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Everybody, it's me, Josh, and for this week's by České Selex, I've chosen how Book Banning Works, which is an episode we released all the way back in 2012. But it's as pertinent today, sadly, as it was back then. I hope you feel inspired to go out and read a book that somebody didn't want you to read because you can enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know a production of.

I thought radio's howstuffworks. Hey, and welcome to the podcast, I'm Josh Clark. With me is Charles Savage Bryant, and this is stuff you should know. The Deep, Deep, Deep did my best anchorman move? Yeah. Get the papers all in order to read in the prompter. Why wouldn't it be great? I don't feel so funny these days, man. Well, we need to get the teleprompter right here to juice up your your jokes.

I agree. Everyone knows that. Right. We don't actually make any of that stuff up. We had somebody write the show and we read it.

This is a very, very well rehearsed, practiced, labored podcast.

That's right. I think this is the second of two good topics today. Yeah. Part one, asexuality. Part two, banning books. Yeah. What do they have to do with each other? Nothing, I thought I saw a common thread now that I've looked, I've forgotten it, but yeah, there is something discrimination maybe. I guess so maybe we'll find out it'll pop up.

Possibly it'll be like that pee wee secret word of the day. Oh, yeah. No, it was called. I think so. And the cat was cool. So you got to intro proper for this or Chuck. Yes.

Are you familiar with the last week of September? I am. You are. Yeah. Through before. Yeah.

It's after the third week and before the first week of October. That's exactly right. Yes. It just so happens that that very week is banned.

Book Week did not know that existed. Well it still today. It does. Yeah. Yeah.

I haven't heard a banned book week before. Uh no I have, I've seen like this subversive displays outside of B. Dalton booksellers. Right. You know, basically the whole point of it is it's like, hey, people have tried to ban these books, so make sure you read these because it means that there's somebody out there who doesn't want you to.

That's right. Hey, look what I've got. I've got To Kill a Mockingbird over here. Yeah, that's attempted. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. So the whole point of Banned Books week is to celebrate intellectual freedom.

That's right. Because there are people out there who would take that away from you if they could. Yeah, we know it. You go back and listen to some of our podcast. There's certain words that were bleeped out because the man has this under his thumb. Thanksgiving. Yeah.

Um, so I would strongly recommend it's coming up. By the time this thing gets released, we'll be in September. That's right. We should probably post something about being book week when it comes OK.

Yeah, September 30th through October six, actually. Um, so it's really the first week in October this year.

Oh, it's weird that they would put it the last week of October, the first week of October or last week of September. Yeah. Yeah. Well that was confusing for a second. Let's let's talk in books.

Man More than 11000 books have been challenged since 1982. Josh that's just since eighty two. They've been I was reading about The Catcher in the Rye. Um, it came out in Wow man. I wish I knew it came out in the either the late fifties or the early sixties. The late fifties or nineteen sixty because in nineteen sixty a teacher who assigned it to his class for reading got fired. Really? Yeah, um, it's one of my favorite books, is it?

Yeah, and it's one that I've read several times over the years and it always takes on a little different meaning, depending on my age, which is interesting. Have you read the catcher's companion?

No, that's we got that as a gift, right? No, I have already explained it.

It's just like footnotes and extrapolation explanations, like this guy went in to catch the world of Catcher in the Rye and like, made footnotes of the whole thing. I definitely it's actually thicker than The Catcher in the Rye in 1951, by the way. OK, so 51 is nine years. Somebody lost their job because they assign that book to read. Wow. That's pretty common. Usually with, um, book banning, it comes out of, um, the public school system.

Um, yeah. And like a library, so. Right.

Well, it's usually school libraries, no less a public public library.

So if you go on the Internet and you look for banned books, you're going to find a lot of, um, uh, confusion.

There's this body called the American Library Association. Yeah. And a lot of people think that they're in charge of banning books is absolutely the opposite of the truth.

The American Library Association is a it's it's basically the librarians lobby. Yeah. And they are committed to no censorship whatsoever.

Yeah. Ask any librarian and they're going to probably be in favor of not banning books. Right.

As a matter of fact, the Alé maintains the library bill of Rights. And in this library, Bill of Rights is a provision for the free access to libraries for minors, which basically says this.

We have a bunch of books that we're not going to make any judgments on. If we have a book that you don't want your kid to read, it's your job as their parent to monitor what they read and you can decide what they read or not write you. That's it, right? Your opinion doesn't extend to anyone else's kids. So that means that if you want to ban a book, we're going to tell, you know, because you're responsible for your child, but not everybody else's child, too, which means ensure that the athlete doesn't censor books.

Right. Which is a big deal because this happens a lot.

There's 11000 challenge, as you said, since 1982, since 1982.

And I think there were in 2011, there were three hundred and twenty six challenges last year.

A few of these are the Color of Earth series, uh, by Kim Dong Hwa and the reasons why nudity, sex education, The Hunger Games trilogy. Yeah, my mom's having a baby, a kids' month by month guide to pregnancy, but we certainly don't want our kids to learn anything about that.

No, especially not with mom.

Uh, brave new world by Huxley. Insensitivity, nudity, racism. Yeah. Um, To Kill a Mockingbird. Like we mentioned, Harper Lee's classic because of offensive language and racism. And those are just a few of the nine I'm sorry, ten most challenged books of last year. Right.

You'll also find in just about every list, the most challenged series since 2000 is the Harry Potter books.

Yeah, they received Zaytoun Three Thousand Challenges. Um, and that was from up to, I believe, like two thousand eight or nine, maybe two of twenty ten. They from 2000 to 2010. Yeah. They received three thousand challenges and it was because it had satanic overtones or undertones of the two that's helped or midterm people challenging it felt at least.

So for the most part, when you see a book being challenged or banned, it's because people are concerned about its influence on children. But as you see, the American Library Association says, Hamen kids, kids, there's there should be free access to information for kids.

Yeah.

Judy Bloom's Forever is one that's always on the list, too, for that reason, because it deals with a young girl's burgeoning sexuality and the confusion and the awkwardness and the thrill that comes along with that. And that one isn't.

Well, that was a great description, was it, from a forty one year old man with the beard? Well, that was fourteen once.

Girls and boys are all like, you know, we were all scared and awkward and thrilled.

So how do you how do you do this, man? How do you how do you issue a formal challenge to a book? And what does that consist of?

What does it mean? It means that you have gone to a library. A single library. Yeah. And said, I want to challenge this book and the librarian decides whether or not to ban it.

So it's as simple as that. That's a book banning works. Um, and you don't even have to use such lofty language. Like, I want to issue a challenge. You can just say, like, this book needs to be taken out of this library. This book is filth. Um, this book is pervasively vulgar. That's a big. And the librarian at that moment decides whether a book gets banned or not. And for the most part, they they air on the side of not banning them.

But when they say, OK, let's take that book out, that book has just been banned. So it doesn't mean that a ban that a book has been banned. It doesn't mean it's been banned across the country, although some some countries have like banned books in its entirety countries entirely. But in the U.S. and in the modern world, it usually means that somewhere in the United States, there's a group of people, whether it's kids in a school district or kids, people who are served by a public library, who don't have access to certain books because one person found it offensive and convinced the librarian to to make the decision for everybody else based on that person's objections.

That's a banned book. Yeah.

Person or persons. A lot of times it's a group put together with, like a list even, and they'll rally the troops and say, you know, come on out from your your homes and let's get together and submit a list. And the librarians, like you said most times, will say no because they generally have the courts on their side if it gets to that point. Yeah, for the most part, the courts like to defend the right, you know, the First Amendment.

Yeah, but I mean, think about that pressure, especially if you are a school librarian and the school board is telling you, like, hey, don't forget we employ you and we're telling you. Sure, remove this book and the librarians like no TSA. That's that's against the First Amendment. Yeah. Um, so. To talk about some of the laws, I think we should let's talk about do you want to talk about the history of it?

Yeah.

Who wrote this one? I think this was Konger to. No, I don't think so. Oh, no. Yeah, it was a freelancer.

OK, you know, basically, since the days of Socrates, they've been trying to ban teachings of some sort of the other. He was heavily scrutinized. And back then, if you wanted to ban something, you just burned the few copies of it that existed. Right. And it's no problem. He was made to drink hemlock for what he was.

Yeah, but yeah, like, if there's two copies of a book in existence and you get both copies and you set them on fire, done problems are considered banned. And then what happened? What came along?

Well, the printing press and all of a sudden you had to officially try and ban a book because there were too many to gather up and burn.

And you remember the Star Chamber starring Michael Douglas. Did you ever watch that? No. OK, they were the real star chamber.

Did you? There was a real. Yeah. OK, so the real star chamber that was, I think, created in Stuart, England. Um, Stuart, er England. Oh man.

I probably shouldn't even say that because I'm not sure I really in England in the 17th century, there was a group of judges that were in charge of like they were like the elite judges, they were the censor board.

Basically I was one of their roles. And then Henry the Eighth came along and got rid of them. Right. But he started his own kind of censorship with licensing laws. They basically said that the state had the opportunity to censor things before they were even published. So that was one of the earliest forms of straight up book banning book censorship. It happened a long time ago. Yeah, sure. 1982 Board of Education, Island Trade School District Veeco.

Yeah, that's a mouthful.

They said basically that you couldn't remove library material just because, like, a school official doesn't agree with the ideas.

They said the books on their list were, quote, just plain filthy and they wanted them removed.

Yeah. Some people said now we're going to sue you for that.

Well, the Supreme Court said so. Basically, it has to be pervasively vulgar, I guess, is why they use those words. Yes. That's what they can actually ban a book if who finds it that like is there a I think society basically. Oh, that's easy to figure.

Well, for the most part, as far as books go for banning a book are really tough to do as once it reaches the Supreme Court, they're going to be like, no, it's a book.

Put it back. It's obscenity that's not protected. Right?

Well, because the kicker there is the the number three rule that they decided, you know, should be used to to determine if something is, I guess, filthy was it could contain no literary, artistic, political or scientific value. And that's the one where, you know, you can pretty much say claim any book has value like that.

That's how we have hardcore pornography still. All right. So you can say this is art. That's true.

Hey, everybody, it's your pals, Josh and Chuck, and we are here to tell you that the good people at Stanley, Black and Decker are celebrating the makers of the world, the men and women who build the world, who make, fix and create the world. Aren't they, Chuck?

That's right, because October is maker month in Stanley. Black and Decker wants to take this time to recognize and honor the people and these skilled trades profession.

Yeah. Did you know that right now there are 10 million global manufacturing jobs and three million trade jobs that are unfilled right here in the U.S. due to the skills gap? So there's no better time than now to consider a career in manufacturing or the trades. That's right.

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So that that case, that 1982 island freeze case or Pekoe case, I don't know what they call it, that was a really big deal because it takes place in a school library.

And, um, it basically the Supreme Court said school libraries are special places. Schools are places of inquiry. Yeah. And so they're a repository of knowledge, meaning their library. Right. Has special protection. Like we understand that you're worried about the children's minds being corrupted, but you don't get to decide that like this is information that's out there. And as long as it's basically not like hardcore pornography, child pornography, obscenity like it should, it has every right to be in there under the First Amendment.

I mean, it was a big deal.

It was a big deal. So as 1988, I remember this one because I was on a newspaper staff at the time.

Oh, yeah. And I got interviewed for the news. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I like the local news came out Hazelwood School District v. Kollmeier. Um, that was very famously when newspaper high school newspapers basically were said to not have the same rights as like if you were an adult running a newspaper.

Yeah. And it was not a form of public expression. So schools could in the end kind of censor what was going in these things, at least in the school curriculum.

I thought it was in the paper, in the paper, too, I'm sorry, yes, in these things. Meaning libraries. Yeah, no, no, no. Sure. But it was extended in the classroom curriculum, too, like that, which was a big deal. Yeah. Did you read that article about Texas?

Yeah. Let's get to that. You want to. Yeah.

OK, so Texas has this very controversial textbook review committee that wields a lot of power because textbook Texas is the biggest textbook buyer in the country.

And so if you're a textbook manufacturer and one state is ordering most of your textbooks, you're just going to print one and send it to everybody.

Yeah, it's basically Texas and California are the two states that wield the most power because they spend the most dough, because they have the most school aged kids, basically. Right, exactly.

So they basically say what Texas decides goes in their textbooks, goes in the textbooks for a lot of other states as well. Not just Texas, right? Yeah, I looked at the expense of a textbook. And I think one of the manufacturers said something like several million dollars can go into a like a major biology textbook. Oh, because of like the illustrations and everything that goes into it. And they're like, we can't make one of these for Texas and one for other states.

Right. It's just everyone's going to get Texas's version of the truth. Exactly.

So Texas has this committee that is largely conservative. They're starting. And I think 2009, uh, basically held hearings on revisions that they wanted to see done to social studies curriculum.

These are elected people, too, by the way, which is important because apparently a lot of them can buy their way right on that list.

OK, so social studies, you've got history, sociology, economics and a lot of the stuff that they were adding in there were like, um, I guess kind of slanted everything toward a little more toward the idea that the founders of the United States were Christian. Um, that the, uh, the they one of the things they wanted to get in there was not just Martin Luther King's nonviolent civil rights protest, but the Black Panthers violent civil rights protests were another one.

Yeah.

And I mean, if you're a conservative, you're like, well, OK, I agree with a lot of what these people are saying.

The problem is, is what they were saying was that there's a liberal slant to academia and that they were taking it upon themselves to correct that by putting a conservative slant.

Yeah, one of the other amendments was to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures who inspired revolutions of the late 18th century in 19th century. And they said, let's replace them with Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin instead. Yeah, uh, another one in economics they wanted to add, Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, champions of the free market economic theory to the list of economists studied.

We talked about Milton Friedman in one where basically he used Chile as a laboratory for, um, Reaganomics before Reagan was president. The trickle down economics. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. And then one of the ones that was shot down by Democrat Mavis Knight wanted to introduce an amendment requiring students study the reasons for the founding fathers protecting religious freedom by not saying one religion is good above all else. And that was actually struck down.

They said, you can't put that in this book. Right.

She was a Democrat who introduced it. Yeah, it Republican conservatives said no.

Well, they, you know, basically vote along party lines. So the vote was 10 to four or whatever.

So it was a big deal on the five like it had it was one of those things that kind of went underreported and underestimated. But there's a really good documentary out there that came out and I think 2009. May 2010. Yeah, The Revisionaries. Yeah. And I think it's up on Netflix streaming right now.

It is Scott Thurman. Yeah. And I was I was a trailer but it looked pretty good and I mean it was a big deal. It's not just like, uh, some people in Texas want to change some textbooks. It's like has national implications. Right.

It's an info war, basically. And that's what book banning is based on in a lot of ways as well.

It's like if you can remove a different viewpoint, especially when when it's being presented to kids. Right. Then you can keep that viewpoint from taking from germinating in there and their emerging mind. Yeah, a world view. Absolutely. And so books like Daddy's new roommate gets banned. Yeah. About a boy whose dad has a new boyfriend. Now he's a divorced dad and his new roommate moves in. Is gay. Yeah.

And Sarah Palin herself asked for that to be removed from the library when she was the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska. Oh yeah, I remember that. And that guy came out and said, that woman is my mortal enemy. Really. That was his response.

And thanks for the press, is what he should have said, I guess. In the meantime, in Texas, uh, Mary Helen Berlanga has tried repeatedly to get Latino figures included in textbooks as role models for the large Hispanic population in Texas. Right. And she's been repeatedly denied to the point where in 2010 she stomped out of a meeting saying they can't just pretend this is white America and that we don't exist. These aren't experts. These aren't historians.

They are just rewriting history.

So pretty hard words. Yeah.

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Straight shot, no chaser. What Tesla figural on the radio app. Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. You wanna hear some other challenged authors, let me, because there's there's challenges all over the place, apparently Judy Blume, of course, Robert Cormier or Cormier. Uh uh, did you ever read I Am the Cheese when you're growing up? No. Or the chocolate war? I think I read that one. Great books banned many times.

J.K. Rowling, she is like I said, she is, I guess, of the devil because a lot of people have a problem with the Harry Potter books.

Um, Katherine Patterson Bridge to Terabithia. Mm. Stephen King. Maya Angelou. Can't have any of that.

Yeah. The Alabama State Textbook Committee said that. I know why the caged bird sings. Yeah. Encourages bitterness toward white people.

R.L. Stein, who is sort of like a Stephen King for kids. Yeah. Goose bumps. Yeah. And I think I actually worked on one of his little TV shows, The Nightmare Room. Oh, yeah. It was a nightmare. I think so.

Uh, yeah. Back in the day. And John Steinbeck, of course. Yeah. In 1989 of Mice and Men was banned in Chattanooga because Steinbeck was well known for his anti business attitude. And then Alvin Schwartz, who was number one, and he was one of my favorite sets of books, scary stories to tell in the dark. Really. I never heard of this. Oh, man. They were tough. Gary, with the most ghastly illustrations you've ever seen.

They're awesome.

And are those being just because they're scary and ghoulish?

I guess so. It's probably satanic, too. Gotcha.

Um, so we were talking about how if if a book is challenged, um, it's probably if it gets to the Supreme Court, Supreme Court, it's probably going to rule in favor of the librarian who said no.

Yeah. Um, but that's not the case with obscenity, like obscene literature, like it is specifically excluded in US case law from First Amendment protection. Yeah. And that's kind of emerged over the years.

Um, starting in 1873 with the Comstock laws, it basically said, like, you can't sell obscene literature in interstate commerce.

Right. And then people are like, OK, well, then we won't or don't enforce it or whatever. And it just kind of went enforced or unchallenged for like three quarters of a century. Yeah. And then in the 50s, you had, um, Roth versus the United States, where all of a sudden we're like, wait, we need to start explaining what obscenity is because you can't just say this, just whatever.

Right.

That's what they started as the like in the fifties. They basically said obscenity. Pornography basically is what that means, um, has utterly or is utterly without, um, social value. That was a big quote. So that basically was a mark against anybody who's pro obscenity, right? Right. And then in the 70s, there was one called Miller versus California.

And this guy basically sent out a mass mailer, Chuck, of an advertisement for his adult magazines. Oh, yeah. So everybody got them right. Old people, kids, housewives, businessmen, everybody who went to their mail that day opened it up. And like there is like basically obscene advertising. Right. And so California arrested the guy and went to trial and the Supreme Court said, OK, um, yes, obscenity is not protected, but we need to say what obscenity is.

And they came up with this three point test called the Miller Test. Yeah. Which is, uh, is that one prong you're talking about?

Yeah. The third one is no, no artistic merit, basically, uh, literary, political or scientific value, which is probably the terms that they nailed this guy for. Yeah.

You know, if it was just a flier of, like, pornographic ads. Right. He couldn't really say, no, this is literature. Right. OK, check these out.

Um, the other two were involve patently offensive sexual conduct or appeal to prurient interest when taken as a whole. There it is. That's all connected. A sexuality that. Yeah, but the big point with those, Chuck, is that the the prurient interest is local.

So basically, like, if everybody in your town would be offended by this. Yeah. Then that's the local judgment. That's for that standard. But then the scientific artistic literary standard is national. Right. So, like, if your town thinks it's science but your town doesn't know what he's talking about, that's not a standard. Right.

Right. So that's obscenity. That's absolutely.

But the good thing is, is like if you are trying to ban something as obscene, the burden of proof is on you to prove these three. This thing passes all three points of the Miller test.

That is true. And that's a tough, tough burden to get passed. And court is tough. I'm surprised that more book banning fans aren't trying to infiltrate the library community.

You know, I'm saying I think they do constantly. Oh, you mean library librarians? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, if that's where the power is, I think the librarians like really like the library industry. Yeah, it's very powerful. And like if they find out that you're you're a wolf in sheep's clothing, they'll kill you. Boy, if you ever talk to librarians, Chris Paul here is the librarian.

They're really passionate, passionate people. It's almost like a public service in a way.

Yeah, because I'm sure they don't make a lot of dough and they just all really believe in knowledge and protecting protecting their freedoms.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah. Go librarians.

Yeah. Go give your local librarian a pat on the back today. Yeah. Give him a hug, ask him first and then give him a hug. And if they say no, don't give him a hug, just shake their hand and politely nod. Yeah. Maybe a curtsy and. That's great, Chuck. Yeah, I like the curtsy. Yeah. All right. Well, if you want to learn more about banned books, we suggest you go to the Alé site.

Uh, it's, uh, I believe Ali Dotcom. And then you can also write in banned books in the search bar at HowStuffWorks dot com. And it's going to bring up this, uh, really great article. Finally, it's time for listener Matt.

Josh, I'm going to call this Disco Fever from Diane in Kentucky, OK, hey guys, your disco episode brought back fond memories for me in the summer of 1978. I was in my early 20s and it just made it from the sticks to the big city, New York City. It's a big city. I had very little money.

The city's infrastructure was crumbling in this kind of what we pointed out, you know, the bad economy.

And I was separated from my boyfriend by a continent, a bigger obstacle in those days before cell phones and the Internet and reasonable airfares like that was back when a long distance relationship was like serious. You know, um, remember those days like, is it long distance? I don't talk too long. It's long distance, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Now it's like. Yeah. I forgot about that. Or ten, ten to twenty or whatever.

Like certain times of day or cheaper or something. No. There's like a number you could dial. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like real cheap. Long distance. Yeah I remember that. Ten, ten to twenty eight.

I was questioning the decisions I had made in my life and it's pretty much a struggle for me. But I had this go. I would go with a guy friend to a place on Third Avenue that was more or less the equivalent of an Applebee's with disco music and a dance floor, complete with disco ball. It certainly wasn't what you would call a discotheque or a cool place by any stretch of the imagination, but she was broke and we could order the cheapest thing on the menu and spend the whole night dancing.

I was completely oblivious to any social or cultural implications of the music, but just knew that it was cheap entertainment and so much fun. Yes, the lyrics were silly and the beat was rather unimaginative. But coming off the era of Vietnam, Watergate and a plethora of social upheavals, that was the great part of the appeal. Dancing to disco and laughing at the lyrics was play.

It was easy to learn the moves and much for her, not for me, and much more fun than the mindless dancing which attended rock music, which I like to listen to. But let's face it, dancing to rock music. It's pretty boring pretty fast.

I don't know if I thought it was the best disco song, but one of the most fun and exhilarating and insanely silly for me was Donna Summer's MacArthur Park still brings a smile on my face just thinking about it. I didn't know Donna Summers did MacArthur Park. They had to listen to that. And that was Diane Rally in Louisville, Kentucky. So glad we could bring back some good memories there for you. Yeah. Thanks a lot, Diane. Thanks.

And we heard from a lot of people who are like guys. You're saying that if I hate disco, it's because I'm homophobic. Don't be stupid. No, we didn't say that specifically. We said if you hate disco outright with the burning passion, but for no real reason, you can't really tell why it's getting to you like this. Maybe it's time to step back and examine it. We also said that there's plenty room for people who just don't like disco, just don't listen to music and it doesn't mean you're homophobic.

So, of course, lighten up and listen more clearly. If you want to get in touch with me and Chuck, you can tweet tweet to us, you twit. Um, to CSK podcast. You can also join us on Facebook dotcom slash. You know, you can also read us the riot act via email to stuff podcast, HowStuffWorks dot com. Stuff you should know is a production of radios HowStuffWorks for more podcasts, My Heart Radio is at the radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Her with the Menagh Brown is a weekly podcast brought to you by Cynical Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio. I'm your host, Amena Brown.

And each week I'm bringing you hilarious storytelling and soulful conversation, centering the stories of black, indigenous, Latino and Asian women. Each week we are going to laugh, consider and reflect upon the times. Join me as we remind each other to access joy, affect change and be inspired. Listen to her with Amina Brown on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

Her with The Brown is a weekly podcast brought to you by Cynical Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio. I'm your host, Amina Brown, and each week I'm bringing you hilarious storytelling and soulful conversation, all centering the stories of black, indigenous, Latino and Asian women. Each week we are going to laugh, consider and reflect upon the times. Join me as we remind each other to access joy, affect change and be inspired. Listen to her with Amina Brown on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.