From the New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. It is hard to describe Demi Moore's new movie, The Substance. On the one hand, it's a dark comedy about the horrors of getting older as a woman in Hollywood, but it's also a literal body horror film. The basic premise is that Moore's character takes this strange elixir that allows her to create a younger, more perfect version of herself. And you can see that creation in bloody visceral detail. It's a movie that challenges us to look at what drives our celebrity-obsessed culture and the damage it does to our female stars. Moore is already getting awards buzz for it. And even though, I'll confess, I was grossed out watching it, I also couldn't look away. I've been mesmerized by Demi Moore my whole life. One of her first big films, San Alma's Fire in 1985, made me want to go to where it was partially set, Georgetown University, which I eventually did. Ghost, with that famous scene of her making pottery with Patrick Swayze, made me want to live in a New York loft. That, alas, never happened. Her later films, like A Few Good Men, GI Jane, Indecent Proposal, were basically the metronome of my younger life.

Along the way, I grew to admire her chutzpa as she became the highest paid actress in Hollywood, as well as an early advocate of pay equity more broadly, long before the issue was part of the national discourse. And after a stint away from Hollywood, in 2019, she panned a smart and revealing memoir about her tumultuous childhood, her iconic roles, and her high-profile marriage messages to both Bruce Willis and Ashton Kutcher. More is now in her 60s, and she tells me she's finally grown comfortable in her own skin and is abending expectations about what it means to be an aging woman in the industry that both embraced and judged her her whole career. Here's my conversation with Demi Moore. I see we have a special guest.

Yes, we do. Peel off the little mouse.

Peel off the little mouse. Just because people won't be able to see you, you have peel off in a sling?

Yes. Generally, she likes to be close up to the heart. That's her job. She regulates the heart.

I'm a dog person, so I'm just like, we're just going to have her be here, and I'm very excited about that. All right, let's talk about the new movie. Okay. I haven't stopped thinking about it since I saw it. You play Elizabeth Sparkle, which is a fantastic name. She's an aging actress turned celebrity fitness instructor. Why did you sign on to star in a movie about a woman who's aging in Hollywood and at war with her own body? Because obviously, it felt very meta watching you do this.

Well, first of all, let me say, on one hand, why it was easy for me to step in and do this is because I don't feel I am her. This is a woman who has no family. She's dedicated her entire life to her career. When that's taken, what does she have? I feel like, in a way, I had enough separation from her and at the same time, a deep internal connection connection to the pain that she was experiencing, the rejection that she felt. I knew it would be challenging, but potentially really important. Important exploration on the issue.

Tell me what you understand the issue to be because there's so much in this film.

Well, I think when I really look at it, for me, what was the most powerful is that it's not about what's being done to us, it's what we do to ourselves. It's the violence that we have against ourselves, the lack of love and self-acceptance, and that Within the story, we have this male perspective of the idealized woman that I feel like we, as women, have bought into.

The movie starts with your character sitting down with a male executive and being told, When you turn 50, it's over. Is that something that you heard a lot working in Hollywood?

I feel like it's less overt. It's less overt and a little bit more of the unspoken perception that your desirability, and I think there's a line in the film that says this, that your desirability as a woman is done with your fertility, which for me, it's, again, it's a perception that's been bought into, but it doesn't make it the truth.

I was watching you, and there's a real vulnerability to your role, which is you're naked in a lot of the film. I was thinking about what it meant for you to be so exposed now in your '60s as opposed to your '20s, because you have this duality here. You're playing with Margaret Qualey, who is supposed to be the younger version of you. I was wondering, are you more comfortable, less comfortable?

I mean, going into this, I knew this is not about me looking great. In fact, on one hand, to be honest, there was a certain liberation in the role that wasn't having to be perfect. It's not that there aren't shots in it like I go, Oh, my ass looks awful. But I'm also okay with it. I'm in acceptance of it. I think part of what was interesting is that Elizabeth is being rejected and It's not that I look that bad.

You look unbelievably fantastic. But it's not like- But you can see that you're not 20.

Exactly. But I mean, look, I certainly went through very thoughtful consideration about all of it, going in, not only that, knowing that there were going to be shots and angles and things done to actually accentuate not looking good. But I think that there was great beauty in that. I've struggled with letting my vulnerability be seen in my personal life, even though I I know that our greatest power is our vulnerability, and yet I fight against it all the time.

I watched you in that scene where you're standing fully naked and you have a closeup of your backside and all of it. I thought, That's incredibly brave. Then I thought, I'm not happy that I feel that that is brave.

That's an interesting thought. I think that the idea that it related to being brave is because we all know that we age, and so it's not as plump and robust and tight. It's those things that are parts of the body that we don't necessarily always want everybody to see when it's not what it It used to be.

They make it a really big feature of the film. I mean, you get all the closeups of Margaret's body, and I don't know how old she is.

Twenty-something.

Twenty-something, yeah. She looks it. You're seeing it in comparison. What were you thinking when you saw that, that comparison?

What's interesting is, it goes back again to that male perspective of the idealized woman, the one being rejected because the ass isn't as plump and as high and as tight, and this other that's being celebrated. I guess in looking at it outside of the first knee jerk of like, I didn't love my butt. It was really more for me. I felt more proud of the power between showing the two, the vulnerable part and the part that has yet to experience. She's newly born. She doesn't know yet what life is. The question is, would you trade your wisdom for a tight ass.

Where do you land on that question?

I would like to not have to choose. I think part of, for me, the liberation of doing this film was in a way of realizing that I'm here to define who I am at almost 62, and I don't need to play by any rules that have existed up until now. I don't know what that is because I haven't been here before. It's like the idea I remember long, long, long ago somewhere, like hearing in passing, that at a certain age, you shouldn't have long hair. I think unconsciously, there was a part of me that didn't buy into that, that said, Well, who made that rule? Somehow, after I had shaved my head for GI Jane, I just started to let my hair grow. I don't know if it's a part of me that's a bit rebellious or that's also just trying to challenge the question. Just because that's how it's been, that doesn't mean that's how it has to be.

Do you think all women should shave their heads at some point?

Well, I would say that there is a very powerful experience with shaving your head, and I probably never felt more naked than when my head was shaved. It was quite life-changing, in fact, because not only did I... I realized we as women, we move through the world, we go like this, whereas men move very direct and very forward without apology.

You're moving your hand like undulating.

Yeah, we move side to side. When I didn't have that, I sat in myself in a very different way. I feel like I took and had a strength. You see the length of my hair. It's not how I wanted to go forward with having a shaved head, but it was very empowering.

You sound like you've gotten to some degree of acceptance about where you are in your life. After struggling with self-image for such a long time, after struggling with being in the public eye and being judged. I do want to ask you about, though, what you think about discussing this stuff openly. Is it better to talk about it and normalize it, or is it better to keep it private and say, It's none of your business what I do?

I don't know. This is a of a tough question. I've lived a life that's both been extremely private and public. I've had a huge learning curve with that. I had talk about feeling unsafe, to the point where I felt like my life had become almost agoraphobic and I never wanted to leave my house. There's I don't know if there's any one right way, but I think it really is about the individual.

I mean, your book is an incredibly open memoir. I mean, it is one of the best celebrity memoirs I've read. Oh, gosh.

Thank you.

It's also very revealing in a way that is at times shocking in someone as well known as you are and clearly deeply emotional. It came out five years ago. I'm wondering what it feels like now that it's been out in the world for a while to have revealed so much of yourself.

I was very thoughtful about what I shared because there's a lot more life that's lived than is in the book. I think for me, the personal catharsis was in really exploring the essential question that I had, which is, how did I get here? How did I get here? Coming from where I came from on paper, the life that I've lived.

Growing up poor with an extremely dysfunctional and stable household.

Yeah. No education, no guidance, no safety net, on my own at 16. To really the places I've been, the people I've met, the opportunities of things I've It was like, How did I get here? Wow. Then the other part, obviously, is I start the book with my life really having exploded. Then the question was like, How the fuck did I get here? Looking at the parallel of Those two things allowed me also to be able to really see the gifts within all of the challenges that occurred. In fact, it gave me a deep compassion for my mother because I thought, If I can't I find compassion for my mother, an innocent being who came into the world just as we all do, how can I expect my children to have compassion for me, for my failings?

That very difficult relationship with your mother, who was an alcoholic and- Bipolar, yes. And this very difficult upbringing that you had, it did send you on this journey of trying to control your body in different ways through disordered eating, through excessive exercise, is through drugs and alcohol. You became sober, we should say, in your 20s. When you were starting out in the industry, it must have been pretty common to have those issues. Do you remember talking to other young actresses about that stuff, or was it kept private?

I don't know if I ever had... I can't think of anything specific. I think there was a general sense about certain expectations. But I look in particular coming out of the '80s and the '90s, where there was, I think, a greater pressure for perfection that existed. If you look at any advertising, everything was very clean and perfect, and there wasn't any body inclusivity. There was a more extreme standard of beauty that existed. I did, as I wrote in the book, personally experience being told to lose weight on quite a few films before I ever even had my children. Again, those were humiliating experiences, but the true violence was what I was doing to myself. The way in which I tortured myself, did extreme crazy exercise, weighed and measured my food because I was putting all of my value of who I was into how my body was, how it looked, and again, giving other people's opinion more power than myself.

When did you realize that that was having such an enormous effect on you, that the outside gaze, not only just of men, but of everybody, was really damaging your own sense of who you were?

I think after I finished GI Jane is when I had a huge shift because I think I had manipulated my body. I had changed it over multiple times through just pure force and discipline. When I finished that film, I think I was so worn down in this battle that I had been in. That I finally surrendered. I feel like I just started to ask to be my natural size because I didn't know what it was. I literally couldn't go in a gym. I couldn't control food in that way. I really experienced the gift of surrender, not giving up, but surrendering this idea that I was actually in control. I I moved into probably what I would say was almost like a spiritual awakening of really knowing what it is when you accept yourself exactly in that moment, even if you don't like it.

Was part of that to do with the fact that you had transformed yourself so much for that role, and it had been not well received, and you were getting a lot of criticism. It was coming off of the back of striptease as well.

Mm-hmm.

That it just turned off that spigot, that you just were like, I'm not going to listen to this anymore?

I mean, even before any of that happened, I think that I truly was physically worn down. I mean, I finished that film with a shaved head, and I was 138 pounds. For me, that's a lot. I felt like I didn't... It's not that I was a different person, but I didn't know who... It was this thing where... I think on a personal level, I finished that, and then not too long after I finished, my mother was dying, my relationship was starting to disintegrate. I think it was all just mounting. It was like I needed all of that happening at once, actually, to get me to the point of surrendering and letting go.

I mean, you were someone who, and especially at this point, you were one of the most famous women in the world, a lot of interest in your personal life, and just this sense that you were being too well-paid, you were too powerful, you were too much.

Well, I think I can look back. On one hand, with striptease, it was as if I had betrayed women. And with GI Jane, it was as if I had betrayed men. But I think the interesting piece in that is that when I became the highest paid actress, there was something, if you really look at collectively, why is it that at that moment, the choice was to bring me down. Again, I don't take this personal. I think whoever it had been, this may have happened to. But because I did a film that was dealing with the world of stripping and the body, I was extremely ashamed. I think anyone who had been in the position that was the first to get that equality of pay would probably have taken a hit.

At that moment, your husband, Bruce, was getting paid a huge amount of money for doing films. Did you compare yourself to him? Did you talk about it with him? Did he understand that you asking for equal pay was fair? Because you were married to a fellow actor.

I never really spoke about it because, again, for me, I wasn't in competition with anybody else. It was about my own competition with myself to see what's the best that I can do.

You didn't understand that it had significance for all female actors?

Oh, 100%. I knew that a new baseline being set, that for me, was the greatest gift of all of it. But inside myself, it wasn't about comparing myself to him. I had like, yes, I saw what they got paid. It was really more about just like, why shouldn't I? If I'm doing the same amount of work, why shouldn't I? It's no different than when I did the cover for Vanity Fair pregnant. I didn't understand why it was such a big deal to why women, when they were pregnant, needed to be hidden. Why is it that we have to deny that we had sex? That's the fear, right? Is that if you show your belly, that means, Oh, my gosh, you've had sex.

This is, of course, the Vanity Fair cover shot by Annie Levoitz that broke the internet before there was the internet of you naked and pregnant. This is the thing. There are these moments throughout your life and your career where your physical self has been at such the forefront of culture and has been really pushing the boundaries all along. And you yourself were feeling terrible about yourself.

I think that's one of the misconceptions is that when I did things like this idea that, Oh, I love my body so much, versus what the truth was is that these things were coming along. Obviously, I was choosing them, but I think that it was all in service to helping me try to overcome my issues, my self-loathing, my feeling of not being enough, and to help build my confidence, actually not because I was confident.

It's like a fake it till you make it approach.

Oh, that is my primary university. That's funny.

I'm wondering what you make this moment now where everything is being reassessed. We look back at how women were treated in the '90s and the '80s. I'm wondering what your thoughts have been on watching the culture shift.

I'm excited to see the shift. I mean, what can I say? I think it's a natural progression of women stepping in and taking their place. I That's it. I look at my daughters, and there are things they would never question about what they can and can't do in ways that were perhaps limitations that existed in my time at their same ages. Sorry, Maus. I was talking really big with my hands and I interrupted peel off sleep. Sorry. Does that make sense, by the way, what I was just saying?

It does. I also am wondering with the cultural shift, isn't it just like you're pissed off? You had to go through all that, and now the culture has finally caught up with you?

No, because why would I waste my energy being pissed off? I remember sitting down with my team and saying, I had done GI Jane. I really wanted an action film. I felt like that was something that I would really love to explore and being looked at with these polite faces, but you're crazy. I can look and see, well, since that time, actresses of that next generation down where that started to open up. I don't need to be pissed off. I can feel disappointed that that didn't happen for me. But I feel equally in like, celebration that, thank God it is. Thank God it is.

I don't want to end without asking you how Bruce Willis is doing. Obviously, there's a lot of interest and concern. Of course.

I think given the givens where he's at is in a beautiful, stable place, and you really just have to take it one day at a time. I'm so grateful that our collective families are so close and that we spend time together, that we are in such support. It's not something I would wish on anyone. But as I've said before, one of the most important things is that you really meet them where they're at and you let go of any attachment to what what they were or what you would want. You really take the joy of all of the moments you have with where they are, which is so sweet and loving.

After the break, I called Demi back and asked her about getting sober for the first time when she was 21 and what it's been like for her to experience the world as a sober person now.

I can go into a room, a gathering, and if I'm uncomfortable, I don't need to try to take the edge off it. I can actually just go, Oh, wow, isn't that interesting? I'm a little uncomfortable right now.

Hi, Lulu. Hi.

How are you?

I'm good.

I came away from our first conversation thinking about how in all these different ways, you were ahead of the culture. You were an early champion of pay equity, you were an early champion of sex positivity. The other thing we didn't really talk about is sobriety. I'm someone who has been a year and a half sober myself. Congratulations. I was wondering if you'd talk about your sobriety journey, if you feel comfortable with that.

Yeah, within certain reason, I feel like I'm so grateful to be sober. The majority of my adult life, I've been sober. It's so much more natural to me. I really fit a profile of it being genetic. It's in my family. As challenging as the moments that were low, I have to say I wouldn't exchange that for the quality of the life I have, most importantly because it's given me emotional sobriety.

Oh, explain what you mean by that.

Well, I think everyone understands the idea of being sober from drugs, alcohol, sex, shopping, those externalize things. But But what it is to be emotionally sober means how I'm choosing to live my life, the quality of how I interact with people, my ability to show up and suit up for others. That's all within my emotional sobriety. Because all the things that are used to medicate, and it's not just drugs and alcohol, there's many things, food. When you no longer have that knee jerked to numb yourself out. Yes, life can be a little edgy, but actually, now I know I can go into a room, a gathering, and if I'm uncomfortable, I don't need to try to take the edge off it, I can actually just go, Oh, wow, isn't that interesting? I'm a little uncomfortable right now.

Not reacting to the things. Yeah.

I think what I know now is when you're numbing yourself out, your discernment for things isn't the same. So I know if I'm at a party, let's say, I know when to leave because I'm not going to be on the same level anymore with other people. And I'm okay with that. I recognize I have two speeds, go and go faster. And so drugs and alcohol just aren't a right fit for me.

Reading about how you became sober, which was during St. Alma's fire, and the director basically having an intervention and saying, You have to go do this. Lots of people who struggled with addiction have had those moments, but you stuck with it. I'm wondering, looking back now, why you think that was.

Well, I think at that time, I remember being sent to this place, and they wanted to check me in for treatment and me saying, Well, I can't because I'm going to start a film. And they said, What's more important to you, the film or your life? And I said, The film. Because that was my only sense of self and value. And so the incredible gift, I really feel like it was divine intervention, is that by them sticking their neck out for me to stay in the film under the circumstances, gave me something more than me to want to... And in a certain way, it was my fear. It was my fear of losing this thing that I was pursuing that really meant everything at that moment. I didn't have enough of myself to do it for me. And I think it really kept me sober. But I wanted just clarify, just so that I'm being transparent. I I did step out. I did a detour, and I had almost 20 years of sobriety. I had a detour, and now I have over 12 years. And the detour, I think I was really young when I got sober.

I was not yet 22. And I think as much as there's one part that says, boy, it would have been nice not to have to open that door, but it solidified without any question for me which path I wanted to take.

Was it hard to get sober again?

I think when you have that much time and you open the door, it's difficult because there's a part of you that feels like you knew better.

And so that you want to prove that you can manage it.

And managing it is just not in my makeup. It's not in my chemical response to alcohol, but I sure gave it a hell of a shot.

Okay, a few more questions, and then I will let you go. There have been reports of a Saint Alma's Fire reboot. True or not?

There are some discussions, yes. It's early, early stages, but from my understanding, I think pretty much everyone from the original cast is in or at least open and interested, which I think it would be really fun There was something... It was such an important time for us as young actors. When Andrew McCarthy just did the documentary, I was just in New York and went went to the screening and sat on a panel. Ali Sheedy was there, and I realized I hadn't seen her probably in, I don't know, almost 30 years. That was crazy. But yet, the feeling I had when I saw her, I felt my heart expand in that way because I think we were all just so young, and it was exciting, and this shift that was occurring in our industry of films being made about things that were happening in our lives. It just was just it. I don't know. So I think it would be really... It would be fun.

Something that stuck with me is that you said in our first conversation that there was a period in your life when you became almost agoraphobic and didn't want to leave your house because of the burdens of Fame. At this point, you've been famous for decades, and I'm wondering what your relationship to Fame is now.

Well, it's interesting. I'll give you an example. I think the time that I was talking about was feeling how I was experiencing and holding with being out on the street and paparazzi popping up. I felt that I was in a battle with them. My privacy was being invaded, and I felt unsafe. And what I realized is our bodies don't know the difference between a gun and a camera. All we know is we're being gone after. And so I hadn't really processed how to regulate that feeling somebody trying to take from me. Somebody was, in a sense, attacking me. And I feel like now my relationship with it is I experience it with ease and grace. Like yesterday, my daughter Our Scout and I were going to a friend's surprise birthday, and we were walking from the car where we parked, and out of nowhere, two guys popped up. And the difference is now I don't hold it as that they're taking anything from me, that I am under siege. And that doesn't mean I always like it. Did I like that they popped out of nowhere? But I don't. I don't know. That's the only part I can think of of Fame, because I guess in general, I don't think about it very much, actually.

Thank you so much. I've really, really enjoyed this. Thank you for being so open.

My pleasure. And really, well done. Bravo for the year. That's amazing.

Thank you. That's Dimmy Moore. The Substance opens in Theaters nationwide on September 20th. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia by ETup, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devon Yalkin. Our senior Booker is Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orm. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Ronan Borelli, nick Pitman, Jeffrey Miranda, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes. Com/theinterview, and you can email us anytime at theinterview@nytimes. Com. Times. Com. Next week, David talks with Sally Rooney about her new book, Intermezzo, and how she's thinking about her career after her early and meteoric successes. I don't feel myself thinking about my growth as an artist, if you will. I'm skeptical that you don't think about that. Yeah, no, I think it's fair to be skeptical. I think that there is a huge cultural fixation with novelty and growth, reinvention. I don't find that very interesting.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from the New York Times.