after cleaning herself up. She was a rock star on a bus Oh, yes. Her manager drove the bus. Her daughter and the manager's son would go off when they were setting up the concerts and stuff and find paranormal experiences in whatever town they were in. It was called So Weird. All right.

Now, how long did that one go? That sounds like a sprinter.

That one went for three or four years.

Three or four years out of that one? Good Lord. All right. So then you're feeling I'm booied by the producing success. There is still a passion for acting.

Passion for acting, feeling horrible. That there's nothing.

Well, because you were so... I mean, you may have started the term typecast because You were so identifiable as the Fonds because he was so popular. Listener, this was at a time when there were three networks, period. Happy Days was, if not the top show, one of the top shows. You're probably getting 30 to 40 to 50 million people watching you every week. You can't move. You can't ask an audience to see you as anything different because you're so beloved as that character. So to ask someone to hire you to play somebody else is probably a tall order. So you diversify into producing, you're doing the directing. At what point did you feel that maybe there had been enough time now where you could start to have a realistic expectation to be hired as an actor?

Do you know what I learned? And I've used this image a lot, but I see myself as that with sand at the bottom, and you blow it up, and it was a cowboy at one time. Probably now it's a Star Wars figure, and you punch it and it goes down. And it comes right back to center. I saw myself like that, that I would... And then eventually, what I learned is for everybody who is listening, a lot of people will say no, but But you just stay at the table long enough, somebody is going to say yes. And I did a movie for television, a real story about a father of two. His wife was in an accident. She was pregnant. And I could have an abortion and keep the child, or she would have the child and I would lose my wife. And the right to lifers took me to the Supreme Court charge, not to save my wife. Okay. Wow. I mean, that was the story, and we lived on Long Island.

You got some good responses from that, and it was a bit of a reset button for you?

It was a reset button. Yes. Then I did one of the worst movies made by a human being called Control Tower. On that set, I got a phone call, Would I Like to be in the Waterboy?

Right.

Yeah, that's right.

Nice. Let's get to one of my favorite shows of all time. Sean, it's called The Rest of Development, and you played a character on that. Let me write it down. Let me write it down. You knew Jeffrey when you came on the show. Yeah, a little bit. Did you know Mitch Herwitz at all before you came? No, I didn't know.

I didn't know anybody. Remember, I was hired as your family lawyer for or two episodes and happily stayed for the next five or six years.

The name of the character was?

Barry Zuckercorn.

Barry Zuckerborn. Barry Zuckerborn. Sean, there's a moment in season two of Arrest Development where we're all out on the dock. It was supposed to be Orange County, but we were in the marina. The show got sponsored. We were hanging on by a thread because the ratings weren't good. We got a sponsor, and it was like the Burger King crispy sandwich or something. I'm in. The term jumping the shark, of course, came from Henry when he was on Happy Days when the Fonds jumps the shark, right?

Then the criticism was it was an episode so late in the run of the series that they had basically run out of ideas. Now they're going to write that the Fonds jumps his motorcycle over a shark. Oh, my God, aren't they reaching for story lines? It became known as, well, you don't want to write that episode. That's like jumping the shark.

Except we were number one for the next four years.

Exactly. But the cynics put it, painted that way, and the term became jumping the shark. In this episode, in this moment where we're trying to figure out what we're going to do, and we've got this sponsor, we have to work in this Burger King chicken sandwich in it.

We have to actually have it in an episode. The Fox Network says, yeah, the only way we can cash in the money from Burger King is we've got to get the name of the sandwich into the actual dialog of the show, and we're just furious on set.

Everybody's furious, and Mitch is furious. If Mitch figures out this way, there's a scene where Henry, his character, Barry Zeggert, talking to us about something, and there are all these- Buster had just had his arm bitten off by a seal-by a seal.

Out in the ocean.

Then they captured, I guess, what? Then they had a bunch of sharks on the thing. Henry goes, Listen, I'd love to talk to you guys about this, but I got to go to Burger King and get one of their crispy chicken sandwiches. Then he just does a ginderly little hop over a shark.

That's on the dock.

That's on the dock.

How fucking funny. It was so good.

I'm the only actor in the universe who's jumped the shark twice.

That's right.

That's very good. That's very good. That's right. So, Henry, that's hysterical. What excites you now? Do you still get up and like, I love acting. I want to keep acting till the day I die. I do. Yeah, you still love it. Yeah, that's good.

I do. I have to say I'm in a moment in time right here as we're talking about be very careful what you wish for. Because my life... I wrote a memoir last October.

Yes, you did. Yes.

Called Being Henry.

Being Henry.

Being Henry.

I love that. It was on the New York Times best seller.

It was a New York Times best seller for 11 weeks.

Eleven weeks. Wow. Then I went to Australia to to tour with the book, and it became number one. Now they're taking me to Ireland, Scotland, and England on a book tour. Oh, my goodness gracious me.

That's so cool. That's so cool. Congratulations.

I I forget we have to mention Detective Duck because the new one is coming out in October, the second- Children's book. They're going to be four.

That's more my speed. Now, is this Zipser?

No. Hank Zipser was 28 28 in total.

28 books, seven million copies sold.

28 individual novels. Then we wrote Here's Hank, when he was in the second grade. Here's Hank, I'll tell you, is really interesting because we use a font that has never been used before. Can you see? It makes it easier for the eye and the mind to connect.

That's more spread apart.

A dad whose children were dyslexic, developed it in Holland, the new font.

That's a font and a style that dyslexics can read.

It makes it so much easier, Sean, to actually read it. The words are weighted on the page because a lot of times, if you have a learning challenge, the words float or letters float or you leave a word out. This allows you to anchor your eyes.

Henry, it doesn't matter. You could put that book in a Big Mac, and Sean's not going to read. Okay? So it doesn't matter what you do.

No, I'll eat it.

But I just think it's so incredible that you've got the world famous dyslexia, and yet you're one of the most world famous authors that there is. That happened? And that you're a graduate of Yale and you have learning disabilities. It's so incredible what you've done your life, the longevity of your career, your ability to maintain relevance. Barry, was that your first Emy Award?

That was my first Emy. I won two daytime Emes, but that was my first night.

Yeah, but I mean, having so much success for so long and you're actually still escalating, there's still a peak now at this age. It's just so admirable what you have continued to do, maintained doing.

But I am It's not lost on me that this is my incredible life. I'm not kidding.

Yeah. I get your appreciation.

Yeah, it is sincere. I'm a believer.

Well, what's great is you come in. From my experience, you show up. You're the guy. You show up every day on set like it's a new opportunity. It's a new day. You bring great energy. You always want to laugh. You want to experience. You're very much in the moment at all times. You're one of those people. I love that about you.

I really do. Well, I'll tell you something. You dream about it. You're told you will never achieve. And then here I am in all these wonderful experiences. I'm overwhelmed. I'm over fucking overwhelmed.

I think when you lead with gratitude like you do, people are then drawn to you, and that's why you are a light that everybody loves and loves being around.

Through all of this, you've managed to have one of the most successful marriages in show business, which is no easy.

That's next Wednesday.

Oh, he's done next Wednesday. Oh, really?

Just till Wednesday.

Next Wednesday.

So we're making news. Hey, listen, you had a good run. You had a good run. But the kids are happy.

She's not going to hear this, is she? No. No, she'll never hear this. She's in another room. I could say anything I want.

But I've I'm crazy about Max and Zoe. I don't know Jed. I don't think. I don't think I met Jed.

Jed is great. I know Jed. As you know, I know Jed very well. He's a great dude.

It was a promise I made to Stacy. I never wanted to duplicate parenthood the way I experienced it. I'm just telling you that's true. I made a promise that I would be a different father. The lesson I learned there is a herd child is a powerful child. If they believe you're just listening, that they exist, it just helps them fly to the sun.

That's your next book, Parenting, a book about parenting. You should. You got those good advice at the beginning when you were talking about the kids and stuff, your kids.

I'll buy it and read it. Henry, we love you. We do love you. I love you. You've given Give us 60 minutes of your valuable life, and we really, really appreciate it. Please hug and kiss your entire family for us. You know what?

I'm so happy that you invited me.

It's long overdue.

I'm sorry it took this long. Each one of you individually is Very important to me.

That's very sweet.

Who's your favorite? Who's your favorite? My favorite. Who's your favorite?

Of these three?

Yeah, just tell me.

Okay, I'm writing it down.

Don't you misspec Show my name, God damn. We love you so much. We love you, Henry. I can't wait to come over for another yummy dinner. Continued success.

You're the best.

See you. Just remember, there is a seat at our table for each one of you.

I'm coming over.

And Sean, your hubby.

I know. I have to. I'm coming. Okay.

John, you haven't done it yet. I would love that.

You got to do it. It's going to have to be waffles and tuna fish, right? Yeah, exactly.

Together again. Is that all you eat?

Pretty much.

No, he'll eat anything. There's nothing to eat. Henry, send our love to your whole family, to all the kids, to everybody. We love you guys.

You know what? When you were here at our table and we had scoop bagels with melted cheese. They don't make that cheese anymore. No kidding. No. Altadina, stop making that cheese. It's never been the same.

Listen, Altadina, if you're listening, if you work at Altadina right now, the Fonds wants you to start making that fucking cheese again.

Listen up.

That white cheddar.

That's good.

All right, Henry.

All right. See you, pal. Love you. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you.

My best at home, everybody.

Okay. Bye, pal.

Bye.

If you guys got your act together, you might be able to live as successful and as warm and as nice a life as he has. Okay? Yeah. Just mind it.

But the gratitude thing is big. I remember walking down the street in Beverly Hills or West Hollywood or something, and there was a deli. I was walking into a deli, and he was walking out. That's how I know it's all real because he's exactly how he is in life as he was when we were just talking to him.

He's like that with anybody. It doesn't matter who you are or what you do. He's interested in what you do. He's constantly talking to people. For 50 years, he's been a fucking icon.

That's what happy looks like.

Yeah, but it's surprising, though, because he's so recognizable. You would think that somebody had developed an ability, maybe even a habit, of seeming somewhat standoffish so that people didn't approach him. But instead, he's absolutely the opposite. It's remarkable.

It's amazing he was self-aware enough to be grateful about that success so early on.

Yeah. Then he found, arguably, even bigger success with Barry. Here, almost 50 years later.

All the books that he wrote, what do you want to do to those books? Do you want to get them? You want to lease them? What do you want to do? You want to You want to lease it?

You want to rent it?

Do you want to buy the bugs?

Are you late for something?

Do you have to go somewhere? What are you doing?

Why are you always wrapping up so early? See, I was going to do it. Instead of an A, I was going to do a buy.

Oh, shit.

No. That's good.

You guys are flying home today, huh?

Yeah, we're on the same flight.

Oh, that's Sean. You're on it. All right. We're on the same flight. Love you both so much. And an official bye. Bye, everybody.

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Nancy's love story could have been ripped right out of the pages of one of her own novels.

She was a romance mystery writer who happens to be married to a chef.

But this story didn't end with a happily ever after.

When I stepped into the kitchen, I could see that Chef Brophy was on the ground, and I heard somebody say, Call 911.

As writers, we'd written our share of murder mysteries. So when suspicion turned to Dan's wife, Nancy, we weren't that surprised.

The first person they looked at would be the spouse.

We understand that's usually the way they do it. But we began to wonder, had Nancy gotten so wrapped up in her own novels?

There are murders in all of the books.

That she was playing them out in real life? Follow Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.