Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. I don't know what feathering your boost button means. I just know that someone out there heard Katie Nolen say that. And liked it. And liked it way too much.

A little too much. Yeah. And shout out to that lady.

Right after this ad.

You're listening to Duraph Kings Network. This is.

Where I want to start because Ariel Helwani, who is playing sick, playing hurt, and we thank him for doing this, is not in person with me and you, Katie.

Yeah, there's no chance that's real.

I feel bad that you feel bad physically. Sorry about that. I feel good that we can now interrogate him about the real thing I want to find out today, which is what the fuck?

That's a green screen, right?

That's a green screen. It has.

To be a green screen. That's fake as hell. It's too many books and they're too small. They'd have to be very far behind you.

Does this look like a green screen? Look at the way I'm moving. That's not a green screen.

Yes, it does. What's that little light flare off your left shoulder?

No, it's just because I have... Is there one that you want me to pull out? I'll be happy to pull it out.

Yes, any of them. Get the dialogs of Play-Doh. I see it over there, hiding in the corner.

Okay, just one second.

Oh, shoot. It's real. I'm convinced. Oh, my God.

That's an actual book.

Wow. Look at.

All those books. It's a very smart person.

Book, too. And you've read all of them, I assume.

This might be the best thing that I got from working at ESPN. It's just a TV. Sick.

It's not a game screener. Wait, but this is the question I have. That's so great. This is the question I have as.

You - Oh, this thing killed me right here. Yeah, I told you.

I saw those. There's a reflection. If you're not watching on the Drafteens Network or YouTube, there's a clear reflection from Ariel's window. Beautiful window. The sunlight of New Jersey, is streaming in. But those books, whose books are those?

Yeah, where did you get that picture?

How would you pick those books? What's the backstory on the.

Book shop? It's a great question. A question that no one's asked me. Actually, one time I was on center towards the end of my time there, and the freaking screen saver went on. No cap, Jay, as the kids like to say, no cap right here. Co-main event. I'm more excited about the Co-main event. As my screen goes out behind me, my entire life has just been exposed as a complete fraud, Jay. Can you believe this?

That was very - Oh, that's very funny. -very embarrassing.

Very funny. Flying Toasters.

I like being a warm library. I was looking for something homey. I looked at pictures of libraries and whatnot. Now this is a library. Library. That's the thing I can't even believe anyone would think this would be my house.

Look how many books this is. This is incredible. I know, but there's no Dewey decimal system. I don't see any numbers or.

Tape on on the If you look very closely, there's a lot here. Oh, okay. I just found the right picture that matches, I think, my skin tone, my hair, my eyes, everything. It does. It really does. It just fits. It feels like it's my little universe. I don't really appreciate you guys breaking breaking as we say, in the wrestling business. We could have just ignored all.

Of this. Sure. Maybe you should frame out the bottom of the TV there. So we could... Where? Where? Oh, crap. That's right. It wouldn't be obvious.

There you go. I'm a little bit off my game.

How's that? Is that better? It's crazy that you have it so that it has to be perfectly set or it's...

I just like how the guy who's the best, foremost MMA expert in the world is like, You know what? My audience needs to know that I love books.

I read. I read quite a bit.

I bring on Ariel Helwani for many reasons. He is the foremost authority on MMA and all sorts of things that I don't understand. Also because I've been obsessed, what I bring to the table today in this episode of Share and and is this video that I watched from my couch of Ariel on a stage in between Logan, Paul, and and Dylan, And I want to get to the genre of what they engage in these days because that's a bigger picture topic. But the micro of this is just this press conference that devolved very rapidly, which Ariel was ahead of, seemingly, before anybody anybody if we can watch that clip.

This.

Is Logan Paul, like underhand chucking a bottle of something at Dylan.

Danis'- A prime, I assume. A prime, prime, reasonably. I assume.

It's prime. Where would you say that that struck Dylan Dylan In.

The penis.

Hit him in the penis.

Right in.

The penis. That's what it looked like.

It was below the belt.

Yeah. And then Dylan Dylan Ariel, how would you describe what you saw? Because he takes his microphone and then does what?

Yeah, well, I didn't see all of that because as you can see in the clip, I got the hell out of there. You got out. A lot of people were making fun of me. I'm like, You think I want to get... There's another angle. If I would have stayed exactly where I was originally, I would have been pelted in the head with water bottle. I'm totally okay with being the scaredy cat who goes off. I actually thought I was very comcom collected about it. I just said, You know what? I'm out of here. Walk there to the left little L-cut.

I do think you did a little bit of hand stuff that made you look like not cool, comcom collected. You did.

Do a little bit of like... It's very unfair. It's very unfair. If you roll the tape back... Which we will, repeatedly. I'm fixing my IFB. Look, I'm fixing my my and then he hits me.

That's why I did that. Had I not been fixing my my in that moment, I would have never done that. I would have been.

Unflappable in that moment. You were here and then you went to-.

I feel like I was here and then I went to here, and that's called good defense. That's Philly Shell right there.

That's good defense. Ariel was shoulder rolling as soon as that water bottle flew across the stage.

Thank you.

For that, Pablo. That said, the other verb I'd use is a scamper. There was a scampering. A scurrying. It felt like, Ariel, you've done this before, though, the face-off, the press conference before a a fight. Had veteran veteran savvy where you wanted to not be, I guess. Yeah.

I'm not fighting. I'm not courageous like them. I want nothing to do with any of that. And these two guys have had their moments. In August, they had a press conference and cake was being thrown and water bottles were being thrown back there, too. I want nothing to do with any of this. I just want to go there, do my job, come home to my family. There's no part of me that wants to be a hero and say, I took a water bottle to the face. So people were making fun of me for getting out of the way. I wish I got out of the way quicker. I went to hide behind the Ring Girls. That's how I wanted nothing. I was like, There's no way they're going to throw anything at them. Let me just hide behind. I have no problem being a total coward in this moment.

Amazing. Human shields. You're that guy in the movie that takes the woman and it's like, No, no, take her.

Not me. It's beautiful. Yeah, like George Costanza, when there's a fire in the apartment and he's like- like- Yes, old ladies. Ladies. -nogging the old people, that was me. I am totally okay with that. But to answer your question, though, Pablo, he took a microphone and he nailed Logan in the head with it, Dylan did. Then he cut cut him open. Was very unfortunate because there's an actual fight that needs to happen on Saturday. So for a minute there, I was looking at the executives, they had the fear of God in their eyes because now all of a sudden, this multi-million dollar fight was potentially up in smoke because of this hijinks. In the end, though, it didn't matter. Everyone was okay. But that's some scary stuff.

Well, I want to follow up on on that because this is a thing that had millions upon millions of dollars on the line. It's real big business now. And he also pointed out that you, as a professional, professional, to do professional professional things. Want to go show up, do your job, and you doing your job at... What do we call this genre now, Ariel? This was a professional boxing fight, but this was Logan Paul, YouTuber, YouTuber, influencer Dylan Dylan who... Katie, I don't even know if you.

Know know I have no idea who.

That is. So please explain what the fuck.

Okay. Dylan Dylan is actually an incredible Brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioner. He's a black belt. He's had great success in the PJJ world. Then Then he a guy named Connor McGregor, and his profile grew a lot, and he adopted some of Connor's persona. He's only had two MMA fights, and they were very very low fights for an organization called Bellator. But his last fight was in 2019. He suffered a serious knee injury. He's been out for a while, but what he's really good at is being a crap talker. He's a troll. And anytime there's something on any major Instagram or Twitter account about the Paul Brothers, he would always be talking crap about them, that he would beat them up, that he would knock them out, etc, etc. He was scheduled to fight a guy named named who was in the main event of this event, who's Logan's business partner and prime, who's a huge deal in in England. In January, pulled out a week before. At that point, his queue rating couldn't have been lower. Everyone was like, Oh, my God, Dylan. You talk all this crap. You didn't even show up to fight KSI, the rapper.

You couldn't even fight that guy. You're not a real fighter. Logan now, www. Wrestler, killing it all over the place. He's making a ton of money. He says he wants the box. He picks Dylan. Dylan. I heard about this, this, actually saw Logan at an event in August, and I said, Why would you pick Dylan? His His rating is so low. Why are you giving him this platform? He's like, Oh, it's an easy fight, blah, blah, blah. Well, what ended up happening was Dylan, being the troll that he is, took his trolling into overdrive and ended up really picking a fight with Dylan's fiancé, a woman by the name of Nina, and went on this two-month onslaught.

This is where I noticed it, was that my algorithm began feeding me.

This.

Man's war on former SI swimsuit model and tabloid, I guess, sub-character, Nina Agdale.

I know that name.

But it got, I mean, Ariel, how extreme did it feel relative to your expectations for all of this?

This? No, got way too personal and it was gross. And he gained 800,000 followers on Twitter and all that stuff. What ended up happening, though, initially when this fight was announced, I was like, Oh, I get it. I get it now. Logan's trying to knock out the guy that everyone hates to troll online. Let's be honest, honest, Logan polarizing and there's some people who hate him and now they're going to love him. But what ended up happening was that Dylan became the baby face guys. Baby face is is the the harassing term good guy. What ended up happening was all these people on Twitter who are maybe sad, depressed, can't get a a I don't know what it it is. Cheering him on to harass this poor woman who had nothing to do with this even more. More. So would post these pictures and and and it was getting really ugly. Now she's suing him. It's just... It's turned into this whole thing, and it got way too personal. But what ended up happening was it drew a lot of eyeballs and a lot of attention to the fight. When we got to Manchester last week, it felt like that was the main event.

It wasn't, but it felt like it.

That wasn't the main event?

It wasn't the main event. It was the co-main event. It was the second to last fight, but it felt like Logan was going to rip his head off. Off. Could blame him? It became very, very personal.

Ariel, to your point, right? What this did was promote the fight. Oh, yeah. I mean, the juice juice I love combat sports, boxing specifically because humiliation, ego, the ruining of a man's sense of self is on the line. This one, it just felt real. The enemy, the stakes were that real. And so what happened?

Okay, so it was really real. And it's interesting that you bring up humiliation because that ended up playing a big factor in how the fight went. The fight ended up being a total bust because what happened was Dylan Dylan who hasn't fought in four years, spent the first two rounds like this. He didn't throw a single punch. In fact, he only landed nine punches throughout the entire six-round fight. When I was watching it and I was commentating for DAZN, I said, You know what? I understand what he's doing. He's trying to tire out Logan. Logan's got big muscles. He's not a professional boxer. So maybe he's trying to let him unload everything, and then he'll pour it on come the third. And in fact, his coach confirmed that that was the game plan. The problem was at the end of the second, Logan actually rocked him. And I think Dylan then, in his his mind I'm not going to get humiliated by this guy. I'm not going to get knocked down. I'm not going to get knocked out. Out. I'm to get a moral victory and say that I survived his best shots, and I'm not going to put myself in any harm or trouble to potentially get knocked out by him.

And then he took it one step further and just wanted to create a moment, a viral moment, a meme, if you will. So he tried to get him in a guillotine. He tried to do a take down. He tried to do stupid stuff. But in the end, he only really embarrassed himself and didn't end up doing anything of note. And then at the end, when it got all crazy, Logan's bodyguard jumped in the ring and it turned into a huge brawl. Again- And Logan ended up winning winning via It was a mess. It was a bit of a shame.

Who is the governing body of this fight?

It's a great question. This is a great question. This was under an umbrella, like an organization called Misfits Boxing. Now, this is fascinating, guys, because Misfits is this is this boxing organization that is owned by KSI and a guy named Mams Taylor, who was once big in the music industry. I couldn't believe... I'd never been to one of their events. But to answer your your earlier question, Pablo, is this? It's not boxing. You cannot call it boxing. It's like, you know how professional wrestling has the word wrestling in there, but it really has nothing to do with collegiate or Olympic wrestling? It's crossover or influencer influencer You must always call it it that. Influencer boxing. It's a whole different thing. But you know what blew me away when I went there? I didn't know that. I was at Tank Garcia in April in Las Vegas. I was at Spence Crawford.

Real, real boxers.

Right.

But come.

The Co-Main event, those nights, there probably wasn't a thousand people at T-Mobile Arena. No one was in the arena. No one cared. On Saturday in Manchester, before the first fight, and I think that there were a total of 11 or 12 fights on this this card. The first fight, it was probably 60 to 70 % full. Before the first fight on the main card, six-fight main card, it was a hundred % full. You don't see this in anything but the USC. And where this was different than the USC was I couldn't believe how many young kids were there. It was more of a WW crowd than than a USC There were 10-year-olds, 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds with their dad. And so what I try to explain to my audience who gets so upset when they see this stuff, this is a shamp. This is an example that boxing is dead, blah, blah, blah. This isn't for me. This isn't for you, Pablo. This isn't for the traditional combat sports fan. It's for me. There is a massive audience of young kids that love this stuff. And they know all the characters and they're obsessed with them from top to to bottom, they know their their and they subscribe to them on YouTube and on TikTok and all this stuff.

It's a whole other universe that we don't know anything about. And it was just fascinating to witness.

It all. But the idea that we don't know anything about it, I do want to challenge you on that because it feels like the reason partly why it's so successful is because the skill set, Ariel, the skill set of how to sell a fight, how to create juice, how to create that crackling sensation of like, Man, I wonder what happens. What happens in this fight we're about to see? It feels like the comment section or the Twitter thread, the world of influencer, influencer, shit, shit, is a natural farm system for at least that part of combat sports, the promotion of of.

It is. And it uses those elements of, Oh, I like this guy. I hate that guy. I'm emotionally invested in this guy. I want to see this guy beat his ass. I want to see this guy lose. But ultimately, they're not pro boxers. Right.

It's all sizzle. There's no no Doesn't it feel like once it gets down to the fight, there's never a fight that you're like, Wow.

What a fight. Actually, to be fair, some of them them good, but I would just never... They were novices. It was like seeing like there was one fight on that card, which was crazy. But I have to admit, for what it was, was entertaining. It was tag team boxing. It was was like.

Tag team I don't even know what? -tag team wrestling.

It was two on two. It was two on two with one guy standing outside. They are trying to redefine this world.

They have to name it. I think they have to name it something. I think it has to to be. They call it crossover They should call it Celebrity Death Match.

That was a good show back in the day.

I think you could call it that. That. We had a Judge Judge Lane. Yeah.

I just think that, I don't know, know, celebrity the definition of the way they use it on TV when it's a show of people, like Celebrity Jeopardy.

It's like that really. Katie stares into.

The camera. No, but it just feels like it doesn't bum you out at all. I know you said there's young kids and that it's for them, it's not for us, but it doesn't make you go like, Hey, this was a real thing. Thing. And in this time when clearly the boxing landscape and fight sport landscape is changing with like, like, show is now out of the game, doesn't it make you get a little bit like.

Where is it going? Don't you worry that that Jeremy Shapp is weeping, Ariel. Ariel. I Jeremy. The idea, though, to Katie's point, though, the idea of we're over indexing on sizzle and we're selling stuff. And it reminds me of truly the problem sports faces macroeconomically and macroculturally, which is, wow, all these people are talking about this on on social, how do we actually make this into a product? And it feels like here, they're at the very least getting people to want to know what's in the box. And I just wonder, is that sustainable? Does this feel like a real business that you'll be covering for a a time?

No, no, no. There are actual people that cover this. This is their beat. This is not my beat. I pop in and out when there's a connection to the MMA, traditional combat world, Dylan Dylan MMA fighter, etc, when Jake Paul fights and Anderson Silver and Nate Diaz, that's my world crossing over. But I'm not going to cover Misfits 11, their next event, next month, because it doesn't do it for for me, there's enough and boxing and other things to cover. It doesn't bum me out, Katie. And I'll tell you why. Because I don't feel like boxing is in the gutter like people like to think it's in the gutter or say it's in the gutter. In fact, boxing has had one of its best years in recent memory with the likes of Tank Garcia and Spence Crawford and Canelo coming over and having his big fight just a couple of weeks ago. And there are big fights to come. Hanny Prograin, December. I could go on and on about boxing. And so it's just how do you want to to It's almost like talking to someone who writes for a major newspaper and say, say, Twitter bum you out?

Doesn't it bum you out that people just want things in bite-size form? This is just a sign of the times.

But this is why this specific sport, if we're calling it that with scare quotes, why it's so fascinating, it's because here you can see on some level, you can get the guilty pleasure of like, Well, yeah, I'm going to click on this highlight of this guy getting his ass beat because I also know that guy to be a a person based on all of his documented behavior in ways that are real and legally troubling and worrisome for the future future of, I don't the American conscience as it regards how do we treat treat And there I'm just like, on some level, though, Ariel, I imagine a click is a click. We will take all eyeballs philosophy of how to promote something.

Yeah, and that gets the most amount of eyeballs. But I could tell you there's a main event in the USC this weekend involving a guy named Alex Wokinowski, who's the type of person that I want my kids to be a fan of, who's a a father of who his biggest vice is that he likes to cook chicken wings and put Cheetos around it or something like that. The guy is like a salt of the earth Mench. You know what I mean? So there's enough out there that's good and wholesome in the fight game. You just have to find it. And unfortunately, those people typically don't make the big bucks, don't get the attention, and don't get people all crazy going, Oh, my God. This is an indictment on the state of the fight game. It's not. There's always going to be crazy characters. There's always going to be good guys and bad guys. Guys. And just up to you to find the ones that you want to root for. Tim Duncan was just like a soft-spoken soft-spoken dude, right? And are some people who appreciated that. That. And there were other people who just liked the the Bad Oh.

Ariel, Tim Duncan would be a terrible influencer.

Oh, he would be terrible.

Yes. But you know what would be better? I have solutions oriented. These guys should cover themselves, both Tim Duncan and this gentleman, gentleman, by the champion of the world. Alex Alex should walk into the the ring in Cheeto dust.

Done. Love that.

He's so good. Try to lay a hand on him. Try it. Try your best. Yeah, then go home and touch your couch.

See how that felt.

Don't touch your eye.

All right, so now that we've talked about something you know, Ariel, that I knew nothing about, I feel like I should do my story, which is something I know that you know nothing about, which is video video games-based. Now I think a lot of I'm proud of that, by the way. I know, and we're going to get to that. I feel like a lot of people have negative opinions of video games. They think they're frivolous. They're time wasters. But I read an article in The Paris Review. Review. That is a publication that I only remembered a check when a smartie like Pablo sends me a link and says, Did you see this in The Paris Review? That's right. I read this really long, detailed think piece, and maybe you can put somewhere who wrote it it because do not not remember, I want to make sure they get credit.

Hanif.

Abdul-rakeib. Yes. About his relationship with Red Dead Redemption, which is a video game you and I actually have experience with playing together. A lot of experience.

Do you remember the time during the pandemic, we both played Red Dead Redemption, Multiplayer area? I'll sit this one out for a second. We both got on two different.

Different going parallel. I think we've told the story a million times. It's worth it every time.

Without communicating to each other verbally or otherwise, there's a move you can do in the video game where you steal someone else's horse by jumping onto it. We both tried to steal the other person's horse simultaneously and executed a gymnastics routine.

It looked like synchronized swimming. It was like we just.

Switched horses. Ariel is horrified. He has no idea why we're so excited about this.

It was amazing. Also, Pablo's whole thing at Red Dead was like, Can I punch this horse? You would just keep punching your horse.

I was the Logan Ball of Red Dead Redemption.

But this article, article, in the Paris Review, basically talked about how during the pandemic pandemic and since, because I do think in the post-pandemic world, we look at life differently, basically how the video game taught him about life and taught him about death and about the ways that we try to control what we can control. We try to do this complicated moral math of how we can end up redeeming ourselves in the long run. It's very good, and I recommend everybody read it, but it made me see... It helps. Whenever you're a video games person, you get very happy when somebody legitimizes the thing you love, and then you point to it and you go, See, it's for smart people, and it's helpful. For me, I mean, video games are a big part of my life. But I think socially during the pandemic, just to speak to that aspect of it, the ability to play video games online with people anywhere. My brother who had moved to Chicago at the beginning of the pandemic, I now spend more time with him than I ever did because every night we play video games together. Every night around the same time, we get on a headset with a group of of and we play whatever we feel like like playing.

It has given me a social aspect that I think without that, I'm not going to Chicago all the time.

I'm not calling him on the phone. I want, Ariel, to begin to imagine what the activities, activities, I you're doing with your brother and I know your fiancé, Dan, as well as gamers. What games are you playing?

Well, we went through a a group of stage of Call of Duty. They're still on that. There's a new one coming out that I have to decide if I'm going to get into or not. The thing with Call of Duty and not to get into into I think they stopped doing this now, but every couple of games was from a different developer. There were two developers. I don't know if developer is the right word. I'm not smart about video games. I just.

Play a a lot of It's like a boxing commission, but.

For- So every other one was made with a different engine. It was like whatever program program differently, it differently, it felt different. There were a couple that I would just skipped because they weren't for me. But I now have to check out this new... New... What a narrative objection. Well, because it just I got really good at one of them. I think it was Modern Warfare, and I got really good good at Then the next one came out and I was garbage at it because it was just different. You've moved differently. It was too smooth. Cold War was too smooth for me. But anyway.

That's what they say about the.

Cold War. That's right. There wasn't enough... It wasn't gritty enough. But anyway, so we did a lot of Call of Duty. But But then there's... The main one we go to is we do the Rocket League tournament every Monday.

Do you know what Rocket League is, Ariel?

Yes, I know about this. Isn't this the robots that play soccer?

It's cars. It's cars that play soccer. The The emission irresponsible.

Irresponsible, but a great I think it's a total waste of of time, far be it for me, a guy who likes pro wrestling to knock someone's thing, right?

Huge waste of time.

But this, Ariel, this is where I am curious. I'm also a guy who owns an Xbox model as a PlayStation 5, because I'm about to play the Spiderman game.

Which comes out this.

This Oh, it's today. Today, because this episode comes out. Oh, I got to go down on it. Yeah, Yeah, Spiderman too. Ariel, I feel like you're not liking video games, but liking all of this other stuff that is allegedly frivolous, frivolous, unserious, allegedly beneath beneath people. Allegedly. How did you avoid ever contracting this particular interest?

I was a big fan back in the day. I played Madden, I played Mike Tyson's Punch Out, Nintendo, all that stuff. But to spend three, four hours in front of a screen shooting people, I think what it comes down to is I'm not a violent guy. You do fight sport. By the way - What are we doing? Doing? Was just waiting. I just served up. What are we doing? I I was you you would not.

Miss I don't like violence. I'm not violent. But this guy threw an energy drink at this guy's crotch, and I was there front row seat.

I don't condone that behavior, by the way. But in any event, I think ultimately what it comes down to is I'm just such a busy guy, and I don't have time to play Call of Duty with my friends in California or Canada or anywhere around the world. On top of that, in all seriousness, it is a constant battle as anyone out there who has has young who have been exposed to iPads and video games and Nintendo Switches and things like that, it is a daily battle, a true battle. A battle that I don't think I ever presented to my parents when I had an Atari or N64 or anything like that to try to get them to not do that, to do something else to play outside, to play in the basement with their siblings or whatever. Whatever. So I'm sitting there for three, four hours playing these silly games, what an example am I? You're a silly game. I have to go in there. I'm sorry.

That's what you you though. You just don't have kids. That's the problem. Where you guys screwed up up you.

You But But as a a as the father of a daughter- Here.

We go.

-who also owns a Nintendo Switch, three and a half, five and three and a half. Crazy. She was born yesterday.

Your daughter has a Nintendo Switch at three and a half?

I have a Nintendo Switch that she is always asking to play because I played it in front of her.

The way they pick it up is scary.

It is. Truly, the intuitive aspect of just how to manipulate any tablet and/or video game system is unnerving.

Crazy.

But I do want to point out that Ariel is talking about Nintendo Switches the way Bob Ryan talks about three-pointers. That's right. You old-ass man.

It's not for you. To quote you, it's not.

For you. But this is is I think, Ariel, and I'm so glad we're talking about this with someone who is not, again, immersed in open world video games because a part of what this article in the Paris Paris Review, that article was pointing out was this is a game that, of course, has these existential themes, the main character who you become. He has a morality morality where the more good works you do, Ariel, you're an aspirational good guy, a baby face. The more good stuff you do, the more points you get. And the worse stuff you do, of course, the different consequences you encounter. But the other part about this game, which I find so interesting, is that it's open world insofar insofar you can just, as the author points out, go and watch Sunsets. You can go to the Western side of the map.

It's a beautiful game. It's beautiful. Not as beautiful as Ghost of of the but.

Also a beautiful-We can be a Samurai in Samurai times. Gorgeous. Gorgeous. It's great. Well, you can watch Sunsets, Ariel, in an open world video game, and it's amazing.

You can punch horses. Listen, I don't want to be one of those guys who's like, You're wasting your time. It's not for me. I feel like it's a waste of time, and I feel like you're sitting there for... If you told me you were someone who played it for 30 minutes a a night it's impossible.

Let's.

Do the accounting here, Katie. Katie. Waiting to get into a lobby itself. I know. That's the thing. They do these things on Call of Duty where it's like, Oh, a 30 minute DoubleXP pass. But once you activate it, it goes in real time. Then you have to join a thing, a lobby. Then you have to wait for the the other people to join the lobby. By the time you're in, you got 15 minutes left on your pass. It is time-consuming. Here's the thing, Ariel. I got a lot of time. Here I am at not my my job I've got time. I do spend a bunch of it playing video games, but I find them entertaining and also mentally stimulating and rewarding.

Ariel Hillwani is doing what to to to do to get to the stage. Great.

Honestly, it's actually a bit of a sad question to ponder because I'm starting to realize that I have no hobbies- There you go. -whatsoever. My wife likes to watch these shows. I watch none of them with with her. Likes to stay up at night and watch watch She just finished watching Game of Thrones. I'm proud to say I didn't watch a second of it. And don't. I want nothing to do with any of this stuff. Honestly, I just want to go to bed. If I could go to bed, I'm very happy. If it's 9:30, I'm thrilled. Yeah, I'm a bit of a loser.

9:30 is bedtime. You're a 9:30 guy.

If I could go, if I could go. Can I tell you what's my new favorite thing right now?

Is it your sleeping cap? Is it it the you carry with you on the way to bed at at With.

My warm cup of milk. My new favorite thing right now, and this isn't a crazy answer or anything, but I've really fallen in love with soccer. I adore soccer. That's become like my escape.

I mean, you love soccer so much. What if Katie, Katie, and I told you that you could play soccer, but as a car?

You could fly through the air. I'm learning how to fly. I'm not very good.

At it. Rocket League has has.

Flying capability. Get to a certain level where I always say I'm a flightless bird. I do a lot of groundwork, which you're familiar with. My ground game is strong. There'll be guys that are trying to fly and the ball will be up here and they'll try to fly it and they'll miss. Then who's waiting there for for me to put it in the The catfish. Put it in the net. That's right. But now I'm trying to learn how to fly and it's very hard because you have to feather your boost button, which gets your car to fly. It's a whole thing. I can show you, Ariel. I can show.

You later. No, I have no. Actually, my kids who are 11 and and they've outgrown that game. Game.

Don't even play that game anymore. You know what? This feels mean. This feels.

Just just like Paris review. No, I'm just saying like I was like, Oh, this is cool. You like the robots hitting.

The ball? Great. I don't know what feathering your boost button means. I just know that someone out there heard Katie Katie say that. And liked it. And liked it way too much.

A little too much. Yeah. And shout out to that lady.

Progressive. I see what you did there.

Yeah.

I think too much screen time is ultimately bad for your brain.

But the other stuff takes you longer. That says a guy who's what? Never on his phone? You want me to think you're never on your phone?

Phone? It a guy who's sitting in front of a a giant, and he's giant screen with fake books on it.

With a screen behind him. Yeah, you are on a screen with a screen. You are in a screen sandwich, my friend.

All.

Right, we we have- guess what? What? That's a great transition right there. Look at that. Can I take that transition?

Come.

On. Yeah, professional. Professional. A guy who's always on his screen. Yes, that brings me to the article that I wanted to present to you you guys. Fascinating profile on a young man named Shams Charney. Of course, every sports fan out there knows who Shams is. He is one of the foremost scoopers, news breakers in the world of the NBA. There's only really two, right? There's him and Woj. It's a story in New York magazine, and it's entitled Scoop Dreams, written by Reeves Reeves And it's a fascinating look at a young man who isn't even 30 years old and who has carved out quite the niche for himself. And the thing about this, I mean, there's a lot to unpack regarding this story. I very much relate and sympathize to the story, if only because for a very long time, people used to refer to me as the Woage of MMA, meaning I would break a lot of stories and some of those stories got me in trouble and didn't want them out, blah, blah, blah. I have really removed myself from that world because because is is intoxicating it is like this never ending hamster wheel.

And ultimately, I felt like I was too obsessed with the phone, too connected to the phone, too obsessed with checking the phone in the middle of the night that I missed a scoop that that I not not a scoop. And life is too short for that nonsense.

I have to- Wait, when did this realization hit? Because Shamshirani, for the context of the story, which is really good in New York magazine, he's talking about how his FaceTime average screen time a day is 18 hours. That's crazy. And And that he more than 500 texts, calls, and emails.

A day. I don't want to die.

A.

Day. That is suffocating.

To compete, Ariel, to compete in the never ending rat race of scoops and news breaking.

Yeah, I don't think that's healthy, but he's a young guy. He doesn't have a family. And so I understand why he's doing it. I don't begudge him. I was trying to do the same thing in the world of mixed martial arts for a very long time. But ultimately, to answer your question, like a couple of years ago, but I just felt like it was unhealthy. And I felt like it was just a never ending cycle of, okay, you break this story, no one cares, 10 minutes later, and then it's on to the next one. And it just wasn't fun anymore. It was making me hate my job. And it made the U-of-C not like me. It made other people not... And And just like, like, is not the way to be. And I would say to Sham's like, he has obviously created a great lane for himself. His whole relationship with Woj, I I to be very bizarre. Bizarre.

I don't know what's going on Star Wars- Yeah, like mentor, pupil, betrayal, allegedly, don't talk anymore, all that.

Don't credit each other, never reference each other, don't acknowledge each other's existence. There's nothing that seems healthy about that. No. But they're the only two. And I can't imagine 18 hours in front of the the speaking from a guy who, by the way, averages 10 or 11. So I can't be too... We're all.

All there. Yeah, we're all ashamed of our our.

First time. I would never say mine out loud.

Okay, fair enough. I didn't know if.

That was bad. No, it is. It is bad. But we're all there together, so we're not here to judge.

He's on a different... I've stood in front of these, I won't name names, but I've stood in front of of quote-unquote, news breakers, and they can't not look at their phone for more than a minute.

I mean, you see them on on TV, in the NFL. We were never, from just being on TV as little as I have, you never have your phone out. But when you see see he has to have his phone out. Out. And he would get up and walk away to take like they are a... Crazy, right? They're just not addicted, but they are.

Tethered to to their.

They have to.

Be tethered to their fun. I think it's addicted, but also also incentivized the other context for the story is that these are enormously profitable jobs. Schams doing this is not stupid. He's doing it because this is a niche that is increasingly valuable. He gets paid a lot, a lot of money, as does does even more so, as does Schaffer even more so. So the idea, Ariel, of this is a way to do do sports I read this this and I think to myself, I don't want any part of this job. It seems, and again, maybe that's a place of privilege because I have this weird studio that I sit in where I talk to Katie Nolen and pay her zero dollars. But it's amazing how little I envy the success story that objectively this is.

Yes, you can make a lot of money. But let me tell you from experience, and it was never at the level of Shams or Woj, it's a a jail that you're living in because it's not just about breaking news this and that. It's A, the relationships and it's trying to beat this guy. And then the the fear. I would break a story and my heart would be pounding so much. The fear, potentially getting something something is is so, is truly terrifying. Now, proud to say still batting 1,000 1,000 babies.

All these years later.

Nice, turnover. Turnover. But, I I did see, I think one of the dudes that we're talking about the tweet that that was going to Toronto and then deleted the tweet, and you can't delete anything on the internet. Yeah, Chomestead, explicitly. Let me tell you something. That is not a good feeling. He must have wanted to crawl into a hole and never come out. It's just it's unsustainable. And so for someone who is as young as him, it's great. I don't know how how does it, and there's a reason why more people don't do it. It is truly an unsustainable, and I think an unhealthy and unhappy way to live your life.

I feel like we're all my favorite-favorite meme on the internet is, and it's my favorite because I relate to it, is the meme is the animated gif of that raccoon who's holding cotton candy, who then dips it into water because that's what raccoons do with their food, and then looks away for a second and looks back and it's completely dissolved. Dissolved. And just like, Oh, this is what making content is. But the news breaker guys are that to the even more extreme extent.

I think I would constantly be anxious that I'm being fed bad information in an attempt to change a narrative on something to help somebody save money on a trade. I would always be worried that somebody was giving me bad information.

I don't trust enough. You obviously have to double or triple check. Check. So was a big thing because people have their own agendas. But the thing that I don't get is like, okay, obviously, look, as you said, Pablo, they make money off of it. But there are times where they're literally 30 seconds apart with almost the same wording. It's almost like they're copy and and pasting the same.

So is the.

Joy in that?

You know what I mean? You put put news in scare quotes. I cosign your scare quotes. It's absolutely an occupation that should exist. I'm not trying to get on a journalistic high horse here, but just the comedy of everybody's trying to get ahead of a press release by five seconds. That's the win. All you got to do is be the nanosecond guy. Literally, the person in the the section saying first, that is the win. It's going to come out 99 % of the time. It's going to get released. You just got to be the first guy with the tweet.

Andand obviously there's a demand for for that we live in a world where it's okay to be on on being paid by your employer, and it's more important to send something out on Twitter as opposed to delivering that. Imagine Walter Cronkite back in the day tweeting that JFK is dead as opposed to delivering it to the world. Obviously, it's not as important, but it's absurd to me that we've reached that point. Now, I'm not trying to be sanctimonious here because I used to reside more in this world. But ultimately, from a personal fulfillment.

Standpoint- A cardiac standpoint.

-that too. I derive a lot more joy from getting big interviews, doing great shows, having a personality, things of that nature. And I would worry for Shams because if he continues to do this, it's just unsustainable. It truly is. And I don't think it's very healthy.

Can we do the thing where we get real, comfortably invasive? Sure. So he has has 72,4 unread emails. Yuck. So what we got? What you got, Ariel?

What you got?

Yeah, right now. Okay. Right now, let's go.

Let's Let's go -Right this second.

Reveal. We're all going to go around the same thing.

It's amazing that you're asking me this question. Right now, I have 57, and it drives me insane.

Insane.

I have insane OCD. My goal at the end of the night is to get to zero.

Oh, boy. The people who have emails like like that. Screen would drive you crazy.

I'm currently, Gmail, I've managed this this I'm currently at unread 3,282.

Wow, I couldn't live. What about you, Katie?

Who, me? Oh, just at a cool 22,922. A lot of that is stuff like Grubhub being like, We've got your your order, I just never open it or delete it. I try to every day day I try to go through and I delete all the ones I don't don't need, there's years of me not doing that.

But the ideas of... Wait, the idea of, keep your phone out, the idea of your phone as a prison, what are you imprisoned by.

These days? Group chat. Group chats. I am... I mean, actually, if you want to get specific, right now I'm in a group chat that involves people that are not on an iPhone, which means that you do not have the the ability- should be in jail. Jail. Do not have the ability to click on the group and go leave this group chat. It's a prison. I am stuck in the group chat. The only way out is if I message the person who put me in it and specifically ask to be removed.

You can't pull a parachute cord.

No, because it's not just just an-my group chat. I'm stuck and the person who put me in it is like a person I don't want to make mad. I just mute it and then I have these constant messages and they're just hard to keep up with. Then if if you them them and there are you do want to talk to. I read an article in something, Wall Street Journal? I don't know. I read a lot. Oh, yeah.

The journal.

Had an article about group chats. Yeah, this may be relevant to you. I know you have children. Of parents in group group and they're finding them them of other parents or of the PTA or the does anybody know if we're allowed to bring peanut products to school? They're just constantly texting with these tiny questions. They said they feel this need to scroll through just to make sure nobody texted about an emergency or nobody texted something specifically related to their child. I just think group chats are are they're bordering on taking over.

Our lives. It's anxiety-inducing, and I'm not good at them. Them.

I'm not good at You don't need to talk to me every day. I don't have anything to update you on. I promise. I'll let you know when I do. Or maybe I won't.

So, Ariel is also Canadian. And I feel like your politeness, Ariel. This is your inbox zero guy. I have a feeling that the way that you hold yourself to account is probably different than me.

And Katie. Oh, I have to reply to everyone. Actually, what annoys me more about the story that you just told me was the fact that some people or one person isn't on an iPhone. I hate the green texters. The moment I see that someone is green texter, I feel like there's a block between us. I can't fully embrace you. I feel like the waves of communication just aren't going to be as great as if I could see.

The dots. But then don't you feel icky because then you're basically saying that everybody has to be an Apple product user, and then you just feel like you're - I hate the green the Yeah, but it just feels like shouldn't people be allowed to use what... Shouldn't these tech companies get together and make it so everybody's blue? Can't they figure it out?

I hate them. But that's some utopia.

I hate the green texts. I hate.

Them more than I hate the capitalism. In fact, if you're a green a I prefer to go to WhatsApp. Do you know WhatsApp?

Yeah, WhatsApp. I don't use it, but I know of it. Oh, you don't use it. It's just another text message app. I don't need another text. I don't have that much to much to if I do, I'll put it on a podcast. So you.

Know what's interesting? Most of my group text are on WhatsApp. On WhatsApp. Europe, because I cover a sport that is very European, no one uses iMessage. There are some people who don't know, they only use WhatsApp. So it's a whole different thing. But at least in WhatsApp, you can't tell if someone is iPhone or Android or whatever. Everyone looks the same on WhatsApp. I like that. So that's to your point, shouldn't everyone look the same. Owned by Facebook. But if I get a new number, I.

Don't do Facebook. It's owned It's owned WhatsApp is owned by Facebook.

Oh, it's owned by Facebook. Right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Shout out to my boy, Mark Zuckerberg. We're close now. I don't know if you guys know this. I bet. Big MMA guy.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wait, you really are close now?

Well, close as big as-Do you have his number? Wait, so hold on. Hold on. Do you have We number?

We have Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. On this show, this show, Papertory covered Mark Zuckerberg and his MMA, DJJ specifically, like Dylan like Great job. Thank you, thank you, thank you. He's definitely an definitely an a He's guy, no doubt. If Zuck is into this sport, that is the face, the Canadian Inbox Zero aspirational face of his favorite media member. Media member. I'm talking to you, Yes, I'm wearing my own merch. I'm confident in that you are.

Just in case you were wondering, Katie, I.

Know you were judging. I wasn't. You don't know anything about me.

No. Okay, well, sorry. I don't want that smoke. I don't want that smoke.

I'm sorry. Has Mark Zuckerberg texted Ariel texted Yes or no? Yes, absolutely. Yes or no.

He WhatsApp'd him. Text?

No. Do we DM? And is he an incredibly fast DMer? I bet.

Yeah.

Have.

I asked him to come on my show to talk about his love of mixed martial arts and jiu-jitsu? Of course. Yes. Has he said that he would like to come on? Yes. Actually, the way I found out that he followed me was he commented on one of my posts, but I at the time wasn't following him. My friend was like, Do you realize that Mark Zuckerberg is in your comments? I was like, Wow. Then I wanted to profile. I was like, Follow back. I saw the follow back. I was like, Wow. That felt cool. I felt good in.

That moment. And moment. Helwani's, Ariel Heart was a was.

Listen, I'm not a name-droper. These things don't impress me. I'm sure, The Rock and I text from time to time. But it's just because we're because we're course. What's it like.

Texting The Rock? Wait, wait, wait. It's got to.

Be the.

Most boring experience. It has to be the most boring experience. There's no chance Duane is putting on paper anything interesting.

Duane is the man. Are you talking -Salt of.

The earth.

Yeah, but there's no - Can you go into your phone right now, Ariel, and just give us three words from any text exchange you've had with Duane?

This one popped Duane? This a class act and chat soon. I'll just leave it at that. Jesus. I'll just leave it at that. I mean, he said it right there. I have it. Wow. I have it. Wow. Am I to disagree?

A class to A class fucking act.

Yeah, I agree. Soon. Soon. Let's chat soon. We'll do it again soon.

At the end here, Ariel, what we do at the end of at the Finds Out is we go around the table. Katie hates this part because it always catches you up. I'm ready this time. Oh, you are? Okay. We go around the table and we say what we found out today. We've shared a lot of things about ourselves and each about ourselves publicly. Each Nolen, what did you find out today?

I found out today for the fifth time, but hopefully this time I will retain it, that Jake is the younger one. Logan is the older one. Jake was on one. Logan filmed something you shouldn't have filmed and put it on YouTube. Ask me that next week, and I hopefully we'll still have it, but I don't think so.

That's what I found out. That's a lot to retain.

A lot all you. That's 100 % coming from you. Percent coming you very much for you very that information.

Ariel, what did you learn?

I guess I learned that I shouldn't be so negative towards video games that for hermits, it could be a great thing.

He had me and then he lost me. I was feeling my heart was warmed and then it went cold.

Then are cool. For the are cool. For the antisocial.

Don't leave my house. Leave in your house is stupid and overrated. Come at me.

For the antisocial, it could be a nice way to interact with others. I shouldn't be so negative towards people who spend towards people who hours or so a night. Three to four. Three to to Three to four. Playing some fictitious video game as opposed to, as the kids like to say online, touch grass.

There's no grass. I live in New York City, so my options are so my options I played Delta to I played completion.

Wow. Oh, you did? Wow. Oh, new Delta.

Yeah, I got all those I got all a new Delta? Every single one of them. There's a thousand, I believe. All the I Yeah, I had a lot of time.

Last lot of the rock ever texted about how he knew that Osama bin Laden had been assassinated before anybody been Really?

Is that a thing?

Is Wow.

Katie, you know the story? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I didn't know that. The rock tweeted out a mysterious, very coy message about, Can't say what it is, but, what news for our country. God bless America.

Country. God to be an American or something like that.

Yeah, proud to be an American.

In April of 2011? In April minutes after we found out that Osama bin Laden was dead.

That's right. Wow. He had the I didn't know that one. Yeah, he scooped. You kids stay on the internet too long. You're into too long. You're This these.

Two chats. I thought I was looking forward to hanging out.

With him. Just got word that will shock the world. Dash, land of the free. Home of the brave. Damn proud to be an proud exclamation point. You know who wasn't a class act? Osama bin Laden? Osama bin Laden. Yeah. They would not chat soon.

They would not chat soon. Absolutely not.

We reached the end of yet another week of Pablo another week of I want to something out. David Samson, our arch nemesis, said something very nice about us on whatever the we call Twitter now. And so I just want to point out that David, we appreciate that and we will never stop rubbing it in your goddamn face how much we're finding out all of the time because of Michael time Ryan Cortez, Sam Daewig, Juan Galinda, Patrick Kim, Juan Galinda, Rachel Kim, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Scott, Studio Engineering by Tubinello, Studio Systems, Postproduction by NGW Post, and our theme song, Of Course, by John Bravo. We will talk to all of you next week.