Coming up. I know it's the middle of the week, but we got to talk more basketball next. Also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network, Chris Ryan. What are you up to?

I'm on the watch podcast.

Yeah.

I'm on the Rewatchables podcast with you very often. The big picture podcast.

Yeah. Live show.

Yeah. We just did group chat. I did group chat with Rob and we got a talk the Thrones live show on Tuesday, coming up.

You're busy, guy.

I know. Thanks for having me, though.

Dragon. What's that? Dragon show. What's it called? The Dragon show. Is that what they call it now?

House of the Dragon.

House of the Dragon, yeah. Do you know what House of Dragon.

What year it's set in?

13 hundreds. Rob, are you a dragon show fan?

I need to get up. You know, I'm hoping Chris can coach me up on it. I'm behind, but that's what the offseason is.

When are you going to watch presumed innocent?

Yeah, we got to get you on that.

Is that. It's good. Oh, yes.

It's good.

I know what happened, though? Did they change?

I don't know. Don't tell me what happened. I don't know what happened.

Is it like we. We need to cover it on prestige tv, guys.

We're already covering it. I am covering it with Joanna on prestige tv. Bill, we gotta get you on. Presume this.

As you know, I've been in a Celtics bunker for two weeks now. I'm back, baby.

Yeah.

B's podcast. Next. First, pearl jab.

All right.

Rob Bohoney and Chris Bryan are here. I have a bunch of things. I was on a plane for six and a half hours yesterday, just writing shit down that I didn't get to cover with my dad. Big picture stuff. I also was taking JetBlue and just watching ESPN for a couple hours. So watching all their segments, just scrolling.

Furiously on a napkin.

I was like, really? A lot. I'm like, really, guys? Just talking out loud. And then I watched the replay of the game, which was also interesting. We need to work on our postgame celebration questions. Oh, for, like, Lisa Salt this year? Yeah. We peaked with Stu Scott. And now it's a lot of, like, what does this mean to you, Chris Ryan? How hard was it to win?

Who are you voting for in November? Jason Kaden.

He must be held to account. We got to really press these guys.

Well, let's start. I have a bunch of questions I wrote down. We'll start here. How did the finals MVP vote become a bigger post game story than the Celtics winning the title, going 80 and 21, 46 and six at home and 16 and three at the playoffs. It's just the talk culture we have now. What do you think, Rob?

I mean, I think some of it is once you go up 30 in a series, that's where the attention naturally turns. It would with any team, but especially one like this, where there's kind of open question in the room as to who it should be. It's kind of a perfect storm for it, I think.

So it becomes empty the notebook immediately.

A little bit, and you can see it somewhat the luca conversation in this series, too, where there's just a natural pivot point in the series where we're trying to figure out how to process this stuff and what the takeaway should be. And once it's pretty clear that it's like the Celtics are going to dominate this thing more or less, we have to go somewhere.

I do wonder, though, if it's a trickle down effect of the fact that we're doing NBA NBA MVP straw polls two weeks into the season and who's going to win. The MVP gets way more attention than somebody team that's on a ten game winning streak. You know what I mean? Like it's the nationalization of the NBA where I think that the assumption is that, like, nobody really cares about how any given team is doing with the exception of like say, the Lakers once.

They know they're going to win the title or whatever.

But even over the course of the season, I think that we're way more interested in individual narratives than we are in, like team success or performance.

Well, I think there's something like baseball is obviously very siloed in that way where you follow one team and you see the league through the lens and the of your team. The NBA is not quite like that, but even the real league pass junkies are mostly locked in on a pretty narrow window and they need or want that kind of like, what's my way into understanding what this season is about? And the MVP conversation is a good way to do it.

And I'm watching Wemby to watch Wemby, not to see how the spurs are doing. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm like following the team. I am following the player. But I do think that, I mean, for better or for worse, that's where we've arrived.

I get it during the season because like you said, we go player centric during the season because teams are too volatile, right? You could be like, oh, my God, they've won 14 of 15, and then they'll lose five of seven.

Yeah, that would happen with the Cavs.

So the player stuff. And is this person top level? I certainly do my share of it on this podcast. It was interesting, though, because I was sitting in the seats with my dad with, like, four or five minutes left when it was clear we were probably going to win. And it was one of the breaks, and we just kind of looked at each other and we're like, who's the finals MVP going to be? Not that we wanted to know who's going to win, but what the ramifications of the vote would be.

Right?

And we were like, oh, man. I was like, so in the. In the seats, I was like, I hope Tatum wins. Cause then Jalen will get one and Tatum will get one, and then we're just done with that combo. I also thought Tatum, the way he played in game five, probably, like, slightly deserved it. Cause he was so great.

And Brown was pretty bad in game four.

Brown was bad in game four and then offensively was terrible in game five and was good defensively. But. But anyway, it seemed like it was close. And I think our fear coming out of the game was like, oh, man, I hope this doesn't become a story. But then the way they handled in the locker room was so smart. It was almost like they had talked about it beforehand, like, no matter what happens, let's say we did this together.

Yes.

We're brothers in arms. It was the two of us. And Tatum's posting comments under Brown's Instagram MVP, they just did everything perfectly. They took it off the table as a combo, which, weirdly, in 2024, you have to do. You do, or else it becomes a cabo.

And it would have if they handled it any differently. I think the one side of the celebration being so premeditated is everything you saw from Jason Tatum. Like, a little rehearsed, a little, like, I'm gonna try to have my big moment.

I think that kind of. Yeah, and that's kind of his vibe all over.

It's like this weird Tatum backlash.

No, I'm just saying, like, I think we did it.

Like, there is a.

Are you mad cause you traded out of the tatum? I'm actually, you know what?

Fucking generous here today. I think he seems like he's, like a guy who was, like, in a lab somewhere being like, what is the perfect reaction to each given moment in my basketball career?

But the flip side of that is you do get a little more care around these things. You get Jalen Brown, even as he's accepting the award, shouting out Jason Tatum and saying, we really did this together. That's, I think, a show of grace that this kind of moment demands, or else it is going to blow up.

Can you. The way you.

The way you just described Tatum. Yeah, it's funny. I was thinking about this when I was. When I was flying back, because we would see this. I used to love tennis a lot more than I do now, but you would see this with different tennis champs, right. When certain people would just completely resonate, and then other people, like, kind of resonated, but not totally. Right. You had, like, Martina Hingis, somebody like that, or, like, lundell was the worst case scenario. But then, like, when Boris Becker won Wimbledon, people freaked out. It's like, oh, my God, Boris Becker.

Agassi for forever, but sampras, not so much.

Sampras. Never agassi for a while. No. And then later in his career, all of a sudden, people are like, agassiz, I fucking love that guy. And nobody ever really, totally loves Sampras, right? It took Serena years to really win that over. And Tatum, to me, is almost like getting the tennis player treatment where it's like, I really appreciate that he just run the French open. He was very good. But I'm not gonna be telling my grandkids about this.

Do you think that. That, for the basketball players, has something to do with the lack of time they spend in the college game? Because college was where we made a connection, develop our relationships to these guys, and think about how. How much it colored, like, how you felt about the Fab five guys, you know, like, or Carmelo or whatever. You know, it was like, always like, oh, this guy made a crazy run. Like, I was obsessed with Kemba coming into the league because of UConn. So I think that sometimes with Tatum, I know he was a duke, and I honestly can't remember Duke for 5 seconds, a single second of his Duke career, or, like, how well or poorly he did. But he just feels like he's always been this dude on the Celtics waiting for this moment and has rehearsed. He has rehearsed what he was going to say after this.

I think the Celtics overall have this vibe, too, and the reception has kind of been met in that way where it's obviously impressive. A dominant run. You can't indict anything that they've done here. Like, this is a great championship, and yet some championships just respond more with people than others, and some superstars respond more than people with others. And that's okay. You don't have to have everything. You have the ring and the trophy, and no one can ever take that away from you.

I thought it was pretty interesting. I wanted to ask you about this because you look at the continuum of the last couple of decades of the game, and we're kind of ending the LeBron era. We're. We're probably exiting the Curry era a little bit. The Durant era and this championship reminded me a little bit of early two thousands. San Antonio, like a bridge title. Well, it's like, clearly the best team, you know, like, clearly the best run team. You know, a group of fan base.

That obviously appreciate you have them over Detroit.

What's that?

You'd have them over Detroit as best run franchise.

Now, whether that most entertaining franchise is a much different conversation, but it kind of reminds me a little bit of that era where it was like, Tim Duncan got another one. How about that? Well, time to get onto baseball. You know, like, that was kind of.

How it was in 2007. Spurs, three spurges.

Yeah, yeah. After the Kobe Shaq dynasty or that run in the beginning of the decade. And then it was like, spurs, pistons, spurs. The Heat one went there. But, like, it was kind of like, cool. Basketball's neat, you know? And what, LeBron wasn't here yet. AI was kind of fading, and we were in this post Jordan hangover. And even though Kobe and Shaq were incredible, like you, you know, the Lakers were villains to a lot of the NBA, and they had their own problems. That's kind of where I feel like we're at now. And the Celtics are very representative of that.

I think the one issue they had, which isn't their fault, is just they didn't have, like, some great games during this playoff run. Probably the most entertaining games they had were the two Indiana road games, which were great but messy. Messy but good comebacks, put some chest hair on themselves, and yet people watch them are like, congratulations. You barely beat Andrew Nehemhard, who's, by the way, feeling it. You know, so it. It's not like I. Look, when you end these playoffs, you.

Always think there's an asterisk on that. Cause we'll never know what would have happened if Matheran had been playing.

That's true.

Well, true is that haliburton thing. But you think about, like, the NBA tv when they run like the greatest games, or like, during the summer, it's like August, they're like, oh, we'll run the best games from the playoffs. I don't. For the Celtics, it would probably be game three, Dallas, which they almost blew in the second half right, in those two Indiana games. And that's probably it. And I think that, like Bellany asked me, like, did the finals just came and went? Did anyone care? And it's like part of the reason was the series sucked. Like, the finals wasn't good. Luca didn't really play that well, even though he was terrifying the whole time. Kyrie was awful. Tatum didn't shoot well for the first two games at least, but it was, it just, it's just gonna want to be one of those things that come and go. Like, what do you remember from the zero three finals? What do you remember from the zero seven finals? And what do you remember from the 15 finals?

Sure. But not only like games, even moments. I think there's not even just signature moments.

You don't get it. You don't get LeBron blocking. There's not like a Draymond dick punch. There's not a big comeback or anything, and that's fine.

And in some ways more impressive, but maybe not more resin. Right? Like running people over in this way. And I think the spurs comp is a good one. I didn't really thought about the zero seven spurs in particular, but that kind of machinery of, oh, this is just a superior team rolling over an opponent that's very good, but maybe not entirely up to this kind of competition. Makes a lot of sense. And then when you flash forward, you know, the spurs didn't really get that sort of resonant moment for almost another decade.

No, they had to turn into the sort of like beautiful basketball players.

Totally.

The 14th spurs. Yeah, that's when they got it. Yeah. The zero seven one was funny because that was the Hori year. The Hori pushing national scorers table and they won. And I thought the spurs were the best team that year. And even when you go back and you actually like, studied that series, like they, they were going to win that series. I think regardless what happens, the Suns had a great chance. I still feel like the spurs are better, but then the years pass and it becomes, oh, they only went because the Hori thing and then they played LeBron in the finals, so zero seven LeBron. So we had nobody else on that team. And that's just kind of what happens. I, this, the more I think about it, this team reminds me of the 15 warriors because like, if you ask the warriors fans, that's a, that's a big statement.

I can't believe you'd think that, but go ahead.

No, but I just. The Warriors, I think statistically, like, win loss record, how they did in the playoffs, very similar point differential.

Sure.

Young stars that clearly had more stuff on the horizon for them. And then also, like, they'd never really left you that confident the entire time.

They definitely looked shaky against Memphis that year.

Yeah.

And even in the finals, it was like, oh, well, what would have happened.

If so, then what's the difference? Is it a lack of charisma on the part of the stars? Like, why is Jays not as big as splash brothers?

The reason I used the 15 warriors is cause there was all the statistical evidence in 15 that the warriors were a really great team.

Yes.

And nobody believed it the entire time.

People were, like, tying themselves, and it.

Was like, yeah, but they shoot so many jump shots. Yeah, but Curry's too young. Yeah, but what happens when they play a big guy? Yeah, but what happens when they do LeBron? And then they won. And people are like, oh, yeah, they won. Oh, this is great. And. And that's what this feels like. But I think with that warriors theme, if you ask warriors fans now, what's your favorite title? It's.

It's 15, right?

Or 22.

No, I think it's.

I think it's the comeback to 22.

I think it's 22. And I think 17, when they just laid the smackdown on everybody, would probably be the second one, I don't know, over 15.

I think 15 is still really a beloved moment.

You think?

I think so, yeah, 15.

I also think for 22.

Probably number one, though, right? Cause of Curry.

I think the satisfaction of that looping back around is probably puts him into.

Like, a whole new stratosphere all time, of being able to, like, come back and revive that and win it again. But that 15 team felt like, hey, man, like, what are you doing tonight? Curry's playing kind of like, we have to go to a bar, showing this warriors game to see this guy play. And the Celtics lacked that player.

Well, that team that had the. Oh, my God, we won. If you're a Warriors fan, that year, they hadn't won in a million years.

It also had the league sea change kind of feel where this is something different. And I know people are trying to make that argument with the Celtics, too. Cause it's kind of, like the logical extension of all the threes that people have been taking for years. But I don't know, it feels, like incremental versus. That felt dramatic.

Yeah. The Celts end up. They had the second best playoff record of anyone in the 16 win era, which just seems inconceivable.

So.

Oh, seven warriors were 16 and one, and then the 23, Denver and zero seven, San Antonio were 16 and four. That was another case for that San Antonio team, by the way. They did kind of demolish people. They're also one of eight teams to have a ten point differential in the season and in the playoffs. And that includes that game where they lost by 38, that had they just lost that game by six, they would have had one of the great differentials. And yet everybody's like, eh, I don't know, could they win? Could they win one more? It just seems like people are more confused than anything, but I think that speaks to more what a weird season it was and how many guys got hurt.

Yeah. And a strange post season and what.

You said about, like, this shift of eras that I don't feel like is done yet.

Well, think about how ahead of our skis we got. Probably with ant, with a bunch of guys that we were like, here we go. It's Shay's time. And it's like us in the second round. It's like it's ant's time. Eh. It seems like you kind of ran out of gas again against the ant.

Rope a dubbed us, though. I actually. I don't apologize for any. I don't apologize for any games. Just like he had become Michael Jordan.

And it was the most fun I had in the postseason. Yeah, but, you know, we kind of lost out on a couple of the. I think we all wanted to see Denver, Boston play against each other. I don't know if the result would have been different or at least more competitive. And I honestly think this thing. And we could talk about Luca if you want, but, like, this finals kind of deflated the night Luca fouled out.

Well, here's who I blame. Number one, just Giannis. Not his fault, but getting hurt like that. Giannis Dane bucks versus.

If you put blame Embiid next, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get mad.

I don't blame Embiid. Okay. Jimmy Butler for faking his knee injury. Cause they wanna play the Celtics.

Wow.

What's my camera? Jimmy, we know you faked the injury. No, I'm kidding. No, just.

Has he had surgery on that? What happened?

No, I think he did.

Did he?

But just not actually beating Jimmy Butler. And then it was just like this carcass of a heat team that just started shooting threes. And once that ran out, it was over.

It wasn't satisfying to beat Caleb Martin.

I loved it. I loved it. I loved. It was actually important for Missoula to just like, beat Eric's bolster in series. Like, you need the confidence from it. But those two things and then Denver not showing up, I do think, yeah, Luca was awesome.

Yeah.

But I do think Denver is a different animal. Cause that team beat the Celtics twice in the regular season and they were their defending champs. And I just feel like it would have had a different weight. Granted, we were going into the series of people asking if Dallas had the two best players in the series, which was. And by the way, all the celtic fans kept the receipts.

Did you?

One of the worst takes of all time. Kyrie was good for four months. Now he's better than Jalen Brown. Like, that was insane.

Those guys looked incredible for a while. I understand what you're saying.

Come on. That was insane. He was incredibly 16 points a game in the OKC series.

We have to, like, build these things up in our heads to be like, here's the argument for watching basketball. Like, is it this or that? I was like, Dallas should just be happy to be there. I hope they lose 40. It's not going to be a very fun conversation to have.

No, but it probably should have been more of a Dallas as the best player in the series and not the two best players in the series.

And then Kyrie is the fourth best player in the series. Would have been the correct take, really. If you watch basketball for the last.

Eight years or are they saying they have the best back court of all.

Of all, I'm telling you, find the takes.

Okay?

Does Dallas have the two best players in the series? And I think there were people that were like, they do, but it was more. And I was doing this before the playoffs, like, and before the finals, like, I do. People understand how good brown and Tatum are because I honestly feel like people just weren't watching. I think there's some of that, especially Brown, which I thought was great. Anyway, the Jalen versus Jason thing, one last thing. I was just imagining over the years, if we had this for like, Elgin Baylor and Jerry west, like we had the talk culture we have now in like 1964, and be like, whose team is this, Jerry or Elgin?

Is it John Pax in time now.

Callance and Havlicek would have been a good one. Moses and doc in 83, Moses showed up. But is this still doc's team that's coming up? But I would like.

I mean, the challenge is to be like George lynch. Could Iverson do it without him?

Oh, that's true. What would we know? When is this mutumbo's team? That's next. Magic and cream, I think, would have been the best one, though. Cause there was always that car keys thing with them, and they. Matt Kareem is clearly the best guy in 80, even though magic had the. The great game, 682 is still Kareem's team. But then mid eighties, it started to flip, and I think people would have just dined on that every day.

Well, I think that's also part of what's confusing about the Jays conversation, is, like, these guys are just so. It's basically like, even. And you're like, well, Tatum seems to have been anointed as this alpha and, like, the lead guy, but he obviously can't do it without brown. But that being said, I don't know if Brown could do it without Tatum. No, I can't believe I'm talking about this.

No, no, I want to talk about Brown, but we gotta take a break. All right, come back. Cr brought up Brown. We just did that ringer hundred, which I think all three of us voted yes. I think the biggest surprise of the season. And my dad and I talked about this a little, so I'm repeating it, but just that Jalen became, like, for me, like, unquestionably a top 15 guy.

Which is a huge development for.

And I think I would not have guessed that. Yeah, I thought there was a ceiling for where it could go with him, and that offensively, he was. He was just not consistent enough. I thought he was a good defender, but not an elite defender, which I think he became an elite defender this season, not just in the playoffs. And I mean, some of the stats, like, from December through March, which is a four month sample size, he was 24 and six every night, 52%, 37% from three. And they, a lot of times wasn't playing in fourth quarters, like. Cause they were blowing a lot of these teams out in the playoffs. He was also 24 and 652 percent. Five and a half free throws a game, which was another thing that was super frustrated with him, where it was just shooting jumpers, not going to the basket. Brian Barrett had a couple of good things. He said, from December to the end of the season, Chris is going to kill himself. From December to the end of the season. Top 20 in points in the paint. Yeah, in the playoffs, 12.9 points a game in the paint, which is eight.

So he actually changed how he played. And I thought he was way stronger, really, the last two years, but especially this year. And you could just see on the bench. Like, he was jacked. And I think him and Tatum, I think, will get stronger next year. But that was the biggest thing that changed to me, is that he just physically became more imposing. So that's what I saw as a Boston fan. You guys don't care about Boston. What'd you say?

Let me ask you what the thing I remember what, like, in my, like, ten times a year watching Jalen or whatever in years past is like, every once in a while, it just seems like he's just, like, dribbling off his foot, throwing it to nobody. Like the kind of. There also seems to be a focus, and I think probably the focus was like, this is it. Like, this is the. You guys have been together for x number of years. This is your chance to actually do it. Every turn, it was like, there goes Giannis, there goes Joel. Like, now. No Brunson. The road is cleared for you guys. And it just seemed like that really focused them, and maybe it's just maturity, but I just. What did he get rid of? I guess that is the thing that. Cause, like, I watched him and I was like, yeah, he's cool and good, but, like, he fucks up a lot. Like, he. He, like, makes these mistakes.

I think a lot of it is very gradual skill refinement. Like, Jalen Brown's a great player development success story in a way that isn't super sexy because he didn't add one definitive thing to his game. He's got better at a lot of it, better at sensing the moment. And the reason he and Tatum work together and what makes them so hard to talk about is that Tatum is the best player, mostly because he's slightly more versatile than Jalen Brown is, but he's not, like, altogether more reliable or more explosive. Like, they both have that in them. And I think what Jalen kind of figured out this season is more, when is that spot for you? When is the moment where it's your time to press and not. I'm going to take this offense by the reins and force it upon the moment. I thought he was better. Just kind of feeling that stuff out, to be honest.

Yeah. And less turnovers, less sloppy, better defensively, just more impactful, creating some, maybe one more turnover into a fast break, play a game. They figured out something, the five out thing and getting Porzingis and getting rid of Rob Williams, getting rid of Marcus.

Smith, which a lot of people talked.

About this week, and just having more space, I think really helped those guys. You can see it in Dallas and game two and game five, where they're just like, clear out. These guys are going one on one. They feel like they can get to the rim and they can kick out or they can stop, and I just. Whatever balance they had, it was never 100% there until this year. That's. That's what I saw.

Well, the spacing in terms of, you know, you brought up Jalen Brown. Getting points in the paint, like, him unlocking as a cutter comes from that spacing, too. The more room you have, then all of a sudden, oh, there's so much easy offense for these guys to scoop up.

Well, you think, like, how many forwards, how many wings can do this? Like, even, like, in my top 15. Do you consider Giannis a forward or a big man?

I consider more of a big.

That's how I did, too. So if we. If we say Giannis is a big and we say Luca is a guard, that means Tatum's the best forward in the league. Just by the. Whatever you consider that position.

Luca is a guard.

Now, I'm saying if. Well, if we're gonna say wing or.

Guard, I think he's a guard, but I feel like you've been beating this drum where he's not really a guard.

He's a wing. I don't know, is he wing or a guard?

I mean, like, he brings the ball up and initiates the offense.

He's 260 pounds. Like, I don't know what to make of it. I don't know what he is. All right.

Regardless, he's not doing defensively what these guys would say.

Wing creator with size. We'll put Luca first, Tatum second. Ants. Ants. I think a guard.

Yeah.

Right. So now it's KD or Jalen for, like, the third best forward in the weeks.

So not is Kawhi's injury record just kind of takes.

Yeah, and if you go down, like, I'm looking at my top hundred after Jalen, you're looking at Paolo, you're looking at LeBron, Kawhi Zion Butler, Jalen Williams on OKC, Paul George, Laurie Market, and Jalen's, I think, a better bet than all those guys at the forward position. If you're looking for a two way guy and you want to win basketball games and have somebody who's durable and play, the durability thing, which I always talk about, like, that matters, too with these guys.

They don't get hurt. That was one thing that it didn't even occur to me until I think Derek White chipped his tooth where I was like, aside from KP, it just feels like these guys always get up, you know, like, it is really annoying as a fan of a team with.

It's one of the rarest skills, though, right? Durability is now, like, one of the hardest commodities to find, and it may be increasingly valuable.

Like, if the league is going to have all this parity where you have, like, you have to be healthy, the time things swing your way.

Yes.

And I think what Boston's been able to do over time is give themselves as much as many cracks at this thing as they possibly can. And that's. That's health. That's also just this team staying together despite all of us and everyone else trying to kind of tease them apart and pull them apart. It's. It's really their superpower and what allows.

It's almost like they, with the way that they did. They got rid of Marcus Smart and Time Lord to get Drew and to get KP, and it's almost like they doubled down on brown and Tatum. They were like, we don't need to screw with this too much. We need. Drew Holiday was like the consummate teammate. And you do the drew trade every.

Day of the year.

Sure. Yeah.

The Marcus trade, I think, was a lot more painful.

Yeah.

And we said this last year on the pod over and over again. That trade was more about Tatum and brown than it was about Marcus smart. There was a big brother thing with that dude, and he really felt like it was the three of them together and they had to get rid of that. And it was a brutal trade. And I'm sure Marcus, like, if you noticed, nobody heard from him the last two weeks, right? Yeah, we haven't heard from him yet. I don't think. Haven't heard of him on a podcast or seen him on first take. He stayed out of this because I think this is pretty painful.

Do you think he was supposed to have Julius Randall's spot on the halftime show and they just couldn't. Couldn't make him?

Who is the backup plan of Julius? We looking at Chet Holmgren at that.

Point where we go down the agency list on that one? I'm not sure who's next in line.

I've already made my case about. I don't why. I don't think Tatum is a finished product, but I wanted to ask you guys, is Tatum a finished product in your mind?

I think he's a finished product. And on the Celtics with this lineup, I don't really know what else he's going to add to his game. And frankly, I think if there was going to be any development. It'd be like non basketball. It would be like, I think, personality development. Well, I think that there's something that happens when you win a championship that changes, like, the way you approach.

Maybe take some cooking, like a chef podcast. Honestly, I got a chef video podcast.

Let's see it.

Let's see it.

Deuce and Jay.

Let me see the nice skills.

Yeah. Woodworking, teaching my son how to Julienne, like oranges.

He gets it. He gets into expensive cocktails.

Yeah.

Oh, I like to make, like, good scotch drinks.

Yeah.

He'd be a good muddler. I could see it for him.

What do you, what do you think? Is he finished product?

I think more or less finished product. But I do agree that there is an ease that comes with winning sometimes that unlocks something for these guys. You hope that it doesn't decrease some of the hunger. You hope that there aren't negative trade offs that come with winning because some guys let their guard down. But ultimately, I think he's more or less this player. I think that player is really good. I think even the Celtics themselves, in some ways, have been waiting for him to take some next step as a shotgun creator to hit that next level. That's a really hard thing to do. And if you want to run down the list of the top 100 guys who can actually create individual offense at a higher level than Jason Tatum, it's really not that long a list. He's already really, really good.

Why do you need him to have some other level?

Cause I think there's one more piece to him that we haven't gotten to yet.

But do you feel unsatisfied with where he's at?

No, I think it's more a case to me of is this it, or is if there's one more level, then that changes the ceiling of what happens the rest of the decade with the Celtics team. Cause to me, the level is I think he can get stronger. Cause he's stronger now, but even I think he could put on like, seven, eight pounds and he's just can. The way he bully ball Dallas in the fourth quarter, I feel like is part of the future with him. But figuring out eight to 13ft and being able to use his strength and speed to get by somebody, but then just take easier shots versus constantly just barreling into people. Cause you're gonna get eventually hurt.

I mean, very few people watch as much celtics as you. How much of it is the system that they play versus, like, what, his limitations?

No, it's the handle. Itis which. Which, you know, which Roselle and I have talked about forever. Yeah, it's threes or get to the rim. And there's that one, like, I mean, the best at it is Shay right now. Right? And Luca, too. But these guys that, oh, I got a half step on this now. This is the ten footer. I'm taking it. And Jalen's good at it, too, and Tatum's just not good yet. I think he'd be a better three point shooter, too. He's not good enough yet as a three point shooter.

40%, 3.0. Yeah, and he's really tough once he.

Takes really bad three point shots, and he's got it. There's an efficiency standpoint, I remember. I mean, LeBron's the best case snare in this, but LeBron, after he won the first title that next year, he was so awesome coming out of the gate. It just felt like he had unlocked something mentally. And remember, he shot 60% for, like, three months. We were like, oh, my God, he went up a level. And then he kept adding stuff year after year. By 2015, he had a post up game. By 2018, he could just single handedly overpower whatever lineup somebody had. And that's why I just think it's too early for Tatum. I think. I think there's an. I really do. I think there's another level for him.

He just doesn't have the holes in his game that LeBron did and so many other superstars. I think, again, this is what makes him so hard to talk about. You can kind of do everything, so it's not like, oh, go down to the post. Cause he can do that. It's not that he needs to work on his handle in the way that Jalen did. Cause he could already do that. Ultimately, the way you create, like, offense as a team, is it coming from a superstar like Luca, or is it coming from system? And for the Celtics, it's about system.

It is.

And that's like. That wins you championships in this context, and that's okay. And he doesn't have to be that guy. Like, he doesn't have to be any better than his first thing.

It's like, yeah, there are some legendary Duncan games, and you'd blink your eyes, and all of a sudden he'd be at, like 24 and twelve in the third quarter. But you don't leave those games being like, Tim Duncan fucking killed everybody out there. And when I left it that way.

One of the ten best players of all time. And I agree with you that I didn't necessarily have that reaction to a.

Lot of, I mean, I'm just saying, like, as a viewer, I wasn't, like, pouring through the analytics. It was just like, oh, man, how did fuck the Duncan wind up with like 22 and twelve already? Like, and then I feel that way about Tatum kind of where it's just like, oh, this guy's got, I thought he was having an off night, but he's got 24, you know, like, it's, and it just kind of emerges out of the style of basketball that they play.

Did they feel like the Celtics? I hate when things go well and then people start talking about what the, what the mindset was, and they definitely spilled the beans on some of this stuff. Like, they want everybody to shoot and be able to switch on. D is the platonic idea of the Celtics team. And they basically, after they won the title, they're like, yeah, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to do this. And I just feel like teams are going to copy that now.

Like, how do you copy it?

I mean, go find Jalen Brown.

Like, it's hard to copy more and more shooters that come into the league every year. Like, if I'm, if I'm looking at, like, the spurs, right, what's the platonic idea of a Spurs team? And they like somebody like Reed shepherd, right? Should they have a chance to take it for, who's an incredible shooter but he's six one and a half. Is that somebody that can switch on d? Is that somebody in the last two rounds in the playoffs with teams just hunt him or could he stand up for himself a little bit? Those are conversations you have to have now, if you're the spurs, do you just want switchable athletes who can shoot or do you, are you trying to build, like, an old school basketball team? I don't know. And maybe the answer is, well, if you have Tatum and Brown, this is how you.

I just feel like we're six week removed from being like, it's all about size, it's height. It's like you have to somebody who's going to take Jokic, you have to have somebody who's going to take Giannis. Like that is going to be the question mark that follows this team around a little bit because they wound up playing a Dallas team that even though they had, like, the vertical threats with Gafford and Lively, it's not jokic. It wasn't, you know, like, I feel like they didn't have to. There was not a clash of styles in this. In this series, if you want a.

Reason why the Celtics won this series, it's that they were overwhelmingly more talented than the Mavericks. If you want the secondary reason, it's that Jason Tatum can guard players like Daniel Gafford and guard players like Derek Lively, for the most part, and get away with it. And so, like, if you have that guy, everything unlocks for you. If you have a small forward or power forward who's not as good at that stuff as Jason Tatum is, not as good a rebounder as Jason Tatum is, I think you lose a lot of those battles off.

The crazy thing is, I was actually thinking about this when he. When he made his pretty valiant return to the floor, is I was like, if Porzingis had been healthy this entire series, like, this might have been like an all time, all time, like, wipeout. Like, if we.

If the Celts had played the whole playoffs. I mean, Porzingis had played the whole playoffs, probably two of those games. Flip would be my guess.

Could be.

Cause it was just. He would just have moments where he was the best guy on the floor for, like, four minutes.

Yeah. I mean, even replace him early on in game five, there were times where, like, you would just see Luca or Kyrie get daylight, and then they would see Porzingis and they would literally hit the brakes and turn around, look for somebody else to pass through.

Unbelievable job by him to play. I mean, he basically admitted after he really could have gotten hurt, and I think they were really scared to put him out there. But once Dallas did what they did.

In game four, I mean, that actually was, like, one of the more, like, old school, pure sports. Like, this guy really wants to play in the finals, like, one more time, like, because I. You have to imagine, like, the worst case scenario for that would have been pretty, pretty bad.

What a personality rehab by him. I know this was. If you asked somebody even a year ago, what are your thoughts on Chris taps Porzingis? You've been like, loser. Good stats, bad team. Guy like, that would have been the court.

Be a hornet or a. Be a wizard for the rest of his life.

Yeah, it was hilarious when he got traded. The Wizards. All right, I have some more stuff for you guys. Do you feel like we're doing the award stuff correctly for the whole season in the playoffs? Because now we added this conference finals mvp, right? Which in some cases, it could be a four game sweep, and then it's like, ah, that guy had two good games. All of a sudden, he's forever etched in history. And same thing for the finals, which has gotten super goofy a couple of times over the years, where it's like Tony Parker, the 2007 finals MVP, and it's like, tim Duncan's on the team. He's the best guy in the world. I really, and I've said this, I've made the case forever. I really think we need, like a post season big picture. Like in hockey, they have the Con Smythe, right?

So the guy who's been the best.

And best guy in the playoffs and.

The goal he's supposed to.

I want to see the cons might for the playoffs. And to me, that's so much more interesting than who the finals.

I want to be the consmyth of this playoffs.

Well, I'm going to go further. Not only do I want the Khan Smythe, I want the.

This doesn't even sound. Con Smythe is not a real award, guys. That's not a real thing. What are we talking. I have no familiar. What are we talking about?

Conn Smythe is like cocky, okay?

And I've heard of that.

Best player for the entire playoffs. And it's like the most prestige. They don't have a finals mvp, they.

Just have the Con Smith.

Yeah. And he was the guy who was like, you know, it's good pucks. Yeah, try those.

Con Smith was like, hey, put those sticks and curve them a little bit. What's up, boys?

You want to get beers after the game? That was that guy.

Okay? He deserves an award.

Well, I think we have whatever the version of that is. Plus, I would love to see a first team post season.

Oh, like an all tournament team?

Yeah.

Format.

Why don't they have the all tournament team? So that leads to my next question. Who's on your all tournament team? Cause you have Tatum and Brad and Luca, right? There's three. Ant is ant the fourth.

Ant and Shay.

Are. Are we a hundred percent sure Tatum and Brown both make it?

Oh, yeah.

Really?

Yeah, I think so. I think you have to have two guys.

This imaginary team that we've just played.

Since we're met, since we're drafting this right now. Is this a positionless team?

Yeah, it's just the five best guys at the playoffs.

Yeah.

Lucas got to be on it. I think Tatum's got to be on it.

I think Brown has to.

Do you think it's a requirement that the players in the post season team at least make it to the conference finals?

So that was one of my questions. Cause I had Tatum, Brown, Luca and Edwards as the four locks, not Brunson. And then the. Well, Brunson played two rounds.

He was so good, though.

So you could have him. You could have Kyrie. Right. Who is the second best guy in a finals team? You could go, I'm putting three people on this. From the. From the winner. I'll put Drew holiday as my third. Just have three Celtics and then two.

Gosh, who would do that?

Whatever.

Yeah.

I'm just. I don't know what the right strategy is. You know what? I know it would be super fun to argue. It would be fun to vote on. You could talk me to having a first team, second team. But the whole point of this shit is create a snapshot of the season so I can look at it 50 years from now and be like, who are the five best guys in the playoffs? So I think we don't have that now.

The bright side of the MVP debate being so constant throughout the regular season is that it does force people to consider, you know, the totality of the NBA season. And, you know, when you're doing these, like, ladders or you're doing these straw polls or whatever, you kind of have a feeling of like, oh, wow, this person has really, like, eclipsed this other player over the course of the season. But the problem with that is that, like, this. This was something that was almost like icing on a cake at the end of a season. And I kind of like what you're. Where you're going with this. But I do think it would be hard to make the argument that Brunson, who probably.

That's why we have a second team.

Who's on the second team?

All right, I'm going to. I'm going to say kyries in the first team. Okay. You're saying Jayden Brown, Luca Edwards, kyrie, first team.

Kyrie over Brunson.

Second team. Yokage, Brunson, shay, Siakam and Drew, something like that. See, this is why this would be fun.

Yeah.

We'd have. We'd get an entire podcast segments out of. Siakam is not a second team. Khan Smite.

I'm gonna start my Nemhard campaign. Yeah, right.

I also would love, like, a year long award, like a calendar year.

Regular season playoffs.

Regular season playoffs. If it's a fIBA or Olympic year, you factor that.

That's like Ballon, Dor and Zachary. That's exactly what I get. The international tournament and your club season gets combined. Pretty much.

The problem is no one really looks to FIBA like that to make these decisions. There's no governing body, which I guess is why it is incumbent on us to create it.

So I did. I did a lot of this work already way back when. Cause in my book, I really wanted to have a playoffs MVP because I thought it was so stupid. And for the most part, I would say three out of every four times. It mirrors whatever happened with the finals.

So the finals MVP would actually be the playoffs.

It's like 70%, 75%. But then there's other times, you know, like in 1979, like Gus Williams would have been the playoff MVP. DJ won the finals MVP because he had five games. It get, there's some fun arguments that where, like, in 2018, if we had a playoffs MVP and LeBron was awesome. Oh, yeah, that whole playoffs, right?

Yeah.

And then in the, he gets swept in the finals and KD wins finals MVP. And then it becomes, yeah, but LeBron, that team sucked. And we could have argued about that this year. We could argue about Tatum or Brown as the playoffs MVP would have been one of those 220 15 LeBron or Curry 2014. Duncan or Kawhi could have argued about that 2010. And by the way, you can look this up. Kobe or Gasol would have been a real argument for playoffs MVP because Gasol was awesome.

Kobe would play well. Yeah.

Kobe would have been like, he wouldn't have posted MVP under Gasol. Pierce, KG and 0801. Shaq or Kobe was a real argument because kobe was awesome that whole playoffs. Magic or Cream 85. I could keep going and going, but I just think, why not?

I mean, what's the point of Seal has been broken. If we started this podcast, conference finals.

MVP, we can have this.

Yes.

So do you want it in place of these things or in addition to these things?

I want to know.

So do you think that adding more of this stuff would make things less insane on a day to day basis? Because you wouldn't be like. Because we wouldn't all be like. If the finals MVP is almost more important than who wins the finals, to.

Me, playoffs MVP is more important than finals MVP. And I would get, I honestly would get rid of conference finals MVP. I think it's so stupid.

Instead of installing that one.

Should have just got introduced recently.

Yeah, I was, I would dump that.

Okay.

I would dump that and do playoffs MVP and I would do two teams, two postseason tournament teams. Rob, Rob really sparked up with the tournament.

I'm into it. I'm on this.

We would have real arguments about people like Knicks fans who've been eliminated for a month. Really? Brunson still first team.

Oh, they would be making Dante D. Vincenzo cases. I don't like the Brunson stuff is.

A given just to keep spicing things up.

Yeah.

What if we did in two weeks the, like, in season tournament champions versus the final champions for like, in Vegas at summer league. Celtics. Lakers.

Oh, the Celtics. That's the last, last final. I now have to beat the Ncasa. Let's take one more break. I had one more Tatum thing I forgot to mention that I came up with on the plane. Probably cause I only had like 4 hours sleep. My Matt Stafford versus Matt Ryan theory.

Okay, you're gonna need to explain this one to me, too.

It's like football.

It's a little bit different.

Well, I was thinking on the plane that, like, Matt Ryan got. He made the Atlanta Falcons ring of honor. Matt Ryan was a really good quarterback. He was the mvp one year, brought the Falcons. They were up 28, three in the. In the playoffs. And then the Patriots came back and beat them.

Yep.

And he wasn't. They kind of needed like 8% more from him in that game than he probably had. Whereas Matt Stafford on the Rams, who I think people probably thought they were around the same, but then in the Super bowl, in the playoffs, Matt Stafford just had a little bit more. And I was thinking like Tatum, which I think people have trouble putting him in context in. Cause he's not Giannis, he's not Jokic, but I think he's at that Matt Stafford level. And the question is, does he max out there? Cause Matt Stafford, well, gonna go into the hall of Fame, great career, was a Super bowl winning QB. And is that it? Or could he go up a. He's not gonna be Mahomes, but he's somewhere between Matt Stafford and Mahomes. Right? Does that make sense?

No, I kind of like it. Cause it's like. But it's like Matt Stafford, if he had played his entire career in a stable organization.

Getting the playoffs every year.

Like Tatum has basically played under Brad Stevens or Joe Mazzullo with Brad Stevens in the GM.

Put Joe in there.

But I'm just saying, like, I mean, Missoula did change this team.

He's earned.

He's earned his inclusion because I think Matt Stafford on the Falcons probably would have been better than Matt Ryan. But I'm not so sure Matt Ryan couldn't have won a Super bowl with Shawn McVeigh as OC and Aaron Donald on defense.

Yeah, true. Tatum, three straight first team on bas. Which is not nothing.

No.

One other thing with Tatum that I thought was really interesting. Cause I had that 42 club that I always talk about.

We were just talking about this the other day.

I came up as a way to basically discredit Karl Malone. And if for some reason 42 is the number, this is so fucking right. 42 is the number that some.

You're saying the quiet part out loud about Carmel.

No, I really did well, because I feel like you didn't always. You were like, 42.

Go look it up. It's a really important number. And then you finally started just being like, I honestly just wanted to stick it to Carl Malone.

I liked the idea. And then I had it at 40, and there was like, seven Karl Malone season. I'm like, ah. Then I was like, 41. It was like, oh, we still had five. And then 42. He had none. I was like, that's the number. But it's interesting. It really works. And I mentioned this because Tatum, who was 43 before the finals, finished at 41. He finished at 25. Ten and six, he didn't make it.

But that's the finals.

He had that kind of mirrored what we saw. He wasn't quite. But meanwhile, Luca was 47.1. So he made it so the guys just. From this century, LeBron six times. Shaq three times. Kobe wants an zero one. Iverson, your guy. Oh, one makes sense. He was unbelievable that year. Duncan once, Kawhi once, 19.

Duncan only once, huh?

Yeah.

He wasn't that stack guy, you know, he was like, what? I'll do whatever we need. Giannis wants, Jokic wants. These are all for people that made the finals, obviously. And then Luca.

What I like about this is it. It kind of strings out the idea. Like, we think about all of these great players and it's like, oh, they do this every single time. Right? You expect a consistency from a hall of fame level superstar. And yet even someone like Kobe, who is, you know, an icon for so many players, especially in the league now, he has one of those runs, and.

That didn't even do it in zero, nine and ten. Right. To just be able to get points, rebounds and assists every game at a really high level, it's crazy. Is the most simple thing you can do in basketball, and it's really fucking.

Well, Yoko seems like he's going to break this 42 thing.

He is predisposed. That's. That's the market inefficiency on the 42.

Like, own the 42.

You get 18 rebounds for two series at a time. Yes.

It's just so crazy to happen again with. Cause I looked it up. I was like, I bet he didn't make it. Cause he just wasn't quite good enough in the finals. And there did he missed it by point. All right, we had to talk about Mavs. So my first question because we had this with the Mavs of five seed 1532, they took down the four seed clips, the one seed OKC, three seed wolves made the finals year before the heat 44 and 38 and eight seed took down the one seed bucks, two seed Celts, five seed knicks. And then even if you go back to 2020, the bubble heat were a five seed 2018, the Cavs 1532. They were four seed and I think they were. What were they like 29th and defense that year at some point, like really a bad team for, for finals teams. So that's now 1234 of our last seven finals. We've had a crash. The party team.

Yeah.

Is this what the league is now?

I think it is in terms of. Especially in terms of the relationship teams have to the regular season, which, you know.

So you think that ties together?

Yeah, I think so. I think that. I think teams are comfortable being mid seeded and that that number one seed is kind of like if it's in touching distance, sure, it's like a thing we want, but we're not going to like blow our guys out in February to make sure that we get the top two seeds.

So five seed is fine. Basically, we're not going to have home court advantage throughout the playoffs.

We're fine with, look, that Dallas is. I would say that there are historically some second half of the season juggernauts. I think that Miami has had a couple of those seasons where it's like they come out of the all star break and you're like, holy shit, what did they drink? You know, like, like, and they just rattle off like one of those like 18 out of 25 runs and you're like, damn. Like, these guys got really good. And even though they're total record, maybe isn't that impressive. Like what they've done in a certain amount of time suggests they're playing their best basketball going.

But that, that sounds more like the NFL.

It does.

Where the team where you get a raven.

So these guys are going to start breaking people in half when it got cold like that. That's what happens in football sometimes.

There's also so much happening in an NBA season that we lose track of the fact that the Mavs basically weren't healthy until the trade deadline. And so, yes, it's huge that they got Washington and Gafford. They also just didn't have their team.

Yeah.

And you could say the same thing about the Heat last season where, you know, Jimmy Butler is going to miss, like, 15 to 20 games every year. Bam. Is going to miss some games here and there. Tyler Hero is going to miss some games here and there. So we don't have a complete picture of what that team looks like. It's also worth noting that all of the kind of crash the party teams are talking about all lost.

Do you think there's a relationship between crash the party and the ratings? Do you think that there's, like, a. Wait a second. Am I supposed to care about this? Like, I kind of thought it was going to be this team and this team.

Like, I think it's different when it's LeBron James.

Yeah.

You know, I'm sure that didn't hurt the ratings in 18 when it was Jimmy Butler in the heat. Slightly different when now. Jimmy's, I think, more famous than maybe he was in 2020 and even 2023.

But I don't know if he's famous for, like, basketball. Like, you know, he's a celebrity, but I don't know if it's like, hey, I gotta watch Jimmy Butler tonight.

And then Luca. I mean, I'm sorry, but a lot of people were discovering him during the finals, like those super casuals who kind of knew who he was but probably hadn't really watched him. We left out one thing. I think the league is just deeper and makes me wonder when the league was super stacked from, I'm gonna say, 88 to 93, even though MJ made it the three straight years with Chicago, Detroit made it the three years before. But then the west, it gets super goofy, right? There's a couple Portland years, there's a Phoenix year. There's a 91 lakers year that comes out of nowhere. Then you go to 94, 95. All of a sudden, Houston's in there the second time. They're in there. They're in there with a team that looked like they were dead at the all star break. And the other side has Orlando in 95 and has the Knicks in 94 in 96. Seattle makes it so. This was more common than what we had in the 2010s, where we just had the warriors versus Cleveland for half a decade.

Yeah.

Um, but the league being deeper with me doing that top hundred, it was like, I put in Bede 9th, and I didn't feel good about it, but I. I just couldn't put him any higher. Where'd you have Embiid?

I think I ended up having him.

I just couldn't put him higher in the 9th. It's like, the guy doesn't.

We always get into an embiid Tatum conversation for that reason. Like, I usually end up with him in that five six range, but it's hard with him, with Kawhi, with any of these guys who are injured a lot, like, separating them from the really durable superstars is almost empty.

I care so much about the durability.

I think it's okay for the top 100 to reflect the moment in time in which it was voted on. And we're voting at the end of the finals, and, like, you can't ignore what we just saw.

Can I ask you this question without triggering you?

Mm hmm.

I mean, Embiid's gonna be 30 this year.

Yeah.

He hasn't had a memorable playoff moment yet. Like, when can we stop saying that he's a top six guy?

I mean, he. When he stops, like, he scored 70 fucking points really good.

I mean, like, yeah, I know he did.

Yeah.

Cool. Went, like, at some point, don't you have to do something in the two months that actually matters?

I reflected that in my voting. I reflected that.

I think people still feel like he's the fifth best guy in the league, and it's like, at some point, the people have to factor in.

Well, it's like, when he plays, he might be the top. Might be a top three guy in the league.

Cool.

So we do with that what we will.

I feel the same about Kawhi. I agree. On paper. Yeah, Kawhi is really good. He's been hurt every single year since 2019. 2019 is now five years ago. Like, at some point, I think that.

There are different conversations. I think Embiid has had very bad luck with injuries at the certain time that they happen. I think Kawhi has, like, it's. It's obviously the niece to have bad.

Luck with Embiid at this point, though, because he's had a lot of, like.

Think about where Embiid started from, where people were. Like, he may or may not play basketball.

Yeah.

Like, coming out of Kansas and it was like, that. He's gonna have to take a red shirt year.

Yeah.

I don't, like, there's the back, there's knee. There's all this stuff. And it's like, given where people's expectations were with him coming into the league, this has been, like, the best, one of the best possible scenarios.

I think he's also had, like, a lot of freak stuff. There's the chronic big man lower body thing, and then there's the face. I think the contrast with Kawhi is. Kawhi is a stone cold killer. When he gets there, you get him on the floor, he's going to have some all time playoff performances. Embiid, we're still waiting for some of those. And so there's the double question of is he going to be healthy and is he going to level up his game in a way that we're all.

And I also think has to learn seven or eight new players every season because the Sixers have a really high turnover model. Their roster building right now was like the celtic stone, you know, if you.

Had to say one guy outside of the top ten crashes the party in the next nine months. And I gave you the trip, I put Wemby 10th, by the way.

Okay, I was about to say that's the answer.

If I put him, I just already, I'm just not making, I'm not making another list with him and not in the top ten.

Okay.

I'm just, just, that's where I am. But would you say if I gave you Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, Paolo Zion.

Can I ask a clarifying question? How is Paolo getting in this conversation? All due respect, how is he getting in this?

I'm saying a year from now, if you had to pick somebody that you wouldn't expect to crash the party like what Anthony Edwards did this short.

Okay, okay.

Who is the guy that you could see all of a sudden? Depends on the team. So I'll give you, I'll just give you a bunch. Right.

Mitchell, I think Booker is reasonable to expect. Like he's kind of always on the.

Borderline of where did you have Brunson?

I had him 6th.

I don't blame you.

I thought he was incredible.

Okay.

I just had Brunson above embedded.

Yeah. You know, I could beat him in a playoff series.

Yeah, sure.

Like, I'm sorry I'm a results guy, Sierra, but Wen Vinyama, I just think webinar just, we know what's going to happen next year. That guy's going to be, he's going.

To be playing with a bunch of g league guys and they're going to win 30 games.

Like he swung the finals this year because he somehow beat Denver with Devontae Graham. A bunch of, a bunch of ten day guys.

If I can change the parameters to two years, I would not be surprised if Chet Holmgren is like knocking on the door. The top ten in two years.

There we go.

That's good.

I could see that. I could see him having a young Anthony Davis kind of trajectory.

Well, if that happens, OKC's winning a title before the end of the decade, they might. Well, yeah, because then you would have. Because that's what one of the things I was looking at with, like, who's the next crash the party team, which then ties into a whole. All right, we'll look at the finals odds, and I don't think anybody that has odds better than, like, 16 and what, there's eight. There's eight teams right now that have odds between three to one and 16 to one. Boston, Denver, Minnesota, Mavs, Milwaukee, OKC. Philly Knicks. I'm taking them off the board. It jumps to 30 to one, and then we go. Clippers 30 to one. Miami 30 to one. Phoenix 35 to one. Golden State 35 to one. Lakers 40 to one. Indy 50 to one. Memphis 50 to one. This is all on Fanduel. New Orleans 50 to one. Cleveland 50 to one. Sacramento 55 to one. Orlando 81. Atlanta 100 to one. Houston 150 to one.

I mean, in terms of me ripping.

Those off, what jumped out?

I don't think any of those Eastern Conference teams have a chance to beat Boston and get to the finals. I think would crash the party.

Would be a conference final.

Is a conference final good enough to crash the party or do you have to make it all the way to the finals? Cause that's where the east and west are so different. I could be convinced that a lot of western Conference teams could make it through. There may be five or six teams in the west that could be finalists next year.

Right.

In the east, I think there's maybe three, and one of them is three. I mean, I think the Celtics, the Sixers, we just have to see they're going to change so much potentially, about their roster.

And you have to treat Milwaukee seriously.

I have Milwaukee second in my head. Philly, they have three players I want to.

Yeah, I mean, that's. A lot of this stuff is like, is Paul George on the magic? That changes things. Changes a lot. Yeah.

And I thought we feel the best for Milwaukee as the second team in the.

Yes. Just having Giannis by default puts you in that conversation.

Everyone else is a TBD. And Cleveland, we don't know who their coach is or if they're going to make a trade. Miami, we have no idea how that's going to play out. Going down the line. I thought the two that jumped out to me were Memphis at 50 to one.

That's a really interesting one.

And Cleveland at 50 to one. Because even that top hundred exercise we did, I had four calves in the top 60. I had Mitchell at 15. At least the recipe.

But do they hate each other. Like, I don't even know, you know.

Or even do they not? But they just like can't really do it together.

His Josh, maybe their catch sucked. Is jock come back in his top ten.

Well, so if Ja comes back and he's a top twelve guy, they also have Jackson and Bain, who are both top 55. They have the 9th pick in the draft.

They lost half their team.

They bring Brandon Clark back. They get, bring Marcus smart back. They have Jackson and Vince Williams and Zaire Williams. They brought. That'd be a lot of young guys that got time. They have a $12 million, $13 million trade exception, I think.

Yeah, but they get, they're like not inconceivable. They're really gonna be the thunder. They were that thunder. Like, wow, they have so much flexibility. All these pieces. They can make a trade or they could just go with their kids and now it's like if Ja comes back and it's like, it's all sealed up, man. Like, I think that would be my crash the party team.

They're the elephant in the room in the west for sure. I think a lot of people are just forgetting about their existence, but I agree.

And you forget about the fact. Can you imagine like that that fan base is going to be like when he's back? You know, like they're, they've been out of it for like two years. Like in suspended animation waiting for the cow.

How did he get. He was probably one of the seven best guys in the league, I think.

Right.

He was making it, I think, like a fun to talk about. MVP push when this all happened.

Classic. Like on the ballot, like in the conversation. What are the fanduel odds on Gigi Jackson for finals MVP? Can we get in on that early?

I'm going to. I'm going to look that up. Yeah. Ja was second team RMBA in 22 and then he was. Yeah, that was his figure. Yeah. Memphis jumped out to me because you can see the moves, especially, like, if they use that number nine pick to try to get one more awesome guy and also like, wait, what's their team?

Yeah, they're also a path for another, like five or six seed in the west to make the finals because Memphis could easily be the two or three.

Seed next season with riding the best guy. Jod. Just having an amazing comeback redemption year. Cleveland jumped out to me because of the four top 60 guys. The new coach, like what a borrego is just a big upgrade.

They got to retool that bench a little bit.

What if they trade Jared Allen and just make Mobley their center and turn Jared Allen into one more good wing and go that route and just the team clicks better.

Yeah. And what if Jared Allen goes to the thunder and turns and they've become like, you got to be careful not.

To drew holiday yourself on that.

Can we at least talk for 1 second about Houston at 151?

I would love to.

Whose team is that? Is that, do you think that they. It's like the sanguine team that. Cause didn't they have like a run after Sanguine got hurt?

This is kind of the issue with them is they looked pretty good after he got hurt. Jalen Green looked great. Obviously, that was kind of the big top line story, but also amen. Thompson, who can't shoot at all, only really looks comfortable if you have like a true stretch big. Like Jabari is next to him and you let him kind of play a guard version of the four or five. And so can you put your most talented players on the floor on a consistent basis and win with what you got? I'm not entirely sure.

And then Van Vliet and Dylan Brooks.

I'm going to read you all their assets. Van Vliet, Jalen Green, Jabari Smith, who I really like, who I think could be in a playoff series.

I'm always like, Jabari Smith, 97. I'm always like, keeping him right in there.

We got to release the tapes on the Jabari Smith voting for top 100. There's some erratic entries.

First vote. I was just like, look, man, he looked incredible in summer league.

You know, like Dylan Brooks, Shangoon. They have Steven Adams as an expiring.

They do.

They have the number three pick in the draft, Cam Whitmore. I'm in Thompson and they have a. They can do the 12.9 million free agent exception. There's moves.

They have too many guys.

Tari east and coming back from injury.

Yeah, there's moves where like, they could just tomorrow trade Jalen Green for Mikael Bridges. Right. Or they could trade the number three pick and Jalen Green for one of the best 20 guys in the league. Like, I'm kind of prepared for anything with them. And I thought the 150 to one was too high. I'm not saying they're going to win the title, but they might be two moves away from being some.

It's true. But to Rob's point, I think they may have to decide, like, how. How this is all going to work because, like, I don't know if you can do sanguine. Is jokic junior and we're going to run everything through his amazing passing. But that might screw up.

They trade Shangoon. That could be in play, too. But I think this is the most interesting summer team to me.

Maybe they're an upside team for that reason. Cause they do have soul searching to do so. You can't get ahead of it. But once they do figure it out, they could rise really fast.

That that sort of a lower playoff play in area of the west is so crazy because not only do you have like legacy teams like the Lakers and the warriors, but you've got, like, the Kings, you've got the Pelicans, like, all these teams that are like, man, if that guy played or if this thing happened, like, you'd be like, I. I mean, there were moments last year where I was just like, is Zion a top ten guy? Is this going to happen now? You know, it's like, if he hasn't, doesn't hurt his hamstring. I don't know what they do.

And could the spurs get to 40 wins? Whenever the Jazz decide they want to be a competitive team, they're going to be in that mix. This is why, like, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about the Lakers and the warriors and what they're going to do. Those are playing teams in a really crowded conference that are going to have a hard time.

Notice I didn't bring either of them.

Like, bumping up higher is going to be tough for teams like that that are on the older side of things.

The only fun, the way the warriors become involved in conversations is if they just fucking lost it and like, traded for Jimmy Butler, like, or just made crazy move, like trading. They could trade Chris Paul for like another week. That's the one. They've got fun trade pace thing. So they could do, you know, Kaminga, Chris Paul, all their picks and try.

To get somebody seem like they're in this tough spot where it can't just be pleasant. It can't be like, man, these guys, they all stuck together and yeah, they only won like 45 games a season going forward, but it was cool. It's like, this is going to get ugly one way or the other. It's either like, clay's going to leave or they're going to resign Clay and it's going to be awkward. You know what I mean? Like, I don't really see a world.

In which, well, now that Draymond's turned into such a stable veteran force, I think it's probably going to be fine.

Can I slide one thing about this west, though, you know, we talk about specifically the. The luxury tax apron and the second apron. Teams are really aware of it right now and kind of what the penalties that will come with it are. The one thing to watch is if you are a second apron team at the end of this upcoming season, it's going to freeze your first round pick seven years out. And so I wouldn't be surprised if we see these teams who are second apron. Teams are likely to be the warriors. The Clippers suns are in that group. Celtics or Celtics are in that group. But I think in the east, there's a little less urgency. That's the thing. T wolves are in that group. Fuck it.

Yeah.

Like, trade this pick while you can before it gets frozen, and then all of a sudden, you have, like, one more asset to play with. Now, this year's offseason, this upcoming deadline, then you would.

And this isn't panic. Like, remember when it was like, I can't believe you gave Evan Turner that contract, and then the cap went up and it was like, the contract was okay? Like, will that happen with this second apron stuff? Or am I. Because everybody's like, second apron, second apron.

Everyone is really wary about it.

You say that, but the one thing we've learned over the course of NBA history is teams can't fucking help themselves. They just can't. They'd be like, wait, how much cap doing we get rid of?

One guy getting any more sane?

The demographics are changing, but they're all still equally Looney.

Let's take one more break. All right, one more Mavs thing. Could that have been Dallas is one big chance? Because you just talked about how good the west was. I'm not really positive what Dallas's move is, because they made all their moves. They traded all their assets. So basically, their one big move would have to be. And by the way, I would not rule this out. Cause I was really impressed by him in the Dallas games. But could Derek Lively become a guy?

He's already a guy.

No, I'm saying, like, a guy.

Capital Chandler.

Could he become a third star?

Tyson Chandler, who can pass?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I think is in play. I just don't know if you're getting that Kyrie season again at the same level. And also, like, I'd be alarmed that against OKC and against Boston, Kyrie was bad. Kyrie was bad in the Boston games. I thought Kyrie was bad in the.

Series, except for they got finals. So, like, whenever he was, there were nights where it, like, I think he was definitely deferential, and there might have been nights and he was bad, but, like, whatever he was doing, it worked.

I think he's also broadened out his game to the point Boston is a bad example. That's a really tough matchup for him. And just clearly some kind of mental funk playing in that building that he figure his way through. He's found ways to impact the game without just being the scorer whose turn he like, when the ball comes to him, he takes over. I think he's done well off the ball. I think he's been better as a defender. I think he's been better. Kind of fitting into a team concept, even around someone like Luca, who can be challenging to play with if you don't know how to do it. So I think even the games where he came up with twelve to 16 points, some of those were really good games.

The OKC especially, that's a perfect example. Um, so I would say live. We making a jump.

That's the one.

And then how about Luca being healthier? I don't know. We don't even need to talk about the being in shape thing. He definitely 100% was not healthy in that thing. And I saw him. I saw him in two clipper games in person. I saw it was at every finals game. That dude was not healthy. He learned to play at a certain pace, and I thought all the shit he took. Yeah, he wasn't good on defense.

He was going to take a lot of contact because that's his game. Like, every single game, he had the Kurt Schilling sock going with the blood coming out of his knee and stuff like that. Like, that's his game. And I think also, like, for a guy like that, I think that it kind of. It's kind of like playing on the edge is what gives him his juice. So it's like, I almost wonder whether or not, like, yeah, you know, you have to find your joy playing basketball, but, like, maybe screaming at refs is what fires him up and keeps him in this psycho zone.

Sometimes you gotta find your rage playing basketball.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like, I kind of think that, like, if I'm. If I'm Dallas, I'm pretty psyched with how all this played out, you know? Like, yeah, you didn't see what happened against Denver, but, like, I would not.

Well, they're going to lose Derek Jones.

Even if they were in for the four or five seed next season, I would still be like, I'm. I'm. I'm keeping my eye on Dallas. Yeah.

Yeah, they've earned that.

Especially if Luca comes in 15 pounds lighter and he's like, my knee is now 100%.

Yeah.

Like, that's just going to be a different team. I don't know how they're going to keep Derek Jones.

Is he playing the Olympics?

Luca? My guess would be, I think he's hurt. Like, I actually think he's arthroscopic surgery hurt.

He seemed pretty dinged up.

Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't right.

You could see it.

And I think the Celtics knew that the whole time, and that was one of the reasons they were going at him, because you look at the way he would play in the first half versus second halfs, he didn't seem like he had his legs in the same way with his three point shots. Three point shot was bad.

Well, there were points in the Thunder series where I was like, luke is dead. Like, lucas game one, he is getting slammed on the ground. He's barely getting up. And then he's, like, kind of, like, limping up the court, and then, like, again against the wolves, he looked like fucking Superman. So I don't really know what to say.

It's tough to gage in that way.

But, yeah, and Vita's like that, too, where you're like, oh, he just blew his knee out. And then it's like, oh, no.

He just.

Oh, no.

And he falls down. Yeah. Five times. Yeah. Lucas, six years, 22 conference finals, 2024 finals. This is a really good career.

Yeah.

If you said. If I asked you, Luca is definitely going to win a championship where Luka will never win a championship, which one would you pick? I think he's gonna. This is now a get up segment.

Yeah, no, we were talking about half.

One or the other.

We had one and a half titles for Lucas over. Under. We did this at group chat live last night. One and a half, and I smashed the under.

I would go under. I think he gets one, though.

I think it's the one. I feel like he feels like the kind of player who will win at some point, who will break through, but might need some things to break his way, even if that's just the conference kind of clearing out for him a little bit over time.

Yeah.

The best guys ever who didn't win a title. Charles Barkley, Carl Malone. I'm putting Elgin Baylor on there. Even though he got a ring. He retired during that 72 acres thing. I think he counts Ewing, James Harden, Steve Nash, George Gervin, Chris Paul Stockton, Iverson. So you list all those players, Lucas, better than all?

That's my thought. He is a better player, and that seems to be.

I love Barclay, but he's Lucas slightly better.

I'm having a braineurysm trying to understand Luca over Iverson right now.

Yeah, but, I mean, so that's the thing. If he doesn't win a title, he goes in that group, and it would feel like he's the best guy in that group. From what we've seen so far.

I think that this is a real building block. I think that they are like, okay, you know, conference, final, finals, it didn't go our way, but that's like a really weird game. Three away from maybe this being much more competitive.

Yeah.

And they can build off of that. And I think that they can go into any series, pretty much, with few exceptions being like, we've got the best guy.

I thought their team stunk in the finals for what they were capable of. Like, you just go through it. PJ sucked. He couldn't hit a three. Derek Jones couldn't hit a three. Klebo almost looked like his shoulders broken. Yeah, I think he, he couldn't make anything lively. Sucked in the Boston games. Like, you going down the line, like, and then I thought, kid coached a bad series. Like, I thought exim should have played a bunch. We were scared. Exemplary.

It took him a long time to figure out who should be playing game five.

Yeah. He was like, grabbing for straws. And on the one hand, it's like, oh, Jake, kid Wiley play a veteran figuring out. It's like, on the other hand, it's.

You play eleven guys. Yeah, yeah.

Play x him. He's tall and athletic and can create and didn't seem scared.

It's also like, it's easy to. Easy is strong. Usually the guy who coaches a good series is the guy who has all the options.

Yeah, right.

The Celtics have all the options.

It's only like, spo really, that we're like, oh, he might have gotten his ass kicked, but look at all the stuff he did. Well, yeah, yeah.

Where do you have Kyrie? Overrated. Properly rated. Underrated.

I think we've arrived at properly rated through, perhaps rose tinted glasses. Right. Like, they think we've.

This is a warm and fuzzy moment.

Yeah. I think we've arrived at, like, we got out of. We got out of this entire finals without a massive controversy. And also, you seem like you're in a better place, and every once in a while you just do something I've. I've only seen two dudes do on a basketball court in my life.

I think properly rated and I honestly, I think he's been properly rated this whole time. I think we were rightly down on him. I think he has changed a ton of things about how he does his job and what kind of teammate he is and who he is in the ecosystem of a franchise. And those are huge, meaningful things.

Several people have brought up the similarities between the Kyrie Luca pairing and the Kyrie LeBron pairing and Cleveland. And it did make me think a little bit about, like, the player empowerment era or the superstar movement era and the super team era and how infrequently those super teams actually, like, fit together as pieces. Yeah, Phoenix is a great example of this, where it's, like, nobody there really knows, like, what they're supposed to be doing. You know what I mean? And it'll be really interesting to see Bud coaching those guys and whether or not it all clicks together because Bun Holzer is a really good coach, or if it continues to be, like, three guys playing completely separate basketball games from one another. But, like, Kyrie found the partner he needed after years of wandering around looking for it. And it's. It'll be interesting to see if you found Greenwald. That's right.

Are you the Kyrie or are you the Luca?

Yeah, we don't. We don't talk about one a, one b, with the watch I have. Kyrie is overrated.

Currently overrated.

What a shock.

Yeah, what a shock. What am I, a Kyrie basher?

No, you have a history. Yeah, I talk relationship.

I talked to Jackie McMullen about this, but it was great to see her, and she put it perfectly. The players. The stuff Kyrie does, the players are the most impressed by it because they know how hard it is. And there's a lot of ex players on podcasts, on tv shows, and they all are glass half full, completely on Kyrie.

Who was it that called him the most? I think LeBron said he's the most skilled player in the history of the game.

I think a bunch of people are.

From the Con Smythe award.

Yeah. A bunch of people say stuff like that, though. He's the perk, does the whole. He's the skilled, most skilled offensive player ever. Kyrie has been 22 points a game in the playoffs for, like, seven years. Like, his last 44 games, he's 22 points a game. He's 45% shooting, but it's always allowed 22. And I thought in this series, like, I just thought the Celtics were pretty easily able to control. Yeah, he took 20 shots a game, and he didn't, you know, 19.8 shots a game, 19.8 points a game. And a lot of hero ball stuff. A lot of stuff down the stretch that they were just easily able to stop and make them take bad shots. Game three, Luca fouls out. That was kind of the moment for.

Him, but that was so chaotic. Like, I think that was a moment, though.

It's like, like, if. All right, if Kyrie is really the most skilled offensive player ever and as good as everyone says, like, okay, let's see it.

This is.

This is the time.

This is why teams do not build around undersized guards.

You know?

Like, I think it's like that moment showed the limitations of his shot making, and so did this really. The celtic series more broadly. Really good. When you can kind of put him off to the side playing off, you.

Can be a guy. But if five guys are like, absolutely not. You are not.

Like, every possession lives and dies on you. Working a high pick and roll the way Luca does, your team will fail. And that's like, that's fine. Not many guys can do that.

Where'd you have them in top hundred item 23rd?

I think I ended up a little higher than that, but roughly that range. I remember I ended up with him like Jamal Murray, dame, like that kind of peer group, which is not a bad place to be.

No, and that's the thing. He's played himself back into that group. But the way people were talking about him, like, as an all time incredible, I don't think he's the guy that he was in 16 and 17 anymore. And the stats back it up. He was more explosive. He was a better shooter. He was 27 to 30 plus every playoff game. And he's just not that guy anymore.

I mean, who among us is the same guy we were at 26. We've seen some shit.

I just was surprised that glass half full with him. Like, you don't care about Kyrie either way. What did you think, agnostically watching it?

Yeah, I think he's capable of dazzling moments. And I think within the context of that team, he was very effective. Like, there has to be some knock on effect from the way Kyrie chose to play and the way that Gafford and Lively and Washington improved over the course of the playoffs.

But when it got to, do you have the two best guys in the series? And people were making that point in a real, like, serious way. Like, that's why I was like, holy shit. What are you guys fucking doing? They went 1532 during the season and then won some players.

Kyrie didn't single handedly beat the Celtics in game three when they came all the way back.

I agree.

Like, Luca fucked that up by not getting his head on his shoulder.

He did. I'm just saying that that was a moment for Kyrie, okay. That maybe you come through there and you win that game.

Yeah. But it was, like, more of a.

Moment where I was, like, hugely successful playoff run for Luca, even though he's gotten a lot of criticism for Kyrie, even though we've seen some as limitations.

Lively, I think, was the other. They clearly have some. Something really special.

And he did this in a point where, like, wasn't it a mid season ownership transfer? I mean, like. Like, the amount of stuff going on behind the scenes.

Like, heard some fun stuff about that. Do we have a conspiracy podcast?

Oh, I had talked about the karen, retrieve this out, but I had a good one.

What?

LeBron to Dallas into the Derek Jones junior slot, and then Miriam Adelson breaks him off something in Vegas for the expansion team, and, like, gives him a hotel.

Just gives him a cassette down the line.

So, like, he signs to Dallas and, like, for, like, a minute.

That's a good one. Why do we have to break that out?

That's great.

I had this for you later. This is my dream. The Celtics have the 30th draft pick.

Take Ronnie.

Yeah. So here's my case. Rob.

You think LeBron's coming to the Celtics?

Aren't you glad he said, rob?

Hit me with it.

Everyone says this draft sucks. The Celtics are so deep. Like, they have guys, like, you know, like, Walsh can't get them on the court, right? Who would probably be. If he entered this draft, he would probably be in that 30 to 40 range anyway. Anyone in this draft isn't going to play for them. It'll probably be a stash guy. They're going to have to carry the salary. Why not take brawny and you basically hold him hostage? Because all these other teams want him.

To take it all.

Yeah.

No, no, no. I'm saying, like, for the asset. Oh, the Lakers. You want him? Well, we took brawny. Give us Max Christie. How bad do you want him? Yeah, I would say brawny, the asset at 30 as a trade thing is worth more than anyone they could get there.

It's good to see you. You know, you got. You won the finals, and this is.

Our fuck you moment. This is Ben Affleck saying, I just won for argument. We take. We win the title. Now we're taking Brady James.

Only a fucking white confetti is coming down. Jason Tatum is holding his son. My father is next to me. I love him. And you're like, you know what we should do is draft LeBron's fucking son.

Just trying to rip an american family.

Come play with us, LeBron, we have your son. And Philadelphia's, like, getting bad rep. You know, it's like. It's, like, taken. We have your son.

LeBron is truly deranged behavior, but whatever.

He'S worth to the. To the team that ultimately wants to keep LeBron or lure LeBron is worth more than the 30th pick.

Can I show you the alternate future version of that where those teams don't bite? And then Bronny is on the Celtics, and literally every day people are asking Joe Bazzula, like, when is Bronnie going to get the call up from the main card out?

Yeah, that's pretty good.

And Joe Maz is like, did you call God today? That's a better question.

Have you seen the departed? Well, Rich Paul said that he is going to not do a two way contract.

He said yes. Yes.

So that's another reason I thought that. So if it's an asset, I don't know. I just thought it was a fun idea. Cause the reason I thought of it was. Cause today, Kyle and Tate. Kyle Mann and Tate and Koc, they were texting me about some dude who was projected to be at the Celtics pick at 30. It was some french guy who I've never heard of, who was averaging 6.8 points a game.

It's a very french draft.

And I was like, really? That's who we're gonna take? I would just rather have Brody James, but I'd been thinking about this for a while. Like, it's actually like the Mack daddy move. Take him as a trade ass.

This is great. Cause I was nervous about introducing the idea of Miriam Adelson buying clutch casino. And I just hold back.

Air blowing out.

Literally holding LeBron's son for ransom.

Yeah, well, he's entering the draft. You enter the draft. Is this like, literally, teams are available to take you?

This is almost literally the plot of celtic sprite, isn't it?

Bill just wants to make a video where LeBron is going, give me back my son.

Could we get Max Christie from the Lakers if we took Ronnie James at 30?

I don't think so.

Why not?

I don't think so, Zachary, because Brad.

Stevens is going to take the french guy. And let me remind you, you guys have been picking towards the end of the season thing, and you're always just like, I can't believe we didn't get Thiborg. You know, like Nismith. I hear a lot of good things. It doesn't matter because he was fucking doing brown.

Speaking of the Lakers. Cause it's day two after the title. Everyone's having better. Franchise Lakers versus Celtics Combos.

Are they?

Yeah, that's. I saw it on two shows today, all time. So the actual titles battle is Celtics 18, Lakers allegedly 17. Because the Lakers count their five titles they won in Minneapolis, correct? Yeah. Before the shot clock existed, which they only acknowledged in one banner, but somehow. Count all the five titles post Bill Russell titles since 1970. Lakers have twelve since 1970. Celtic, seven. Bulls, six. Spurs, five. Wars, four. Do you count the Minnesota titles, Rob?

Yes, they're titles. How else am I supposed to. Supposed to delineate? When does time start?

Give me the.

I'm going to give you some titles. Just ask if these count for the cities. The 1979 Seattle SuperSonics does okay say get to count that title?

I think they technically do, but they have respectfully chosen not to.

Of like, you mean like how the Lake. The LA Lakers have respectfully not chosen to.

Did the Lakers steal the team? Like. Yeah.

Well, they. The guy moved it from Minneapolis to the Lakers. Minneapolis didn't have basketball for 30 years after that. What should have happened is when they got the expansion team, they should have gotten the history.

Here's my. Here's my twist to this. I do think you should be able to count the titles from your old city, but that old city should get to have a parade when you win a title.

Oh, I like that.

Oh, interesting.

So they should have a parade in Minnesota. Like, next time the Lakers win, there should be like a Minnesota parade.

Well, I'll ask you, Sierra.

Uh huh.

The 55 Syracuse nationals. Do you count that one?

Yeah.

Where were you?

Where were you, Chris?

Syracuse Nationals was what, 1955?

That counts as a Philadelphia name?

A guy named Syracuse nationals?

I'm just saying that counts as the title for you, apparently.

I mean, yeah, there's only.

I'll give you another one. The 1951 Rochester Royals. The Sacramento Kings get to count that as a title even though they move three times.

Is there any Boston stuff or is all Boston. It's just been Boston original.

The only one. I did this, like six years ago for a video mailbag about. If it's more than 150 miles away from where you play now, you have to drop it.

Right?

So the Baltimore bullets in ₩48, the title, and eventually they moved to Washington. I think I'm okay with that one. Baltimore Washington. That's like what? A 50 minutes car wide regional. And then the New York Nets won in Long island and 74 and 76 ABA move to Brooklyn event jersey and then Brooklyn. I'm okay with that. Okay, that sounds like a title.

This is like watching someone win an election and then gerrymander all the districts so they can never lose again. That's what we're watching in real time.

Because the Laker fans are still claiming they won 17.

Yeah.

And I just. I just don't see it. I don't understand how they count the Minneapolis ones.

Well, you have more than them.

I don't personally understand it.

Okay.

Like, would you care if, like, the Denver Eagles won the Super bowl in 1970?

No, because I would never cheer for the Eagles again. If they left Philadelphia, I wouldn't be like, I don't. I mean, I don't think if historically the Denver Eagles started and they were like, and we also have this Eagles Super Bowl, I probably would be salty about it, but I don't know that I would be able to do anything about it.

Like, do you think that you're like.

There'S two different things happening here. You want it to be definitive that the Celtics are the better a topic.

For the last 24 hours. Lakers versus Celtics.

Well, here's the reality. It may not be an issue because I think it's going to be a minute before the Lakers are actual championship contenders again. And the Celtics are really good right in this second.

I can't count the Lakers out ever just because of their history of just landing superstars. When you least expect that's true. Like, could they flip LeBron for Paul George in three weeks? And then the Clippers will have Bronny. No, I know, but it's just. You just never know with them. Like, everything's in play with them at all times because so many people, you know, I think they're. The Celtics are the most famous franchise in the league, but the Lakers have probably been, you know, in the mix more consistently than the Celtics. The Celtics from.

I don't think that the 93 Lakers are a more renowned franchise than the Celtics. Don't you?

What do you think? I'm not going to answer.

What does what is renowned mean?

I don't know. Like, if you close your eyes and think of the NBA, what are the. What's the first team you think of?

I think I would think it'd be the Lakers.

Yeah.

I think they're probably the most internationally famous, and some of it is some of the more recent star power to even just, like, Kobe versus Garnett. And Pierce. Right. Like, those are different levels of iconography that I think registered differently with people.

The Shaq Kobe era swings it a little bit because that's. Basketball is getting bigger after Jordan, and then they have this whole relevant decade where they win five titles.

They've also probably had lower lows, to be honest. Like, the bad Lakers seasons are real bad, but they do bounce back, even.

You think, like from twelve to today. Like, they made the one finals that they won in the bubble, which they didn't even get to celebrate here, and they made a conference finals, but other than that, it was like lottery. Lottery. They picked. They had the second pick, the whole baby Lakers era. Yeah, yeah, I think I have everything. Yeah, that's it.

Do you want to talk about basketball? Everyday talk culture? That was the last one you had for us.

I think I have an answer for it. I think the videos have gotten really good now with the 60 to 92nd clips that you're talking about, the clips.

On the ringer YouTube channel.

Just. No, on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, wherever you find this stuff, that these little instant debate argument, things are just the best they've ever been. And that's why I feel so omnipresent. Feels like every day there's some sort of massive thing happening and it's not really that massive. You just move on to the next.

Yeah.

Best in terms of, like, effective or it's getting. It's getting at some interesting talking point.

Well, just. It's just cutting to the core of some sort of something.

Yeah.

Whereas I just don't think we were doing that even ten years ago, like, when we were doing Grantland didn't exist like that. It just felt way more big picture.

Twitter, basketball. Twitter was like sort of emergent. I mean, I brought this up because you had mentioned you were just like, is this like the sort of, where are we at with like everyday basketball media culture and stuff like that? And I did think about, like, so when we started Grantlin, NBA Twitter was kind of emerging right around then, and it was people, like, live tweeting games. Like, you would look at your Twitter feed and it would just be like, whoa. And you'd kind of dispatch. But you would know what they were talking about. You were following 600 people and 550 of them were tweeting about the Knicks that night. Night. But I was thinking back to, like, when I first started writing about basketball, just for fun on like a blog in 2003 or four. And that was a dark time for the league. Like, that was not like a very, like. Like, popular moment for the NBA.

That used to be when I made the jokes about how I was one of the only 20 fans left.

Right. And that was a lot of, like, a half joked.

Yeah. And before that, that was, like, our test melee.

Yeah.

People were bored by the spurs code. Yeah. It was like, scores were down.

I was really into, like, the Carmelo Nuggets Kobe trial.

Wasn't a blast. Yeah, there's a lot of bad stuff.

But in, like, that kind of moment, I think that there was just, like, a lot more space to just have your own personal passions and obsessions with the NBA. You could get into, like, a weird, bad player, and you'd be like, I don't know. I just love Kenya Martin. I don't know what to tell you. And that could be something you talked about with your friends, like, kind of over beers and stuff like that. And now I think, if you want, you can be inundated with basketball analysis. Basketball takes basketball stats, basketball highlights, from the moment you open your eyes to the moment you close them. And that's just a different experience of a sport than I think we used to have, like, 20 years ago. It's not better or worse. I guess I know more about basketball than I ever did. I suppose there's that. You feel. I mean, what do you do? What do you feel?

I think that was a bad playoffs, but it didn't seem like a bad playoffs because we had something to talk about every day. But when we look back at the playoffs, the Philly New York series was super fun. Yeah, it just was good theater. The Denver Minnesota game seven was awesome. I thought the OKC Dallas entire series was really good. The two Boston Indiana games at Indiana were good. Game three, Dallas Boston was good. But for the most part, we were really.

We created an apparatus where we have to talk about it all the time.

There was always something to talk about, but it wasn't a good playoffs.

No.

Right.

I think we're better at filling that vacuum. When the games leave something to be desired, the conversation can be interesting and take turns. That is definitely omnipresent in the way you're saying. Maybe not always healthy, but there is a movement to it that is interesting and can keep it from feeling stale.

Right.

What I worry about is the moments where the playoffs do deliver. When we have all this machinery that we've designed to have these debates and have these conversations. Is Derek White a real Hooper? Like, whatever the fuck that means? What happens when the games are great and the series are great?

Yeah. Let me ask you this, if this had been one. One going back to Dallas or no, I guess it was the beginning of the finals.

How about two? Two going back to Dallas.

What if it was an awesome finals and we were still, like, into game three? There was still like, is Dan Hurley going to take the Lakers job was a bigger story than the finals. Like, that's where I find we're getting a little bit out of whack with it.

Well, and then that Dan Hurley thing, part of the reason, I mean, maybe most people don't care about it, but at least in the media and our circles, like, the machinations of that story were as fascinating as the story. Like, why is the story happening? Where is this coming from? Is this real? Who has the game from it? And it becomes, you know, fucking Oliver Stone territory all of a sudden?

I mean, who has to gain from it? Apparently, as every booker for every radio show after he took that deal, except somehow the ringer. Exactly.

We forgot to put in our request to get Dan Hurley time. Yeah, I just thought the playoffs weren't very good, and I think it had so much to do with the injuries and just that. And then the Minnesota Denver series, which should have been the greatest series, and the games weren't good. It was one team or the other team just dominating until game seven. And then game seven was awesome.

You don't think that series was good?

I thought that that series was just not game to. It was game fascinating, but game to game, you're not watching any of those games this summer.

Sure.

OKC Dallas was really good. And I thought Philly, New York was awesome.

Yes.

But then you get to that next New York Indiana series. It was one of the worst game six seven situations like, we've ever had.

I mean, the Knicks were out there with, like, guys they found on the street.

Boston, Miami should have been awesome. It sucked. Milwaukee Indiana could have been really fun. It sucked. It was just a lot of. So I hope next year. I hope next year's hope.

Everybody's healthy next year.

That's the thing. A lot of the wind was taken out of all those sales. Cause Giannis can't play. Tyrese Halliburton has to leave. The Knicks are running half their roster.

Jimmy Butler goes down in the first game and beads playing on like one leg.

Yeah.

Yep.

I wonder if the Olympics is gonna be better than the NBA playoffs was.

That could be.

I think that's in play. Cause France, that'll be. That team will be fun. And they're playing home. Canada is going to be good. If jokic plays and gives a shit, that'll be interesting. Our team.

Is Germany good, or did they just win the World cup?

Because, like, Germany's good.

Yeah, they're good.

There's a lot of, like, teams that you don't want to fall asleep on.

Australia.

And then our team, which they designed as this, like, athletic. Everybody switches on D shooting. And then Embiid and LeBron and Kawhi are playing now, and Kawhi's a big x factor, doesn't play like that, and neither does LeBron. And then it's. Now it's like, are we doing. Is this like, a 92 dream team situation where this is the Olympics now about LeBron and Curry and Durant and these guys in this generation? Like, this is their big moment. Are we trying to win? Are we trying to push the young guys? There's a lot of agendas all the way around.

Fascinating. Yeah, yeah.

And I don't know how it plays out, but I don't know. This is what they were expecting a year ago, and then all of a sudden you had all these guys going, yeah, I'm going to play. And they're like, oh, cool, great.

Will there be any knock on effect from it both in terms of, like, the guy who's at Team USA who's like, the light bulb went on, which is honestly best case scenario for Embiid. For me, you know, as a Sixers fan, is like, embiid going, and be like, I figured out a couple of things being around these dudes that I need to bring back to Philly.

Turns out being in shape is important.

Or doesn't mean, you know, what I really want to do is play with Anthony Edwards. So goodbye.

I've got his hotel room every day.

Just be glad Jalen Brunson isn't on the team. Seriously.

Jesus Christ.

And then you have LeBron asking Tatum, like, hey, do you think the Celtics can release my son?

You got a back channel? Look, you gotta have someone to work the angles.

I know it was a smart move for them to take a bit 30, but can we just.

I don't think Brad Stevens has that gear.

No, he.

I could see you doing it.

Oh, definitely. Ainge might do it in with Utah with one of those picks. He's probably looking at it like, we could get Max Crispy and hood Shafino.

Give us both.

Chris Ryan. Good to see you. Rob Mahoney. Good to see you. Kyle Creighton. Jack Wilson produced this podcast. Thanks for coming in today, guys. And I don't know if I'm doing another podcast this week, don't forget about the rewatchables, which did the longest yard. That was super fun.

Yeah.

That is up there now. You can find on the YouTube Ringer movies channel that we have.

Yeah.

Talk the thrones on Sundays after game of thrones, house of the dragon talk the throne.

The Dragon show. Why don't you just call it the dragon show?

I don't think you hbo.

We should send Casey bloys a note.

Be like, could've been like, it's the dragon show.

There's your theme right there.

Just tell me one thing that happened in the first episode.

Kid got killed.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

By a dragon.

No.

Was there fire and black magic and sorcery?

There was none of that actually. It was just straight up child murder.

Did it, did anything happen with the canton police or. No. All right, good to see you guys. Thanks.

Thanks, Bill.

I don't have few years with him on the wayside on the bruce. I don't have whoever.