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From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, In a historic decision, the Biden administration has just recommended loosening federal restrictions on marijuana that have been on the books for decades. My colleague, Zolen Kano-Yongs, walks us through why Biden is doing this now and how big an impact the proposed changes could actually have. It's Thursday, May second.

Zolen, in the US, the federal government has a legal approach to marijuana, and the states have a legal approach marijuana. It's been the states that have led the way on reform, on legalizing both medical and increasingly recreational use of marijuana. We've covered all that very closely on the show. But the federal government has basically stood still, right?

Yeah, that's right. When you look at how the federal government treats marijuana compared to the states, the federal government has been stuck in the past year. States have taken the lead on relaxing their stance, their policies towards cannabis use. And the way the federal government stays stuck in the past is essentially by classifying marijuana as a schedule one drug. The most severe category, simply. It's on the same league as heroin and LSD. The federal government, basically, when it comes to schedule one substances, is saying there's no medical benefit from these substances. It's typically with longer sentencing, strict fines as well, and also limitations on how much research you can do into these drugs.

In the federal system, a schedule one drug, of which marijuana is a member, is basically very bad, is seen as having no redeeming qualities, and using them is to be punished, period.

That's right. When it comes to the federal government, this is one of the more dangerous substances facing the nation. Then the higher the schedule you get, basically, you have more relaxed policies and a more relaxed approach by the federal government.

What have been the practical impacts of marijuana being on that schedule one list for so long?

Oh, look, I mean, for decades, there's been a real human cost to this. From the '90s to even the 2000s, you saw thousands of people that were arrested, charged, convicted for something that many states consider to be legal now. It goes beyond the criminal justice system, too. Having a federal conviction for drug use on your record can impact you even when you leave prison. I've talked to people that carry that criminal record who say that it's impacted buying property, who say that it also impacts their accessibility of banks and finances. So it has impacted Americans from the criminal justice system all the way to the real estate market as well.

Right. All despite growing social and political consensus, especially at the state level, that marijuana is just not the same as the rest of those schedule one drugs. It's not the same as LSD or heroin.

That's correct.

With all that in mind, what has the Biden administration just done in the past 48 hours to change that, as many people would see it, stuck in the past approach to marijuana in the federal legal code?

The Biden administration just took a major step in liberalizing the way the federal government treats marijuana. Look, it's been a half century now that we've had the federal government treating marijuana as one of the more dangerous drugs in this country. What just happened on Tuesday is we essentially had the Biden administration saying, It's time to get with the times. Technically, what they just did is take a step to removing marijuana from that schedule one status and say that it should maybe be placed in schedule three. So basically removing it from the group of drugs that we associate with being some of the most dangerous in this country and moving it over to a category where you're essentially saying, Hey, there actually is some medical benefit to this, similar to some of the medicines such as Tylenol codeine that you might get at a pharmacy.

What exactly would be different in the federal legal system once marijuana is reclassified from schedule one to schedule three? Obviously, it's going to mean something different, but practically, what would change?

Yeah, look, it's not like as soon as this happens, that suddenly marijuana is legalized across the country. That's not it. But this is an important step. It comes as we have seen local prosecutors, local officials moving more in the direction of decrime criminalizing marijuana. Now this is another step in that direction. The difference being it's a step from the highest office in the country, essentially saying, I want you to exercise leniency when it comes to this drug. That's a message that will be coming from the administration, from the top of the federal government, out to policymakers, prosecutors, basically saying, Hey, look, the perception is changing when it comes to the federal government.

I want to seize on one of the elements you just mentioned, which is that if prosecutors absorb this message, and in theory, so would judges, that this could pretty quickly result in reduced federal sentences around marijuana-related crimes.

That's certainly what drug reform advocates and criminal justice advocates it's hoped for when it comes to this. That's why they've been pressuring the federal government to take action like this. Look, to be clear, there has already been momentum in some cities where prosecutors are no longer imposing long sentences when it comes to crimes like But when you talk to advocates, they say, Look, a message like that coming from the president is only likely to move other prosecutors that have not taken that step yet. So, yes, they are hoping that it continues to push the momentum in relaxing the way that we punish those who use this substance.

Okay, where else would we see the impact of this?

Right. So then also in the short term, you are going to see a change in the way medical officials can actually conduct resources research into marijuana uses as well, which when I talk to drug reform advocates, say is essential if you ever hope to have widespread legalization across the country.

Just explain that.

Sure. Given that this substance has been in schedule one, There are those who have said, We need to learn more about marijuana, and you can only do that by researching it. But the problem is there are these strict requirements in a really cumbersome approval process for medical officials when it comes to studying a schedule one substance. So by removing it and moving it to schedule three, then you theoretically could learn even more about the potential side effects of marijuana, which those pushing for legalization hope will help their future argument for changing the way we treat this substance. Right.

Suddenly it becomes a lot more conceivable that a thousand people in a clinical trial would be taking marijuana when it's no longer seen by the federal government as a horrible danger.

That's right. As the same as something like heroin. It's not just limited to medical research. It could also impact the business community. I've talked to small business owners and those that own marijuana-related businesses who say that with this change, they would actually be eligible for tax credits that they previously were not eligible for because of the way the federal government classified marijuana. So there's also money to be made here. I thought it was interesting on Tuesday when we reported this news, most of actually the reactions in my inbox, Michael, were from business heads that were so excited about this, as well as I saw that our colleagues reported that stocks for marijuana-related companies were soaring after this announcement, too.

Right. So you're saying the overall impact of this reclassification change, should it happen, and it sounds like it's going to happen, but it's going to take some time, is not that this is going to change federal law around marijuana, but it will change the aura around marijuana within the federal system and the pressure to punish those who violate current federal laws around marijuana. Do I have that right?

Yeah, you do have that right. I mean, it's important to remember that the way that prosecutors impose punishments for those who use this drug, the way that our criminal justice system approaches those who use this, all of those are according to laws that in the federal government's case, it was written in 1971, and Congress needs to change those laws. Congress needs to change the laws that dictate mandatory minimums and the specific details of the sentencing that have been imposed on those who use marijuana for decades. And while this won't immediately change everything I just described, what it could do is nudge those on the Hill in Congress who do have the power to change the laws and send a direct message to them that the way the US perceives this drug, it's changing. It's changing now. And maybe our laws should also reflect that change.

Got it. In that sense, this is a bit revolutionary, this change Biden's calling for, and not all that revolutionary at the same time because it's limited in its approach. As you say, it's a very big, loud nudge. My question is, why is Biden doing this now? Why is this the approach that he's taking and perhaps not something sweepier.

I mean, why now? We're in the midst of a presidential election. Simple as that. And why this way? That's because President Biden has a very long, complicated history when it comes to criminal justice policy.

We'll be right back.

Hi, my name is Sandra E. Garcia, and I'm a reporter at the New York Times. I write for The Style Desk, where we try to understand our complicated world by keeping up with culture. We want to bring you clarity and let you know why things are trending, like with my story about knotless braids. I went to different salons in Brooklyn and Manhattan where the style is overbooked. We want to take you to the forefront of cultural shifts so that when you do see the former first lady, Michelle Obama, wearing her hair differently, you know why. And that's what we do. We add another layer to a moment in culture. Our subscribers make this coverage possible so the New York Times can continue to highlight the stories that go beyond breaking news. Help us keep a pulse on culture by subscribing at nytimes. Com/subscribe.

Zolm, before the break, you mentioned Biden's long, complicated relationship with criminal justice Justice. I want you to situate this plan for declassifying marijuana from schedule one, schedule three within that journey.

Yeah. So this dates back to Joe Biden's early days as a senator. Ms. President. Let's go back to the '90s.

We'll decide whether or not we will respond to the cries and needs of the American people who literally are living in fear of the rampant crime and drug abuse, the- Even then Senator Biden is really supporting and pushing through tough on crime policies. There are over three million heroin or cocaine addicts in the United States today, and more heroin and cocaine enters this country today than ever before.

This all came to a head in 1994, when Joe Biden very much became the face of a crime bill. And look, this legislation had a lot of elements in it. But also, experts have said it's the reason behind tough punishments and sentencing for those that committed non-violent drug crimes as well.

The average heroine addict, I might point out, commits 200 crimes a year to support his habit. 200 times a year.

A heroin addict- So while at that time, it might have been more politically advantageous to go and push something like the 94 crime bill, fast forward to Joe Biden running for President in 2020. What was once signature proud part of his legislative background has now become a political liability.

Just remind us why.

Sure. You basically, at that point, have more attention on the number of people arrested for nonviolent crimes, convicted for low-level drug crimes as well. Also at this point in the 2020 election, Michael, you do have a lot of momentum behind reforming police departments, prison reform. You have a powerful progressive flank of the Democratic Party that is pushing for systemic change in the way our criminal justice system works. Often when They asked for an example of how it's not supposed to work and what actually fueled these types of incarceration levels, while it's the legislation in Joe Biden's background that comes up.

Right, which created a major political headache for him in that 2020 presidential race.

Exactly.

Well, I have an announcement to make.

To the point where he even expressed his regret.

I haven't always been right. I know we haven't always gotten things right, but I've always tried.

While still saying there are aspects of that legislation that he is still proud of, that they did get some things wrong, particularly looking at the way that they had those mandatory minimums for drug crimes, especially.

It was a big mistake when it was made. We thought we were told by the experts that crack, you never go back. It was somehow fundamentally different. It's not different, but it's trapped an entire generation.

As So by the end of the campaign, now we've got Joe Biden trying to strike the balance, not just talking about tough on crime policies, but also talking about criminal justice reform, making also campaign promises when it comes to criminal justice reform. That ranges from reviewing the way the nation approaches certain drugs to reviewing the death penalty as well, and also promising to exercise his ability to issue clemency. So you've got these campaign promises while he's coming into office. But almost immediately, you start to see certain signs that the political momentum may be shifting away from criminal justice reform and a little bit more to pushing Democrats like Joe Biden to show once again, that tough on crime message.

Such as what?

One early example. Shortly after President Biden comes into office, it was reported that some staffers that campaign for him and looked forward to joining the administration actually were not going to be hired and that they were losing their jobs. And that's because of past marijuana use. So that was an early sign that caused some real anxiety amongst some criminal justice advocates that some of the other promises he made when it came to drug policy reform, would they drag their feet on it? What message would they send on it?

And what ended up happening on that front?

What we start to see are some small steps towards some of these commitments. I remember early in President Biden's term, he had what was advertised as this sweeping pardon announcement where he would be issuing essentially a presidential act of forgiveness for thousands of people that had been convicted for possession of marijuana, federally. It was celebrated. Criminal justice advocates are applauding him. I spent a couple of days actually digging deeper into the numbers on that announcement and reporting a bit more on it. I found that when you think of the person that's in prison serving years for a marijuana charge, that's likely going to be a state crime. Also, this initial announcement impacted possession, but not exactly selling the drug. All that to say, there are actually minimal people in federal prison for a marijuana crime that he had just issued forgiveness on.

So this ended up being a largely symbolic forgiveness rather than one that truly changed people's lives.

It was a step toward changing the perception. But when you look at the broad problem of the way that we prosecute those who use marijuana, it impacted essentially a sliver of those people.

Okay, so given this mixed record overall, when it comes to Biden as actual drug policy reformer in the White House, what's your understanding of what gets him to where we are right now to changing his mind on this very big subject of marijuana as not a schedule one drug, but a schedule three drug, arguably the biggest move he's made since taking office?

Well, I think the reality on the ground when it comes to marijuana is changing. We've had more reports that do support that there's a medical benefit to marijuana use. Also, public sentiment around this drug has changed. I saw a polling that showed that in 2013, around roughly 50% of Americans supported relaxing's laws against marijuana. That's jumped to 70% recently, too. There's more Democrats as well as Republicans that are also supporting relaxing our approach to marijuana. It's no longer just a talking point of the progressive flank of the Democratic Party, but this is actually becoming a very popular policy proposal across the country. Once again, you have Joe Biden trying to put his finger on the pulse of the country and try to basically catch up to where most Americans are at.

As you said earlier, it is a re-election year.

That's right. It's also a re-election year. I've been reporting on this now for some months. This administration is in a tough spot, specifically with young voters, Michael, and has been searching for different policy actions they can take, including at times without the help of Congress, to energize that group of young voters. Think about student loan forgiveness. I know that we've talked about that often. This is another action that the administration can at least take a step on, a nudge, to give a nod to those young voters throughout the country and energize them as we look towards this election.

Got it. So a reality of this decision is that it is designed to appeal to the young Americans who are skeptical, poll after poll shows of Joe Biden, who are enthusiastic about the legalization of marijuana, and would welcome hearing that President Biden, someone not from their generation, is starting to see this issue the way they do.

Yeah, that's right. I have to say, again, this stuff isn't easy. There's a risk even to the politics of this as well. Joe Biden, in a way, throughout his time in office, has come in proposing massive policy changes, sprawling legislation as well. At times, he struggled with this slim in Congress to actually implement those policies. Now you have a major step in this process that could energize young voters, but you also have the prospect, can they actually get it done before the election? Can you actually deliver on this proposal, or are you, once again, setting high expectations only to become a victim of those high expectations?

And yet, if we're being honest, as high as expectations may end up being around this, It's still very much in keeping with Biden's history of fairly slow moving change when it comes to criminal justice reform and drug policy. As we have talked about in this conversation a few times, this is not legalization. This is something grayer in its approach, and therefore entirely in keeping with the way Biden has this an issue his entire career.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, this is an institutionalist. This is somebody who believes in the incremental progress that can come about from working within a system. Even this process of reclassification is a good example of what we're talking about. To be clear, it's going to move slowly. This is going to involve different federal agencies seeking approval for one another to research marijuana. They're each going to do their own reviews news. The Justice Department will have hearings where people will present findings on marijuana. There will be a public comment period as well on this. As frustrating of a pace as that might be to those who are looking for big changes when it comes to drug policy in America, this is exactly the pace that Joe Biden likes. I mean, this is the pace of an institutionalist seeking to take incremental steps while working within the system with the hopes of coming to a decision that could change lives of Americans across the country. So this pace and this process, very Joe Biden.

Right. Well, given everything you've laid out about Biden, about the way he thinks about criminal justice and drug policy, I'm curious if you think there is a world where he ever uses the federal government to try to legalize marijuana, a decision that, in theory, could flow over time from what he has just initiated the changing of the classification of POD. Do you ever think that he would let that happen under his watch?

It's just so hard for me to imagine President Biden going up to the lectern and centering a speech around legal realizing marijuana. This is somebody who has been personally reluctant when it comes to these reforms around marijuana. I think what's realistic is he is going to allow these government agencies to go through a very lengthy and slow process in order to get to a decision here. But just given the Joe Biden we know, somebody who is still more likely to tout his law and order bona fides and support for the police over any massive progressive change when it comes to the criminal justice system, it's hard to believe that you are going to see him becoming the face of a decision to legalize marijuana.

Ozone, thank you very much.

We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael.

We'll be right back.

Hi, my name is Sandra E. Garcia, and I'm a reporter at the New York Times. I write for the Style Desk, where we try to understand in our complicated world by keeping up with culture. We want to take you to the forefront of cultural shifts and let you know why things are trending. Our subscribers make this coverage possible so the New York Times can continue to highlight the stories that go beyond breaking news. Help us keep a pulse on culture by subscribing at nytimes. Com/subscribe.

Here's what else you need to know today. Arizona's Republican-controlled Senate has voted to repeal a ban on nearly all abortions that was set to take effect later this summer. The ban was based on a Civil War era law that the state's Supreme Court found could be enforced now that Roe versus Wade has been overturned. The repeal, already adopted by the Arizona House, was passed with the support of every Democratic state senator and two Republicans who broke ranks with their party. Arizona's Democratic governor is now expected to sign the repeal.

Mike Johnson is not capable of that job. He has proven it over and over again.

On Wednesday, Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, a far-right Republican, said she would demand a vote next week to remove Speaker Mike Johnson from his job. The move, Green said, was punishment for Johnson's decision to rely on Democrats to pass several major pieces of recent legislation, including military aid to Ukraine, which Green strongly opposes. But her plan is all but certain to fail. House Democratic leaders who are grateful to Johnson for passing the aid to Ukraine have said they will vote to block the effort to remove him. Their support, combined with moderate House Republicans backing Johnson, would kill Green's plan before it ever reaches the House floor.

I think every member of Congress needs to take that vote and let the chips fall where they may.

During a news conference in front of the Capitol, Green said she relished the chance to force members of both parties, especially Democrats, to go on the record endorsing Johnson as speaker.

I can't wait to see Democrats go out and support a Republican speaker and have to go home to their primaries and have to run for Congress again. Having supported a Republican speaker, a Christian conservative, I think that'll play well. I'm excited about it.

Today's episode was produced by Muj Zady, Alex Stern, and Shannon Lynn. It was edited by Patricia Willens. Contains original music by Alicia Butte YouTube and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansferck of Wunderly. Of WNDYRLE. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Mabraro. See you tomorrow.