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Hi, everyone. Sabrina here. Just popping in to remind you, every weekend on Saturday, we're going to be sending you episodes of a news show our colleagues are making. The show is called The Interview. This week, Lulu Garcia Navarro talks with radio host, Charlemagne the God. Okay, here's the show. From the New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu García-Navarro. I interview a lot of politicians, and I'll be honest, I'm jealous of how many of them want to talk to Charlemagne the God. As the co-host of the wildly popular radio show, The Breakfast Club, Charlemagne, who was born Leonard McHelvie, has become a go-to interviewer for politicians who want to reach the show's largely Black audience and who aren't afraid of a good, tough conversation. And this year, with polls showing Donald Trump's growing popularity with Black male voters, reaching that audience for candidates in both parties is more critical than ever. The Breakfast Club has nearly 6 million listeners every month on the radio, plus the YouTube channel, the podcast, and the clips from its interviews that regularly go viral. Even if you've never listened to the show, you probably know about some of the more memorable episodes, like in 2020, when then candidate Joe Biden went on and dropped this line, If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't Black.

Even though Biden got huge blowback for that comment, Charlemagne endorsed the Democratic ticket, but this time around, he said he won't endorse anyone. That decision has led to some speculation about his personal politics. It also made me curious about how he wants to wield his considerable influence and what he thinks of the potential shift happening among Black voters. When we spoke, Charlemagne was getting ready to publish a new book, Get Honest or Die Lying: Why Small Talk Sucks. And he had just come off a stint guest hosting The Daily Show, where some of his comments got a lot of attention. Here's my conversation with Charlemagne the God. Your new book is about small talk and how you think it's bad. I want to start with some big issues. Let's get right to it.

Let's get right to it.

We know what we're here for. We know what we're here for. Exactly. You just went on The Daily Show, and you went after DEI initiatives. That's diversity, equity, and inclusion. You said it's mostly garbage, it's a PR stunt, and you said it makes things worse for Black people because of the backlash effect. Can you just tell me a little bit about why you wanted to take that on in particular?

I don't have a problem with DEI. I was talking about corporate DEI initiatives that were created after George Floyd, those issues that were more symbolism over substance, those corporations that pledged all of this money to different Black initiatives, and nobody ever saw any of that money. I'm talking about the corporations who do things like putting a Simone Biles poster in the break room and saying something like, We're head over heroes for diversity here. That's the DEI initiatives I were talking about. I'm not talking about DEI overall. And it's so interesting to me because I love of what the right wing media does.

I was about to say you got widely celebrated for this. I actually first saw this on Fox News.

But they do that on purpose because they won't listen to 99% of anything I'll say, but I'll take that one line and say, Charlemagne the God says DEI is mostly garbage. And then what happens, people on the left, instead of actually going to listen to what I actually said, they just respond to the narrative that was created by right wing media. So now you got people on the left attacking me and attacking a narrative that really is nothing.

So then why wait into these waters? You know the DEI is at the center of a huge cultural battle. You know that this is one of the right's main talking points. They think that DEI is indoctrination. Absolutely. So then why go on The Daily Show and choose to- Because it's a good conversation, and it's a conversation that we need to have.

Maybe I just want DEI and the corporate work environments to be better. I can be sitting in a corporate boardroom and be hearing all of this stuff in a sensitivity training meeting, and I'm like, This isn't even for me.

So this is based on your personal experience of sitting in these meetings? Absolutely.

We take these tests at iHeartRadio, and you got to answer certain questions, and you know what that's about. But my biggest issue with corporate DEI is literally just the performativeness of it all, especially when we're talking about the money that was pledged by all of these different corporations that nobody I ever saw.

There was a lot of backlash to this.

And a lot of people who agreed.

And a lot of people who agreed.

And not just people on the right.

But what I found interesting about all the comments is this thing that happens with you a lot, which is people wondering, as they have for a while, what is Charlemagne the God all about? Where does he stand politically?

That's so funny you say that. I promise you, as I was walking in here, this white guy stops me in the street. He had on glasses, some khakis, a sweater. And he goes, You're Charlemagne, right? And I go, Yeah. And he goes, Man, I like when you talk politics. And he goes, Man, I think that it's going to be a civil war in this country. He said, That's what you need to talk about. He said, I don't care who wins. He said, I don't care if it's Trump, I don't care if it's Biden. I feel like it's going to be a civil war in this country And he goes, What side are you on? And I'm like, I'm not on any side. And I think that's the problem with American politics in just America, period. People think if me as a Black man, if I criticize Democrats, then I'm supporting MAGA. But if I criticize Donald Trump and Republicans, then I'm a Democratic shell. Why can't I just be a person who deals in nuance? What happened to just being objective and seeing things on both sides because nothing is all right and nothing is all wrong either.

Well, I think what people would probably answer is that the rise of Trump has really polarized people.

Absolutely.

And so to say, Oh, I don't take aside, some people, especially on the left, would say, Well, that's not right either.

Why? I think we do ourselves a grave disservice by thinking, I can't criticize Democrats, and I can't criticize Republicans, and still know who I want to vote for in November in order to preserve democracy. There's not a show I've been on. When they ask me about Donald Trump, I say the same thing. He's a threat to democracy. He literally said, let's suspend the Constitution to overthrow the results of an election. You saw his lawyers in the court saying, well, he never agreed to support the Constitution. He led an insurrection of this country on January sixth, and people just act like it was a bunch of kids wiling out at spring break in Miami. I say these things over and over and over. But if somebody like John Karl says to me, Well, this happens. It's in the interview. You can watch it. Well, President Biden says these things, too, about Donald Trump. Why don't you think it resonates? And I say, Because he's an uninspiring candidate who who doesn't have any main character energy. The right will take that one clip and say, Charlamagne says Joe Biden is an uninspiring candidate who has no main character energy.

And once again, everybody on the left attacks that narrative instead of going to watch the interview and taking the narrative they should be using, which is Charlemagne says, Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. We are insane right now. I blame the media so much for what's happening.

You are the media.

Yes, but listen, look at what I'm doing. I'm being objective. I tell people all the time, if you lie to them about Democrats, they won't believe you when you tell them the truth about Republicans. So why would I sit there and lie to people about the flaws I see in the Democratic Party?

Well, you've asked why you should take aside publicly. I think some people would say because you, Charlemagne, have a different responsibility because you have this particular platform. People, your audience of millions, do look you because they respect you, they listen to you. You're not just some guy in a voting booth. You're a guy who really does have an impact, and they want to know what you think.

I'm telling them what I think.

Let's go back. I actually want to ask you about your political evolution and how you came up.

Let's do it.

Did you think of politics at all when you were growing up? Did you think about the way things were?

A hundred %. But my mind state at the time was a little bit different because I grew up Jehovah's Witness. So when you grow up Jehovah's Witness, you don't vote. That's not what they do. They stay away from it. But I also read a lot of books. My mother was an English teacher. She told me, verbatim, read things that don't pertain to you. I read so many things when I was younger, everything from Judy Bloom to Are You There, God, It's Me, Margaret, to my dad giving me the autobiography of Malcolm X. But then you listen to Jay-Z saying things like... Back then, he was saying things like, government of government. We politic ourselves. Where I'm from in South Carolina, we were always aware of government, but we had a different view of government back then, and that it's like, government will never work for us. It will never work for us because we're Black. So the only thing we could do is try to do for self. But as I've grown older, I realized, Oh, this politics thing can really influence people in a real way.

You love South Carolina When you got your big break on the Wendy Williams experience, you end up in New York. You started the Breakfast Club in 2010. What were you trying to do with the show then?

Same exact thing I'm trying to do now. I've always said that the yin and the yang of life to me is ratchetness and righteousness. And so it's just for every rapper that comes on the show who you might look at and think, This person is ratchet, I try to bring the spiritual leaders on the show. I try to bring the authors on the show. Not try, I do. First time I got on the air, I think was '99, 2000. I've always done that. You can go back to my track record when I was on the radio in Charleston, South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina, Philadelphia. I was getting in trouble for bringing the mayor of Philly on my show. I'll never forget it. Mayor Nutter was the mayor of Philly at the time, and there was something going on in Philly where they were about to close all the libraries and all the rec centers. And this was 2010 when Philly was really, really on fire with crime and violence. And I remember it was on the front page of the paper that, oh, and they were going to cut a lot of the police. So they were going to cut a large part of the police, close the rec centers and the libraries.

And people were freaking out because they knew what that was going to do to the city. And I remember Mayor Nutter came on the show to let everybody know, no, everything is fine. We got the money. None of that is happening. Cool. I remember a radio consultant at the time literally said to me when the show was over and I was in his office, a radio consultant. He goes, you know, Yeah, nobody really cares about the mayor. People want to hear from Beyoncé. And I said to him, I said, Yeah, it's easy for you to say that because you don't live in Philadelphia. White guy that didn't live in Philadelphia. You don't live here. So you flew in to listen to the radio to consult me on what I should be talking about to the city of Philadelphia, and you're going to fly back to wherever you're from and not even care about what's going on in the city. That was the mayor of Philadelphia talking about something that was a real concern to the people of Philadelphia. So that shows how out of touch a lot of these programmers and people that run these media corporations are.

And I've always pushed against that grain.

Tell me where that comes from. When you bring the mayor of Philadelphia on to what is a popular culture show, essentially. What did you understand that you were up to?

I understood people. I understood that my people, Black people, people in hip hop, we care more than just things about hip hop. There's never been a time where hip hop has not talked about things of socially redeeming value. There's always been a Chuck D. There's always been a killer Mike. I don't know why people think that Black people are so one dimensional that you can't bring an elected official on a hip hop radio station where so many people that are directly affected by the things these elected officials are doing are listening. Why wouldn't my audience be receptive to that? We talk about diversity, right? We're talking about the DEI thing. I feel like Black people with our platforms and just in society, we have to be way more diverse than White people do because we have to know what's going on with a little bit of everybody because we deal with a little bit of everybody, and we encounter a little bit of everybody. It's easy to stay insulated in your bubble and just be around whiteness for the majority of your life. That's never been my experience. So I don't understand why we can't do both and do it well.

The The only way you can't do both and do it well is if you're not equipped. And if you're being realistic, there are a lot of people who aren't equipped to talk to a Kodak Black and a President Biden. You know what I mean? That's a very unique skillset that probably comes from somebody who's Black.

Does one help you prepare for the other? I mean, what is- Yeah.

Hell, yeah. That's a great question. I've never approached any conversation with fear. And If you can stare down a so-called gangster rapper who's got their whole crew in the studio, if I can ask those questions to him, I can damn sure ask these questions to an elected official.

Okay. I'm really curious how you prepare for interviews like this because you just had Eric Adams on. That's right. It was a pretty wild interview. I'm just curious about your choice to have him mostly interviewed by a former public defender.

Oley Yemi, O'Laurin.

Oley Yemi, O'Laurin. Yeah, we need to say Oley. Oley. Okay, so Oley came on to interview him. First of all, did Eric Adams know he was walking into an interview like that, meaning combative and with an activist?

Combative? I don't think he thought he was walking into a combative interview, but I think people know the Breakfast Club. I think that for the For the most part, if you come on the Breakfast Club, you're going to get asked some really tough questions. He did not know that Ola was going to be there, but we've been rotating, even though we have our new third co-host who is Jess Hilarious. But all last year, we rotated guest hosts. So I've been watching Ola for a long time, and I like a lot of the things that she talks about. And I think that she challenges me, Eric Adams, in a real way. I think she asked some real questions. And we see the state of New York right now. New Yorkers have real questions about New York City. Is New York City safe? The migrant issue is a real issue. I felt like there was a lot of real high-level conversations that needed to be had, and I thought Ola would be perfect for him, and I thought she did a fantastic job, and I thought the mayor did a fantastic job. That made me like Mayor Adams even more, because what I realized is it's something I always knew about politicians.

He's just doing his best. You got to think about what he inherited, what we just came out of in regards starts to COVID and the hole that he's digging himself out of. So he's just really, really attempting to do his best. And I thought it was very interesting to watch him not run from the tough questions, not duck, show real emotion. I thought that that was a great conversation between a mayor of a major city and one of his constituents.

Is that what you're hoping these moments will provide? Just authenticity, I guess?

Authenticity that leads to authentic information and great conversation that people can actually learn from. Even just from the feedback I've gotten from people, some people feel like Ola might have been too tough on the mayor. Some people feel like the mayor did a great job. I don't think you can ever be too tough on an elected official. I just don't. They're an elected official. They're there for a reason. They wake up in the morning ready to be in the hot seat.

With that said, who do you decide that you want to go really hard on? Because I've listened to some of your recent interviews with Conservatives like Larry Alder, Vivek Ramiswami, Candice Owens, and they weren't nearly as combative.

That's not what the internet says. Everybody else says, Other than Candice Owens, they felt like we was too hard on Larry Alder. They felt like we was too hard on Vivek Ramiswami. The second conversation we had with Vivek Ramiswami was more smooth.

That's the one I'm referencing.

But the reason that was more smooth is because he's not running for office anymore. It's an inconsequential conversation. You're not running for anything. Candice Owens is not an elected official. I think this right here shows me what's wrong with our country.

I'm interested in why you think that shows you what's wrong with this country. But I have to be honest, watching some of those interviews, I was wondering why there wasn't more pushback on questionable assertions, including- Give me some examples. Well, yeah, real misinformation. Larry elders saying that the nuclear family was ruined by welfare or Vivek's great replacement theory, which he's been pushing, which is a racist theory that Democrats are bringing in Black and Brown people to replace the White race.

We definitely pushed back on the Larry elder when he said the nuclear family.

Yeah, it was ruined by the welfare system being brought in by the '45s.

In that conversation, Teslin Figaro was on, and Teslin was definitely pushing back on that. People really don't. And that's another thing, right?

But I guess it's like, where are you in this? What is your role? Do you see yourself as a mediator? This is your show.

Yeah, it depends. I'm listening a lot of times. I don't approach any conversation like, I want to have a confrontation.

But you go hard on hip hop people. I've seen you do that. And they're not elected officials. They're people with power. Isn't it less about being an elected official and more about who has power?

It depends what you're doing with your power. When you talk about hip hop, telling somebody that their music is whack, that's really an inconsequential conversation. That's not real power. Mayor Adams has actual power. Elected officials that are in those positions They have real power. What is me telling a rapper that their music is whack? I don't think you're a good rapper. How is that consequential to what's going on in our society? And if somebody already has an opinion that I don't agree with, let's just say it's an issue. Everybody was talking about things that Candice Owens has said in the past. If I already know her opinion on that, and I know we're not going to agree on that, what would I be bringing it up for other than to be performative?

You have noted yourself that people come on to pander to your audience politically. I mean, you had that conversation very virally with former Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, and presidential candidate in 2016. Do you feel protective of your audience?

Yes, but I don't think... Let me word this correctly because I might see something later and be like, I was wrong. But I don't think Democrats pander as much as they used to, at least when they come to Breakfast Club, because they know when they come to Breakfast Club, even when they sit down with me, we're going to have a real conversation. I think that's why they continue to come. Somebody like Secretary Pete. Secretary Pete has not stopped coming to Breakfast Club.

Pete Buda Judge. Pete Buda Judge. Secretary of Transportation.

I tell Pete that every time he comes. And the reason I tell that every time he comes is because a lot of these people only like to come around when it's election season. And that's when it really looks like pandering. That's when it really looks like dream selling. And by the way, it should be. You should be trying to sell us something. You should be trying to encourage us to go out there and vote for you. Yeah, cut more student loan debt. Do those things. Yeah, pardon more people who are in prison on a federal level for marijuana, nonviolent drug offenses. Yeah, continue to do that, especially in an election year, and let's push for more of that. But guys like Secretary Pete, they've been coming for the last four years. That says something to me, and I definitely know it says something to our audience, and so I respect him for that.

You brought it up. It's election season. A lot has been made of these polls showing Black support for the Democrats cratering. You've been asked about this a lot. I'm just wondering what you're thinking as more and more of these polls keep showing the same thing.

I think you might see a slight uptick in Black people voting for Trump this year, but I think it's overstated. I think they said the numbers like 22 %. I don't think that 22 % of Black people are going to vote for Donald Trump. I think the biggest thing that people are going to have to fight against this year is the couch. And that's what I've been saying. I keep I'm saying it over and over. This election is three options: Republicans who are the crooks, Democrats who are the cowards, because they don't fight enough for nothing, and the couch. And the couch is voter apathy. And I think that a lot of people are just discouraged with politics, period. There's all this talk about people being tired of Democrats. No, people are just tired of politics, period. Come November, man, people are just going to be like, eh, because this is probably the most, and what I'm about to say is going to sound so cliché. This is probably the most consequential election of my lifetime, '45. I'm not going to say it by all time, but it's hard to get people to believe that because we say that about every presidential election.

Because every Republican candidate has been demonized in that way. So now that you really do have the wolf out there, you look like the party who cried the wolf because you put everything on the same scale. This Donald Trump guy is different. The things he wants to do is different. You've seen what he's capable of doing and willing to do. Now that he knows the things that he can get away with and the people around him know the things that they can get away with, you think they're not going to go all the way for it. But it's hard to explain that to people because people have been hearing that it's an end to democracy every time there's a Republican presidential candidate.

So, Charlemagne, I'm hearing you, and the thing that I'm hearing you say is that you believe that Trump is the wolf at the door, that democracy is under threat. I've also heard you say, I will not endorse President Biden and Kamala Harris.

What does that have to do with voting, though? I've never said I'm not voting. If I'm laying it out right there on the table and I'm telling you that I'm voting to preserve democracy, who do you think, out of those two options, is willing to preserve democracy? Just because I don't want to jump out there and say, I'm endorsing this person or I'm endorsing that person. I missed the days when nobody talked about who they were voting for. I don't know when we had to start laying all that on the table. I'm not endorsing because I just feel like I've been burned with that before. Because you put your name on the line, you endorse somebody, you tell your audience this is who you should go out there and vote for, and your audience goes and does it. And then when they see these things that they thought were going to get pushed through. They don't understand civics. They're not thinking about that. They're like, all they know is, Charlemagne told me to vote for this person because this was going to happen and this didn't happen.

One of the things you have been talking about is how they haven't been able to make the things that they've done real to people.

The messaging sucks. It's terrible. I say it all the time. The language of politics is dead. If you've ever had a conversation I'm in a conversation with 90 % of these elected officials, man, I love to use 90 %. I don't know why. But if you talk to, and I'll use examples, if you talk to Vice President Kamala Harris behind the scenes, you're like, Where is this person? If America saw this person, if this person... And you saw glimpses of it when she used to be holding it to those people in those Senate hearings, holding it to those other officials. But if you saw this person and this person decided to say, You know what? I'm not going to let Fox News manipulate my narratives anymore. I'm going to go on Fox News and have these conversations with this audience. You'll be surprised how many people that's probably watching Fox News, those hypothetical swing boaters they love so much. They be like, I like her. But it's the craziest psychological mind fuck when you talk to these people and then you see them in front of the camera and you're like, who is this person?

And I'm not just putting it on the vice President, because I think that there's a whole Democratic Party of surrogates that President Biden should be using. I think he should be using Governor Shapiro. I think he should be using Governor Newsom because I think Governor Newsom did a great job of elevating himself in the conversation by going on Fox News, by going on Sean Hannity show, by debating Ron DeSantis. I think he should be using Governor Westmore of Maryland. I think he should be using those individuals to really tell the story of what's going on. But I do put a lot on the vice President because I think she's so talented.

You just mentioned a whole bunch of surrogates that the Biden administration should deploy. You didn't mention former President Obama, and I'm just curious, why not? And if you think he is a good surrogate for Biden? I don't know.

That's a great question. It don't feel like he's on the front lines. It don't feel like he's in active duty. Like all of those other people, their gun is warm right now. It feel like his gun is on safety, locked up in a boat somewhere. Not saying that he can't come out and get it cracking, but I just don't know. He just don't- He doesn't what?

Feel relevant?

I guess they can't say relevant, right? He's President Barack Obama. That's what I was about to say. He can't say relevant. He just don't feel like he's of this moment. Maybe that's his own doing. I don't know what he could say that's going to really move people in 2024. Don't get me wrong, he's one of the best speakers of all time, but I just don't know what he could say in this moment that's going to move people. Because a lot of people, I remember when he came out and he put out a tweet about Roe v Wade after Roe v Wade was overturned. And a lot of people got on him and they was like, This is your fault. You had an opportunity to codify Roe v Wade when you were in the White House. So don't come out shaking your finger at us now. I saw the backlash to that. And by the way, he could do whatever he wanted. He's the former President Barack Obama. Instead of talking to the American people, I think that what he's doing from what I've heard behind the scenes, pushing the Biden administration, lighting the fire up under their ass, telling them they need to have a sense of urgency.

Hey, you all may lose this election in 2024. If you all don't pivot here and pivot there, I think that's where he's probably most suited.

This is my last question for now. Are you optimistic about where this country is going?

It depends, right? Because when you say country, there's a lot of different parts to that. I'm optimistic because I have to be because I grew up poor and disenfranchized on a dirt road in Monks Corn, South Carolina. I grew up in a single wide trailer. So it's like I have no choice but to be optimistic as a Black man in America because I've seen the worst of the worst. I wouldn't be sitting here with you, having a conversation with you if I didn't have a case for optimism. But, man, what scares me the most is that you have all of the so-called smart people being dumb. And I really think it's because of social media. I think social media is ruining us. And I think that it's only going to get worse because people don't know what's real and they don't know what's not real now. I feel like that's what they do with me. They can literally take a clip of something I said and say, Look, he's supporting Donald Trump. Or they could take this clip and say, Look, he's supporting Biden. It's like, no, I'm just having an objective, nuanced conversation. And what scares me is that somebody's going to listen to this whole New York Times interview, and people are going to take what they want from it to push their narrative.

How does that help people? It makes us not even want to try to see things from a different way because we don't want the words that are coming out of our mouth to be misconstrued. So when you ask me, am I optimistic? I have no choice but to be because I believe in a high power. I believe in God. But, man, the way things are going right now, I think that we're doing a great job of letting a would be dictator back into the White House.

Charlemagne, we're going to talk later this week, and I'm really looking forward to it. Absolutely.

Thank you for having me.

After the break, I follow up with Charlemagne about how he feels let down by the Democrats and why those polls about Black voters really drive him crazy.

They're not going to blame this on Black men. I see where this narrative is going, and I don't like I gave my brother a New York Times subscription.

She sent me a year long subscription, so I have access to all the games. We'll do so many spelling bee.

It has given us a personal connection. We exchange articles. Having read the same article, we can discuss it. The coverage, the option, it's not just news. Such a diversified desk. I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes. And we even just shared a recipe the other day. The New York Times contributes to our quality time together. You have all of that information at your fingertips. It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons. It was such a cool and thoughtful gift. We're reading the same stuff, we're making the same food, we're on the same page. Connect even more with someone you care about. Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift at nytimes. Com/gift. Charlemagne.

Hey, is this Lulu?

It is. It's Lulu. What's up, Lulu? Charlemagne, I've been thinking about something you said earlier. We talked a lot about Democrats bad messaging, but not a lot about the substance of the Biden administration's policies. What was it that you didn't get from them that you wanted to Oh, man.

Personally, just for me, I just think there's a lot of things that they could have been way stronger on because they told us, vote for President Biden, get him in the White House. Then they said they pushed in Georgia to get these Senate seats because if they can get the number of seats they need, then they can really make things happen. And fight President Kamala Haas will have the tiebreaker. But, man, it's like they volunteered those lies, right? Because they know the politics of their senators, like the Joe Manz and the Kristen Sinema. They know the politics of them better than we the people do. So they knew that there was a lot of these things that they wouldn't be able to make happen, like the George Floyd Policing Act, like the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. They knew these things weren't going to happen. We can keep saying things like, Well, it's Congress's fault. Yes, it is. You're right. But guess who's the President of the United States of America? That person gets the credit. What you saw recently with With this so-called uptick that's supposed to happen with Black votes in Trump, like I said, I think that's overstated.

But I do think there are three tangible things people point to in regards to President Trump. One is those stimulus checks, another is those PPP loans, and another is the First Step Back. And the reason those three things resonate with people is because folks actually got money in their pocket, but they're not looking as to why. It's sadly because we had to go through something like COVID, so you don't want millions of people to have to die for you to get a stimulus check or for you to get a PPP loan. And then the First Step Back, there's people who actually saw family members and people who they love actually get out of prison, and he takes the credit for it.

But isn't there something bigger going on? Because I recently heard you interview Ray Jay, and he said, in his world, at least, you can't get canceled for supporting Trump anymore. I'm going to quote it. He said, I guarantee you this, you can't get canceled if you say you're going to vote Donald Trump like you used to. If you say that, you are risking something. Now it's like, I'm voting for him, too.

I mean, we'll see. I can't say just because Ray Jay wants to vote for Trump, that it's his shit. And all Black men. Maybe I'm delusional, and I just don't think that no one celebrity or any influencer or YouTuber has that power. Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm bugging. Maybe I need to take a step back and really look at all of this power and influence that you all say these individuals I don't see Ray Jay saying that making me believe that 30% of all Black men are going to come out and vote for Donald Trump. Do I think it's going to be an up kick? Yes. I just don't think the numbers are going to be like that.

To be clear, Ray J didn't say he was going to vote for Donald Trump. Let's also be clear. That's not what he said.

Yeah, he just said that it's cool not to say for Trump. But this is the other thing I don't want, too. They're not going to blame this on Black men. They're not going to do that. I already see where this is going. I hate it. In 2016, when Hillary Clinton ran for President, Black women showed up like they always do, our second-highest base with us, Black men. When it comes to Donald Trump, Those white suburban women elected him in 2016. And 2020, a lot of them were right there, too. They're not about to blame this on Black men. No, I see where this narrative is going, and I don't like I mean, I guess people find the shift, if shift it is, surprising because I guess they're wondering why isn't the racism a deal-breaker, or is that an unfair assumption to make about Black voters? Well, I can't speak for all Black voters, but I will say they said Lyndon B. Johnson was a racist. But I mean, look at the things that Martin Luther King Jr. And the different civil rights movements at that time were able to push Lyndon B. Johnson to do.

I mean, when you bring up President Biden, you cannot bring up President Biden without talking about the '80s mandatory minimum citizen, the '88 crack laws, and the '94 crime bill. And I remember, if people go back and watch my conversation with Joe Biden on Breakfast Club, I said to him, the '94 crime bill led to mass incarceration. And he goes, No, it was mandatory minimum citizen. And I go, Yeah, and you were behind that one, too. So it's like, we know all of these things, but we still vote because we have to vote for our best interests. We have to vote for the people that we feel like we can move.

Charlamagne, I want to bring it back to you because you have found yourself in this position where you have a lot of influence, I would say a lot of power. I'm wondering how you feel about that. How far does it reach? Where do you want it to go?

I can promise you I am not sitting around thinking about how much power I got.

No, I know that. But you know what I mean? But I just wonder like...

It makes my skin crawl a little bit. I'm not even thinking about that. I say it all the time. I'm just a person who has a ticket to a show who gets to go talk to the artist after the show. So I'm watching the same thing that everybody else is watching. I'm in tune with the same thing that everybody else is in tune with. I just get to sit down and have a conversation with these people When the show is over. And that's literally how I always approach it. I just always approach it from a place of curiosity. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. I just want people to get information, and you do whatever it is you choose to do with that information. I don't have any other aspirations other than that.

That's Charlemagne the God. His new book is Get Honest or Die Lying: Why Small Talk Sucks. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orm. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Affim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devon Yalkin. Priya Matthew is our senior Booker, and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Ronan Borelli, nick Pitman, Isaac Jones, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview wherever you get your podcast. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes. Com/theinterview. Next week on The Interview, my co-host, David Markezi, speaks with climate scientist Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. We went from, is this really happening? To, how serious is this? To, oh, God, it's so bad. Let's just give up. And skipped this middle step of all hands on deck. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from the New York Times.