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From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily.

I'm a student here.

I'm an English major.

Please don't fail us. Don't fail us.

Over the past month, protests over the war in Gaza have rocked college campuses across the country.

Watch out.

Watch out.

We're having a long Austin's vision for the future.

You are enabling this genocide of the Palestinian people.

Now. I know that there's a lot going on in the world right now, and there are many places to express your views, including other places in the Coliseum.

But today is a day when we're celebrating our graduates.

As students graduate and go home for the summer, my daily colleagues and I talk to three of them about why they got involved, what they wanted to say, and how they ended up facing off against each other. It's Friday, May 17th.

Hello.

Hi. Is this Mustafa?

Yes. How are you all doing?

Good. This is Sabrina and Lindsay is also on the line with us. Lindsay Garrison, my colleague. Hi.

Nice to talk with you.

Nice to meet you, Lindsay. Thank you for having me. My name is Mustafa Yau. I'm 20 years old, and I study at the University of Texas at Austin. I study Civil Engineering. I'm a third year.

Moustapha, tell me where you grew up.

Got you. Yeah. I'm from Irving, Texas. My dad's from Sherman, Texas, and my mother's from Nabas, Palestine. I went to school in the United States my entire life. I was born in the United States, but I've always traveled back and forth from here to Palestine. It's a second home to me, but my roots are in the United States.

What was it like growing up in Irving, Texas?

It was fine. We grew up in a house. We were in by no means poor, but only my My dad worked.

What was his job?

Truck driver, a tanker. But we had air conditioning. The bills were paid. I had guitars. My dad buy me guitars, so I was comfortable. But I didn't really have a lot. I didn't know any Arabs. I knew very few other Arabs. My high school was mostly Hispanic and African-American. It weren't a lot of white kids, no Arabs or anything like that.

Your mom, did she speak Arabic with you?

Yeah. I speak like a broken Arabic with an accent, but we all speak Arabic.

Was it part of your identity? Was it part of how you thought of yourself?

For sure, always. Yeah, definitely a part of my culture. It's unique to be able to go spend the summer in a totally different country environment. I always love being Palestine. I love my family over there. I I always enjoy it. I always more of a community. I felt a lot more tight knit than the United States where you just don't have that close knit of a community as over there.

Do you have a memory of what that felt like?

For sure, yeah. Just waking up in the morning, going to my grandma's house. My grandmother, my grandfather had 13 kids. My mom was the ninth born. So there's people going in and of her house, and everyone was just around. It would always smell like rice and vegetables, whatever dish they were making. Lamb, kusha. Got the TV going. Every crazy show they're watching. D dramatic soap opera. Because the city's small, it's meant for walking. I just walk around and just going around, seeing the city with my cousins, just following them around, hanging out. I would go outside the start of the day, and I wouldn't come back in until I go to bed.

Was it beautiful?

Yeah, I would sit at my grandma's apartment building and look down at the city from the top of the mountain and take it in. And that is just a valley, two big mountains, and then everything in between. It's like a cereal bowl. You want to think of it like that. And then the stars are a lot clearer. The cool wind is blowing at night. It's beautiful, 60-something, 70-something degrees. I'll be in a sweater just looking down at the city, looking at the mountains, trying to notice details, trying to see where I walked that day, trying to map out the path and recognizing buildings, that thing. And then the beautiful sound of the It echoes through when you're up high. It's got that natural reverb, that natural delay, which is always cool.

Breaking news now from the occupied West Bank. This has turned into one of the debtliest days in years. Palestinian leaders say Israeli forces have killed at least nine Palestinians during an arrest raid in a flashpoint area. Israel says-Be killed during an Israeli raid of a refugee-They protested what they say is the rising wave of violent attacks by extremist Jewish settlers. And, Mustafa, noblus Is, of course, a city in the West Bank. Was there a sense of the problems between Palestinians and Israel? What was your sense of that as a kid?

Yeah, it's nature there. It goes without saying there is this enemy. I mean, that's how my family got there. My grandparents were from Yafa, which is a part of Israel now. They were forced in the Nabas. They were refugees in the Nabas. There would be conflicts, or the IDF would come in and arrest somebody or something, and it will be throwing rocks, and it'd be chaos. And I was too young to comprehend it. And then I saw an IDF raid up close, and you could go after they left. You go look at the door that they blew off with the grenade, and this big metal door mangled and twisted. And as obviously the idea of driving off people throwing rocks. Did your cousins ever talk about it?

Do you remember as a kid, grownups at the dinner table talking about it?

That's the thing. It was never like somebody was like, Hey, this is what's happening. That's just reality. It's like you don't remember learning that the sky is blue. You don't remember learning that airplanes exist. So to answer your question, no, because like I said, every single day, that's a reality for them.

Did you see Israelis? Was that part of your family's life there?

Well, yeah. Actually, it's changed a lot. Before, you just see them through the bridge. So there's Israeli soldiers at the Israeli checkpoint. They got their big machine guns and their fancy hats. But recently, when I was in high school, more and more illegal settlement It's in the West Bank, and Israel just taking over all the highway systems and travel systems there. You do see traveling city to city. The car has a yellow license plate. Then it's Israeli settlers.

Was it changing from summer to summer as you were growing up? Every summer was different?

Yeah, every summer, more settlements. Billboards of a young Jewish family, a young man, young woman holding their young Jewish baby, and something in Hebrew, advertising, This is a settlement. Call this is a settlement, call this number, encouraging Israelis to move there all across the highway. You see that more and more. I remember having a conversation. My uncle was delivering maybe chlorine. I forget what he was delivering, but we drove to Jericho. We're seeing all the billboards and the tanks driving by us and the yellow license plates and the settlements. I remember talking to him about what Israel's end goal is. What in his mind and the Palestinians' mind, what do we want? What's the ideal situation from us? Practically, what could happen? He spoke of it as if I asked him what the weather was. He explained that the cities can't expand, so they want to, again, move us out of Palestinian land into Jordan or into Egypt and to have us as refugees. But he talked about how most Palestinians want the West Bank and God, that they want that two-state solution and not be annexed by Israel like they are now. It's scary to think about because obviously, that's the other half of my family.

That's why I'm so invested in it here because it matters so much.

You go to Austin, Texas, to go to University of Texas. How was your experience on campus? I mean, were you friends with Arab students, Arab-American students?

Definitely, yeah. Palestinians and Arabs in general. I'd meet them around campus, here and there. I knew about the Palestinian Solidarity Community. I knew about Arab Student Association, but I wasn't active in it until last fall. After October seventh, there was some increased Palestinian demonization or I guess, racism, if you want to call it. There were a couple of things in West campus. Somebody, a Muslim guy, got stabbed by... It wasn't a Jewish guy, it was just a white guy. And then there was a Palestinian Saudi Committee meeting, and there were two IDF soldiers that infiltrated the campus building and harassed the people outside of the meeting.

I'm not doing anything.

Don't be violent. Just saying you are fucking terrorist.

No violence. Showing your true colors. No, no, no.

You're so good. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, We're not that.

We're not that. We're asking that you just don't go into the room. I'm not going into the room.

No, I'm not going into the room.

You know Israel? What is Palestine?

What is Palestine?

It's not even a Palestine.

You don't even know the history.

What's the government?

What's the government? Israeli army soldiers at University of Texas?

I guess former IDF soldier, grown men, right? Grown, trained military men. They come in harassing people outside telling them, We're going to do this, we're going to do that. I don't remember their words exactly. I don't remember their words exactly.

Were you there?

I was not there, no. It was the fact that I wasn't there that made me really feel the need to be more present in the community. I had a fire in my body that you should have been there. When you're in a tight knit community, you feel bigger, you feel more fulfilled. And for me to not be there made me feel small. So I participated in the protest through downtown Austin. I saw the stuff on it for social media or on social media. So I walk from campus to the capital, and then I come into the capital whatever part of the capital it was, and just see this huge crowd.

Wow.

Just a giant mass of people taking over the entire road. And then holding signs, chant people with their kids. And then you look up at the parking garages and buildings. You got people waving Palestinian flags. I've never seen anything like that in America before.

Had you ever been to a protest before?

No. And to see it, it's totally different than what you can imagine. It's like I show you a picture of the beach and you're like, Yeah, it's going to be nice. And then you go there and then you see the beach. You're not surprised it's pretty, but it still means something when you actually go see it.

That was before campus protests began, but within the Palestinian Solidarity Committee, we held more events, more teaching events.

And then a march to the tower with more chanting, and that was a few hundred people, students, all students. I remember talking to it with my Arab friends how we were surprised that it wasn't just and it wasn't just Muslims at the process. It was regular students we saw, regular white guys that could have been in a frat, or they got on their coats and their backpacks, and they don't look like they're part of any group that would have already been conscious of the situation. It was very surprising to see that. See that many people take the time out of their day for it to be that important to them. It is important to me. It's definitely meaningful.

And what did that mean to you?

It meant so much because of optimism. Optimism that I never had before. One of the reasons that I wasn't as present in the Arab community is like how I described back in Nabalus. The Israeli occupation is just reality. But to have this reaction, it felt like this cause is not hopeless.

It was like all of your life, it had just been this fact.

Exactly right. Yeah. It was hopeless before, like you're screaming at a brick wall. But now, yeah, you feel big when everybody's yelling the same thing you are.

And are they continuing to organize and plan protests? What's happening now?

Right now, so every day this week, there's been sitting, teaching, lunch, study, seeing going on on the South Tower lawn.

What's the mood like?

It's peaceful. It's nice. Sometimes you'll have the Zion has come in and the counter protest or something like that. But Generally, it's been fine. Not very much tension.

Mostafa, who are the Zionists? When you say Zionists, who are you talking about?

You mean the definition mission of a Zionist? A Zionist is someone who believes that the entire land should be the state of Israel, and it's their God-given right. And that is how the illegal occupation, legal settlements. That's how all that is justified. It's the idea of Zion. So it'll be people holding Israeli flags, and their intention there is to show their support for Israel and be Israel's voice in this situation. You can go up there and talk to them and that thing.

I would show up to the other side's protests with my Israeli flag because it was very important to me, even in the face of hate, to not be bullied or scared off campus. It was important to me as someone who felt confident and comfortable enough to do that, that I acted as a voice for my peers around me who were anxious and didn't want to be seen.

We'll be right back.

Hi, I'm Claire Tennis-Getter. I'm one of the many names you hear in the list of credits on the Daily Every Week. A big part of my job as a producer is talking to my colleagues, to New York Times reporters, to their expertise on the news. But we also want to explore the human side of the news. And so another big part of my job is talking to people about how they're experiencing what's happening in the world. That can mean walking up to people on the street, making cold calls. It's spending months making sure we represent all sides of the story. Whether it's about what shapes our political identities or how we're coping with crises, we always feel like there's something to learn from these conversations. We often hear from listeners that these types of stories are what makes the Daily Special, and we want to keep bringing them to you. We can't do that without subscriber support. If you haven't subscribed to the New York Times, you can do that at nytimes. Com/subscribe. And thanks.

I consider myself as proud as Zionist as can be. And what that means very simply, is that I believe in the Jewish people's right to a state in their historic homeland. And that's something people misunderstand about Jews, is that we're not just a religion. We are a people, and we've always considered ourselves to be a people. The first covenant is with Abraham, I'll make you a great nation.

My colleague, Daily producer, Jessica Cheung, talked to Alicia Baker, a sophomore at Columbia University.

I'm studying Middle East history and Arabic language. I also studied Hebrew my whole life, and I feel like as somebody who's studying the Middle East wants to, for my life, participate in Middle East diplomacy and conversations about the future of the Middle East, it was necessary for me to both learn the history from new perspective and learn Arabic language.

Where did you grow up?

I grew up in Brooklyn, Massachusetts, right outside Boston. When I went to Jewish day school my entire life. Growing up in Brooklyn was probably the best thing that could have happened to me. I grew up in an observant, modern, Orthodox Jewish community, but I went to pluralistic Jewish day school, which meant that at school I was around Jews with all sorts of different backgrounds and different ways of practicing their religion. So barmitschva season was very fun for me because one week I was in an Orthodox synagogue, and the next week, I was in a reform synagogue where they were playing guitar and drums. That was very good for my Jewish religious literacy.

Can you tell me a story from childhood about something that maybe happened to you that first got you to understand what it is to be a Jewish person?

Yeah, that's such a good question. I have never been asked that question. There was one year, I can't remember exactly I don't know what year, but in middle school. Every year, we have a fast day. It's to think from Yom Kippur because Yom Kippur is about repentance, and it's also a fast day. But Kishabhav is really a fast day of morning, and it's a sad day. It's like the saddest day of the year. One of the things you're not allowed to do is watch a comedy or do things for pleasure. Can't watch The Office on Kishabhav as much as I love The Office. So when I was younger, what that meant was watching movies about the Holocaust. And I remember in like, sixth grade, probably, I watched for the first time, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas.

I'm Bruno. Schmo.

Sorry?

I'm Schmo.

Schmo?

No one's called Schmo.

What happens is there's a Jewish boy in the Striped Pajamas who's in one of the death camps, and a German general, a Nazi, who lives near the death camps. And his son is the same age as the Jewish boy, and they develop this thing, this secret friendship or whatever. Are you not allowed out?

Why? What have you done?

I'm a Jew.

And in the end, the Jewish boy sneaks the German boy into the camp, and they end up in line for, quote, unquote, the shower. No, it's just the shower. The shower. And the German boy, they go in, so they go to the gas chamber. And the German general tries to get in time to stop it and doesn't get there in time. And I was just bawling. At the end, when you see his face through the window, the tiny little window of the gas chamber, and the German kid, who, by the way, tragically dies as well because he follows his Jewish friend because he didn't understand the difference because he just saw him as a human being. And my God, did that stick with me and still has stuck me in terms of just understanding how brutal and inhumane the Holocaust was.

Well, certainly you grew up in an observant family, but did you grow up in a political family at all? Did your parents ever talk to you about the state of Israel or Palestine? And did that ever come up?

Definitely. I went in 10th grade and 11th grade. I was like, All right, I need to know about this conflict more than I already do. I was like, I know my narrative, and I know my people's history, and I would love to know their narrative. I read Edward Said, The Question of Palestine and Orientalism. I read Rachid Khalidi's 100 Years War on Palestine. I read Rachid Khalidi's Palestinian Identity. I also read Dershowitz's book called The Case for Israel, and Yosef Klein Halevi's Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor, Daniel Gordas's Israel. Foundational text on both sides of this. I would come to the dinner table and be like, All right, well, what the heck happened in 1948? Who What fault was it that many Palestinians had to leave? At the end of the day, it is definitely clear that it's complicated. I came to Columbia in in search of an academically serious environment with peers from different backgrounds who, because of our different backgrounds, we might learn so much from each other. But what I'm feeling right now is some of these people don't believe that I have a right to be at that table.

I want to get to the protest and what's been happening on campus, but just to reel it back a little bit. What happened in the days after October seventh?

Mourning. It was a time for morning and for being with our community. Then on October 12th, We found out that students for... By the way, Students for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voice for Peace, the token Jews who support anti-Semitic and violent rhetoric, they were planning an all-out for Palestine rally on October 12th. Wait a second. What the hell are you talking about? You're planning a rally on October 12th. We were literally still bagging bodies in the South, Israelis, who were massacred. Free Palestine. Free, free Palestine.

Free, free Palestine.

To me, that was the most inhumane, unsensitive, really just morally reprehensible thing that I had ever seen in my entire life, and it really, really pissed me off. From the river to the sea. From the river to the sea.

Palestine will be free. Palestine will be free.

And as a Jewish community, there was a conversation. What do we do about this? Everyone, we're going to ask everyone to gather in a circle so that we can sing together in a sign of Jewish unity and so that we can stand strong in front of the people who want to tear us down. They'll never tear us down. Come on. And we did 22 minutes of silence, which at that time was one second for each of the around 1,300 victims. And then got into a big circle and just sang songs of peace and unity and perseverance. It was really a moment for community, and it was also so disheartening to see our peers celebrating October seventh. That That was a wake-up call to the fact that we have some real problems. But also I would try and talk to people, and then sometimes the leaders would be like, You're not allowed to talk to these guys with the Israeli flags. Once in a while, I'd be able to talk to somebody, and I was lucky enough that there was one person who was actually Palestinian and friendly enough to speak with me. And then we got to talking and ended up getting coffee.

We spoke a lot about narrative and the importance of narrative to history. I would stress the importance of the Jewish story and be open to hearing, obviously, the Palestinian side. When the protests on Columbia's campus started, we were already hearing, Globalize the Inti Fada, from New York to Gaza. And this movement on campus continues to scream, Inti Fada Revolution, and there is only one solution, Inti Fada Revolution. Now, as somebody who knows the Jewish story and the Israeli story, I know what inti Fata is. It means violence against Jews. The second inti Fata happened between 2000 and 2005. Over a thousand Jews were killed, thousands were injured. It was basically a series of bus bombings, suicide bombings, stabbing, shootings perpetrated, perpetuated by Palestinian terrorists. That's what I hear when I hear intifada. It is a call for violence against Jews everywhere, very, very simply. I raised that concern, and I said, Please shut it down because this is a threat against Jews, and it's going to normalize violence against Jews. I was told, No, the Arabic root of intifada is nafada, which means shaking things up. I said, Well, you can't use etymological roots to reverse what the meaning has become.

I was told, Well, we're not calling for violence. I would say, Well, what are you calling for? There was never a concrete answer. We've had this conversation probably 10 times over lunch in passing. We're not going to agree. It is a call for violence against Jews. There is no way that any other minority could get his claims of discrimination denied by the use of an etymological root. Everyone who has to go through DEI training is taught that a microaggression is something that you say, but you didn't mean to be racist, but maybe might come off as offensive. We're taught that the impact of your words matters more than your intent when you say it. Now I'm saying, Well, here's the impact of your words on me. Here's how I experience them as a Jew, as a minority. I'm being told, No, the intent of the speaker matters more than the impact on you. What double standard is that?

You mentioned earlier this phrase token Jew. Who are the token Jews?

To me, I think it's really sad. There are some Jewish people who identify, I guess, as Jewish, but reject the existence of the State of Israel. What's happening is that they're saying, Oh, I'm Jewish and I'm anti-Zionist, so therefore, anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism, or, Therefore, this movement can't be because I'm a part of it. That is textbook tokenization. Who are they? I don't know who they are. I don't know who they are, but I do know that they do not know the Jewish story. They just don't know it. They are signing statements and leading protests that are celebrating the murder of Israelis and of Jews. How in good conscience as a Jew could you possibly do that?

Have you ever been called that token Jew?

Oh, my God. I have been called a self-hating Jew. I've been told I want the extermination of Jewish people. I have not been directly called a token Jew, but I have definitely seen things online that insinuate that myself and other Jewish people in this movement are. It hurts. I know it's not true. I know that it is not an accurate portrayal of me or my feelings, but that it is an accurate portrayal of other people's fear and desire for safety. I also want my people to be safe, but my desire for safety is not built on the idea that it has to come at someone else's expense. My name is Jasmine Jolly. I'm 25. I'm a student at Cal Poly Humboldt. I'm a student of the Child Development Department, and I am at home in Arcada, California. I grew up in Sanoma County. I'm of Ashkanazi descent on my mom's side. My dad's a high school teacher, and my mom ran a daycare for years, and my parents were both activists. They took us to anti-war protests. When Bush attacked Iraq, they had us at protests, and my mom made us all shirts. I think mine said, War is bad for toddlers.

My sister said, War is bad for babies. Her said, War is bad for moms. My dad said, War is bad for dads.

What about your faith? Did they practice Judaism? Were your parents more culturally Jewish?

My dad was raised Catholic, but I was raised really proudly culturally Jewish. So we always had really big family satirs, big Hanukah parties. We celebrated Rosh Hashana together. I'm really openly Jewish, and I talk about it a lot. I talk about the values through my understanding of Jewish tradition. And just historically, for me, holding on to that title of Jewish and being able to pass it onto my children one day is really, really important. So, yeah, I'm raising Jewish babies one day for sure. But I've been in a lot of spaces where I didn't feel Jewish enough. And I've also been told a lot throughout my life that I don't look Jewish. I look like the Irish, English, Scottish side of my family. So, yeah, I don't, in a lot of ways, fit Jewish stereotypes, and I've never been targeted because of it. And that, at least, is, I'm sure, partially because of how I look. And then two, three years ago, I had been giving a lot of consideration to the idea of birthright. Birthright trip is a free trip that anyone who can prove Jewish ancestry given to Israel. It's seen as a birthright of Jewish people.

And then in my mid-late teenage years, I had read about people walking off of their birthright trip in protest, and that sparked a bit of a deeper dive beyond the, honestly, very little that I knew about the country previously. And I started reading about that, and I started reading about settler violence in the West Bank, and I looked at historical maps and historical treaties, and I was like, There's things here that I wasn't told, that people didn't tell me.

What?

About settler violence and this pretty continuous push from Israeli people onto Palestinian land and then expulsion of Palestinians from their land. But that was a really big turning point for me.

So you never went on the birthright trip?

No, and I won't. And then mid-October, right around that time, there were the campus dialogs on race. And for a class, we were assigned to go to two of these and to write about our experience there. So one I went to was given by a Palestinian student on, I think they called it like, like resistance, embroidery. And at that point, I was watching Israel's retaliation.

Now, more than 12,700 Palestinians have been killed.

I watched the numbers of the dead go up, and I watched family lines being wiped out, people being pushed out of their homes.

Families are burying their dead in mass with little time.

I've seen hundreds and hundreds of images of dead children and dead families and bodies and mass graves.

Gaza becoming a graveyard for children, the UN chief says.

And all I could see in that was this parallel to how my family was treated in Eastern Europe. And that was when this severity sunk in. I come from a people who are historically expelled, and I felt like I was watching Israel do what was done to my family. And And that was the end of any way I could support that country for me. I felt like I was watching them enact to vengeance out of fear. And I know exactly where that fear of exile and extermination comes from in Jewish people, because I feel it for my family when they had to leave Eastern Europe or for the few who went to Western Europe instead of the US when they had to leave France and when they died. The lesson I learned, I feel like from My history is that I have a voice that is powerful. I feel like my Jewish family, especially, teaches me to ask questions, and that is what I am trying to do. So I thought that if there was any way that my voice could influence an end to violence, I would try to make it loud. So we had a couple of vigils for people who have died in Grand'Raz, where we read testimonies of their stories or some of their words.

That was when I got more involved with Humble for Palestine up here. And Eventually, we shifted to being at the Yureka Courthouse on Fridays, and we have been there every Friday ever since.

What was your sign that you made?

Mine said, In honor of my Jewish ancestors, I stand with this time.

Jasmine, during these protests, I wanted to ask you if you ever felt hostility toward you because of your Jewishness.

No, nothing that has ever made me feel excluded. I'm sure you've seen some of these comparisons of Nazis and IDF or people compare Netanyahu to Hitler. And once we had a person show up to one of our regular protests with an Israeli flag, but instead of the Star of David, it had a swastika on it. And that I was immediately uncomfortable with. I will not stand with a swastika. I will not stand next to a swastika. I will not stand in the same group as a swastika. I adamantly refuse. I cannot do that. I will not stand here with any Nazi symbolism. This is going to bring more violence and vitral aimed in our direction. We already get coffee cups thrown at us. We already get spit at and yelled at. And in order to keep the people that we are inviting to these protests safe, we knew that that was not the time and place for it.

There's this chant, Intifada Revolution is the only solution. What does that mean to you?

So intifada has come to represent uprising, but it means literally to shake off. It is a word that has been used to label a number of violent uprisings of different Palestinian groups against Israeli occupation. Does that seem like a fair, actual official definition of it to you?

Yeah. I wanted to ask you if you yourself had chanted intifada revolution in the course of the protests?

Yeah, I have.

What did that feel like?

It definitely... The first time I heard it, I was uncomfortable.

Why?

Whoa, this is a call for violence. I don't like that. But then I thought about the word. I read multiple definitions. I read Jewish takes on the word. I read Muslim takes on the word. I read Miriam Webster. I realized the similarity in that call of there is only one solution, Inti Fata Revolution. I realized the similarity to, If we don't get no justice, they don't get no peace. No justice, no peace. When people are occupied, resistance is justified. Yes, it is still a word that means these specific actions that were taken against Israel, and a lot of them harmed civilians, and that is sad. But it is also a word that inspires people. It is also a word that makes people feel like they might be capable of change. I will use it thoughtfully.

What do you mean by thoughtfully?

In where I time it with other chance.

What do you mean?

I have a list, and they are all classified by genre. We have the financial ones, and we have the Arabic chants, and we have the chants talking about people who have died and how we are all interconnected, and we have the chants about occupation being a crime. I tried to put it with the no justice, no peace ones.

Were there any other times where you felt tested by protesters? You felt perhaps different from them, again, because of your Jewishness?

No. I feel like I feel there's people who feel like Zionism is Judaism, or that to be Jewish, you must be Zionist. But there's nothing that has come across to me as anti-Semitic. If you are able to pause and remember that Israel is not Jewish people and Zionism is not Jewish people.

What about from Jewish friends, do they question what you're doing? Do you ever feel some people looking slightly askance at you?

Yeah. I think my Auntie made a comment once. If you're Jewish right now, you have to support Israel. I have definitely felt nervous about expressing some of my views in front of family. My grandfather and I, this was a couple of months ago now, we were exchanging 1,500, 2,000-word emails asking each other questions about our opinions. He was a history professor. This is my Jewish grandfather. He was raised labor Zionist, so I was asking about how he was raised and the ideologies that he was raised with. But he made a really good point. If you have the time, I would like to try to find this line that he said and read it to you.

Oh, please.

Here it is. He said, You have grown up in an era in which the deeper Israeli history is not part of your DNA. Jews have plenty of place in the world. Israel is an increasingly Apartheid state. Most importantly, the existence of Israel has never really been under threat, nor have the most fundamental conditions of existence been an issue for Jews. Those things are not a part of your worldview as they are mine and my generation, and to a lesser extent, your parents. I do not imagine you can fathom the importance of Israel in the hearts of people of my generation, nor should you. I would not ask it. That would be an unfair burden. That said, here are the things which I believe we might both agree on, or at least, very least, productively argue about.

What did you think really of that point that your grandfather made? How did it strike you? Did you feel like he was right that you didn't understand why Israel would be a safe haven for people of his generation?

I think his point is that I can theoretically understand, but I cannot emotionally. I theoretically understand why Israel was created, why this idea of a Jewish state was considered a good idea for the safety of Jewish people right after a genocide. But emotionally, like he said, I have been safe. I have not been afraid for Jewish people of safety the way that I think people in other generations may have. So that comment, I do not imagine you could fathom the importance of Israel in the hearts of people of my generation, nor should you. I would not ask it. It would be an unfair burden. Really just hit my heart in a nice way in this, his understanding that I will have my own perspective and he will have his own that lead us both towards the place of understanding each other better.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. On Thursday, the Supreme Court rejected a challenge to the way that the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is funded, a decision that protects the agency from Conservatives seeking to undermine it. In a 7:2 ruling, the justice has found that the way that Congress chose to finance the Bureau is constitutional. Had the court ruled otherwise, it may have cast doubt on every regulation and action taken by the Watchdog Agency since it was created 13 years ago under former President Barack Obama. And during a second day of cross-examination, lawyers for Donald Trump sought to portray his former fixer, Michael Cohen, as a serial liar who constantly changes his story. Their goal was to undermine the credibility of Cohen's testimony so far, which is central to the prosecution's case in the Hush Money trial. In particular, defense lawyers seized on Cohen's claim in a different court case that he had lied under oath. Their suggestion is that Cohen might be willing to lie under oath, again during this trial. Also, a reminder to catch the interview tomorrow, right here where you get the Daily. This week on the show, David Markezi talks with scientist, Iyana Elizabeth Johnson, about why she thinks we can't give in to climate doom, even if we feel it.

We went from, Okay, climate change. Is this really happening? To, How serious is this?

To, Oh, God, it's so bad.

Let's just give up. And skipped this middle step of all hands on deck.

Today's episode was reported and produced by Lindsay Garrison and Jessica Cheung, with help from Diana Wyn, Asda Chetervady, and Claire Tennis-Sketter. It was edited by Michael Benoît with help from Ben Calhoun, researched by Susan Lee, contains original music by Chelsea Daniel, Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Buitu, Ron Niemistow, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg of Wunderly. Specialrle. Special thanks to Rochelle Banja and Jody Cantor. That's it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernousi. See you on Monday.