Coming up, how are round three of the NBA playoffs almost over? Jesus. That's next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where I have new rewatchables coming for you. On Monday night, we did fast times at Ridgemont High. It is going to be available on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. So you can watch it or you can listen to it on any platform. I hope you listen to Prestige TV podcast. Over the weekend, I did a podcast with Julia Lippmann because we have no prestige shows to talk about. So we talked about the 30th anniversary of the best two parter in the history of Beverly Hills 90210. Certainly not a prestigious episode, but we made a lot of jokes. We had a lot of fun. So go check that out on the Prestige TV podcast. Coming up on this podcast, Ryan Rosillo and I are going to talk about a round three of the NBA playoffs that went sideways over the weekend. And now starting maybe even by Tuesday night, we're not going to have any more basketball heading into the second half of the week. Yikes. What happened? How did we get here?

It's all next. First, our friends from project. All right, tape this little port, 08:00 Pacific time. Just watched Dallas beat Minnesota. They're up three nothing. The Celtics are also up three nothing. And it looks like we're going to have Celtics nabs finals, barring one of the great comebacks in the history of professional sports. Where do you want to start, Rosilla?

We have to start with Dallas because this is the most impressive thing, I think, that has happened. Even though Minnesota taking out Denver, you're like, they're really going to go in there and beat Denver at their place in game seven. And then they do that. And yet here we have two teams that I do think are close, but just the mastery of Luca and we already know what's about to happen. I know we're going to talk about another pod today, but, you know, there's a reason why over the course of these years where I'm like, if you just want the ball in somebody's hands in the biggest moment, I don't know why you pick anybody other than Luca. And it's not just the maid. Three against Gobert in game two, he just, it feels like it's impossible when he's cooking and he just dropped and emptied the entire toolbox on this team again, there's all these different plays. There's a bunch of different reasons. This series is 30, but Luke is the best player that's still alive. We knew that when we ranked him coming out of it. And I just think it has to be a lot of praise for Dallas to start this, because this is so incredible.

Well, now it's starting to feel like the best player alive, championship belt is in play. Cause if Luca. If Luca keeps going here and then beats Boston in the finals, Jokic is like. He just. He just found a place for it in his living room, right, like, right above the tv. He just cleared a cabinet out. He just put it in there, and then he's like, wait, what? I'm losing this. If Luca went. If Luca pulls this off, he's going to be the best player in the league.

It's.

And it's crazy. Cause I'm the same person who said a couple of months ago, I thought the distance between Jokic and everybody else was as significant as. This is Justin Termini's point first, but as significant as anybody since LeBron in 2013. But you look at. You look at Dallas here, 16 and four to end the season. Eleven and four in the playoffs, getting better as the playoffs go along. And it's now hitting the point where you almost feel like they're like the freaking Yankees in the late nineties, where it's like, if this is a close game in the 8th inning, you're probably going to lose. This is how it's going to play out.

Yeah, let's do the belt thing. Can we hold off on that?

Yeah, well, we'll put it later.

I just feel like there have been a lot of belt transfers in a very short amount of time, and that's a topic in itself. But the closer argument's perfect because, you know, this is kind of by design, when everything's supposed to work out. It's like, okay, can you have two people that can get their own shots? In these impossible moments at the end of playoff games, when everything else is falling apart, do you have two players that can get you good looks? And, like, I would have never wanted to be in the Kyrie business. I don't think anybody pushing back into the time was wrong, even though that's kind of the way it plays out. But even tonight, there was a play where they were debating on the broadcast, like, what to do with Luca. Need more doubles, more the debate carry over at the end of game two against Gobert. And it just sounds better to be like, hey, double. He's got a double more. You got to keep two with him. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't be looking to just cheat off of somebody else. But it's not like Luca isn't going to figure that part of it out either.

He brought up Gafford for a screen and I was waiting to see are two going to stay with Luca off of the Gafford thing? Because Gafford, instead of lively is a downgrade for Dallas because he's not the passer that lively is, which is one of the most remarkable things about how this team is built, that this kid's a rookie and he's making like the right reads in big, big stakes playoff games. So as the screen is about to be set with Gafford, Luca knows exactly what he's going to do. He swings it to Kyrie, who, who kicks into PJ Washington in the corner. And PJ hits like one of the biggest shots of the game, that three.

And it looks like it was 104, 104 when that happened.

It looked like it wasn't really that big of a deal. And in reality, Luca was like, oh, you think you're going to, like, trick me?

Yeah.

So he doesn't even have to. You know, he's kind of in that gravity conversation of the curries and the jokic where even if you think he's not really impacting anything, he was 35ft away from the hoop. And that attempt to defend him, which he already could tell what they were going to try to do, was like, you guys are absolutely wasting your time. Cause I'm not even going to. The ball's not even going to be here by the time you guys come up and then you're going to be spread out behind me.

We talked about this in the past. I agree with everything you just said. The pick your poison kind of last level of basketball. Cause yoke is just like this, too, where the, the defense just kind of has to decide at some point. All right, what are, what are we good with? Because we're going to be giving up something. And the part of what I don't understand about what Minnesota's been doing this series is I would just want all the role players to decide the games. I'm fine with Derek Jones and PJ Washington and whoever. That's why I want with the, like when Jaden Hardy was in there for a lot of spots, just let those guys knock yourself out guys. Cause that's what they're doing on the other end with Edwards, they want all the, all the side guys to decide the game for Minnesota. On the Dallas side, Luca and Kyrie, like, you know, if, if you're going to stay home at these other dudes and just let those dudes go one on one, which they've done over and over again in crunch time in these three games, it just feels like you have no chance, especially the Luca part.

I don't know why go Bear came back in this game. Rosillo, and we'll have the whole Gobert conversation later, but I think the best lineup they had for whatever they're trying to do, the best they looked was when Nasrid was out there and there was a Nasrid. Kyle Anderson, Anthony Edwards, mcDaniels. I forget who the fifth was, but that when they were able to move and switch, that felt like the closest they were to solve in Dallas. Otherwise, I don't know what you'd do.

The problem is, I was with you, I was going, okay, cool, they're going to try something else because even when Dallas went small and then they brought Gafford back in, and then Powell gets minutes tonight because lively doesn't come back from the game. And that was a brutal knee to the back of his head. So you wonder what's going to happen for him the rest of the way. But Minnesota is still big when they're small, so you're going, all right, maybe they can. Maybe they can survive here. But the thing is, Bill, they didn't do anything with it. They didn't do anything with it. It was two Nas Reed attacks on Luca, which were fine, okay, he got him once, and then the other one was the foul, and then there was a weird Kyle Anderson late shot clock thing where that was happening a bunch. So when you looked at, like, Rudy when he came back in from not being in the beginning, they were actually minus two through all of it. And there's like this big Rudy thing where, you know, there's a lot of people that are respected, are really smart, and they'll throw this plus minus stuff that we've seen in front of you.

It's like he's actually had the best differential of any player on the Timberwolves. And I'll just go, I don't know, man. I don't know. I go, I'm not really sure that that's necessarily what I see. This isn't a Rudy problem game, by the way, so let me probably just stop myself there because I was excited about that, as you were. But Minnesota had 102 points at 554 left to go in the fourth quarter. All right.

Yeah.

They basically scored two points to close against a 13, one run, and then the last two points for the Edwards layup, so.

And the shots were awful. They were all into the shot clock, like, just stilted toilet bowl offense.

So there was some. There were some minutes in there where I'm thinking, okay, cool, like, let's see an attack. There should be space. They're going to space the floor. They're going to switch. I mean, they haven't really stopped this dallying Dallas closing group yet anyway, so let's try something else. And then Kyrie got right into the paint a couple times. So I think Finch was looking at it, going, all right, Lucas getting deeper. Kyrie want to drive? So they brought Rudy back in.

Yeah, we need a shotbacker.

But the problem is, is they didn't. They didn't get Luca into switches. They didn't bring Ann up. Maybe they're worried if McDaniels is setting the switch, then they'll just ignore him. And then to stay with ant, you know, there's a conversation there about, like, how much. How much do you set screens for ant? Cause you're bringing more traffic his way. But when they went small, they actually didn't do any of the things that I was excited about them potentially doing, is the point I'm trying to make.

I wonder why Denver couldn't unlock Minnesota the way Dallas has. And I wonder if rim protection well. But also, they went through last year. They're playing for eight and a half months, however long it was. Then this year, they got the big bullseye, and they talked about how they ran out of gas. Their role guys kind of disappeared. But when you watch what Dallas has been able to do in Minnesota and put their big guys in space, I wonder why Denver didn't do that more. I don't really know the answer. I'm sure they're watching this series going, damn. On the other hand, Luca and Kyrie had 66 tonight, and it felt like anytime they needed a big basket, they were getting it somehow. Like, the level of shot making, especially in the fourth quarter, was ridiculous, where it felt like Minnesota played almost perfect defense and Dallas would still hit a shot. There's a fun Luca Gobert thing I was actually looking up over the weekend after game two. Cause I was wondering, like, it really seems like Luca hates Gobert. What's this about? And I was, like, deep diving it, going through YouTube and stuff.

My theory, and I hope somebody asked Luca this. I think it dates back to the 2020 Olympics. Slovenia lost to France by one point. And it was. Remember the game? Batum had the block. He blocked somebody at the rim right at the buzzer in France, one by one. And in that game, Luca had Gobert and a switch for a second and Batum came over and he got rid of it. And the guy, he got rid of it, too, went to the basket and got blocked. And I wonder if ever since then, Lucas, like, I hate this guy. I'm just gonna. But there's been other stuff, like he's punched them a couple of times during games, like little sneaky go bear punches that it seems like it's not a punch, but it is little elbows. They've gone at it a couple of times, but there really seems to be a hop in his step for Luca going against Gobert, which I've enjoyed. I like the animosity in this series. I think it's been fun. And same thing with Edwards where he hit that point in the third quarter was like, fuck this, I'm not going down this way.

And just took over the game for like four minutes. But couldn't, couldn't keep it going.

No, because they had gotten Dallas into the bonus for like eight and a half minutes, nine minutes to go. And if you look at the free throws in that quarter alone, like, the game had slowed down and has this great stretch. He has the dunk, he has the turnaround, he has the bank, and you're like, okay, maybe he's actually going to do this because this is, this is what he saddled with the hope of like, hey, if you're going to be one of these guys, like, you have to be better than you've been in this series. And I have a ton on ant. That's incredibly disappointing. There's all these big moments where you're like, you just have to be better than this. And I don't know that there's necessarily a reason we could apply. You know, when somebody's middle aged and they end up playing below the standards, we never say, oh, he's middle aged. So I don't know if it's just youth. It's kind of the way basketball works and sports works. But the Luca part of it, I mean, he kind of gets into it with everybody. It's like that Clippers team with Doc and chris Paul and Blake and DeAndre and Austin Rivers was on the team.

They argued. They got into it with everybody. I remember one night we were trying to rank. We were like, okay, how many teams have they had a thing with? And I think Luca is almost the individual version of that Clippers team.

It's a good call. He's going to go over great in Boston. I can't wait for a finals with him arguing a 45 calls. He's so great, though, man. I. That stuff the thing. And obviously, he's been doing this forever, but to watch him do it on the biggest stage where the pace that he plays at when he gets the half step on somebody and then just keeps the guy on him almost like a hockey player. And once he has you on your hip, you. You kind of don't have an option because he'll just stop suddenly and then you're crashing into him. Right. You can't reach around. Cause they'll call a foul. He's too big to get around. And there, there's just. And then he's got that little. That little eight foot floater. He can stop. He can just go to the basket. He can then through the alley oop. And once he gets a step, watching him just use and abuse McDaniels, I thought was pretty interesting. You just get too much size for him, you know? Who the. Who the type of player to guard. Lucas Rosillo. I do feel like it's. It's a little nasridish, and I don't know why they haven't gone to that more because I think the Celtics, Tatum and brown, they're actually in pretty good shape.

They're not going to stop Luca, but they have the type of tall athletes that at least you're going to make a more. Get to his spots. But I don't know why they didn't try Nas Reed on him more. Because Nasrid was good on Yokic, too. McDaniel's is too small to me.

Well, he's too. He's not stout enough, so I would agree there. And he's always going to get a couple dumb fouls. He had the reach in that was silly. And then he had another one where it looked like he was just mad, but it didn't, I don't think, take away. I don't feel like he was playing defense as if he was in foul trouble. Cause that's the thing with McDaniels. Like, we can't fall in love with, like, how aggressive he is on Booker and the stuff he was doing with Murray. And then, I mean, we can always find fouls with he and Kat where you're like, what are you doing? But you kind of have to sign up for a lot of that if you're going to fall in love with, like, the physicality and the challenging and the reaching and trying to get away at, you know, just. Just slowing the other player down. But with Luca, it's entirely a different animal. The hockey player analogy is perfect. It's kind of like a tight end who ends. Ends up in the end zone with a corner on him where it's like, you may think you're defending me, but you're not.

Like, I'm just. I'm too big for you. And the craziest thing is, it's not about Luca turning the corner. It's just about him playing with all of this pace where he's watching it live. When I went to that Clippers game, like, I knew what to expect because I'd seen it before, but there'll be moments he's in the paint and everything stopped around him and nobody knows necessarily what to do. And it almost feels like it's easier. I remember Nash would actually have an easier time making layups because everybody was freaked out about what he was going to do, the ball towards everybody else. So you get that scoring part of it with Luca and the size and the touch. And then something Legler talked about with me, which I loved. He's so great at the late kick out. Yeah, you'll think, you'll think, okay, this drive is over. He's putting it up. Okay. Like that lobby had left to right to Gafford through all of those bodies. He had another drive in the first half where he's like, up on one leg, the shot is about to happen, and he just turns and gets it to the right corner.

I think it was a Jones three. You know, we look, we knew how special he was. I voted in the second mvp, so, you know, just by default, because I thought it was so close with all those players that I started just kind of dividing it by, like, who do I actually think is the better player of these players? And I only had one guy ahead of him, then there's a reason.

I don't know. There's one guy that I can remember in the last five, six years who I felt like actually did a really good job on Luca. This is a deep pull. And somebody mentioned this to me recently and I was like, oh, yeah, it was Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons did a good job on him. There's a couple bad Luca box scores against Ben Simmons teams, and I think that's the type of guy, I think it's got to be like six nine and strong and athletic, which, of course, there's four or five guys like that in the league. Ironically, Tatum is one of them. And I wonder if Tatum is when it's Boston Dallas, if that's going to be part of what Boston does is it's going to be Tatum and Jalen, but basically Tatum, fourth quarter. But then you're putting on all these defensive miles on Tatum. You're risking foul trouble with Tatum. You know, it's asking a lot. Yeah, it's asking a lot.

Maybe to close, maybe to close a.

Game and then Jalen probably for the first three quarters. But the great thing about this Jalen season is, is, you know, he's really accepted the defensive challenge and I think he's been genuinely impactful on defense and he's taken. There's been some of the better players in the league. Like there was that Zion game he had this season where he's just like, okay, I got it. I'm going to take this guy. So they have two really good guys to throw at him, but then you bring the Kyrie piece in it, and that's another pretty solid spot for Boston where they have these two really, really excellent defensive guards that they can at least throw at him and make him make some shots. He'll still make them. It doesn't really make, you know, I don't know if anyone's shutting down Kyrie when he's like this. The crazy thing about it, I don't feel like he's played at this level, really for like six or seven years. Like, with the speed, the decision making, the shot making, combined with what he's doing defensively, because the defense is where he really went sideways and really seemed like a liability, especially like that Brooklyn Celtic series, remember two years ago?

As that went on, it just felt like they started hunting him. And that's one of the things. I know he's been putting up points, but I've been really impressed by the all around stuff with him. It's an incredible redemption story. Somebody I gave up on as a basketball star.

I'm not saying there's nothing that compares. Go ahead.

No, I'm just like. Other people ran. I'm not saying because I gave up on him that matters, but I'm just like. I just didn't think we would see a two way performance like this from him at this stage of his career. I'd kind of given up on it.

It might matter to him to hear you say that.

Kyrie, at a press conference. Hey, now, I heard Bill Simmons, he's reconsidered some of his thoughts. I just want to say that means a lot.

He. He had two plays. The. The shot he hit left handed going right to left, and ant actually gave it a decent contest.

Yeah.

And it was off his left hand. And my favorite thing about the Kyrie offensive explosion. Cause I even think against Oklahoma City, it was being a little overstated. Cause I felt like he was. He was actually a little too passive in that series.

Yeah.

Um, for. For long stretches. Cause I would look at the stuff he was turning down, uh, which we've already covered. But then there was a moment where it was like, okay, wait. You know, they're really gearing up. Like, Minnesota, I felt like, had two. Had these two, like, peak output defensive stretches. One was after the ant dunk, and then there was another one there in the fourth quarter where they were trying. I mean, they were trying their hardest. And then for Luca to have the luxury just to throw it to Kyrie, and he turned the corner that was made at 111, 105. And at that point, Minnesota had gone over four minutes without a field goal. So it's. It's absurd that you have somebody like Luca, but, you know, this is. The whole part about Dallas is like, we're saying this now. How come we didn't believe a little bit earlier? I didn't realize that Jaden Hardy would come in and give him great minutes. You know, we're talking about, what do you give up? And I would agree with you. I'd probably want to shrink the paint and. Or collapse the paint, whatever you want to say, and leave the corners.

And then Oklahoma City saying, yeah, yeah, that's what we tried to do. And then PJ Washington turned into an all star. And then Derek Jones had his massive game. So all of this has worked, and the lively gaffer part of it, and, I mean, exum, who was actually like a nice little piece for them, hasn't even been needed. And Hardaway has been like nothing. Even though he's back and healthy. It's. It's just incredible how much this come together. Yeah. I mean, he played the other night, but you don't even notice him out there, so I don't think he got out there today.

Yeah, the.

The other thing. Go ahead.

Well, just. You mentioned the Derrick Jones thing. He was. They. Him and Washington were five for seven from three in the first half. Right. These are. These are guys that are in the low thirties, usually as three point shooters. And those guys have come through, and that's part of playoff basketball. Right. You just. Certain guys rise to the occasion. The crowd, the spotlight, the energy, and. And they targeted those dudes, and those guys have shown up. I watched Eric Jones for years, and I don't know how many teams he was on never really stood out. It was always like, oh, yeah, he's seems like a fairly interesting defensive guy, but wasn't somebody that I thought would be hitting huge shots in a conference finals.

No, no. I mean, the thing is, because of the Luca part of it and because of having to make sure you're paying attention to what side Kyrie is on, there's just a lot of open shots to. To ask a defense to go, hey, make sure. Make sure we're switching or make sure we're blitzing. I thought Minnesota did a better job extending the pressure out to them, but Luca just figures it out. And if Kyrie's coming off of that, if two were on the ball and Kyrie's able to get the ball four on three with his speed. So it's, it's come together, man. It really has. And it's, and it's. I was wrong that I thought, you know, Minnesota and Denver was the NBA Finals because I didn't know that Dallas was going to take it to this level. I know these games are all close and there's other stuff that I want to talk about, but I'm. I'm kind of in awe of what I've seen this team do, especially to close threes. You figure just the law of averages. They'd have a clunker to close in one of the three against Minnesota's defense, and it hasn't happened.

Yeah, you figure? Game one, it's. I think Minnesota's up with two minutes left. Game two, they're up five with 90 seconds left. And over and over again, Dallas defense just stepped up and then Dallas would make shots. And it got to the point where in game three, like I said earlier, you just felt like if that was going to be the situation again, Minnesota was screwed. This is something that has evolved. I feel like Dallas figured themselves as a team during that Clipper series, you know, and now looking back at that OKC series. Cause I thought OKC was right there that whole series. And that, as I said last week, I thought that came down to a couple rebounds and a couple shots. But now I kind of respect the OKC team even more. Cause they were throwing haymakers and Jalen Williams wasn't even playing that well. And they stayed in that series and it was a six gamer.

I mean, that's true because, I mean, think about it. PJ's not fouled in the corner. Who knows? OkC wins game six, maybe Jalen Williams, they've got game seven at home and we're going, oh, man, Dallas is going to be sneaky, interesting team next year, you know, but instead they're up 30 on a team. I figured after the Denver series is the best team remaining in the NBA.

What's. We'll take a break and we'll talk about the Minnesota side of things. So we're still in the pre game show. I don't know if you saw it.

I didn't.

But one of the guys on the set said some guys had to step up.

It was a new.

It was a new thing. Can't remember hearing that before. And I think it was Shaq who said he'd like to see Anthony Edwards and Carl Anthony Town step up.

I would like to see it. I agree with him.

Anthony Edwards kind of stepped up. Town stepped backwards and down. He stumbled down. It's. What's the opposite of a step up? A stumble down. It got to the point I was teasing house at halftime that he was going to be in the Wizards next year. House didn't like it. There was some unprintable text that returned. Towns was just awful. Just awful. And who I, for two and a half games, just looked like his superpowers had been. The plug had been unpolved. Then all of a sudden, he found the superpowers again. But it was a little too, little too late. What are you seeing?

Well, the series could be summarized with this. I mean, coming out of game one and two, you had, here are the differentials. Ant and Cat were 21 of 69. Luca and Kyrie were 41 of 88. So that's 20 more makes from the four best guys on the Dallas side. You're going to lose. Like, when I see that kind of thing, I'm like, I'm shocked. They were in both of those games and threw them away. Today, it was six more makes for that side of it. So it actually, like, somehow improved. Um. Let's just do the cap part first because it's easier. He's not that good. He's not that good. Um, we know he can stretch the floor a little bit. This best shooting big man thing is so fucking stupid. He takes four game, um, his drives against lively or, like, golfing with somebody who's never golfed before, and you're like, where the fuck are you aiming? Like, oh, right over there. Like the flag. Like, that's the american flag that's at the clubhouse. The flag is over. Is over there. He. He actually got a little bit better on the drives today when lively went out.

But I went back and looked at every shot attempt he had, and believe it or not, there's I thought it was going to be worse going into it. There's more good shot attempts and bad shot attempts. He was handed a lot of shot clock grenades in the first two games, but the drives themselves are pointless. They're just pointless. And you can see what he's doing. He's like, but might as well drive. And then when everybody went small and he was still in, maybe gaffer was back at that point, he couldn't post Kyrie and it led to a turnover. He lost his positioning against Kyrie. So he is a huge part of the problem. But the biggest problem is that ant isn't even close. So I expect that from kat. I don't expect ant to have this. These, I should say these many bad moments, which we can go to here. Like, what do you think is when you see ant right now? Like, where are you with it?

I'm going to sound like I'm making excuses for him, like I'm related to him, and I don't mean to sound that way. I think the playoffs are really hard. I've been on a lot of tanks. Cause people know that I like Edwards and just like, what's happening? Your guy getting a lot of the playoffs are hard. He's 22 years old. It's the third round of just a whole level of basketball and intensity and energy. And the only reason I mentioned this is cause I watched it happen to Tatum two years ago. And I'm watching Tatum in these playoffs two years later versus what was happening to him as the third and fourth round of 2022 went on. And it's weird. Like, cut the playoffs kind of for young guys, they kind of break your brain if you're not ready for it, if you haven't been through it, if you don't understand it. The only way I can compare it, and again, I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for ant. I'm not. The only way I can explain it is it's like a boxing match when you see this guy who's never been, like in the old days when we had the 15 round fights and it was the guy I was the first time, I was like, oh, man, 50 round title fight.

Man, these extra three rounds are awful. I can't believe this. This last nine minutes. I never, never knew it was like this. Like, you're just not conditioned for yet. And that's what I see with him. I don't like he was so tired and so out of it in game one and then game two, it felt the same way. He just didn't have the same energy. So they did all the stuff they did for him today where they're trying to put him, hide him on, you know, non scores. They're having other people bring the ball up. It seemed like a whole bunch of things to just try to have him have energy in the second half. So it sounds like an excuse, but I just think there's a reason 22 and under guys have not won four straight playoff rounds that that it's that unusual. It's basically magic Johnson. And Magic Johnson was not somebody who had the ball all the time. He was on a team with Kareem, who was the best player in the world. So, you know, two years from now, is he going to look like, is he going to get to round three and just look like he has no power left in his battery?

I don't think so.

I agree with a lot of what you said because it's usually the way it goes, which is what made it so exciting with him and the Denver series. You're like, wait, is this really going to happen? Like, when I was walking around getting ready for that game seven, I was like, is he really going to do this? Now? Granted, he went six to 24, so they didn't win because of him. But to come back against Denver down.

20, like, defense was incredible in that game, though.

Right, right. But still, you gotta be better.

He hasn't been impacting this series defensively. Like he impacted that game seven.

No, but they're tougher matchups, too. So I think the point, it isn't really making excuses. I think that was the excitement about him to be like, are we actually going to see a guy, fourth year in, 22 years old, take this kind of jump and like, maybe win a title?

Like, who, what is almost like a quarterback? Like, wow, this guy's just going to rip through the playoffs, guys, 22.

And I know I'm guilty of, like, thinking about, but even when I would get excited about it going, like, I think he can do it. I'd go, wait, like, you've been watching this league a long time. This isn't really what's supposed to happen. And so game one, him being tired, if you're 22, it's just not really much of an excuse. There's days off, I think the combination of the Kyrie part, but also he played so much point guard in game one. Like, I was going back and looking at it, I was like, all right, so he's bringing the ball up the entire time because they're worried about Conley's injury. And he had left the game today and then came back. He's actually been pretty steady for him.

And then he was game one, guarding. Guarding Kyrie for a lot of that game, too. Like, it was what they asked him to do in game one was. Was right.

Right.

I think stupid.

So then you look at the game one drives. Cause I was looking at every one of his. His shot attempts. He had one, like, touch in the paint the entire second half of game one. So you feel a little bit better about game two? Because I thought we saw some more aggressiveness, but then the turnover at the end is inexcusable. You can't do it. And I know people are on Finch's case for not calling the timeout to get Conley back in the game, and that's a fair criticism. I'm not saying it's wrong, but you also don't expect ant to throw it out of bounds. The spacing on that play was terrible. Go Bear has Gafford pinned at the rim. I think Nas and Kyle are to the left side, and they're actually, like, on top of each other in the corner, like they're getting ready to break out of an inbounds play. But then ant still throws it out of bounds. And then tonight, the drives were better, but he's been missing layups like crazy. He missed four straight layups that were good looks in game two. He had the missed layup when they were small, and he got the ball back, and he waited.

They had a timeout, and it's like, dude, what do you think's going to happen? This is closing time, a game. Three of the players that you got to get rid of the basketball or dribble out of there. And he lets himself get tied up. And though. Even though he won, that was weird. He froze the possession. Yeah, he completely froze. So those moments are, despite his greatness and what he was doing in the third quarter, it's. It's unfortunate, because I thought, like, with his personality, his attitude, and he's just, you know, this is not the guy staring down Kevin Durant saying, you're done, and I'm next. This is a guy that looks really uncomfortable in some big spots. And it's. It's disappointing for how great I think he is, but it doesn't mean any. It also means, like, okay, he's actually likely to go through the normal course of events for the great players in the league because a lot of these guys are already on vacation. Post on Instagram, and he's playing in the Western Conference finals, but he hasn't been good.

It still sounds like we're making excuses for him and we're not.

I don't care. I don't, like, look, if he sucks like this for three playoff, like, two more playoff seasons, all right, sign me up. I'll say I was wrong, but there's also an incredible joy with this because of the Jordan comps, which no one, like, no one sane was actually saying, I think this guy's going to be better than Jordan. It's just that he looked like him.

Well, I think what was so fun about the first series and a half was all the history we had with somebody at that age trying to do what he was trying to do, said, this shouldn't happen, it's impossible. And then he kept making it seem like it was possible, which was what was so freaking exciting about it. And guess what? It's really hard. You're 22 years old. But I'm telling you, we, we watched this with Tatum and, and I. Edwards. Maybe the ceiling for him as a player might be a whiff higher than Tatum just cause of, you know, as. As good as I think Tatum is, the ceiling Fred woods is. Don't you think? Like, maybe. Maybe a smidge higher as a star. But the all. Tatum went through all this in 2022 is my point.

I'm not going to let these, by the way, I'm not going to let these four games make me, like, go, oh, maybe this guy isn't going to be that good. I'm not there yet.

But the bigger issue is Towns is in his late twenties and they needed him in game two and they needed him tonight, and he sucked the whole series. And it's gotten to the point that when he drives to the basket, it looks like he's wearing somebody else's sneakers. It's like, what, did town's bring a sneakers? No, he's wearing some kid from the first row. He was a size 14. He's never worn these sneakers before. He's just. He just looks clumsy. He's missing wide open shots. I don't feel like his shots are going to go in. You know, and you think about how he played those first three quarters of the Denver game seven, where it was like, it felt like there was some sort of breakthrough for him. And now we've gone backwards to the point that, you know, we're probably going to be making up towns trades in a couple of weeks because the, the salary cap for them is outrageous, you know, and I don't know if it's sustainable to keep this team together and just be 75 million over the cap. And if you, if you think you can't keep towns, Nas, Reed and go bear going forward for the next few years on a small market team, like, you gotta figure out something.

But the bigger, the bigger question to me is like, I just think this is who he is. I don't know if there's a level up for him. And this is a reason we've spent so much time talking about him being like, what is this guy? Is he good? Is he not good? Is he the best shooting big guy in the league? Or is he somebody that just, you know, against when he's playing worse teams or lesser opponents, he looks great. But if you keep up in the stakes, he can't, he can't kind of hang on as the stakes keep going up. Cause he was a liability.

Then he got bench in game two.

And he got benched in game too.

Like, who are the Towns fans? Like who, who's fate? Who's like, my favorite player is Carl Anthony Towns, they need them on that.

That, I mean, they ran it a couple of times tonight when he sets the screen for Edwards and, and it's a little pick and pop and it's like, in theory that play should be unstoppable, but for whatever reason, Dallas, there's, it's not.

And by the way, because they already have Nas and we saw what they were without cat. Like, there was a fear, okay, maybe there just won't be enough offense. I mean, the irony of this Minnesota thing in the closing moments of these last three games is that it felt like this was a real problem for them during the regular season. We were like, you know, it'll be weird, though. What's the clutch offense going to look like? And then if you look at the clutch playoff stats, their offensive numbers are actually pretty good. The shooting numbers are pretty good. They just weren't in a lot of minutes. And I'd imagine those stats going to be dragged down again tonight. I mean, they were, they were brutal. I mean, they had like two points from like 554 in the first two games.

Yeah, the last three minutes they just. Turnover, miss, shot, turnover, turnover. It just was, was bad. And Dallas has a good defense. What's, what's interesting about Dallas Lucas, one of those guys that, in your head, you feel like he's a bad defender, but he's not. And his hands are around, he's tipping stuff. Like, I think he had five steals tonight. You know, and you, you wonder, like, at one point, Reggie Miller was asking why they didn't attack Luke. And it's like, I. I feel like they are trying to attack Luca. I feel like every team in the playoffs has tried to figure out how to attack him, but he's smart, he knows where to go and, and, uh, basically what he can't do. And very rarely do you see him 35ft from the basket, one on one. And if he is, they'll send a second guy out. Like they don't want to expose him. That was one of the things Minnesota just wouldn't do with go bear. But you think game one comes down to Luca makes a three, Nasrid misses the three, right. Um, I felt like they should have left, that they should have left Minnesota.

The series should have been tied one one. But instead, Dallas is up to nothing. And then tonight they should have won. But Dallas has been pulling these games out now for four weeks. And at some point, it's not an accident. At some point, every time you're in a close game, you win. It's not an accident.

Now, game two was the one that I had the hardest time with. Because you had the jaden play where he loses out of bounds. Because, hey, let's review it. That'll fix it. And instead we just waste everybody's time to make sure the call is extra wrong, but Ant can't throw it out of bounds. And you brought up something in the very beginning. We started talking about, like, I'm with you, Dallas, because it's ant only and there's. There's crowds everywhere. I do think when they had that small stretch there, I would have thought like, hey, bring Luca up, just see what happens against Ant. But I still think they would have just kept two with Ant and then ignored McDaniels and been like, fine, do you want to shoot a three? Because we don't know what we're going to get out of you. Any single night. Conley's going to hit a couple floaters or three, that's fine. We don't trust cat. Rudy can't catch. Rudy's only good with offense. If it is already decided before the catch that it's going to be a dunk. If there's any moment where it's like, okay, I have the ball now I have to figure out what to do.

It's a useless possession. Kyle Anderson is somebody they don't even really defend. Even though I think there were times in the series that I've liked when Kyle played against Luca. And maybe it should have been a not McDaniel's Kyle ant nas combo. But now I'm just making up shit. You know, I'm making up shit for a team that was. That just beat Denver by playing their way. But I felt like they were searching for it a little bit. It'd be interesting to see if they search a little bit more in four.

That's a really important thing you just said. I think teams, when they get this far in the playoffs and through the season and they get to round three, you become afraid to change who you are and what you were and how you got there. I even think Joe Maz was like this with Brissette, where it was clear that Brissette needed to play in this Indiana series. But Joe Maz, for eight months, the team is basically, you know, 73 and 20 playing a certain lineup a certain way. And it's like, I don't want to play Brissette. I like playing my guys. Like, Hauser's lost his confidence now, right? What do you do with that going forward? You can't just be like, here are my guys. This is what's worked for us. Like, you have to adapt and move as the series has gone along. And I think Minnesota was a little afraid to move away from Rudy, and towns is. Don't you think towns is one of those, oh, he doesn't have it, guys. I never. I feel like, you know what, towns, in the first quarter and a half, I don't know if it's coming back.

I have no proof, just eye test.

And by the way, my small. My small lineup, like, like, experiment theory, Luka would probably be, like, awesome. Cool. I'm just over paradise right now. Now it's so easy. So, like, I. I think your point, though, whether it's. It's interpreted as stubbornness, I think the coaches are always worried about losing somebody that's been important to what they've been doing.

But Minnesota bench towns all through the end of game, too, right?

Whatever he lost, if you're not losing.

Him at that point. Hey, on Luca, I went through this because the Omba teams came out, and I'm going to fight and fight and fight for them to put positions back last year, next year, because I thought that. I thought the awards were ridiculous. This year, the four centers on the first team, all defense, one of the dumbest things we've ever done. Like, let's try to at least make this look a little like basketball. So when I talk about all NBA, I'm comparing this year's voting to the history of the league. Anyway, Luca has made first team five straight years. And I was like, hmm. And I went through it and I was trying to figure out best streaks for first team Omba, which for some reason could not be googled. Stat muse, get on this shit. I was really banking on you. I do this myself. Karl Malone and LeBron James made eleven straight first team Ombas. Did you know this?

I knew Lebron did. I didn't know Carl Malone did eleven.

Straight first team on base. Like that's.

That's incredible.

That's more than a decade. That's. You have a seven year old kid, the first year of the streak who's graduated from college. By the end of that, Bob cousy and Bob Pettit made ten.

Well, I must have get a lot of AP credits.

Oscar, Larry bird, Magic Johnson, all nine in a row. Duncan and Kobe, eight in a row. Shaq, Michael Jordan, El Jebel are seven in a row. Giannis and Harden, six in a row. And then Luca, KD, Dwight and George Menkin, five in a row. All of those guys are like the greatest players in the history of the week. And Lucas, 24. And we were texting over the weekend about like, hmm, what does this mean if Luca just wins the finals? Where, you know, where, where does he stack? But, like, when you think of the all NBA resume, the fact that he already got to a conference finals with a team that really, when you look back, it's kind of crazy that they beat Phoenix at a game seven, ended up losing the Golden State in five. Just this career he's having and putting together, and he's still on the under 25 version of his twenties, and he's got the kind of game that I just feel like it's not like, what's he going to lose? Athleticism. I mean, the only thing you would worry about is, is he going to get bigger than he is?

Well, it doesn't even seem like his size. Seems like, weirdly an asset. You know, it's, it's, he's. It's almost a little like Jokic, where he's. He's big enough that it's more of a problem than a hindrance for, for him. And I think it's a problem for the other teams. So, you know, that I think, especially if we're going to have two sweeps and we're not going to have the finals until a week from Thursday, this is just going to be a nine day long Luca conversation, I think, over the Celtics. I think. I think Luca, where does he fit? Is he the best player in the league? Can he be one of the best players of all time. Like, all of these questions are going to start getting asked now.

You're right, it's going to happen, and it's already started to happen. And this is why I want to talk about the belt transfer. But before we do any of that, what I do like about this developing storyline with Ant and Luca, is the Luca part of this? There's like, all the things you wanted ant to be like, I did all these things already. Like, I didn't get to the Western Conference finals at 22, but I mean, he turned 25 in February, so he was only, what, a year off from that. So he was six months, maybe older, I think, than ant being in the Western Conference finals this year. So with the speed with which we move and kind of re ranking all these guys, which is, I think, like, I can become stubborn or I can seem stubborn or I don't want to, because I think the mistakes are made is when you're constantly changing everything every, like, on the latest outcomes. But, you know, when you look at Luka, the first year he's leading scorer as a rookie, they go 33 and 49. The second year they have that great series against the Clippers.

You're like, dude, this guy's going to. Right, 31, ten and nine. And then the third year he loses in seven to the Clippers and his numbers are 36, eight and ten. Like, those series were so much fun. And then the fourth year he's in the league Western Conference finals, they lose the Golden State. They didn't really have much of a chance. You look at his supporting cast of those teams, there's not much there. I mean, he's carrying that team, but they beat that awesome regular season Phoenix team the year after they had lost the Bucs finals, which again, we've been over that game seven plenty of times in the pod. Then last year's the year, things kind of fall apart. So I love the parallels of Luca getting through the west and maybe winning a title and being like, you guys were so ready to crown ant, which again, I'm raising my hand saying I'm fully guilty of, but, like, I just did all the things you were hoping ant could do.

Yeah.

And, like, there was never, there's never been. Aunt's had three games now in a row in this series where I'm like, what the hell's going on? And, you know, you can find a bad game in there with anybody, but Luca's not going to have three games in a row in the playoffs. You're like, what's wrong with him?

Yeah. Luca can still go seven for 20 in a playoff game and still seem like he's the best player and still be impactful in all these different ways. He'll still grab eleven rebounds, get nine, and says, do you see that stat they showed with the alley oops? And this was like, I think, in the second quarter where Dallas had 45 alley oops in the playoffs and the next highest team had nine.

It was the most.

They probably ended with 50. They said the most since, what, 22,001?

Yeah. So I was trying to write it down, and I was like, tnt, you have to, like, for the note takers, you gotta be slower with these graphics.

That was the coolest, because when I.

Saw it, I went, wait, what? Like 45? And then the next, it's like some wilt number. And then here is second place and his lobs. You know, I said, trey is probably the best, but Lucas size allows him to.

I would say it's jokic and Luca in the finals for the laps.

I think Trey's up there, man. Cause he does a really great job.

The Brooklyn Nets, Trey Young.

Trey's awesome with lobs, so he's. He's a tier one lobber. How about that?

Barclays own trey young. Well, the belt. You stop me?

No, no, because you. You did this before. It was.

I did it. I did all the work already.

Give us the belt. Transfer.

Yokoch has it now. We'll go back till 1970. Yokich has it now.

Oh, 1970. Hold on.

No, no, it's. It's gonna.

I'm gonna go to the bathroom. You come back.

No, it's gonna go fast. The year after Bill Russell retired.

Smart year. It's a good year to do it.

And the belt was vacant for a year after Bill Russell retired. We didn't know. There's a couple vacant years. I'm sorry. Then Kareem gets it in in 71.

The best player in the world. Best player in the world, Bill. Right. Okay.

Kareem has it unquestionably in 71. $71.01 of the best teams of all time. Wilt takes it back with the 72 Lakers. They had the 33 game winning streak. They win the finals. He grabs it back. Kareem then grabs it back. And cream has it for. Depending on how you feel about Rick Berry. In 1975, when Golden State, when they ran the slate, they won the title. He was 30 points a game. But I kind of feel like Kareem had this, really, until 76. Interesting belt piece here. Julius is in the ABA stringing together titles and I think Julius, even though he's in the ABA, has it in 76. I got to give it to him. Just watching the tapes. I think he has it, 77. Bill Walton grabs it with the Portland Trailblazers. He's just dominates kicking ass. Then he gets hurt. Belts vacant. We're now vacant for the 78 playoffs. Seven, nine playoffs. Nobody knows who the best players. 1980, Kareem Abdul Jabbar grabs it back. Heroic win against the Sixers. Plays on the spring deck at game five. So he has it somewhere, somewhere. 81, 82 range. Moses grabs it.

Thank you.

And Moses has it. Moses has it. Maybe when he beats the Lakers in 81 and takes this crappy rockets team to the finals by himself. I think he has it at that point. Has an 82, gets traded. The Sixers, one of the best seasons of all time. So he has it, 383. Then bird has it, 84 to 87. Magic steals it from him in the 87 finals. Magic has it, 87, 88, 89 range. Jordan grabs it. Jordan has it. 9091-9293 wait, please, back up to the bird magic thing.

Magic was never considered the best player in the world prior to 1987.

No, bird was. The bird won three straight MVP's.

I know he did. I'm aware he was the best.

And then Magic beating him in the finals. Magic took it and then Magic had it. Magic won three mvp's in four years. Then Jordan has it. Jordan goes to play baseball. Hakeem's like, thanks, I'll take the belt. And he has it for two years. Jordan comes back. I'll take it back. He has it for 319 99 lockout year vacant. No belt holder. I'm not giving it to Tim Duncan, who wins the title that year. He wasn't quite Tim Duncan. I'm not giving it to him. 2000 Shaq. 2001, Shaq Duncan has it from zero two, I think, through oh seven. There's some, maybe Dwayne Wade there. And oh six. Now, Duncan was the best player in the league, I think, for six years, right? Do you disagree with that?

You're not going to get any disagreement from this guy when it comes to praising Tim Duncan status because, like, it just felt like, hey, like, go through the playoffs when they didn't win the title and it was always something. Yeah, right. And so I, I love it personally. I, look, there's going to be some Kobe stuff, but Shaq towards the end, like, it was kind of over by 0506. He wasn't.

Kobe was on bad. He was on even though Kobe. So you can make a case for Kobe in zero six. And if you want to make the case, I'm fine with it. When Kobe averaged 35 a game and Duncan didn't make the finals. And if you want to say Kobe grabbed it for a year, I'm not going to fight it. But that team did lose, I think in round one or round two, that Kobe team. But so you know what? Let's give it to Kobe in zero six and then back to Duncan. Oh, seven.

I like the Duncan because it could be year. I just don't want to hear like, oh, he won it, he lost it, he won it, he lost it. He wanted. He was. He was the most important player in the league for a really long time. So I'm glad you did it.

Duncan 0207 Kobe grabs it. I think he has it in the zero eight season even though they don't win the title. And then he has it, zero 910. So he has it for those three years and 2011 might be vacant and then Dirk shows up, grabs it.

I think LeBron's the best player in.

The league at that point, but not in the finals. So I think Dirk has it. I think they're Kazu the finals.

But see, this is going to be my point as we close because this is where it gets really interesting. It can't just be revolving belt of who had won titles.

But if Dirk beats him in the finals, I don't know how you could say LeBron is the belt because I.

Think he's the best player in the world. Nobody thought Dirk was the best player in the world when he won that title was an awesome run. Good for Dirk. Great underdog story.

But Lebron did win the MVP in eleven. So maybe it's Kobe. I don't know. I almost feel like 2011. It's either Dirk or vacant for me.

Is that the rose year? Wait, is that the way your rose won the MVP?

Yeah, but he wasn't the. I wouldn't have said he was the best player there. So maybe we go vacant. Then Lebron grabs and Lebron has it. You could say he has it from 2012 to 2018. Is there a Durant case for you at any point?

My Durant case was going to be right around this time.

Okay, so 1718.

No, it was going to be a little bit later. It was when we started having the Giannis argument and I think more people were on the Giannis is the best player in the world mode. And I felt like what KD did with the Nets even though they lost in Milwaukee, I lingered. I lingered with that. And then I finally relented because I just felt like, wait a minute. Why would I watch somebody play basketball the way Durant does offensively and then think Giannis is better than him, considering the level of skill? Like, I think that's why there's always been this odd. It's never as bad as Rudy with the american players, but I think a lot of the american players would look at Giannis and go, okay, yeah, but there's not, like, all this crazy stuff in there. And then finally it was like, yeah, but his intensity from the moment he steps on the floor to his. His overpowering of you and the fact that it worked, you know, Giannis is an entirely different conversation if he doesn't make all of his free throws in that closing game. But, I mean, the guy went for 50 in a closing game to win a title.

So I think there's. I know personally, I was arguing Durant longer than. Than I should have been, but I still think there were some Durant moments in there.

So you wouldn't have gone his first two warrior seasons. You never. Durant was never the best player in the world to you. It was always still LeBron at that point, because I think you can make a real case for Durant in 17.

You can, but it's cheapened by the fact that he's playing with the guy that's playing the world. Right? And so the funny thing about Steph winning the mvp's, I never once thought that Steph was actually the better player than LeBron.

But it's a regular season award. Right? Curry's never in here for you at any point with the belt, as much as we love him.

I agree. Yeah. I don't think there was ever a point where I said he is. If they had wanted in 16, maybe before Durant, you know, that would have been back to back titles, he would have won another mvp. There's a chance you could make the case, but I still think with LeBron being in the league at that point, still in his prime, like, I love Curry. Everybody knows that. I never thought he was actually a better single basketball player than LeBron was. So. No, he actually. I don't think there's any moment that he has the belt.

All right, so we'll give LeBron 1118, I think, kawhi 100% has in 2018. He won the belt. He was the best player in the world, but at the end of that season, he just was.

I normally don't like doing that, but he. He was just. Yeah, yeah, we're cool.

We're cool on that 2020 bubble year, I almost want to go vacant, too. Weird.

This is where in my Durant phase, but go ahead. But then, you know, he's not playing enough. He's hurt.

Yeah, he was hurt.

I'm just talking about, like, the overall, like, status of who is where. And this is.

I get it.

This is.

I do think Giannis, in the 2021 finals, through the 22 playoffs, probably had it and then Jokic took it, and now Luka has a chance to grab it. Or at least it's a conversation with him versus Jokic, because I don't know what else Jokic could have done in the playoffs. He's pretty unbelievable, so I hate dinging him on it. But if Luca rips through the Celtics team, which I think is a better team than Dallas, but if Luka will be the reason they win and if he can beat them, I think we have to have the conversation.

Well, the conversation has already started. It will be had. I just don't like the finality of it because that's not what this is. I know we're going to talk Tatum a little bit later today, but the tatum is kind of hard to pin down when. I don't think it's that hard to pin it down. But because you can't really just slot him, you know, he's not easy to slot that. That means there should be more conversation about it. Like, even if Luca wins it, it will be like, this is why I always hated, like, some of the Heisman stuff or people saying, like, oh, you should have the MVP vote after the playoffs. Like, well, if he did that, then the only time anybody would ever win the MVP is whoever the best player was on the team that won the NBA Finals. And that's not really what the award is supposed to be. If you want it to be that, then go ahead and just come up with a different award. But it will not matter what you do in the regular season at all. And maybe that's the whole point, but I just don't think it makes any sense.

Same thing with the Heisman. Some quarterback has a huge game, national title, didn't win the Heisman, and people like, oh, he should have won the Heisman. You're like, well, wait, what the fuck we doing? So if Luca gets through Boston and wins this, I would say more of the basketball media would be willing to annoint him the best player in the world because it's sexy and it's fun to say when I know I'll be waiting. I'll be like, I gotta. I can need another year before I'm ready to put somebody over Jokic. And maybe it's that third quarter in game.

519 70. Vacant Kareem Wilt. Kareem again. Julius Walton. 78 79. Vacant Kareem Moses bird. Magic Jordan hakeem Jordan again. 1999. Vacant shaq duncan. Six years. Kobe Lebron. Eight years. Rosella says Duran. I veto that one. Kawhi. Vacant Giannis Yokic. We'll see about Luca. Let's take a break. I want to talk Celtics pacers, but just quickly, the go bear trade. Are we back? We lost the Kyrie thing. We thought the Kyrie thing was stupid. Well, turned out we were wrong.

I wouldn't have wanted to give him $100 million. I mean, if my owner came to me and I was a GM, be like, hey, how come we didn't Kyrie, 100 million.

It was 120.

Do you want me to forge you some stories?

Amazing resurgence by the guy. Give him credit, man. I really, I really like watching him play basketball. I'm glad he figured out his life. It's really fun to watch him.

Terrific.

Robin, what other sport, I texted this to you. What other sports conundrums have rivaled you can or can't win with Rudy Gobert? I'm trying to think that there's got to be some quarterback that we argued about like this.

You asked me about this earlier today. You know what's funny is I always think about the green monster, because when you grew up in Boston, you're like, how come they don't win and be like, oh, there's something about pitching at the green monster.

Like, sir Rudigo Bears, the green monster.

Okay. What we learned was it was a stupid theory because they hadn't won in so long. You had to come up with reasons, and it was like, maybe it's the wall and it's too distracting for pitchers pitching out of the stretch. Like, that was something. People are listening to this right now being like, people said that be like, yeah, our elders, our uncles.

Well, part of the problem was that they would build teams that was, were monster friendly teams, right handed sluggers. That would be like, oh, my God, he's going to be amazing with the monster. And once they stopped doing that, they started winning World Series.

Yeah. So does that mean you can't really say that? Because I don't think Rudy Gobert has four rings in his future.

Look, it's weird. It's weird to see somebody treated with this much disdain by so many his peers. Who's won the defensive player of the year four times and who's been a really successful regular season guy and he's been in a lot of playoff games, and yet Draymond, who like, they almost have to hose him down, he's so excited on the TNT set that it's going this badly for Gobert Luca, like, can, can't hide his disdain. But you go through it just seems like a lot of people just don't want this guy to succeed. They don't like the way he plays.

I can't believe this. And for the record, I'll just say, I imagine there's going to be somebody that just figures out with money to put together the group, to just have the TNT crew be doing once a week studio shows. I have a hard time believing that this is just sort of over.

But you mean when NBC just hires the entire team, they're going to be fine? The dumbest discussion of all time is, oh, my God, we have to say goodbye to inside the NBA. The guys are going to be fine. Everybody calm down. NBC is going to hire them. And if they don't, Amazon's going to hire them, we're fine.

But if they didn't, if this really were the last week and they're like, hey, we're going to have Draymond Green come by. Like, I remember talking to Mel and Todd about the draft and I was like, look, you year round draft guys, this is your thing. Yeah, like, we're hit. We're hitting you up twelve months out of the year and people love draft content. And then ESPN will just start rolling out all the former players and then these guys. And look, I do it for the NBA. I'm not a year round NBA draft guy. I cram. And then I share my thoughts and I try to say that as if I know I can't do this year round the way the other guys do, who I have a ton of respect for. But at ESPN, like, they'd have a former player come by, watch some tape, then he'd be on with McShay or Mel, who'd spent the entire year watching film of these guys, and they would just have like, these outrageous views. Now, the thing with the draft is you're going to be right. You're going to be wrong no matter how much or how little work you do, because it's, it's projecting people.

But I'd asked McShay, I was like, what's that like? He's like, Mel and I call it Daytona. It's like Jaws and Hodge come in on their bikes, choppers and they just start, like, barreling through town like this. Andrew, look, I don't see it, you know, so.

I don't.

Anyway, back to the original point. I can't believe they're putting Draymond on the broadcast during this time. He fucks it up. He doesn't understand the difference between being funny and critical and just being fucking mean. Although Drayman's been a heater of delusion. I mean, look, I can tell him firsthand, a lot of people do not like tax content, so you might want to bottle that one up. And if you did the Shaq thing about how it's not set up for him to be rich with taxes and fines, everything else that he said. But imagine, like, going to Mike and Mike on your last week and going, hey, carrot top. Sitting with you guys for your last week on ESPN radio. No, no offense to carrot top, just different styles of humor.

Amir Blumenfeld tweeted that it was like Cousin Oliver's eleven episodes on the Brady Bunch, which is probably the most dated pop culture reference I'm going to drop all year, but I thought it was a good joke.

Who was Cousin Oliver?

He was the guy they brought in the last Brady Bunch season. He was like their wacky cousin. It's like, this is the last Brady Bunch season. Why are we screwing this up? Is that like a Draymond's fault? I don't think there's a single human brain they could bring in for the fifth spot that would, I'd want to hear from. Because this is the last run with these four guys on TNT. They're going to go to another network, but not with all the same employees anyway.

Wait, so the hold up, though, was that they said that Ernie wouldn't work somewhere else, potentially.

Well, he. He might be near the end of the road, I think, is the problem. He might just be ready to retire soon. So he's been a turner since, you know, for decades. Does he want to jump somewhere else?

People tell you what the history tells me. It's like, hey, do you want to work one night a week on this seasonal job for millions of dollars instead of doing nothing? Most people do the former.

Or he stays at Turner and does baseball and some other stuff, and he can say he worked there for 40 plus years, however long it is. I don't know. I don't know the answer. Um, what happened in Minnesota's historically great d is the other question. I know I did a whole segment on this podcast about trying to wonder about where they placed against the 890 four pistons. The problem is they don't have the specific defender to defend the six eight guy with size who can get to all the spots he wants, and it's just this. So basically they couldn't have defended Larry Bird, Luka, Doncic. It's probably it. But if we're going historically great, the 89 Pistons and the four Pistons had guys to defend Bird and Donchic. So that would be the fatal flaw for the Minnesota argument.

I don't think I did a very good job on the Rudy thing, though, because I went on two different tangents there. So I apologize. But this isn't really. There are the Rudy moments that we don't like. First of all, there's no center that would have closed out on Luca. I don't think. I mean, even Wemby, I mean, would Wendy have changed that shot?

Dude, we're going to see it in a week with poor Zingis. They're going to try to do the same stuff to poor Zingis and pull him out 30ft from the basket with Luke on him. That Dallas. Everything they do is going to try to have that happen. And if it's not him, it's our. That's what they did.

I feel like Horford's been in every defensive action for like ten straight games. Like every single one of them. I know that's not true, but it's feels like it. As much as I'm not the biggest Rudy guy, it does seem incredibly nasty because he's a foreigner and maybe resentment about the contract. And then there was something going around. Of the top 15 players annual salary for this year, the only one that's still playing is still Rudy. There's always Rudy moments that I don't love. Most of them have to do with him touching the basketball. But this isn't three oh because of Rudy. It isn't. It's aunt and cat. Do you agree with that?

I would. My blame pie. Blame pie. Remember that show? Blame pie? Ant highest probably 42%. Towns 40% and Rudy 18%. Unless you want to work some coaches in, let's move to the Boston Celtics, who are 75 and 20.

It's a good record.

Have a chance to sweep and get to the finals. I looked this up, too. I did a lot of homework this week. Teams with 20 losses or less heading to the finals in the last 40 years. Here's the list. It's not a long one. The 96 bulls were 83 and 1116. Warriors 85 and 14. They lost 97, bulls 80 and 1517. Warriors were 79 and 1586. Celts 87. Lakers both 78 and 16. The 2013 heat, 78 and 2092. Bulls 78 and 20. And the 2024 Celtics 75 and 20. Those are a lot of good teams, Rosala. Now, literally every star in the east got hurt. That was helpful. I don't know if. I don't know if 75 and 20 happens, if maybe five more guys played butler, Giannis, embiid, like, keep. We keep going. But still, 75 and 20 is impressive. It just is. And I don't think they get enough credit. Especially, like, you know, the Tatum dialog is going to. Especially if we have nine days until the finals. The tatum dialog is going to be excruciating. Just if you're going to talk about Tatum and Brown, just mention the durability and the competitiveness and the success, because I think I talked about this over and over again on the pod.

Winning matters, success matters, reliability matters, and those guys are fucking reliable and they're fucking successful. And just mention it as you're critiquing them.

I listened to you talk about where Tatum is and what I think makes it complicated, but it shouldn't be complicated, is like, hey, he's never going to be the best player in the league. He never has been. He's never going to be. But he makes another all NBA first team. He's in that group. But because he's not ever going to be the best player, it's frustrating for some reason. Like, you're entitled to have the best player all the time. And then on the other side of it's like, well, he's actually really good, so you can't be that critical of that much stuff. Like, yeah, maybe his demeanor is a little subdued for who's supposed to be the one. You know, the reason we fall in love with Ant are some of the same reasons we criticized Tatum, I think with him. And even in the Cleveland series and in this pacer series, we know they're going to shoot a ton of threes. I'd say there's five to seven threes where I'm like, why did you even bother? Like, you guys are good. Like, there are teams that don't have good players on ball creators. And I'm like, okay, I can see why you took that three because you kind of can't get anything better.

Yeah, you're playing the map, right? Boston will still have five to seven. Blake, why did you like, there's still so much time left in the shot clock. You guys didn't even give yourselves a chance in this possession. But I think it's kind of like with. With stars, where if you have a real star and he takes 20 shots a game, there's probably five you wish you didn't take. But in the nights where he's making these impossible shots, it's because he's. He's even willing to take those. So if you're a coach, you kind of have to allow it. And I think the Celtics are kind of like a team version of that, with the three pointing, with the three point stuff, but, you know, to watch what he did in overtime and then for them to come back in game three where it looked like they were ready to take the night off, there's so much more to like about Tatum, but because he's not extremely disappointing or the best conversation, it feels like people don't know what to do with it. I mean, he gets. The way he gets talked about, like, is if he.

He gets talked about like he's never been out of the second round or something.

I know. And. Or that some of the big clutch games that he had, like, game $6, game six, seven, Philly. Like, what he did to Durant, like, it's like none of that shit happened. Beat Butler in a series I thought he played. I thought game three was the second best game he ever played. And I've watched most of them and I've seen all the playoff games, because game $6 was the best one you ever played. There's no question. 46 was 17 for 32, 715 from three. And he was on the road and they were going to lose and get sent home. And he just. That was the best he's ever played. Pacers 36, ten and 812 for 23. No turnovers. There was some two way stuff that he was doing in that game that was. I just think his defense is rebounding. Um, he's always in the right spots. His passing, those two behind the back passes to Horford were out of control. It's always making the right decisions. Uh, I thought he was awesome. And then the other two I had, if we were going to do four, would be game seven against the Sixers, which was a blowout, but he had 51.

And then game three against the Nets in Brooklyn when they're up to nothing. 39, five and six, six steals, and Katie had 16 points, got to the line nine to ten, and was just like. Was like, wow, he's better than Kevin Durant. I can't believe it. This is like, we're doing this. He's actually a better player than Kevin Durant. So I think those were the four most important games for him. But in the playoffs, he's twice, though.

Why last night? I'm surprised.

What do you mean?

I'm just surprised that you, you. I just make a case that last night's the, what, fourth?

So I make the case. I think it was second best, and here's why.

Second best, sorry.

They needed a win like that. They needed a pop, some chest hair. They needed one of those ones. They're down to 18. Indiana is making every fucking shot in the planet. Right? Like Jalen says afterwards, he's like, every guy in the team turned into Michael Jordan. Nemhart. His season high was 22 points. His playoff high was 20. And I think he. What did he finish with? 35. Like, everything he's throwing up is going in. TJ McConnell's making threes from the corner. Like, it just, everything's going in for that team. Miles Turner, and it's 84, 66. And they just, Tatum just had these little moments, right? He has a drive and then three point play. They get a layup. They kind of, they, they stem it off. So they're kind of lingering around. 88, 76, has a three, has a block, does a, does get passes to Wade for free throws. 93, 87. That's when he hits Horford with the behind the back to cut it to 397, 90. Gets fouled on a three when they really need a basket, then passes to Wade. First three when it's 109, 101, 239 left, Brown hits a big twelve footer.

Tatum has another behind the back for Al three. And he hits that big three at the top of the key. And they come back. But I just, every time they need to play for him, I felt like Cameron Brown made it and then drew took over down the stretch. But I thought he was. You watch a game like that and it's like, what are you guys talking about? This guy? If he's not one of the four best players in the league, he's the fifth. Like, who are you taking over him after you get through the top four? You're not taking anybody. He's the fifth best player in the league.

Okay, so wait a minute. Let's do this right now.

Sga. And Tatum is fifth by any calculation?

Not Jalen Bronson. No, not ant now.

No, no. Because part of the thing, this is what I've been saying all year with Tatum, like, part of the case for him is like, his ability to play all these different roles during a game I really value. It's like when, like way, way back with havoc where he could play guard he could play forward. He, you could even go small and put him at the fore. Like, you can just kind of mold the team around him. And I think Tatum has that ability to, you know, he's plays, playing point guard a lot of the game yesterday where he's bringing the ball up and, you know. Right. They're setting picks for him 40ft from the basket and he's deciding everything. But he was also, like, taking a big defensive responsibility, too. I ride for Tatum.

I.

It frustrates the hell out of me when he, when he misses threes, and I don't know why he thinks he's such a good three point shooter when he's way streaker than he is. I've said that a million times, but I think the guy's an excellent, excellent basketball player. Yeah.

I was talking to somebody in the league about it the other day and we were just talking about, like, kind of things we're doing now. And I say that not to brag, I say it to, like, alert the audience of like, hey, this is what somebody who does this for a living, because I always think that's the most valuable stuff you can share. And the point was really interesting because it was kind of like, you know how when you watch Jokic and you want him to do more. Right, right. But his inherent philosophy. Right. Like, what he wants to be is a connector. Yeah. And the guys, like, I'm not saying Tatum's even like, in that jokic class, but Tatum does so much more. And you would rather have that, like, it'd be great if he were Luca. Okay, I agree. Sga is better. I mean, look, as much as I loved ant, I couldn't make any kind of case that ant was better than SgA. I like watching Ant more, but Sga just look at the numbers like, and then, like, I go into next year feeling even better about SGA. I still think, you know, people are turning the page on Giannis a little too soon here.

And Bede would be the other person that would. Right? You're not. And Bede would be the other person to be brought up in this, in the fifth spot, considering.

Here's the thing, Rousseau, because I've heard this and it really bugs me when we talk about players careers, how people pit against each other and nobody cares about the durability piece. The durability piece has to be a piece of it. I need guys who are going to play, who I know are going to play, be able to play big minutes in the playoffs. Tatum is playing again, like 40 plus minutes every playoff game. You know, this is why I guarantee everybody on the planet would think LeBron James is a better basketball player than Jalen Brown, right? And he, and he is. Hes more talented. But if I'm trying to win a title over the course of eight months, do I want Jalen Brown or a guy who's 39 years old? Who's the safer bet? Who do you trust more? Who can guard somebody on the other end? Who do you have to worry about? Like, oh, no, I don't want to burn too much energy on this. Who's willing to kind of pop around in a game and maybe not take a shot, you know, for nine minutes in the fourth quarter because somebody else is feeling it.

Like, you got to think about shit like that. I think when you're talking about somebody in their twenties, they're just more reliable than people in their thirties. It's a fact. Injuries come into play. Consistency, durability, especially if you're going round after round after round. We're watching Ant, who's 22, who's the physical specimen. He's worn out when we're three games into the western finals. So watching how Tatum and Brown, what they put in their bodies and how they're able to come back in a game like that, I think that's part of it. You know, Jimmy Butler, who's Jimmy Butler is like 35. Like, I think people would think Jimmy Butler is as good as Tatum or like, in the vicinity. But Jimmy Butler misses 2025 games a year, right? I don't know what Jimmy Butler is going to be next year. He's going to be in his mid thirties. Do you trust him to be able to play for eight and a half straight months? I don't.

Yeah. And if I'm Jimmy Butler too, like, you've been around, you've had some really great moments. You think at this stage of your life you'd be talking shit when you're not playing while Tatum's out playing. And I know this has already been covered before by Pat Riley, more importantly than anybody else, but the durability thing is like the Pierce argument, because Pierce was never the best player in the league, and I would say he rarely was. Even flirting with top five and his champions.

Two all NBA's, right? He never got first team on NBA and maybe got 1 second team on NBA, and that was it.

But when I would talk to the Celtics about like, okay, where is he? Like, how do you see it? Like, I know how I feel, but, like, how do you see your own player? And where he is. And they were like, man, he does not. This guy plays every game. He plays through everything, which is why I always hate the wheelchair meme, because it's like, yeah, you guys think he's soft? Like, that moment doesn't make any sense to me either. I was in the building for it. But the truth is he played through everything. So he may not be like, peak talent of the McGrady's and the Kobe's and all these guys. Look, I'm not comparing Pierce to Kobe, but there was a. There was a shorter, like, peak window for him. But he played all of the time. And it's why Boston is on this extended run here with Brown and Tatum going back to 17 before Tatum got there and then 18 again. But it's going to be weird in this series if Dallas wins and Lucas clearly the better player because he's clearly the better player. And Tatum is going to have to go through all this because I don't even know who I'm picking.

Like, this Dallas Minnesota series has made me now go, whoa. Like, what am I going to do now? Well, I thought I knew what I was going to do before the series started.

Boston has won the last four against Dallas. Granted, completely different Dallas team, but none of those.

Yeah, they don't mean anything.

I think they're the type of team that you would create if you're trying to beat Dallas is the thing that I think is in the most in their favor. Right. Tatum and Brown to throw at Luca, you're not going to stop them. But a little drew, maybe. Maybe a little Drew. Like, by the way, Drew is kind of an expert. And Drew, we didn't even talk about yesterday. Holy shit.

Drew holiday last night. That is one of my all time favorite Drew holiday games. Just for the moments when. And I. I love what JJ Reddick did on the broadcast. Cause not a lot of analysts do this. He told us how much he noticed that the Celtics defense just was a switch. He was like, okay, now they're awake. Look at this. Look at this. And they did a good job of, like, alerting you to it as you were watching it. And the stuff that Drew did to turn that game around late. Getting Siakam in the n one. I have a theory that Siokam is, like, really good for 46 minutes, but it's a working theory, so I'm not there yet.

He's an eight inning, eight inning starter.

He didn't start. Or. What are those?

It's funny cause I've watched Drew his whole career. And I think I've been on the higher side of people who love Drew, who never rooted for him, watching him day in, day out. Like some of the shit he does, man, that. That little lefty post up move he has against big guys where they're like, wait, are you gonna try to scorn me right now? And then he uses his body like that's one of the biggest baskets of the game. Was him going at Turner with the let with the weird fucking lefty move he has. But.

And then the steel.

The steel was nuts. And Carlisle thought it was a foul and it just wasn't. Like, he just. He knew Nemhart was going right the whole game and he just got to the spot and beat him to it.

That had to be a brutal game to leave if you were Pacers fan.

Well, Carlisle was. Well, how about Carlisle? He was so pissed, right? Cause you figured, like, after the 15th shot that you pulled out of your ass, you're probably winning the game. I have more. More celtic stuff, but we got to take one more break back to the Celts. I'm going to do a little. I didn't tell you we were going to do this. Bucks heat, 2023. Sliding doors.

Okay.

What happens if Giannis doesn't get hurt and Milwaukee just beats Miami in that series? Because here's how it plays out. Giannis gets hurt and he comes back and they're down two one. Butler has 56 in game four. Drew goes six for 19. They blow a big lead. Then game five, do or die. Butler is 42. Drew goes four for eleven. Another blown lead. Coach Bud gets fired. The Harriet Jim Griffin. Well, Miami beats Boston in seven. Now Boston and Milwaukee are like, oh, shit, we got to do something. This didn't work out. Boston trades smart for KP and two first. Milwaukee is like, we've taken this Drew thing as far as it can go. We need to get Dame. They trade Drew Allen a 29 first and 28 30 swaps for Dame. And then Boston takes one of the first they got from KP, puts it with Brogdon Rob and a 29 first, and they get Drew. And it all happens because I think because Giannis fell down in game one, I think if that doesn't happen, I think Drew's still in the bucks. I don't think they do anything. I think they beat Miami.

They probably beat Boston, right? I didn't love that Boston team last year. It's just the smart Brogdon. Rob Williams is playing. He's not playing. Grant was kind of wearing on people. Joe Maz's first year, I think Milwaukee would have beaten him. And then Drew still on the team. So I look back at that, I'm like, wow, that was fucking crazy. Jimmy Butler had 56 points at a playoff game. Giannis got hurt, like, what the fuck happened? It's gonna be like a documentary someday. That's my rent.

Only thing I'd offer is, do you think if Milwaukee, let's say, loses to Denver in the NBA Finals and Dame is available, Milwaukee goes, we're fine. We don't want Dane, because I would tell you the league's history is that you would just want to up your level of talent, and you'd be like, okay, fine, we'll take Dame.

It seems like they were really afraid Giannis was going to ask out and felt like the dame trade was the way to prevent that. But when you think of, they traded Drew Holiday, Grayson Allen, who turned into one of best shooters in the league this season, a 29 first and 28 30 swaps for Dame. The way Dame looked this year and then watching what Drew's doing in the playoffs, that's a brutal trade. I didn't like it when it happened, and it looks worse now when you see how good Drew is in a playoff series. And I think Drew is put in a little bit more than maybe he's capable of at this point of his career. Milwaukee, last year, we had the ball a lot. Like, did you see average 17 shots a game last year? Now he's at like, I don't know, 1011, and he's more doing Drew stuff.

He's in a great spot because I think that probably one of the critiques of him with the Bucks fans would be, hey, we all love him for all the same reasons Celtics fans love him now. But he also was in a spot where he was taking way too many big playoff shots, and now he doesn't have to. He doesn't even have to shoot with this team.

Right? So in retrospect, do you think Milwaukee would have said, let's keep. Let's keep these two? We need to get another guard that can take some of the offensive load off Giroud. Let's sell Giannis on that. Versus trading for Dame, who, you know, I just didn't like to trade. I still don't. But I've been wrong on a lot of stuff this year, too. I had one last thing on Tatum and Durant, too. Tatum from 2020 to 2024-7879 playoff games, and he's basically averaging 26 nine and six. Durant, ages 21 to 27, 2010 to 2016 average 29, eight and four. Stats are basically the same, except Tatum has more assists and Duranoff scored three more points a game. He played 91 games. Tatum's playing 79 during the stretch, plus the finals. Tatum has eleven series wins in the finals and Durant had ten series wins in the finals. And I think Tatum's closer because I brought this up to Mahoney on Thursday and I think we think of Durant and we think, well, this guy's the best scoring forward in history. He can't compare Tatum. But from a success impact stat standpoint and an age standpoint and what you've achieved, he's basically having the exact same run Durant had.

With the exception. Durant made the finals once, Tatum made the finals once, looks like he's going to make it a second time. Which makes me wonder, does he have a level to go up like Durant did in 17 and 18 for Golden State? Or did that happen because Durant had better teammates? I still feel like Tatum's not a finished product yet, is my point.

Yeah, you guys say that a lot and I'm. I don't understand that. Pretty sure this is who he is. I know he's young.

You don't think the three point shooting can get better, though? Cause it's gotten worse, not better, the last two years. That would be the way for him to get better is the three point shooting.

I imagine that three point shooting will get back, but I also think it's a decision thing. It's like what I was talking about before. Like when I don't like Boston's offense, I go, you had way more time to try to find something better than this and you settled. I know they're going to take a million threes, but it's like, you guys are good, you're not a bad basketball team where it's like none of us can dribble past anybody, so let's just take more threes. So would you like what they did.

Yesterday when they were coming back? Cause I thought that was about as sophisticated as they've been with, actually, like, let's get to the basket, let's get good shots, let's make the extra pass. Now, granted, they're playing an Indiana team that, you know, compared to what we just watched in that Dallas Minnesota game, I would say is a lot weaker defensively.

No, I mean watching the Pacers just try to survive here where there's still a lot of players that I kind of like there a little bit. And the defense is better without Halliburton, but you know, to me, the next Tatum leap. But I would have thought this would have happened already. He's so big, he's so good with his hands that you just think he could get downhill a little bit more. And he's going to settle. He's always going to settle a little bit more than we want. And that's when the haters will circle.

I like that he went to the rim on that last play. He missed the layup and then drew stripped them hard. But I thought that it was a good sign that he actually realized he need to get to the basketball. Jalen Brown wanted to mention this. Got that contract. Everyone made fun of him. I just. He's been awesome. Like, they're down eight and the game is basically, if they don't score in that position, it's like they're down eight with like two and a half minutes left. They don't score, the game's probably over. And he ends up with the ball. They post him up and he has turner on his back and he hits like a little twelve footer over him. He's just been making a big plays at the right moments, which I don't think you always would have said about him. We'll see if it keeps going, if the convert, if the competition is about to escalate. But last four playoffs for him, 74 games, he's 23 and 749 percent shooting is playing 38 minutes a game. And durable, which, you know, I just. I just think he's another one that I feel like he's.

I was making another list, just like top 30 players in the league. And to me, he's somewhere in that 20 to 22 range, and I don't think a lot of people would have him there. I thought he was. You voted for him for OMb, right? Or you did not know you had Booker over him, right?

Yeah.

You just love Booker.

I do. Because he's awesome.

Well, get ready for a Jalen Brown referendum the next week. And then here's one for you, Al Horford. Only 22 guys in the history of the league have played at least 175 playoff games. And then when it gets to 180, the list starts dropping. It goes like 1615. Some of the names on this list are names you would think, like LeBron, Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Magic, all those guys. But then there's some of those, like, manus on this list. Robert Hori, Robert Parrish, Derek Fisher, Tony Parker, Dennis Johnson, Iguodala, Byron Scott. Danny Ange is number 22. I was thinking Horford. He's probably this decade's version of parish. Hori Rashid Iguodala. Like, that kind of level of guy. He probably can't be one of your best three, but he's an awesome fourth guy and makes huge plays and can just keep playing a little longer, maybe a couple years longer than you ever expected. It's 38. He had like six threes yesterday. He's going to be playing a huge part in this Dallas series. And this was a guy we thought was washed up three years ago, but I just feel like he's been doing this for so long.

Everybody's like, oh, yeah, Al Horford had another big game. It's like, this is fucking crazy that he's still doing this age 38. This is not a typical thing for big dudes. So shout out to them.

I love the Iguodala comp is great, not because of their style of play, but because of the impact and the trust. Trust.

Great work.

Can we have this guy on the roster? Can we have him out there with a closing five and he gets put into all of these things, which I know I already mentioned. I think I still have nightmares on his behalf in the Cleveland series.

Yeah.

And it's why it's so important against Dallas to have Przingas back in there, just to give them a different look. But I think that might be why they play Tillman, you know? But I think he. I think Joe Missoula got pissed at Tillman on something called timeout, yanked him out of there. I think it's why Brissette, you know, because I think the weird thing is Missoula at least has to develop some kind of depth there on the fly, and that's what the east playoffs have been for them. I would have probably liked to see even a little bit more of that, even though that sounds like a ridiculous request for a team to be like, hey, can you ask the head coach to develop the bench a little bit here 100 games into the season? But it's going to be really important and because if they don't have Przingas and just thinking about how they're going to be attacking Horford, he's going to battle, he's going to be in the right position, he's going to be doing all these things and it still won't really matter.

They're going to have Porzy.

Confidence.

They threw him in the cooler. Joe Maze, I thought, was one of his best games he ever coached yesterday. And you mentioned that Tillman play. That was a good example. He's got pissed. Tillman didn't get, you know, they got an offensive rebound. Tillman fell asleep for a second, and he did one of those Eric spolstro, like, you know, pissed off timeouts. Just like, I don't think we saw Tillman again, but it was Missoula's only.

Paint touch of the game.

Well, he had another one where he didn't like where the play was going, and he ran out past mid court to call the timeout. But I just, I like some of the stuff he did. Um, there was a quote after the game where they. I think White said, halfway through the third quarter, Mizuh was like, stop feeling sorry for yourselves. We have a chance to win this game and, like, kind of kick them in the ass a little bit. But I think he's grown as a, as a coach. Like that team. That win yesterday was, I think, the best win they've had all season. And granted, no halberd, and I get it, but that crowd was into it. It's the kind of game that they would have fought back and then lost by two points at the end. You'd be like, oh, man, oh, man. I wish they had a better last. But they actually won the game. And I think it was. It was a weird little step for them.

I just feel you uncovered all sorts of positivity and evidence from game three.

I did. I thought it was a really important game for them because I think they would have lost that game a couple of months ago and.

And then won the series in five.

Yeah. But I think there's a trust developing with those five guys specifically. And White and holiday together, they're just really fucking hard to play, man. White, like the. The way those guys protect the rim. What other team have you ever seen that has guards protecting the rim like that over and over again? They had a possession or four straight possessions of third quarter where they had blocks. You know, they're over and over again getting turnovers and, and racing. And I think when it gets to a Dallas Boston series, how Dallas controls not turning the ball over, you know, keeping the pace the way they want it versus the Celts get so much good stuff off defense and turnovers and making it so that the Celts are constantly just taking the ball out of bounds and walking it up. That's how Dallas is going to win. And then get to the final three minutes, and it's Luca and Kyrie versus Tatum and Derek White.

Can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

Where will you rank these things?

Hmm.

86 Buckner.

Really?

Bob Stanley, Eli Manning come back?

Yeah.

18 and one yeah. You're old enough. We'll throw Bucky Dent in there.

Please do. It's a horrible day.

Down to Dallas has the ball.

No, tory, you gotta. If you're gonna make the worst list of the worst moments of my sports life, too many men in the ice has to be on there, too.

Okay?

That was horrible. 1979, okay? That's whenever it was.

Okay.

Dallas might be on there, too.

Dallas is down to game seven at the Garden. Luca gets trapped, swings it. Kyrie hits a game winning three buzzer.

Kyrie knocking the Celtics out of the. Out of the title.

Yeah. 7 seconds up left. Game winner. Sit. Shot was good. Kyrie. Kyrie.

I'm going to say this, and I know it's. It's probably going to be cut into some sort of clip. I don't have any animosity toward Kyrie like that. Like, I really have enjoyed watching this year, and I feel like it was five years ago, and I don't know what happened to him in 2019. I don't know what happened at that point in his life. I don't know why it ended up so unhappily. Well, I'm just saying with the Celtics experience, right? And then the stuff with Brooklyn after, and there was a lot of animosity. But I look at this now, like, they're playing great. Celtics are playing great. And I really hope, like, at these games, the story is just like, two really awesome teams battling versus, like, oh, here's some shit that happened five years ago. But I know how sports works, and I know. I know that's how it's going to be. But no matter how you felt about Kyrie in the past, like, the guy's playing great, got a hand at tone.

Prediction. He's going to say something or do something. You're going to be so pissed. Within day two of the coverage of this series actually starting that you're seriously think, like, wow, all right. That's surprised. Like, I don't. I see where you're at with the appreciation. I mean, he's been so good in this series, too, where I think the Oklahoma City thing was, like, him picking his spots, and I was kind of like, what's going on with him? And in this series, it's like, all right, well, I guess it's just on. I mean, his understanding of the moment. Like, whenever Minnesota felt like they were going to get back into the game, he hits that left side three. Like, right, like, kind of that. Not full court. It's not like a fast break three, but it's like, a transition three. We already talked about the other two plays that he made from the right side. But, man, even with appreciating that, I would. I think you're. I believe you, but I also think once the game start, there's going to be a part of you that's like, you don't want that guy celebrating on your court.

You don't want that.

I'm going to be way more annoyed with Luca. Cause I'm already annoyed with Luca when I watch him, just for all the calls he argues, that's like, that's going to go into the games just rooting for the Celtics. That's going to drive me way more crazy than anything. Kyrie. I mean, the thing with Kyrie is he's been a really, really, really good teammate for them. Those guys, like, all, like, defend him, and they all say the right things about him. You can watch it. Like, that team is super close, that they all stick up for each other. Like, that's the kind of basketball I want to watch, so I got to give it up to them. The Luca bitching about every call, that will annoy me way more. And being unable to stop Luca will also be super annoying. Like, oh, fuck, Tatum, you fall for that again, like, that's going to drive me, you know, way more nuts. But I like the lively piece. I want to know when he comes back. Cause that was about as bad of an injury as, you know, we've had in the playoffs where he's like, oh, that looked awful.

And they said he had a sore neck, but I just don't know how that's not a concussion. When does he come back from that? Cause we've seen guys take headshots where they're gone for, like, two weeks. Yeah.

Okay. Here's the thing, though. With concussions, we don't know, so.

Right. But I think it's a.

It's.

It's a factor.

It could be something that looks awful, and it's not even close to being concussion. He could have just been like, this kills because his neck wasn't tense. He gets blasted by a 200 and, what, 60 pound guy. So I just think the concussion speculation. I'm glad we're past concussion content because we had a couple peak years. There were people diagnosing him on Thursday night football, and I'm kind of glad that we're out.

That was the glory years of doctors on the couch. So if you had to rank Seltz math storylines, can Luca be the guy is probably number one, right, for this series?

Luca belt.

Something Luca, something Luca related.

We already know he's the guy, but.

I'm saying something Luca, like, how high can this go with Luca? Anything Luca related, any storyline, like, he's the number one story of that finals, I think.

Yeah, because it's, you know, because of their second life in the season, because they were a five seed, you know, because it wasn't like going into the year, you know, you just didn't. You had so many questions about who they were going to be, and then it just comes together, and then you're looking at the stacked west. I'm like, I don't know. They're going to get through this. Like, I still have these other three teams ahead of them. Was wrong about that. And so this all coming together with, like, luca, you know, this is what I always want for the best players is I want the best players in the world to at least have this moment so we don't just sit around being like, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with them? Because a lot of times maybe something's wrong with them, but a lot of times it's who was in their way or how good was the team around them. And this thing has just come together, man, in a way that's so impressive that that has to be it more than any other celtic storyline, right?

Yeah, there's. There's an interesting tatum conversation. If the Celtics win the title and he's the best player belt, that. No, it's just people normally were used to. When somebody actually wins the title, it's like that guy. He's the guy. And, you know, we've seen a couple times over history, like, when the zero four Pistons won, it was like, team. Whoa. And it became more of a team combo than an individual combo, which I think will happen. But I think there's some pretty good tatum stuff, too. There's the Kybri revenge series. There's a funny Porzingis revenge series plot, if he's healthy. My revenge kind of just cast them aside. Never heard great stuff about him and Luca. And, you know, could, could that be a fun one? This is. This gets dark. But there's a Jason Kidd revenge series, too. I mean, he owned the Celtics in zero two and zero three, and it was one of the darker moments with the Boston crowd that I'm not going to defend. And I was in the crowd for and I hated, but they.

That was like, one of the things.

It just was ugly all the way around. There were no winners.

I just moved to town during that phase.

Yeah, and I'm not. I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that. There's the 18th Celtics banner, by the way. They've only won a one banner in the last 38 years. Not insignificant. There's the Grant Williams factor. Who has the. Who gets the. Who lands the Grant Williams podcast?

He just did one guest, Grant. He's warming up.

Yeah, he'll be in. Does he go?

You should do it.

Does he go?

Grant Williams. Grant will.

Does he go? Is he inside? Like, is he working for NBA tv?

I think you need to have him on. I actually would like to hear you and Grant.

Why don't we have him on next Sunday, the three of us?

I think it should be a Thursday. I think it should be you and Grant, just the two of us. I'm just going to get in the way.

What if it's like one of those. Maybe it's like a comedian's getting coffee. Just Grant and I drive around a car with cameras. Grant, what happened in Dallas?

And then, by the way, anyone out there in content that was like, we're going to drink a different liquid in drive around, around.

Tea. Chamomile tea.

Right. Coffee. Did you just, I don't know, do come up with a different idea?

There's a drew holiday if they win the title. Two titles in four years as like one of the great Dennis Johnson type guys of his generation.

Two behind Lebron.

There's a really fun Al Horford combo. You like that joke? Al Horford winning the title?

Okay, I'm interested.

Oh, long career. Wins it in 38. That's a fun story.

I love when the pod runs out of gas. What do you were like? There's an interesting Al Horford one and I was like, okay, I'm ready.

Emotional Al Horford hugging people.

And then is the selling point. It's called Al Horford. Season one is he's old and then he wins a title.

He's old and it means a lot. Yeah. He's hugging his kids and they're actually teenagers.

It's going to be sweaty. It's going to be crazy. Confetti everywhere. What season?

Other storylines as we have nine days to kill there. Somebody will write a giant Nico Harrison piece because he did a great job. I like that he actually identified guys that he had this crazy history with from watching them when they were like twelve and 13, that, uh, he actually brought stuff in. That is stuff that normal people couldn't have, could have known. Right? Like PJ Washington, how much he loved Dallas and the Mavericks and had always wanted to be in a situation like this. Anyway, impressive by him. And then there's a weird Dallas ownership thing. So they win the title, who gets the trophy?

Whoever I would. Well, it's not like Cuban's not going to be there holding the trophy.

Cuban's not the governor anymore.

Yeah, I know, but he's there.

It's going to be some guy, Philippe, whatever his name is. He'd be like, where's Cuban? Who's this guy?

Is it going to be the Vegas real estate guy?

Yeah, I think it. I think whoever that dude is.

Yeah, I looked him up a little bit. That's a nice life. Seems like. I don't know. I don't know him personally, obviously, though, just from the outside. So maybe, I'm assuming then the only.

Other storyline I was thinking was just, what's happened to home court? Like, the Celtics have home court in the finals, and I have no idea what that means anymore because it just seems like anyone could go anywhere and win at any game at any time.

It feels like it's one of those, like, pieces of information where you would look back years and be like, remember that four or five year window where home court didn't mean anything? You know, like, look at Minnesota. And then Boston's had this weird stretch. So I would think with places like Boston. And by the way, like, the Dallas crowd is incredible. The Minnesota crowd's been great, the OKC crowd. There's a lot of crowds throughout these playoffs. Look at that pacers crowd last night. They don't have. Halliburton's not playing down two. Oh, that place was on fire. So I think there's a lot of places I just can't fathom not wanting it. But, you know, whether it's the role player cliche thing of it, it just. Statistically, it's just absurd. And it. I feel like it has to be an outlier as opposed to the new norm. Right?

I would say that, except we're in like, year four of it just doesn't seem to matter. Dallas has always had one of the best crowds, and I do think it helps the role players a little bit. But I was lucky enough to go to the eleven finals, those three games in Dallas against Miami, and the crowd was a huge part of why they won. Their fans are great. They know when to cheer, they know when to make noise. Like they're just really good. The Boston crowd is also great. But I mean, sometimes with these finals games, when they're starting at 917 at night, there's just a weird energy thing that starts to happen once you start to get into midnight. Everybody just seems like a little groggy. So we'll see. Well, Boston's got to take care of business. Minnesota's got to take. If I. If you. If I told you one of these teams is going to come back and force a game seven, Indiana or Minnesota.

Who would you pick for a game seven?

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Well, by the way, that's not happening. But you would say Minnesota.

Yeah. I mean, I can make my case. Can make the case for it. I mean, I wouldn't have thought that ant and cat combined could continue to be that bad. Even though ant overall, I felt better about him, except for those two late plays again. And the mislab thing is strange. But why can't they have a good night? You know? Why can't they have a good night? Why can't you get a dud from, say, like Kyrie in game four and has a bad three point shooting night and then, you know, they go back to Minnesota. You know, clearly the teams are close, but the difference is, is one team is completely comfortable in the uncomfortable moments and the other team is not.

Yeah. Minnesota needs to be up ten with three minutes left. Halberd's done. He's not coming back. So. And the Celts are in this weird spot where I think they thought Porzingis was going to come back for game four, but now it's like, why would you do that? Just put them. Put them in bubble wrap until game one. Game one's not until Thursday, I think, June 6.

June 6.

Jesus. And then there's two days off until Sunday is game two, and then it's another two days off until Wednesday, game three. So they just need to get him to that stretch. I don't think Porzingis has been gone for so long. I don't think people realize or remember how impactful he was for the Celtics because corporate's just been able to come in and play 37 minutes a game. But the poor Zingis piece is going to be huge against Dallas. Huge for rent protection. Um, huge for when their offense gets a little stale, stagnant, can't wait.

Well, the other thing, too, is just think about the spacing part of it. Like, Gafford and lively never really have to go after anybody. They don't. I mean, maybe somebody ends up in a switch, but the whole point is you would hope now to be bringing Gafford or lively away from the basketball.

Anything else before we go?

I have nothing interesting of note.

I don't have anything either. I'm bummed that we're going to do a podcast in a week and basketball may have ended by five days earlier. We have to come up with some sort of crazy gimmick for a week from now.

Redraft the 66 draft.

Which draft?

1960. 619.

66.

Yeah. Is that Richard put me on the spot. I think of something better.

We'll come up with something. All right, let's, let's call this potapod. Thanks, Kyle Creighton and Steve Ceruti. Really weird. Usually this week right after Memorial Day is an awesome basketball stretch where we just have games every night and stuff talk about and we could be done and 48 hours. So hopefully somebody will keep it going. And then hopefully it's not Indiana. Hopefully it's Minnesota. Priscilla, good to see you.

Thanks, Bill. My first. I don't have to ever close.