Coming up, just an incredible, incredible, incredible ending to Nick Sixers. Plus a lot of football. My dad next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network. Put up a new rewatchables. On Monday night, me and Kyle Brandt did the running man. We had a great time. What a fun movie. Arnold Schwarzenegger predicting the future. That's basically what that movie is about. You can watch that eventually on YouTube.com. Bill Simmons where we put up all three watchables. We're also brought to you by Fanduel Sportsbook, where on Wednesdays we do a little profit boost token, where if you make an NBA bet and it wins, you get 30% of a boost. So I'm going to tweet out some sort of bet that I like on Wednesday on my Twitter feed. Coming up on this podcast a little bit later, Nate Tice is going to talk football with us. We're going to talk quarterbacks. We're going to talk Drake May. We're going to talk about his three or four teams in the NFL that he feel are he feels are undervalued right now as we head toward the summer and everybody trying to figure out NFL futures.

Really fun talk with him. I brought my dad on at the tail end to talk about the Boston Celtics and the New England Patriots and our new QB. And then coming out of the gate, Sean fantasy, he's popped on this pot a few times. You know him from the rewatchables and the big picture. He is just an absolutely furious, angry Knicks fan. We had to bring on a true friend, a true fan to talk about that Nick Sixers game, which was absolutely unbelievable, incredible. And I had initially planned on talking about Orlando, Cleveland, which by the way was a great game. Cleveland ends up winning on a Evan Mobley block. I'm feeling good about my mobile stock, but Paolo was great and that was a really nice back and forth game. Milwaukee, Indiana, in which I'm taping my intro right as that game's going on. But it seems like Milwaukee is going to win and send it back to Indiana for game six. We'll see if that happens. But fantasy, we had to do Knicks and we had to bring in fantasy. So he is talking from the fans perspective. Don't take anything he says personally, but he is coming up next.

First, our friends from Pearl.

Chip.

Are we taping this first part of the podcast? It's past 740 Pacific time. The Cavs just beat the magic. Tough loss for our guy Steve Cerruti, but an even tougher loss for our guy, Sean fantasy, who's here. One of the most improbable playoff losses I can ever remember. And we'll see if it matters, Sean, because sometimes these happen and then the team wins the series anyway and it just becomes a blip. And hopefully, for your sake and the sake of the Knicks fans, that's going to happen. But that was about as improbable and a crazy of a loss as I've seen. Walk us through what you're feeling.

Well, as you know, I, I don't actually have a lot of experience with the loss like that. The Knicks just have not had a lot of gut wrenching playoff losses in the last 30 years. You know, they've obviously had a few in the mid nineties that were devastating, but when those were happening, I was like twelve years old. It take, takes me back. It takes me back to Charles Smith, you know, it takes me back to those painful moments when you felt like it was within your grasp. This one's a little tough because I really want this Sixers team to be burned alive. Like, I really hate them and I just really want this series to be over. And there's a part of, there's a sick part of me that's just like, you know what? Go to the second round. If you win against the Pacers, great. If you lose, fine. But I have just grown to despise and be in awe of Tyrese Maxey, and I just don't want to have to see him anymore. I'm just sick of it. So I'm feeling really sad and also kind of just stunned and unable to get my head around what just happened.

Plus, so you're up 106 100. There's less than 30 seconds left. Timeout. And they're cutting to everybody in the crowd. And it's just like the craziest mixture of famous New York fan celebs and then actual people who played on the Knicks. And anywhere the camera is going, there's just like three more people are like, oh, him. Oh, those guys. And it just felt like, holy shit to have this game. In game two, the Knicks are officially alive. And then in a heartbeat, it changed.

Yeah, there was a moment, I think it was at like 59 seconds when they went up six, and there was a cutaway to the crowd. And you saw LJ and you saw spree and you saw Starks and you saw Patrick Ewing sitting down and people.

Oh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

Reaching over and, like, grabbing him by the shoulder and clutching him. And I was sitting there with my three year old, and I was like, that's Patrick Ewing, this is the Knicks. Like, it was a really genuine emotional moment. And I never would have thought, I shouldn't say that I felt confident that they were going to win the game. And the way that they let it slip through their fingers is just maddening. I mean, I actually don't know. I could recount every single moment that just happened, but each one that happened had to happen for it to become a bad loss. Now, you know, like, in the grand scheme of things, you're right. They're up three two. They were up three one. I think they've basically outplayed and out hustled the Sixers this entire series, and I expect them to do the same thing in game six. But just replaying that last minute in my head, like, I feel like I'm getting a migraine. Like, it hurts very, very hard.

Yeah, because Maxi made, he made a couple shots when it felt like you had the game, but then the 106, 100, less than 30 seconds left timeout, 28.2 left, which is, I think, the exact same time of heat. Spurs game 620 19, I think was also 28.2. I'm not positive, but I'm like 99% positive.

The Ray Allen shot.

Yeah, well, it was the plays that led up to the Ray Allen shot.

Right?

Right. They come out of the timeout and Robinson's out there, which I just thought was weird because at that point, you just have to have guards and small forwards and everybody's switching on everything. So they set a pick on him and he comes back around and fouls Maxie, and they're like, oh, that's two. His foot was on the line. They showed the replay it wasn't the random four point play. So now you have the LJ four point play energy. Suddenly in the game, it goes from six points to two. And that was one. And then the other was Maxi then hits the second one after the Hartmist free throw, reminiscent of the Ray Allen game where, you know, Manu had to miss the free throw to basically get it going. Then Kawhi missed a free throw, but the maxi two threes, reminiscent of the Reggie Miller hit the two threes in the playoff game game. So you dip back into Knicks history for two of the craziest Nick playoff games at MSG ever. And it both happens in 25 seconds.

On all of my text chains. The Mitchell Robinson point is, is percolating hard right now because he honestly was great in the final five minutes of the game leading up to that final minute, he was denying the entry on Embiid. He forced a bunch of turnovers. He was knocking the ball loose left and right. He played really well. He's obviously not 100%, but in that situation, I mean, I even would rather just have Hardenstein out there. I think he is a better option in a situation like that. Cause he's just more limber and he's like, he's not going to make a lurching foul like that. And, I mean, credit to Maxie, he's just a. He's just a sorcerer tonight. I mean, he was unbelievable. He was like a. He was like the roadrunner out there. Like, no one could catch him. He was hitting crazy shots. And, yeah, it did feel. It felt karmic for game two. You know, obviously, a lot of things broke their way. Game two. And then there has been some crazy luck in the Knicks direction and some crazy luck against the Knicks over the years in games like this.

The garden with 1 minute left, that seemed as crazy as it was ever going to be. And then by the end of regulation, that's got to be as much as the wind has ever been taken out of their sails.

Like, I don't.

Did anybody see that, that series coming?

Max, he finishes with 46 and the two threes he makes, he scores seven points in the last 28 seconds on two possessions, which is basically impossible. I don't even know if that's happened before in a big playoff game. I'd be interested. I know that they can run all the numbers, but just somebody scoring seven points on two possessions to tie a game, I'd be interested to see if that happened before the second three.

The second three is really hard to accept, though, because the move is obviously to foul there and to not get a foul in that situation is just. It's a blunder. I don't know if that's Tibs's fault or if they just couldn't execute or what happened, but he should never be able. I mean, it was an amazing 35 foot three pointer from the top of the key, but he. He shouldn't be taking that shot. They shouldn't allow that to happen, and they did.

Well, but that's what's crazy about those two threes. The first one, he's completely off balance getting fouled, then just heaves it up and it goes in. But those are the ones, like, those never go in. And then the second one, he shoots it. Cause he doesn't want to get fouled. And I'm gonna say that was a 32 footer but that's about as great with, when you're talking about your seasons on the line, basically, and you have to make it. That's up there. If they win the series, that will go up there with one of the great shots. Just cause like I was watching on Twitter, they, they ran the other day, they ran. Jerry west made that shot in the 1970 finals. The busher scores in LA with like 5 seconds left and the Lakers inbound it. They don't have any timeouts. And Wes just is like, I guess I'll just have to make this 65 footer or whatever it was, and he just makes it. The maxi thing was a little like that. Cause if he misses that, the season's over and he buried it. It's not like it bounced around. It was like swish.

Well, also, he did it with like eight and a half seconds on the clock. So just from a strategic perspective, like it was crazy because he was trying to avoid getting fouled. But he also left a lot of time on the clock. There could have been a big rebound bounce and kicking out, giving them another opportunity. And I will say the Sixers, after getting their asses kicked on the boards all series, kind of outworked the Knicks in the second half of this game. Knicks were not good at rebounding in the second half. But anyway, he hits that shot and they still have a chance. And Brunson is blazing down the court with 8 seconds left and he just gets his shot blocked at the end of regulation.

I didn't love that last possession. Did you have a timeout left or. No, I don't remember. Yeah, I didn't love that last shot by him. Poor Brunson. Ends up 15 for 32, is 40 points again and gets out. Outshined, out. Shown. Used to be an editor. Outshone or outshined for?

For the purposes of Soundgarden acknowledgement, we'll say outshined Soundgarden jam.

Yeah, gets outshined by Tyrese Maxey. So I have two different things for you. One is I just off top of my head, I did a tiny bit of research, but most improbable losses. And I think this is different than craziest losses, comeback losses, great shots. These are games that I specifically remember watching, thinking the game was over and not even in the back of my head thinking the other team was going to come back. So that Ray Allen shot we mentioned, that's that game was a wrap. They're putting the rope around the court. Bird steals the ball is at that game. He missed the shot. Ball goes out of bounds, 5 seconds left, and we're all devastated. We think the game's over. The Derek Fisher shot is a really underrated one for this because that swung, who went to the finals? And by the way, every, every shot I'm going to give you, somebody went to the finals. Duncan makes a crazy, like one legged, I don't know if, I can't remember if it's a three or a long two, but it goes in. Lakers go, they're down one with 0.4 seconds left, leading to that crazy Fisher shot that swings the series.

Lakers go on to lose to the Pistons, but that was a good spurs team. And then the regiment were two straight threes where they're up six, tied. Then the foul, the offensive foul on Starks after the rebound, and all of a sudden the Knicks are winning. So here's the thing. Out of those other five, maxi from the logo would be the six, but the other five, the team won the series. If Max, if Philly doesn't win the series, I think this just becomes a really funny, it's been classic game and that's it.

Yeah, we're, it's a we're in prisoner of the moment territory right now. Like, this is the first round. It just, it just feels more consequential because the Knicks are never in this situation. This has been an incredible series. Every single game has been a barn burner. I think the point differential for the entire series is plus two for the Sixers. So that's just, that just means that everything has been exciting about it. It's just, I've, I've never seen, just like you, I've never seen a guy score seven points in 28 seconds in the way that he did. I mean, it was just, it was remarkable and devastating and, you know, OG ananobi missed free throw. Josh Hart missed free throw.

There was terrible short armor the first.

One, and it was his second short armor of the quarter. He did something earlier in the quarter, too. They missed a bunch of free throws. Brunson was gas. He missed a free throw. Like, you know, I can't, I don't, I can't not bring up Embiid, though.

Who is just, let's talk about it.

Just like a punk bully bitch who I cannot believe is allowed to play in the NBA, him getting a flagrant foul up four with 90 seconds left in an overtime game, that's do or die is one of the corniest, loseriest things I've ever seen. Hitting a six foot guard in the face on a critical play in overtime. Does he have brain damage? Like, what the hell was that?

After.

After mailing in one of the most pathetic efforts that I've ever seen from a superstar in a closeout game.

What a dickhead.

Like, what was that? Like, what Sixers fan is gonna be like, that was cool. He hit Brunson in the face with up four.

That's.

That was awful. That's a bad look for the league.

Yeah.

How'd you feel about it?

Are there.

Are there people in Philadelphia right now who are like, embiid is my favorite player? Like, what? What the fuck was that, Bill?

Well, I was monitoring this. He had nine turnovers in the fourth quarter, and then he had two more turnovers, but somehow the number stayed at nine. But I'm positive he had two more after I looked, and it was nine. Um, he was seven for 19 for the game. He played some good defense in the OT. Um, but he was so sloppy with the ball.

There were.

There were moments where, I mean, it felt like he could have had even more turnovers than he had, and it just felt like, this is one of the crazy things about this game. If Philly just loses, if maximizes that shot from the logo, that might have been Embiid's last game for the Sixers, that might have been the end of the process. There are all these, like, sliding door scenarios where then, then the spotlights on him. It's like, what the fuck was that game? You had nine turnovers, you made. You made five shots. What'd you do? And the OT kind of got it back. And now there. Now there could be a different narrative of, that guy's a warrior. He played hurt the whole game. He came through in the OT. He had some big defensive positions on Brunson, but it felt like he had basically had a fork in him until the maxi seven pointer, he didn't seem.

Like he could really hold the ball in the fourth quarter. It kept getting poked out of his hands in the final six minutes of the game. You know, he's obviously insanely talented, and he did. I mean, he rejected Brunson aggressively in OT on that one drive. That was pretty critical in the game. But I don't know, like, everything is just very stage managed with him. You know, the alert that he had a migraine and he was questionable for the game before the game, you know, putting out the bell's palsy news after he took tugged at Mitchell Robinson's ankle. Like, he's just a clown. He's like a totally stage managed social media clown. And he's a great player, of course, but I. I just really, really hope they put them to bed in Philadelphia. I really do, because I'm sick of hearing about him. I hope this is the end of the process. I'm sick of hearing about all of that crap.

I'm.

I give it up completely to Tyrese Maxey, who is an amazing player and, like, an unbelievable down the line superstar. But, uh, I just. I really have grown to despise and beat, as you know, over the course of the last two weeks.

It's crazy that you don't. You like him less than Kyle Lowry, who's one of your least favorite athletes.

Well, there's no secret about that. Like, Kyle Lowry's not trying to be like, I'm the best guy in the league. I'm a super nice guy. Like, he's a 38 year old veteran who's made his entire career on playing this way and beat, is bigger than everybody and is literally hitting six foot tall guys on the head.

Like, what if you.

If a defensive end hits a quarterback on the head, he's ejected from the game and suspended? Like, this is.

What are we doing? You know, Larry had a good one. Brunson was taking big free throws, I think, at the end of regulation. I can't remember, but Larry used to this during the Celtics, too, so I was watching for it. He's on the bench and right, you know, it was when it was the flagrant, when he had the two free throws with nobody around and Laura's on the side, and right as Brunson's about to shoot, Lowry waves his hand, starts yelling instructions. He's doing that thing. It's like, oh, oh, you need to do this literally right now on the first of two free throws. But that's the kind of shit he does. He walks into people's sight lines like he's just all about the gamesmanship. It didn't work in that case.

But the difference is, is if Lowry played for the Knicks, we would worship him. And if he played for the Knicks, I would be disappointed. Like, that's really where it's at. Like, I really don't. I don't want to root for somebody who's basically picking on people. With Lowry, it's like he's trying to stay alive in the game. Like, he's using every trick in the book. You know, it's annoying. Obviously. It's really hard to watch. Uh, well, one, I mean, he's just putting a number on. On Devo, like Devon Chenzo. No one's really talking about this, but, like, he was their second or third best offensive player for the last two months of the season. He's average eight points a game in the series. Like, he's not. He has not done anything, so he's obviously given them problems. Three, four has played really well. You know, Batum played really well today, too. Batum was. Was shadowing Brunson all game like. Guys who are you don't really think about as serious playoff players are playing really well in this series. But yeah, I don't know. I've been making a sincere effort to not drink alcohol during the week.

This is something that I'm doing in my forties and I immediately poured myself a tall glass of gin immediately after this game.

Nick's played seven guys today. Deuce McBride played 33 minutes and has hit. When he launches jumpers, the entire crowd screams Deuce. So congrats to him.

He is the man.

No, Bogdanovich out for the. For the playoffs. Randall's obviously gone. Robinson's playing hurt. He didn't play precious tonight, and nobody else on the roster, I guess, is going to play. So this is it. You're rolling with seven guys from now on.

And if seven minute rotation is tough.

And the defense enjoyed point is key because he was the only other guy who could kind of create a shot himself. OG can sort of try to do it, but it doesn't, you know, and Deuce can do it if he's coming off a pick. But you really felt it in the OT. It was just like, all right, Jalen, one more time. It's just the same play over and over and over and over again, you know?

I don't know if that's Jalen calling his number. I assume it is. You could feel that a little bit in the OT that he wasn't really going to let anyone else shoot. They weren't really working their offense. They were only working the Jalen offense, which is a little hard to watch. But also, if you've just watched even Tenzo go for three for ten for the fourth straight game, like, I'm not sure what other choice he has. OG, I don't know. OG, I was a little down on the first couple of games. I felt like they needed to give him more. He's been pretty damn good. He had a couple of moments in the fourth quarter of this game that were breathtaking. Like he had the. He had the garden in his hands at one point. I don't know. They're just, you know, they're missing Randall like, you can just see that they're missing, they're missing an offensive player. They need a guy right now and they just don't have him. And so it'll be great.

Duran will be able to carry some of the load.

I was told Devin Booker wants to come. And, you know, when I was on with you and Howard a few, few weeks ago, I think we were dreamcasting.

The potential that's been the devil for four years. I mean, his guys are running the Knicks, so everybody is.

We'll do that. Let's do, let's pick up bogey's option. We'll trade bogey and three first rounders straight up for, for booker, who's probably.

Going to have to include some more stuff in that.

Deuce.

McBride. Untouchable. Devo? Untouchable. Josh Hart? Untouchable. Precious. Untouchable. Og. Untouchable.

Untouchable.

Jalen? Untouchable. Mitch isaiah Hartenstein resigned, so bogey and picks who says no.

It's looking Durant ish. I would say more. Maybe you're shopping in the Durant aisle. So if you win this game, Brunson Mania goes up seven levels. This becomes a legendary Knicks series. Knicks are back. We're taping this before the end of Indiana. Milwaukee. I assume Indiana is going to get to the next round. The process is dead. I don't know what happens to him. Bead, we talk about his near quadruple double. That's one of the things that people remember about the game. Plus Brunson, Darryl morey, probably. I don't know what happens to him, but it's probably not awesome considering Harden's peaking for the Clippers right now and everything he got from that trade is basically Nick Batoom. He got, he got, you know, a wing defender for James Harden and a pick, which I support. But I'm just saying right now, this moment, if I own the Sixers, I'd be like, hey, what about when we traded that James Harden guy who was just killing Dallas the other night?

Darryl should have been forced to walk the plank into the Hudson river if they lost in five in New York.

Or at least sat with Lutrell. Spree road, who's liter with should he should have.

I think it was with LJ, right?

Yeah.

But now everything flips and we'll see again.

What do you think's going to happen?

You're.

Come on, you've seen this a million times. What do you think is going to happen? Do they spit the bit?

Here's my fear for you.

God damn it.

Sometimes in sports when you hit rock bottom, shout out to rock bottom month on the rewatchables, by the way. You did a couple when you hit rock bottom and it just seems bleak. And it just seems like the door is slammed shut on whatever era you're in, whatever season you're in. And then something like truly crazy happens. Sometimes it has a tendency to flip something. And I'm wondering, did you know? Cause I don't believe for, like, in basketball especially, it's not like baseball. Like, we've seen baseball series where somebody loses a game like this and they're just fucking shell shocked for the rest of the way and they can't come back from it. Basketball, especially the three pointers, you can come back. My fear is like, something special is now happening with Maxie. And this was the Brunson series, and now we've moved into the maxi series because you haven't really shown you can defend him. So my guess would be you'd probably put OG on him, right? I think they'd be afraid of the fouls. But he was even going back. Going by OG, I mean, there's nobody.

On the team who can keep up with him.

I'm. I'm trying to.

So are you saying that this game was our Manchester by the Sea? Like, what, which, which rock bottom month movie was this?

I think it's hardcore. I think now you're at the point where you have to dress up like a porn producer to change the momentum of it. You just got to put a wig on and a tight actor.

You got to get Devin Booker to come in and audition for the role.

Starting two guard on the gingism. But no, that's.

You might be right.

That's my fear is that sometimes this will happen where the rock bottom happens, miracle something. And then it flips. But I think that would have to. A piece of that would have to be in b, just playing better and not throwing the ball to the other team two to three times a quarter and protecting the boards, which he did a little better job today. And I thought, no, t. He was a little energized defensively. So does that continue? They put a lot of minutes on him. When are you playing again? Is it Thursday night or Friday night?

Thursday.

Yeah, Thursday night. So two nights later, he's got to play. But you've put some miles in. It's one of the most fascinating first round series we've had. I mean, you talk about, like, start to finish. The five games were all really fun to watch. I have no idea what's going to happen now? And the Knicks are both back. And the Knicks are back. We'll see which one. We'll see which one counts really, really quickly.

If, if the Knicks go to Philly and lose, and then lose in game seven in New York, do you think that that radically changes the future of what they like? Will they panic and do something that significantly alters what is clearly like one of the most beloved Knicks teams in decades? Like, this is my favorite team of the century right now, and I worry that there would be an overreaction relative to this experience.

I don't think it changes. Whatever the plan was. The plan was if we can get a superstar, we will. That was going to happen whether they made the eastern finals or not. I, I think the only thing that it might shift is maybe you're a little less precious about keeping all three Villanova guys together. Like, if defense engines is bad the whole playoffs, you know, and he's like the deal breaker in a, in a trade to get somebody awesome, maybe, maybe you don't blink in the same way on that one, but you know, when you think like, randall out. Bogdanovich, your big trade deadline, peace out. Alec Burks tragically passed away. Oh, no, he's still alive.

He's just ancestor by the sea too. Alec Burke's demise.

Yeah.

I don't know what happened to him. So I would say I don't think they would overreact to it, but the bummer would be, holy shit, we had this amazing moment. We had the next round coming where we were going to either play probably Indiana or a Milwaukee team with the banged up Giannis. And how did we squander this? And then just, you know, we, you've, you've done this with sports. I've done this with sports. These sequences where you just watch them for the rest of your life going, how the fuck? Why? Like, I'm still upset that McCain Parish didn't box out Kareem in game four of the 87 finals. I'm still upset it's 37 years later. I'm still upset about it.

In fairness, that is the NBA Finals. This is, I'm trying to keep a level head. This is obviously the first 1st round.

But it's a good, it's a good.

It'S a good reset.

You're right.

When you texted me, I texted you right back. Like, I'm immediately just flashing on the worst possible outcomes here. Like, will this be the turning point? That is just tremendously painful. So I don't know, I hope not I worry that you're right. I'm just terrified of Maxi. Terrified. I think he is just a baller.

Do you want to apologize to anything you said about Joel embitter? No.

No.

Fuck him. No.

Sean fantasy. Great to see you can hear Sean in the big picture and on the rewatchables on Monday.

Thanks, Bill.

With Fanduel, it's never too late to get in on the action this NBA playoffs because right now new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That's $150 to use on same game parlays, live bets, championship futures, exclusive markets, so much more you can also use it on. I think I might do a boost for Wednesday's game. Stay tuned for that. There's no better place to bet all the playoff action in America's number one sports book. Just go to fanduel.com B's to get started. FanDuel official sports betting part in the NBA must be 21 plus 18 plus DC president select states excluding North Carolina gambling problem. Call 100 Gambler or visit rg dash help.com first online real money wager only $10 deposit required. Bonus bets or non withdrawal expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply seat terms at sportsbook fanduel.com dot. All right, Nate Tice is here. You can read them on Yahoo. You can hear them on the athletic and on Yahoo too, as well. We've never done a pod together. We've never met until like ten minutes ago. But it's nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you as well. Thanks for, thanks for having me. Got my wolf shirt on because I feel like after someone's got represent on.

Here, you know, I forgot I didn't even, that's like a bonus thing we can talk about.

It's great. It's great. Anthony Edwards brought me to tears the other night. I might.

When did you see it with him? When did you think like this actually has a chance? This guy has a chance to maybe be the MVP of the league.

There was an mvp of the league. I would say maybe last summer. Once you kind of heard him kind of get with the international stuff and hearing how others were talking about him, I was like, yes, I knew it. I knew it. Because it's the combination of athleticism and personality. Just like what everyone's seeing right now. But like that combo, the rare athleticism and then just his personality. Right away rookie year he was doing interviews and being around sports. I was kind of like, yeah, this is, this guy's going to be different. And was I think an MVP? Maybe not, but at least, like, this guy could be maybe like a real awesome dunk contest kind of winner, you know, all star a couple of times at the very least, but it's been above and beyond even my wildest dream so far, if I'm being honest.

And you're a lifelong Timberwolves fan?

I was a Sonics fan growing up, and then they moved. So I'm a Mariners Wolves fan and golden Knights for hockey. Maybe the world's only of that trio, but that's what I mean.

How old were you when the Sonics moved?

I was in middle high school. Middle school. High school.

And that's just brutal, man.

Yeah, so that. Yeah, that one stunk. And it was right after they drafted Durant. I love Durant. And then. Yeah, it was. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it then. I couldn't do the switcheroo. They didn't. Everything. The name changed everything. So I picked up the wolves, and it was great timing, you know, it was great timing to be a Wolves fan. Well, you pick.

It's not like you jumped on the bandwagon with the Wolves. They were terrible.

No, no, never have. And I got the Mariners. I had the two longest droughts for a while, you know, for the playoffs. Like that. Like that was. I had that combo going on, so. But it's great now. We got Julio. We got Anthony Richardson or Anthony Edwards. Anthony Richardson for the Colts, too, but we got Anthony Edwards. But, yeah, things are good. Things are good. It's worth it.

Well, that Minnesota Denver series, I think Denver, I think Fanduel has them at two to one as the favorites, and I think that feels right. But I also. It might be the rare. I might want to watch a game before I even think about making a prediction. Such a hard one to figure out.

And the wolves kind of. They're one of few teams that match up well. They do. That's why I'm. I'm. I am as optimistic as you can be. Going against the Nuggets. Even though our head coach is now, like, not even showing up. He's given the thumbs up through the window, you know, because he just popped his Patel attendant, which is a nice, fun injury. That's a good one. Everybody wants. That's why.

I mean, that. That's about as painful of a knee injury as you can have, right?

It is. It has to be that. Or just, you just shatter everything. You know, you get the Livingston. Uh, like. But that, yeah, I mean, he. You could tell, too, when you get the. They got the prayer circle going on, uh, going around him. So that's what I was. I was like, okay. It wasn't a heart attack, was it? And it was like, okay. It was knee. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. But still, it's just. Yeah, not fun. At least we get to see some of the assistant coach getting in there because he's, like, one of the best interviews in the. In the NBA. So everyone gets to enjoy that.

Well, Rosello was saying on Sunday night, you see it happen with, like, college football and NFL sometimes where the coach gets wiped out. But it's a basketball, dad.

Yeah. Against the Giants on a. On a punt, uh, a guy, like, a gunner got blocked into him as he was, like, pointing and, like, yelling at something. Like, yelling at a reference or something. So he. I think he tore his MCL. I've seen Joe happen to. Joe Pa. That's another one. I'm trying to think who else I've seen it happen to. But Joe Paul would go. Yeah, Joe Paul went to the. Joe Paterno went to the booth for his. And so. Yeah. Yeah, I know. NBA is a new one. NBA is a new one.

Hey, one last Durant question. Do you. Have you ever thought about, if the Sonics never leave, how different his career would be? Yeah, I think the more I think about it, I think I mentioned this on a pod last week, but the more I think about it, I do think, like, I went and I did my book of basketball in 2009. I did the 33 biggest what ifs in the history of the league. And now if I was doing that again, I think Durant's involved in two more historical what ifs. That would be probably in the top 25. What is. What if the Sonics never leave? And then the other one would be, what if the cap spike in 2016 never happened and couldn't have jumped to the. Like, how does that play out middle of the 2010s? But him staying in Seattle? I think he's still there. I don't think he ever leaves. They win titles. I think he's the most popular Seattle athlete ever.

I mean, he'd be battling Griffey, but then. Griffey.

Griffey never won a world Series.

I know, but, yeah, I mean, you gotta look at what Seattle sports is. You got, like. Yeah, you got the Seahawks teams, but that felt like more like a collective whole, you know? And then late. You got the late seventies Sonics, then the nineties Mariners. It's kind of like, pick. No one's really growing up, I was an a Rod guy. And then, you know, he left. And then that's when my childhood stoned a rod, right? Yeah. Yeah. I had 98 Vikings field gold, miss. And then a rod leaving a year later. And my child, my childhood ended just like that. Just boom, boom.

That gives you character, though.

It did, yeah. That's.

So you have that kind of traumatic losses early on. Like, you really build character and a sense of humor. That's at least how I look at it with myself.

You enjoy it. I mean, even I had to pick a Premier League team and I went Everton because I was like, I know, I know what you guys are going through. I can do this. Yeah. So kindred spirit over here. So I felt like that was right.

Yeah, I did. For page two in the mid two thousands, I did a pick and EPL team column. This is when I thought I had time to watch EPL before my kids got older. And I ended up settling on Tottenham for the same, for the same kind of reason. I was like, oh, this seems like the right kind of fan base for me where, where I'm at. But Everton's even better. Everton's like, yeah, it's perfect.

Got some american ties to it, you know, like the Tim Howard. So it's, it's perfect. It's the second team in a big city, you know, with the Liverpool thing. It's great. But it was also one of those things where it's like, okay, never been relegated. All right, so we're cool. We're mid table. This is good. And then ever since I started supporting them, it's just been, it's been rough. It's rough. This is a, this is a recurrent theme, if you haven't noticed, with my sports fandom. Yeah, I'm gonna be a wolves fan in the mid aughts. And they're going to go to the biggest, longest playoff drought in the NBA. So this has kind of been my thing.

Unbelievable. I mean, you picked the, you picked the wolves and con isn't even the GM yet, right? You end up immediately getting one of the worst GM's in the history of professional sports.

And guess what was the first draft I invested in 0909 back to back picks. I was like, oh, yes, we got them. Everyone loved curry, even, even Flynn. I mean, once they got Rubio, I was like, yeah, okay. Like, that was one of my favorite players ever. I love Ricky Rubio.

I love the Rubio. When I still defend the pick, but then not taking courier after that. No, I never thought this way when I did my column. Cause I really was just like, I love sports. I just want to write about the stuff I care about. That was one of the rare times as that was happening, I was like, man, this is incredible for the column. Like, I can't believe they took Johnny Flynn. I just can't. I don't even know how to write about this in the right way. This is insane.

In the moment, too.

Yeah, in the moment, it was insane.

Yeah.

Made no sense. It was like, these two guys don't even make sense together. What are you guys doing?

And then we follow it up with, like, drafting, like, a 25 year old Syracuse guy over DeMarcus Cousins. When it was, like, it was, like, obvious. Obvious. And I was like, everyone knew what cousins was, even back then. It's like, you knew what you were getting, like, on court and off court, but it was like, you watch it. Encore, right? We got Kevin love and we got this. Like, are you kidding? Who's going to defend that? And it was like. It was just. Yeah. Oh, man. I don't want to rekindle this.

Well, this is good. You walk through it therapeutic. I know you made.

Years were fun. The Adelman years were fun. I would say they're. They. The knuckle push up year, that kind of hurt because of what it could have been, but, like, when they had AK 47 and love and Rubio, and they kind of had some sweet passing going on, that was like, kind of my. Like that that worked for me. And. But no, but then it was just drab again for a year. But now it's great. Now it's great. You could see these little small moves they're making. As soon as they got rid of, like, russell, I was like, okay, I like all these. These little moves are adding up. I was in favor. I'm on record of the Gobert trade with my friends. I'm on record. And I brought that text back up in that group chat, and I let that be on record. So I am in favor of it. But, uh. Yeah, but, no, it's been good.

Well, I remember at one point saying I thought that might have a chance to be the worst trade of all time. So I'm going to eat my words on that one because, uh, it's. It's worked out. But, I mean, the amazing thing about that trade, the single biggest reason I didn't like it was it's like, well, go bear's timetable and Ant's timetable are completely different. By the time Ant's going to be an all NBA guy, he'll be 25. That'll be the end of the Gobert contract. He'll be in his mid thirties and that's makes no sense. Ant became, well, yeah, I think I had him second team on NBA this year at age 22. He was three years ahead of where I ever could have imagined he was going to be. It's just inconceivable.

Yeah, I totally predict that, too. Yeah.

Are you going to take credit for that one?

No, no, absolutely not. I think for me, even when it happened was it was a zagging that I'm a fan of. Yeah. And I a big fan of that. And I think that's when, if and when we talk NFL. I have some, some talk about that, but the I think too was I'm actually become a bigger fan of bridging contracts in leagues, not just everyone on the same timeline. I kind of like the one of each kind of thing going on and like have an older guy, mid tier, middle aged guy, and then a younger guy, ideally, you know, but like, so I've the Cat ant Gobert Rudy thing. I kind of didn't mind it as much as maybe others did. This is also me from more of an NFL perspective, but I kind of keep up the NBA kind of logistics as much as I can. And that was kind of just one for me because it gives you, even without those first round picks, it still gives you options, I guess. Okay. Does cat become fodder? You know, does, you know, Rudy, like, is there a resale down the road? Is it, you know, it just gives you different types of options to work with and different types of resources to work with.

Like, you don't want to make a portfolio all out of the same thing. So I kind of, I've kind of been, I would say I'm all the way there with that thinking. Maybe this my optimistic view of it, and it's worked out. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to talk about it on your show right now, but it's a workshop. Yeah, your workshop. It's a total heat check here. But, yeah, that's kind of just a little thinking I've had kind of what sports is maybe bridging those as opposed to everyone on the same timeline.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm trying to think of other examples where that's worked. I mean, basically the Celtics were doing a version of that when they added Kyrie and Gordon Hayward with Horford, but then they had the young guys, but the problem is they had no middle between the two. So they have a version now.

Right.

They have Porzingis, Derek White and Drew. And they have Horford, but then they have the younger guys. They just don't have the younger class now of people. Yeah, Minnesota. The towns thing. The fact that Edwards has become the leader towns never realized that he needed is another, like, crazy outcome of this. I thought that interview was great in the post game. And Edwards, just like, you're fat, you're fucking fouls, they're stupid. You just got to stay in the game. You're our best offensive player. Just the way he was putting it was like, yeah, towns, this is what we've been telling you for five years.

And you got to hear from your peers sometimes and maybe like that, it's almost like he had to do it with, like, evidence. I see. I told you, like, kind of thing. Like, I'm going to show other people that I'm telling you this, but it was also, I love that. And just doing it in a way where he's, you know, he's cussing at him, but it's in such a reinforcing and positive way. And this is like, this is like all time leader stuff that we're seeing at 22 years old. And I'm willing to say that on air, it's like, on record. This is. This is special, what we're seeing. And I think all of us are realizing that. But it's any type of sport, this is what this kind of personality is. Because just to be able to do that, to point out a negative constructive criticism, but doing in his own way, it's not corny. And he's also giving detail of it. He's not like, cats, our best offensive player, blah, blah, blah. He goes, no, he's good. He's the pick and pop. He's naming all the moves that he does. And he's like, he's the lead at this.

He's the lead at this. He's lead at this. This is why they can't look at us in the third quarter. Look at what happened. He's like bringing up examples. So it's not just like, just a blanket statement. He's going, do, do, do, do. This is what you're good at, man. And he's pointing out to everybody, this is what he's good at. So, I mean, just to do that on the spot, man, it's just like, there's not a lot. There's. This is cool. This is so much fun to watch. We.

I had really good seats for a Lakers Wolves game, like three, four weeks ago and was just watching how he interacted with the teammates, just the stuff during the timeouts, what he was telling people, and it was just so clear. He was the unequivocal leader of the team. But one of the things that was interesting, there was this guy sitting courtside next to the benchmark.

Yeah.

And everybody in the team was talking to him, coming over, high fiving them, talking in timeouts. I mean, everyone like coaches, players. This guy almost was like part of the team. And me and my friend Ben were like, who is this guy? Like, is he see a famous person? And we don't, and we're just dumb. So at the end we asked him, like, who are you? How do you know? Literally everyone, that's who, elves. And he's like, oh, I grew up with anti ants, my best friend. And, you know, I go to a lot of the games and I was like, even Ant's best friend is like one of the leaders of the team. It just made like, of course, yeah, this is completely Ant's team to the point that his best friend is also.

Leading the team, even his dog, Ant junior. It's like everything. I mean, right away when he played Memphis a couple years ago in the playoffs, I would say that that series was when I was. That was it.

That was what I knew.

That was it.

Well, this leads us to football because there's not, and my dad's going to be on later in the podcast who's also a Drake may guy. There's a couple Drake may guys out there and I think we all like the same things about him. You are one of the most passionate Drake May guys, but some of the Drake may resume if you're going to, if you're going to go all in on it was this personality, leadership, charisma stuff, which I feel like is part of being a quarterback. Like, like why? How do we evaluate that you're doing all this draft stuff. How do you evaluate intangibles? How do you evaluate leadership stuff? What little pieces, what breadcrumbs are you searching for as you research these guys?

Yeah, if we're just focusing quarterbacks, it's first and foremost I want to see what they handle pre snap. And there's hints at what you can look at, especially from the college level. College offenses are, there's a lot of control from the coaches, meaning that they signal the play in, then they give a little fake signal. And then also everybody on the team looks at the sideline. The coaches go, you are running this play. So the quarterback is just a joystick for the coach. And so one little breadcrumb I look at is, do I see this guy never looking to the sideline and communicating with everybody? Do I see movement as far as him flipping somebody like a running back to one side to the other? Does it look in a calm demeanor and not a, oh, crap, I forgot to move that guy kind of thing? Is it handling all this, handling operation, giving fake counts, you know, getting guys to draw off sides, that's maturity, because that comes with time. That means you can handle this stuff after the snap, and then you can pause and think about what happens before the snap and then go, I'm going to start getting crafty.

I'm going to be able to add layers to my game. So when I see a guy like Drake May, who I thought ran a very simplistic offense at North Carolina, which is not his fault. He's just operating it.

And as he left, too, after, yeah.

Phil Lago, uh, who's with the Wisconsin now, which, uh, which is where I played at. But they went that offense to, to this one in his Richard, sophomore year, he still was given control and he was still giving advanced play. Even in a simplistic offense as much as you can, it's not gonna be NFL level. But there was some things, there's a game that North Carolina state, one of his last games of the season, everyone is considered that one of his worst games, and I think it's quite the opposite. His team couldn't stop them, so he was down 21 nothing right away in that game. But in that game, he's handling things like he changes a protect. They were just blitzing him every day. Down, they're blitzing and dropping eight. They were kind of doing the older brother like, I'm hitting you, I'm hitting you, I'm not hitting you kind of thing. And which is what Brian Forrest did with the Vikings this last year. But they were doing a college version of that. So he's already facing kind of that tough game plan on his own without a lot of help. And they get a real heavy blitz.

Look, he calmly changes the protection, gets a flips the back over, wads it all up, and then throws like an absolute dart, like going to his left. So right there I see mental side, and then I see the ability to handle this chaotic situation, to not only do that, to throw an absolute dart with athleticism, arm strength. So it's plays like that. Those are the breadcrumbs where I'm just looking at this is mental side. This is the stuff that means that he is advancing the playbook. He is calm with everything, or he can handle everything that happens after snap, and then the coaches give him stuff to work with. Coaches aren't going to do that, especially in college, that if they don't think you can handle it because they get fired. So you could just transfer or get benched, you know, but, like, they might get fired, so they're not going to do that once. They absolutely trust you. So if I'm seeing a 2020 year old guy do this in a big time conference, I'm, I'm listening. You know, I'm starting to sit up a little bit, and then, then there's the stuff after the snap that he does that, that gets me more excited.

But that's just may. But that's just overall with any type of quarterback.

So there's been some Josh Allen thrown around, some Herbert thrown around hybrid of the two of them. Like, what, what do you see when you watch him just as a quarterback? Because he's right now is six 4229, which to me means he'll be 240, right? He'll be six four and a half 240 probably by the time he's a finished product, which puts him kind of toward Roethlisberger and puts him toward Dante Culpepper and, you know, Allen and just these bigger dudes. But he's, I think, a better runner than most people that size. But what is, what, what area is he in for you in that front?

Yeah, he, so he's not as big as Allen. He's not even big as Herbert. Those guys are right. That's the thing is, like, may is big. He's good.

Six six.

Yeah, six 6240 already. You know, even Cam Newton is six five and change. Six six. We'll call him. He'd be an NBA six six and like 250. You know, those guys are the elite size. And Allen probably has an inch and a half and, you know, an inch, I would say, at the very least, and probably 15 pounds of them. And football weight matters so much that I think that's always been misconstrued is that it's, you know, so like a combat sport. So, you know, weight classes matter. So I always kind of, like, always try to emphasize weight. Like, 1015 pounds matters a lot until you get kind of to the big boys. But, but with May, I think the thing is, and you just mentioned it, is he's an excellent athlete, and I think that's been underrated about him. Like, he's a really good athlete and.

There'S even not, but not by me. I was posting his high school basketball montage clips. I don't, that doesn't mean that much, but it also doesn't not mean something when you're watching somebody basically just, you know, look like Anthony Edwards in a high school game in North Carolina.

And the fact that he's six four and he wasn't playing the post, he was right. He was face basket right out of the way. That's big. And in baseball, he's a shortstop. He wasn't first base, he wasn't pitcher, he wasn't right field. He was a shortstop. Like, which I, I always am interested in.

Do you care about the little brother piece? Does that factor into your weird race?

As much as possible? I always try first and foremost. Like when I first am talking about these guys, it's my just reviewing guys, like just film. Like film, film. And then once I start picking up the other information, they'll sway it a little bit. But I'm not going to say this is bad. That he has the fact he's from an athletic family, that that's always going to be huge. Just pedigree. That that's something everybody like. I mean, shoot, just look at any sport that's going to give you a more likely chance of hitting. But I think with that, that the fact that he's a little brother, he's been beat up on, he's tough as hell. That, and that's another thing is that he's really, really tough and competitive. And, oh, you were talking, even saying some of the tangible stuff. That same NC state game was the first time that I kind of like saw him freak out a little bit. Like kind of have a little like kind of moment, like a mad dog moment. And I kind of like it, like perked me up a little bit. Like, okay, you do have this in you.

And when I start hearing interviews that, oh, yeah, he's psycho competitive. That's, that's. Yes, because quarterbacks should all be psycho competitive. You want those guys, you guys want those guys, you want those guys to be assassins?

Even if they're nice stories, like they put a ping pong table in the weight room and take it out because Drake may never wanted to leave and it was causing problems.

And that's what everything, every story you hear, that's, that's what you hear about them. They're always just like Philip Rivers, you know, one of the most psychotic competitors of all time, Phil Rivers. I've never heard anyone compared to Philip Rivers personality wise. And he's gotten that thrown out to him several times. Clyde Christensen, who worked with North Carolina this last year. Compared to him, like, it's, I don't know, there's a lot of, I try not to read too much into it other than red flags, but it's like these are all working in his favor and this is all worked into not only just film wise, the off field stuff that I'm just like, this is something I would bet on because that's what you want. You want this guy to be absolutely psychotic because it's not always going to be easy. And day in, day out, day in, day out, he has to work. And this guy's like, yeah, I know how to work. This is easy.

So do you feel like how much of this is situation to you? Right? Like you have somebody who has a lot of the stuff that you would need to succeed as a quarterback but they could still go to the wrong team and have like the first quarterback that I ever rooted for was Jim punk it. Cause I'm old. The New England Patriots, who's number one pick in the draft. Yeah. And he just got the absolute shit kicked out of him for five, six years. Ended up they goes to 49 ers, gets released and then gets resurrected on this famous NFL story. Resurrected on the Raiders. Like, oh my God, they resurrected Jim punk it. But that was the worst situation I've ever seen a quarterback in. But I also feel like Bledsoe in the nineties was a little bit somewhere where he got the shit kicked out of him. And by the time he hit year seven, year eight, it wasn't the same mack, which I talk about with my dad later, where he just, the coaching changed every year and that was more kind of a coaching fuck up with him. I don't know if he would have made it or not, but the coach didn't help.

But can you be in a bad situation and still be good? Can talent win over anything or is there a point?

There's a point. As long there's a point, but the one year, I don't think it develops enough kind of scar tissue. But once you're getting to two and three years is when it happens. It's almost like a 30 game race. I think you have to.

You agree with that theory that by 30 games we need to know. Cause I agree with that too.

Yeah, I'm kind of. Yeah, by snap kind of thing. If by, you know, 2500, 3000 snaps like then, then I should know like.

Zach Wilson's a good example of that. Right. I don't know if he was in the right place or not. Probably not, but it never really changed.

You can see guys overcoming it, like, even, like, Trevor Lawrence's rookie year. You can see the flashes and the traits of sack mitigation, uh, like, just being able to, like, avoid. But they'll probably have a lot of bad plays, but avoiding even worse plays or putting the ball on the right spot. Good timing. So you can see kind of glimpses and, like, Zach Wilson was one of those about, like, four games. And I was kind of like, he either needs to sit a little bit or this isn't it, because he was just so skittish. Um, you never want to see the eyes going left to right. You want to see, like, maybe a glance and then it looks one way to another place. Uh, but Zach Wilson, right away it was left to right, and I was like, oh, boy. Coast to coast is never good. So that would you see just the signs of that.

But the guys that just take off the moment was trouble. And that's just their instinct is, like, to just run like they're in a horror movie.

If everything goes outside, if throws go outside and they go outside, when they don't step up to scramble, they up and out. Like, watch how much Patrick Mahomes goes up and then out. If they just go straight around and they get what we call fish hooked, where, you know, these six five, you know, DNS with, you know, 611 wingspans just reach out and grab them, yank them down. And then in college when they're playing, you know, Louisiana Monroe, like, that didn't happen because that guy's six one. So now they, they, they used to be the best athlete always. Now they used to get around that. Then technique matters more and size matters more because you have to step up into the crap, uh, like, you have to step up into the mucky stuff and finish, you know, it's just like.

Caleb was doing that. Right. Tape of him. He moves up. Absolutely. He, yeah, he's not take offer.

No, he's clean. He's cleaner than people gave him credit for. He was trying to be a good, clean pocket quarterback. He was trying to, like, show people that this year, but everyone else didn't help him out. Everyone else didn't comply. Yeah. He has more similarities to Drew Brees than people, young Drew Brees than people have given credit for. Yeah, he's pretty cool. He's. I love May. I also love Caleb. So I. Yeah, I have a couple, though, a couple guys I really like in this class.

Did you, were you from a Daniel standpoint, when it get, if it gets really hectic in Washington. Let's say their blocking is not great and he's just taken off and running around. Do you feel like there's a purpose behind that, or is it more, oh, I'm going to do this. This seems like a thing to do a little.

Oh, I'm going to do this. Uh, it seems to me he. Cause he, he will go one to two to three and progress and do that. For, for me, it seems like sometimes in the pocket he's going one and then he's setting up for his scramble. His, his eyes come down, and that is not a lack of toughness. Usually when you hear a quarterback's eyes come down, it's because they're scared, quote unquote, scared of the rush. We, we know Jane Daniels is, is not scared of the rush, is not scared to take a hit. Uh, but he is not working to throw. He is working to run. And again, when you can make that work in the NFL, like, there are ways to that. That's a good thing to be able to create and scramble, but he's not creative as a player, so he's straight line as a runner. That's why the Lamar comparisons never made sense to me. Uh, he's also very, when he throws or when he's working in the pocket, he's working, moving around the pocket and then looking to scramble, to find a scramble lane. He's not trying to throw some sidearm.

He's trying not to throw something, you know, funky, which is what you kind of have to do in the NFL now. You have to find these wonky pockets to work from wonky platforms. I would be okay with, I'd be better with it if he was a little more aggressive, he was a little bigger, and he was a little younger. But the fact that he's had so many starts, he's still at not that level is, that's why I had some red alerts with him. Even if I do like a lot of aspects of his game, there are some more concerns with him. Did the other two.

Yeah, I would have talked myself into him if he fell to three, but we, with maybe in 1820 months younger and feeling like, all right, let's, let's see what the arrows pointing up and what we can do around him. Anyway, we just went 27 minutes before, so, sorry. We got to what we were even going to talk about. So we got to take a break, and then I'm going to throw that at you. All right, so I asked you five, six days after the NFL draft, how many days, five days after the first round of the NFL draft, we've had free agency teams have their rosters. We have a general sense of who's where and who's what and who's coaching who are there undervalued teams? Because we see this every year as we hit may. There's like three teams where everybody kind of stares at them going, wait, they're better than that. Or they look at the division odds, they look at the conference odds, or they look at the win over runners, like, really? That's it? I asked you to come up with three or four teams that you're staring at going, huh? I think they're going to be a little better than that.

So what's your first team?

First one is kind of my little pet favorite this year. It's the Arizona Cardinals. They, they're at six and a half right now, which I think is about fair, but I. They're a sneaky, feisty team this year. I think they're on the Dan Campbell Lions trajectory in year two. Yeah, that just cause what they showed last year, that was a bad roster. Like, bad roster. And they overperformed like crazy because they were super well coached on both sides. So they are. And they just added a dude, a real dude. Marvin Harrison junior. They have Kyler Murray, who I think is being underrated right now. Like, he's. Kyler's the top ten quarterback. When he's clicking like that. Top eight, I would even say when he's really rolling. Uh, and then they have a dirty, like, so they. Marvin Harrison junior, Trey McBride, who is a really good tight end, already. Already has synergy with, with Kyler Murray. Their old line, Paris Johnson junior, who they drafted last year, is sick. Like, he, he's, he's really good. Uh, but also, they're, they're really well coached at O line, so that's what helps. It makes me more optimistic about him.

So just offensively, they have some fun pieces. I love their offense coordinator, drew Petzing. Defensively, they're not as good and not as talented, but they're weird. And so I think they can make it funky. They could play some battle lines, some bad quarterbacks, and FC is wide open. They're playing a fourth place schedule. So, yeah, they're, their team that I.

Think is still being a little bit.

Underrated, kind of like all the little singles and doubles. They hit free agency in the draft, too.

We did a pod. So it's five weeks ago when the over unders came out.

Okay.

And it was just, we called it blink test. It was the Malcolm Gladwell blink test of just look at the over under. What's your instant reaction? And Arizona was one of the five that seemed too low to me was over six and a half. It hasn't really moved, but they somehow went four and 13 last year and I don't even know how they did that. And it felt like they could have stolen a couple other games that have Kyler until halfway through the year. But I'm with you because the NFC is not good.

Stop.

Dallas is going to be worse.

Yep. Yeah. The whole FC east is.

The Niners are either going to be even or worse. Rams, who knows? You go to the NFC South. I don't trust any of those teams.

Right.

People are like, well, what about Atlanta? Atlanta would probably be the best bet, but I wouldn't totally trust them. Everyone's going to be down in Detroit. Minnesota. Seems like if JJ can play right away, they'll be better, but we'll see who knows? Chicago. I know people are going to get excited about them, but they are throwing a rookie quarterback out there. And then I think Philly's probably even slightly the same or slightly worse. I wouldn't say they're better. Right.

And different isn't always good, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. And losing Jason Kelsey is going to be not just, just being a awesome leader, great on the field, like all the, all the mental stuff he handles on the snap is huge. So I just, he's the quarterback point setter out there, so that, that's going to be an interesting transition, I think, for them. We, we beat around the bush on a couple of my other teams. So I was, I was hoping. Yeah, it's in my hand.

Well, I think the case, if you're going to say the case for Arizona, could they be like a 500 team or close? I think. I don't think there's any question, but I, for me, the big thing is how good can Harrison be right away? Like, can we've seen rookie receivers come in and just be awesome.

I think it's going to be good.

I'm a little scarred from Nikhil Harry, now granted, Nikhil Harris, not Marvin Harrison, but when, whenever they talk about, this guy's amazing in traffic and he can get, and I'm always like, can he, can he also just get wide open? What about that part? Does he get wide open every once in a while? He could. Yeah, he can. Okay, so we're good with him.

Oh, yeah. No, he's a, he's a. He looks like six four. You know, 210. Like he looks like he's going to be a dunker, but he's no, he's a technician. Like he, like, I think Danny Kelly actually put it best. He's like, what if Marvin Harrison Sr. Had a son that's six four? Like he, he's a fast technician that at time when he has to, he'll dunk on you and do the flashy things, but he wants to beat guys with route running. Uh, he's awesome. He know he's really, really good. So I, I think he's going to be pretty, pretty good right away.

You know what's interesting? Bella checks board, which they flash quickly when he was on that McAfee.

Yeah.

And, and, uh, and I think he had Harrison three and neighbors four and then he had Drake May 5. Cause I think he just felt like Drake May was raw. But, uh, but I was, I was surprised that he had a receiver that high and then he had two in the top four I thought was, uh, was crazy. Anyway, so Arizona, they have the fourth worst odds on fanduel to win the NFC. Giants are worse. Washington's worse, Carolina's worse. So anyway, who's your second team?

Oh, yeah, you kind of hinted at it. I actually liked what the Rams did and the fact that they, yeah, I mean, they made the playoffs last year. It's at eight and a half again. I know they're losing Aaron Donald, but that defense was kind of some of its parts. Anywhat, anyways, last year, I just think the offense is going to go supernova. I think it's going to be a really fun offense. And they, they figured something out last year. They went to a more power run game and they leaned into it. This year they said, let's just add more beef. And so that's what they did in free agency, added Jonah Jackson. They're kicking in Steve Avila, who is their guard, over into center, and he's going to be the biggest center in the league by weight. Like he's like 320 something. They drafted Blake Quorum, who's kind of like a bigger version of the back, who they have right now, Kyron Williams. So kind of help out Kyron, like, so he doesn't get worn down. Yes. I, I just think another puka naku, another kind of a layer that adds his offense. The tight end they had at Colby Parkinson's, like a kind of a nice role player where he's going to really help the run game out, too.

So I think I'm talking myself into them having a really good offensive year. So I think they could be just one of those teams that's 910 wins and I don't know if they're going to win division, but that another 910 win season where they have a really good offense with a feisty, not feisty, but just kind of bend but don't break defense, that kind of gets the job done.

Yeah. The only reason I paused on them as like, I didn't know if they're going to get better was because they lost Aaron Donald, one of the most important football players of the century. So I was like, I don't know, that probably means something, but he wasn't. He wasn't, you know, Aaron Donald, all caps, five exclamation points last year, but he was still one of the five best defensive linemen in the league.

Maybe two, maybe two exclamation points. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're not.

I just don't know what that means and I don't. It's one of those things sometimes like a transformative guy like that leaves a team and there's just this gaping hole that people are like, we knew it was going to be bad, but we didn't know like it was going to be like this.

Sometimes I need people to say this to me sometimes because I talk myself into like, well, they drafted these rookies that kind of step right up. You know, like, you're like, oh, yeah, Aaron Donald's a 101 in Madden. Not even 99 overall. He's past that. No, no, it's a good call. But he. I do think because the back end of their defense was so bad last year that as good as Aaron Donald was, he was kind of negated at times as much like, as much as he can be. But you're still awesome. You're right. He was. I think Adam as a second team, all pro, but I, I do think just that the other pieces that they add have kind of juiced up a little bit.

Well, so the case for. Cause I'm with you. And the great thing is we have three, four more months to stare at this stuff. The Rams are 7th best odds plus 1400 to win the NFC on Fanduel. To me, it's the cut piece of it. That's what I want to know. I want to read. I want to see the cut piece, the mid July piece about how he hasn't been this healthy in three years. I want to see the big August Wright Thompson feature about how he went to the sand dunes of Oxnard and just ran up and down like shooting vision quest and now his legs are. He's never, and this is it. He's ready to become, like, a first bout hall of fame receiver. Because if they have that.

Yeah, yeah.

If they. If they can get the two of them going together for two months even, we just never saw it.

I know when they had, I looked up some, like, advanced stats and they. When Kyron Williams, Cooper Cup, Pooka, Nakua and Stafford were all on the field, you know, kind of nice little on off split here, they were the best offense, like, in the last 15 years, like EPA and success rate and things like that. So when they were all on the field together, like, this offense, like I said, is going super Nova. But like you said, cooper cup hasn't been healthy lately. You might be getting, like, a new ice technique that, like, you learned from the Antarctic, like some trainer that went there.

Sounds great.

I know. That's what he does. He's that type of guy that he's going to. He's going to try and copy it as much as you can.

Well, they need them.

All right.

What's your third team?

Oh, man. This. I wanted to pander to the crowd with the Patriots here because I do think that they're going to outplay their five and a half wins.

I don't feel like this is pandering, okay. There's a lot of Patriots fans in my life who are all like, hey, our defense was really good last. That's. It really was.

That's the crux of the argument is I don't think the drop off there's going to be that big of a drop off play calling wise, you know, because of the infrastructure. They already have Mayo and the other Belichick, you know, that's already there. That's the same guys. It's not like they're going to revamp that defense so their personnel doesn't have to change. They brought everyone back. I don't like, I liked it. I liked how they did for agency. They brought back their b players, you know, rather than jettison them. Let's, hey, let's bring back these. Like the hunter Henry's, the Kendrick Bourne's, the Kyle Duggars, better than that. But the Josh uche.

Yeah.

Hey, let's bring it back. Like, then we can add it. We can add the cherries on top. And then I think, again, I think Drake May is going to be more ready to go than people realize. I love Jalen Polk. I think he's awesome. I've been comparing him to Robert woods, their second round pick. Yeah. So he's just a. Could do a lot inside, outside, does dirty work. Can win downfield a little, can win kind of all three levels. He's not like the most flashy guy. He's not going to like take a five yarder to the house, but he'll, he's going to get like, he's like an efficient player. He's like a really good three and d guy. I really like him. And then Javon Baker, who they drafted on day three, he's a downfield guy. I think he's going to have some nice synergy with May and then they kind of, they're trying with offensive line, don't know who's playing left tackle. So I will say that, but I don't know. But they're at five and a half wins. The defense has great bones on it. I don't think there's going to be that much drop off and I think.

The office Buffalo is going to be worse. Miami would be the same or worse. Giant x Factor with Rogers and who knows?

But it's.

Yeah, five and a half seems low. I'm with you.

Yeah. So that was, that was one I wanted to throw in there because I also didn't want to just do all NFC teams because the other one I had was packers, though, because I'm kind of disco stewing it. The disco stew meme. You know, just like all the way to the moon.

The packers is. You're. Because the Packers, I think a lot of people assume they're going to make the playoffs, but you're saying. I'm thinking way bigger than that.

I'm thinking maybe a final four, like a. Maybe a conference championship appearance. I think Jordan love is better than people are realizing. These are. I know we all said he's felt like he's ascended, but I think he might take another leap this year. Cause I think the offense is so young that their pass catchers are all first and second year guys and they're only going to get better. They have so many of them tight ends.

I feel like they could have won that same Fran game and then we just kind of forgot about it after the fact.

That's it.

They took sitting there for him.

They owned the Cowboys. They had him at the wine chamber. They took it to task. Yeah. So, yeah, I think the defense was some addition by subtraction with some of the defense. They kind of had some reinforcements on the back end. So I think just they're, they're really well coached. Lafour is an awesome play caller. Yeah. So I think the packers, they're nine and a half and I'm not saying that, oh, they're going to go 13 to four or anything, but more 1011 ish. But I think they're just a better team. They realize not just a playoff team, but more of a like, hey, they can make it a little bit of a run. Yeah.

If you look at the NFC odds, the Niners are plus 250. This on Fando Lions six to one, Eagles plus 650. If that's the top three, I'm not going to fight it. But Dallas is plus 650, tied for the third highest spot, and the packers are plus 850. And I just don't see any world where the packers aren't better than Dallas. Dallas, even to be as good as the packers, needs four things to go perfect for them, not to mention the DAC contract year and McCarthy, who probably should have been fired, but now isn't like this lame duck year where if they don't make the Super bowl, he is getting fired. Yeah.

Super bowl or Belichick. Yeah.

I think Green Bay should have the third best odds. I would put them ahead of Philly, too. I would have it San Fran, Detroit. Green Bay, I think would be my three. But I'm not going to argue with Philly because, you know, with it, losing those coordinators last year just seems like it murdered them and maybe they'll fix that. Maybe they're going to see more cohesive and they'll, there's things they can fix with what we watched last year.

Oh, absolutely. Dallas.

I don't know how that's fixable.

Well, it's just there even who they like, I. The plan going forward, like with what they drafted is fine, but it was just also, that doesn't help them from this year as much like, you know, they drafted some decent guys, but they did nothing. Free agency. The Dak thing's the Dak thing. The defense just has to regress because they didn't kind of reinforce it, you know, and it kind of was already regressing last year. They went from like a, they were playing like bonkers the first half of the year and then second half of the year they're playing like a top, bottom ten team. So I think people kind of forgot that. They're like, no, they're still, they still got Michael Parsons, still got DeMarcus. Laura. There's, you know, it's still got digs back there, but they got more holes. I think people realize.

I agree. There's one team I thought you might mention. You didn't yeah, there's a case for Washington if Daniels is awesome. Right where they, they had, you know, I would say a bottom three coaching situation last year. They, they fixed that. They have a new administration. They had a lot of picks. They have a quarterback. It's more like what if Daniels is awesome? I guess would be the case. He's 23. He's, he's probably the safest bet to come right in and resemble what he looked like in college. But you made, you made the point about what if his first looks not there? Does it just take off and run? He's too small. He can get hurt right away. But I, I don't know. I can't rule them out for some reason. Am I crazy?

I think they're gonna be kind of mediocre. Uh, yeah, just some of, as of right now, you know, it's just some of the, some of it doesn't come together right. You know, they got just, even the old line o line's like, fine. But they also just doesn't encourage me with what were the issues with Daniels and kind of just going, oh, we're going to put them behind a average at best. Oh, line like that. That, that's a little scary. That's kind of the scar tissue stuff.

Well, that's why their odds are terrible.

But, and then, you know, they got some interesting pieces. Like, they got, they're an, like, they've cool players like a D line. You know, they got scary Terry, a receiver. They got some, you know, they got Deron Payne at D tackle. But then they just have like, gap.

Gap.

Gap, gap. And they try to kind of shore it over. But to me, they're like a year away as a roster, so I think they're going to be fine. I'm not saying bad, but not, no.

That'S, that's the right case. I think you're right. I'm glad we talked it out. The other one that jumped out was Seattle. Just because new coach Mike McDonald, who everybody loves.

Yeah.

Foundation of some stuff in place right there. Slightly better than 500 team, and then they luck out in the draft. They get an awesome defensive player in the middle of the draft, which never, ever fucking happens. So maybe.

What?

Is there any case for them that you would make?

Yeah, they still got gno, they still got, you know, DK and Lockett. You know, they haven't traded them yet. So I, yeah, definitely. I think, I think the defense is going to improve just because the defensive play calling will improve just because I think McDonald's that good and I'm interested to watch that offense. It's the office coronary came from University of Washington, who went nuts last year. I think, you know, the old line's not great still, but, you know, they added guys. They drafted Christian Haynes in the third round who I really liked. He's a Yukon guy. They, they have some really, they have a couple interesting tackles. I really like Charles Cross, but they're, they're interesting on offense. Like they're decent, pretty good on offense and I think they upgraded off into coordinator. I'm pretty optimistic about this guy come from the University of Washington. His name is Ryan Grubb. I should, I should give a name drop. But then on defense I think they're going to improve as well. So they're not bad. They're another team that I'm more like decent plus on because of just who they have and I think they upgraded as play callers.

That feels like half the league this year. It's like maybe possibly was there a guy in the first round that you were just outraged where they landed compared to where you thought they should have been drafted?

Like good or bad. Pennix was pretty shocking for me.

Well, yeah, I know you, Pennix is the easy one. But what about the other way? What about somebody dropping, oh, dropping Grant.

Barton who went to the Bucks. But I understand it because some people just looked at him as a center only. But I just thought that guy was a fantastic player. There's some guys in the second round maybe, you know, the ad Mitchell one was maybe, but that was second round. But that's also because I, there's the rumors of the concerned stuff or concerns of the rumor rumors of off field stuff that have kind of come out there. But it's just also like, I don't know if that's anything personality versus him like playing football, but I think he landed in the perfect spot. You know, he's got Reggie Wayne as his coach. Like he's got Anthony Richardson as the quarterback is kind of, kind of. I think we'll juice him up a little bit. I, he played with kind of iffy QB situation last year, Quinn years. I kind of sometimes wouldn't run the hardest if I had five balls sailing over my head. So I think playing with a good quarterback will get the best behavior out of receivers. You know, they, they get these guys to really liven up. So if you have one of those and you get a guy that's as talented, I think, as AR is like, that is why I'm bullish on him.

I thought he would sneak into the first round. I was kind of surprised that he lasted that far into the second.

Well, I mean, part of it is I did a double take when I read this. Polk was the 10th guy drafted at receiver and he was the 37th pick. There's ten receivers in the first 37 picks. So you know, I talked about this last week. On the one hand, the draft is starting to resemble free agency in a lot of the right ways where it's like, you know what teams really value tackles and wide receivers and quarterbacks. So you get six quarterbacks in the top twelve, you get a million offensive linemen taken. You get ten receivers taken in the first 37 picks. But then the zag, which I now know that you love, it felt like the zag was some of the, some of the defense, right. Being like, all right, I, I guess we'll take the best pass rusher in the draft at number 15. Sure, we'll talk ourselves into that one because he had a neck fusion and, but I do wonder like if we're going to look back at this draft like man, the seesaw got tilted too.

Much here and it was just also the talent of this draft like that. This was a rare draft, tackle wise, offensive line wise. Yeah. And, but I think the receiver glutton, uh, sometimes does take a little bit, uh, too much precedent for some other positions. Like, but you're right though, when there's a run on these other spots, sometimes you end up with the best deer guy. That's the best corner. Like the Eagles maybe did. Um. And Quinon Mitchell, who's my number, 120 2nd. Yeah. And it's like, was it that crazy? Like I think Mitchell to me was like the mid teens kind of player. But still it's like that's the, maybe the best corner of this draft. Like a guy that's consensus. So sometimes that's what happens. The grand Barton was another one where maybe a bunch of guys that had more tackle versatility, offensive tackle, they go earlier and he's like, all right, I'll just get this all pro level guard, you know, because other, other positions get prioritized. Uh, no, but that's absolutely a thing. Uh, and I also think there's just the, there's some margins to be had when, you know, like a certain play style works for you.

Like if you just go, this guy works for us because we use them like this. Our defense coordinator does it like this, which isn't evolution, revolutionary thinking, but the teams that do that like and actually hit. And that's why I think the Rams always do well. Not have done recently where, yeah, this guy in the third round isn't, like the best player in the world, but he fits for us and he works perfect for us. Like, that is kind of where you can find some. These guys, like, outplay their draft spots a lot because they just go to those perfect situations.

That's one of the things that Pats did with May, where they're like, you know, if you watch the tape, you know what Drake may loves doing? Fucking winging it downfield.

Wing it.

Let's get at least one dude who just loves being downfield, maybe catching stuff.

That's it. Synergy of it. That. That's the Nuggets with. With how they're building up their team. Let's. Let's. Let's have joke.

It's just throw lobster guys like 6868 long. Guys who could jump.

Yeah, it makes. Synergy actually works in sports. And Jalen pokes the same way. He's supposed to be more of a safer zone beater, quarterbacks best friend kind of guy. All right, what's may struggle with? Sometimes he checks. All right. Sometimes. Sometimes he needs someone to calm him down a little bit. All right, so let's get him his, you know, Seabiscuit has had his pumpkin. You know, the mule next to, you know, the fat horse next to him. Like, that's his jam of poke. That.

That is his first few Brady years. Troy Brown.

Yes.

Then they bring in Deon branch, and those were, like, his binky blankets for the first five years. Then they trade Dion branch to the Seahawks because he wanted money. Never replaced that. All of a sudden, Welker's back. But they always. It was only a couple years where they didn't have that one guy. Cause he loved that specific type of person. Anyway, all right, I gotta talk to you about football day. Nate tice, great job with everything. I really enjoyed reading, listening, all that stuff. You do good work.

Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

All right, my dad is here. This is a pretty tumultuous, exciting, fun, supercharged time for Boston sports. So we had to bring him in. We have a quarterback. The Red Sox are somehow hanging around, the Bruins are in the process of killing the Maple Leafs, and the Celtics are hopefully going to fend off the Miami Heat. What are you most focused on right now?

Well, everything. Because I think I said to somebody, Saturday was one of the most exciting days, sports wise, in Boston. We had the NFL draft going on. We had the Red Sox winning 17 and nothing. We had the Bruins winning and we had the Celtics winning and the revolution lost to Messi, so that's fine. And the women's soccer team had a game, too. So a lot going on in Boston, but I'm most excited, obviously, about the Celtics and the Bruins. As you know, I'm a solid ruins watcher during the playoffs and they play.

Again tonight right before we. So we're taping this before the game tonight. I read a piece in the Athletic about how the maple Leafs are in complete turmoil with the Bruins going up three one. I was thinking of you because usually, usually the Bruins are on the other side of those pieces. Let's talk Celtics, though. Okay? Up three one. We've been worried for seven months about poor Zingis just stopping and then looking down at either his knee or his calf or his foot or some part of the lower part of his body. And then in the Miami series, feeling great, things are going awesome. Let's just get through this. Let's knock these guys off and get to the next round. And then there it is, Porzingis limping off and they're like, no, no, he's fine. It's not the Achilles. But he did leave the locker room in a walking boot. And the last time this happened, he was out for two weeks. It makes me nervous that he's going to be ready for the next series. He definitely will not play in game five, I'm guessing, but walk us through your reactions as that happens.

Well, as soon as I saw it happening, I remembered a conversation you and I had the last week of October about this team and our high hopes, but our concern that if Porzingis got hurt, and I was relaying to you that I went to the first game that he played, and I don't know that I've seen a tall player with such skinny legs, especially from the knee down to the foot, and it just worries you when you see him take a fall or anything going on. And sure enough, last night it didn't get reported in the paper, but he slightly twisted his ankle first. I started screaming into the tv, Joe Missoula, take him out, take him out. And of course he's oblivious, or he just thought it was minor. I don't know. A minute or two later he has a second injury because I think they were two separate injuries. And of course, you and I always get scared when it's a non contact injury, and that's what that second injury was. I keep probably ten times this afternoon, gone to the Internet trying to see if there's any update? Because they said he was getting imaging today and I have seen no updates so far.

I think we can afford to have him missed two, two and a half weeks. I'm pretty confident we're going to take Miami out tomorrow night, it looks like. I'm hoping Cleveland and Orlando go seven gives us a little more time.

I think it will, actually. I think that series is going to go seven.

So that'll, it looks like the home team keeps winning and then I still think we can win in the seven game series against either of those teams. But the Knicks, I think, are a different story without.

The Knicks just lost. The Knicks lost Bogdanovich today for the season. They've already lost Randall. Um, they're kind of running out of competent players. So, you know, this is the story of the Eastern Conference this year, though. Like, Milwaukee's going in, this game's happening, but after we tape this. But they, they have Giannis and Dame go down and Bede has been up and down from an injury standpoint, though, basically the whole second half of the year and then the playoffs, and he's playing hurt. And it felt like in the Miami, you know, who I think we would have beaten anyway? And I think Miami got a great excuse out of, out of all the injuries they had. I just don't think they would have beaten us regardless. But the Celtics were kind of due and Porzingis was the -500 candidate on fanduel to be the guy who got dinged up.

I didn't know that, but no, I was joking. Okay. If you asked me who I was worried about getting injured in a, particularly against Miami, which is such a physical team, they're shoving and pushing every time down the court, which is so why he was so ineffective in game two. I mean, they were really shoving him out past the foul line. You know, he obviously came back in game three and played better. But he worries you every time anything happens physically to him. And sure enough, I saw the picture of him walking out in the boot. The announcer, I think scalability, said, you know, as a precaution, they're always going to walk out in the boot. So I try to take that as it is. I also saw his tweet, which I think I forwarded to you, where he tweeted like ten minutes, 15 minutes after the game. You know, I'm all good. I don't know if you saw that.

Yeah.

And he was praising Derek White. That may be so. They're probably being super cautious.

That's okay.

It's unlike Denver with Jamal Murray last night where Jamal Murray, the doctors basically said, you shouldn't play. And he's like, I'm playing. And then ended up being the star of the game.

The star of the game. I stayed up and watched that game. I was hoping that game that would go at least one more game. Anyway, I hate to see LeBron go out like that, but do you really.

Hate to see LeBron go out like that? He beat us a few times.

I just would have liked to have seen him lose at home, not on the route. But you're right. I've never seen a season like this where so many. It's not just people getting injured, it's star players getting injured. It's bizarre. And then you have other players who just didn't play well, like Durant. I mean, it's hard to believe he's out of the playoffs already.

Wait, can we go back to. Can we go back to game two, which you took my daughter to, and she was all excited to see the Celtics go up 20 and Miami hit 23 threes and the Celtics were asleep. And you're texting me about Missoula and my daughter's texting me. You guys are both texting me separately. My daughter's like, what's going on? Why is this happening? It was like her first.

Shocking. I didn't know she was texting.

Yeah, it was just awful. But it was just. I just want to see this Miami team. I just want them to go away. I just want to finish the series, not have any more injuries, not have those moments where, bam. After Tatum shooting, after the whistle, just lands in his landing spot, where all of a sudden Tatum is a stretch. Just get. Let's get out of this series. Part of it's a DNA of when that. When Rondo elbow got broken or whatever the hell happened that year. And I just want to add it, series.

I do, too. And if we beat them, it's great that we played them, but neither one of us wanted to play them. They're so physical, and obviously they have a great coach. That game number two that you referenced, it reminded me of game seven last year that you and I walked out of at home and had to do a podcast afterwards. That feeling, walking out of a game that you were confident you were going to win. And of course, your daughter is getting text messages from her boyfriend who's from Miami giving her a lot of grief.

That's a tough one.

And getting text messages from the brother of the boyfriend from Miami giving her the same grief.

So how did this I don't understand how I allowed this to happen. How did we. I mean, we liked the kid, but it just had to cheat. I just came. I feel like I failed as a dad.

But she followed your ultimatum that you gave her at the age of five that she could never date somebody who loved the Lakers.

Or.

That is true.

Nobody could ever pull in the driveway with a Laker flag on his car or wearing purple.

No.

So that. So my big mistake was I said Yankees and Lakers, you could never wear a hat. You could never run for this team. You could never have any, any aspect of either of these teams in your life. But I. I should have probably covered Miami in that. Although we do like Tommy. I don't know. It's a tough one.

I think if we could just beat Miami and shut them up, I think it'll be a lot better.

Well, I wonder, like, if, if they end up getting married, could we get them to convert? Like how? You know, like when a Catholic marries a jewish person and one of them converts to the other side, like, maybe we get them to convert. I don't know.

I don't think so. I mean, they've used my tickets, and Zoe has complained that he doesn't really root for the Celtics.

Yeah, I don't think he should be allowed to use tickets anymore. Maybe that's a compromise.

Yeah.

He's never going to a game again. Believe me.

He's taunting her at the game, too. You guys, he's bad. Well, the thing about this Miami team is, because they have such a good coach, they just pick the scabs. All the scabs we can see with the Celtics team, because we watch all the games and you're going in the games and you're sitting down the bench and, uh, there's just these. When we. When things slow down, when it's too ISO bally, when we don't have enough defensive intensity coming out of the gate, when they forget, like, this team's identity is actually defense leading to the offense, not offense, taking care of the rest. Right. And Miami just, they're like, we're going to slow it down. We're just going to put Porzingis in pick and rolls over and over again. We're going to bomb a bunch of threes. We're going to be physical, we're going to do a little pseudo cheap shot shit. And yet, Boston has handily won three of the four games, so I don't even know why we're stressing out about this.

Well, you know, last night, I think we're up almost 30 at one point, but in the fourth quarter they got it down to 13 and they were on a roll. And you know who they really take out of the game consistently? Jalen Brown. Jalen Brown missed six or seven layups last night. And I think it's because the physicality under the basket. Maybe Miami's philosophy is, you know, we'll foul every time. They're not going to call it every time. And it looked like Brown got fouled quite a bit, never got called or he just missed the layup. I don't know.

He has not been good in the playoffs.

He has not been good in the.

Playoffs, although statistically it's better than eye testing. That's like, okay, but the eye test, he just seems a little.

You have to be there. He had six turnovers last night. He dribbled off his foot, threw it out of bounds.

Well, we've been saying the whole second half of the season, it's easily the best he's played as a Celtic. I mean, I voted for him for all NBA. I thought he had some dominant games, which I don't know if we would have said that before.

I agree. I just think Miami is in his mind a little bit, and maybe when we move on, it won't be that way. You know, we have no history with Cleveland. We have a little history with Orlando because they've played us well. Actually, Cleveland played as well last year, too.

Well, Cleveland had a couple. I mean, they had that Dean Wade game this year. Both of those teams have had moments against the Celtics.

Yeah, they have.

I think the Orlando series would worry me a little bit more because their defense is so good that it can. It just has the potential to just be an ugly, ugly series where it's like, you know, 89 to 86. Those type of games. They have a lot of. Especially with no poor zingas. No poor zingas. All of a sudden, there's some isoball potential with the Celts. But yesterday White was the best player in the game. And I think that's one of the things that's different from last year, is he can. He can just be the best player in the game every once in a while, which I just don't think he was capable of that. A year ago, one of the articles.

Talked about, obviously, everybody's talking about White's game, but the fact that last year you had Marcus smart as the lead guard, and White wasn't able to play this way because he wasn't getting those kind of minutes, or he wasn't controlling the ball every time.

By the way, a topic extensively covered last season on the B's podcast. We talked about this with you. We talked about Barcelo. We were, this was the biggest reason they made that trade, because he needed to have the ball in his hands.

Which certainly worked out well. It also gave more minutes. Although Pritchard and Hauser didn't have good games last night, they've had good games in this series and they play well at home. So that's another promising sign for tomorrow night.

So you seem optimistic. I feel like this is as optimistic if Porzingis comes back. Okay. Considering the shape of the east, you watch the west and certainly doesn't seem to be a super team like last year. Just a lot of good teams.

I'm optimistic if he's not out for the whole season, obviously. But, you know, anytime they talk about the calf, the calf is so near the Achilles area.

Yeah.

And, you know, we've seen other athletes where they say, no, it's just the calf. And it ends up being a little bit more.

This is why Giannis isn't playing. Cause they've been, you know, it's been three plus weeks. How, how. America wants to know how you're feeling about the guy we once called second row, Joe. Joe Missoula. How we, how we doing with him? He had new assistant coaches. It's, it seems like a more stable year. Every once in a while there's a pretty wonky game, but the reality is there's only a couple elite coaches in the league. He's at least, I feel like he's not a, I wouldn't say he's bad or mediocre. I think he's been pretty good for the most part this season. Would you agree?

Well, America must feel that way. He was fourth, voted fourth coach of the year balloting, and my ballot wasn't counted, I guess. But, you know, I think he's coached better this year. I also think he's benefited greatly by the new coaching staff. Sometimes I forget he inherited Emmy's coaching staff last year. Probably some of those guys thinking they should have been given the chance, not Joe.

Well, then sodermeyer left halfway through the year.

Yeah. And this year because, as you know, we have such a great view of the bench. I watched the assistant coaches and they have a good relationship with Joe. They especially have a good relationship with individual players. It looks like each player has a certain assistant coach that they go to. One thing that struck me today in the globe, Derek White talked at length about Joe Missoulas influence on his year, and I had not seen that before. After the game last night, he talked about what a great guy Joe has been to him, how he can always go to him for advice, how he's really supported him and built up his confidence. I guess those are things you and I aren't going to see.

Yeah.

You know, we just see some mistakes that he occasionally makes during a game, you know, less. So this year, as the year has gone on, more timeouts are being called. You know, I can quibble with should he. I wish he had taken Porzingis out earlier last night, but maybe he just.

Didn'T see it or some other games when we're texting each other. There's two minutes left, seltzer up 20, and Porzingis is still running around. Put this guy in a glass case.

Yeah, I feel a little better about him, but it's good.

A little better as a win for Joe. I almost had him in my top three for coach of the year.

It's only the first round.

Yeah.

Let me see what happens.

Yeah, well, Orlando will be a good test for Joe because that team is excellent defensively. They're going to, they're going to do some stuff and try some stuff that we're going to have to solve. And if it's just isoball and all the stuff that goes wrong and, you know, Tatum dribbling for 18 seconds and then launching a step back three, and that's the offense, I think that's going to be an issue.

It was kind of. It's a little frustrating to watch Tatum in this series. Like, even last night. Hold on. Second.

All right, this is great. The landline went off. Might have to keep that. Might have to keep that in the podium. My dad's landline went off. So we have a slow break here. If you're wondering who has a landline left. My dad.

I forget where.

Yeah.

Now you're not going to brew with that?

No. Tatum.

I thought Tatum had a terrible game last night and, you know, game one and game three, going to the basket.

Great.

Last night. Last night, for some reason, he didn't want to go near the basket. We saw that fall away jump shot. He shot poorly, I think, 516, something like that. He wasn't aggressive to the basket, and it's puzzling sometimes why he plays that way.

Yeah. When people ask me about him, I know a lot of people are watching a lot of the playoffs and seeing all these different guys with higher stakes. I just think there's a level between Sga Jokic, Luka, even somebody like Kyrie in some of these playoff games, some of the stuff harden was able to do down the stretch and where Tatum has been offensively where, yeah, sometimes he'll get hot and sometimes he'll have those games where he gets the line, but I still don't, I don't feel like he's the guy that he's going to be offensively yet. And it's weird to say that because he's been around, you know, since the 2018 playoffs and he's been all these big games and he was first team OMB this year, but I still feel like he's not a finished product. Do you agree with that or do you think he's a finished product?

No, I do agree with that, but I think some of it is his decision making. He so quickly will take the fall away three point shot instead of the middle is wide open and going, I know it's harder for basketball player to go in the middle.

Just take that 15 footer.

Yeah, or go in and take that 15 footer. But the fall away 27 foot shot, he's shooting around 25% in threes for this series. That's not good.

Well, one of the things I love about watching SGA is he just, he just gets good shots and he gets shots in the spots that he want and sometimes they're 8ft, sometimes they're 15ft, sometimes they're 17ft, sometimes it's a layup. But his shot selection is just so perfect and so good. And same thing when I watch Jokic, he's just either going to get himself a really good shot or get somebody else a really good shot. And that's. That's kind of the structure of their team. And Luca, when he's feeling it, it becomes unstoppable. And it doesn't seem like Tatum is on that level yet. And when I think about, like the finals and one of these guys being on the other team and just having a guy who's just slightly better at this stuff, and I still, it's the one piece the Celtics haven't figured out yet. What are they going to do if they're in a situation like the Lakers were last night, where you're matching baskets with Denver? Zetatim is. And neither of us really love that. The step back shit.

No, we've never liked it. I think he's doing more of it this year. He hasn't had that 40 point game. He hasn't had that 50 point game, which he's had in the playoffs. In other seasons. I know he's distributing the ball very well. He has a lot of assists and.

He'S getting rebound and bigger defensive burden and bigger rebound burden. I think they want him to be an all around guy.

I agree, but I wish he'd kind of take Derek White's shot selection, the twight you saw last night, Derek goes to the basket. I mean, he had those two dunks, two plays in a row on offense with cuts.

I mean, he actually, like, he catches defenders falling asleep and cuts to the basket, which nobody does.

You know, you and I have also talked about Tatum's ability in the post, the post area. And I know this year with Porzingis, they didn't use them in there because Porzingis was in there. Maybe that's an adjustment they're going to need to make if Porzingis doesn't play in the next couple of weeks because I think Tatum is devastating from the foul line in.

I'm so glad you brought that up because, I mean, I looked yesterday at the. I'm looking at it right now, the play by play sheet, and you can see all the dots where he took shots from. Yeah, he doesn't have a single shot at the foul line yesterday. And I'm with you because we always judge this stuff and, you know, based on what we watched, even when I was a kid and the bird Celtics. What are you doing that makes the defense react kind of the most violently? What are they that, what is the defense the most afraid of? Every time they post Tatum up at the foul line, the defense sends a second guy at him like they don't want him, they don't want him to shoot from there. And yet the Celtics never do it. Which goes back to some of our Joe Mazula stuff, like, I'm so much happier when he's at the foul line than when he's 28ft from the basket.

What also opens up wide open threes in the corner for Hauser or Pritchard? Orford.

Holiday.

Yeah, holiday is deadly in the corner, and I hope that's an adjustment they make tomorrow night without Corzingus because Horford can't play more than 30 minutes.

Well, you know, what we might see is, what we've been wondering if we'd see all year is a little small ball with Tatum at the five, him defending. Bam. I've been dying to see it. I just want to see what it looks like. And they've been very hesitant to do it.

Well, the risk is what happened last night. Tatum got two quick fouls and didn't play as much in the first half. Bam is such a good player in person. He's so intimidating. He's the kind of guy you'd love to have on your team. And he's tough to guard. He draws fouls, so it's risky to put Tatum on him. Maybe until the fourth quarter.

It's funny because he really only has one move and he just does variations of the exact same move. And everybody, every time he does it, the other team's like, oh, my God, he did that move again. I can't believe it.

It's.

I've been so impressed that that move, he's able to shoot it over seven foot three Porzingis. It's the same shot.

Same shot. I feel like they have in their back pocket putting Drew on them, and Drew has been. I just love Drew. I'm so happy they resigned him. But one of the most fun things about having Drew on your team is it's like that year we had Darrell reavis on the patsy and it was just like, this is awesome. This guy shuts down, everybody. I love it with Drew. I feel like they have in their back pocket just throwing him on, bam. In a close game and just like, you're not doing that move anymore because I'm going to stick to you like glue. But Drew in general, like in the in, and I'm sure you've seen it in some of the games in person, like his ability to jump off dudes, the way he plays, help defense. I thought some of the stuff he did in this series, even though he didn't play that well offensively, some of the stuff he was doing defensively in this series was just out of control.

Yeah, he's not playing as well. He played okay last night offensively, but he and Pritchard, once we got past game two and Joe realized maybe we have to guard people closer, he and Pritchett did a real good job on hero.

Joe realized nobody on Miami could dribble.

Yeah, well, maybe. Maybe these are professionals that can shoot when nobody's six or 7ft near them.

Yeah.

What western team are you the most afraid of?

I stayed up stupidly again, watched Denver la.

You don't have a job.

Well, I have to get up with my wife and walk the dogs at five in the morning, so.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Fair.

All right. You know, Jokic is just, he's an amazing ballplayer. He didn't even play that well last night and he still looked like his box score was tremendous. It was fun to watch Murray hurt playing so well. That team scares me to death. I don't want to play them.

Well, you know what was crazy about that game was that the Lakers literally were getting every call. I mean, the free throw advantage was 27, nine yards. Didn't shoot a free throw, which his coach made sure he pointed out after the game. He's like, yoka, he played so well. He was perfect from the free throw line. And then he did a beat because he was zero for zero from the free throw line. I just thought, there's some games where he just gets hammered and he's one of those guys you could call way more fouls, you could call some less fouls, or you could just call no fouls. And he just, he never gets calls. Um, anyway, that's afraid of Denver as well.

Yeah, that's starting five of Denver. Plus, I saw them in person this year. They're big. Every, you know, forget what comes in off the bench. They're starting five. They might be the biggest starting five in the league.

They made us look a little bit small, which was surprising.

Yeah.

All right, let's, let's, we're both afraid of Denver. We have plenty of time to talk about them in later pods. Let's get to what America really wants to know. Drake, maybe he's now in your life. Hopefully we'll take you into your nineties when you're living in the guest room.

My eighties would be fine.

Number three pick. We spent an incredible amount of time talking about it, analyzing it. Neither of us know anything about college football. We had to throw ourselves into it with the YouTube clips.

I never saw him play, but I would have been devastated if they traded down. I've not seen him play it. I like that he has all these brothers that he's close with and he has a girlfriend from the 7th grade and his coaches love him and players that play with him love him. And he just seems like a really good man. And his stats were great the year before, you know, they changed their new offensive coordinator come in. He lost his key wide receiver who got drafted. So I give him the benefit of the doubt.

So you liked all the personality stuff you read? Because that was the big takeaway after the draft when he came to Foxboro and it seemed like everybody was kind of enchanted by him. He just seems like this charismatic leader. I'm all about my team and my teammates kind of guy, which I feel like that's mostly the position.

Well, you and I talk a lot about leadership and who can walk into that huddle and lead that huddle. And we talked about the first round pick, the first pick that went to Caleb. Yeah. I'm not sure that guy can walk into every huddle the same way. Maybe Drake May is going to be able to walk into the huddle. That's my take. And that means an awful lot. You know, we saw it with Mac Jones. He wore his wore out as welcome in that huddle.

Yeah, I would say he didn't really walk into the huddle with a lot of. He didn't inspire a lot of confidence.

No. And I'm hoping, you know, neither one of us expects Drake may to start the year. That's why they have set there. I'm fine with that. You know, I'm looking that we're in a three year rebuilding model, so to speak, with the new coach and GM and da da da. I'm glad that, you know, I'm happy with who they've resigned from their own team. They've resigned the good players and I think that means a lot. We'll see what happens. But I still would, again, never having seen Drake play personally or even on tv, if they had traded down and we had taken Bo Nicks or one of these, it would have been awful.

Well, what have been interesting is because Pennix, I think, is the other one who has that leadership thing that we talk about and I don't know if his body can hold up, but he clearly has the same kind of charisma. There's something about him and accurate, like, there's a lot of things to like, but it would have been crazy if they traded back thinking, you know what? We're actually going to take Pennix at eleven and then the Falcons, out of nowhere take him at eight. The trade that made me pause, I gotta admit, was the Giants offering number six and their 2025 1st for number three, which means they would have offered more, right? That was their offer. Maybe the hats could have countered and gotten a second out of it.

So then we would have taken McCarthy. Probably right.

And I would much rather have Drake May. But when they. But when I, when I read that I did do the double take. Cause I was thinking the Giants are going to suck next year. Like, that's especially, like if they're trading up to get Drake May, who's, you know, I think it's probably a two year project. They have Daniel Jones as their QB coming off a, you know, a major injury. They're in a really hard conference and that's probably a top five pick next year. So if you like McCarthy 98% as much as Drake May, you probably make that trade and try to get other stuff. But that was the point. They love McCarthy. They love Drake May, which is kind of where I landed with the whole thing, too. It just feels like if you have a chance to get Josh Allen, you got to do it.

Yeah, well, the other thing is if they didn't even get McCarthy at six, let's say everything I'm reading says the quarterback class next year is terrible.

It is.

So where are we? I think they had to do what they did.

Well, they also, you know, they have new coach. I don't know if you knew this, but they changed their coach. They used to have Bill Belichick. Now that Gerard Mayo.

I heard Belichick was heading toward the ringer.

That'd be great. Gerard Mayo, like, big energy trying to change the atmosphere and a lot of it has been about. There was just certain atmosphere that after 20 years now it's more transparent and they're more time with media members and, you know, it's just happier and more inclusive. Who knows if that'll work. We've seen that go sideways with a bunch of our favorite teams, but you have that combined with Drake May who's like, I'm just here to take care of my linemen. If any endorsement I get, they get a cut off. And it does feel like it's going to be some at least good vibes next year and it'll be fun to watch. Maybe he'll be good and they'll have to play him immediately. You know, they're in a nice spot where they can just play Brissette and take it easy with them. But if he's kicking ass practice and he's clearly the best guy, they're going to play him.

They're saying what they should be saying. We're going to give them time and that's why we brought Brissette in. But I agree, if he's kicking ass in the training camp and then into preseason and they bring him into preseason games and suddenly our new wide receivers are getting open and da da da, and things change.

I don't know.

I haven't looked at our schedule. Whether it's tough in the beginning or tough in the end. I mean, it was tough in the end.

I think the team, the defense is going to be good. I thought our defense was good last year and who knows, maybe new coaches and they can at least be a little frisky. But at least there's some, there's some hope and there's some energy and some personality which we did not have last year was really grim and bleak.

Oh, it was terrible. But you know, nobody is sympathetic to us, of course.

No, never.

No.

You know, we had our run for 20 years and nobody cares if we never have another run except us. You know.

What's the robber craft kind of vibes in Boston after that winter?

He's not getting much press. I don't know if I. Did I mention to you that he was at game two?

Yeah, you said that. The jumbotron, he just kind of got the apathetic reaction.

Yeah, there was in past years, if he was at the game or Belichick was at the game, it'd be a pretty loud applause when they showed on the jumbo. But it was just a muted response. No booze, just kind of muted. Maybe that's what you would expect. People just, nobody knows the truth about lots of things that went on and.

It was a pretty ugly winter. But now that's the great thing about the NFL draft. All of a sudden. Drake May. Handsome guy, same girlfriend since 7th grade. Here are my brothers. I'm just here to win and make friends and be a great patriot. Seems super loyal. If he has the same girlfriend since 7th grade, I feel like he's never going to leave. He'll never be like dangling some possible free agency. He's just here, we got him.

I was reading an article about him that his offensive coordinator from his, not the past year but the year before left to go to Wisconsin and there were a lot of rumors that Drake would go with him. Drake said, no, I'm staying. Went to the coach in the athletic director said, I'm staying here. Yeah, my loyalty.

This is my team.

This is my team. And that doesn't happen much anymore with the people being able to transfer every year now. I mean, there's no loyalty anymore in college sports like there was. So that impressed me. Of course it's not going to matter unless he's a good football player. But everybody says he's a good football player.

Well, the thing is they could still fuck this up. They could throw him in too early, he could lose his confidence. We've seen a lot of talented quarterbacks where that could happen, but it seems like they're approaching this the right way. So I'm optimistic.

I have here is three years ago when I was at your house in Los Angeles and Kyle was there and the draft was going on and we were so excited that maybe Mac Jones would drop to us at 15 and yeah, no, the biggest rooter was Kyle, and he was so excited.

Kyle is the jersey still.

And so you never know what's going to happen.

But I think Mac Jones is a really good example of how this goes wrong, that the team has as much accountability. I still feel like, and there's an alternate universe where he's a good QB. Like they gave him that second year. No quarterback coach, no offensive coordinator, no weapons. And he was the. And he lost his confidence. And the guy, the guy who played in year three was a fucking shell of himself. I mean, that Germany, that touchdown pass, that was the interception in the Germany game is the worst pass in the history of the franchise.

But the guy who played in year one had confidence. Yeah, he had it had a pretty good year.

So.

Yeah, but that's the thing. That's when you have these guys, this is like an asset you have to protect. And I think I'm pro Belichick. I, you know, so as you are so happy past our lives, if you're going to ding them on anything, it's that he did not put Mac Jones in this, in a position to succeed as the quarterback. And by the way, I think Jacksonville traded for him. I don't think it's over for Mac Jones. Like, I think Zach Wilson, Trubisky, some of these guys, I don't see it. But Mac Jones, like, he. There's a world where he could be saved. It just wasn't going to happen with us.

If he gets his confidence back and gets good coaching, which he didn't get.

The last few years here, maybe it'll never come back. All right, dad. Good luck with the Bruins. Good luck. Game five. You taking my daughter to game five?

I'm taking your daughter tomorrow night to dinner in game five because I'm very saddened that she's leaving her freshman year and going home next week.

I know. We're getting her back. You're passing it back. I'm trading. Trading. I'm giving you like a six round pick. I'm getting my daughter back for three months. I can't wait. Yeah. It's your farewell playoff game on there.

Yeah. So, looking forward to a win so that she and I can walk out of there feeling differently than we did after game two.

All right, good luck. Thanks for coming on the pod.

Thank you.

Bye.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Sean Fennessy, thanks to Nate Tice. Thanks to my dad. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Ceruti. I'm going to be back here on Thursday with one last big podcast. Don't remember, don't forget and don't remember. Don't remember to forget. Don't forget that you can watch videos and clips from this podcast on YouTube.com. Bill Simmons don't forget about my profit boost token, which is on Fanduel Sportsbook 30% I will have some sort of bet idea for you on Wednesday on my Twitter feed. I will see you on this podcast on Thursday. Must be 21 plus 18 plus DC and present in select states FanDuel offering online sports wagering Kansas under agreement with Kansas Star Casino, LLC Gamble problem call 1800 Gamble or visit fando.com RGB in Colorado, DC, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia and Vermont call 100 next step or text next step to 533 42. In Arizona, 8887-8977 or visit ccpg.org. Chatton Connecticut 809 with it in Indiana, 852 4700 or visit ksgamblinghealth.com. In Kansas, 8770 stop in Louisiana, md gamblinghelp.org in Maryland, 800 gambler.net in West Virginia 805 224700 in Wyoming, hope is here.

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