From the New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro. This isn't going to come as a news flash. Things feel fragile in America. And there is a broad consensus across parties and demographics that we are struggling to come together and face our many challenges, which is why when I heard about a new documentary about the Harvard political scientist, Robert Putnam, I knew I wanted to talk to him. Nearly three decades ago, Putnam became something pretty rare, a celebrity academic. In 1995, he published a groundbreaking paper called Bowling Alone, America's Declining Social Capital. In it, he used data from the previous few decades to prove that America was transforming from a nation of joiners to a nation of loners. We were going to church less, joining clubs at declining rates. And he warned that as As a result, we were losing trust in our fellow Americans and our institutions. That paper caught the attention of then President Bill Clinton, and before long, regular people couldn't stop talking about it either. Putnam expanded it into a selling book a few years later. For a moment, it seemed like his work might pull us back from this isolation highway we were all on.

We all know how that story unfolded. Putnam's now 83, and he's watched as we've become more divided, more lonely, and less confident about the way forward than ever before, even as the stakes only get higher. Here's my conversation with Robert Putnam. Dr. Putnam, your work is all about connection. So I'm wondering first, can you describe your own social life? I mean, what clubs are you in?

That's a really embarrassing question. I write about and talk about the importance of connections, of social capital, which is my jargon for connections and trust and so on. But my wife actually does it. She is actually the one who joins everything, who has been a tutor and a teacher and a terrific mother and an even better grandmother. We've got two kids and seven grandchildren. In the long run, her work is going to have a longer half-life than mine. I'm not just being modest because those kids are going to be around long after people have forgotten anything about this Putnam, the writer and author.

That's a long way of saying not many clubs, am I right? Right.

When I was a kid, I joined everything. There's a picture of my high school yearbook, and basically, there's nothing in my high school that I did not join, band and chorus and debate and even football and on and on. But as I've gotten older, I've gotten It's hard to go to club meetings when you're on the road all the time, and I am. That's the sad fact.

That's interesting to me because you're grappling with, I think, something that we all grapple with, which is how harried our lives are, how hard it is to actually find a meaningful connection. A big part of why I was interested in having this conversation with you is that when it comes to social connection, things feel bad right now. Do things feel bad to you, too?

Well, sure. I think we're at a really important turning point in American history. Of course, American history is full of turning points, but this is a pretty important one. What I wrote in Bowling Alone is even more relevant now. Why? Because what we've seen over the last 25 years since the book was published is a deepening and intensifying of that trend. We become more socially isolated, and we can see it in every facet of our lives. We can see it in the surgeon general's talk about loneliness. He's been talking about it relatively recently, and he's talking about the psychological state of being lonely. That's in in which there's not really deep, I mean, seriously deep political polarization. And if you'll allow me to get a little political, Trump-like figures in all of those countries. Okay, how about economic inequality? The degree to which we're unequal, it's true, is probably higher in America than anywhere else. But the trend in inequality, that is the growth of inequality over the last 35, 40 years, is completely non-unique to America. Okay, how about social isolation? There was a lot of debate once upon a time when bowling alone first came out. People said, Well, it's true in America, but it's not true here. But then there was a second wave, and almost everybody agrees that there has been in their country in the last 30 or 40 years, a growth in social isolation and loneliness. And indeed, some places have the government Department of Loneliness. I'm not even joking. Okay, now, how about is America uniquely individualistic? There was a guy who wandered around, a Frenchman, actually, who wandered around America in the 1830s, a guy named Alexis de Tocqueville.Yes. He wandered America in 1831 all over the country. He came away thinking the most interesting thing about America that he discovered was that it was incredibly communal. And he didn't know the word social capital, too bad for him, but he was talking about joining. People were always joining. However, he talked about, really incessantly, about how Americans were individualists. Now, how do you reconcile those two points? Is America individualistic or are we communitarian? He, in effect, said, There are ways in which Americans are both, and we even have a secret. He said, This is the secret to America. It's called self-interest rightly understood. And he said, It's because Americans, they do pursue their self interest, but they think about it in the long term. They think about, Well, in the short run, maybe I can gain by cheating somebody, but in the long run, that's bad for everybody. If everybody followed that practice, we'd be a poorer country. We're all better off if we all can cooperate.It reminds me of something I've covered a lot of natural disasters, among other things. Studies have shown that neighborhoods that have strong connections recover much more quickly from natural disasters than neighborhoods that don't. Exactly. The ones that have strong ties, they do better.Absolutely. I'm conscious of that. At this moment, I'm speaking to you from Cambridge, Mass, where we are lucky enough to have a very nice home right in Harvard Square, but we also have a very nice home up in New Hampshire. One of the reasons we boys, especially, were getting in trouble and causing the country trouble. And nowadays, It's exactly those loner males, younger loner males, who are drawn to white nationalism and violence. And so if I were talking to the President and said, How do we solve this problem of white nationalism and violence and in America? We have to begin early in life. That means thinking of new ways, not the Boy Scouts or whatever, because that's... But what did the Boy Scouts and those other groups do that was so neat? They combined something that was fun with moral indoctrination.A scout is trustful, the helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful. I could do this once.I love that you still remember most of it.All the boys and Why Generation rumored it? Because you had to. It was a pledge. A scout is trustworthy, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, brave, clean, and reverent. I got it. Now, some of that sounds a little… Thrifty sounds a little dated, but trustworthy, isn't that not wrong. We need somebody as bright as the people who invented those institutions. Now, for the 21st century, to think about something that's fun, that will actually be enjoyable for the kids, But also throw in a dose of character education.I want to end by asking you this. You've sounded frustrated with the lack of progress your work has led to. Why do you think it's been so hard to get people from reading your book and understanding your argument to actually doing something about it?I wish I knew the answer to that question. Obviously, I wish I knew the answer to that question. First of all, it's a tough problem. If this were an easy problem, somebody else would have fixed it. The fact that we're divided as a country, or at least think we're divided, makes it even harder to fix. But for the last 25 years, more than two-thirds of my time has not been spent doing research or writing books. I, first of all, ran something called the Suarro Seminar, which pride really hard to get smart people, both practitioners and intellectuals together to figure out these problems. We still couldn't crack the problem. But that was my try, and it didn't work. Then the other thing I spent a ton of time on, I've traveled Certainly every state and to hundreds of towns, big towns and little towns all across America. I'm probably, over those 25 years, hundreds of thousands of people I've personally spoken to. There are Some groups, largely around community foundations across America, that actually are now. They would tell you, they're following my agenda for trying to fix their communities who have spent a lot of their time over the last 20 years trying to do what I said they should do.Has that made a difference? I don't know. I may be hard-pressed to make the case. But believe me, I'm more aware than you are of my failures.That's Bob Putnam Join or Die. The documentary about his life and work is being shown at real-life in-person screenings across the country starting July 19th. See if one is happening near you at joinordiefilm. Com. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon and Nitsu Ababa, mixing by Affim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orm. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Bo Breslin, Sarah Lamate, Melanie Mason, Rory Rodriguez, Rory Walsh, Ronan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes. Com. Com/theinterview. You can also email us at theinterview@nytimes. Com. Next week, my co-host, David Markezi, speaks with the basketball superstar Joel Embiid, the head of the Paris Olympics.Growing up, I watched the Olympics. It was always about, I want to play. I want to be part of it. So that's been my dream. So to me, that was what matters the most, achieving my dreams.I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this this is the interview from the New York Times.

in which there's not really deep, I mean, seriously deep political polarization. And if you'll allow me to get a little political, Trump-like figures in all of those countries. Okay, how about economic inequality? The degree to which we're unequal, it's true, is probably higher in America than anywhere else. But the trend in inequality, that is the growth of inequality over the last 35, 40 years, is completely non-unique to America. Okay, how about social isolation? There was a lot of debate once upon a time when bowling alone first came out. People said, Well, it's true in America, but it's not true here. But then there was a second wave, and almost everybody agrees that there has been in their country in the last 30 or 40 years, a growth in social isolation and loneliness. And indeed, some places have the government Department of Loneliness. I'm not even joking. Okay, now, how about is America uniquely individualistic? There was a guy who wandered around, a Frenchman, actually, who wandered around America in the 1830s, a guy named Alexis de Tocqueville.

Yes. He wandered America in 1831 all over the country. He came away thinking the most interesting thing about America that he discovered was that it was incredibly communal. And he didn't know the word social capital, too bad for him, but he was talking about joining. People were always joining. However, he talked about, really incessantly, about how Americans were individualists. Now, how do you reconcile those two points? Is America individualistic or are we communitarian? He, in effect, said, There are ways in which Americans are both, and we even have a secret. He said, This is the secret to America. It's called self-interest rightly understood. And he said, It's because Americans, they do pursue their self interest, but they think about it in the long term. They think about, Well, in the short run, maybe I can gain by cheating somebody, but in the long run, that's bad for everybody. If everybody followed that practice, we'd be a poorer country. We're all better off if we all can cooperate.

It reminds me of something I've covered a lot of natural disasters, among other things. Studies have shown that neighborhoods that have strong connections recover much more quickly from natural disasters than neighborhoods that don't. Exactly. The ones that have strong ties, they do better.

Absolutely. I'm conscious of that. At this moment, I'm speaking to you from Cambridge, Mass, where we are lucky enough to have a very nice home right in Harvard Square, but we also have a very nice home up in New Hampshire. One of the reasons we boys, especially, were getting in trouble and causing the country trouble. And nowadays, It's exactly those loner males, younger loner males, who are drawn to white nationalism and violence. And so if I were talking to the President and said, How do we solve this problem of white nationalism and violence and in America? We have to begin early in life. That means thinking of new ways, not the Boy Scouts or whatever, because that's... But what did the Boy Scouts and those other groups do that was so neat? They combined something that was fun with moral indoctrination.A scout is trustful, the helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful. I could do this once.I love that you still remember most of it.All the boys and Why Generation rumored it? Because you had to. It was a pledge. A scout is trustworthy, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, brave, clean, and reverent. I got it. Now, some of that sounds a little… Thrifty sounds a little dated, but trustworthy, isn't that not wrong. We need somebody as bright as the people who invented those institutions. Now, for the 21st century, to think about something that's fun, that will actually be enjoyable for the kids, But also throw in a dose of character education.I want to end by asking you this. You've sounded frustrated with the lack of progress your work has led to. Why do you think it's been so hard to get people from reading your book and understanding your argument to actually doing something about it?I wish I knew the answer to that question. Obviously, I wish I knew the answer to that question. First of all, it's a tough problem. If this were an easy problem, somebody else would have fixed it. The fact that we're divided as a country, or at least think we're divided, makes it even harder to fix. But for the last 25 years, more than two-thirds of my time has not been spent doing research or writing books. I, first of all, ran something called the Suarro Seminar, which pride really hard to get smart people, both practitioners and intellectuals together to figure out these problems. We still couldn't crack the problem. But that was my try, and it didn't work. Then the other thing I spent a ton of time on, I've traveled Certainly every state and to hundreds of towns, big towns and little towns all across America. I'm probably, over those 25 years, hundreds of thousands of people I've personally spoken to. There are Some groups, largely around community foundations across America, that actually are now. They would tell you, they're following my agenda for trying to fix their communities who have spent a lot of their time over the last 20 years trying to do what I said they should do.Has that made a difference? I don't know. I may be hard-pressed to make the case. But believe me, I'm more aware than you are of my failures.That's Bob Putnam Join or Die. The documentary about his life and work is being shown at real-life in-person screenings across the country starting July 19th. See if one is happening near you at joinordiefilm. Com. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon and Nitsu Ababa, mixing by Affim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orm. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Bo Breslin, Sarah Lamate, Melanie Mason, Rory Rodriguez, Rory Walsh, Ronan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes. Com. Com/theinterview. You can also email us at theinterview@nytimes. Com. Next week, my co-host, David Markezi, speaks with the basketball superstar Joel Embiid, the head of the Paris Olympics.Growing up, I watched the Olympics. It was always about, I want to play. I want to be part of it. So that's been my dream. So to me, that was what matters the most, achieving my dreams.I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this this is the interview from the New York Times.

boys, especially, were getting in trouble and causing the country trouble. And nowadays, It's exactly those loner males, younger loner males, who are drawn to white nationalism and violence. And so if I were talking to the President and said, How do we solve this problem of white nationalism and violence and in America? We have to begin early in life. That means thinking of new ways, not the Boy Scouts or whatever, because that's... But what did the Boy Scouts and those other groups do that was so neat? They combined something that was fun with moral indoctrination.

A scout is trustful, the helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful. I could do this once.

I love that you still remember most of it.

All the boys and Why Generation rumored it? Because you had to. It was a pledge. A scout is trustworthy, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, brave, clean, and reverent. I got it. Now, some of that sounds a little… Thrifty sounds a little dated, but trustworthy, isn't that not wrong. We need somebody as bright as the people who invented those institutions. Now, for the 21st century, to think about something that's fun, that will actually be enjoyable for the kids, But also throw in a dose of character education.

I want to end by asking you this. You've sounded frustrated with the lack of progress your work has led to. Why do you think it's been so hard to get people from reading your book and understanding your argument to actually doing something about it?

I wish I knew the answer to that question. Obviously, I wish I knew the answer to that question. First of all, it's a tough problem. If this were an easy problem, somebody else would have fixed it. The fact that we're divided as a country, or at least think we're divided, makes it even harder to fix. But for the last 25 years, more than two-thirds of my time has not been spent doing research or writing books. I, first of all, ran something called the Suarro Seminar, which pride really hard to get smart people, both practitioners and intellectuals together to figure out these problems. We still couldn't crack the problem. But that was my try, and it didn't work. Then the other thing I spent a ton of time on, I've traveled Certainly every state and to hundreds of towns, big towns and little towns all across America. I'm probably, over those 25 years, hundreds of thousands of people I've personally spoken to. There are Some groups, largely around community foundations across America, that actually are now. They would tell you, they're following my agenda for trying to fix their communities who have spent a lot of their time over the last 20 years trying to do what I said they should do.

Has that made a difference? I don't know. I may be hard-pressed to make the case. But believe me, I'm more aware than you are of my failures.

That's Bob Putnam Join or Die. The documentary about his life and work is being shown at real-life in-person screenings across the country starting July 19th. See if one is happening near you at joinordiefilm. Com. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon and Nitsu Ababa, mixing by Affim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orm. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Bo Breslin, Sarah Lamate, Melanie Mason, Rory Rodriguez, Rory Walsh, Ronan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes. Com. Com/theinterview. You can also email us at theinterview@nytimes. Com. Next week, my co-host, David Markezi, speaks with the basketball superstar Joel Embiid, the head of the Paris Olympics.

Growing up, I watched the Olympics. It was always about, I want to play. I want to be part of it. So that's been my dream. So to me, that was what matters the most, achieving my dreams.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this this is the interview from the New York Times.