My name is Sam Anderson. I'm a staff writer for the New York Times magazine. Over the years, I've interviewed actors, artists, athletes. Recently, I've been spending time with animal people. Wait, what happens if I put my fingers in that bottom cage?

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From the New York Times, I'm Natalie intro F, and this is The Daily. Midway through one of the boosiest holiday weekends of the year, we re examine Our Love-Hate relationship with alcohol. Today, my colleague Susan Dominus, on how bad or not drinking is for you. It's Friday, July fifth. Sue, you and I are both here to discuss our relationship to alcohol, a topic that I think endlessly fascinates us because for the past several decades, we've gotten conflicting guidance on the benefits and risks of drinking. And you, Sue, you decided to finally get to the bottom of it. Thank Well, I tried.

I mean, I think a lot of people do have a lot of confusion. I know that I feel that way. My friends and I are talking about it all the time, and I was very happy to have the opportunity to actually look at it journalistically.

I'm curious what it was that made you head down this journalistic path.

About a year ago, I have a dear friend, and I kept saying to her, Hey, let's get together for a drink. How's next Tuesday? And she It was a little bit invasive. Finally, we ended up going for a walk, at which point it became clear that she was not avoiding me, but she was avoiding going for a drink. And she was somebody who didn't drink a ton. She was a once a, maybe a drink with dinner every night person. She was trying to go to zero. She was doing this because she had been hearing reports on podcasts, headlines that alcohol was much more dangerous than previously understood. She just got flicked out, to be honest, and stopped pretty much altogether.

Yeah, I saw those same headlines, some of them in our newspaper. They were hard to miss, even if you were trying to miss them.

Yeah, I think that's true. I guess I just thought, is it so bad that you need to stop drinking altogether? Is it really even that bad that you need to stop having your one drink a night if that brings you joy and relaxation at the end of a stressful workday? I just felt like it was bizarre that we didn't have an answer to that question. I realized that it was not a question I could answer just by looking at the news right now. I think some of the confusion that we have actually starts because of research that was being published in the '90s. Back then, the news was, alcohol might actually be good for you. There has been for years the belief by doctors in many countries that alcohol, in particular red wine, reduces the risk of heart disease. Now it's been all but confirmed. There was all this research that suggested that drinking red wine had a protective effect on heart health.

Right. I remember that. Yeah.

There was famously an episode of 60 Minutes. The wine has a flushing effect. It removes platelets from the artery wall. In which Morley Safer holds up a glass of red wine and says that researchers are finding that this is actually good for your health. So the answer to the riddle may lie in this inviting glass. It was news that was really convenient for people. They really wanted to hear that good news. Supposedly, drinking red wine is supposed to be good for me, and so I don't feel It's so bad if I have more than one glass. Oh, I believe that's why I drink it. I'm 61 years old. And wine sales, red wine sales in the US, apparently went up something like 40% over the course of the following year. And this is, by the way, right at the moment. I think I became a legal drinker in 1991. So for my generation, this was an incredibly influential study. I actually have a friend who told me that he worried at one point that he wasn't drinking enough red wine to get those that it was a party, and I was a little bit nervous, and I felt a little bit better with that drink in my hand.Yeah. Your plan to drink less in that moment sounds like it ran squarely up against both practical realities and social conditioning, centuries of social conditioning around how we interact with each other.Yeah. And I started to see drinking as almost something that was quite... When people reach for a drink at a party, for example, it's a sign that they are looking to connect, that they're looking to let down their guard, that they're looking to enjoy the socializing that's happening there. When people reach for a drink, that's another way of saying, I want to be in this moment with you and turn off the part of my brain that is worrying or self-conscious. And then you think, okay, but wouldn't it also be great if we could all somehow be comfortable enough in our skins to be able to have those moments to let down our guards, to be our most relaxed selves without a drink.Yeah. It's like on the one hand, seeing someone reach for a drink, it points to their vulnerability, their desire to connect in that moment. And on the other hand, should we all just be investing more in therapy maybe than drinking?It's probably better for our health, for sure.I think what's really eye-opening, Sue, about your reporting here is that it gives us an answer to this question that's been asked and unanswered for so long, that's been nagging at us. And that's, what is the price of the pleasure that alcohol gives so many of us? And do we want to pay it?Well, for one thing, I think I've come to understand that this really is a pretty personal decision that people have to make for themselves, almost on the order of how do people think about money or saving or spending. Everybody also has different tolerance for risk. For me, personally, I started out this reporting partly because I just had this general vague bad sense whenever I was reaching for a glass of wine. But now I feel, in a funny way, a little bit more in control of that choice.Thank you so much, Sue.Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on the show.We'll be right Here's what else you should know today. President Biden spoke to a group of Democratic governors on Wednesday, telling them he was staying in the race but needed to get more sleep, work fewer hours, and avoid events after 08:00 PM. The meeting with the governors was intended to reassure more than two dozen of Biden's most important allies that he's still in command of his job and capable of mounting a strong campaign against Trump. Several governors were disappointed there wasn't more discussion about whether Biden should continue in the race, even though none of them directly told Biden that he should drop out. And Britain's Labor Party won a landslide victory in the UK election on Thursday, ousting the conservative party that has been in power for the last 14 years. It was the worst defeat for the Tori Party in its nearly 200-year history. Many voters said they were fed up with the government because of a struggling economy, increasing dysfunction within the public health care system, and a rise in immigration. The new Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, has promised a fiscally prudent center-left government, In the Service of Working People. Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan and Diana Wind, with help from Alex Stern.It was edited by Michael Benoit, with help from Lisa Chou. Contains original music by Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, Cory Schreppel, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to Alice Callahan. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg of WNDYRLE. It for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittrowff. See you on Monday..

that it was a party, and I was a little bit nervous, and I felt a little bit better with that drink in my hand.

Yeah. Your plan to drink less in that moment sounds like it ran squarely up against both practical realities and social conditioning, centuries of social conditioning around how we interact with each other.

Yeah. And I started to see drinking as almost something that was quite... When people reach for a drink at a party, for example, it's a sign that they are looking to connect, that they're looking to let down their guard, that they're looking to enjoy the socializing that's happening there. When people reach for a drink, that's another way of saying, I want to be in this moment with you and turn off the part of my brain that is worrying or self-conscious. And then you think, okay, but wouldn't it also be great if we could all somehow be comfortable enough in our skins to be able to have those moments to let down our guards, to be our most relaxed selves without a drink.

Yeah. It's like on the one hand, seeing someone reach for a drink, it points to their vulnerability, their desire to connect in that moment. And on the other hand, should we all just be investing more in therapy maybe than drinking?

It's probably better for our health, for sure.

I think what's really eye-opening, Sue, about your reporting here is that it gives us an answer to this question that's been asked and unanswered for so long, that's been nagging at us. And that's, what is the price of the pleasure that alcohol gives so many of us? And do we want to pay it?

Well, for one thing, I think I've come to understand that this really is a pretty personal decision that people have to make for themselves, almost on the order of how do people think about money or saving or spending. Everybody also has different tolerance for risk. For me, personally, I started out this reporting partly because I just had this general vague bad sense whenever I was reaching for a glass of wine. But now I feel, in a funny way, a little bit more in control of that choice.

Thank you so much, Sue.

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on the show.

We'll be right Here's what else you should know today. President Biden spoke to a group of Democratic governors on Wednesday, telling them he was staying in the race but needed to get more sleep, work fewer hours, and avoid events after 08:00 PM. The meeting with the governors was intended to reassure more than two dozen of Biden's most important allies that he's still in command of his job and capable of mounting a strong campaign against Trump. Several governors were disappointed there wasn't more discussion about whether Biden should continue in the race, even though none of them directly told Biden that he should drop out. And Britain's Labor Party won a landslide victory in the UK election on Thursday, ousting the conservative party that has been in power for the last 14 years. It was the worst defeat for the Tori Party in its nearly 200-year history. Many voters said they were fed up with the government because of a struggling economy, increasing dysfunction within the public health care system, and a rise in immigration. The new Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, has promised a fiscally prudent center-left government, In the Service of Working People. Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan and Diana Wind, with help from Alex Stern.

It was edited by Michael Benoit, with help from Lisa Chou. Contains original music by Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, Cory Schreppel, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to Alice Callahan. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg of WNDYRLE. It for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittrowff. See you on Monday..