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What's going on? I like the one ear side. That's professional. A lot of guys do that.

Help my hearing. Hey, it's fading in my old age.

Do you have fucked up ears because of the cauliflower? Does it fuck up your hearing?

Yeah, just one of them. I thought it was cool until the. The inner ear started to swell and it was messed with my hearing, and I was like, that's not cool anymore.

Did you get it fixed?

I just faced it at the women I'm talking to.

Did you get it fixed or.

It eventually drained out, but that's as good as it's gonna get, I think.

Yeah, I always wore ear guards. I was always scared of the ears. Cause it's just there's a design, like, it helps capture sound and bring it into your ear.

I didn't know the Airpods were coming through a curveball and how cool this was.

Oh, right. Cause I stuff them in there, I.

Jam them in, but popped back out.

Yeah. You gotta wear it over the years. So let's talk about your tournament.

The tournament.

Where did this come from, first of all? Cause you've competed at Abu Dhabi. This is what I don't understand. You're gonna go head to head with ADCC, which is the biggest grappling organization in the world, by the way. That's Gordon Ryan's belt up there, if you wanna look at it.

Gordon Ryan. I might take that home with me. Yeah. How can I get the money to buy it? Well, I mean, what started it? Well, obviously, you can't win a tournament. Put your own tournament on that. You can win and probably lose anyway. I mean, really, it's for the growth of the sport. We're getting some beef involved. Some two pack biggie, Drake Kendrick energy to this. But really to compensate the athletes well and to raise some money for charity along the way.

And who's funding this thing?

That's one of those things, you know, your girl takes a trip to the UAE, she comes back with a handbag. You don't talk about it. You don't ask too many questions.

You know, you brought with you a million dollars in cash, which I've never seen before. I've never seen a million dollars in one place. I've never even seen a million dollar check. Yeah, I guess tip it out.

Let's.

Make sure we don't spill any. Ladies and gentlemen, that is $1 million in cash. That is so ridiculous. Look at that. That's so crazy. Wow. Whoever is running this really trusts you.

They should.

Those are loose. Like, a lot of these are just.

Kind of flying around, flopping around here, you know? They have way too much faith in me.

Yeah, a lot of faith in you.

I mean, this was the prover I had the idea. I was like, I'll bring a prop million dollars on Joe Rogan. But people, I was thinking then they already don't believe I have the money. So if I pulled out a prop million and you were like, oh, that's fake money, then I'm like, oh, my tournament's fucked. So we had the source, had to do some bad things for that.

So how does one even get a million dollars out of a bank? That's got to be a pain in the ass, right?

Yeah. So my buddy that's helping me out with this BaSICAllY called his bank. He said, I need a million dollars on Thursday. They said, yo, that takes two to three weeks. And he's like, get me the million on Thursday or I'll find a bank that can. And that. I mean, that put the energy in him to get it. Here we are.

So what does this guy do that he has all this loot?

I really don't want to say. I'm going to keep it all directed at me. It's all above board legal, you know what I mean? But we're sort of keeping it mysterious. I want any negative energy towards the tournament coming my direction, not the anonymous sugar daddy in the background.

Okay, so YoU don't want to say, like, what the business is or does the business profit off of this at all? Does this benefit the business to do this? Whatever you feel.

I mean, we're running it as a nonprofit. So, like, obviously, for people that want to support the sport of Jiu JItsu, we're going to donate basically all the ticket sales of this event towards different charities. So we really want to do this as a non profit, because my thoughts were, if Jiu Jitsu doesn't make a profit, we might as well make a nonprofit.

Okay, well, does Jiu JItsu make no profit? Like, Abu Dhabi doesn't turn a profit. Right. It's done primarily because of the Sheik's love of the sport.

Like the. Yeah, it's like a passion project. But I mean, sort of my problem with the latest event is, like, we're selling so many tickets, and they. Their event is in T Mobile. T MObile's super expensive, as far as I know. I remember their event organizer posted the amount they paid for T Mobile, and it was basically two of these.

So I was just to rent out the venue.

Just to rent out.

And then you were at the Thomas and Mac?

Yeah. So the previous event we're at, they were at Thomas and Mac. So I just thought, hey, I might as well check how much Thomas and Mac cost. And it was a lot cheaper. So in my opinion, we're really doing this because the prize money's been the same for so long. A lot of events don't pay a lot of money, but obviously, ADCC is the biggest, and this sells a lot of ticket sales, but really, they made a lateral move in the venue that didn't really grow much in the way of seeding. And none of that money, really.

How much does Thomas and Max eat?

I think we'll have about 11,000 seeds for this one.

And T Bumble's, what, 18?

I think. 18, yeah. So not. Not massive difference. And really, ADCC prize money stayed the same. So their prize money, you have to win four matches to get ten k. Not that I'd know, because I could never fucking win it, but we're gonna pay. We're gonna do two divisions and pay a hundred times that amount of money to the division winners.

So ten k is the winner of.

ADCC, and we're gonna pay $10,001 to show up to that tournament.

10,001.

Throw an extra dollar. That's for me personally.

So anybody who competes gets $10,000. Really? So even if you just get smoked?

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of the. The other guys like me in these tournaments that don't make the final, compensate everyone, you know?

Well, that is nice, but ADCC has never made money. Right. So for them, raising the money would just be losing more money.

Yeah. I mean, but if. I mean, if. If you could sell 11,000 seats, you know what I mean? Like, if you could sell streaming rights to an event, I feel like some of that should go back towards the athletes rather than just spending it all on production. Like, a lot of people talk about the cost of production and it's important to grow a sport, but I really feel like at least the athlete compensation should go up a little bit. You know, like, in terms of ticket sales, some of that should go back.

Towards the athletes, even if the ADCC is not making any money at all.

But in terms of. They do make money, but it's where they spend it. They choose to spend it on production rather than the athletes.

Right. But it's not profitable. Like, in terms of the organization itself is not really profitable, I don't believe.

Well, I would imagine if they had chose Thomas and Mac, with the streaming rights and the cost of the venue that they've spent on T Mobile, for sure they would have made a profit off this event. You could curtail production costs down. Like, it's not going to be that crazy if you choose the right venue. My opinion is grappling is amazing, but I don't think we're ready for T Mobile. That's a massive, expensive venue.

Right? Well, the Thomas and Mac was very impressive last year. It was very impressive. The whole overall production and just the scope of it and the amount of fans that came out to watch ADCC, it was pretty impressive.

It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. Obviously, I've never competed in that many in front of that many people before. It was awesome. It was awesome spectacle. That was basically, my opinion is like, why are we making a lateral move, in my opinion, when we could still keep the same venue?

So what was the idea about going head to head with ADCC? If you want to grow the sport, wouldn't it be better to do it in an alternative weekend? That way the people that compete at ADCC can also compete at your event?

Well, we kind of. I mean, yeah, obviously athletes can't do both, but in terms of. For the fans, the fans will be able to go to our event Friday, Saturday, still see ADCC finals on Sunday. But in terms of doing it at the same weekend, I mean, we're really trying to make a stand that, like, the athletes can unify in this sense, and we can get compensated better. Because, again, I mean, none of the athletes care where we compete. You know what I mean? Like, we want to make. As the sport grows, grappling's growing. Obviously, thanks to people like you. You've blown it up. Whenever you shout us out, our followers go up. So, I mean, the events are getting more eyes on it, people are more ticket sales. Like, we should get at least some token gesture of a payment increase.

Well, I think the best case scenario out of this is that ADCC does ramp it up and that the sport does get more eyeballs because people are aware of this huge increase in pay and then over. I always feel like competition is good. I just don't necessarily like the idea of going head to head. Cause I feel like it just kind of messes with the athletes. Cause, you know, it puts them in a situation where they have to choose, first of all, between ADCC and the Craig Jones invitational. And if they do that ADCC is going to probably hold a grudge.

I mean, hopefully not.

Well, hopefully they. But likely they will. I mean, doesn't it make sense that they would? I mean, if you're kind of crippling their organization by taking the elite guys and offering them potential for, like, how many people are going to jump ship, do you know?

Oh, I mean, who have we got confirmed already? We've got Fion Davies, past champion. The Tackett brothers were the first two. We got Nikki Ryan. I'm going to announce today, Nikki Rod's jumping across. We got Luke Rockhold in there. We threw him in because he's just. He's honestly pretty impressive. He tapped me out in the gym. I was like, fuck it, we'll throw him in. In terms of the under, we got Joseph Chen. So, I mean, a lot of people are going to make the move. And what's interesting to me, I can't say any names in particular, but a lot of the old legends obviously want to be a part of this event. I think they believe they want to support the cause. You know, I mean, you say make the athletes make a choice. I mean, really, they should be able to make the choice. If there's an event with such a huge amount of prize money on display. You know, the argument is prestige, first prize money. And my argument is, if the prize money's there, that becomes the most prestigious event.

Yeah, it does ramp up the prestige, but will this happen again? Is this a one time thing, or are you guys planning on doing multiple ones of these?

Yeah, we want to do it. We don't ADCC every two years, so most of the time the guys have to wait every two. We want to do it every year.

Well, that would be good. Then there'd be a year where it's not in competition.

We don't want to just kill another organization. And then I just disappear off into the sunset, maybe sneak a couple million. But we want to do it every year for sure. The goal is really to raise money for charities and do some film projects around the world using jiu jitsu, really? Helping out some underprivileged kids and stuff.

Well, the whole idea of using it for charity is beautiful. That's amazing. But is this guy willing to fork up this kind of, like, does he have a commitment to do this more than once?

I mean, basically he says if, hey, we do a good job of this one, you can do it every year. He's super invested in sport of jiu Jitsu. Loves it.

And this guy's just throwing loot away.

Throwing a lot of loot away. Thank God. Thank God.

That's a crazy thing to commit to, though. I mean, even no matter how rich you are. I mean, because if you're giving away $3 million in prize money, is that what it is? So, I mean, so how's it go altogether?

We basically got a budget of 3 million and we decided to give 2.3 million of that to the athletes. And the rest we're going to spend on production. Obviously, we're going to have sponsors come in, we're going to work with particular sponsors, but we're going to, again, the ticket sales, that's going to charity. And we're really allowing some of the athletes to choose. Like, if we have an influential grappler and stuff, we're not really trying to leverage the money we have. We're saying, hey, if we get you on board, we're happy to donate a percentage of the ticket sales to a charity of your choice. So we give them a bit of freedom in who they want to help.

Well, that's nice. And if this does go well, like, what is. What's the. When you say go well, like, what are the guidelines? What are you trying to achieve in terms of, like, going well? To do this again, I mean, based.

On the investment and how much money we can raise for charity is really the goal there. Like, if we can sell out Thomas and Mac and we can demonstrate that we can do this in a cost effective way, we can bring in more sponsors. Definitely going to keep doing this every year.

Well, like I said, I think competition is always great. And I think just more eyeballs and more people paying attention to it is great for the sport, obviously. I love jiu jitsu, and I think, you know, the athletes getting paid a million dollars to win first place is fantastic. I mean. Cause, you know, we both know that most athletes don't make much money off of actual competition. The money that they do make, they usually make in seminars and onlyFans. Yeah. Holy fits you.

Yeah. That's a lot of underwear I had.

To sell, you know, onlyfans and what else? I guess dvd's.

Yeah, I mean, that's the number one revenue source for athletes would be instructionals. But, like, again, that's like, you can win the biggest tournaments in the world. It doesn't necessarily translate to seminars, doesn't translate to instructionals. That's the sad thing. It's like, you hold certain events so high that you're like, when I win that I'm gonna make it. But then there'll be some asshole like me that never won but outsells you. It doesn't make, you know what I mean? It's like, it's not, your life's not set if you win one of these events, but if you win a million as a grappler, you're pretty well set up, especially if you're like a grappler from a poorer country like Amelia newest. And Brazil is going to go a long, long way.

And also it's just going to elevate the whole profile of the sport. Just people knowing that a million dollars is going towards the first place grapplers. And then has UFC fight Pass had a positive impact? Has that helped at all?

For sure? I mean, obviously it helps so much. My dream is always taking on MMA guys. You know, like they got the clout, they got the big name. So obviously UFC fight pass help that happen. But I mean, techies put a lot of work to the firepass events and those are very, very popular. I think that would be the pinnacle of sort of professional super fight events.

And what is, like if you fight in UFC fight Pass? Like, what is a big payday? UFC fight pass?

I know some of the athletes might get, I don't even know how I should say it. Techie will probably kill me. But I mean, it's broad. Like I could go from ten to six figures, really. And again, that's, I mean, that's the thing. When you compete for an event like a tournament, you might face four guys. Like, for me personally, I might face four guys that I could have made much more money facing off in a super fight setting. So really, like in terms of the investment, the commitment, the training, the time to prepare for potentially four opponents to win something like $10,000 when if I just had four super fights, right, make so much more money, obviously I wouldn't get the medal.

And the amount of money that you're going to spend in camp anyway, just with nutrition supplements, steroids, the damage you do to your body, all the jazz, everything, everything. You mean you're spending $10,000 anyway.

Your blood pressure goes up, your liver values go up, you push it to the red. Line up for a thing like ADCC.

Well, that is the craziest thing about the sport is that steroids are openly tolerated. It's probably the only elite professional sport where, particularly because of Gordon, because Gordon's been so open about steroids that everyone knows that the athletes are on juice.

Well, I'm sponsored by a local company called Evertine and this is the sad thing, I tell people, hey, I'm on TRT and I'm sponsored by them and no one believes me. They're like, you look so out of shape. There's no way. He's just joking. And I'm like, no, believe me, I'm taking.

Do you lift weights?

I mean, sometimes, yeah, every now and then. Yeah. Honestly, I'm the worst example of athlete ever. I don't stretch, don't do any recovery. I don't sleep.

You don't stretch at all?

No, I just go easy the first round. I feel like them pushing on my legs, hip mobility. I think if you get a bad injury, that's a sign maybe trying to hang it up, you know?

So when you train, all you do is just jujitsu. You don't, you don't like, I do.

A little bit of lifting, but man, fucking, I don't even track anything. I'll just be like, oh, that seems like enough lifting for today.

Really?

Yeah, that's it.

Do you ever wonder, like if you did, like, hire like a serious, like, strength and conditioning coach and really get after it? It would make a difference in your performance.

Maybe, but I mean, like, I mean, if there's a million dollars on the line, maybe, but that's a lot of fun.

But it's your whole life. I mean, you're a professional jiu jitsu guy.

I mean, I love the technique and the strategy aspect of it, you know? Like sometimes when I've lifted or taken more steroids than usual, it's like I'm starting to overly rely on my strength. What I love about jiu jitsu is laying traps, tricking people, making people feel silly. That's the part I like, right. Rather than just I want to look Jack, just for me, not for match.

But don't you think even with the laying traps and just overall your ability to move would be enhanced?

It's true, but if, I mean, if I look to Jack, no one will buy the instructionals. They'd be like, can't fucking do what that guy does. I got to look like a weathered old man out there.

Wow, that's a crazy approach.

We got, we got another announcement here today. The biggest super fight in grappling history. We signed it, actually, I signed this maybe an hour and a half ago. So I got the, yeah, but busted out.

Uh oh. The biggest super fighting grappling history. Really?

Yeah. It might be one of the biggest.

Events in, what is the biggest so far? So far it's probably Gordon and Galval.

In terms of hojibusesha. Yeah, but now we're talking. The most decorated female athlete of all time, Gabby Garcia, has put pen to paper to face me on my own event. So we're talking 1011 time world champion, four time ADCC champion.

You have been joking around about this forever. This is actually going to happen.

100% going to happen. We booked it. We signed this contract earlier. So, like, I mean, I had to do a lot of things to get it done, you know?

What'd you have to do?

I had to talk to Gabby a lot. I had to go over there, give her a background.

You have to dance with her.

I mean, it's getting this done. Like Harvey Weinstein producer, you know? But I'll do it for the fans. But we got that booked, so, I.

Mean, so that's really gonna happen.

Yeah. She's six, 4250 pounds. I don't know. I don't know what she weighs. Yeah. So I'll take her on. Wow, I feel good. I probably won't train for. I'll be playing in this damn event.

Eh, you won't train.

I would train that hard. I'm happy she's doing it, though. Like, oh, it took a long time. We've been talking about this for two and a half years. Feels like a range marriage or something.

I know. I was always thinking that it was just a joke.

I know. We've got to get. We've got to get rid of the sexual tension somehow, you know? So we're going to throw down.

That's one way.

Yes. I mean, that's in the contract. If I lose after, do some things.

Oh, no.

Maybe sell that on our onlyfans.

But good luck. Good luck. So when this all goes down, are you going to stream it live? And how are you going to do that?

Free on YouTube.

Really?

Yeah, we want to put it free on YouTube because everything I want to do about this event is to grow the sport. So, like, jiu jitsu scoring is confusing. It's hard to keep up. Some events don't even know their own scoring. And to be honest, I compete in events where I don't even know the rules. I'm just hoping for the best. But this one we're going to do for the lead up matches, the non finals, qualifying matches, three by five minute rounds, and we're going to have the judges score according to your traditional jiu jitsu. You know, like, if you get a good position, it might be a. If there's a four point discrepancy, something like that.

Are you using a specific rule set or are you guys making your own?

Making our own one. We want to make it our own completely. So we want to take what Jiu jitsu guys already know. So we'll have three judges use some sort of pre existing point system they understand, but we'll have the judges translate into a ten point mask system so that MMA fans will understand. So, say if there's a after round one, the guy finishes on the other guy's back, the ref stops, we get up, we have a minute break. That's a strong position. We score that at ten eight, and we'll do open scoring. So jujutsu guys are used to knowing the score as the match progresses. They don't like the surprises. Like MMA, it's surprise at the end. Jujutsu guys, they don't want things to be too different. So we're basically keeping it very similar to what they already understand while trying to introduce it in a way that's friendly to fans that tune in, because fans will tune in and be like, what the fuck's happening? He won the round. Ten eight.

I wish that MMA had open scoring because it would expose a lot of really bad scoring.

Yeah. You know where you're at.

Yeah. Because there's so many times where it's just not. And the argument against it, I think, is silly because the argument against it is that the person would coast if they were ahead. But my feeling is that would make the person who's behind really get after it because they know they're behind, you know, and then in fights where, you know, a guy's ahead and the guy's getting tooled up, that's already the case. There's no, you know, like, if, like, Adesanya is fighting somebody and he's just dominating the fight. We all know that. We all know that. And the only thing that could fuck him is a bad judge.

Some crazy judge.

Yeah. And we've seen that. We've seen like, two scores that are like, that's right. And then one score, one judge, it's like, what the fuck was that guy watching?

That's the guy we're going to hire for our. That guy's going to be cheap.

Why? That guy's going to be dangerous. Why ten eight? Like, I don't even like ten eight for MMA.

I mean, just for a way that we can grow. Like, we can have an easy to digest. I mean, I guess MMA still pretty confusing, but we want MMA fans. We want to steal MMA fans. Like, that's been my whole strategy is, I'll take on guys in the UFC because I know they're drug tested and I'm not. And I'll be like. And they're famous. It's like a perfect matchup. But we want to do that because we want to steal their fans. And we're also changing. It's very fucking expensive, actually. Every jiu jitsu event is basically on an elevated stage or just on mats. And we have this problem where there's all these weird resets. Like, guys might fall off the stage. Yeah, they crash into the table.

That's crazy.

So, inspired by karate combat, we're gonna do a rectangular mat space with that angled wall. Cause there's nowhere to run. And we're gonna call this rectangular mat space the alley. You basically only head to the back alley to fight or fuck sometimes.

But isn't the angled wall a bit of a problem? I saw your match with Phil, bro.

Yeah.

And the angled wall, like, all of a sudden he's fucked. Cause you're just gonna go down. Like, it's not like a wall. Like a wall. I don't like the cage in MMa. I've said multiple times, I really think they should be fighting in a basketball court. Just make it all matted up. Have a long red line.

We're gonna be big. 30 by 40. It's gonna be massive.

That is big. Yeah.

So we heard the basketball court, but we threw some angles on the end. Well, punishes them. We wanna punish guys for backing up.

Okay.

So, like, again, like you said, with a cage, they back up, but they remain vertical. And guys are so, like, you can use that angle and not get taken down. But if you back up, if you're running away, we want it to be detrimental to you while not having any referee interruption. So if I'm like you said, I see I won the first round. Ten, eight. I'm coasting. I'm backing up. That guy can chase me, and there's nowhere I can go. And if I back up, it's detrimental to me.

I want to ask you a specific question about the Philip Rowe fight, because he posted his arm down to, like, against the angle, and I was like, well, you're kind of fucked if you're doing that. And then you threw up the triangle and you trapped him. But, like, did you train for that? Like, so this is. This is the setup, and this is in karate combat, which is, by the way, in Austin this Thursday. I'm gonna go down and check that out. So, like this, like, when he posted his arm down, I'm like, oh, no, that's.

Honestly, here's the funny thing about it is Asan, the promoter, said to me, goes, bro, we got to sell the angled wall for grappling. He's like, can you try to submit him off the wall? And I was like, fuck, yeah, I'll do that. But I was like. I was like, I got no plans of that.

They asked you to do it?

They said that'd be cool if he could do it. And then afterwards, he's like, did you plan that? I was like, yeah, sure. But, I mean, anytime someone posts a hand on the ground and we have an overhook and we can put weight on that hand, they can't lift it off the ground, so we can shoot a triangle pretty easy.

Yeah.

As soon as I saw him. I've got an overhook here. We've got the russian tire. As soon as I see him put that right hand on the floor, I was like, we can do something flying. And I saw because of the angle, you can be a bit more brave, you know, like, it's not as. It's not as sharper fall.

Right?

Like, I'm. I'm 32. I probably shouldn't be doing flying shit, but you throw an angle in there, I'll give it a crack.

Well, especially with everything padded up like that on the walls.

Yeah. But, man, me and Phil were laughing before this match. Like, we were. I had a couple beers before this. I thought, we're just gonna have a good time.

You had a couple beers before the match?

Yeah. Phil said he was gonna drink a tequila shot to start the match. But then I saw him put water in his cup. I was like, I'll be misled here. And then I. We went out there and his. I didn't even know the time of the match. There was eight minutes. And the guys, I got, twelve minute match. I'm like, oh, fuck. And then his coach started cornering serious. I was like, what have I got myself into? A. So I thought, better give it a crowd. I was gonna have fun, play around a bit. But he was. He was ready to go.

You really had a couple beers?

Yeah, I do. Do sometimes, you know, do you really take the edge off? Yeah.

Does it fuck with your performance at all?

You know what? I never know what helps my performance or makes it worse, you know? I never have taken the edge off.

Might help.

I think so, because I do a long training camp sometimes. I'm, like, thinking every day, putting pressure on myself. But, like, I finished that match because I hit a flying thing we just got hammered that night. I was celebrating. Then the next day, I was like, fuck, I have to face Lovato next week. I was like, what have I done? So it's like sometimes, I guess the Jon Jones approach, you know, having some fun the week before, takes the edge off, relaxes me.

Ilya Taporia does that, too, with the wine. Yeah, he gets drunk on Thursday night when he weighs in on Friday.

That's why I don't like what he did to my man. But I respect the drinking of the wine, for sure.

Yeah. That fight, I wanted to talk to you about that, too. I wanted to talk to you about just the Volkanovski fight and training him in general. Like, did you try. Did you try in any way to discourage him from taking the Makachev fight on ten days notice?

No, I mean, I'm not involved in that process at all. You know, like, I got the call that it was happening. Like, he called me, man. I was jet lagged at the time. I just got into Austin for a day, and I get a call at 04:00 a.m. from Volks. He's like, I think I have Mackechev booked in two weeks. And I was like, fuck it. Tell me. I'll just book the next flight. I just got on the plane down there. So I'm not involved in the matchmaking decision process at all.

Were you apprehensive about him taking that fight on such short notice?

I mean, I wouldn't say apprehensive. I, like, believe him in. Believe in him fully. I knew it would be a very difficult challenge. I didn't know what sort of shape he was in at the time. I didn't see him for a while, but, like, I believe in him that he can do it. And it's like, I'm gonna just do everything I can to get him ready for that moment. And, yeah, I mean, it is the risk of the game, you know, especially you take a short notice fight like that.

Had he been training at all?

I honestly don't know. I don't think he. Like, he wasn't in the same shape he was for the previous Mackechef I. The previous Mackerel fight, I was down in Wollongong with his team, freestyle for, like, six to eight weeks, helping him prepare for that one. But, I mean, this one. Yeah, such short notice.

Well, that made it such a huge difference, the six to eight weeks. Just the fact that he was able to survive on the ground the way he was. And not just that, but just not just survive, but be completely safe. He was never even close to being threatened with a submission, you know, and the fact that he was, like, laughing it off and punching him from behind, and it's crazy.

Yeah. I mean, I can't take too much credit for that. The guy just is an animal. Yeah. He's just a monster. He's so hard to hold down. Even for me to hold down. I don't get it. I'm like, fuck you, 145. This shouldn't be the case, you know, rugby. Yes. Some rugby energy.

Hey, well, also, he used to weigh 214 pounds, and you still got those fucking tendons from being a big gorilla.

That's true. Yeah, the rugby days, that's crazy. I mean, I trained. When I trained at his gym, one of the rugby players come in, actually, and I was just fucking around, rolling with him, and he put me in a chinstrap, and I was stuck. I was like, fuck, thank God these guys make real money in other sports. I have to deal with this shit.

Yeah, it's a hard fucking sport, man. It's a hard sport that Americans don't necessarily appreciate. They don't understand. Like, those are guys that could compete in the NFL, and they said they're playing rugby because they live in a different country. But it's when Volkanovski fought the first time, and he was perfectly prepared, it was an amazing fight. I thought he won. I thought it was very close, but I thought he won. I gave. I think round two was the difference, and I could see round two going either way, but I gave it to Volk. But I was like, when they announced it, the rematch, part of me was like, ooh, that's a great fight. But the other part of me was like, e. This is the number one, in my opinion, this is the fight for number one, pound for pound, right? I believe Volk won the first fight, although very close. I don't think it's a robbery, but very close. And I think that puts him as the number one pound for pound fighter in the world. And then he loses the fight to Islam. Caught with that head kick, and then he gets knocked out by taporia, and now he's not even in the conversation anymore.

So this is a short amount of time, you know, and then everything kind of falls apart. And I think it wouldn't have fallen apart if not for the rematch. It wasn't for the re. If he just waited for tapuria. I think I got to think that head kick has a factor. I mean, to get brained like that with a shin to the dome, which is the worst way to get knocked out. You know, it's the. So much power in legs. I mean, your legs are. You're carrying. Your legs are carrying your body around all day. I don't think people that have never been kicked understand how much more power is in a leg.

Yeah, I wouldn't know.

You get head kicked like that and then you fight the guy who's obviously the most dangerous boxer in the division in the next fight and get Ko'd.

I mean, yeah, it's crazy. I didn't know the. I've had a couple concussions from grappling, like, accidents, but I don't. Knees and headbutts, always that one asshole, you know, going crazy, but I don't know. So really, the effects of that, it's so hard to judge. Like, it's like, I don't know what testing they can do, but it's like.

They can't do much. Unfortunately, there are some tests, but the reality is every time you get knocked out, it's easier for that person to get knocked out again.

And psychology, I think for the opponents, like, for me, coaching volks, there were matches where, like, even with the fights, when, like, say, well, take Adam in the sub, and it's like when he keeps doing these impossible things, you believe in the myth of your guy more and more, and other fighters do too. They go, oh, we couldn't submit him. Look how deep, or take him.

His heart is just unstoppable.

But I think when a guy gets clipped like that, everyone else goes, they suddenly have a bit more self belief. So I think it's like two factors.

Yeah, I think you're probably right, but I think Toporia thought he was going to do that to him anyway. But I just love to have seen him fully recover from that. Like when Manny Pacquiao got knocked out by marquez, Freddie Roach wouldn't let him do anything for a year. He's like, you're going to take one year off. He's like, this is the only way you have to. And Freddie Roach, who has trauma induced Parkinson's from his boxing career, he's well aware of the impact of brain damage. And, you know, it's so tricky because I'm just such a huge Volk fan that I just. Look, I wish I had his ear. I don't know if you would have listened to me, but if I had his ear.

I think that's what makes those guys special, though, is that they don't. They're like, it's the self belief 100%.

That's what makes you a champion. You cannot become a Volkanovski without this unstoppable belief in yourself.

Me and him are the complete opposite. Hey, if someone was like, bro, you're probably gonna lose. I'm like, yeah, you make a good point. I'm like, how much are they paying me? You know, we're complete opposite in every. He takes everything super serious, sporting everything. I don't know how we've blended together. I'm able to coach him somehow.

Well, you're very technical. I mean, the thing about your, you know, joking around and being silly about it all is like, you are, but your technique is very, very good. Obviously, you. You obviously are one of the elite guys in the world when it comes to technique. So it's not. You are serious.

Yeah. I mean, personality type, you know.

Yeah.

But I guess we have the australian. Australian bond. He has faith in me, more faith in me than the guy that gave me this. I think they both probably shouldn't.

What is Volk up to now?

He's in Thailand training at Bangtao with his so Volkswagen wrestling coach, Frank Hickman. They have a gym in Thailand, so he's out in Bangtao getting some work in. I want to get him a grappling match. I said to him, I said, man, like, if we're going to take some time away because of the concussions, let's get you a grappling match. And my thought was how, like, cool would it be to see him and Ortega have a grappling match?

Oh, my God, that'd be incredible.

I would just love to see it in that setting, because Ortega obviously struggled to submit him in MMA.

Yeah.

Let's see what happens in a grappling match.

Right. With no gloves, too. Yeah, that would be very interesting. Ortega is very good on the ground. He's very sneaky, too.

Yes. Yeah, he's super slick. He pulled. He catches some crazy shit out there. He'd be losing a fight, like two, three rounds. Get one look at a guillotine finish. It's crazy.

No? And his guillotine is fucking death. I mean, when Volkanovski got out of that, the mounted guillotine, his face looked like a grape and just would not tap. Would not tap.

I had no idea how he got out, but I told everyone, I was like, yeah, obviously, that's me. Buy the dvd, support his gravel. And coach, I take credit for that.

He's an animal. 99.9% of the world would have tapped.

He's like that in the gym. I remember, I'll choke him in the gym sometimes. And he'll go from putting his chin in to taking it out as your grip's in there. Like, he'll try and switch it from, like, I guess, like the front choke to the. To the blood vessels. He just changes how you choke him and can survive down there.

Wow.

I don't know. He does it. He should teach me that shit.

I think it's just his brain, too.

Yeah. Too tough.

Yeah, he's a fucking animal. And so does he have a plan to come back? Does he?

I don't. I don't know what's going on. I imagine it's probably Holloway versus taporia. I think that's gonna happen. And then I think, I hope person. We get Vox a grappling match. Maybe we get him at this event. I'm hoping we get him. We get some MMA guys at this event.

Is he thinking about doing something like that? You don't have a whole lot of time, right? When is this event?

August 16, 17th. Yeah. So not much time. But I mean, if he's in shape, he's trained, he's out Bangtown, Thailand. Get some rounds in. I think it's fine, especially against another MMA guy. They both have the same type of training, you know, it's not like he's taken on a pure grappler that's only grappling.

So do you have a budget to do something like that? To do super fights as well?

Actually, yeah. So we're. We're gonna start taking sponsors to try and get more super fights. And I'm in talks with some legends of the game right now. Like some guys that you'd be shocked. Can you say hit me up? I wouldn't say any names, but potentially, I'll tell you, one of them has a mexican sound and last name, but I'll talk to you about that. Okay.

I know that one.

Yeah. All the legends, they want to. So many people want to come out of time for this. I think they just know, like, especially when I explain the rules, explain that it's in that alley's like the sunken floor. You know, they like that format, obviously. You throw a million dollars on instagram, you get some messages. You know what I mean? You get some. Hey, brother, what's going on? You know?

Yeah. I think people are going to be shocked at how good Luke Rockhold is.

Yeah, he. Man, he's so tough.

He was very good on the ground. I remember when he got Weidman down and mounted him and Weidman could not get up I was like, this is his ground game is very underrated. And because he's just known as an.

MMA guy and he's going to come train with us. He's going to come to b team five weeks. So he's going to prepare with us for this event. So we'll watch him and Nicky Rod kill each other every day. I love to watch that shit.

Wow. Yeah. I always wondered how he would have done if he had gone straight grappling, because the people that I know that train with him said, dude, I think he could have competed with the best in the world as a grappler. Just as a pure grappler.

Yeah. I mean, look at the guys he's training with. Khabib in Islam, Cain Velasquez, DC, all those guys. It's like, people think it's like MMA's in isolation. Like, those skills won't translate. They translate. Especially with athletes like that, especially in.

Such a grappling dominated camp.

He's going to surprise some people. What I keep laughing about is like, it's a million dollars for first place, 10,000 for second place. I'm like, who's tapping right for a million dollars? Yeah. I think what we're going to do, I haven't finalized this yet, but I think if you're in a submission and the round ends, we keep going. Get out of the submission.

Well, there's been so many times where guys were almost submitted. Where you think, yeah, this guy, I.

Let him out of that armbar to join the team. Look at that. I didn't get any money out of that.

How bad was his arm? Fucked up after that? That arm bar was so tight.

Well, that was the funny thing, right?

Is that was Ebi. Like, what's the prize of Ebi?

Well, he had had some. If I had submitted him, I would have won. Think. He had only had two submissions in regulation, so he was, he only made ten k. So I, like, we could have made a business still there. Just let it go. But, man, I. His arm popped on the day. He said it was fine. Next week I show up, we both competing in another event again. And there was like three, four locker rooms, and I would just travel by myself. I wouldn't even have a coach. I just post an Instagram story who can corner me for this event? Like the one against Gordon. I had Denny prokopos and he was saying 10th planet stuff to me and I didn't even know what language he was speaking in the corner there.

Oh, right.

So I was in control. Yeah. He's saying, do these things. I'm like, what's happening, bro? And then I show up to this next event. Yeah, Kasai grappling in New York. And of all the locker rooms, they throw me in there with the Danaher guys, and I'm just like, this is a bit weird. Like, I had this guy on armbar last week, then he choked me, and now it's just me in a locker room with him. I was very awkward, but then broke the ice and came into train the next week.

And you were with them for a long time? You were with them for, like, what, five years with Danaher?

Two years.

Two years. So what, did it start before Puerto Rico?

Yes. Yeah. I lived in New York for. Oh, I mean, man, my memory is hazy, but we did Puerto Rico. We survived Puerto Rico for six months. And before that was, I would come and go from New York. I was probably with a team two and a half years. But, yeah, things get weird out there in the jungle, you know?

Yeah.

Bucklifts downstairs.

Well, everyone's confused as to what happened with you guys. That's what. Like, there's no real version of the truth.

We got a book deal. We got a movie deal coming out. You know, I'm gonna exploit that story to the bitter end.

You have a book deal for real?

No, I'm joking. But I could. The story's weird enough, you know.

What. What happened with you guys?

I mean, there's so many things we really can't discuss. You know, a lot of problems, obviously. A lot of problems. Obviously. Two brothers split up. There's gonna be some serious issues there. But, yeah, it's not really my place to stay, but hopefully one day it comes out. I think it'll be interesting story. Who knows? This shit might kick things off. It might be world war three again.

So when you left, like, how did you leave to start your own place when you guys started B team? Was that the plan all along?

No, I honestly never even wanted to start a gym. I'd already told the guys, like, at Danahurst, that I was like, hey, I'm gonna. This will be my last ADCC. And then I just want to travel around, see the world, visit interesting destinations, teach seminars. Like, I felt like I'd already built a brand. But then when the team split, I felt like I sort of wanted to help them kickstart something. So we came here, we started the b team. I've been with the b team. We've had the b team two, three years. But I'm not there too much anymore. You know, I helped Kickstarter. We got the gym. The guys have it, you know, so, like, I like traveling around.

So are you basically semi retired?

For sure, yeah, for sure. I mean, obviously, when you put on, like, if you put on an event that pisses off every other promotion in the sport, it's going to probably be hard to get matches in the future. So I'll probably compete for my own show. And that's it. That's the plan. We want to keep doing these shows.

Well, I think you're going to piss off ADCC for sure by going head to head with them. But I don't think it would piss off fight pass, or number one. Or do you think.

Well, I mean, if whoever's streaming ADCC's obviously not going to be. Not going to be happier. So more competition. But again, I still think long term, this story is going to grow the sport. Yes, it's an interesting story. It's fun. Let's see what happens. It will either be the best event ever or the Fyre festival. I'm hoping for the former.

The fire festival. Are you? Besides the Gabby Garcia thing, which is, no disrespect, kind of a gimmick fight.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Um, are you done competing?

I'll probably do another match. That's Gabby. Gabby will be one day. If someone's down, I'll do a match on the other day as well. We'll see. But I also want to leave it open because I am talking to some crazy big names and I'm like, man, if we can put that together. Mmm. Like, I'm gonna try and save some space, but, like, obviously I have to run this thing.

I wish you could tell me some of those names on the air.

It's everyone you could possibly think of. I'll tell you after. There's a potential matchup that I'm working on. That's insane. I mean, the craziest shit ever. Really crazy. Yeah.

Want to tell me now? We'll cut it out.

Yeah. Can we do that? Yeah, I'm working on.

Holy shit. Sorry, folks. You can't know. Damn. That would be insane. That would be insane. Wow. Is the former. Is he training?

Training? Yep. People have said, man, he feels good. It'd be like, obviously crazy. Inspirational story. I'd love it.

Wow. Yeah. That's insane. That's insane to, you know, and then it's like Abu Dhabi for a lot of people is the Olympics of grappling. And one of the things is it's every two years. I mean, I remember when John Jacques won Abu Dhabi. You know, I just started. I think this is like, what year was this when he started training? When he fought in Abu Dhabi early.

Two thousands or mid two thousands.

Yeah, I was thinking, I was like a bluebelt at the time. And when John Jock went over there, we were just so proud that he went over there. He had this advantage over a lot of the key guys in that he only has one hand. And so he never relied on grabbing collars. Everything was over hooks and under hooks. And he had sort of already developed a no gee game that he was applying to the geez. You know, obviously he could do all the GI techniques as well, but he was more of a no gee guy in the beginning. And it was so interesting watching that style, you know, watching no gee, which is if Abu Dhabi didn't do that and if they didn't have this prestigious event and make it no gee, I think the sport would have really struggled because it's so hard for people to appreciate what's going on with the gee. It's very slow. And when you see a guy getting choked by a collar, it's just.

It looks silly, too.

Yeah.

But, yeah. Man, I'm so happy Abu Dhabi exists. I think the inspiration for me to do ADCC was Stuart Cooper's highlight reels. Like, when I was coming up, like 2000, 920, eleven CM Braulio. Andre Galvao's runs like that inspired me. Losing in the game more than Nogi also inspired me to chase the Nogi dreams. But, like, I'm following in Eddie Bravo's footsteps, you know, we both did. ADCC couldn't win it. We have our own invitational. But yeah, I thankful for everything they've done. I still obviously love ADCC. I wouldn't have a career as big as it is without ADCC.

But do you feel any loyalty to ADCC? Like you're kind of fucking them, right?

I mean, I feel loyalty to the athletes. I think, like, for what we do and how much. How much bigger the sport is now, we should be compensated better, you know, like. And that's sort of why I've taken a massive risk in doing this.

I appreciate what you're saying, but if ADC is not turning a profit, like the idea of compensating the athletes more, I mean, they have essentially made stars out of so many of these athletes. And because of that, by the fact of that, they've profited.

But therein lies the argument. And the argument is that I believe an event of that magnitude should turn a profit I'm going to do it myself. And see, obviously, I could be wrong, but based on the production and the things we've paid for thus far, I don't see how you couldn't run it in a profitable way. Obviously, we're giving away 100 times as much for two divisions.

Mm hmm.

But, man, like, if they had even upped it to 20k, you know what I mean? Let some token gesture, like, if we're going from a basketball court with a hundred people in there to selling out t mobile, like, there should. Like, if there's room for a fireworks show, there's room for drummers. I feel like there should be some room in the budget for the athlete pay to increase.

Now, that's a good argument. And hopefully by forcing by this, you guys will, like, inspire them.

And the argument is about making stars. Like, it's true. It's true. Obviously you get a huge platform, but you could win and not become a star. You know, I know plenty of guys. Well, not plenty of guys, but I know a few people that want ADCC, but really, like, no one knows who they are. Yeah, that's crazy for me, is I'll go to a seminar and I'll sell out just because of just fucking gay jokes and stupid jokes all the time, you know, and I'll see real champions that can't sell out a seminar. So if we can make an event that those champions can make some real money, and I'd be super happy.

Well, I think also your popularity has increased because people know that you coach Volkanovski and you've worked with MMA athletes before. Do you plan on still doing that?

For sure? Yeah, for sure. Love Volkanovski. Always be there for him anytime. I mean, obviously, MMA has got a lot of crazy individuals in there, but, like, to give up the time to work with the correct athletes. I will always have time for some of the real good guys out there. Like, obviously Izzy. Awesome. I'd always make time for Izzy. Jack Della from Perth. Like, guys like that, just super cool guys. I'd always find time to help him.

Yeah. Jack Della. What a big win he got over Gilbert, man.

I still moves off him. I remember when he went to the contender series, he hit like a Mikey Kumi reversal in the first round of the Contender series fight, and I was just blown away by his grappling, and I've been watching it since. And his reversal. Gilbert Burns was crazy.

Yeah, very crazy.

I've trained with him and I'm just like, I still moves from him. Like, he's man, he's so good at grappling.

Yeah, he's very good at striking, too. He's, in my opinion, he's like one of the best in the sport at mixing up shots from the body to the head because so many fighters, for whatever reason, are head hunters, you know, and because you can knock a guy out with one shot, but Jack is so good at mixing shots up to the body and to the head. I mean, he just breaks guys down.

Yeah, it's. Man, he's a scary guy. I was lucky, actually, because before the taporia fight, we were able to sort of link up. So it was like he came out to Wollongong and trains. Izzy came out at the same time, so I got to watch Jack Della and Izzy mix it up and then them train with Fox. And for me, even as an MMA fan, it's like I have to pinch myself sometimes, be like, wow, that's amazing. It's just like putting on this thing when I'm talking to these guys about super fights. It's the dream. As just a grappling fan, I'm just thinking, oh, what could we do? Who could we convince into this event? You know, like, just as, from a pure fan perspective, it is pretty fun aspects.

I'm sure it's. It's going to be interesting to see whether or not this can work because a lot of people have, like, looked at the UFC model and said, hey, athletes should be getting paid more money. And so they put on these events and none of them are profitable. I mean, maybe Bellator was, and they sold bellator. And then there's the PFL. I don't know how they do financially, but they have the same sort of similar thing. They have a tournament. The other tournament, the guy wins a million dollars.

But my point is, right, is like, if you're an Olympic champion or if you're a UFC champion, it has so much prestige that every single person in the world knows what it is that has this intrinsic value. If you say you're an IBGF champion or an ADCC champion, a very small percentage of population know that. So it's like, that's case in point. We put on a tournament with much more money. Everyone jump ships because they know that's money. Whereas, like, obviously, Olympic gold medal. That's timeless. That's. That's crosses all sports, you know, that crosses into the culture.

How many guys are jumping ship?

I mean, I'll tell you afterwards, but.

So is it public that they're jumping ship or are they not talking about it or.

Well, we got 16 spots in under and over, and I'm navigating through who wants to be in there, you know.

16 spots each, so 32 total.

So I'm trying to navigate through the best guys we can get, and it's like, everyone wants in, you know?

Really? So no one's worried about the repercussions or the blowback from ADCC?

No. Cause I think they see it as, wow, I could get the money to show, like, I mean. So the Tackett brothers, local Texas guys, some of the nicest kids ever, you know, and they were the first ones to reach out to me. They won the trials. It's been. ADCC has been their dream their entire life, and they just hit me up because no one believes anything I say. Unfortunately, it's like, you make too many jokes. Everyone's like, he's full of shit. But these guys were like, man, is this real? And I was like, yeah, it's real. And they're like, well, even if I have to deal with the consequences, even if I have to go back and win the trials to qualify again, I want a shot at a million to take. And they're not even talking about themselves. I want to take care of my family. And I'm like, wow, that's a super cool motivation to do this. They're willing to risk it because they'll fight their way back in.

Well, I hope there's no repercussions.

I don't think that will be.

Well, we'll see, right. But I think best case scenario is that ADCC recognizes that there's competition and they have to raise up the amount of money they give the athletes. And, you know, maybe it'll just elevate the profile of the sport enough so that's profitable still.

Yeah, it's a good experiment. Prestige versus.

But why do it the same weekend as them?

Well, you want the athletes to make a stand. You know, are they together or, you know, what is the motivation here for these guys?

Yeah, money's the motivation. Money is not necess. It's sort of making a stand, but it's making a stand that money is more important than this organization that's propped up the sport for 20 plus years.

Well, there's other athletes that say a million dollars easy to make. That guy over there.

Yeah, you for Gordon, I mean, Gordon makes a lot of money. I mean, Gordon makes a lot of money through instructional, just from dominating for all these years.

But again, like a million for most guys. I mean, you grow up in Brazil, you know, you like millions. Not easy to make by any means. Like, especially, like, the instructional market is predominantly english speaking people. They're the ones that are gonna pay the highest price. So it's like, us that speak English have a huge advantage in that area. Like, even me personally, just for having an accent. I'm. A lot of Americans like, wow, he's fucking smarter.

That's why we use people like you for infomercials.

Yeah, exactly. They. They take it so, I mean, John Danner, you throw a kiwi accent on it.

Yeah.

He's obviously a smart guy, but that adds points for sure.

Are you still close to him? Do you talk to him?

No, we don't talk.

So he's upset at this, all this.

I don't know. I've run into him a few times. We shake hands, but, you know, his general demeanor, you don't really know, like, you know. Yeah, I look back when we walk past, see there's no knife coming, you know? But I helped him hide a few bodies in New York, you know, some missing women. But, oh, we had a tight bond.

He's a unique character. I mean, he seems like a guy from a fucking movie. Like, he doesn't even seem like a real guy, you know, some professor of philosophy at Columbia who becomes obsessed with jiu jitsu, sleeps on the mats, teaches everybody, and forces everybody to train 365 days a year.

Yeah. That's an interesting fella. Yeah.

What was it like doing that? Like, the 365 days a year?

I mean, I wouldn't do it. You know, I would be like, well, we're taking a day off, you know, let me have a day to relax. I wouldn't necessarily do it. I mean, it was a lot of training, though. He kind of, like, he wanted it to be your life, you know, like. And obviously it should be, but a lot of. A lot of pressure. A lot of pressure to be a part of that team.

Did you talk to him about that, the philosophy behind those decisions?

I mean, we had a lot of discussions. I think, like, we were actually really close because I'm from. He's New Zealand, I'm Australia, I'm from his part of the world. So a lot of the time Australians visit, he actually has a tight connection with him because we have a lot of things we can relate on. So we. I mean, we talk all the time. I'd probably. Unfortunately, probably. Me and Nikki Ryan were two of the ones he was closest to before the team split.

Hmm. And when you guys were training there, I mean, how beneficial is it having.

A guy like him around super beneficial, and also not just because of who he is and how smart he is, but like, he basically approached it like an MMA coach. You know, like MMA coach is always watching, is always guiding your training. Most jiu jitsu coaches are participating. They teach you a few moves. They roll with everyone. So to have a guy that approaches it like an MMA coach, where he approaches it with that level of professionalism, watching, making adjustments, I think even something as simple as that is a huge benefit.

Yeah, I think so, too. Also, a guy who's physically impaired, where he can't compete, but he has so much passion for it that he pours it all into the athletes.

Yeah. And I think what made him so brilliant as well is obviously his college and university. He knows how to study, he knows how to take notes on everything. He knows how to teach. You put him in Henzo Gracie's in New York for 20 years when it was the hub of mma and grappling. Guys like Hodgka Gracie are passing through all the time. He's basically in this position where he can just watch, train with all these guys, pick up all these details and have it locked and loaded, ready to teach in a perfect way. Like, obviously, his game's heavily inspired by Marcella Garcia. You know, like, he just takes the really useful things and can articulate it in a way that's better than most of the people in the sport before him. So I think there's all these factors that have made him who he is and why he's so successful.

How much of a factor is this? The constant training, the training of 365 days a year. Like, how do you balance the burnout with the discipline? Like, how do you like. Because I think inspiration is almost, enthusiasm and inspiration are almost. I think discipline is more important, for sure, but they're factors that can't be ignored, because when an athlete loses inspiration and loses enthusiasm, they just don't have the mental drive to push through, like, very difficult situations. You know what I'm saying? Like, you just lose the steam, you lose the engine.

I mean, I don't think you should do 365 a year, you know, like, I think you should peak for events, have a period of time afterwards where you slow down, and then when you not preparing for an event, you're studying technique. When you get closer to an event, you're refining those particular techniques and skills for that particular event's rule set or opponent or whatever. And we should, like, go up and down and like, I like it when you have an event, whether you win or lose, you don't train too much often. You have this period where you miss training and you're, like, pulled back into it. So I do. And I think, I mean, even, like, obviously Gordon's had forced breaks with health issues, but, like, as long as I've known him and we trained together, like, there would be time periods where he would. Wouldn't be at training for a week or two, you know, so it's like, I think it's like a myth we should all strive for, but everyone should be entitled to some time off.

Did you ever talk to John about that?

I mean, I would just take a day off every week, but luckily, like, I think he had some love for the Australians, let me get away with some things he wouldn't let other people do. So, I mean, I would be chilling, you know?

Does he have enforced that, like, the 365 days a week, a year, rather?

I don't know if there's a real strong enforcement, but there's, like, an unspoken he better be there, you know, like, but who knows what it's like now, obviously, he's moved to Austin. My memory is probably fazy, probably forgot some things, but, yeah, obviously I'm super appreciative that I had. I was a part of that team, but, I mean, I was with, like, Lachlan. I'm lucky. I moved to Melbourne. I was with Lachlan Giles for a few years. I had a massive splash at ADCC 2019, and then I was with John. So, like, I've been around some good coaches, you know, so I think a lucky position, despite coming from Australia, not as lucky as others. Like, it would have been amazing to be like a Niki Ryan, born right next to New York and got to train with someone. Will the people in that team have that? Coaches? But again, like, we're all not that lucky. I didn't even train with a black belt til I was already a purple bell. So it's like, we really. Yeah, we all weren't exposed because I'm from Australia, I probably came up with a time period in my city that was more like an older time in the US where black belts were like, whoa, never met one.

What year did you start training?

Oh, probably 17 years ago now.

And even back then, there weren't many black belts around.

No, when I started training, I just trained with my cousin and he was like a four stripe white belt. There was like two people on the mats, you know, there was nothing. I trained twice a week. I didn't train properly for a long time.

You trade twice a week yeah, I was really.

I didn't even think. I didn't even know what it was. You know, we just doing it for fun. Yeah.

What were you doing for a living back then?

I was still in high school when I first started. And then I was just flipping burgers at Burger King, basically. Then I did a psychology degree, just a bachelor's. Some bartender. Like, I had to work jobs, study and do jiu jitsu. So these assholes today, they get a just train. I'm so envious of them, you know, like, it's just the sport again, the sports. Growing that much with the sponsorship deals and stuff.

So back then, how did you learn technique, man?

I had Eddie, like, here's the funny thing. I had Eddie Bravo's master in the rubber guard book that came to me at a very influential time where I read the chapter about weed. I was like, fuck it. Maybe I should start smoking weed. You know? So, like, I was like thinking, I'm going to learn some techniques. Ended up smoking weed all the time.

Yeah, it doesn't work for everybody. It's interesting, the wheat thing, because some people think it makes you lazy, and I think you're just lazy. I think if you. If weed makes you lazy, you're lazy. I just. I don't. I don't. It makes me think about the consequence. Like the idea of paranoia. Like, people talk about weed paranoia. I think it's like a hyper awareness. And, you know, Eddie once said this to me, like, if your life is shit and you smoke weed, it's gonna feel terrible. But if your life is great and you smoke weed, you're gonna feel good. Like, if you've got all. You don't have any problems in your life, you don't have any things you're dealing with. If you've dealt with your problems and you're just like on a good path, then weeds good for you. But weed has never made me lazy. It's the opposite. I smoke weed. I always feel like, don't be lazy. Good. You gotta get things to do. You don't want these things fucking with you. You don't want these things hanging over your head like that hyper awareness. It's like part of my work ethic, you know, like the, like oversight.

Like someone is looking over me all the time, making sure I can't lie to myself or to other people. I have to do the things I'm actually supposed to do. That's my feeling about it.

Well, I mean, I read his book and I was like, 17 smokin bongs. Driving a training in the car, having pre workout, getting ready to go to war, you know, like, that's basically. It floats it out on me, but it was good. I think rolling, like, rolling high keeps you fluent. Keeps you. I wouldn't do all the time. Sometimes I meet guys that are so high that I've just smashed them for a round. But they've done one thing, but they're so, like, fascinated by that. Like, the perceptions off.

Sometimes I think that's possible. True. That's too. But I've always felt like I was, like, 10% better when I was high. I really feel like that's. There was quite a few things.

A couple beers.

I'm scared. Beers don't help me. Like. Like when I play pool, if I play pool high, I play way better. If I play pool drunk, I'm not good.

Oh, really?

Yeah. I think with me, alcohol just makes me not pay attention to shit. Alcohol for me is like, I'm not. I'm not a focused person.

If I'm drinking, I need that for sport. That gives me a false sense of confidence, you know, that's his fault.

Maybe one or two beers, but drunk, have you ever competed drunk?

I've felt it for sure. You know, it's usually not beer. She's usually a vodka soda or something. So if a fan sees, I'm like, that's so doctor.

You've done that many times? Were you just to take the edge off?

Five, six times? I mean, I was. I had a couple drinks before the Lovato match because we had the howler head bottle back there. I was like, hey, come on, throw us some sponsorship money. You know, set that up. But sadly, not.

Well, isn't hallerhead owned by Dana? Doesn't Dana?

That was the thing. I was like, go sneak us a bottle back here, man. Put in the vlog.

You were training, and you were learning from books. Like, did you have any videos that you studied? Was it like, how did you learn techniques other than just books?

I mean, we. I'm trying to remember what books I had, man. I had, like, BJ Penn's book, Eddie Bravo's book, like, the actual textbooks. And then I started buying the instructionals. Like, I had Cara Parisians, judo for Mma, Ryan Halls. He was one. He really changed the game with instructionals in the early days, so, like, stealing all his moves. And then I learned about the world of torrent sites, and I started illegally acquiring every instruction I could. And then we'd try to self learn on the maths, studying these and then drilling the moves. That's really. So I was really self taught up until purple belt. Really just focused on using instructionals.

And then. Where'd you go for purple belt?

Then I moved to Melbourne with Lachlan Giles and basically was like two and a half years there and then two and a half years with John.

That's a crazy little amount of time.

Yeah, I didn't spend. That's the thing. A lot of people, obviously, they just notice when you achieve something, you know what I mean? So, like, I trained by myself a long time before I was able to join any big teams.

What do you think attributed to your success?

I think. I mean, honestly, I don't know. I put in the work in the early days, for sure, and then studying, studying, studying, and then just being at the forefront of the leg lock sort of saga, you know, like, I got in the right time. I saw techniques in the GI, like the birambolo, that were just a new technique that would wipe the floor with experienced black belts. You could use it on people you had no business beating. Those are the techniques I wanted. And I saw the Danaher guys use heel hooks, and I was like, man, if I, as a purple belt, can submit some black belts, I'm like, that's fucking. That's the way I gotta go.

And so how did you wind up training with John and the.

Well, I mean, I would just. Obviously Australia is far away. Hard for us, me to keep doing that 16 hours journey back and forth. I wanted to stay in America, so I just started doing my camps there. That was the best place to do it. It was like 100 people in the room doing nogi. Obviously, it had that DDS squad there. That was awesome. Danaha, focus. At that time, there really weren't too many places in the world that would take Nogi as seriously as those guys.

How bad was the staph infections going around down there?

I got staph every month. Every month. There's.

How the fuck is that possible?

I go, I got it under my eye one time, and the guy was. The doctor was like, bro, if it's your eye, you're fucked. I was like, oh, it's reassuring. Hey, thank you. But, yeah, every month I was on it. I remember I used to go trips to Mexico to get some medicine. So I'd go down there, buy a bunch of doxycycline, buy like 90 tablets of it. I'd just sit on it, keep taking them. Used to buy my steroids down in Mexico, too.

But isn't that's probably what fucked Gordon's stomach up.

The steroids, I mean.

No, I mean the antibiotics. I don't think the steroids help.

Yeah, probably. Probably bit everything. Who knows? Yeah, the antibiotics definitely not good for.

You, but when you're on antibiotics. He was on antibiotics for a year straight, which first of all is crazy because the amount of discipline it takes to train that much while you're on antibiotics. For people who don't know, antibiotics wreck your cardio, just wreck your physical strength, wreck your vitality. I got staff once and I remember took antibiotics and I don't think I'd ever taken antibiotics before while I was training and when I was recovering from staff, I was like, this is nuts. I feel like I'm 50%. You're at 50%. Like when Luke Rockhold beat Chris Weidman, he was on antibiotics.

I mean, I've taken it a lot during matches. I've taken it a lot. I've been on it all the time in the last two matches taken.

Rex, you though, right?

Yeah, I had bad stuff in my leg. Like even during the Philip Rowe match. I remember I submitted him and then he had staff a few days later. I was like, got you twice, mate. But that was bad when the doctor had to cut that open and like, squeeze it out. That was horrible. But I think, yeah, the more you take antibiotics, the less effect they have on you. So now I get stuff. It's fucking really annoying.

Do you use anything to protect your skin? Like use defense soap or anything like that?

Nah, I just try to shower straight afterwards.

You know, just regular soap?

Yeah, anything. I think we have some branded soap in there, but like, I think it's just important. Like, I mean, we're dealing with some people that don't even know how to shower. Like, that's crazy. Yeah, some of they have a quick rinse. Get out of there.

You know, I would see guys do that when they would train and they would just go home sweaty. I'm like, you're out of your fucking mind. Like, you're allowing that stuff to breed on your skin while you're in your car. It's hot out.

That was Puerto Rico. We had no showers at the gym.

Oh God.

So we'd have a 60 minutes drive home after each class without having a shower.

Oh, that's insane.

Not good for the car fabric smell.

But was the Puerto Rico gym, wasn't that exposed to sunlight at least? Wasn't the mat exposed to sunlight?

Not enough. But you know what, cuz I get in the ocean every day. I think maybe that helped.

Oh, that.

Probably a lot of sunshine down there, too.

Yeah, that probably helps a lot. Sunlight on the mats, apparently, is a great thing. Like, if you could open up garage doors and have sunlight on the mats, apparently that. That kills a lot of things.

Yeah, for sure. I also think sometimes, like, the overtrain, like, your immune system's just down because maybe you're stressed.

Yeah, for sure.

You're really stressed about a match. A lot of people get stuff around a match because they push the training up due to the anxiety of the match. They're thinking about it messes with their sleep, and then they're just vulnerable to it.

When you were training, did you ever monitor your heart rate? Check your heart rate in the morning, make sure you're not over training?

You know, I thought about doing that stuff, the HIV stuff. I looked up one of the machines at the time. I was like, fuck that. That's expensive, eh? I mean, now I don't monitor anything. I get my blood pressure checked. It's concerning. You know, I almost failed the last two medicals. Cause the doctor was like, bro, your blood pressure's through the roof.

Really?

I was like, pass it, man. It's jiu jitsu. It's not mma.

Why would your blood pressure be so high?

Good question. Hey, probably too much caffeine.

Think that's it?

I don't know. We should find out. But I'm busy traveling all the time. I should look into it.

You don't know what's wrong. Freaked me out. My blood pressure was high.

Now you're freaking me out now. We'll test it after.

I mean, I just feel like I.

Gotta survive for this shit.

I understand, but you're relying on your body. That's your business. Your business is your body.

I just hope it's a faulty test, you know? I'm not faulty.

Test for blood pressure. I think those things are 100%.

I'm like, the biceps, too big. Get a bigger band.

I don't think they're ever wrong with blood pressure. I mean, there's factors. You can be stressed out that'll raise up your blood pressure.

I was making jokes with the doctor last time I competed in Dubai, and I was making jokes with him, and he was just, like, not laughing at all. He's like, not having a day. The mexican doctor for karate Kombat loved it. But not the Dubai guy.

Oh, that's funny.

I faced, you know, the guy in the UFC that finished Kevin Lee real quick? He not. He finished Kevin Lee, like, with a. He knocked him down. Guillotined him in a minute.

Oh, the last guy. Yeah, his last fight.

Can't remember his last name. Renat. Renat. I can't remember his name.

Right.

Okay. He was crazy, though, man. He did not want to tap. Add him buggy choke. Put him in a triangle he went to.

There it is. Rena. How to say that?

Fucker. Edo go for.

Give his noodle name for credit for.

Credan off his middle names. Tougher there.

Yeah. Wow. Raj. Rajtovic.

He's just like, how can I fucking make Bruce Buffer's life difficult?

A. Yeah, bro. Buffer's got it rough. I got it rough on the. I fuck up all the time on the weigh ins. When I have to do the weigh.

Ins, do they get angry with you? Does anyone get angry?

No. No. Luckily, no one's gotten angry at me. But it's always a mistake. I've fucked up a few times. It's hard. Those words are hard. Sometimes your mouth just doesn't work right. You know? It just doesn't come out right. I fucked up Umar Nurmagomedov's name once. When I was after his fight. I was like, God damn it. It just came out like mermaid every.

I can't even say it now.

Hey, it's hard. Some of them. Zabeet was the hardest. Mogamed Sharapov.

Yeah.

Zabit magamed Sharapov. That was a guy that I. Fuck, man. I was just really bummed out when he stepped out, when he just decided enough's enough. I think he's a doctor now.

Really?

I think so. Find out what he's doing. Zabit magamed Sharapov. That guy was fucking good, man.

He did some cool shit.

He just wild shit. He was so interesting because he was from Dagestan, but he fought like a. You know, like, almost like a karate fighter.

Yeah, crazy kick.

Yeah, wild kicks, man. And he could do anything. I mean, crazy trips, too. He would do that trip.

Oh, yeah. He sort of led the way with that. Now, volks, does a lot of guys try to do that one?

Yeah, he was very good at that one particular trip. He's just so clever. So clever and creative and such an interesting fighter to watch. I was bummed out, man. Like, really bummed out. When that guy retired, I was like, shit.

That's why I love traveling around, finding these guys. Like, these mysterious guys. Like, I was in Japan, I could have dinner with Genki Sudo.

Ah, I love that dude.

That's the coolest guy ever had like a politician. Now he's done it all.

Remember when he used to carry around that flag with all the.

All the.

We were all flags and we are all one. What a beautiful guy.

So cool, man.

So, like, win a fight and then hold this up. Like, we are all one.

And then he just retired to pursue becoming a pop star, and now he's a politician.

He was a pop star.

Yeah, he owns restaurants. Yeah. Have you seen his dancing videos?

No, I'm actually a guy who fights that good. Could probably dance like a motherfucker.

Crazy dancing. Genki psudo one. I forget the name of it. Like, dancing, montage, singing. He does it all.

No shit. Wow. I'm not surprised. He's a creative guy. He was creative as a fighter, too. Very interesting fighter to watch.

He retired and, like, he became a pop star to grow in popularity. Like, even fighting wasn't his focus. He just wanted to leverage fighting and becoming a pop star to help him get into politics, to help people. He really just wants to help people. So those were side gigs to get him to where he is today, where he can use his political influence to help people in Japan.

Wow, that is amazing. Does he look at him? Is this him dancing?

Oh, yeah.

First pitch with all these dudes behind him. Oh, a terrible pitch.

Yeah. Soft throw.

Wow, that's pretty cool.

He had some crazy men, him back in that west side grappling tournament. He, like, was hitting some moves back then.

Oh, yeah, man.

Innovative today.

Yeah. Wild, explosive. Interesting guy. Just very interesting. I mean, that's the kind of thing about the sport that's so cool is that you get these human beings that are just exceptional human beings that decide to challenge themselves. And one of the most difficult things a person could do, like Volkanovski, like, he's a very interesting guy because, like, it takes extreme character and will and discipline and to become Alexander Volkanovski, the greatest featherweight of all time, I mean, it takes a lot to be that person. And you learn a lot just by being around those people. You learn about human potential.

Yeah, I mean, I even learned grappling from these guys. You know, people think I show up and I'm just helping them. Like, those guys are so talented. Like, I steal shit from them as well. You know, just, I don't know how they do it all. Volks does it all.

What have you learned from Volk?

I mean, just the way, like, I really steal a lot from MMA fighters and how they turtle and get up from there.

Mmm.

A lot of grapplers don't understand that, like, until they roll with a good MMA guy and the guy just keeps getting up, and they're like, what is happening?

Like, Derek Lewis.

Yeah. They just stand up. I love that. I stole that for instructional name. Just stand up. And I was like, Derek Lewis. Inspired.

Yo, you did do that, right? You did make a whole instructional about getting up.

Yeah.

Is it because some guys get just too captured with the idea of engaging and grappling and not getting up?

Yeah. Well, like. Like, if a guy gets his guard pass, a jujitsu guy would just look to get guard back, where it's like, sometimes it's good to expose your back and just stand up and reset, whereas, like, a lot of jujitsu guys are so scared to expose their back.

Mmm.

They refuse to ever do it. So it's like, when an MMA guy does it, they don't know how to deal with it. I'm just good at dealing with it.

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Because you don't think about it. Yeah. Well, it's always like, when you have new variability, new variables. New variables into any sort of fighting discipline. Like, oh, this is a new thing that I didn't consider.

Yeah, I love that. Like, that's why. That's what I love about Jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu can be more complicated. MMA is a bit more simple. So it's like, we can make all these instructionals in Jiu jitsu about all these weird positions like octopus guard and stuff, because you can be endlessly creative, whereas in MMA, the consequences are so strong.

Right.

It's a much simpler game. Doesn't mean it's easier. There's just less things you can do.

Well, that's what's interesting, is that guys in MMA in general aren't as good at submissions because they have all these other disciplines to consider. It's like when I went from Taekwondo to kickboxing, one of the things that I realized, like, oh, when people are punching you in the face, there's a lot of stuff you can't do. But if people aren't punching you in the face, damn, you get good at kicking. And so these guys who are used to getting punched in the face, there's stuff that they're just not. They don't have the dexterity. They don't have the ability to do. And I don't know if you develop that to the same extent. Like, when you see guys like wonder boy who started out with karate, like, that guy can do stuff with his legs that the average person can't do, you know, or yair. Yair Rodriguez.

That's crazy.

Ooh, my God, that guy. He's one of my favorite guys to watch because his fucking kicks are crazy. They just come from everywhere.

Who's he fighting next?

That's a good question.

Did he just fight? He just saw Tiger. His last fight, I believe.

Was that his last fight? Let's say pull up Yair Rodriguez. But let's just find out what Yair Rodriguez's next fight is. I don't know if they've announced it. I haven't heard anything.

Yeah, it's funny, when you're in the. When you friends with a bunch of MMA fighters, sometimes they let you know of a fight that's not been announced. You like, fuck. I better not say, right? Better not drop the news, get in trouble.

Yeah, that happens all the time. Yeah, I fuck up a few times. Does it say nothing?

Booked wastegar's last one.

Yes. Yeah. So he lost Artega, and before that, Volkanovski. Volkanovski beat his ass. That was a. That was a prime Volkanovski display.

Yeah, that was crazy, that man. Yeah, he just. He's just so strong.

Just like, he's a mauler.

Outmuscled him in the clinch. And we worked on a bunch of stuff because of how dangerous Yaa's guard is. Like, he. He's got a dangerous guard. And we had to overcome the fact that, like, if you leave space against him, he throws elbows that cut you.

Right.

So it's like, we had to navigate those areas, and really, it was good. Like a training vaults for a guy. Like, yeah, he is awesome, because when he's on bottom, there's, like, a big contingent of mexican MMA fighters have really dangerous guards. Diego Lopez trains there. I think he's from Manaus originally, but he trains a bunch of guys there. And just aggressive bottom game where if you leave space, they throw elbows, and if you're close, they're trying to set up high guards and submissions. So it's like, we really had to prepare for how dangerous he is, though.

He's one of the front runners, in my opinion. Diego, first of all, how the fuck does that guy make 145?

Shredded. Yeah, he's just finishing everyone.

Hey, he's so dangerous, man. You know? Who did he fight? Super Sadiq Youssef. In his last fight. He stopped him in the first round. Before that fight, I was telling everybody, I was like, I think this guy's the guy. I think he's the next guy to emerge.

I wonder who he's booked against. I remember his first fight was, like, short notice against Mosbar. Yeah, I thought he won.

It was very close. And Mosfar is undefeated and one of the best guys in the division. But Diego's scary. It's not just that he's good. He's fucking scary. He's intense and from everywhere, like, submissions, submissions, knockouts. And his fucking stand up is horrific.

Yeah.

Yair just climbed Mount Everest. Jesus Christ, Yair. That's the most recent thing.

I can fucking relax, bro.

He's so tough. It doesn't even look like he's fucking wearing anything.

He's out warm. He's out bird watching.

Look at. He's got a fucking giant pack on. Walking around, rucking. That's a good way to develop some cardio, I'll tell you that.

It looks fine, but I definitely want someone else to hold the bag.

Hey, no, that's how you get the cardio. You have to carry the bag on your back. That's the whole idea.

What are the guys that help you out? The mountain? Those guys?

Yeah, the Sherpas. Yeah, but I think he's trying to get fit. I think that's the whole idea about. It's interesting when a guy like that is just so good at one area, which is kicking and very good off his back submission, but then struggles in a couple other areas. Like, he's almost there. He's, like, right there at the tippy top, but not quite at the level of the guys that are beating him. Just. But, like, remember when he lost to Frankie? Came back from that and just become a much better fighter. Much better fighter.

Just people counted him out a couple times and almost reinvented himself. Like, surprised people, you know, that happens so often.

Like, people counted out Max Holloway. You know, Mac Holloway. The last fight with Volk. Volk dominated, and, you know, and Max just said, hey, that was his night. He had a good. He had a great night. And that is a fact of fighting, too. Like, sometimes a guy will clip you in the first round, and you're kind of not the same, and he. But if he didn't clip you, maybe you would have won. Like, maybe, you know, maybe if you like Justin Gaethje, Max Holloway. He gets caught with that jump spinning back kick to the nose at the end of the first round. Shattered his nose. That's a big factor. Big factor. Doesn't land that. Who knows? Fight was a fucking amazing fight. Still, even with that shattered nose.

Crazy. I was watching that. I was in Dubai for karate combat, and I was watching that at the breakfast buffet with all the staff. At the buffet at the hotel I was at, everyone. We were going crazy. I brought the laptop down, eating omelets and fucking craziest fight.

It was the craziest fight ever in the last 10 seconds when Max points to the floor, a fight that he's winning four rounds to one. Crazy to just call the guy out.

We got to do that in jiu jitsu. Like, give each other a leg. Let's fucking go.

I don't think that's the same.

Both get broken.

Well, that's an interesting thing about, like, the EBI rules. How do you like those rules? The rules where when it goes to overtime, you start either on a person's back or start from what they call Spider web, which is just, you know, side control, like, trying to get an arm.

I mean, I like anything creative like that. That's going to force people to train those different areas. Like, but the majority of the sport, especially old school guys, don't like it. It's very difficult to get them to compete under those rules. Me personally, I like any rule set I can beat a guy in. So I had Philippe pen a match and the UFC fight pass. Guys were like, oh, what rules that should we do? And I was like, I think Ebi is pretty good, you know? Yeah, but I like. I like the ruleset strategically against particular opponents, but, you know, like, guy, like Kyle Baines, planet guy. One of the best overtime guys in the world. Like, if I had a match with him, I'd be like, nah, we'll just do a regular rules match, you know?

Right.

So, like, it's. It's sort of strategy based, right?

Based on the opponent's strengths.

Like, even Nikki ride against Gordon, like, they went to OT, and it was fucking close, you know? And it's like, that is very stressful. It's exciting. It's exciting. But if guys get submitted in those areas, sometimes people don't consider it real, even though it is. You know, they're like, oh, it's an overtime victory. You didn't really submit him, but you.

Did, right when Nikki grabbed that foot.

Yeah. Just fucking ripped it out.

I mean, how bad is his leg? Fucked up still? You gotta think, like, that's doing some damage.

I just think, like, what was hilarious about that is, like, he was meant. Gordon's meant to face Vinny Magalash. And no disrespect to Vinny. Vinny's just at a later stage of his career, right.

Vinny, when he was young, was a monster.

Was incredible. And then it's like two days before they flipped the script and you got Nikki Rod and. You know what I mean? And I just can just picture him just getting his foot broken, being like, what the fuck? Am I right? What the fuck just happened?

You know, when I watched it, I was like, jesus Christ, that is a lot of. Nikki is such a gorilla.

It was loud. So loud. It was like, you heard the snap, eh? Sometimes, though, you get popped and it's so fast that it's. The damage is already done, and you're just like, well, it's already injured. Let's keep going, you know?

Right.

But obviously, some of the submissions are holding tension points, slowly breaking. But the ones that are quick, sometimes guys don't tap. Cause it's like you didn't even have time to process it.

Well, what about the one with you and Vinny where you broke his leg?

That was disgusting. Yeah, that still haunts me. Hey, but he. Yeah, I don't know why.

How the fuck did he keep going? And why did he keep going?

But that's just it. You got to be careful what shit talk you say. Like, I try to be careful with what I say. I'm never going to be like, leg locks don't work. Because he got put in a leg lock in 20 seconds and his leg broke. And it's like, now you committed to the bit, you know?

Like, was he saying leg locks, leg locks don't work.

And then he's just leg exploded.

And I'm like, that's such a crazy thing to say. Leg locks don't work.

It's because he had had matches with Gary and Gordon, and they got some pops on him, but he hadn't submitted, so maybe they laid the groundwork for me, but I think it. Spiral fracture of his fibula. Oh, ankle. Yeah. Disturbing. Oh, that was where I was like, bro, I wouldn't let that happen for a million. I don't know how much chaos Hunnan's paying you, but it must be more than me.

I just think it's his pride, you know? Just didn't want to happen. But the fact that he kept going after the leg snapped, that was loud.

That was. Yeah, that was out. And the second one, I saw the bone poking into the skin. Like, if I'd kept going, it would have probably, like, his whatever bone fragment would have come out.

Yeah, yeah.

I was nervous. I. Bro, is this guy waiting for overtime? Like, he just didn't want to tap. And then the ref caught it cuz his leg was dangling. I did a. The first heel hook, and then the second one, I baited him where I pretended like I was going for his other leg. So he gave me the bad one again, but he was laughing as he was like, fuck. I couldn't have you break both my legs. It's like monty python.

Oh, my God. So you knew it was already broken.

So my foot hit the ground at the exact second his leg snapped in half. So for a second, like, I felt a little bit of crunching, but I didn't hear it. Everyone else in the room heard it. And then. And he gets out of it, and I was just like, wow, this fucking guy's flexible. Hey. And then he says to me, he goes, I think you broke my leg.

Oh, no. He said it in the middle of the mat.

We stopped talking, and I'm just like, what is happening here? Right? How strange. And I was like, you want to keep going? All right. And he gave. Like, I ended up back with the same leg.

Oh, God.

And it was just no resistance. His ankle just did a full. It just kept going.

See if you can find that, Jamie.

That's.

It's horrible. That was the one. That was the most disturbing jujitsu match I've ever watched.

Yeah, I just. I just couldn't understand, like, I was just like, bro, why you making me do this?

Yeah, Vinny, please tap.

You give him a trauma.

I remember watching, like, with this look on my face, like, don't fucking.

I just felt bad for him, cuz he's a fucking good guy. And I was just like, man, did you not tap? Cuz you said leg locks don't work. Were you, like, committed to. It was quick, though. It was a quick break.

Doesn't he still have a plate in there?

Honestly, I don't know. But he came back and competed against Mason Fowler, like, maybe four or five months later.

That's crazy.

And it's just like, you get some mileage on the body there, bro, with like.

Yeah.

Is it worth it?

I mean, better than the tibia, I guess. The fibula. I cracked my fibula before. It's not as bad. It's a small bone, you know, and they can just let it fix, you know, let it heal up once they screw it together.

I wouldn't let it break out. Just try. Yeah, the noise is bad. I've broken a few legs, and I'm just like, whoa.

So here it is. Is this before?

There's the first ones at the. The brakes at the start of match. So his leg's already broken here. If you go to like 20 seconds. Yeah, that right there. So we hit like a 50 50 invasion.

You might want to grab that knee down and pull this leg out.

See here he's actually in a little bit deep. Oh, yeah. So look at this.

Oh, do you hear it? Oh, look at his foot. Look where his foot is.

And then he tries to get me.

Why?

I let go of it, cuz I was like, he can't let his leg break. And then me just out for the.

Rubber guard, I guess we got rubber knee.

He's huge here too. That was one of Craig's best positions. And he got to it with it.

Dude, the sound is so awful. The sound of broken bones. I've never. I never get like, Chris Weidman when he fought Uriah hall through that. Like, it was like full power. And Uriah checked it and you see snap. You hear the snap and you see his leg bend over. Like.

That'S where it's like. It's crazy how people react to that shit. Where Conor McGregor was still just talking shit. That's fucking hilarious to me.

I'm just like, he's such a psychopath.

I never miss a mom. He didn't even have the pain killing whistle yet, but he was ready for. I know.

Did you see him partying? Like a night or two ago?

You reckon? Real?

I mean, it doesn't mean he's drinking.

He'S vibing, he's with his wife, he's.

Got his shirt off. Looks like he's having a good time. I mean, it looked like he wasn't sober, but he could just be a fucking maniac.

It's mind games, though. Maybe that. Yeah, that's why I did with Levado. Kept talking about how I was partying all the time and I was, but I was like, maybe it's gonna mess with. You know what I mean?

Like, right, right. So here's Connor and he's kissing his wife. He's throwing. He took his shirt off. He's getting crazy, but I mean, he could just be enthusiastic.

I don't know.

It looks a little fucked up.

Listen, I'm still a roadhouse. He ain't that good. Actor.

Shane Gillis has an amazing bit about roadhouse. You have to see it.

Oh, really?

It's so fucking funny.

He's a legend, a. I want to get him involved in this. I want to get some comedians commentating. Just shit talking the grappling world, you know?

Oh, that's funny.

Hilarious.

We'd have to get guys who know some grappling. Joey Diaz Joey Diaz would be amazing.

Surprising if you. Some people I'd be thinking, be fucking.

Oh, he would be amazing. Well, he wouldn't do interviews. I don't think he wouldn't be good at that. But he'd be good at, like, commentary. Get him in the booze.

Yeah.

Get him talking shit. Yeah. People's names up.

I'll get him to corner me against Gabby.

He might do it. He might do it. He might do it. You never know. I cornered Hegan in Abu Dhabi.

Oh, you did?

2003. He didn't have anybody with him. Is it Joe Hogan? He said, you take the. Just tell me when the time. Because, like, he can, you know, had been trained that much, was in the best of shape. Just let me know what time it was. Just yelling out what the time is.

Yeah, that's what I say. Sometimes if I don't have a, like, if I. I'm just like, just let me know the time. Yeah, let me know if you think I'm burning too much gas or I'm too relaxed, you know, I'm like, that's the key here.

Right, right. Having Joey Diaz in your corner would be fucking hysterical.

Alex Jones wanted to do it, but I'm like, oh, I don't think that's a tough guy to get involved with the charities. Yeah, our foundation, with my business partner, Seth. Our foundation's called the Fair Fight foundation. And I'm just like, it's probably not good to start it with fighting a woman, but it's a bold move.

Well, it's a fair fight, though. She's so big. I mean, she might outweigh you by what do you walk around at 205?

She got a few pounds of me for sure.

At least 40.

Last night we were video calling each other and we're both taking Anne of our. And I was like, I popped a 50 and she popped a 25. I was like, you need more than that to beat me, you pussy. You know, I took some screenshots. Hey, I don't know if I'll release.

That's hilarious.

Yeah, I should talk it to get the contract signed.

You know, you should have Joey Diaz do commentary for that vibe. That would be the perfect fight for him to do commentary for.

Yeah, just come and say, yeah, cuz.

Joey does jiu jitsu. He knows a little bit. He definitely knows positions. And he talks so much shit. He's just so hilarious.

I'm gonna take it serious, but I am gonna come out in a white tank top smoking a cigarette, probably, you know, I'll put it on the corner of the mat and see if I can finish her before it finishes, you know?

Wow. Yeah. Well, having something like that would definitely be an added element of fun.

Some fun. The tournament's serious. Obviously. You guys are gonna be killing each other. And then a bit of. A bit of entertainment, you know, a bit of a battle of the sexes, I guess you could say.

Definitely that. Sort of a battle of the enhanced sexes.

Yeah. Who's more enhanced though?

Yeah, she is.

Yeah. For sure. I gotta know her stack. I wish what I wanted to do was run an event where we drug tested, but it was anonymous and just for my own personal enjoyment.

Just find out.

I want to see who the levels, who took the most of anything, you know?

Right.

See if there's any hollow tested in there or something.

It would be fun to see. Like what? Because Jiu jitsu is an open steroid using event. You. Have you heard of the enhanced games?

Oh, yeah, yeah. I was reading about.

I'm having those guys on. So the enhanced games is this. They're going to allow all the athletes to take performance enhancing drugs. And the idea is like, we should have athletes perform to the best way. I mean, I'm putting words in their mouth, but that's scientifically possible. And the best way scientifically possible is like. Like here's a for instance, like this Ryan Garcia fight. You know Ryan Garcia. He beats Devin Haney. Spectacular fashion, looks amazing, pops for austerine. Very low doses of austrian, which are not going to affect him in terms of performance enhancing ability during the fight itself. I don't know how he took it or what he took it. I know people have got an austerene accident, like sugar. Shawn O'Malley got it through tainted supplements. They proved it. It's more than once that's happened.

Yoel.

Yoel, yeah. Sued one. Yeah. Which is if you would think anybody would not be fucking natural. It's that guy.

How does he still look like he.

Does the cuban fucking athlete program.

That's how he's grappling. He's taking a grappling match in Britain against a grappler. Owen livesy. So we'll see. Have a grappling. Owens.

A beast. That. That's very interesting.

Who do you think takes it?

That's a good question. It's a very good question. I think Yoel was one of the very best cuban wrestlers ever. I mean, he's a fucking tank.

Yes. Silva medal at the Olympics. Adam Saitiev beat him, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's a monster, man. And physically he's just such an imposing force. Like, Luke Rockhold said that it hurt. Robert Whittaker said the same thing. He said, it hurts when you hit him. It's like he's made out of metal.

Probably hurts when he kisses you as.

Well after he knocks you out. Yeah, that was rough.

That's a rough way to go.

Well, you know, Luke likes to talk shit. And you talk shit to that guy.

I love you. He did the salsa dancing for the press conference. That was the best, too. Picking women out of the crowd. Eggs. You don't want it to take your missus. You'd be like, fucking sit back down.

I know. Exactly. That guy's such a fucking animal. I mean, I really wish he'd gotten into MMA earlier in his career. Would have been amazing to see, because I think when he entered the UFC, he was in his late thirties.

Yeah, he's like, 46.

He's 46 now.

That's crazy.

He still looks amazing.

That's Randy couture.

Yeah, but, like, he doesn't look 46. Like, Randy looked like a strong 46 year old.

I need that cuban style.

Yeah, his stack is not. I mean, I've told this story before for people that have heard it. I'm sorry, but one of the things that happened to Yoel, when he got injured, he fought in the UFC, and then they brought him to a doctor. He had an orbital fracture and some other issues. They brought him to the doctor, and the doctor said to the UFC, he said, where did you get this guy? And they. And he's like, yeah, he's amazing, right? He goes, no, you don't understand it. He goes, I've never seen a human being like this before. The tendons in his eyes are three times larger than a normal person's. He said his orbital bone is already healing, so this guy's a freak.

How do I get to that level?

I think you got to be born in Cuba, and they start messing around.

Shitty convicts. Genetics from Australia.

I think it's. I just wonder what they do in Cuba for the athletes, do you know what I'm saying? Casting any aspersions in terms of performance enhancing supplements?

There's only one way to find out.

Yeah, go there. Ask them. I don't know. You know, I don't know what they did, but, I mean, the guy's like Wolverine, but he's also a genetic specimen. I mean, there's only so much you could do with steroids. I mean, that guy.

I know. I've tried.

You don't even lift weights, which is so crazy. You're taking steroids without lifting weights.

I mean, from time to time, you know, just no good lifting. Program. A few pull ups here and there.

Yeah, but that does not, I don't think steroids are gonna, well, they're gonna help you recover and train.

Yeah, they definitely help your well being, I think.

Yeah. Well, if you're training 365, that's the argument, right? If you're training 365 days a year, like, that's also the argument for, like, tour de France. You know, I've heard it argued from people that really are experts that you're actually healthier to take steroids and performance enhancing drugs to do Tour de France than you are without it because your body just can't recover without, it's just so grueling. It's such a brutal race. There's a reason why so many of them are blood doping. So many of them are taking EPO and testosterone.

I always wanted to try EPO, actually. Like, some people criticize me for saying I take steroids in jiu jitsu, but the way I look at it is the kids, the next generation, they're gonna take it anyway. I at least want to put out, I put out my exact stats and I just want to send it out as almost like, it's like drugs just say no doesn't work. It's like I want to let them know I'm taking a safe amount of the doctor's guidance and that it's not a mystery where they're thinking, like, I have to take pump 1 gram a week and all this stuff to compete at a high level. So it's like a middle ground. Obviously you get criticized for it, but it's like the other option is they don't know what a high level athlete's taken and they fucking ruin their body taking crazy dosages.

Well, it'd be interesting. Like, what would jiu jitsu look like if steroids weren't legal? I mean, one of the things we found out when you saw it, it came into the UFC. Even though there was previous drug testing, it was really only during the weigh ins, which is kind of just an intelligence test. That's all it is. Like when you look at Alistair oveream versus Brock Lesnar, the idea that either one of those motherfuckers is clean is crazy talk. That's crazy talk. Especially Alistair. I mean, Alistair was, he fought when he fought 205 when he fought. Look at, like, back when he fought Chuck Liddell at 205 and then look at him at 265. He gained 60 pounds and he looks like a fucking superhero. Uberem. Like those days, like, when he won the K one Grand Prix and when.

He went Hari and stuff.

Oh, my God, I love it when.

They said the old days was an intelligence test, because many guys still failed that intelligence test.

Well, you know what it is? You know how it is. Like, you're in gyms. You have gym bros that are coaching you. They don't really know what the fuck they're talking about, but they say. Say a lot of good, big words, and you go, oh, this guy knows how to pass a test. And you rely on these meatheads to try to pass the test.

You need a Victor Conte on the line.

Hey, well, there's people that have those people. I'm sure there's people. I'm just guessing. Just throwing it out there, but I don't think everyone's clean. I think there's probably some really sophisticated. There's so much money involved in MMA now. There's probably some really sophisticated scientists that are working with elite athletes, and they're developing protocols that are either undetectable or they have a short lasting, like. Which is probably why USADA wakes you up at 06:00 in the morning. You know, the idea is, like, to catch you while it's still in your system. If you have short acting stuff that.

You'Re, like a test propionate or something. Like the water based?

Yeah, like, weren't they doing that in baseball? They were taking, like, testosterone gummies, and the idea is that they. They metabolize so quickly, you get the effect of them, but then they're out of your system by the time you get tested.

I tried those. Tasted like shit, you know? I don't know if they didn't think.

I mean, it's fucking gummy with testosterone. And how could it taste good?

Throw it under the tongue.

What does it taste like?

Just bad. Hey.

Like chemical?

Yeah, like, it sits there a while. I remember I was trying to get legal steroids in Australia when I was coming up, and I'll just. Couldn't do it. My doctor gave me the testosterone gummies. I was like, fuck this shit. It's like, I felt like it wouldn't work in Australia.

What are the laws like?

I mean, here, any. I think any GP can prescribe testosterone in Australia. You have to be, like, an endocrinologist. They added a layer to it, and it's hard to see an endocrinologist that's going to give testosterone to a young, healthy dude, you know?

Right.

Guys back there would do all sorts of crazy shit. Like, they're not sleep for a couple, couple days. They beat off a bunch of times, try and crash the levels, go get the blood check doctors, like, oh, your test is low.

Yeah. Well, another thing, the problem with the test being low, this is what they found with when they did it. They had testosterone use exemptions in the UFC for a brief amount of time, a few years. And those are the VTor Belfort years, you know. And the problem is, when a guy's done steroids his whole life, his endocrine system is fucked up already. So you go in there and they test your testosterone levels and you're like, wow, your levels are super low. Like, you need testosterone. Like, thank you. But the reason why they're low is because you've been on steroids your whole life.

Yeah. Your buddy doesn't. Doesn't make it anymore.

Yeah, I mean, you went. You look at VTor from the early days, like Vitor in UFC twelve when he fought Scott Ferozo and Trey Telegram. He weighed like 200 pounds.

You know, they used to call him Vito Gracie back then.

Victor. Victor Gracie. I was training at school.

Why'd they throw the c in there?

I don't. It was okay.

It was okay, Victor.

Yeah, it was. I don't know. I don't understand it. I don't know why they did that. And I know that. I think they were threatening to sue him if he used the Gracie name. I think some detective of that shit.

Hey.

Yes, I think was Orion Horian was very represented. Yeah. Where'd you get that?

Some brand sent it to me. I like it, though.

A dope shirt.

I should remember the name.

He was the fucking man, huh?

What's its name?

The shirt company.

Feel bad for him. Fuck it. People find it.

Is it on the back anywhere? Label. Don't say anything to see a tag.

Label us.

Wasn't saying the bottom. Was it there? Is that the name? Was the bottom? Say there. Oh, just says Hicks and Grace.

Oh, man, I feel bad for him. By a cool shirt honoring the OG.

It's pretty dope. He is the OG. He was the fucking man.

Cool motherfucker. Yeah.

You ever train with him?

I've never trained with him. Never met him.

Really? Interesting dude, man. Very interesting dude. I got a chance to watch Coliseum. Remember when he fought Funaki?

Was that his last one?

Yes. Yeah, I got a chance to watch footage of that with him in his house.

Oh, the one with the guy came to the gym route. Was it the gym challenge?

No, I didn't watch that. He didn't show me that.

Someone's gotta have that.

He's got it.

He's good. We gotta get that.

I know. I'm like, release that. Why don't you release that? That was yo g Anjo, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

He came to challenge match, just beat.

The foot, taped up his knuckles with duct tape, and beat the fuck out of him. And he go, yeah. And he's like, if we are competing, when you tap, it's over. If we're fighting, when I'm done, I'm done. I decide, he just beat the fuck out of that dude.

That's some scary shit. I feel I've sad for him now. He's got Parkinson's, right?

Who does?

I believe Hickson does.

Does he really?

I believe so. Yeah.

No kidding. I didn't hear that.

Yeah, I saw Kira Gracie announce something about it.

See, I always wonder. Cause we talked about Freddie Roach. Like, that's. That's trauma induced. Parkinson's. And, you know, Hickson didn't get hit a whole lot in his career, but he did get hit, you know, I always wonder. Yeah. Hicks and Gracie fight against Parkinson's. I'm not scared of death, but quitting is unacceptable. Rolling Stone magazine. Whoa. This is Rolling Stone? That's crazy. That is crazy that there's a Hicks and Gracie article in Rolling Stone. That's amazing. Wow. Fuck, man. Parkinson's.

I hope we get a cronbach.

I hope so, too.

He might come back to grappling, maybe.

Well, I mean, his last fight in MMA just looked like he was just trying to pull guard and work off his back, and it's just. He just didn't look like he's prepared.

I know a place he could do that. Yeah.

Do you think he would be willing? To me, he was such an elite grappler. The Gary Tonan match. What a fucking match that was. Holy shit, man.

Craziest shit ever.

That was before Gary was training with the Donahuer death squad, right? Wasn't it, either.

I mean, good question. After, if we saw the match, we'd see who was in the corner, because.

This is definitely before the leg lock days. Yeah, this was. This was a long time. Gary was dominating that fight until the very end.

Back in those days was crazy. I still miss Eddie Cummings. I'm like, what happened to him? You know what I mean?

Right. What did happen to him? That guy was.

I've tried to catch up with him a couple times in New York. Like, reached out. I just even want to have lunch with the guy I'm like, but he's like, he just left the grappling world, just vanished.

What is he doing?

No, I don't think anyone knows. He came back. I saw you in a couple videos. He came back to Henzo's and trained a couple times, but I think he doesn't like any media attention and, like, it circled around on Instagram and he just vanished again. Really?

No kidding.

So crazy. Gone. He was interesting guy.

Oh, he was an elite grappler too. Well, he was one of the very best of the leg lock guys in the early days.

He was scary. We all copied him, you know, he was a scary, scary dude.

Super smart, like, really intelligent guy.

And now. Yeah, he ended up with Atavia Bourdain, right?

Mm hmm. Yeah, they started dating when she started training at Enzo's, and I don't know what happened.

She compete? I think she competed in grappling a lot as well.

Yeah, she had fucked up knees, man. Her knees were all blown out. I remember trying to tell her to.

Get surgery to fix them up. Eddie kept breaking him. Probably not.

I don't know. But I think she had at least one with no ACL. Where?

That's. That's crazy.

Doesn't Nikki have a fucked up knee? Nikki Ryan.

Nikki Ryan does, man. Nikki Ryan gets injured every three minutes. You know what I mean? Does. He's made a glass. Unfortunately. I injured him. I came back, trained with him one round. Injured him the other day. I'm just like, fuck, bro. How does this happen? I felt bad. It's a bit of a weird scramble, but he just beat JT Tyros. Biggest win of his.

That was a big win. Yeah, he looked great in that. That was beautiful.

Yeah, he was training real serious for that.

But doesn't he have, like, one ACL that's gone?

Yeah, yeah, I remember he tore his ACL and the doctors were like, okay, we can attempt surgery or you can do rehab only. So he just did nothing and just kept training. He didn't even rehab the thing. I'm like, bro, do something. Yeah, he's wild.

That's not wise for the future, though.

Not at all. I mean, I think he had 95% of his meniscus removed in one of his legs.

Oh, God damn it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure one surgeon was like, I won't do that. You're too young for it, but you got it done.

Well, you know, they do meniscus replacements.

Oh, they do that?

Yes, they do cadaver meniscus replacements, especially with young people. It's really effective.

He works. He's got some mileage on the body, so it's like his knees.

God, I hope he does it, because he can do it. And it'll actually take.

We got him in this, though. He's gone after the million. That'll be exciting.

With a fucked up knee.

There's always something fucked up with him. You know, he's always injured in some way.

Well, isn't that the case? Just like with so many elite combat sports athletes, it's very rare. Other than boxers, it's very rare. There's a story going around about this NBA player who got a meniscus from a donor. Yeah. That mean it's a cadaver? Yes. They don't say cadaver at all? No, that's what they mean. They mean a donor. Yeah. No one's gonna give you their fucking.

Meniscus for the right price.

It's a cadaver donor. And like I said, it is. It's effective. It's possible for. I think there's an age where they don't recommend it anymore because of the lack of blood circulation. But I always wonder for who, though. Like, when they say, you know, you can't do it after 40, but for who? Like, for the regular person who is a 40 year old who doesn't work out and is not, like, physically fit. Or if you did that to, say, someone like, like stipe miocic, could he get a meniscus replacement when he's constantly training? But how much does your age affect blood flow to that area? What is the factor? It doesn't make sense. If you still have a great vo two max, you're still very fit and you're super healthy. You train all the time. You obviously have great circulation. I don't understand why at a certain age, they wouldn't recommend it. I wonder if it's based on averages. Like, you take the average 50 year old guy and you give it to him, and his knees still fucked up because his body didn't heal properly. But, like, with peptides, with all the things that are available today and stem cells, I wonder.

Yeah, there's got to be some things you do. Stack the deck.

So once you remove your meniscus. I have a meniscus was scoped in my left knee, and it's always going to be fucked up. There's always, like, something.

Yeah, it's just grinding, right.

Not all of mine is gone. It's only in a corner. But I suffered what's called a insufficiency fracture, where you're. Because there's no meniscus. I crashed skiing, and I cracked my bones together so hard that it cracked the top of my shin bone.

Skiing scares me.

Skiing is scared.

Snowboarding dangerous, all that.

That was my last time skiing. I got a concussion. I fucking banged my head off the ground real hard. And I was skiing around this corner and this light. This lady didn't know what she was doing. And she's like, that'd be me. And it was, well, you know, you learn. But she was on, you know, a fairly difficult trail. And I'm not a great skier, but, you know, I have good balance. I'm pretty. I'm okay. I know how to do it. But I was like, either I hit this lady and fucking kill her or I have to fall down. So I chose falling down and I fucking bang my head so hard. Like, as my head banged, I'm like, oh, that one counts. I was like, that's. No, it would have been bad. It would have been bad because she wasn't very large and I was no gabby. I wasn't going slow.

I want to see her on this.

Yeah, bro, that's like a bowling ball just fucking flying down the hill. I mean, all that weight, the momentum of all that weight. I imagine when you're really big, like, my kids ski and they're. They ski so easy because they're light and, like, wee wee, but the heavier you are, like, the more fucking momentum is coming down.

Lots of knee injury skiing.

Yeah. My friend Shane Dorian, he blew his fucking knee out snowboarding. He hit a tree torch, torched his knee. How to get it reconstructed and stem cells and all that jazz. And he's good to go now, but it took a long time before it was good, and I would imagine. And you're a professional surfer, one of the best in the world. Big wave surfer. I mean, he's a fucking monster. Like, I would do everything to preserve my goddamn knees. But he loves snowboarding so much, he's still back at it. I'm like, you're insane, man.

Yeah, that's crazy. That's crazy. You'd risk your career.

Your career. Well, I think he's kind of. His career as competition is kind of over. You know, he's just kind of a representative of a bunch of different brands. And I don't know if he competes. I mean, Kelly Slater still competes, competes, which is crazy. And still wins.

Kelly still trains.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I suppose that's risky for yourself.

Oh, yeah, that's got to be risky. It's got to be risky for everything. Like, I know guys who play musical instruments and they fucked up their hands and jiu jitsu. Like, broken a finger. I'm like, yikes.

Tattoo artist surgeons. It's like, maybe don't train.

Yeah, I mean, if you break a hand and that's the hand you play guitar with, and now you got these fucking gnarly ass fingers and you're still trying to move at the same speed.

Yeah, I heard some. My fingers. One time I got my thumb stuck up here and grappling, and another time my finger got stuck on the ground and went straight up. That was in Puerto Rico. Oliver Tazza broke my hand, and I went to the hospital in Puerto Rico. We got the x ray. I'm waiting around for hours, and the guy's like, it's fine. No brakes, nothing. So I leave, and then I'm like, my hands fucked up. So I go back and end up getting the x ray, and I can see it's broken. And I ended up getting it treated. I just posted it on instagram. I was like, any hand surgeons? What can I do for this? And we just spoke about it on Instagram.

What did he say to do?

I just left it like this for a while. Didn't really use it too much.

So was it a fracture in a sense, where they didn't have to bolt it together?

Yeah, it didn't have to bolt. It's the same one when people punch a wall or something.

Oh, okay.

Like, the one down here didn't need anything. But I mean, I just. I was a lot of puerto rican stories like that where I was like, yeah, your hand's not broken. I'm like, bro, I can see it's broken.

Not so good medicine over there.

No, not at all. Yeah, no, that was a. That was a wild place. Not good for getting antibiotics for staph either.

No.

Yes. I mean, I've had plenty of times where I've gone to the doctor and be like, this is staph. I need antibiotics. But they don't want to be told by some fucking idiot that they're, like, diagnosing themselves, giving themselves the treatment.

So they resist the.

Resist it on you? Yeah.

Really?

I've had doctors not give me antibiotics.

And then it's gone and tell you it's not.

They're like, no, you're fine. Just put some cream on it.

Boy, oh, boy. Yeah.

But I get it. They probably have guys coming all the time like, give me this. Give me this.

Right? But no one's coming in to get antibiotics for fun.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not like painkillers.

No, yeah, it's. I guess I could control them a bit, but. Yeah.

Just have to deal with, like, people coming in. Oh, hurt my back.

Yeah, my back. Give me some Xanax.

I'm having so much anxiety. I can't deal with this. They just want freak out enough in the office. Maybe they give you something just to calm you down.

That's a good. That's a good play.

Really. Depends on the doctor, because some doctors are just a little loose with it.

Yeah, true. I feel like, honestly, the more expensive the doctor, the better. The better your chances.

Oh, yeah.

Getting what you want.

Oh, yeah. I would imagine they probably have some sort of fucking deal too. Like, you know, my wife's mom was a nurse, and she would explain to me how the whole pharmaceutical rep thing working. Brigham? Brigham from Wastewell used to be a pharmaceutical rep. It's like, bro, like, the relationship they have with doctors is like, it's so slippery. Yeah, it's so slippery. Because, you know, even if they're not paying you, and they do pay people, but even if they're not, like, this is your friend, they show up at Brigham, was like, I would show up at the kids softball games. I knew everybody's name. You become friendly, they want to prescribe your drugs. You're a good guy. Yeah, it's fucking creepy, but, like, that's.

The opioid epidemic and stuff like that, right?

Oh, that's exactly it. Did you ever watch that show painkiller on Netflix?

I started, but I never finished it. Fucking lazy.

Oh, it's so fucked up. How those people are not in jail is insane. Not only did they bullshit people and get people to prescribe these things, but they ruined who knows how many lives, hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, dead from opioid overdoses. And then the amount of lives that are destroyed because of those things. Families wrecked everything. And they tricked people. They tricked them into doing drugs that are going to be.

They just paid a fine, right? Massive fine. That's all that happens.

Yeah, but not enough. Also, part of the fine was that they were going to avoid prosecution. Like, if they paid, you know, x amount of billions of dollars, they would avoid prosecution. But I think then Painkiller came out, the documentary came out, the Netflix series, and then they kind of withheld that. And I think one of the guys who was the main guy for the FDA that was responsible for green lighting, OxyContin and oxycodone, that guy, they found him. He was in a small town in New Hampshire.

He's hiding away.

He was hiding and. Yeah, I mean, they paid him off, and this fucker was out there roaming around, and they found him, and he's like, Epstein harassing him.

Epstein's girlfriend. Hey.

Except she's in jail somewhere.

Yeah. They get her eventually.

Yeah. Eventually she's gonna get out and she's gonna fucking go swimming and drown or something.

Yeah. Cherry. Cherry. I mean, that'll be me after this tournament, I reckon.

Do you worry about that?

I mean, it should be all right.

That's not comforting. It should be all right.

Yeah. I mean, it's just a bit of friendly competition.

It is that, but it's also like you're specifically going head to head. Like, if you had done it a month earlier, a month later, I don't think you'd have the same issue.

I don't think we have the same impact on the sport, though, either.

I think you would.

We'll do it. We'll do it a month after as well.

Wow.

Oh, cool. My buddy. Bro, we need another million, brother. Let's go on again.

But you want to do it once a year, right? You don't want to do it more than once a year?

Yeah. Honestly, I'm on the phone nonstop a talking to people about this event and stuff. Got to explain everyone the rule set.

Yeah. And becoming a promoter, I mean, do you have to hire a staff now? Do you have to hire all these people to run the thing?

I mean, I'm the ideas guy. You know, my business partner, Seth Bilal, I'm like, he's doing all the coordination and stuff. But me, I'm just talking to the athletes, coming up with the rules, sort of.

So he does all the coordination, like hiring the staff, making sure the event is well run. Because I would imagine if you've never run an event before, like, that's obviously. You can't call Abu Dhabi and ask for tips. You call it.

I should.

You call Eddie Bravo.

Yeah, I spoke that he loves it. That's like.

Yeah, he's very excited about it.

Little hat tip to him with the name as well.

Yeah. I think the having something where there's more money involved is always good. It's just like, the timing of it. It's like when to do it. I just. If you'd asked me, I would say.

They still get to watch the finals, you know?

Well, yeah, true. They still gotta watch finals. They get to watch the finals. But you won't have the same people competing because if they're gonna compete on Friday and Saturday. That precludes them from being able to compete in Abu Dhabi.

I mean, yeah, for sure. Do you want the gold medal in ten k or the million, though?

That's right.

That's the argument.

That is the argument. Right. And it's. It's certainly, look, competition is almost always good. It. Even when people don't like it, it forces them to up their game. And I think at the end of the day, it's going to be good for the athletes and good for the sport because it'll make people more. And the beef. The beef will, you know, two pack, biggie.

I'm going down in Vegas. Like, two pack did.

Remember how both of those guys died, though, by the way? They died very badly. Tupac and Biggie. Like, it would have been better if Tupac and Biggie just kind of worked it out. Like, I mean, even like, Drake and Kendrick, like, that was entertaining. Hey, but Drake's house got shot at. You know, like, someone. Didn't a security guard get shot?

I think he got shot. Yeah. Yeah.

And then.

But we got some good music sort.

I didn't.

Security guy took the hit. I mean, yeah. Yes. I'm. Some of the songs are good. I just find it foolish, the base.

I'm not a beef guy. I feel like those guys could have wrote banging songs. They both put out four songs each. You know, it's like, use that creativity and just.

Yeah, I guess if you driven.

I mean, I get it, I get it. It's part of the culture. I get it. Don't get me wrong, like, I like roast battles.

Love them. Yeah.

Do comedy.

They should have pay per view.

That would have been amazing. Yeah, that would have. That would have been amazing. Yeah. Rap battles are awesome. It's just, you know, it's another opportunity to write. It's another opportunity to create something and it's high pressure. Yeah. So in that sense, this rivalry between ADCC and the CJI, you know, just.

One australian idiot versus city, you know, see what happens.

Yeah. Versus a monarchy.

Monarchy, yeah. But I mean, I still love, at 66, love history, you know, I think you can wash that away. It's amazing.

Yeah. Um, do you think you could ever compete for them again or do you think that's over now?

I mean, I wouldn't do it for ten k. I don't know. I mean, who knows? The doors. The doors open for anything. I don't take any of this stuff too seriously at all. You know what I mean? A lot of it's just fun on the Internet, like, I don't really, you know, like, fucking around, having a good time, you know, like, I'll do anything for the right price. So it's like, if the spectacles there, if people are interested in it.

Right. So you would go back if they would have you back, for sure.

And ultimately, what I want and what I wanted from day one was just athletes across everything in jiu jitsu to be compensated just a little bit more.

Mm hmm.

You know, because, again, we don't have the prestige.

So if they had ramped it up from ten to 20, you would done this.

Wouldn't really.

Wow. Boy, they're probably going, fuck, yeah.

That's. That's really what sort of kicked it off. But also, I wanted to do, like, this is opportunity to start up our nonprofit and stuff. So it's like, gives me opportunity to give back in other ways.

So with your. This attitude about not taking things so seriously, do you think you and Gordon would ever bury the hatchet?

I mean, for sure, but take some MDma. We'll get to the bottom of it, you know, I think he needs it. You know what I mean?

Don't you think, though, that for a guy to be as dominant as he is, you have to be that guy that's like Michael Jordan in his prime. They said if you beat him in a game of pool, he wouldn't talk to you for, like, two weeks. It's just, you have to be kind of a psycho.

I know, but you see, I guess you see the contrast in some areas. Like, in my opinion, Volkanovski, was that GSP, was that.

But really nice guys.

Yeah. Anderson Silva, was that, like. Again, I don't think Gordon's. I mean, it's hard to say what he is. You know, it's like. It's hard. I don't know him that well. You know, I know what the image he puts out. I know a little bit of the stuff behind the scenes, but.

But you trained with him for years. You gotta know him.

Yeah, no, but you know what jiu jitsu guys are like. If I can get on the mats, I don't want to hang out with them afterwards. Fucking weirdos. Who wants to have a conversation with the jujutsu guy?

Me. That's why you're here.

Well, some of them. Some of them fucking. Some of them a bit odd, you know?

You know, don't you think that, like, I love him.

I'm part of it, but odd people.

Would make the world go round, though.

Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure. I'm not criticizing. I'm fucking weird. Look at. I'm doing.

Yeah, definitely weird.

But some people I find cool, easy to talk to.

I know. It's just for me, as a guy who likes both of you guys, I don't like that you don't talk anymore. I don't like that you have this beef, and I've asked Gordon to define it. He can't. He does it. Doesn't define it. It's very difficult. He doesn't say anything bad about you, but he doesn't define it.

I mean, I just love fucking around. Like Australia. We love attacking each other. Like, I say worse things to my friends than I say to Gordon. You know what I mean?

Listen, I'm a comedian. I know about that. So it's like I just talk wild shit to each other, too.

Some guys are so good to provoke. You get a good fucking reaction out of them, you know?

Well, with comedians, you know, who you can hang out with by, who can take shit, you know? Because, like, if someone makes fun of me, if it's funny, I, like, laugh. But if you make fun of some people and they're like, hey. They're like, oh, look at you. Softly.

You just lost up.

You fucked up. You take yourself seriously. You just take what you do seriously, but you never take yourself seriously. That's so silly. There's no benefit to that because then you don't get to enjoy the laughs when someone makes fun of you. Someone makes fun of you, and it's real. Like, if you're watch kill Tony.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, when David Lucas and Tony henchcliffe go at each other, it is one of my favorite things in life. They're both so fucking ruthless and hilarious. But if David gets Tony, Tony laughs hard. And if Tony gets David, David laughs hard. They laugh. They love each other. They're really good friends, but they're fucking ruthless when it comes to that shit. When they're roasting each other, but they're having a good time. Like, if you roast someone and they get, like, actually upset as a comedian, all the other comedians would be like, oh, look at you. You're upset at a joke, you fucking hypocrite. Like, what's wrong with you?

Well, I mean, that's what I mean. Gordon. Gordon says, bro, you suck. You never want anything. I'm like, bro, I could as old you that, you know, relax.

Is that, like, that's the. What is the beef, though? Like, it doesn't make sense.

I mean, for me, I'm just having a good time. Like, it's like, I'm in a sport of people to take themselves very seriously, right? And it's just. He takes himself very seriously, so it's just like.

So you like picking on him?

I like, yeah. Anyone? You know what I mean? Like, I mean, like what you say with comedians, you know, if someone's to get a ten.

Yeah.

And it's good material. He's like, he's just walking good material, you know? It's like he's provoking me. Well, he would just post something that I'm like. I swear, I'm like, this guy's playing a fucking character. He's a genius, but it's real. Like, he's baiting me. I gotta say something.

Well, you are probably the funniest guy in jiu jitsu, other than Eddie. Eddie's hilarious.

Eddie loves the jokes, too. He gets. Sometimes I pass on him some deeper levels of the jokes, and he gets the full story. Loves it. We go deep conspiracy on the jiu jitsu jokes.

Oh, no, Eddie's. Eddie's fucking hilarious. He's one of the funniest people I've ever met. I'm so glad he's doing standup again, too, because I tried to talk him into doing stand up a long time ago, like, back in, like, 2001, and I was like, dude, I'm telling you, just try. It'll suck at first, but just like, it sucked when I learned jujitsu. You suck at first, but you have the ability to do it.

Overcome.

Yeah, he took a long time off it, but when he was teaching, he would teach classes and especially seminars. He would have, like, material.

Oh, yeah.

During seminars, it was hilarious. And then he's like, I think I'm gonna do comedy again. So teaching seminars, that's what I did.

I'll say the same joke, and then I'll look over, and I'll be like, fuck, that guy was at another seminar. I'll say the same thing. I'm like, he knows.

He knows my tricks. Yeah, yeah. That's the problem with jokes.

Yeah.

If they already know the jokes, it's like, a little bit of an issue.

And I'm like, fuck, if I said this a few too many times now. Yeah, switch topics.

Yeah, you got to make new stuff up. You got to make up new, new stuff for seminars. When you go and do seminars, do you find it. It's a lot. It's a lot of MMA fighters that are wanting to learn jiu jitsu. Is it just jiu jitsu, guys? Is it a mixture?

I mean, nowadays, like, man, it's like such a variety of people. Like, sometimes even beginners, like, white belts, will show up, and it's like they're just coming to hang out, you know? Like, I love doing seminars all around the world and just meeting the people that are doing the sport, you know, and, like, I keep them at a really affordable price because I always remember when people would come to my city, like, sometimes the seminars are so expensive, I couldn't afford it. So I just insist we book a big venue would keep the prices low, and I just get to see who from that country is participating in the sport, you know? I just love it is that you.

Enjoy that more than competing now. Just going around and doing seminars.

I enjoy like, it. Like, all aspects of it, you know? Like, obviously too many seminars. Exhausting. I've done, like, back to back to back to back. I like the seminar. Be 3 hours and then out of there. Otherwise, it's too much social interaction, you.

Know, we probably also don't absorb anything. After 3 hours, it's like.

And I have to roll. Like, I still run the gauntlet. I try to roll as many people as possible.

That's gonna be hair raising.

They fucking try to kill me. Yeah, I'm sure you paid to come and you like me. What are you doing to me? Yeah, I'll be hungover, jet lagged, and it'll be like, I'll be doing. I'll do, like, sometimes 1 hour, one and a half hours straight, and you go every three minutes.

Oh, God.

And I'm like, what are you doing to me, bro? It's fucking 1 hour in. You're trying to kill me. Yeah, after a while, test your patience. That's like meditating, you know? I'm just like, I don't kill this guy.

That's one of the legendary Hickson stories, that Hickson would do a seminar and then take all the black belts there and just tap them one after another.

I try to do fucked up shit to people, though, you know?

Like. Like what?

Just cry? Just stupid submissions, you know? That keeps it entertaining for me.

Crab walks, like, yeah, the Boston crab.

I love hitting a Boston crab. A. I'm like, you will remember that forever.

You see that one guy who did it in MMA?

Yeah, he is. Yeah.

So crazy, man.

That would hurt. I've never been put in it, but, yeah.

What is it a flexibility thing? Is it a spine thing?

I think it'll break your spine.

Yeah.

I do it to people from Mount Dog. I give a mount, and then I put my toes in the armpits, take them over the top. Boston Crabbut. That's some fun at the seminars, just hitting fucked up shit on people in front of their friends, I think that's the most enjoyable thing.

Yeah. Here's the dude who did it in MMA.

How did he set it up?

Jesus, he just climbed over the top and got his legs.

The other guy looks like he's fighting for his life, but nothing's happening.

Well, the other guy looks a little out of shape, too. He's just a little noogies to the face. It's like he's already ready for it.

It almost looks fake.

I. I don't think it's fake. I think it's just a low level MMA show. Wow. That's crazy.

Fuck. That guy would never hear the end of that a. I remember a guy used to train with. He actually sponsors me, and he had an MMA fight, and he tapped. He won for three rounds, and a minute ago, I think 30 seconds ago, he crossed his leg from back, and the guy knocked him, and I fucking remind him of it to this day. It's been years.

That is a crazy submission.

That hurts, you know?

Oh, it hurts like hell, but you gotta imagine, like, if you're winning the fight. I've. I don't think I've ever seen an MMA fight where someone tapped to that.

I'll send it to him, but guys do it.

Guys do it. Even Hickson did it when Hixon submitted Funaki. He's crossed his legs. You guess he just rather have the squeeze, and if the guy threatens it, he'll let it go.

Yeah. Sometimes I think it's about being relaxed. It's like if you're doing this, they can catch it really tight. But if your ankles are relaxed, sometimes they slip off. Off the top.

Right.

I think relaxing in those positions sometimes helps.

Well, also being hyper aware of when the guy lifts his leg up to try to lock it, but, yeah, I've had it done to me before. It's fucking horrible.

People try to do that to me at seminars, like, they'll try and play around and then catch me or some shit. I'm just like, fucking relax, guy. Fucking. Yeah.

You have to always be aware, right, because you're dealing with people trying to get a reputation.

Try to break my legs, everything.

Have you ever tapped at seminars?

Yeah, I tapped, but I'll give them a couple more so they don't believe it, you know, their friends who believe, they get me once, but not three times, you know?

What do you mean?

Like, if a blue belt taps me to seminar one time, maybe people believe.

So you let them tap you a.

Couple times, a couple more, you know?

Oh, so you throw in a few.

Fake tabs, the story for them, tap.

Craig Jones three times.

Yeah, once maybe.

And they're like, wait a minute, I tapped you. How the fuck you tapping Craig Jones? That doesn't even make sense.

Take the story away from him.

What have you ever tapped to at.

A seminar, actually, I had a seminar at Kenan's gym and a guy got me into north, south. But I tap at seminars from time to time, cuz I fuck around. I'll give him mount, give my back, right, mamba. And then I'm always like, guys, I'm gonna give you positions. But like, fuck, if you get it, I'll tap. Like, yeah, relax. Yeah, I got shit to do. That.

Yeah, don't grow my neck.

Yeah, they try. Yeah, some guys try to kill you.

Necks are a bad one too, man. When you get a hurt neck. Like, when guys get like, al ja Mane got his disk replaced in his neck, and I was like, ooh, and your neck is gone. Like, that's a fucking creepy one.

That's crazy. Yeah, I think I just retire that point, you know?

Chris Weidman got his dick disk. Dick. Sorry, Chris. I think he got his disk replaced as well. I think you have the same thing. And there's a few guys have had disk replaced in their back and in their neck. You know, they can do that titanium articulating disk now, like, where it allows your neck to move pretty normally, but, you know, like, how long does that last?

I just tap to everything and not put in much effort. And I feel like, keeps my body safe, you know what I mean? Like, if I'm trying, if I'm training and the guys going hard, I'm like, are you got it, bro. Like, yeah, let's just.

That's smart. But that's an ego thing. You have a healthy ego.

I'm just like, who cares? You know? Like, it's like, yeah, that's the point, you know?

Well, it's definitely better than going out like, you know, Vinny, Vinnie Magalais letting your fucking leg get destroyed like that. If you can just relax like that and allow yourself to get tapped, you will save so many injuries.

I control the security footage in the cameraman, though, so, you know, I make the footage disappear if he gets me.

Oh, in your gym?

Yeah. That's reassuring. Get. Delete that.

That's the problem, right? Guys want to release footage.

I want to sell it hey, like, if people come to the gym, I'm like, bro, I'll let you tap me.

Give me some money.

Yeah, you can take it home.

Well, listen, Craig, good luck on this. I really hope it works out. I hope ADCC isn't too pissed at you, and I hope you've started a trend, and I hope this is going to. Look at that.

The bowls.

I hope it. 80 days, 20 hours, 58 minutes and 47 seconds until it starts from right now.

That's not reassuring. That's close.

It is. 80 days is not a long amount of time, but I hope it works out and I really hope that it elevates the sport. And at the very least, it's getting some eyeballs. Eyeballs on the sport.

Thanks for letting me talk about it.

My pleasure. So tell everybody how to find you on instagram and how to find the website for the event.

Yeah, craig jonesbgj.com. we'll sell tickets to this. Sorry, Craig Jones, BJJ for Instagram. Unlv.com is where tickets will be up on the 31st.

So at the Thomas and Mac website.

Thomas and Mac website. And then fair five foundation is the. Is the website with all the information. That's what we saw there. And CJI official is the Instagram page where it's meant to be professional. But it's gonna be mostly memes.

Mostly memes.

Mostly memes and jokes.

Okay.

We had a spelling around the poster. We left it. You know, I was like, fuck, we fucked up. We'll commit to it.

All right, beautiful. All right, man. Well, good luck and make sure you count all that before you leave. All right, thank you. Bye, everybody.