You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, this is Roy Chang. The Daily Show is off this week, but don't worry, we put together some of our favorite moments from the show in case you missed them. We'll be back with brand new shows on September 10th. Until then, enjoy today's episode. Welcome back to The Daily Show. My guest tonight is a University of Michigan law school professor, former US attorney and author of the New York Times bestseller, Attack from Within: How Disinformation is Sabotaging America. Please welcome Barbara McQuade. Nice. Look at this. There's a fist on the cover coming out of the center of America. And I'm like, Is that where the attack is coming from? Is it Nebraska right there?

Yeah, no, but it is a white, right-handed fist. That's where the attack is coming from.

Well, where are we in the disinformation in America? What does that mean? What is misinformation? What is disinformation?

Yeah, well, disinformation is the deliberate use of lies to manipulate people and advance an agenda. Misinformation is its unwitting cousin. We hear something, we think it's true, but it's a lie, and we amplify the claim exponentially.

Disinformation is done on purpose. Misinformation is a family member Facebook scrolling, repeating something they saw. Exactly. From within, is this the problem in America now? Is it coming from within? As you say in the book, is the call coming from within the house?

Yeah, I think it is. I spent my career as a federal prosecutor, prosecuting national security cases. I teach a course on national security law at Michigan Law School. Historically, we have thought about information warfare and propaganda as coming from outside our borders, from hostile foreign adversaries. But now we are seeing it, I think, as a political tactic within our own country. So these attacks that we hear about Kamala Harris being a DEI hire or that she recently happened to become black. These are deliberate efforts to stoke division in society.

What are some of the other tactics? Because, man, as consumer of news and media, I should know what these are.

Yeah, absolutely. There is a list of some of the tactics in the book, but one of them is this idea of declinism. Society is going downhill. Everything's awful. Cities in ruins, American carnage.

Sound like a Trump speech right now.

These are some of the same tactics that Hitler talked about in Mein Kampf and used in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. In fact, if you look at the data, crime rates are down. The economy is up. All of the indicators are actually on the upswing. And yet, if we can talk about the society as being down, then it allows us to say, Well, these extreme times call for extreme measures. People believe these things. It allows scapegoating of other people in society and demonization of others.

One thing that really resonated to me is tribe over truth. Explain that more to me.

Yeah. So one of the things we've seen in our deeply polarized times is that people identify with their political tribe, their team. It's almost like Michigan versus Ohio State. We care about being loyal to the team.

One of those teams is legit. Well, that's true. That's Michigan.

We know.

We know what that means.

But if it all becomes just a sport-What I just said, it was a joke, but then I realized I probably just perpetuated this thing you're talking about. But loyalty to the team becomes more important than truth. That just doesn't work in a democracy. We will never resolve anything if all we care about is advancing our team, winning, dunking on our opponents. That's what politics has become, this idea that I'm going to go along with the con even if I believe that it's not true. Stop the steal. Stop the steal.

One thing that really resonated with me was, and I didn't think about it, was the use of nostalgia. Man, I'm a sucker for that. Sure. Me too. You say in here, if you've ever seen a car commercial or I like the fonts, I always find myself gravitating towards a font that reminds me of a simpler time in my life. Are authoritarian Are you seeing politicians using nostalgia this way?

Absolutely, because all of us love that, right? Okay, good. Not just me. Base, hot dogs, apple pie, right? For me, when I think about nostalgia, my childhood, I think about the happy times. It was 1968, right? War was raging in Vietnam. We had assassinations of our leaders. But in my little world, everything was wonderful. So when I see a backyard barbecue with families in their Bermuda shorts, That all makes me feel happy and warm and safe. And so, yes, utilizing nostalgia as a way to bring you in and say, We're the party that's going to make you safe because we're praying on your fear. So if we can bring you back to that idea of tradition and nostalgia, we can make you feel safe.

You talk about Trump in here, but is it just one side that's doing this? Is it everybody? Is it both sides?

I don't like the both sides when it is one. I would say that it is a tactic that can be used by anybody. That's why I really to write this book and raise awareness of these tactics so that people can see it regardless of who's pushing it. But at this moment in history, I do believe that it is the far right branch of the Republican Party that is most responsible for trafficking in lies.

What can we do in a bigger sense? And what can I do? Michael, let's start with the bigger sense. What can we do as a country?

I I think there are a number of things we can do in terms of reforms. Social media certainly is a place where lots of disinformation is spewed. We have power like we've never had before. I think there are regulations that we can take that could help stem the tide. Sometimes when I say that, I hear, You want to censor America. You hate the First Amendment. The answer is no. I'm a big advocate for the First Amendment and free speech. But I think if we look at process over content, we can find ways to have some common sense reform. For example, the algorithm algorithms that are deliberately designed to stoke outrage because that keeps us online and that sells more ads and that's more money for the platforms. I think if we could control the way our private data is taken so that we can be microtargeted, that is something that we could regulate.

I mean, disinformation is pretty profitable. No? I mean, a podcast about conspiracy theories a lot of people listen to. A podcast like mine, the Tennis Anyone podcast with Michael Costa, talks more about life and tennis. It's not really a question there, Barbara. That was just me wanting to push that. But when I... Okay, this weekend, I grabbed my I'm talking about social media. The first thing I see was trans boxer makes her opponent default. I go, holy shit, that's a crazy headline. Then I come to work on Monday and you start unpacking. It's like, that's not at all what this was. So what can we do? I think I have my head on straight. I think I can figure out a fact from fiction, but it's very deceiving. What can you do at home if you're watching with your family, if your kids are there? How can we teach them to decipher this stuff.

Yeah. This is the lie that I think is difficult to stop because of our First Amendment. People have a right to say things even that aren't true. I think one of the things we can do is improve our own media literacy. So as a country, we could teach it in schools, we could teach it to adults, to civic organizations. But there are some best practices that we can do to help us build resilience against that false claim. The reason people use that is, of course, people who want to divide us, people who traffic in disinformation, exploit an opportunity. They say, Oh, here's a chance to really stick it to the LGBTQ community. I'm going to really stoke this and get people all amped up. But there are things we can do. One is reading with a critical eye, not just the tweet that someone They usually have a handle like Patriot Girl or something like that. Probably not a real person. Probably a Russian sitting in a boiler room somewhere who just says, I hate it when men beat up on girls or something like that. Find some credible news outlets like The Daily Show.

Sure. Learn about the background. What is the basis for people saying that this is not a woman? In fact, you read that she was born a woman. She grew up a woman, she has always competed as a woman. She has never once claimed to be, tried to be in any way, fought as a man. And so these claims are really made out of hole cloth. And so I think that if we educate ourselves in that way by doing a little bit of homework. Be skeptical. Exactly. And be a critical thinker. Just don't accept at face value what you read.

Yeah, you clap. You clap, but you better do it. You better do it. You better not sit on the kitchen table tomorrow scrolling Facebook and just repeating everything you say. We better all do it. The First Amendment is this amazing special amendment that we have, that 260 years ago, the forefathers wrote down. But man, has it got us in a world of shit sometimes, Is there a way to reframe it so we think about it differently? Are you allowed to say whatever you want whenever you want? I found it so interesting when you talked in here about how America is particularly susceptible to disinformation. Explain that again to me.

Yeah, well, it is because of our cherished First Amendment rights, and I think everybody does cherish it. Whether you're on the right or the left, it is the First Amendment that allows us to speak out against our government. But I think sometimes people use that as license to say everything they want to say. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. It is also the case that, like all other amendments, like the Second Amendment and every other right we have in the Constitution, it is not unlimited. The Supreme Court has said, The Bill of Rights is not a suicide pact, and we can have reasonable limitations on things. There's a doctrine called strict scrutiny that says limitations are permissible if there's a compelling governmental reason, and the limitation is narrowly tailored to achieve that interest. For example, you can't threaten to kill somebody online. It turns out that's frowned upon. That's a crime. Good.

We got that one right. You can't commit perjury.

That's free speech, but you can't say that. You can't yell fire in a crowded daily show studio.

Don't do that. Don't try that. Yeah, don't do that.

There are some limitations, but I really think that the best response to bad speech is more speech or better speech and labeling of speech. One of the things I'm most concerned about that's coming down the pike is AI-generated this information. There's this ad going around now. Yeah. Ad going around now with Kamala Harris in her own voice saying things disparaging to herself. How do we combat that? People can create it. People create satire. But I think labeling is a way for us. More speech is the response. Labeling so people know that the ad was generated with AI or that something satire or parody, I think, is the best way to address that, because I wouldn't want to do anything that cuts back on our First Amendment rights.

When you read the book, so much of what I was reading was going, Oh, my God. Yeah, now that makes sense. Oh, yeah, that speech makes sense. Oh, yeah. So it's very helpful. I say every three to four years, Americans should have to get some media literacy license, and there's going to be some required reading. You need a license to drive, and then if you get in an accident, you might have to get your license again. So we should get a license to free speech, and I'm just spitballing here. And then if you have a speech accident, you should have to... All right. Thank you for writing this book. It's a great book. Attack From Within is available now. And check out our podcast #SistersInLaw. Barbara McQuade. Explore more shows from The Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch The Daily Show weeknights at 11:00, 10:00 Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount+.

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