Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. It's just an honor to be able to spend some time with you today right now. I want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that could help you create a better life. I just think that's super cool that you're putting yourself first. I have a question for you. When was the last time you had a great night's sleep? You know, the kind where you wake up and you You jump out of bed and you feel so energized and refreshed and focused. Wouldn't it be great if you woke up tomorrow and you're like, Oh, I feel so great. Well, I'm on a mission to help you feel that exact way because a renowned sleep scientist from Harvard is here in our Boston studios to prove to you that sleep is your superpower. She has seven simple, free, and science-back tips that will help you and the people that you love get better sleep and wake up feeling refreshed, energized, focused, and in control. Doesn't that sound great? I thought so. So let's do this. Hey, it's Mel. Do you want to know the real reason why you're always so tired?

It's because you're not doing the these simple things every single day. Based on research, these simple things that you're going to learn today will help you get a great night's sleep and wake up feeling refreshed, energized, focused, and in control. And that's why I cannot wait for you to meet Dr. Rebecca Robbins. She is going to change your life and the lives of everyone that you share this episode with because she's here to walk you through seven simple things that you can do every single day that will help you tap into this superpower of sleep. Dr. Robbins is a world-renowned expert and researcher on sleep and circadian rhythm. She's a professor at Harvard Medical School and a research investigator in the Division of Sleep and Cercadian Disorders and the Departments of Medicine and Neurology at Brigham and Women's Hospital here in Boston. Her research has been published in some of the most renowned medical journals. In fact, the The list of her research studies is so long. I could read it to you, but I don't want to put you to sleep. We're going to do the opposite here, okay? We're going to wake you up and energize you using her science.

Dr. Robin's name might sound familiar because a couple of months ago, I shared her research on sunlight in the morning in our wildly popular episode that we did called Three Small Decisions That Make You Feel Incredible. Do this every morning after waking up. You love that episode so much. You shared that episode so many people in your life that I was like, Holy cow. I called up Dr. Robbins over at Harvard. I asked her to cross the Charles River and come to our studios in Boston. And guess what? She is here. So let me tell you a little bit about her. Dr. Robbins received her PhD from Cornell University and completed postdoctoral training at both NYU and Harvard, where she specialized in sleep and circadian disorders. She's the author of a book on techniques for how to get good sleep entitled Sleep for Success. She's here today for you to share very simple tips for a better night's sleep. If you do what Dr. Robbins teaches you today, you will feel more energized, focused, and in control of your life. So please help me welcome Dr. Rebecca Robbins to the Mel Robbins podcast. Thank you for having me.

Well, I would love to start by having you speak directly to the person listening. If they take everything that you're about to share and teach us to heart, what could you expect to change about your life if you follow the advice you're about to give us about sleep? Today, we're going to cover some of my favorite tips and strategies that are evidence-based and start to night to get a better night's sleep. If you can make a couple small changes and get a little bit more, a little bit better quality sleep, I'm biased, I'm a sleep scientist, but you will be amazed. Some of the findings include better productivity, our Our relationships improve, our mental health improves. Then into the long term, our research is uncovering that our sleep every night plays an important role in the quality of our life as we age and also our risk for neural cognitive decline.

So many things can fall in line when we put sleep really high up on our priority list. Oh, that's great. You're here to tell us that there are small things that you can do to help you be a better sleeper. Before we jump in and we just start to unpack all the cool things that we can that are in our control, I wonder if we could just zoom out a little bit. Because when you're feeling tired and overwhelmed and just beaten down by your life, can you just explain as a sleep researcher how working on sleep is going to impact every area of your life.

You hear a lot now about brain fog, about fatigue, about low energy levels, and people seeking answers online. It's It's just like we're focusing on the symptoms instead of the cause. One of the driving forces of some of those symptoms that many people are experiencing is insufficient or poor quality sleep. Many of us are struggling. Two out of three Americans are not getting the sleep that they biologically need in a consistent manner. But in addition, we have a problem of poor quality sleep. Anywhere between 20 and 50% of Americans struggle with one of two difficulties, and that's either struggling to fall asleep or maintain sleep.

Waking up at 2, 3 o'clock in the morning and struggling to fall back asleep. Those struggles contribute to poor quality sleep. Our research in our lab has shown that fewer than 3 in 10 Americans report waking up and reporting that their sleep is restorative. That's what it's all about, because if we're spending time in bed and it's not restorative sleep that we're getting, what's the point? But some of the behavioral tips and strategies that we'll get into are really how you unlock that restorative sleep that we're all after. Why do so many people wake up feeling so tired? I think it comes back to conversations. I've seen them on social media, inter-personally. It's almost part of our day-to-day narrative as a society. How are you tired? I hope one day we could flip that. But unfortunately, when we do say, I'm feeling great, I'm feeling well-rested, that's not often looked as very positively in our society. I hope that one day that changes. I think we're moving away from the notion of, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

We're finally, I think, collectively waking up to the importance of sleep as a population.

We still have so far to go. But there used to be this idea of, I'll sleep when I'm dead. I'll take hours from my sleep and magically add it back to my day. But that comes at a price, and we can probably all attest to this. But If you wake up and haven't gotten enough sleep, your body is operating well below its potential, not only from our physical health, our emotional health, our cognitive health, so many decrements when we're not getting enough sleep. But I think that when we can put sleep at the really high on our priority list, maybe even at the core of everything that we do, and I'm not talking about crazy sweeping changes. What's so exciting about sleep is a lot of these are really small things. It's just cutting screens out a little bit earlier in your evening, maybe having dinner a little bit earlier, doing a couple of the relaxation exercises that we're going to be talking about can offer a number of benefits in terms of our ability to fall asleep and get into the deeper sleep that supports our waking success. Wow, that's so interesting. Dr. Robbins, why do all of these tips and evidence-back interventions matter so much?

What's so powerful about sleep, it's just this great equalizer. But what's also so interesting is we never receive formal training about sleep, really not in school. Even medical doctors receive only about 20, 25 minutes in the average medical curricula about sleep, which is a huge problem when you think about it, because so many of us are struggling.

We talked about some of the It creates this culture of, well, if my primary care provider doesn't fully understand sleep, what might happen is a lot of pharmacological interventions, and there is a time and a place for that.

But What's so interesting about sleep is even in clinical trials that pids meds pharmacological intervention against behavior, what we find is that the behavioral change when we can successfully implement some of these strategies that we've talked today, that actually wins out in terms insomnia symptoms with people who are really struggling, then the medications over time, which is so amazing. I want to make sure the person listening just heard that. In clinical studies, when you put medication up against the behavioral changes that we're talking about today, that the behavioral changes over time beat insomnia and the insomnia drugs over and over and over again. Isn't that so powerful? It's really powerful because it tells us that small changes add up over time and that, yes, you are designed to and you can learn to sleep and get the rest that you deserve and wake up energized. It begins with these small changes. Wow. How does sleep impact the memory and the brain, Dr.

Robbins? Sleep and the brain are really fascinating areas. It turns out that during sleep, we not only rinse and repeat and rehearse some of the memories that we took in from the day, but we also start to put them into storage and figure out, importantly, where they should go in the brain, which when you think about it, is a fascinating exercise and so important as we learn things, we're exposed to new things in the world around us. Our brain does this amazing process at night, during sleep, of where should I file this away? And importantly, what memory should I hold on to and which can I let go?

Because we're exposed to so much information. We learn so much now more than ever with our phones in our pockets. The information that we're exposed to is enormous and our brains are amazing, but they It couldn't possibly store all of that information. And so there's this fascinating process called pruning that takes place during sleep, where we try to figure out our brain, what memories can it let go of and which should it keep and where should those memories be stored? We really are starting to uncover and believe that dreaming is one of the ways that this happens. During dreaming, it's almost like the brain is throwing spaghetti against a wall to see, okay, the events from today, where do they fit in our existing networks of the brain? When we put sleep at the center, so many positive outcomes come in terms of our learning, our memory, and for students, academic excellence. If I can extract what you just said and try to give it back to you to make sure that I'm tracking, I always think of this example of a giant library. During the day, the books are out and they've been given to people to read.

When you lay down in bed and you fall asleep, that's when the books come back to the library and they get on the proper shelf. That's your brain learning how to file memories. This pruning process, is that what you call it? Yes, I love that analogy. Okay. Maybe figuring out, Oh, that book wasn't widely read, so maybe we'll send it to a sister library.

Got it. You also prioritize what's important. Which is so fascinating. Then the other thing that you said that I think is really, really important to understand. Oh, my God, I just had literally a menopause brain fog thing. I must not have gotten a great night's sleep last night because I had such a good thing That was what were you just talking about? Learning, memory.

That was it. Okay, see, everybody, you're not the only one with brain fog. We're all here to learn how to sleep better.

But this is super important that you're basically saying that a critical part of learning and locking in a new skill or a habit happens during sleep. If you're having trouble making new habits stick, or if you're studying for the Series 7, or you're studying for a standardized test or some exam coming up, or you've got a huge presentation motivation that you have coming up for work, sleep and putting sleep at the center of how you're taking care of yourself helps you lock in the learning, helps you perform better. That's what you're saying based on the research? Exactly. But when you walk into any college campus, any corporate environment, you almost hear the opposite. People saying, Oh, I'm going to stay up late to crank through this report. I'm going to pull an all-nighter to study more, to give myself more time. Let me take more hours in my day away from my sleep and add it back to my productivity. It really throws that notion on its head, right? Because all the research shows that when we prioritize sleep, our learning improves, our productivity improves.

The next day you wake up and you're able to accomplish what you would have otherwise done in a fraction of the time. Terrific. That's super clear. We are going to jump into these seven strategies that you have that will help you become a better sleeper. What is one of your favorite tips in order to get better sleep? One of my favorite tips for a great night's sleep is this idea that routine is absolutely queen. We're really not meant to keep different sleep schedules as human beings.

Falling asleep at 2:00 AM one night, 10:00 PM the next. So understanding the circadian rhythm helps us understand how vitally important consistency is in our sleep routines, because then our brain and our body starts to understand when it should be tired and prepare for sleep and when it should be awake.

Then it allows ourselves to better organize ourselves and get a lot out of our sleep episode. The best sleep comes when we're keeping our sleep times consistent, so falling asleep at the same time and waking up as close to the same time as possible. Is that takeaway number one, then climbing into bed so you have a consistent time that you're signaling that you're going to start the process of falling asleep and having your alarm ring at roughly the same time is one of the first things we want to do? Absolutely. I think we're slaves to our alarm clocks. Yes. But we don't I'll really talk about the wind down time.

It's like a fuzzy idea, fuzzy game plan. It's not a, Okay, 10:30 is when I'm going to start to power down. I'm going to get off my phone. I'm going to boil a small cup of tea, herbal tea, and then start my bedtime ritual and wind down routine, which is an essential part of sleep.

We always think, Oh, now's time. Now feels pretty good for sleep, but it takes time. You are a world You're a down-sleep researcher and scientist. What is your wind down routine? My wind down routine is one thing that I am very diligent about. It's not complex, but I'm very diligent about the time. I do my best. The best case scenario is it's 8:30, my boys are down, and then I do a couple. Maybe I clean up a tiny bit around the house. I start to turn the lights off, and then I go upstairs and I turn my phone off.

There are days where I need to be working and plug back But I wash my face, I take a shower, and then I do one breathing exercise.

I sit cross-legged on the ground in my bedroom. I'm turning lights off as I move into the bedroom, and I do one breathing exercise. I don't set an alarm, but I just do it until I feel like I've gotten rid of that busy mind that has served me so well over the course of the day. Sometimes that's five times on busier, more stressful days. Sometimes that's seven rounds of this. But it's the military breathing technique. I breathe in through my nose for a count of four. I hold for seven. Then I exhale, purse my lips for eight. Those times are longer than you think, right? The seven and the eight, really, you're fighting for the breath at the end. That's the benefit of that technique. It restricts and restrains the breath and can help calm the heart rate and calm your mind. Now, while I'm doing that, thoughts are flying in because, of course, of what I forgot to do or I need to do. I come back to this idea of, No, not now. Now is my time. I've done things for my students, my partner, my kids all day, and now is my time to restore and relax.

If anything, any thoughts are still fighting to the surface, I write those down at my night stand. I've done the 4-7-8 technique, and then I mosey into my bed. I read a couple of pages in a I do progressive muscle relaxation. I clench and release every muscle group starting from the toes, and I inhale, clench, and then exhale, release. I really add on to that something, like something that I'm letting go, heaviness or a thought that's not serving me. Then I say a prayer and I go to sleep. It doesn't happen every night, but that's my ritual. I use the word ritual purposefully because you want to cultivate a ritual. A ritual is something you do every time. It's thoughtful. It's one, two, three, boom, sleep is next. For you listening, what are the three things that you can do tonight and tomorrow night and really institute as your ritual that you can ideally also take on the road when you travel? Be diligent. Try to do those every single night, because then what the brain starts to understand is what comes next to sleep. Do you find that in your research, that the people that are struggling the most with sleep don't have this wind down routine?

They're not diligent about this ritual and the consistency of it and practicing these steps that help you fall asleep and stay asleep? It's a great question. I think it comes back to this idea that we're so used to getting what we wanted quickly, whether it's our food or a coffee or getting a subway or an Uber. We're used to things happening quickly when we we want them to.

Our brain is hardwired to crave consistency, to be able to expect what's coming next by keeping our schedules consistent, by giving our brain that sense of normalcy. Then falling asleep faster into deeper sleep is more within our reach. Quick question. What is the average amount of time that it takes to fall asleep? When should we get out of bed because it's not happening?

This is a great question, and I think a big area to promote awareness about because we think that we just should be able to crawl into bed and flip our brains off like a switch. It's wrong. Sleep is a process. Falling asleep actually takes time. More than a lot of people realize, even a healthy sleeper with no problems should take about 15 or 20 minutes to fall asleep. That's countered. So many people will say, Oh, I can fall asleep anywhere. As soon As I get into the airplane at Logan, I'm out. I'm snoring before even the announcement. My husband's like that. I literally, he hits the pill and he's like,. Now I've got to try to fall asleep while you're already snoring.

He just drops in like it's his job. He might be a little sleep-deprived. I'd love to talk to him and make sure he's getting enough sleep.

But if you're able to fall asleep right away, it's generally a sign that you're not getting enough sleep. Really? If you're starved for food and you sit down and you have a huge meal and keep eating and eating, it's probably because you're starved for sleep because it's not, of course, healthy to have enormous meals. And so same thing with sleep. If you're starved for sleep, your brain is going to, hopefully you're not in a place like driving a car or anything that would be safety critical.

But if you're not getting enough sleep, sleep will come because it's a biological necessity. And so when we go without it, our body works desperately to get it. So 15 to 20 minutes.

And that's both for when you climb in at your bedtime, when the bedtime wind down routine happens. That's also how long it might take you to drift back to sleep if you do wake up in the middle of the night. These are such good questions. We just wrote a paper on how to help a researcher conceptualize these different steps because they're a couple, right? The time that you want to be winding down at night, maybe you're walking around your house, your lights are low, you're lighting candles, ideally. Oh, my God. That's not going on in my house. I'm like, Who didn't turn off the lights? Where are the dogs? Did you lock the door?

It's The shutdown is happening. I need to play some music and light some candles. It is like, Get through bed, people. I love it. I mean, you're not alone, so many of us, right? Especially with kids and other moving parts.

But Find a way is to draw a little inspiration from these things, right? Look, I'm not saying let's all spend two hours in a candle-lit environment before mid-time. No, but I think this is really... What you're doing is you're taking a spotlight and you're highlighting Taking something that is within your reach to do.

When you understand that it is coming from a world-renowned sleep scientist at Harvard, that thinking about the way you turn yourself down. I think about, I turn down the house. We turn off all the lights.

I love that. You lock the doors. The dogs run into their crates and get a little treat. You say good night to the kids. You make sure the cat's outside. Hold on. This all sounds wonderful, Belle. I don't have any candles.

You know what I'm saying? But there is this signaling that happens. Exactly. Look, that's actually part of your wind down routine. Maybe as you do those things, you're consciously looking at it as that. You're maybe slowing down your breath. When the dogs are out, you're consciously not on your phone, you're starting to switch into a different mindset, a one that's all about rest and recovery. It's different than the daytime. The day is do, act, execute, thinking, and Maybe at nighttime, you draw inspiration from some of the meditation world of thoughts come into the mind and then come back to the breath, say, tomorrow. If those are festering, those thoughts are festering, a great addition to your bedtime routine is writing down anything that's on your mind.

So powerful because sometimes it's the stupidest little things that keep us awake. The dry cleaning. Got to call mom. Take the dogs to the vet. There are things that you can only do sometimes during No work hours. Writing them down can then, I suggest, a stack of note cards because then that can also be your to-do list. Those things that were bothering you that you need to do, they're now on a piece of paper and you can cross those off when you wake up. Oh, that's great. You have a stack of little five by seven note cards. As you've got all those things that you'd normally ruminate about as you're laying in bed and you can't fall asleep, dump them in their little home, and then you don't have to hold space in your brain. Exactly. It's so powerful. Then you start to condition your brain to think, not now. Now's my time for sleep. One of the other levers that you say helps us sleep better is a consistent schedule. What if you've got young kids or you got a puppy that's waking you up or your work is inconsistent? How do you create consistent sleep if something is interrupting your ability to do it?

This is such a great question, and there are so many of these, right? Young kids, dogs at work. I would encourage you to look at your weekly schedule and find the time that you can protect for sleep.

That's going to be the time that your biological clock gets used to.

If you can get a little bit more time in the morning, an extra hour, go to bed a little bit earlier, an extra hour, wonderful. But if you can protect, say it's 12:00 to 6:00, if you can protect 11:00 to 5:00, be diligent about that. Then think about either end of that being things that you could move, but have maybe a time.

If you're a young mother listening, for instance, and you're Look, I'm working. I have kids. How do I follow this? Nine hours? Here's the thing. That is the goal. If you can get there, wonderful. But if you can't, give me seven. Take that first time that you have to be up. You've hit your target wake up-time that should be your alarm for every, ideally every day of the week. But again, life happens. We'll talk about how to catch up in a moment. But that's your target wake up-time. And then count back, maybe again, if it's only six that you can give me, count back six. And Even if you can't get enough sleep, if you can get consistent sleep, here's the dirty secret. You're going to do much better than someone that's getting enough sleep but keeping different schedules. Wait, what? Hold on a second. If I can get less sleep, but consistently, so I'm consistently getting five or six hours of sleep. I am going to do better than somebody who's getting eight or nine hours of sleep, but an inconsistent schedule. We are talking about situations where the person is really fundamentally not able to get enough sleep.

It's not what I recommend But if you're a shift worker, if you're a single mom with kids working two jobs, and you can't get eight hours of consistent sleep, if you can get five consistently or six consistently, I really want to move you towards six or seven for your health, your well-being, your ability to be around for those kids.

If it's caregiving, that's one of your challenges, and being diligent, how many hours can I give myself?

Because the closer to seven, the closer to eight, The longer you're going to be around, the better the quality of your heart, your brain, your productivity, your relationship, so many positive things when we can put sleep first. But if you're looking at a schedule that is tough, then yes, consistency is king. Why is consistency more important than the amount of time you're sleeping? It comes back to our circadian rhythm. Our body and our brain were not built as humans to keep different schedules. It didn't serve us from the standpoint of evolution. It served our ancestors from the standpoint standpoint of evolution to know when it would be alert. Then I could say, Okay, these animals are up at this time, and I can hunt for these animals and forge for these berries at this time.

Then I prepare my meal in the heat of the day.

It's so silly to compare, but it helps you understand just how important it is and how we're really built and takes a lot of time to change our physiology as a species. Our technology has really outpaced our biological rhythms, which are all about consistency and keeping our sleep times the same, powering down. These are things that we don't have hacks for. Well, and what I love is there are things that you can do. Basically, it makes sense because if you are a young mom or a shift worker or something's going on with your parents, and so you're in the middle of a period of your life where things are really inconsistent, that creates its own level of stress. Totally. Being worried about how much sleep you're going to get or this, that, and the other thing If you can focus on the five or six hours that you can pretty much guarantee, that lowers a little bit of stress because now you're focused on what you can control.

It makes a lot of sense. Totally. What if your partner has a different schedule or snores like crazy, or is just a human furnace and keeping you awake? Do you recommend that you sleep in a different room? This is such a good question. If you have a partner, sleep is a social behavior. It's It's funny to think of it that way, but it really is. What do you mean by that? You co-sleep, largely, if you're in a relationship. It's a social phenomenon. It's true. If your partner snores, it's going to probably interrupt the quality of your sleep. I would encourage you to think about, again, putting sleep at the center. Granted, I am biased. This is what I do for a living.

But when we can do that and really say critically, how can we optimize for sleep that will improve your relationship, improve your productivity at work, how you care for your children, so many positive things. Then you have to ask yourself, Am I creating lasting memories by sleeping together with my partner? This term is actually... This is termed as sleep divorce. What I'm about to talk about, sleeping separately. That's a terrible name. Which is so negative. Can we go with a better name? I couldn't agree more. I have some friends who are like, Look, it's a sleep marriage. It literally is how I'm able to stay in this marriage. That could be for a number of reasons. You should just have a sex bed and then a sleep bed. We We need to make this sexier in terms of the name of it. That's what people did in the Victorian era, right? Even earlier than that, and very wealthy individuals would always do that. I thought it was because they had mistresses, but I thought that's why they were not sleeping together.

That might A little bit of a fucker. You recommend that just- Ask yourself as a couple, how can we be the best possible couple that we can be?

How can we be the best parents, succeed in our careers, love each other?

You can do that with good sleep. If your sleep is interrupting each other's, maybe one's snoring, maybe one keeps a different schedule, one's a shift worker.

If you're able to sleep separately, why not? Again, doing away with this term sleep divorce, I think we should coin sleep marriage instead because, again, you're just not creating lasting memories when you're sleeping. Sometimes it's nice to cuddle, but you could do that and then slip into your separate bedroom where you're going to get the sleep that will support your personal waking success. Again, allow you to thrive in that relationship. Now, there are some people for whom that will be challenging. Maybe you don't have a guest room that you could oust your husband or your partner to go to. If that's the situation for you, think about the ways that you could buffer against that disruption that your partner imposes on your sleep. Like a pillow wall and earplugs? A pillow wall, earplugs. And earplugs that block against 60 decibels or higher, so it's just a specific type of earplug, and they have them at the drugstore, every drugstore.

White noise, they're widely available.

Look into one of these. It creates a background level of noise that then can dampen the impact of intermittent noise, which is often the challenge. It's someone getting up to an alarm clock or someone snoring. I'm going to try that. That's a good one. Absolutely. You know what? I want to take a quick break because I know you have so much more to teach us, to share with us. Let's pause here.

Let's hear a quick word from our sponsors. They allow me to bring you the extraordinary sleep scientist from Harvard, Dr. Rebecca Robbins. I know as you've been listening, there's somebody in your life that isn't getting the sleep that they need to get. So share this episode with them. Dr. Robbins and I are going to be waiting for you after a short break because she is only just getting started. We have so many more amazing tips and strategies to share with you when we return. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel, and you and I are here with the extraordinary Dr. Rebecca Robbins, the renowned sleep scientist and professor at Harvard Medical School. What is a circadian rhythm, Dr. Robbins? A circadian rhythm and refers to systems in the brain and in the body that operate and oscillate in an approximate 24-hour cycle. That's because we on Earth have a pattern of light and darkness that is 24 hours in duration. Over hundreds of thousands of years, we've adapted our internal biological mechanisms to that 24 hour day.

Sleep is one such rhythm. There are times during the day where we're awake and then times where we're asleep. Now, the reason this is beneficial is largely evolutionary in nature. When it's dark out, we can rest and recover. When it's light out, we can be operating at our peak, working, commuting, et cetera. Our physiology has adapted to life on Earth, and our internal systems are governed by this tiny little region of the brain called the suprachiasmatic nucleus. We call it the central pacemate maker of the circadian rhythm. That almost made me want to go supercalifragilistic, right? Yes, it's supercalifragilistic. It's supercalilistic nucleus. Okay. If you ever want to impress someone at a cocktail party, that sciencey term is the way to do it. How do we say it again? Suprachiasmatic nucleus. Say that 10 times fast. Superchiasmatic nucleus. Yes, bravo. Nailed it. That's the central pacemaker of this biological clock that we have inside us.

What's so interesting is virtually every part of the body operates in a circadian-like fashion, firing it sometimes and then relaxing and unwinding at other times, even down to the cellular level, believe it or not.

This system, this internal circuitry, is not meant to make quick changes. Hundreds of years ago, we weren't flying on airplanes all around the world. So understanding that that internal system, really, it's like I like to liken it to a big piece of machinery from World War I that just moves slowly. Really, when light changes in our environment, It's maybe a couple of seconds a day, not much more. But we fly in airplanes. We hop in airplanes and fly to new time zones and wonder why we just struggle with brain fog, with sleep. It's because there's a mismatch between our internal biological rhythms and the new pattern of light and darkness and social time. The clock on the wall when you land in London is, of course, going to be different than your internal biological clock. So understanding these principles can better set us up for success when it comes to our sleep. I have a couple of questions. This is fascinating, first of all. So thank you for breaking this down. One of the things that you also recommend is getting light in the morning. Why does this matter when it comes to your circadian rhythm and being a better sleeper?

That tiny brain region that we talked about where the circadian rhythm is housed is located right behind the eyeball in the brain.

The brain takes an information about the presence or absence of light through the eye. Then that travels along the optic to the superchiasmatic nucleus. There's really good names here. Optic chiasm, super, we're going to sound very serious. Whatever it is.

Very sexy field of study, Dr. Robbins. Light comes in through the eyes and triggers the superchiasmatic nucleus or the cognitive home for our circadian rhythm. Then that triggering allows for the secretion of melatonin when we're in the absence of light. We've all heard that term, and it's all over the shelves of every grocery store offering you the promise of good night's sleep.

But it also is a hormone that's secreted in the brain in this home of our circadian rhythm, the suprachiasmatic nucleus.

That hormone is secreted when we go out into a dark environment and we see the sunset and then the Process of melatonin secretion begins, and that allows us to then sleep. Then conversely, when we wake up, that internal circuitry gets a signal through the eyes that travels to that brain region that says, Oh, all right, melatonin, you're done? It's time to become alert alert and awake. Going outside to get some natural sunlight in the morning is really vitally important because that stops the floodgates of melatonin and triggers the brain to say, Oh, all right, we're in the awake phase of our circadian rhythm. What happens if you step outside and it's a cloudy or rainy day? No problem. Does this still work? No problem. Why does that work? Because it's amazing the power of sunlight in our environment. Even if it's a cloudy day, getting outside will get you the sunlight exposure that you need into your eyes to stop the floodgates of melatonin and begin your day. It's a myth that a cloudy day might hamper that or dampen that ability.

How long do I need to be outside? I've rolled out of bed, I've opened up the curtains, being inside and looking out the windows, not enough.

I got to step outside. I got to get the UVs in my eyeballs. But how long am I standing out there, Dr. Robinson? Great question. Now, I think it's so important. This is so aligned with your work, but meeting people where they are. I'm not saying we We all need to be out walking for an hour before we get to work, but find a way to fit it into your schedule and think carefully, where could I get a little bit more sunlight?

If that's okay, I get up, I make my coffee, I have to drive 45 minutes, and maybe you park your car farther away from your office building.

You walk for three minutes. Give me five minutes. Amazing. Or if you're commuting on the subway, try to extend another stop. Walk one more stop before you go underground. Walk to your coffee or park your car instead of doing the drive-through. I think these little microhabits can go so far. Well, I also think if you know that the reason why you're doing this is because you are using UV rays to manually reset the circadian rhythm in your body to go, Okay, we're starting to practice. The thing I'm doing right now when I wake up is helping my body do what it's designed to do, which is sleep.

What about for somebody that's listening who wakes up before the sun is even out? You are going to work or to school or you live in a part of the world where it's really dark out when you wake up, what can you do? Such a great question. There are more than 25 million Americans who work on shift schedules, so going to work and coming back from work at times that are mismatched with the patterns of light and darkness in our environment.

For all of the reasons that we just talked about, the importance of sunlight exposure, those individuals can really struggle. The good news is there are a lot of technologies that you can buy. Essentially, if you're an office employee outside the traditional 9:00 to 5:00, get one of these lights that ideally is blue daylight spectrum and sit in front of that light, turn it on high when you get to the office, because what you want to do is you want to trick your body into thinking that that's sunrise. If that's your work schedule, an early start, or conversely, if you're starting your day at 9:00 or 10:00 PM when it's dark. Because you're working an overnight shift. I've done that and you feel like a zombie.

Just to make sure, because I know people are going to be like, Okay, where do I go? Is this something you can literally buy at a retailer or go on Amazon and just Google Blue Daylight Spectrum light spectrum light, and you can purchase one? You don't need a prescription from a sleep researcher?

Essentially, these technologies are widely available. If you look for the lights that say, specifically, their Blue Daylight Spectrum, because we really want that light being strong enough to emulate the sun. It can be strong enough that it's actually a treatment for seasonal affective disorder because some of them are that potent. You sit in front of them and don't stare at it any more than you would the sun. But that can be a helpful part of adapting to a shift schedule.

Let's say the person listening is thinking, Oh, man, I don't have a consistent bedtime. I'm not looking at the UV. I'm all over the place. I got to get my circadian rhythm back in place. How do you shift or reset your circadian rhythm to a healthy 24-hour cycle? Really good question. I think one of the key questions to ask yourself is, where can I find some normalcy in my personal schedule?

If you're keeping what we call a yo-yo schedule, falling asleep at one time, one night, another time the next night, another time the next night, is that in your control? Is it maybe that just the hours fly and you're leaning in, maybe you're watching another episode on streaming, and then you got an Instagram alert, and then suddenly it's way past your bedtime and you're looking at a short sleep window. Really ask yourself, are you doing this? Is it in your control? If you're willing to try this out, what you could do, if you do have control over your schedule, look at your typical week. What is the earliest time that you have to wake up? Is it, say, 7:00 for an 08:00 AM meeting, and that allows you time to get ready and do your commute? And get your light exposure.

Yes, so let's make it 6:45.

Sun might not be up then unless it's summertime. But so pick that time, and that's your wake time. Ideally, that's your alarm clock seven days of the week. Because if If we sleep in, we really recommend no more than an hour, much more than that throws that internal circuitry out of whack. Wait a minute. If I sleep in on the weekend more than an hour, I'm throwing my circadian rhythm off.

That internal system. Much more than an hour.

We all know this. We just went through daylight saving time. That one hour is enough to throw all of us out of sync, right? Yeah. Much more than an hour is not recommended. If you look at your typical week and say, What is my earliest wake up-time? And then you've hit your target wake up-time for the week. Again, sleeping in an hour, absolutely fine, but much more than that, try to avoid. But then count back, give yourself a full nine hours because our biological need for sleep is individual. Some people do very well on seven, and some people do much better on nine. And it's in part, genetically hardwired. And so if you had two parents that were longer sleepers, you're truly sleeping eight or nine hours a night, you might be a longer sleeper. And then if you had two short sleeping parents, you might be lucky and really truly only need closer to seven. But if you count back nine, that could maybe add a little bit of time for your wind down routine. Those nine hours, count down, and that's your target fall asleep time. Or I should say, get ready for bed time.

Got it. I want to make sure that you hear this because this is the advice that as you're listening or watching us, somebody's going to be like, Okay, nine. But this is critical because you got to stop and think about what is the wake up-time that sets me up to be able to do some of the things that Dr. Robbins is going to tell us based on the research, makes us a better sleeper because we are learning that better sleep begins with what you do once you wake up. She's saying, once you know your wake up-time, and I'm going to do some math here because I think it's really important. Let's say it's just 6:00 AM. That's what you need, 6:00 AM. She says, Count back 9 hours. That means, where are we? 9:00 PM, right? That is the time that you now need to start the wind down routine based on research that will help you start to get the sleep that you need so that when you wake up, you feel refreshed, you aren't so tired, you got the benefit of sleep. I love what you're teaching us because this is within all of our power if we choose to follow it and we choose to try it.

We've talked about circadian rhythm, and consistency was a huge takeaway. We've talked also about how one of the big things that we need to do is get this light first thing in the morning light, or that blue spectrum light if you need to get it from a different source, if you're not getting outside. Can we talk more about light the rest of the day?

It's a really great question. Morning light exposure is helpful and good, but actually getting exposure all across the typical day is vitally important. Actually in the afternoon, it's just as important as the morning. I didn't mean to privilege the morning over the afternoon, but instead, getting exposure to fresh air and natural light over the course of the day is extremely important to help our body get information. Okay, we're still in the wake phase. It's not quite sleep yet. Then going into darkness is equally as important as exposure to light during the day because that absence of light does the converse. It allows for the secretion of melatonin for the brain to say, We're approaching bedtime. Let's start to power down. Unfortunately, many of us have bright blue light emitting devices all around us not only our light bulbs, but also the devices that we carry around with us, our smartphones, our tablets, our computer screens. Now, in a perfect world, we would be able to unplug, even, Give me 15 minutes before bedtime. Start small. If you find that you're a little bit addicted to your phone, it's hard to put it down, start with maybe five minutes.

If you could swipe to airplane mode, amazing. I think there's something also powerful about that to say, I'm off for the night. I might be receiving messages, but they can wait until the morning. And think about all day long, we do things for other people in our careers, in our personal lives, we care for children, we care for older adults, we spouses, we help and support people in the workplace. Another mindset is this is my time at night for me and really consciously purposefully turning your phone off. If you find yourself a little bit addicted to your phone, start small. Try just five minutes before you want to be falling asleep. Switch your phone off. Try to give yourself at least a little bit of a buffer, and then maybe work up to 15, maybe work up to 30 minutes. Now, if you're telling me, Look, I'm a student. I have work to do. I'm a busy professional. I have stuff I need to be doing up until the minute I fall asleep. I would implore you just to ask yourself, Is there anything off screens that I can do at night? Do all your screen work during the day.

If it's reading a couple of emails, even, and you can print them out, or reading a book, or anything that you can shift from your workday into non-screen time and do at night. I think there's even a way to meet even the busiest of people where they are. Dr.

Robbins, you're nice. I'm not going to be nice. I think that's a bunch of garbage that you have to be on your phone or on your laptop until you collapse into bed as if you're just going to collapse or fall asleep in bed with your laptop open because you don't have time between the stopping of work and the falling asleep. Complete and utter garbage.

I really agree with you.

For all of us, even, the most busy person. Honestly, if you can't put your phone on an airplane or stick it in the other room and give yourself five measly minutes, then don't be coming here and complaining about how tired you are. That's the thing that you have to understand is that the research is very clear and it's going to be very simple. I didn't say easy. It's going to be simple to put into your life, but you've got to want to get a night's sleep. You've got to want to stop waking up tired and exhausted. Really stop and think if this is you, that you're that addicted to work or that addicted to your phone, that you cannot carve out five minutes, you're never going to change this. I also am going to come back to the math because this is why it becomes really important to get very specific with yourself. If you're going to wake up at 6:00 and you're going to back up the nine hours like Dr. Robbins is telling you to do, and she's also saying, you got to have a buffer. You got to have a buffer from the last screen time to when you're going to start falling asleep.

Then maybe you need to put an alarm on your phone at 8:45 because that's the time you got to stop looking at the darn thing. Anyway, you're nice. I am not. I'm just like, you can't complain about something and expect it to change. You got to do something.

Totally. It comes back to this idea that good sleep actually does take a little bit of work. It's not going to come easy, but we get so frustrated when we're like, I'm here, I'm trying, I'm doing everything. Everything. But being really critical, I love your points about what really... Be honest with yourself, right? Do you really need to be on social media for 20 minutes before bed time? No. You don't.

You don't. Totally. That's the thing. I know we're all tired There's periods of your life where very real things going on that are beating you up. But I think for most of us, most of us need to have a moment of honesty with ourselves, that we are making ourselves exhausted. We are We're giving our attention and our brainpower over to the phone and social media and all of these screens, and we are not taking the wine down routine seriously. If you are serious about wanting to feel more energized, if you're serious about getting better sleep, you got to try what Dr. Robbins is telling you, and you're not going to like it because you're used to just going through the thing.

It's not sexy. I'm not here to say, drink a couple of glasses of wine and then spend some time on social media. But what really works when it comes to sleep is old-school stuff. It's getting off of our screens. It's powering down, making a cup of tea. I love the Swedish tradition of huga, this idea of warm, cozy time before bed. The Swedish culture has a word for this. I think as Americans, we think, I'm just going to write reports, I'm going to send emails until the moment that I want to be falling asleep. Then so many of us wonder why we struggle. But even just a couple of minutes, and then maybe build up to 10 minutes, and then maybe 15, and maybe 30 off of your phone or your screens, or your laptop before bedtime can do a world of good because all those devices are engaging the prefrontal cortex, the planning, the thinking part as a brain, and in many times, giving you exposure that mimics the sun right when you want to be falling asleep. It's this cocktail of sleep inhibitors, really, when you think about it.

Dr. Robbins, what I love about everything that you're teaching us today is we can do it. Every single human being listening can try these proven strategies. In fact, as you've been listening, you have that friend, I know I have that friend who is always complaining that they're tired. Send them Dr. Robbins. Let her empower your friend or your family member to do these simple things that will help them get a better night's sleep because that's going to change their life. That's how you can help them change their life. All righty, let's hear a quick word from our amazing sponsors. Don't you dare go anywhere because Dr. Robbins and I are going to be waiting for you after a short break with even more research about how to get a better night's sleep starting tonight. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel, and we are here with the amazing Dr. Rebecca Robbins from Harvard Medical School. She is a sleep scientist. Dr. Robbins, should we be watching TV before we go to bed?

Well, some people swear by an episode of Seinfeld or Friends, or some people listen to podcasts also, and that's part of their ritual. I will say, if it's not broken, don't fix it. If that works for you and you don't find that it really Being honest with yourself, it doesn't wake you up because some people will maybe fall asleep to that, but maybe they don't have a Timer on. Then when there's a louder part of the show, it'll wake them up, and then they'll go back to sleep, and people will say, Oh, no, it's fine. It's what I do every night. But what we really want to work towards is a night of uninterrupted sleep.

What happens if you get up in the middle of the night? I used to all the time. 214 was my number. 214 Mel Robbins. Up, got to go to the bathroom. What happens if you're up in the middle of the night I know I'm not supposed to look at my phone, but I would pick it up and I'd use it as a flashlight, and then I'd get to the toilet, Dr. Robbins, and I'd flip that sucker over. Next thing you know, I'm surfing social media or checking out text messages while I'm going in the bathroom in the middle of the night. What does that blue light exposure do when you look at your phone once you wake up?

Also the rote procedure of waking up, whether it's in the middle of the night, whether it's in the morning and reaching right for your phone. It's like an automatic response that we've conditioned ourselves to do. A couple of suggestions for that. Again, this comes back to the idea of these old-school tricks, but a night light in your hallway. Sensor-activated night lights, not only for your hallway, but maybe also they have them for the rim of your toilet, which is a little bit gross, but that allows you to, if you have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, get there.

Well, does it make it harder to fall asleep if you look at your phone when you wake up in the middle of the night?

The reason I bring up lights is that can guide you and reduce your reliance on your smartphone to get to where you need to go. When it comes to picking up the phone, though, maybe not for the flash light function, but just to maybe see if you got any messages. You're like, I'm up, I might as well be productive.

Or I'm bored or I can't fall asleep, so I'm just going to look at my phone, done all of these things.

Coming back to that idea of working towards consolidated sleep. When you get up the next time, if this is anyone listening, the next time, take it in stride. That's the first thing. Don't kick yourself because it's so easy to say, Oh, I'm up again, and then your cortisol spikes, and then it's harder for us to fall asleep. Take it in stride. Get up and say, Oh, do I need to use the bathroom? Go to the bathroom and then crawl back into bed. Resist looking at the phone. Okay. Crawl back into bed and try again. We'll go through a great bedtime routine, but every good routine will culminate with a couple final things. If it's prayer for you, if it's progressive muscle relaxation, clenching and releasing different muscle groups, if it's closing your eyes when you crawl into the sheets and focusing on one good thing from our day, I think that could be one small thing that we could all do and really benefit from. But focus on one small thing. Whatever it is, those final steps of the routine that get you to sleep, come back to those when you're awake in the middle of the night.

Crawl back into bed, do that last progressive muscle, muscle relaxation or gratitude exercise, and then try again. Close the eyes and slip off. If that voice, again, rears its ugly head of, Oh, not again. Not again. I'm up. That is when you get out of bed. When you get out of bed and this sounds antithetic. You're like, You're a sleep researcher. I'm in bed. Shouldn't I stay here? But wrong. If we stay in bed and we're tossing and turning, either at the beginning of our sleep episode or if we wake up and struggle to fall back asleep, We're starting to associate our bed with stress. It's one of the biggest myths people often will tell us on our surveys. Oh, if I stay in bed, I'll get some sleep. It's better, right? Then if I got out of bed, wrong, because we start to toss and turn, We start to increase the temperature of our bedroom environment, which is not good. Then we start to identify our bed as a place where we experience insomnia. We wake up at 2:14, and we start to tell ourselves these stories, and then they become a reality.

Because now you're training yourself that this is what I do at 2:14.

Exactly. You're classically conditioning yourself to look at your bed as a stressful place. You want to break that cycle. As soon as that voice comes on and says, Oh, not again. I'm up. That is when you want to condition yourself Instead to get out of bed, keep the light slow and go sit in a crisscross applesauce and do a meditation exercise, a breathing exercise on the floor or on an armchair. Read a couple of pages of a book, ideally with a lamp that has a a sleep-friendly light bulb. These are also widely available and not expensive. Install all sleep-friendly bulbs in your room. Get all of the fluorescence out of there. If you're really struggling, maybe read a couple of pages in a book or really do anything that's boring. It's going to put you back to sleep. Fold socks. I love to say. Your spouse will love you. Do all the boring house chores that you find to be soporific. Save that for when you have some insomnia-like symptoms and come back to those.

What would you say to somebody who thinks they're a bad sleeper?

Well, I think first, changing the narrative to yourself is the first step to say, I got this. I'm not a bad sleeper. No big deal. I'm struggling a little bit. It'll come back. We're going to talk about the tools to come to and really have in your toolkit when problems rear their ugly head because they do for all of us. People always come to me and they're like, Isn't your sleep perfect? I'm like, No, of course not. I'm a mom of two. I have a busy career, a relationship, so many things going on for all of us that can hinder our ability to get good quality sleep. Sleep. So number one, changing the narrative that you tell yourself. And then pulling on some of the levers of change that we're going to talk about. Try them all. Let me cut out caffeine and see if that helps. Let me cut out alcohol. Let me see if that helps. Let me move my dinner three hours earlier. Or, let me add a meditation technique or routine to my power down ritual. But trying all of these, the sweet and the constellation of healthy sleep strategies, that's the second step.

Now, if you've done all of that and really done it, Because some people are like, Oh, I've tried that. I've tried that. Yeah, sure. Oh, it didn't work. But really given it a shot, thought about a week and really gone ham on all of these strategies. If you're really still struggling, chronically struggling to fall asleep, I'm talking 20 or more minutes every single night, 30, 40 minutes to fall asleep, or if you're up every single night, can't fall back asleep, wired, or if you're practicing all the dictates of the healthy sleep strategies that we're going to talk about, and you're still like, I think I'm waking up. Those are sleep disorders. That's where the sleep strategies that we're going to talk about will not work, and you do need to seek medical attention before you can start to reap the benefits of some of these behavioral tips and strategies.

Terrific. That's super clear. One of the levers that you can pull based on the research, is also temperature. Temperature is something that can help you fall asleep. How is temperature related to getting better sleep?

Temperature is a really important consideration that's often overlooked. I think a lot of us think you want a warm and cozy environment for sleep, right? You want lots of blankets and you want to be warm and cozy. But if you find that you're waking up, maybe in a sweat or with the chills, that could be a sign that you personally are not in the right range for you. If you're in the menopausal period, you might need to be on the cooler side, even below the cooler range, like 65 or below, or maybe look into some products or things that you could have in your bedroom environment to purposefully cool you further because of some of the challenges there. Airflow is another great strategy in that life stage.

What does airflow mean?

Generally, during sleep at night, we want to have mattresses, pillows, things in our environment that are promoting airflow and temperature regulation. Anything that's going to be blocking airflow or not be breathable would then, of course, increase temperature.

I thought breathable meant you pick up the comforter and flap it like a wing to try to fan yourself. But I know exactly what you're talking about, that if it's a fabric that's blocking your ability to regulate your temperature.

A lower core body temperature is associated with sleep onset. That is ideal, especially to help us fall asleep. But over the course of our sleep at night, there are stages where we're not able to... Here's another fun science term, thermal regulate. In other words, shiver if we're cold or sweat if we're hot. Because of the fact that we'll be going out of different sleep stages, and in some of those stages, we're not able to regulate our temperature. You want to be in a range that's called thermal neutral. About 65 to 68 is generally that range where if you're in that stage where you're not able to engage in those shivering or sweating, you'll be fine because you're in the range where you can maintain an appropriate body temperature.

If you were to say, we're going to set the temperature in the bedroom to a certain temperature. What temperature do you want the person listening to set their bedroom temperature to tonight for optimal sleep?

Well, if you're able to, also think about what temperature it is outside. Right now in Boston, it's perfect to have your windows open if you're able to, because not everyone is in an environment that they're able to open their window. Maybe it's loud, maybe there are noises outside their window. But if you are able to open the window, what an amazing thing. You get fresh air, regulating your bedroom environment. Be mindful of the temperature outside. But if you're setting, you have central air, think about that range, 65 to 68. It's not that wide. Maybe start at 65. If you find yourself too cold, then maybe go up to 66 or 67 or 68. There is a lot of individual preference in that range. Also the bedroom environment and what you have on the bed specifically will matter. If you have a very light blanket, then you could maybe get by on the higher end of the spectrum. Or if you really like cozy blankets, then you might want to go down to 65.

Can you describe the perfect bedroom to get a better night's sleep?

I love talking about the bedroom because I think it's one place where we could all make small changes. You want to set yourself up for success in your bedroom. I want you really to walk in and feel instantly soothed. Ask yourself tonight when you walk into your bedroom, what in here is stressing me out? And remove it. If it's an alarm clock that you hate, if it's a pillow that you hate, get it out. I think sometimes upgrading the pillows, the mattress are really important. Sometimes people can't even tell me when they bought their mattress or their pillows, and these things do not last forever. So like you were saying, I loved your comments. You look forward, you snuggle into your sheets, and it's this amazing feeling. I want you listening to want that, that moment of slipping in and just loving your bed and feeling instantly relaxed and ready for sleep and looking forward to it. The design of a great bedroom has a couple other things. Again, we talked about temperature. Hopefully, you're in the 65 to 68 degree range. Dark is also vital. Our eyelids are some of the thinest pieces of skin on our bodies.

Even light from a cable box or Coming through a curtain from light outside your bedroom environment can be enough to disrupt your sleep, believe it or not. I want your bed pitch black. Walk in tonight after sunset, and you can put tape, masking tape or duct tape, over or any light sources. Sometimes cable boxes have little lights on them, chargers, anything that's a light emitting source, get that out of the bedroom, because then a pitch black environment will do you so much good and really set you up for success from the standpoint of melatonin secreting and all the things that are so necessary to help you fall asleep.

I love this. So tonight, when you walk into your bedroom or after you're done listening to this, walk into your bedroom, what is in there that's stressing you out? I can think about periods of my life where there piles of laundry in my bedroom and things that I needed to do. All of that stuff that wasn't finished would stress me out. So clear out anything. It's a reminder of your to-do list. Yeah, It's a reminder of your to-do list. Declutter your room. You want the temperature between 65 and 68. You want to have a pitch-black environment. To the extent it's within your reach, get a mattress that you love, invest in coziness in your sheets and in your bedding. Don't be embarrassed if you've had the same thing for a long time. Chris and I just replaced our mattress. We've been sleeping on it for 22 years, the same mattress, everybody. If you are in that camp, your friend Mel Robbins just got a new mattress.

I love that. The key thing is, is it not promoting airflow? Is it not supporting you? You're waking up with neck pain. Those can be signs that it might be time for a new mattress.

Let's talk about alcohol. How does alcohol impact your ability to sleep at night?

My students love to tell me this. They're like, You're wrong. I'll drink it. I'll put myself right to sleep. Yes, alcohol. There's some truth in that statement, though, what our young people will tell us, that alcohol will put you to sleep. It's great in reducing the term that we refer to sleep latency, which is the time it takes us to fall asleep. But what alcohol does is it starts to destroy the quality of for sleep. The idea that this is a good thing for sleep is completely wrong. It's one of our biggest myths about sleep, that alcohol, a nightcap, is a good thing. Depending on your body mass and your tolerance, one dose might be okay, but much more than that will start to virtually destroy the quality of your sleep. You've probably all been there.

When I drink, I always wake up in the middle of the night. I fall asleep quickly, but I do not stay It's not restorative.

You wake up, even if you spent eight or nine or 10 hours sleeping, you often feel like you haven't slept awake because the structure of our sleep starts to change, and it simply disrupts that architecture. It's very different than the structure of a natural sleep without alcohol. It's very common for someone to wake up after a night of even just maybe one or two glasses and not feeling restored.

Well, I think, universally speaking, when somebody does either dry January or they stop drinking or they go for periods of time where they don't drink, better sleep is 100% what people talk about.

Absolutely. It's amazing when we think about taking someone who drinks every night and then they are like, wow, they do dry January, and it's this light bulb. Finding ways to extend those benefits into our calendar year. Even if it's Monday through Wednesday, you're going to be dry. I think sometimes those very clear boundaries are so helpful because after a long day, it is so easy to say, I earned it. I had a long night with the kids, a long day with the kids, or this colleague at work, or this deadline is stressing me out. I earned it. But If you have structures in place to say, Oh, no, and make it fun, substitute a fun cup of tea ritual with your partner.

I think what you're here teaching us is what you've earned is a great night's sleep. Giving yourself The gift of better sleep is going to be a better reward than the glass of wine that numbs you out. Speaking of drinking, let's talk about the impact of caffeine on sleep, and specifically coffee. But I'm also thinking about all of these energy drinks that people drink and the pre-workout stuff that's just pumped full of caffeine. How does caffeine impact sleep quality?

Caffeine, like a drug, can stay in our system and it has what we call a for six up to nine hours, depending on your metabolism and how you metabolize personally caffeine. There are some genetic differences, but by and large, caffeine is a significant disruptor of our sleep. As a society, it's the number one most widely consumed drug in the world. Look, I love coffee. I love the smell. I find this to be such a struggle to cut off. But really ask yourself, and is one of your struggles a busy mind? Heart racing before bed, can't calm down, then you might be a good candidate to maybe have one fewer cup a day. If you go for a walk and get a coffee in the afternoon, try for an herbal tea instead. Make one substitute and see how you feel. Or maybe some people swear by no coffee after lunch. Maybe you have one nice medium or try not to have the huge cups at some of the fast food chains that are just enormous. I think much more than even the FDA recommends, which is about 200 milligrams of caffeine. That's in really a size small at most coffee places.

Just be mindful of not only the timing, but how much you're consuming, because each additional dose can extend that half-life even further. Say you have a medium-sized Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts in the morning, and you drink that, and then you go for one more in the afternoon. Then you've doubled the half-life. It's not only the six hours from the first cup, but then that caffeine might be lingering in your system come seven, eight, nine o'clock.

What time should you stop drinking caffeine? Let's say that your wine down routine is going to begin at 9:00 PM. What time should you stop drinking caffeine so it's out of your system and not impacting your sleep?

Well, be mindful of it. If you're drinking coffee and it's not too much and you don't have a problem with this, not really a problem. But if you find your heart racing, your mind racing, you're really struggling to fall asleep, caffeine is often one of the culprits. I'd say take a day where you maybe cut it out or maybe try decaf and try that for a day. See if you can last, because I think sometimes we get so devoted to our coffee. But try that and then see how your sleep is that next night. Then maybe add one more coffee back in in the morning and see how you do. If you have no issues when bedtime rolls around the next night, keep that up. Then maybe you just keep that one cup a day, or maybe you add one more and see if it has any negative impacts on your sleep. But again, I'm a big fan of very clear cut offs. No No coffee after lunch.

No coffee after lunch.

It's hard because I personally love coffee, but that's a big one for me because if it were up to me, I'd be drinking it all day. I just love the smell. But really, I think behavior can become so mindless. Really having these cut offs that we can adhere to instead of an abstract, Oh, I'll stop in the afternoon. And suddenly it's three, four o'clock in the afternoon, and any coffee at that time will likely be in your system around bedtime.

Another factor in sleep is food. At what time should we stop eating before we go to bed? If we're going to, again, start the wine down, we're just going to say nine o'clock to make the math easy, when should you stop eating?

Well, the old adage from the nutrition literature of a breakfast of Kings, a lunch of Princes, and a dinner of Poppers is actually really good for our sleep. The research shows in diets that control for the amount of calories that you're eating, you actually lose weight if you are doing this breakfast of of King's, Lunch of Princes, dinner of Poppers. It's good for your weight management ability, but it's also good for your sleep. We don't run the risk of our body digesting food as we go to bed if we keep dinner on the lighter side. There's also the intermittent fasting literature, and it really came out of a circadian rhythms laboratory, which is so interesting. But the whole idea there, and some studies have shown different findings, but basically, listen to your body. If you're open to this, you might try it. If you find that dinner just keeps nudging later. And suddenly it's 9:00, 10:00 PM, you haven't eaten, your bedtime is in another hour, you might be a good candidate for this. Again, just a clear cut off of like, Is it 8:00 PM? I want to be done eating. So then that means, I'm I'm eating dinner at 7:00, whether that's at the office, whether that's with my spouse.

And so many people tell me, But my meal with my spouse is the only time that we have to be together. And I always respond to that. You don't have to be together over food. And so It's looking forward to your date on Friday or Saturday night or your weekends where you have a little bit more flexibility to really make a meal together, really enjoy it, really be present with each other. But then maybe during the work week when you have a later time that you're getting home, and then maybe your spouse is getting home late, too, and then suddenly it's way into the evening hours and you're trying to desperately do something together. But maybe find another ritual. I know it's lame, but maybe you make a cup of tea together and you're playing a card game. What I was just going to say, my husband and I play cribbage, and we also are crazy into we're really radical puzzles.

We have a jigsaw puzzle on the dining table and we sit around. But if there were a rule of thumb, because I've noticed one thing that's made a difference for Chris and our son who's in high school is we were getting out of the habit of eating early, and all of a sudden dinner's at seven, then it's at eight, and it's creeping right up on bedtime, which for me is winding down around nine o'clock. I pushed dinner to 5:30 because otherwise, our son was coming home from sports practices and eating half the refrigerator. By the time dinner was cooked, he's already fed himself dinner. But I've noticed it's made a big difference with my sleep and my bedtime routine to be done eating several hours before I am going to bed. I love it. And so if it helps knowing that you should stop eating two hours before you go to bed.

I love that routine. It sounds like doing maybe intermittent fasting without even knowing it because you've buffered, you've added about 3 or 4 hours before you're falling asleep and you're done eating. And so that's time that you're just, you're fasting. Actually, you're extending the fast that we naturally do over the course of our sleep. There are so many benefits to fasting. Just giving our digestive system a break is really the whole idea behind intermittent fasting. If you can find a time, if it's 5:30, if it's 6:00, and really try to be diligent. If your son is on a bus to sports practice or driving, he has a meal that you made for him or you cooked, and he's eating it at the sports field before he goes on, or a smoothie. I'm a big fan of smoothies, actually, for dinner. I know Everyone drinks them for breakfast. But if you're busy, getting some good calories in, it's light, it's likely to not disrupt your sleep at night, can be amazing for someone who's busy, strapped for time, et cetera. But it comes back to this idea of good sleep takes planning.

I'm curious, Dr. Robbins, can you just walk us through the day in terms of you wake up when the alarm rings, and then what are all the little things that you want us to do at what time that help you stack up these habits that lead to a great night's sleep?

It's a great question. And think about you listening, how you can fit these into your life, because of course, there's the best case scenario, and then there's real life, right? But But I think that there's a lot of opportunity to meet all of us where we are with some of these recommendations. So the question for you becomes, how can I implement these things? But one thing we know is good, blue light as much as you can over the course of the day. So whether that's walking an extra subway stop or walking to your office building, parking your car a little bit further away, getting as much light exposure as you can in the morning, getting a healthy, hardy breakfast. The research shows that a heavy, hardy breakfast is great because we're getting the calories that we'll need to fuel our waking success and then keeping dinner on the lighter side. Then over the course of the day, a hardy lunch and then limiting caffeine consumption over the course of the day. Then a little bit more light exposure would be wonderful. I'm always getting questions, what's the cure for the afternoon slump? And truly, we all have it.

It's just a time where we've maybe been up for a long period of time at that point. We have a little dip in our core body temperature in the afternoon, all of us, and then coupled with maybe a heavy lunch, then you can really, it's the perfect storm sometimes for sleep. If you're like, How do I... What's the drink? What do I do? I always laugh that the one best evidence-based cure is for sleepiness is sleep. If you're exhausted, take a nap. If you're a healthy sleeper, that can be part of a healthy sleep routine. The one exception, if you are struggling with your sleep, insomnia symptoms that we talked about, you're really struggling, the self-talk of a bad sleeper, coupled with a lot of anxiety about sleep, do not nap, because we want to build your sleep pressure so that you can really set yourself up for sleep come bedtime. But if you're feeling sleepy in the afternoon, why not? Maybe you're home, you work from home, wonderful. Crawl into your bed and close your eyes for maybe 5, 10 minutes is actually... We don't need a lot of time when it comes to napping to actually get a lot of benefits.

Then in the afternoon, again, getting some natural light exposure and then slipping into the evening mode and being thoughtful about different mindsets, slowing down our breath as we approach bedtime. Ideally, dinner has been on the earlier side. A later dinner isn't ideal for sleep. If it's two hours of a buffer between the last time that you're eating and your bedtime, perfect. If you could give me three, I'd love it. Then maybe a little evening work if you need to, because look, some of us, that's a reality. There is one suggestion. There's a computer a program called Flux. Flux is a software you can download to your computer, and it changes the color temperature of your screen to be warmer. If you have to be working on your computer as you approach bedtime, look into that tool. It'll change automatically. It's wonderful. But then you switch into your bedtime routine and your ritual that helps you fall asleep. Then you crawl into the sheets and- You sleep off. Yes, but realize it's not going to happen every night. The hope is, after you've heard all of our conversation today, that you have the tools, if you're motivated, if you have the time in your life.

And not everyone does, because we go through peaks and valleys of careers exploding and Lots of deadlines or personal obligations, caring for a loved one, caring for children, older adults, and realizing that maybe you're in a life stage where you can't implement these things, and that's okay. But when you're able to, give them a shot, what do you have to lose?

Well, you can implement some. Absolutely. Because no matter what's going on in your life, you can create a buffer with your phone. You can stop the alcohol, you can quit drinking caffeine at lunchtime, you can get your butt outside and get natural light in your eyeballs in the morning and throughout the day. You can create a small ritual. The consistency may be something that is a little difficult to create based on your schedule, but I actually don't think that these things are out of reach. I think we've gotten used to complaining about being tired. What you're offering are research-back solutions that are within everybody's reach. It is my hope that as you've been listening today to Dr. Robbins, that you're going, Well, I could try that. I could try that. My sleep is important. One thing that I keep thinking about is I love how you have changed the story of what's happening at night from, Okay, I got to get to sleep. I got to get to I need to put down my phone, to, No, I'm taking the time back. This is my time. I gave my day to everybody else. I gave my attention to the phone and social media.

This is where I get to reclaim my time and I get to do a little something for myself. Dr. Robbins, if you could speak directly to the person listening. If there is one action that you hope that the person listening takes, what's the most important thing to walk away from this conversation and do?

I think the single thing is routines and rituals. We've applied that to a lot of different aspects of our days, of the time leading up to sleep, the wind down ritual before bedtime, trying to work towards a bedtime routine, finding some normalcy in terms of your... Or building some routine around your target fall asleep time, being more mindful of that time, and then your wake up-time Because we're really meant as human beings to operate that way. Building them in and starting small with maybe a bedtime routine, a couple of wind down rituals, turning off the phone, thinking about some of these breathing exercises, and then maybe adding in the consistency of bedtimes and waketimes and really being diligent about that and also realizing how you feel and realizing that it doesn't have to be a struggle. If you're ready and motivated, these things, you hit the nail on the head, Mel. They're free and they're available tonight, if you're willing.

I love that free and available tonight. Dr. Robbins, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

In case no one else tells you, I want to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And because I love you, I'm going to tell you something. I want you to do what Dr. Robbins is telling you to do. I don't want to hear the excuses. I want you to try it because your sleep matters, your energy matters, your health matters, your focus matters. And these are all things that you can try implement. Try it for seven days. Let me know how much better you're feeling. Make sure you share this with somebody that you love because you heard it, two-thirds of adults are not getting the sleep and the rest that they need. And now you know, based on the clinical studies and the research that we discussed today, there are simple things that you can do that you need to start doing, so take it seriously. All right? I'll talk to you in a few days.

Okay.

Tonight, we're getting sleep.

Tonight, we're sleeping.

I love that. I even love your voice. It's like very soothing. We need a sleep after you talk us to sleep, Dr. Robbins.

Mel, I feel like we could do some cool stuff together. I know we can. More. It's the start of something.

I would say so. Yes, it is. And you said that tonight. Starting tonight is when you said that at the end. I was like, Oh, my God, I love you. Oh, my God. That's what you're pulling up top, right? The second she said that, I would have been like, ding, ding, ding, ding, Oh, and one more thing. No, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

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