Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're to find out what this sound is.

The amount of sports analogies in my Twitter mentions last night of people being like, wow, you really almost bucknered that.

Whole thing right after this ad you're.

Listening to DraftKings Network.

Part of this, I imagine, is that what we'll do is that Dan did not watch and Dan will learn what happened.

Oh, Dan has not watched?

I don't think so.

Oh, yeah, because I saw him text that he wasn't watching.

I feel like he was asleep by that. Uh, but I don't know, maybe he has. Maybe he's caught up.

I doubt it. I highly doubt it.

Welcome to highly questionable. I'm Dan Levittard. That's Pablo Torre and Katie Nolan. They're talking about me behind my back before we started. We didn't know you were here.

That's not fair. Well, they're talking about how you go to sleep at like, 04:00 p.m. Now, which is fine.

That's dinner. No, dinner is at 04:00 p.m.. Yeah, and then I need my digestive tract to rest, and then I go to sleep about eight or nine, I'd imagine.

You like a bow constrictor. Yeah. It's just slowly you see, like the cartoon refrigerator making its way through the outline of your body over time. What Dan does not fully appreciate is that Katie Nolan finally can talk about what feels like the greatest night in your life. I don't know.

Where are we?

Hyperbolically?

No, it's up there. It was fun. It was fun. Should I say what it is? Are you going to say I feel.

Like we have to say it. That you are we're talking Dan to a celebrity Jeopardy semi finalist. Now look at that.

She's beaming. This is sheer radiance on her. I would think fun, you can say now. I would imagine terror beforehand. No, like, that's not fun. From the very start, that only became fun when you were crushing it.

Yeah, it was very scary. I watch Jeopardy every night, and I feel like a big part of it was like how I started. So when I got out there and it was like the first question, I was like, you got to set the tone. You're either going to be good at this or you're going to suck at this. And the rehearsal that they give you right before goes so fast. And I could not get the buzzer, and the questions were really hard and it psyched me out. And then I got out there and then you saw if you did see Dan, maybe you didn't.

This is what I if I may, Katie, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but all I know is that I came in this morning and on my television and it legitimately made me smile happy watching my television to see that the Golicks were talking on their Draft King show about you. I couldn't hear. The sound was not up, but I saw a giant money total where you were and also making me smile. $75 from the person next to you. I didn't see a third person. I just saw you had some giant amount of money, like $17,000, and then the person next to you had $75.

Shout out Sherry Shepherd, the absolute sweetest woman on the planet.

But that third person a big you to them. Spoiler alert. Hold on. We got to explain what made me smile while I was watching Celebrity Jeopardy. And it was a text that I got from a friend of mine, Michael Cruz Kane, who's a writer for Cobert. And he said this, quote, I didn't think you had the ability to do that, but I do deserve it. What Michael Cruz Kane texted me was, quote, what your girl Katie Nolan is doing on Celebrity Jeopardy. Right now is unkind because this dan. This is how this episode of Celebrity Jeopardy. Got going.

Chef Jamie Oliver's website says that if you use lamb instead of beef for cottage pie, it should go by this occupational name.

Katie, what is shepherd's pie?

You got it.

I did. Katie, what is a leo?

Correct.

E. Katie, again, what is a levee?

My Chevy to the levee. Yes. Katie.

What is Volvo?

That's correct.

Katie, what is dalmatian?

That's it.

Katie, what is a kiwi?

Yes, it is.

Katie, what is Vatican City?

Right again.

Katie, what is scrub Daddy seem very happy about? I have a personal connection to Scrub Daddy. It just makes me very happy.

Oh, my God. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I am watching televised cartoon confidence muscles grow. Look at her body language. She goes from whatever the darkness was of fear to oh, I got this, surprising herself. And then you can just see her gather strength.

And I mean this so sincerely. It felt like I was watching an athlete. She's in the zone.

Yes. She's going to hit eleven straight shots.

Feeling it. In fact, it felt more specifically like watching an NBA player in a celebrity basketball game. Like, this person should not be this is not even better, though, for Dorks.

It's the greatest thing. She's in the brain zone. She's not just in a zone. She's in a zone where she's showing everybody that she's kicking ass at being smart or and I don't have context for this. The other celebrities were terrible.

No, they weren't. Christopher Maloney, a former Jeopardy. Champion. Former celebrity Jeopardy. Champion Christopher Maloney from Law and Order.

Christopher Maloney and Sherry Shepard. You'll notice in that montage, if you're watching on the DraftKings network or on YouTube, that their totals don't really go up at all.

The first round was rough.

Yours, though, it felt like watching an adult play video games against children.

And here's the thing. They probably felt that way celebrity wise. They were probably like, we are so famous, and who is this woman? I truly think that my whole career has been just to get famous enough so I can go on Jeopardy. Without having to take the test. And that's what I did.

I got to be honest. I didn't think any of us were famous enough to be on Celebrity Jeopardy. I don't think of myself as someone who is famous enough to be on Celebrity Jeopardy.

Me neither. And I was. And I still don't.

I can't tell if what Katie did means that they want to invite more such people who are really good at Jeopardy. Even if they're over indexing on the scale and under indexing on the Q rating, because at some point it got uncomfortable for me to watch.

No way.

Because of this, as Charles Darwin could tell you, to do this is to gradually change or develop over time.

Sherry, what is evolution?

Sorry. No, katie, what is evolved?

Evolve. That's part of evolution. Is this how we starting it all?

I don't want you to be mad.

Okay. All right. I'm with you. Demenums for 500, please.

It's how you might refer to a resident of Tirana, a capital city near the Adriatic coast, or to a resident of New York's state capital. Christopher, what is Albania? Albany. I'm sorry. No. Sherry or Katie? Katie.

What is in Albanian? You know what? If I need this money later, if I'm not doing well later, I like you a boss lady, but I like you both so much.

You got to watch your mouth around her. She's listening to everything you two say.

This means so much to me.

She was dead.

She was apologizing while for taking their money, for winning. And I'm sitting there, and I still don't know what a demenym is.

I don't either, to be quite honest.

It was just like I've always watched Jeopardy. And been like, oh, I feel bad for when somebody buzes in and they get it, but they don't phrase it right. Or they get it, but they don't use the form of a question. And then somebody buzzes in right after them and gets I wouldn't have gotten Albanian without his help, without his incompetence. You needed his incompetence.

You had to feel like the universe, the cosmos were just lobbing. Lobs to you, where I don't know the answer, but these pitiful fools are going to give me the answer by.

Playing poor ron celebrities.

No, they were so nice. I want to be clear. They were so nice, and I really, truly love them. I don't know if they love me, but I really did like them. I accidentally called Christopher Chris when I met him, and I was, like, very embarrassed because he was like, it's Christopher.

Well, what happened next in this emotional roller coaster took a dark turn for Christopher Maloney, because I want you to watch Christopher Maloney's face in these next couple of moments. Just zoom in as everyone else is celebrating. Katie Nolan and detective Stabler doing his investigative report.

You're doing an investigative report on this man's face.

Tell us about your charity, Katie.

Oh, yeah. I'm playing for the association of Women in Sports Media, which I am a woman in sports media. But we need more sports media is still, like, 80% male. So AWSM has campus chapters. They have a scholarship program, mentorship, networking events, just to try to bring more women and more unique voices into sports media.

That's fantastic.

Absolutely. Applaud. Applaud.

Applaud nothing.

Again. Dan watch.

Go slow on his face. He's got no time. He doesn't look like he wants women sports media.

What is gaslighting?

That's the word. Yes.

Christopher Bologna refusing to clap for women in sports media and then for your successful daily double did not feel accidental.

So he was two people away from me. And so during the actual taping, I did not pick up on how mad his energy was. I don't know if he was mad.

He was hostile.

He seemed pretty mad.

I don't know.

Watching it back last night, I was like, oh, he's mad.

I don't know if it's mad or hostile, but I will say, I can say without a word spoken that he is both not for women in the media and pro gaslighting. It felt like that's how it felt like to me.

But the climax of this episode, and it is, in so many senses a climactic thing, is Katie Nolan. Dan katie Nolan has more than twice as much money as the second place contestant Christopher Maloney as established. And then Final Jeopardy. Begins.

What happens here?

Everything.

Don't mess with Texas. Sam Houston's troops shouted this three word battle cry while attacking Santa Ana's army at San Jacinto. 30 seconds, players. Good luck. Christopher Maloney was in second place with 8800. He wrote down what is remember the Alamo? Yes. That's the slogan. Your wager. Wagered it all. You have $17,600. Now, Katie Nolan had that big lead. Did she have Remember the Alamo?

I did.

She did. Now, math not your favorite part of the game.

Oh, no.

You just had to wager more than 3500 and you're a exactly christopher and Katie are exactly tied. And we're going to be going to a tiebreaker. Clues.

No.

Katie, Christopher, pick up your signaling devices. I'm going to read a single category and clue. The first one of you to buz in with the correct response is our winner and our semi finalist. But I do need a correct response. Your category is french history. And here's the clue. Drink up. A famous New Orleans street is named after this dynasty that ruled France for most of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Katie, what is bourbon?

It is bourbon.

In your face.

So what you're watching, and you got to watch this on YouTube or the DraftKings network, is Christopher Maloney and Katie Nolan, both arriving at the same exact total, $17,600. Going to a sudden death. Clue off. And Katie celebrating like she just won.

The fucking super a magic carpet ride. Katie I couldn't have written that up better if I was trying to write script writing on have her foul it up. Here the whole thing at the end with her bad math and then at the end, still club that stoic misery over there. Christopher still club him in the face at the end with one final indignity. What a championship effort by you.

Thank you so much.

I want to do what Christopher Maloney refused to do and clap.

Thank you so much.

What he was too busy doing, though, katie, as we humiliate you by celebrating you, dan this is what Christopher Maloney if we're going to zoom in on that pivotal moment when he saw his life flash before his eyes, this is what he was trying to do. This is the video of him desperately trying to buz in to the point that it looks like he's actively masturbating. I mean, it looks like is he adjusting his jacket? Is he jacking off? No.

Let me see that again. I thought he was angry and pulling.

On the sleeve of such a generous read. This is a man who thinks he has the answer and is desperately trying.

I mean, he has the answer. It was an easy question. He has the answer.

But you were so close to blowing the 28 to three lead. You were so close to embodying the.

Amount of sports analogies in my twitter mentions last night of people being like, wow, you really almost bucknered that whole thing.

Pablo, do you realize that if she had, we wouldn't be able to have any fun with this? Because if she'd be ravaging her feet.

Today, I'd be at home. I would not be here. You guys are not paying me. I would be at home. I would have slept in today and kept the blinds.

That would have been like a lifetime regret to get your math wrong. To get your math wrong. It would have gone to echoing shame and laughter.

So close. I haven't been able to tell this story yet. I don't know if it's like this in regular jeopardy. But when they go to commercial and they say, here's the final jeopardy. Category. Make your wagers, we'll be right back, they brought out paper and a pen and they were like, you can check your math, you can whatever, and then you got to put in your wager. So I do the math because my dad and I had watched a celebrity jeopardy. Like, right before I went, and he was like, just take what they double theirs and then see what the difference is between yours and what theirs doubled could be. And that's the number you got to beat. I did all that and I double and triple checked that I got that number right and I forgot that you then also have to add one. We had seen somebody who did that, but they got the question wrong and they ended up losing enough money that when they lost that money, the other person's double was higher than their. So I was, like, overthinking that part because it was like rallying cries. And I was like, I don't actually know if I know any rally and cries, so I'm afraid to risk more than I need to.

Which is why I did exactly 3500. Which, again, I know now is not correct, but is why I didn't round up to, like, 4000 because I wasn't feeling that confident about the clue itself. Then we are done. They take away the papers. I actually said out loud, can somebody check my math? I was like, Can I get somebody else to check my math? And they said no.

Can I get a non celebrity to check this math?

So then they're like, okay. Three, two, one. And Ken says, welcome back to Jeopardy. And I think he flubbed a line or something. They had to redo the intro. In that moment, I realized, oh, no, what had happened? And we were about to retape, and I almost said, Can I change my wager before we go, before we start? Because I'm like, integrity wise. Because they give you this big speech before you go out there. There's like a game show cop who comes over and tells you, like, there's.

A game show christopher Maloney.

Well, so Christopher Maloney got really buddy buddy with him. And I was like, man, you love, huh? But he came over and he was like, these are the rules of the game. You are entitled to know the rules of the game. If at any point in the game you feel the rules have not been explained to you, you can stop and ask for rules, and they will be re. So they were very serious about the integrity of it. And in my head, I'm like, well, we're retaped. We're starting over, and no clue has been revealed. Nothing has happened. Can I just change it? But I chickened out, and I didn't ask. So then that whole block where everybody's saying their answers, once I found out, I think you can actually hear it when Christopher Maloney gets it right, I think I whispered, because I think that's when I realized I, too, got it right and we are going to overtime. Like, I knew right away that I'm a big, dumb idiot. And then what they don't show is that there's a break while they have to prepare the overtime. So it was, like, quite a significant amount of time of sitting there stewing in the fact that I just blew it and that it was all over for me.

But there was a point where and if I may sports this up, there was a point where I was standing there cursing myself, being like, how could you do this? You were in the lead the whole time. You ruined the whole thing. And then I was like, look, you could still win. You could still win. There's still a chance you could win. And nobody has ever won something after giving themselves this pep talk of like, you suck. You blew it. And so I was like, you're okay. You've done really, really well. You made a dumb mistake, but now you're going to redeem yourself and everything's going to be fine. And I had Sherry Shepherd being like, it's okay. It's all right. I would have done the same thing. So it ended up being fine. But that's why shout out to Sherry shepherd. I know she didn't have the showing she probably wanted on celebrity Jeopardy.

But if $75.

She was a very sweet all right.

Shout out to you $75.

And as always, a big you to stabler.

No, I wanted him to like me so bad and boy, did I blow it. He did not.

Yeah, you found out.

I know. Katie nolan found out. He found out hard.

What is next for you?

So next is the semifinal. So it'll be three people who did what I did. So air episode and then we meet in the semifinals. And then from there, one person will then go on to the final which will be against two other people who made the same journey up a different side of the bracket.

Damn.

I do not know when it airs yet, but it has been taped and I cannot say any more than it's. This is the coolest. I know people are probably like, all right, katie's been on everything talking about this, but this is my peak, so thank you for letting me talk about it. I brought a story, but I guess we won't even talk about it. I wanted to talk about baseball, but no, I guess we can talk about celebrity.

No, we can do baseball if you want.

No.

Completely kidding. Completely kidding. This is the only reason I came. I don't even know what stories you guys brought. I'm going to find out together with you.

I think in keeping with the theme of how one takes a massive mountain.

Of success oh, no.

And jeopardizes all of it. Dan, do you want to go next?

Yes. Because I did not do this purposely to bother Katie, but I am fascinated by what is going on in New England because you get to that level of success where you have spoiled your fan base with 20 years of unprecedented football triumph. Like, I just can't imagine the excellence that the patriots have gotten used to. So they now have to endure what is Mac Jones and a couple of losses here that are so painful that they disgrace and embarrass Bill Belichick and have people now tarnishing all of his past saying Tom Brady is responsible for it? Because as soon as Tom Brady not only goes to Tampa, but then goes through the gauntlet without Belichick of the quarterbacks, Drew Brees, Aaron Rogers and Patrick Mahomes to win a title without Bill Belichick, all of a sudden the either or game that we play on credit and blame makes Bill Belichick look pretty mediocre with a sub 500 record after Tom Brady. And so I ask you, Katie, what's fair criticism of Belichick when you've got a Boston radio host firing him after two games?

Shocking.

You've got.

Dan. It's not just the gas bags that we think of as gas bags, by the way. Our very smart friend Dominique Foxworth said.

I'm happy about all of this because sometimes you get a little arrogant and you got to learn from a little discomfort. So I'm happy for Bill Belichick because now he's learning. Not only can you not substitute anybody in to be a coordinator or quarterback, and not only can you rely on your defensive acumen to strengthen your team throughout the course of this season, at some point you got to accept that you're not a genius.

Not a genius.

Yeah, look, I'm not a coaching genius either, so I can't really critique it from that level of understanding. I just feel like we are so in sports media, quick to be like, he's the greatest, or he sucks and has no talent, and we never are very good at this. In between of like, there's a lot of factors that go into this. It was crazy to me when Brady left and everybody's like, we're going to see if it was Brady or if it was what it was probably both. It was probably both of them. It was probably a combination of the two. And, yes, they're separate. And, I mean, nobody's saying Tom I mean, people were saying Tom Brady wasn't talented, but nobody's saying it now. And I just feel like there's, again, a lot of factors that go into this. But I do want to be clear. As a Patriots fan, I understand we've earned this part. I understand this is the part where you're like, okay, you can't just love watching your team play football every weekend. Sometimes it's going to absolutely suck. Now I forgot that it sucks this bad.

34 to zero to the Saints. 38 to three to the Cowboys.

But it hasn't. Katie, in your lifetime as a sports fan, the Patriots haven't sucked like that. Like, that's what Tom Brady and Bill Belichick bought you. It's been 20 years, correct?

Yeah. And I'm only 20, so I've never seen that.

I'm just saying, when were the Patriots the last two games that the Patriots have played? I think a generation has not seen the Patriots ever play those two games.

Right. And I feel like if you are that generation and you see those two games and you go like, screw this team, fire the coach, you're an idiot, because I just think that that's not how it works. It ebbs and it flows. And even if you think Bill Belichick isn't a genius, I would love you to point out who you're going to get to coach the team that's going to be better than Bill Belichick that is currently available.

When you get to any point in football where you start believing that you're that much smarter or that much better than everyone else, you can be humbled by the sport in a variety of ways, especially as you age and young people come for your crown. So in that sport, you've got so many young coaches where the technical advantages are obvious. Pablo, on offense, with McVeigh. With McDaniel, you can watch on offense, and you're like, holy, they've got a schematic advantage. But I do believe in football, defense is so hard for the common person to understand. And what Belichick does every week and taking away your most important thing, which no one else in the sport can do, ignores that two of those championships, one of them well, I mean, Rams fans have to hate Belichick. Rams fans will never relinquish that Bill Belichick is a genius because the greatest show on turf, the greatest team they've ever had in St. Louis, was stopped by not just Belichick, but a Tom Brady who had thrown one touchdown pass that entire postseason. Belichick won that title, and it was one of the greatest upsets we have ever seen with a quarterback who was not yet ready, and then 13 to three in the Super Bowl.

That offensive. McVeigh was very good, and he held it to three points. Like, two of the titles there were won by Belichick. And for some reason, because we can't explain it, because we don't know how he stops those things, we're not sophisticated enough that genius gets forgotten because we can't explain it.

Well, this is the bigger story to me. And it's not just about wanting to rub salt in Katie's wounds as a Patriots fan. It's about actually talking about what it means for genius to be conditional like this. When you declare someone a genius after 20 years of clear, unambiguous genius behavior, what does it take for us to take it back?

Two game.

Right mistake. Two game, huge mistake.

So before, right? Like the stuff that dan's alluding to defensively. Like, Bill Belichick is the genius who had pioneered the Three Four defense. And it got so popular because everyone was copying him that he switched back to the Four Three because those interior alignment that he had mastered and figured out, now everybody was trying to copy him. The idea of, like, you know, these seemingly slow, white possession receivers, like, I want all of them. And now that now that's everywhere, right, everybody knows what that advantage was. So he's not moneyballing the way he used to be. Those competitive sort of strategic insights aren't as tight end.

Like, it tight ends down the seam, tight end, giant basketball players running down the seam to make it easier for your quarterback.

And all of that is to say, leaving, like, the football nerdery of this aside, because I'm no coaching anything either. The idea is what job allows someone to have that degree of success and then kicks them off stage like this? So cruelly, right? Is sports the ultimate example of that? Can we relate to any of what we're seeing with this guy? Because I would imagine it really must be infuriating.

Oh, my God.

For Bill Belichick to have to hear.

Himself to somebody like, look at what I did.

It's cruel for genius to be that conditional. It is cruel for genius to evaporate that quickly week to week. But he's had a couple of years, Pablo, and it doesn't help him at all that as soon as Tom Brady left, he went and took over a team where James Winston had them seven and nine because he threw 30 interceptions. And then, as I said, tom Brady without belichick, goes through breeze Rogers, Anne mahomes, I think all of those on the road. Right. Come on. Come on.

And by the way, Katie, he's also the GM.

Yeah.

And so it feels like people generally you don't want him to be the GM anymore, do you?

I think that bill should do whatever.

This is the behavior of a person who actually feels like if you emotionally connect, you owe him something.

Yeah. In Bill. We trust. I just have just that ingrained into my in Bill we trust. I assume he knows better than I do and I just let him in football. Let me just be clear.

Not in celebrity jeopardy.

No, I think I could take him.

You would kick I don't think he.

Is a shade of red.

He thinks demenym is a.

I don't it's hard for me to who the hell am I to sit here and criticize bill Belichick is what's happening.

I'm with Katie on this part of it, right. Because I'm going through this in Miami, right. Like, I was just having this conversation with Mike Ryan, who feels after 20 years of Pat Riley making the heat matter, the way he made the Knicks matter, the way that he made the Lakers matter, they're fed up because right.

No, you're going through that with him. Exactly.

But I'm going through it from this angle, right. Because people are coming at me and like, dan, you're not going to criticize anything about Riley. And I'm like, look, at some point I have to say that somebody obviously has a level of expertise over what they're doing that is above my critique. It's above my pay grade. He obviously knows belichick and Riley clearly know something about sports leadership that I am not sophisticated enough, smart enough, worthy enough to do too much questioning of because they've done it so long that they can know more than I do. I'm with Katie on this. I'm not so arrogant. And I could be pretty arrogant about know it all. I am not so arrogant that I would think that I can criticize these people. My. Guess is that their process is usually pretty good, and sometimes the results aren't. And I have to trust their process because they care more and know more about their process than I do.

Yeah. I am glad that we finally arrived at the fact that we all need to trust the process.

Oh, my God.

You would I mean, you would so.

Lame that that's where you look. I'm talking about Belichick and Riley. You're talking about? Sam hankey. Your process is so not trustworthy.

He would kill Celebrity Jeopardy.

You think?

You think he would lose? I'd be calling him $75.

Oh, shout out Cherry Shepard.

So what I brought to the discussion today is an interview I saw with Patrick Stewart. And I don't know if you guys appreciate the legacy, the institution that is Patrick Stewart, but one of our great actors truly like what I imagine when I think of, like, classy, older British gentlemen. And what he said in this interview with Esquire was this quote, if I had started therapy earlier, it would have benefited me sooner. Now I'm no longer afraid of talking about my childhood, end quote. And I bring this to you not because I want to plumb the depths of Patrick Stewart's childhood, but because I feel like my grand Hypocrisy in 2023 is that I know all of the upside from friends, family members of therapy, and I have not gone. And I'm constantly sort of calibrating, like, am I fooling myself into thinking that I'm the one who doesn't need to go? Even as I recommend to everybody, like, trust me, this is a thing that is so helpful. And so what I want to find out from you guys is when I say a quote like that from Patrick Stewart, how do you hear it?

Because I know both of you guys have personal experiences that I don't want to be too invasive about, asking you to share.

Who's going first?

I'm happy to. I don't mind this level of vulnerability. I found therapy hugely, hugely useful. I don't know in this case whether I would make it about parents and upbringing, although that's part of it. I would say the greatest tool that it has given me is an awareness or more of an awareness of my blind spots and where I have to be forgiving of myself. What led me to therapy was traumatic enough that I will tell you this story. I don't think I've told this story before. So my father loses his job, and he's a Cuban exile, and his whole identity is tied up in the idea of work. And work is what will get you to freedom. It's the most important thing. He loses his job, and he has a breakdown, like, just a total breakdown. On a cruise with my mother, that was meant. I was happy. I was so happy. Dad, you're retired. I gave them the cruise so that he would sail into the next part of his life and he had a breakdown on the cruise ship. And when they come back, I have to go to see him in what is an asylum.

And at the time I'm going to see him, somebody is clucking like a chicken in the corner and it's a place that's scary to me. And my mother passes out in his arms as we're getting there. And so the trauma of that was such that I'm like, okay, I've got to analyze everything. I'm in charge here of whatever this delicate family balance is here, and I've got to reach adulthood. And I've got to do some things that examine because I don't think a lot of people go to therapy just because they're looking for self improvement. In fact, Pablo, I don't know that how you feel about your life or your balance or your general happiness. I think something would have to go wrong generally or not feel right to push someone into that. Otherwise they think they got it figured out. But so the last 15 years and I've been rigorous about finding the right people to do this with, I have found that having that vulnerability and the ability to place it somewhere helps me just with an assortment of tools that, among other things, help me be more forgiving of myself and give me some awareness in places where I could have used it that make me more adult.

I can completely relate to what you said about I'm always talking about the benefits of it, but am not going to it. Am I convincing myself that I'm the one who doesn't need it for me? Obviously, I have a close relationship with Dan and his therapy, which has been life changing for him, obviously his life, as I've said before, my Dan sorry, my Dan's. I just hate having to say my Dan, and I also hate having to say my fiance. So it's just like the Dan that I is the context. Not this Dan, but he's had a very difficult life with a lot of obvious trauma, and I say obvious trauma because people have died in his childhood that I did not experience.

And he's talked about this on stage.

And therapy has helped him understand that, understand his relationships with family members that he can't currently still work on. They're no longer with us. I have had therapists in the past, good and bad, and currently in this period of time where I am obviously in need of a therapist. Still feel like have felt I should say still have felt like well, my biggest problem that I need help with therapy for is I feel like I got to do it all myself. And the hardest part of that is that you have to ask for help to get the help, to teach you how to ask for help. And it feels impossible to me because it's oh, no, no, I can figure it out. I will get a therapist. Once I blank, I keep putting off the like, we've talked about this a little bit on your show, Dan. This Dan current Dan, about how I've put off the process of finding a therapist because I'm, first of all, terrified of finding a therapist that I don't match with, and people should know that that does happen.

Right? Well, that's one of my questions, is just like, the matchmaking part of it.

It sucks. It's the worst part. It's dating without any of the benefits. It's like, let me throw all of my baggage at a person and see how they handle it. And you also have to be self aware enough to be like, am I rejecting this? Because it's helpful to me? Are they actually right? And I need to hear this. And so there's a lot of that that goes into it, but I think there are a lot of people who go to therapy, they don't like their therapist, and then they write off therapy. And if you're one of those people, I'm not judging you because I've been one of those people, but you got to just push through it. And so I now am very happy to say I'm at the point where I have identified the person I'm going to reach out to to be my therapist, and now I just have to force myself to sit down and reach out to that person. And so it's like, anything if you're like me and you feel like you have to fix all your problems, you don't. And you can just ask for help. And guess what?

If it doesn't go well, you can stop doing that and then do it again a different way. It just feels like everything I do, I'm always like, this has to be the greatest thing I've ever done, instead of just like, just go talk to a person about all the things you feel.

That part is the part that I know I benefit from socially. And this is not a substitute for therapy, this segment? No, but I sense the value of talking about stuff to other human beings, like that most basic tool, Dan, of like, you cannot internal monolog your way to where you want to be when you're dealing with what's hard in your life. And so when it comes to the toolkit right. You referenced, Dan, the tools that you did not have that now you have. What does that mean? Not I don't want to turn this into commercial for therapy as a concept. I don't think that's needed. But I am curious, Dan, what practically you have found to be useful in that toolkit?

When Katie says something looks to her like a mountain that is too big or scary to move. I recognize that because without getting into the specifics of it, I would just say that more generally, when I have had those kinds of problems that I bring into therapy, I am always surprised when you remove my blind spots, my lack of awareness about the things that shape me, how helpful it is if I have someone, anyone, never mind a therapist with expertise, but if I have anyone that I trust with whom I am sharing intimacy that I can trust with that intimacy, to be careful with it and to be someone I am paying to help me fix whatever it is that I feel needs to have some aid, I found those mountains move a lot easier when I have the help of someone than when I am covered in my own shame or reluctance to actually approach the thing. Because I'm like, this is too messy. I can't handle this. Why would I even start? It's a messy room. I don't even know where to start cleaning up. I'm not going to get any momentum here.

And so I'm defeated before I even start. But if you build on a relationship, and I will say it again any relationship with someone that you trust and you are sharing intimacies if that person has some expertise about you, never mind about therapy or psychoanalysis or the damages your parents did if I'm giving them a data bank on here. Here's this information about me can you help me? With all the things that I do to neuter myself or sabotage myself or where I'm unkind, can you help me? Intimacy with someone you trust is the most beautiful and helpful thing when they can help you. And so I finally gotten man, my therapist was next to my brother's deathbed with me, like, holding my hand and his yeah. Wherever it is that I was scared of, that I can assure everyone listening to this that it's.

Right. Right. Katie something that I think about all of the am. I had a segue loaded up.

I know. I was like, we're going to get through it. It's okay.

Damn it. I had a transition.

It's gone. So I didn't have any experience with that either, though.

Right.

So I arrive at grief and I'm lost. Like, just totally lost, but on that.

Dan right. Like, the idea of therapy as preventative or reactive, how do you see it? Right? Because it seems like it prepared you on some level for something that still you had to kind of figure out.

It's just okay. There's no shame in needing help, man. There's no shame in asking for it, in needing it. We handcuff ourselves a lot. I mean, the real intimacy is being able to ask for it, receiving it. And then from there, you can find what love, trust, the greatest touchstones to living that allow you to feel the deepest things.

But in terms of the self consciousness about like, is this about my parents? Am I a cliche? I do wonder if there is some relief in realizing that your story is a familiar story.

There has to be because that content is all over social media. That's TikTok. I always am getting videos where someone's like, does this happen to anybody else? And the comments are all like, oh, my God. It's so nice to know that's connected to this. And I have this. It's like, people do want to understand. I think people do want to understand themselves better. And I think once you do and you realize, I mean, I can speak to it specifically from I have Add. I was diagnosed late in life. I really would have changed the game for me if I was diagnosed earlier, because as you guys now know, I'm not dumb. I'm pretty smart, but I've got some problems. Like, there were some moments in Celebrity Jeopardy that I just watching it back. Last night, I'm like, I wasn't listening when that clue was read. I was in my own head thinking about something else that had happened. I was very distracted, but so I was diagnosed later in life, and there are things I didn't know at all were related, because they're not the cliche Add things. They're not like, oh, plastic bag. But, like, constantly being late to stuff.

My therapist was like, yeah, this is all the same thing. You cannot manage your time. You suck at it. She's like, you can't just hope one day you're going to wake up and know how to manage time. You have to take active steps. And here are some suggestions based off of people I've worked with who have this same thing that's happening to you, happening to them. Here are three tried and true ways you can do this, and here's how to have the conversation with your loved ones so that they don't think you're just lying and you don't want to be on time for anything. Here's how to manage this professionally. And they give you those tools. And so I think when you find out you're a cliche, there is that moment of like, oh, I'm not unique. I'm not an original butterfly. And then you realize that's what life is about. Life is learning that you are not original. You are not that special. I know we're told that as children, because it means that we're supposed to encourage self love. As a child, you want to tell a child that they need to love themselves, but at the end of the day, we're all just people.

And that's what I think therapy is good at showing you, is that you are not so special and unique. That this problem you have, that you're like, no one could possibly solve this for me. Somebody can solve that for you. You just have to admit that this is a thing that happens, and it's a thing I have to deal with. And this is partially me giving myself that pep talk right now. Just go. Just go.

But it is interesting what you say, though, Katie, because it doesn't have to be as pejorative as I'm such a cliche. It can just be if I need my car fixed, I go to a mechanic who has seen 100 such cars. If I need a doctor, I go to a surgeon who's done a hundred of these surgeries.

Or you do your own research, right?

Yes.

You can just do it for yourself.

I'm going to google it.

Reddit's got this.

Just Google YouTube. You know what YouTube it YouTube self help. And just see if somebody is in his garage giving you the advice you need to untangle why it is your edible complex. Edible? I made it edible. Your edible complex with your mother is problematic.

I think all of us, it's safe to say, have an edible complex.

Wink. Wink.

Is that a fat joke? Wink.

Not one.

I thought it was a weed joke.

Well, it is on this side of.

The it is with me. The Freudian slip was the edible on edible. That because I'm edible. I do so much eating.

So at the end of this oh, shoot. I always forget about this part, we find out that we have to have found something out. And Dan, I'm going to ask you to go first because Katie clearly is still contemplating.

I am happy to go first because I cannot say that this happens to me very often watching television. What I learned today is that if I see on television Katie Nolan genuinely joyous, then I too get to live vicariously through that joy because I was surprised that I was made happy by seeing her that happy. Seeing I did not underestimate her. I didn't have anything in the way of expectations for what it is. That would be the only way I process it was I would be scared of doing that. I don't know that I would be somebody willing to have the bravery to do that because I would fear getting embarrassed. So when I saw her crushing it, it was one of the highlights of my day to see her that happy because I know how good that had to feel. Restorative. Good. That had to feel for her to be able to enjoy that. And forgive me if I'm going too close to the lights here, Katie, but in watching what a bad fit and how much it must have hurt you to go from ESPN to baseball and have apple and baseball sort of reject who you are, it made me very happy to see you in front of lights you care about more than that.

Glowing and happy and radiant and it gave me genuine borrowed joy.

It was like watching a great athlete finally get into an offense that fits them. It was like, yes, I want to watch this. We did this today on the show. I want to watch this YouTube highlight reel. This is fun.

Which is nice. The thing Pablo said to me about it before was, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it feels like a make a wish situation.

Oh, no, it was a compliment.

I don't know if there's a nice way to take it, but I will.

Take it that know.

I'm just mad you picked. I mean, I'm glad and happy and full of love that you said I was as he threw to you. I was like, oh, I know what mine will be. I found out that when dan cries, I cry. There's nothing that stops. Like that happened when we did your show. And it's happening, like when you start to tear up my eyes just well, with tears. But now it sounds like exactly what you said, which is when I'm happy, you're happy.

I bring you pain, grief and tears. You bring me joy. Seems lopsided.

No, I think it's an even switch.

Both meanwhile, as you guys are experiencing.

What do you bring?

Emotions. What I found out is that in that very touching conversation about mental wellness, what I could not get out of my brain was the idea that somewhere christopher maloney is listening to katie nolan mention dan sneak in that on some of those questions, she wasn't even paying attention. That's right.

I was buzing. I look on this, pablo tory finds out like I'm masturbating on celebrity jeopardy. I knew the answers. Katie wasn't even paying attention, and she.

Kicked my puppy category. I was so distracted. They had yawning puppies.

That guy is so miserable today because as mad as he was on that set, he lost to somebody who wasn't paying attention and is terrible at math.

And is not famous. An unemployed lady who just loves the show.

Make a wish, unemployed lady.

If you do not know who Elliot stabler is, if you have not watched hundreds of hours of law and order like I have, please get familiar and appreciate the feud that Katie Nolan is engaged in. The second greatest feud, in my opinion, at Metalark Media, right behind the one that we have at Pablo Torre finds out with David Sampson, who continues to find out that we will not stop finding out stuff. Thanks to Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rachel Miller, Howard Carl Scott, Ethan Shrier, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tuminello, as well as studio engineering by Viridian Tech, production by NGW Post, our theme song by John Bravo, and yes, enjoy your weekend. Unless, of course, you are Christopher Maloney. I will talk to you next week.