Coming up, part 2. Minnesota did it. What the hell? That's next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatch was going up Monday night. Back to the Future, part 2. Don't forget, you can watch that on our Ringer Movies channel on YouTube as well. Don't forget about Fairway Roll. Joe House, Nathan Hubbert, breaking down Xana Shoffly, winning the PGA Championship. If you missed part one of this podcast, Racela and I talked about Nicks and Pacers, and we talked about OKC in Dallas and what a Indiana-Boston series is going to look like. Part two, at halftime, I did not expect this would be the podcast we would be doing. I was eating some Indian food, and that was a mistake because I'm a little groggy. But then I was a little groggy for the Minnesota game. Rizelda carried part 2 for us, but it's a good one. It's next. Minnesota beats Denver. Game 7. Holy shit. First, our friends from Pro Jam.

All right, taping this 7:40 Pacific Time.

Just watch Minnesota make an unbelievable comeback in Denver. I cannot wait to talk to Rusillo about this. Rusillo. At halftime of the Knicks Pacers game, the Knicks were down, I think 15. There was a stat about the biggest game seven halftime comeback ever, and it was 11 points. It was the biggest game seven halftime comeback ever. It was Golden State in 1975 against Chicago. Then our guy Steph Curry did it against Houston in 2018. Eleven was the record. Until today, Minnesota came back from 15 down. I think they had a 54 to 24 run at one point, and they took the belt from the champs, at least for this round. What was the biggest thing that jumped out of you this game, other than having about seven heart attacks?

That I just can't believe it actually happened. Because if you were going to lay it all out, I picked Minnesota in the series, but it wasn't like I was walking around today being like, Yeah, at Denver, no problem. They'll figure it out. When I saw Jokuj standing up for the 6-8 minutes, and everybody was sending out that picture from game 6 when Minnesot was up 50, you're like, Uh-oh, this could be bad. The game was playing out a way that a lot of these games played. I love this series. I love this series, but we haven't had these amazing finishes in them. I just like how different it's been. I think these are the two best teams in the NBA, and maybe we'll get into that a little bit, but that it actually happened, that they pulled this off, this team that's just... This is, I guess, year two of this group, but it's not like it was a deep run last year, but they actually did it and that Ant was this bad throughout most of the game, and they were able to do it.

Yeah, it's funny. He was 6 for 24, which was a famous stat line, Kobe 2010 Finals. And yet I thought he was a huge part of this game. I liked the way he played. His shot wasn't going in. They're throwing two, three people at him, and he had to slowly figure out over the course of the game, how can I still affect this game with my offense when they're just basically putting this wall in front of me? And what took it over for him, they put him on Murray at some point in the third quarter, and Murray disappeared. And he did the best job guarding Jamal Murray I've ever seen anybody do. And the defense got the offense going a little bit. They got some steals, some turnovers. But it was reminiscent of Kobe in that game seven, where it went from seeming like it was going to be this just historic disaster for him. And something mentioned in the first sentence of his NBA basketball reference whenever we talked about him. So he flipped the game and he started pounding the rim. He got rebounds and he just figured out how to affect it with his defense all these different ways.

And I thought it was such a special ant game because Sometimes when you're not playing well, that's where you have to show how good of a basketball player you are. You can have games where the ball goes in and it looks great, but it's games like this when you just have to figure, I don't really have it. How else can I help the team? Then Towns gets in foul trouble, and you could just see Edwards and then Nasri. They were just trying to lift each other up. I thought it was really cool. I think this team is really in on each other and really sticks up for each other. There's no ego show it all with these guys. They just want to win, and they showed it.

Yeah, they were sending doubles of him with zero caution. If Kat had it at the top of the key and then swung it to Ant, Katz guy would just come to double Ant. They just didn't care.

They're like, Go ahead. Jokuj was coming up, Jokuj was coming up, too. Sometimes there was a triangle in front of them.

So one of the things that they lost this series, I think they would have gone back and looked at it and saying, if there's any way that you can dribble away from the double or throw it to somebody get it right back because usually the double doesn't stay with you. There has to be more at the rim. There has to be more there with the drives. We saw Ant try to do it, but one of the most frustrating plays when I thought at that point, I'm like, All right, where is this game going to go? He was on a drive and he threw it off to Rudy to his side. I'm like, What is going on? But you're absolutely right about the defense. Yeah, you're absolutely right about the defense. He was incredible. This defense that was as impressive as anything I've seen all season in the first half of game two. Now, I don't know that it was exactly that again throughout it all, but Nas Reid coming in, and he decided to attack. He had his layup where he didn't want to pass it to Rudy when Rudy was wide open at the baseline.

Rudy made a great play on an offensive rebound to even keep one of the other possession is alive. Then, Kat has that follow dunk where I think it was Pope just fell asleep and let him crash the rim. That was the game. Kat had some really good moments offensively, and they needed to carry Ant because 6 of 24 If you were going to say, Hey, the Timberwolves are going to win, and Ant's going to go 6-24, he'd be like, Well, what? There's no way that happened. And it did.

He had seven assists, two steals, eight rebounds. I looked up at one point, the Nuggets 69 combined for Yoka Jamari. So this is the same thing I looked up. So the other guys in Denver scored 21 points. We can go in all the Minnesota stuff, but Michael Porter Jr, Aaron Gordon wasn't rebounding at all for some reason. Caldwell Pope didn't have it. Nobody on their bench came through and gave them any game seven or rational conference boost. So you said the 6 for 24 thing with Ant. I'd flip it. If I told you everyone on Denver, not name, Jokuj Mur, is going to score 21 points in this game, we would have been like, Oh, that sounds not great. I thought this was a pretty good Jokuj Mur game for the most part, but the other guys let him down. I don't know. The league's better than it was last year. They don't have Bruce Brown. The Porter game, the last, I don't know, at least three stinkers from him in this series, too, right? No.

The last four games, he scored a total of 25 points. He was the third leading scorer tonight with seven. Aaron Gordon played 42 minutes, had four points, four rebounds. Maybe the rebounds there because Jokuj was insane with the rebounding, especially in the first half. But still, it's hard to play 42 minutes and have four points and four rebounds. So the two You guys did it, even if maybe just because of the status that we have Jokuj at, you're like, I actually needed more out of you offensively. I needed a little bit more. He went 0 for 7 on his, I think, first seven three-point attempts. He had a couple there later in the game. But throughout all of the different stuff that's happened in this series, it's funny to think that the guy that probably impeded Jokuj the most was Kat.

I'm glad you brought this up. There's so many winners and losers from this game in this series, and I made a list at halftime, and half of the guys who I had as winners or losers, they either flipped one way or the other way, or then I had a new guy. Towns, a guy I wouldn't say is either of our favorite player, right?

No, he was good tonight.

He was really good today. He did pick up the ridiculous fifth foul. We're like, Oh, no, you were doing so well. It was like watching a little kid in the playground like, Oh, no. You threw sand at somebody. Why? Why? You were having such a fun time with everybody. But I thought he kept him in it in the first half when he didn't have anything. I thought his defense on Jokuj was really good, and I really liked how he played. I thought that was a breakthrough game for him. Am I crazy?

No, but it is funny because what Nas did when he came off, they were going to bring him back in. So I was like, What's going to happen here?

They really did it. I mean, they didn't have to, though, because Nas came in, and that was one of three times the game flipped. Nas had that huge on Jokić in the big putback dunk. At that point, then Edwards had the back break three in terms. Now all of a sudden, it was 92, 82 out of nowhere, and Towns wasn't involved in any of that.

Yeah, and then Rudy fouls out, so Kat comes back in to close it. But It was just a weird game. I mean, game services are weird. Whatever happened to the home court thing, it's over. It's just if you cut the NBA history by a certain line, it used to be what? 80%, maybe, 82% of the time, teams won, or maybe I'm confusing, game Five.

It used to be over eight.

It just used to be like you lose that game. For whatever reason, recent history tells you that home court hasn't meant as much with this. But I'm just really impressed. I'm just incredibly impressed with this group finding a different way to win. Finding a different way to win against a team in Denver where you're like, Okay, what's the score going to be? They're going to be at home, Jogich and Murray and all these different things. You just expect it. Every possession is going by being like, They're screwed up offensively. This defense has cranked it up a level here, and everybody's contributing. Even McDaniels, too, deserves love for having a couple of big offensive games because he's just capable of having a four or six-point dud in there. All these other guys stepped up and beat a team that I would have picked against Dallas, a team in Denver that I would have picked against the Boston Indy winner. I just would have picked Denver the rest of the way, and they found a way to get him at their place. I mean, it's incredible.

Jokuj played 23 minutes in the first half He ended at 13, 15, 5 in the first half.

I know.

They started the second quarter. Altitude. I thought he looked tired. It felt like he just needed a blow at some point. The fact that Minnesota could just bring Nas Reid off the bench as this fresh, like some reliever in the ninth ending, coming in and just throwing 103 miles an hour. I don't think that was helping matters.

They played seven guys in that. I mean, Kyle Anderson only played four minutes.

Which was, I think, the move, right? Did you feel like at halftime, they were going to dump Gobert?

Well, my biggest issue with this game, and if it had gone the other way, this would have come up, but I still think it's a relevant point, is that Rudy was ending up with a ball way too much. It's just too many possessions where you're like, Okay, well, I understand defensively what you think you have. But some of you guys, and that's why I thought that Nas Reid layup was so interesting because he didn't have great balance. But he's like, If I just lean over this way, and Rudy got his hands up ready for the catch, and Nas is like, No. But I just am never going, I don't care win or lose. Even though Rudy threw in that prayer with five seconds left in the shot clock, which was ridiculous. At that point, you're like, Maybe it's Minnesota's night. I just am never going to be a huge fan of when Rudy ends up in the ball in his hands as many times as he did in the first half tonight. But the defense and that offensive rebound he had late was such a huge offensive rebound that I just don't think coaches do the stuff that we always wonder if they'll do.

Yeah. Well, they had 11 offensive rebounds I'm glad you brought up that turnaround. So Minnesota, I think, had five or six shots in the second half where you go, What the fuck? That went in? There was one where Nas Reid got... It looked like he almost got a hit, and he just flung it with his left hand and it just like line drived in from 5 feet. Mcdaniels had one. Gobert had that one when he was going down the middle and he just flung it off the backboard and it went in. And they started adding up. And I always keep track of that because it's It's basically like this stat that they don't keep track of on basketballreference. Com or the how the fuck did that go in shots. Then when Gobert made that crazy turnaround, that was the first time I was like, holy shit, Minnesota might actually win this game. But I kept waiting for the late Denver run. I tweeted at one point, I thought it was going to go in overtime because I just thought we've seen it so many times with Denver that as soon as the game calmed down a little with three, four minutes left, they were just going to do their thing.

The problem for them was they were just doubling Jokuj basically the whole time, and really from the first quarter, he only had... I don't even think he got... He got seven assists, and they missed some shots from him. But for the most part, they were basically imploring him to pass to everybody else, and then nobody else could make a shot. So I thought that was smart. 34 points for him, 47 minutes, but it just didn't feel... It feel like they were a little discombobulated. And the defense by Minnesota in the second half was on par with the game two defense, I thought, right?

I don't know that I'd put it at that just because it was those first 24 minutes, because when I'm looking at how it was, it was like 61, 55, and Denver still has the lead. Kat, at that point, had 17 points, he's 6 for 11. And he just had a bad turnover. But I was tracking some of the threes, like Jokić, KCP, Porter Jr. Jokić had a nice step back that he usually always hits. There are four in that stretch where I'm like, these are all really good looks. But- You're right. Whether you can combine... I don't know if it's the exact same thing, because I do think it's hard for somebody like Anne at this stage of his career to be like, okay, I want to make the right play. I don't want to force anything, so I'm going to actually get rid of a ball. And the doubles were so hard. It wasn't like, hey, let's be tricky with these and disguise them. It's just we don't care. This is what we're going to do. And lucky enough, Minnesota had enough balance around it to not end up being something where it's like, Okay, we're really stuck because nobody else is making any shots.

I wonder if that just throws Ant's rhythm off, where it's like, If nothing's ever really felt all that comfortable, and then that adds to everything else. And that's the task that is attached to the great ones. We're like, Hey, you still need to go ahead and figure this out. Where with Denver, there's all these good looks, I thought, even during that stretch, where, yes, some of it's definitely the defense, but there were other times I'm like, Man, you guys are just... I don't know if they started feeling themselves up 20 because you're not thinking There's no way if you're Denver, you think you're blowing a 20-point lead to Minnesota.

They were 8 for 33 from 3. Yeah, I took notes as... Especially for this game, I wanted to take notes as it went along. In the first note I had in the third quarter was, Minnesota gets it to 6,157. I don't understand what happened. They had a 19 to 3 run, and it didn't feel like anything substantial was happening, but all of a sudden, they were just getting stops and scoring on the other side. At some point, it was like, Oh, this is 10. Oh, this is eight. Denver just looked a little flustered. It was the spot, especially last year, where they would get Porter or Bruce Brown or somebody else would start making a couple of plays for them. It just didn't happen for them today. I just thought it was such a fascinating Edwards game. My memory of this game 20 years from now will be Ant, who is clearly going to be a really special player, barring a dream. The shit that he's done in the playoffs now, we are now on the track for something truly, truly, truly special. It's games like this that form somebody's career. It's when you don't have it, how do you figure out How else to impact the game?

And he did it. I never felt like... You and I have watched a lot of Edwards. I never felt like he lost his confidence. They never showed him where I was like, oh, Ants rattled. Oh, Ant doesn't look like he has it or Ants got like, darty eyes or anything. It just looked like he was like, I know what's happening. I got to figure out how to solve this. But I never felt like he was rattled. It's so unusual for a 22-year-old. It's really about as uncommon as it gets for the NBA, in my opinion.

I don't know if I'm all the way there with you, but I think your point is stronger by when you remind us of the defense that he stayed in it defensively, where there's other players that are scores when they're not scoring, then the two things are connected. The fact that he was like, All right, I got to figure something out, like the steal on Murray and then the dunk. That was just another reminder, a bit like the game Tuesday stuff they were talking about. It's like, okay, you're not going to just be able to bring the ball up. You're just not going to be able to. I can't wait to see what they try to throw at Dallas because McDaniels just isn't stout enough. I imagine Anne will get a chance as well. They'll probably try a bunch of different things. But it's so brutal when you can't get into your offense as quick as you're used to getting into it. There was, I think, a five and a half minute stretch during this entire Minnesota run to come back and get this game where Denver doesn't score a point or didn't make a field goal.

I think there might have been a free throw in there where they didn't score for five and a half minutes. Yeah, credit to the defense stuff, but you just- Wait, one more thing on the Ant piece.

He didn't do the thing either, where it's not for me. I'm just going to frantically drive to the basket in the seven people. He was driving in the basket, but he was still kicking out, and he was making the right plays and setting up people. I never felt like he lost control of the game, where we've watched other young players in that situation. Sometimes, especially with younger players, I feel like now they're pressing too much. Now I can see they're doing this. But he just put all of his energy in the defense and just trying to continue to get into the paint. It was weirdly a good 6 for 24. I don't know how to put it. I don't feel that bad about it. He airballed a shot at one point. I don't feel good about that. He bricked some threes and I'm like, Oh, my God, is this just going to go south? And it didn't. He fought out of it.

Right. But I feel like whatever was waiting for him, if they don't pull this off, it's like, Oh, the guys that liked him, liked him, and they still like him. I don't look at Jokić today going, Okay, we There are certain players that I feel a certain way about. Even players who I don't like, I don't expect them to score zero points all the time in the playoffs. This is what it turns into a little bit. So had they lost, Ant gets crushed, and then it's like, Okay, well, he had a really bad game in a huge spot.

I would not have crushed him for the bad game. I'm thinking more like the fact that they won and pulled it out. What does that mean compared to some of the great players we've seen in the past? Because Kobe had that moment, and maybe they lose next It's not going to matter as much. But Kobe had that moment in the finals in Indiana when Shaq fouled out, and he had to lift the team, basically. And it was like, Oh, can he do this? I was like, Oh, okay, he can do this. Lebron had that moment against Detroit in '07 when it was like, Well, if you don't score every time, your team's going to lose. He was like, Oh, maybe I can score every time. And he scored 25 straight. Edwards in this game, it's like, Hey, unless you become a two-way player on the highest possible level and you start actually making a couple of plays and shots, and you shut down more in the other and you guys aren't winning. And then he actually did it. So I don't know what this means from going forward, but I thought it was a good checkpoint for him to hit, I guess, is my point.

Let's take a break. I want to go through some of the The Winners and losers because that is a bountiful list. All right, so some winners and losers, and we can just talk about this one at a time. At halftime, it felt like the anti-Gobert Trade Take people, we were going to be winners. They're like, See? Told you. And then what happens? Second half, it's Rudy actually did some good stuff in the second half, I thought, and was not a detriment. I was thinking in the first half, to get Ant going, they were going to have to take him out so they could spread the floor for him and give him more space. Turned out it didn't matter. But he had some good moments. He had some good rebounds.

7-9 free throws. That was huge.

Yeah, made a couple of free throws. He was ending up on the ball so much, and then he got fouled a lot on those catches.

When you look at his total shot attempts, he only had seven field goal attempts. It felt like he ended up with a ball a ton in the first half. The guy made his free throws and the Aaron Gordon stuff that was him bringing the ball up, him running on the dunker spot, having those burst moments for four, six minutes where Denver feels like, Okay, cool. Gordon's doing stuff. Maybe it'll open up something for the rest of us here, and then it doesn't happen. Yeah, Rudy. I just don't want to update the Rudy trade every 24 hours.

No, we're going to. That's what we're going to do on Sunday. Jokuj in a loss, 34, 19, and 7. This series for him reminded me a little of Yannis and that Milwaukee-Boston series the year after they won when Yannis was just awesome. Then Boston beat them anyway and beat them for reasons that really didn't have a lot to do with Yannis. You still left the series going, Wow, Yannis is incredible. I'm still going to leave this series thinking, wow, Jokuj is incredible. His third quarter in game five is...

I saw something where it was arguably one of the two best quarters in playoff history based on his shooting point total and the assists and all that stuff. Yeah, I'll admit. I think I have him just such an absurd standard that maybe I wanted a little bit more from him offensively down the stretch. But he's not just going to take a million bad shots. It's just not who he is. So if he had taken five more shots and went one of five. Will we say he was more aggressive? But yeah, I'm basically there with you. I think the Yana's comp is perfect because sometimes these guys are this good when they lose, I'm not going to go like, All right, got to move them down now.

Two for 10 from three. And didn't protect the boards. Minnesota got a couple of offensive boards. See, we're taping this. I didn't get a chance to watch the second half again and really study it, but it felt like all of a sudden, they felt a little OKC-ish trying to protect the boards.

So Murray- He had a couple of catches, though. He had that one three, and Reggie did point it out. On the catch, He was hesitant. I feel like I see this a lot from guys where they pass on the better look on the catch and then they set themselves into a worse look. And he had one of those. But I'm nitpicking here.

Murray finished with 35. He had 24 in the first half. And It looked like we were going to have to update the... If Denver had won, one of the segments I wanted to do with you were, how many guards would you take before we get to Murray and go through that? But then Denver ends up blowing the game, so we're not going to have to do that. But the Jokuj-Murri combo, which I still think is really special. Denver won last year. Minnesota hasn't won yet. There's a hunger level that I feel like factors in just a whiff in games this, where when you've been there and you've been the hunted one for the entire season, plus the playoffs, versus the team, that's like, this will be literally the highlight of my career if we win this game. And you could feel it a little bit. Denver just looked a little tired to me and a little static compared to Minnesota who just... You see their bench, the entire bench is fucking losing their minds on every basket, every block, everything. It's the law of the NBA.

I don't know who has a good time being outscored 54, 24. But you're right about Minnesota. We're getting work by 30 since we were up 20, but hey, let's start high. Deirdre, you want to get a cheer going?

Hey, you want to start the wave? Okay, so- They seem shell-shocked. The fact when Minnesota came back as fast as they did, I thought their demeanor changed for Denver when it was like 6157. Felt different.

You're not a little shell-shocked that this actually happened?

Oh, I am.

I am?

It didn't seem real until Anne hit the three. Even when they're up seven with the ball, I'm like, I really thought we were headed to overtime or something. And Anne hit the three, the turnaround, and to turn around and turn her off the court side.

When Kat couldn't get it inbounded and it was a turnover, I was like, Wait, is this going to be one of these all-time moments of remember when they were up eight and all this bad stuff happened? There was part of me that was like, Oh, no. Here's the great thing about to win. We'll never think about that play again.

Another winner loss. A loser, I think, is Denver as we started thinking about what run could this team go on. Their window was the two years before they won the title when Murray missed, last year, this year, and probably two more, and there's a bunch of teams coming. Now they've won one title and that's it, which makes them no different than Milwaukee, which makes them no different than Kauai and Toronto, et cetera. I think we'll be hearing from them again. I'm sure they'll probably go into the lab. Kyle Mann texted this to me, actually. I thought it was an interesting question. Does this loss, if you're Denver, make you start to think you need to do something a little more drastic than that? Do you start thinking about beyond Yoke and Jim Murray and Gordon, I think, You start looking at that Michael Porter spot a little more seriously. Hey, is this something we should move on?

Well, the problem whenever we bring up this stuff is just, okay, but How bold do you want to get for a team that was right there and being a one seed until the last weekend who may have lost to the eventual champs because this was an absurd second-round matchup. If there was a player that was really good, that was unhappy, and then it's like, I actually want to play in Denver, which is a great athlete city, but I don't know that people ever think of it as a destination. Anybody that's ever played sports there is like, Oh, wait. Everybody always seems to keep a house there because Colorado is awesome, but it's never thought of as an NBA destination. If you were talking about playing style, if you were a star that was a little bit older and you're like, Okay, I want to go play with that guy, Jokić, because he's going to make my life that much easier. So there's a lot of reasons. But to get that bold, something would have to be available. Porter Jr, it was a bad series. It just was. And he's really expensive for a one-dimensional guy.

But during that Lakers series, he was incredible. He kept them in some of those games, where if it weren't for him, I still don't know that they were going to lose to the Lakers in seven. But Porter Jr. Kept them in some of those games when nobody else could really get anything going, especially with some of the Murray stuff. Even though he hit the game winners, it wasn't like he was just dominant all those games. The great thing about Porter Jr that I love from Bob Myers, who was on one of the calls of the game, he ended up with 23 and 8, and the shooting numbers are absurd, 55 and 49 from three. Bob was like, this is the stuff with Myers that I like on the broadcast. I know it's the first year and everything, but he's sharing with you what his evaluation was of certain players. He's like, these rebounding numbers. And then he had dove for a loose ball. He goes, I can't believe Michael Porter Jr is diving for a loose. He's like, I never had that in his scattering report. I actually think there were some great playoff moments for him where he was more well-rounded as opposed to, he's not going to pass the ball all the time.

We know what his game is at this point. So with his injury history, I'm sure they would... If it was some other player, we're like, Okay, this completely raises our ceiling. But they're just, look, when we pencil in the best three or four teams next year, Denver is on the list this version of it already. So as much as other teams are coming and OKC and whatever happens around... Here, let me put it to you this way. I remember in '18, when we were doing the show together and Boston lost to Cleveland in game seven, all right? And you were like, this sucks because the window, this is going to change, this is going to change. All these things change, but we always assume that that change is going to be much more of a positive with all of these teams. I think that's a mistake that we make.

I am in the, I think they keep the nucleus together and add around the fringes and try to get a deeper bench. The fact that Payton Watson didn't play, that was somebody that they were really counting on, right? During the season in the playoffs. One of their bets was our young guys are going to fill in those Bruce Brown minutes. It didn't happen.

Yeah, that's how they drafted, too.

The Porter Series, his last four games, three for twelve, three for nine, two for ten, two for four. They have nine rebounds today, but for the most part, was not an awesome series. I honestly felt like they needed them. In the Laker series, he would have those little stretches where he would just kick ass three minutes, and they just didn't have that today.

Yeah, it's the worst game. They actually won.

What you laid out, I think you're right, is they'll add around the fringes, but it's just questions that I wouldn't have expected to ask, because I think the bigger question for me is, was this the finals? If you're thinking, We just lost the finals, that's a different than, We just lost them round two, because I think these are the two best teams. I'm not going to say either of those teams would have beaten Boston, but I think Boston is going to be underdogs against either of these teams, unless Porzengus is 100%, which he's already missing the first 2-3 games in round three at this point.

I'm just not going to look at this as like, Hey, the loser of the series couldn't get... Hey, I thought they were good. They couldn't get out of the second round. I'm like, I don't know. I'm with you. Before it started as the series was playing out, I was like, I almost feel like this is the finals. We're not supposed to get a team for a matchup between two teams like this in the second round.

With that said, it's a worse loss for Denver than it is for Minnesota because Minnesota could have been like, Hey, man, now we know what it takes. Sure. Whereas Denver is trying to protect the title. A winner, co-winners, Devante Graham and Victor Wembenyama, who actually affected the title because that Friday night game ends up sending Denver into the 2-3 round 2, and they could have been in the one seed, getting no Zion, New Orleans. They could have gone Dallas in round 2 and not seeing Minnesota, maybe at all. Instead, Devante Graham, who probably those are probably the last baskets he'll score in the NBA, I'm guessing.

I think he could still score some points for somebody.

I like the fact that Wemby effected the title. Loser, Michael Jordan.

Okay.

Yeah.

How?

Because at halftime, it's like, Yeah, fucking. Here is the latest comer, and I sucked in game seven. I'm still the goat. Now, it's like, I don't know. I don't know, MJ, you never won a title when you were 22. Wow. Yeah. I don't believe it. I'm just throwing it out there. It's rarely you get to put a Winners and Losers with Michael Jordan in it. But now, listen, No 22-year-old and under, other than Kobe, I'm pretty sure, has won the title. Jordan didn't do it. Lebron didn't do it. I think Bill Russell did I don't know how old he was when they won the first title, but he was around 22. But this is a whole other level of historical shit if Minnesota can actually win two more rounds. We'll see what happens. We mentioned Towns as a winner. Chris Finch Emotional. He brought the crutches out. I don't know if you noticed. I felt like he was up off the bench a little bit more. But him and Mike Nori figuring out how to coach this team together in a really weird situation and pull off a game seven win in Denver, I think co-winners for me.

Micah has enough. Yeah, he's just so much credibility built up with this team just because of his personality being around. But I still think it's a little overstated. I mean, Finch is sitting right there. What do you think Micah is going to do? He can't move, though. Yeah, but what do you think he's going to do? Can't argue with the rest.

He argued with the rest. Can't pull Anthony Edwards over to talk to him during time out, tell him to settle down. It's not nothing.

It's way less than people made it out to be. He's right there. Do you think Micah is turning around going, Hey, sorry, dude, you're sitting down. I've got this.

Hey, could you let it seem like I'm in charge just a little bit more? Why wouldn't the Lakers want Mike Norea as their coach?

The only thing I can think of with their coaching search is that It's being run by Kurt Rampis? No, that they're just going to want more sex appeal post-Vogel and Ham. I think it should be Borrego, but I don't know if he's going to be sexy enough for them.

If Borrego gets a job, are you going to be on the bench?

No, I don't think so.

Second row, Rosillo?

I have a harder time getting credentials from the Lakers and the Clippers, so I don't think I would be on the bench. Look, I'm a huge Borrego fan. I've had them on the pot a couple of times. But for anyone that watched some of those Charlotte teams that were terrible. Then every night you'd be like, All right, which fourth quarters do I have to get on? Because it's a good way to rotate through League Pass. You're like, All right, let me watch a full fourth quarter of this game that I wasn't normally going to watch. Start to finish. They're just all these Charlotte games where I'm like, How are they in this game? How are they possibly in this game? And he's got the Spurs background. I hope he gets a chance to do it. I just don't know if... You know what I would like? I'd like to see JJ get it. For content? No, I think JJ could get it, but then it would be hilarious if they don't win enough and then he gets fired and LeBron on their podcast together says, I actually never wanted you to be my head coach.

They're drinking wine? Yeah. Kurt Rambis did that.

And by the way, that's not a dig at JJ at all. I think you understand what I'm saying.

Why are you worried about what JJ thinks?

I think I'm booked to go on next week.

Chris Finch. Mentioned him. Do we mention Team USA?

No, no one's more on team. You're the most patriotic guy ever. You really are a Patriot.

Team USA standpoint, Steve Kerr is rooting for Denver to probably win, right? Because that means you're putting more miles on Murray heading into the Canada side of things. Ant gets pulled out of the playoffs. Now he could just devote himself to getting ready. Now, this flips the other way. Murray has more time. Jokuj has more time. Ant's going to be in the grind for at least two more weeks. It could be good for you as a team USA, too. Nas Reid, big winner, vindicated the sixth Man of the Year award.

He was huge.

Those minutes were so- Would you vote for Munch or Reid?

I voted for Munch, second. I voted Nas first. And he had a huge block on Jokuj, too, when it was up around the rim. The Nas minutes were incredible down the stretch. I mean, it's just what a weapon to be able to go, Hey, we need a third guy who can balance out our other two bigs and could also stretch the floor. It's incredible, the job that Conley and this front office did, of identifying him. I have a winner for you.

Can I make a Nas Reid point really quick and then give me your winner?

Please.

There's certain guys that if you were in a coma for 10 years and you came out of the coma and you watched a quarter of a basketball game and you saw a guy playing like Nas Reid played today, and you would ask, Is that one of the five best players in the league? Which is its own weird NBA list of guys who for six minutes can seem like they're a second-team NBA player. Nas Reid is definitely on that list. If you catch Nas Reid for the right five minutes, he seems like he's just, I don't know, a five-time All-Star.

And by the way, correction on me. I knew as soon as I said But he was there before. So that was Gershon.

What was your winner?

Lawyers.

How come?

Lawyer fees for the Mark-Lauri A-Rod Taylor fight.

Oh, that's now going into round three. Yeah, they showed A-Rod a couple of times.

There's nothing more A-Rod than... I guess it's actually strategically the right move, is if you're in this battle for this team that apparently you couldn't pay for, although it seems pretty nasty how it all went down. It feels a bit like Taylor was like, Hey, we're this good? Well, I don't want to sell it. How can I get out of this? Look, I've read everything on it, and it did make me laugh a bit that I was like, There's nothing more A-Rod than just showing up and sitting courtside for all this stuff. When it's in dispute. But that's actually probably the move that you do it. Here we have both teams in the Western Conference finals. Because to think of Cuban of the time he sells it, where I still can't quite figure that one out either. Wait, he sold his team?

Makes no sense. Well, Arod is still a pretty big minority owner.

Yeah, you're right. I'm being unfair. I'm being totally unfair. I don't think you're being unfair at all because it's still weird to see him there when it's Every time you see him, you're like, Oh, lawsuit.

Legal fight. It's just the reaction. I think it would be way more fun if he hadn't won the 2000... I mean, every part of life would be more fun if he hadn't won the 2009 World Series and the Yankees hadn't won that year because Then we would be able to do the whole, The Yankees haven't really won this century unless you count 2000 as a year of this century, which is a big point of dispute. Some people think 2000 is part of the 20th century because it's the last year of the 20th century. Other people say, The new century starts with 2000. I don't know if you have an opinion on this.

No, I remember, though, a manager came in to me to make fun of the Red Sox after the Red Sox had won their fourth one or something. He was a Yankee fan, and he came in during a commercial break to go like, Oh, my God. He's like, You can't believe... Because everybody knew I wasn't weird about it anymore. He started making fun of the Red Sox, and I was like, Do you really think you should be doing that anymore? After '04? I was like, Can you still do stuff like this to people that are Red Sox guys? It was just very terse in one of the ways that I can deliver a rebuttal to something. Then he just left the studio, and guys were like, That was rude. I was like, Sorry.

Mike Conley, winner?

Big time.

Only made one conference final that got swept by my calculations. Now he's back. Happy for him. Minnesota has a slew of I'm happy for you people. I'm even happy for Rudy Gobert. One of the great guys. Yeah.

Good for Rudy. Good for Kat.

Good for those guys. Any other winners and losers? Do you think Denver fans saw this coming at halftime?

No.

I don't think they had any conceivable knowledge that that was coming.

You want a stat? This is from Dave Mcminiman. So Ant finishes with four points at the half. Minnesota this season, regular season in play-offs combined, is now eight and one when Ant has less than five points in the first half of the game.

Why is that?

Balance, defense, things we saw tonight. Second half, Ant, but we didn't really get it. I know he had nine in the third quarter and then the dunk in the three, but that's crazy.

Let's take one more break. We'll talk about Minnesota-Dallas. All right, Minnesota, Dallas, round three. If you're running the NBA, is this more exciting to you than Denver, Dallas? Would you rather have there, or would you rather have Jokuj going for a repeat? Just from a narrative standpoint.

Look, the runway that's in front of Ant of like, could he actually to really do this? Years before you're supposed to really do this. We're supposed to go through a phase of when first takes leading the show going, I thought this guy was good. That's usually the way it works. You have to be everybody's favorite It's an absurd approval rating. I think the Ant part of this is the bigger payoff for the NBA than the Denver Jokaj story lines.

Ant first, Lucas. I agree with And first, Luka is incredible. Boston, Indiana, maybe not the same sweeping high ceiling stakes. But I also like the fact that this is just a really cool basketball matchup. Like you mentioned earlier, Minnesota doesn't totally have the perfect person to guard Luka, not that other teams do, but they don't have that prototypical 6'7, 6'8, 6'9 guy with some size and a little bit of to be able to stay with them or like a Lou Dore type. There's nobody really on the... I think McDonald's is probably too small for him. You agree? They'll use him on him, but I think he's too small.

But here's the thing, as much as Dore is the absolute a type of the guy that you would want, if Dore were actually even taller, great, creative player type of thing, whenever I start looking at their matchups, they'll be like, Oh, they'll have somebody for this guy. It doesn't matter. They all end up with like 30, 10, and 10 anyway. They just do.

Kyrie is a better match up for them, I think, because they had just a bunch of people to throw at him and frustrate him. They also have size to throw out for those corner threes. They have bigger guys that can come over and try to contest. They have some real size, unlike what Dallas went against in that OKC series. Who do you think is favorite, if you had to guess?

I think Minnesota is.

Because game one is in Minnesota, which means game seven will also be in Minnesota. So for the series, Minnesota minus 172, which seems high to me.

Really?

I would have thought it would be in the minus 140 to minus 150 range. The regular season stuff. The regular season stuff.

Minnesota won the season series 3-1, but you go through it. Luka missed two of the games, Kyrie missed three, and all four of the games were before the trade deadline. So not sure what that means.

Do you think the Celtics are a minus or a plus favorite to win the title right now?

I think they're probably a minus because I swear every year the models overvalue Boston so much.

Boston minus 165 on FanDuel. Minnesota is plus 290, Dallas 5 to 1. Indy is 25 to 1 if you're feeling long shots.

Yeah, that's the other part of it, too. You're not going up against Dallas and Minnesota in the Eastern Conference Finals.

Celtics, Minnesota now minus 145. All right, so going forward. Well, first of all, who do you think is going to win Minnesota-Dallas?

I'm going to pick Minnesota.Explain. You? I'm really impressed with Dallas, and I know this turns into, well, I'm further along with Dallas and going like, all right, before Before the play I started, I'd be like, All right, well, I'm not going to pick Dallas. Just really impressed with everything from them. But it's a completely different challenge as opposed to the Jalen Williams rotation here. It's a completely different challenge. I still think that they should have done a better job of getting past the first line of defense and then attacking Jokuj more. I think that'd be one of the things. I mean, it won't matter now, but if they had lost That'd be something if you're the coach of staff, you're like, Hey, there might have been more there. But yeah, I just like Minnesota better. I like their depth better. I like their defense better. But Dallas's defense was incredible against OKC. I mean, they shut down a really good offensive team. I want to be respectful about my pick because I'm at a place now with Dallas that I just didn't expect to be with. You?

I think the line should be lower, but I would pick Minnesota because I really felt like that Minnesota-Demba series at some point turned into Whoever wins this is probably the team I think should win the title. I don't think that means they will win the title. But if you told me Porzingis was 100% right now, I'd really rethink it because you and I both watch every minute of both those Minnesota-Boston games, and those games are really close and really good. And the teams were, I thought, neck and neck with each other. I remember, I think even saying it on the podcast, fuck, man, if it's Minnesota in the finals, that's a really bad matchup for the Celtics. They have wings in size to throw on Tatum and Brown. I just don't love the matchup. Now with Porzingas up in the air, I like it even less. I think Minnesota right now is in the driver's seat for the title. It doesn't mean they're going to win, but they know they have home court this round, and then they know they can play with Boston. If you're Boston, you just have to figure out how to get Porzingas back, but then also get him back so that he could play at the pace that you're going to have to play to against that Minnesota team.

The athleticism and speed that they have, if he's 75, 80%, that's going to look pretty awful. I would lean Minnesota right now. I've never been to Minnesota, by the way, Rusillo. I'm sure you've been, right?

No, just the airport a million times. I've never actually gotten out of the airport and walked around Minneapolis. I've never been.

You think A-Rod will bring you? You, A-Rod and Lory just sitting courtside?

I haven't reached out. I haven't. I have a friend that really likes him, and it's not Big Cat. Swear's by him.

Can I give you a couple of other things before we go? Did you see the USSEC fight last night?

No.

Ussec beat- Yeah. Tyson Furie, and it was unbelievable. Ussec, I think he's my favorite heavyweight in a while. First of all, to go from cruiserweight to heavyweight is just ridiculous. I don't think people get enough credit when they do that. Holyfield did it, too. But just to set... Because once you get to cruiser rate, then the divisions just become these giant weight swings. You could go from fighting a 195 guy to fighting a 275 guy. There's no other jump like that. It looked like Fury was going to just lean on him and beat him down, and he was starting to tag him with the little uppercuts and little overhands. And Usik just flipped it. He just has a way of There's certain fighters that were always able to do this. César Chávez was like that. Hopkins was like that, where as the fight goes along, they figure out the opponent and the little angles. It was really good. I think you'd like it. You should watch it. Yeah, I'll check it out.

Fury's right. I It's been tough with me with the schedule to add that to it. Was it after Dallas's win last night?

No, it was before. It was because it was in Saudi Arabia.

You've been in Saudi Arabia?

Undisputed. I've not. It was an undisputed. Any desire? It seems far.

It does seem far.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of work. I was thinking the a lot of work countries. It's not on my list. I really want to go to Australia at some point, But that's 19 hours from here, 17 hours or something.

New Zealand was... I mean, I'm going to do it again. I didn't even think about it. I mean, it was 12, 13 hours, or maybe it was 11 on the way back. But you can probably afford at least first class. I hope so. Yeah, you got to do it. If New Zealand or Australia, which I imagine is just as great as New Zealand is, I've told everybody after my New Zealand thing, I just went, it's actually great that it's that far away because if it were five hours away, people from California would just ruin it. It's so far away that there's just a hesitation.

It's actually work to get there.

Yeah, I used to be weird about flights. For five hours, I'm like, no. But then it's like, okay, so what are you going to do? Never see any of these places. Saudi Arabia, though, based on your research, I would agree. I think it's pretty far.

I want to go. I want to check out the NBL. Maybe a little Australian open.

Who Who's ball break his ball.

What's the guy's name who's going to go first in the draft? Alex Sahr?

Sahr, yeah.

Who's averaging nine points a game in the NBL?

Defensive ceiling is off the charts.

Did you decide yet whether you're going to get into this draft or not?

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to talk about it until I'm ready, and then that'll just be like draft week. That's what I've decided to do. So I'm not... Like somebody, KOC, asked me to come on. He's like, Can you come on? I was like, I haven't watched anybody. But there's no way I'm not going to. There's no way I'm not going to, but I'm just not going to start doing draft content way out. Just to do it? Right. So I'm going to do it just because I like figuring out who you were right about, who you were wrong about, based on watching them. That's part of the story of all of these classes, all of these players that are playing now. I've gone back and I would say, I don't know how many years I started doing it ESPN, but I was doing it before that in Boston. It was just a cool way of seeing the past of like, Oh, my God, that guy was awful. And now look at him. I remember doing the Rudy Gobert stuff and watching him as a prospect going, My God, he can't walk.

Like, he looks like a deer on ice. Yeah.

Yeah. And then to what he's turned himself into. I'll just be too interested in breaking down and looking at guys, but I don't think I'm going to be anybody's go-to, that's for This is my favorite part of the draft process now because I know nothing.

But then we're also at the pump each guy up thing where there was the split screen of Reid Sheppard shooting stats compared to Steph Curry with his measurables. I saw that one where they're like, They're both 6-3. They both shot threes really well. And it's like the side by side. I'm like, Oh, we're here already. Cool. It'd be great. Brian James is like, Davian Mitchell. Oh, all right. We're going to do this. I enjoy it.

As bad as it is at the top, and it is that bad. Teams were talking about this draft like two years out going, Dude, 24 is going to be awful. Trade out of this. It doesn't mean that all 30 guys are going to go in the first. There'll be a couple of guys that are going to make All-Star teams. It's just what's going to happen. But to hope to get the number one pick and then land on it this year, it's just like... I hope ESPN's broadcast, they should have a rule, be like, you can't do player comps of anybody awesome yet.

It has to be no all NBA or higher player comps.

Yeah, that'd be great.

It has to be like, he reminds me of Kevin Herder. And that's it. Kevin Herder is like the ceiling. I texted somebody on one team because I noticed they had a first-round pick. And I was like, how the fuck do you guys have a pick in this draft? Why don't you trade it? He's like, you think we want a pick in this draft? Texted me You think we wanted to keep our pick? He was thinking personally. It's like, You're even picking the... The Knicks have 24 and 25. They might as well set those on fire or just take guys they can stash or something.

That'd be hilarious if they start doing stashing all the way down. And then the Bronnie James stuff, I actually feel bad for him at this point. But people click on it. People click on it. Unfortunately, that's the game. I would add this, though. When I asked the SC guys that I knew, Hey, what did you think of him? They loved him.

Everybody says he's an awesome guy.

Yeah. And there were a few teams that loved him in the interviews. That's something.

6,1-1-1 is tough if you're not a pure point guard, because then you basically have to be Davian Mitchell. Davian Mitchell plays 15 minutes a game for the Kings. And that's the best case scenario of being Davian Mitchell is to actually be Davian Mitchell. Davian Mitchell was- And Davian Mitchell was an awesome college player.

Right. And he was a haunting defensive player.

Right. I'm actually surprised he's not a better pro, and I would be trying to trade for him if I was a GM because I actually think there's a world where he could be in a better spot. But if you're going to compare Bronnie to Davian Mitchell, that gets tough because he just doesn't have the track record yet. I wish he would go back to school. I think it's a clear case of go back, put in one more really a good year in college and then come out. But he clearly just wants to come out. Somebody will probably draft him.

Yeah, I bet he gets drafted.

Because the draft is that bad. Once you get into the '40s and '50s, why not? Yeah, it's a weird one because I usually love the draft and I love all the plots with it. There's sometimes when you think somebody can really help their team, and you see the Spurs with four and eight, and it's like, they should be able to get two guys that could really help them. We know what they need. They need creators. They need connectors. They need shooters. They need shooters. It's like, I don't even know if they can get those guys at four and eight. Can you just find somebody who can throw Wemby in entry pass?

Yeah.

Can you find somebody who can run a pick and roll with them? Is that even possible at number 4 or number 8? Because take that guy.

It would have been even weirder, too, if they had gotten the first or second pick. What if they got the first pick? Are they taking Saar? That doesn't really seem to make a ton of sense.

You know your theory how you would keep taking quarterbacks over and over again until you hit one? I almost wonder if the Spurs should do that at four and eight, just take two creator point cards and hope one of them is good. Maybe they just take both Kentucky guys. Maybe one of them will be good.

That's not a terrible theory based on my limited... Because I know Castle is being spun as a point guard right now for Yukon. Stop. I'm like, Well, it's not... Maybe it was because there were other players there. Apparently, they were like, Hey, if you go back to his high school stuff and all that. But I haven't done any of those things. I mean, he's incredible defensively, and maybe he's still young enough to be able to give you some offense. But I mean, this is the player. You're talking about going three, four, five.

I'm like, Dude. It's pretty rough. What else? So now we're down on one basketball game. When we have a basketball game a day, what else? It's time for you to throw yourself into some dopey side if it's not the draft. Is it maybe sci-fi content?

No, I don't have that. Eric Larson's got a new book out, though. I'm pretty excited about. I already forgot the title, but I did buy it.

New Shane Gillis show comes out Thursday. Tires.

It's Shane Gillis. I'm giving it a chance. You?

Of course.

Wait, I just started- For the most part- Go ahead.

I'm I really miss having a TV show that I'm just out of my mind, excited to watch every week. It's been a while. It feels like we're moving into this different era of prestige. We've been talking about it, trying to figure out how to do the Prestige TV podcast differently, because if there's no Prestige TV shows, do we have to just cover TV differently? Do you cover stuff like tires? Do you just actually do a podcast about that?

Are you thinking about covering tires with a Prestige pod?

The bigger question is, what is the Prestige pod if there's no- Prestige. Mad Men, White Lotus, succession type shows? What do we do with the Prestige pod? Do we morph it into a slightly broader TV podcast? Because some of these shows get mad. That Baby Reinder, which we did a podcast about, but that got fucking massive viewership. It seems like that The models moving that way towards shows like that versus the old-school shows that are trying to be Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad. Quicker shows.

I'm trying What do you think? Wasn't there something that recently... Didn't Shogun get the treatment?

Shogun did. People like Shogun.

I like Shogun.

Yeah, but I don't think- It's been shown. I don't think people were like, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, or Shogun. Shogun.

Probably not.

But people like Shogun. Shogun is good. House of Dragon, people care about.

Yeah, that's right around the corner, right? That's next month.

People care about that. I don't know. I'm already nostalgic for that 10 years ago era. Just some of the greatest shit. It's just not going to happen anymore. All right, we're going to wrap it up. Rosillo, great to see you. I can't believe Minnesota did it. What a series. They win the first two. It seems like they're headed for historical greatness. Denver comes back, wins the next two. Jokuj, game five, has one of the great playoff games. We go back to Minnesota. Minnesota wins by 130 points. Then we go back to Denver for game seven. Minnesota is up 15 and a half time. Then Minnesota turns into Demons again, and they win. Now we have Minnesota-Dallas. What a roller coaster.

I still can't believe it. I can't believe it. I can't believe it actually happened.

I'll see you in a week. Sounds good. Thanks to Kyle Crate and Steve Srudy, as always, for producing. I think I'll see you on Tuesday. On the wayside, on the wayside, I don't have a few years with them. On the wayside, on the wayside, I'm to Kyle Crate and Steve Serutti, as always, for producing. I think I'll see you on Tuesday.