We're going to King's Landing.

To what end?

Killing Veigar? I cannot face that hoary old pitch alone with my dragon and yours. Together we can kill Veigar in her rider. Make it a son for a son.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Welcome back to podcast House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion.

And I am Greta Johnson. Jason. Holy cats, we are back. House of the dragon season two is here.

It is good to be back, but also horrible and terrible to be back.

Yes, extreme same. Fortunately, later on in this episode, we have the wonderful chance to get to talk it all out with not one, but two members of team green together. Olivia Cook, who plays Dowager Queen Alicent, and Fia Saban, who plays her daughter, Queen Helena.

But first, we're going to unpack that intense season two premiere titled a Son for a Son, which was written by our dear friend, the fop friend of the pod, showrunner Ryan Condal, and was directed by Alan Taylor. Now be warned, if you have not seen the debut episode of season two of House of the dragon, we're gonna be talking about everything that happens therein. So stop now. Watch it. Come back.

Should we get into it? Should we do like a quickie recap and then really dig in?

Sure, let's do it. We open with a new intro animation that is quite fascinating. And then we go to the north, where Jasaris is treating with Lord Cregan Stark. Lord Cregan agrees to send some old guys to help Queen Rhaenyra, but their meeting is broken up by the arrival of a raven, which brings the news of Prince lucerys death on dragonstone. Rhaenys has been patrolling the gullet, and the black fleet has been very busy shutting down trade going to King's Landing. Daemon wants Rhaenys to do more, though he wants to fly his dragon to King's Landing to fight veigar. In King's Landing, King Aegon meets with his small council, and he is eager to get the war going, as is his brother Prince Aemond. But Otto and Alison say no, let's let diplomacy take its course. Let's slow our role. Later we learn that Kristen Cole has been having brunch, which is a euphemism we will use with Queen Alicent. Aegon gets to work hearing petitions from the small folk. Jace returns with news from the north, and then Rhaenyra tells her council, I want Aemond Targaryen. Daemon takes that direction and runs with it.

He hires some assassins to sneak into the castle to kill Aemond and the result is shattering, heartbreaking, almost too terrible to talk about. The assassins, blood and cheese sneak into the castle. They don't locate Aemond, but they do locate the king's children, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Jaehaera. They are twins and very difficult to tell apart, so they force Queen Helaena to tell them which one is the sun. She does, fleeing with Princess Jaehaera as blood and cheese decapitate Prince Jaehaerys.

Okay, so, jason, obviously we're gonna dive in pretty hard, but first of all, I would love to hear, just, like, your initial reactions to this season two premiere. It was a hell of an episode.

Yeah. Oh, man. Just excitement tinged with a significant amount of dread and sadness, because, as we saw in this episode, it is going to get ruthless, violent, and we're going to lose people. And I'm kind of dreading it, even though I'm very excited for it. What were your thoughts?

I think season one did a really good job of illustrating how difficult it is to be a mother in this world. And I think what this episode did really beautifully was kind of build on that and talk about the specific difficulty of being both queen and mother. Right. Because you have Rhaenyra searching for her son, and then, of course, you have Helena making this horrific choice at the end of the episode, too. And the way that those two roles conflict, I think, was really very heartbreaking and touching, really, throughout the episode.

Let's start with the new intro animation, which I loved. Wonderful.

Gorgeous.

Greta, what do you think of the fact that we are switching styles in the opening credits? We've gone from these gears and these metal gears to textiles.

Well, as a fiber artist myself, Jason, I have been a knitter for, like, 20 years. I think it's all beautiful. And I know you can actually identify the historical scenes that are happening, but even just from a pure artistic point of view, they're gorgeous, you know?

Yeah, it's really cool. This opening reminds me of the bayou tapestry, the huge and historic embroidered tapestry from the 11th century that chronicles the norman conquest of England, 1066. I picked out a lot of cool stuff in there. It seems like there's a lot of valyrian history going back to the necromancers, the doom. You see Aegon's conquest. You see the burning of Harrenhal. You see torrent Stark, who is mentioned in this episode, the king who knelt. You see Maegor the cruel dying on the throne. You see the great council of 101, which we saw at the beginning of season one. And then you see the black first green divide. Then we go to the north. Our first view of the north, Greta.

This opening was a huge nod to Thrones fans. I thought, these are new sets. This is all new stuff happening. But it still feels so familiar, doesn't it?

It really did.

Even the whole, like, winter is coming, right? Like, it's there. It's happening. I thought that was a really nice way, especially given the pause we had between season one and season two of like, oh, yeah, no, we're in familiar territory. This feels good. I also thought just that initial narration was really great. Let's take a listen to it.

The north owes a great duty to the Seven Kingdoms, one older than any oath. Since the days of the first men, we have stood as guardians against the cold and the dark. Through its long tradition, the Night's Watch cultivated its strength from doomed men who had their life as their only possession. But my ancestor, Torrhen Stark, began a tradition by making an offering. At the onset of winter, one in ten men from our household was to be chosen to fortify the watch. This is not a sentence, but an honor.

Winter is coming, and it's actually coming. You saw that at the end of season one with the kind of gray skies. You hear numerous characters throughout this episode talk about the fact that it's late summer, and I thought they did an amazing job taking you into the culture of the north with winter coming. So Jace is there as an emissary of his mother's regime. He gets a promise from Lord Cregan Stark, the young warden of the north. It is tradition in the north, as winter approaches, that any older warriors would be looking for a place to go to fight, with the expectation that they would not come back. So I think when Cregan promises the couple thousand graybeards to Jace, it's not a lot of men, but it's a powerful gesture, because those men are gonna fight fiercely without any expectation that they would go home.

That's really intense.

Yeah, a fascinating. I thought, too. So, in the books, Cregan had a younger brother that died, and I was struck by his kind of resemblance to Jace and the fact that they're the same age, that I think that Jace and Cregan, who are young, who are just learning to wield power, who are kind of the same age, and who.

Are missing brothers now, they're also both so honor bound. You know, you can just. That they both are devoted to family and duty and honor and all of those things. So I think that also binds them pretty strongly already, you know, really interesting.

Tidbit too, to learn that King Jaehaerys and good Queen Alysanne, who were really important to the development of the watch, Queen Alysanne urged her husband to give the watch more land with which they could support themselves. That during their visit, their dragons were too scared to cross over, which is.

I loved that.

Fascinating.

I thought so too. Yeah, that was a really good moment.

We go to Dragonstone, where Rhaenys is patrolling the gullet. The valyrian fleet is blockading the capital, and that's taking its toll. But of course, Daemon is eager for more. But where's the queen? Queen Rhaenyra is nowhere to be found.

She has been gone for days. Too long. She is exposed.

She is grieving.

The mother grieves as the queen shirks her duties.

We can surmise that it's been a week, a few days, a couple weeks at most since the death of lucerys. But overall, such a through line of sadness, starting with the raven bearing these very, very sad tidings. And then, of course, just the grief that is weighing down on Rhaenyra, who, it seems, has been since she got the news, endlessly searching for Luke's body.

Right. And Rhaenys is like, well, she needs to get some closure on this situation before she can do what she needs to do, which is also just devastating.

I loved Rhaenys's high handed treatment of daemon, and also her empathy for Rhaenyra. Daemon has lost people. Lost his wife, of course, but you never get the feeling that he's sad about it. Lost his brother, King Viserys, which must have affected him deeply. But he. Do you get a sense of how daemon carries grief?

That's such a great question at all. He also lost a wife by murder. So, like, I don't know who did that.

Crazy. Did they ever catch that guy?

I don't think they did. He was wearing a cloak, I remember.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I don't know. It's a great question. How does Damon process his feelings? I would love to get Matt Smith on the show to ask him about it.

Yeah. Just a devastating moment when Rhaenyra finally.

Oh, my God.

Finds proof that lucerys has died.

She essentially, you know, has just confirmed that her son has died. And then she goes back to her small council with a very clear mission.

Your counsel stands at the ready. Your Grace. I will fly to Harrenhal at your command and set our toehold in the riverlands.

Your grace. My lord. Husband's blockade of the gullet moves into place all seaborne travel and trade to King's Landing will soon be cut off.

I want Aemond Targaryen.

Such an intense moment. That is Rhaenyra's only sentence that she says in the entire episode right there.

Is it strategy or is it vengeance? I think we have to ask the question of Rhaenyra. Right. And her mind state. And I think she's been given a couple of important strategic updates with which to make decisions. And her decision is just kind of an open ended kill. Aemond.

Yep.

What do you do? It's very natural, of course, that she should feel this way. But thinking about where this particular instruction leads, I'm not sure. Rhaenyra. I think she needs more time, sadly.

Yeah, that does seem one where it's like, take a minute, let's talk about it more later. And here are the things we can do in the meantime.

So let's switch over to King's Landing to see where team Green began the episode. We get our first look at King Aegon as the guy in the big chair here. I was a little impressed.

Same. I was alarmed to be impressed. Yeah. I mean, it's a very, very low bar, but it's super low. There's a scene with him and Helena where he's looking for his son and he seems so chipper, which even that surprised me, given he was very resistant to take the throne not that long ago. But yeah, he seems like he's actually stepping up in a way that I was not expecting at all.

Now he doesn't know where Jaehaerys goes to school.

Fair point. What does my child do during the day? He did know when Jaehaerys wanted a pony ride, though.

Yeah. And he did seem like a kind of a doting father. In his way.

In his way.

Which, again, I was a little impressed. What did you think about Aegon pulling Prince Jaehaerys out of school to come to the small council chamber? I thought it reflected actually rather positively on Aegon.

It's a good question.

I don't know.

I'm a little more conflicted about it. Shouldn't he just be in school? Can he really contribute much in the small council? I know pony rides are fun, but, like, is that really the best place for him at this point? As the heir to the throne?

I reacted to Aegon taking the prince to the small council chapel, and even his nearly allowing the prince to ride lord Tyland Lannister like a pony. I saw that as a reflection of how he wishes his parents had treated him, had brought him into things. You know, like, I suppose they had always been telling him, you're gonna be king one day. Most of them, I was gonna say.

Have they been telling him?

Some of them, not all of them. But I saw this as a reflection of. I wish that I had been brought into councils early and introduced to these things in a different way, rather than treated in the way that he was, which is kind of ignored by his dad, to be honest.

Yeah. Viserys definitely was not offering up pony rides.

Not at all.

I think it did show also an element of, to your point, how much Aegon loves this kid and how much he wants him involved.

Yeah. You know, I think Aegon, he's like, not the smartest guy, and obviously we've seen him be awful, but I think he weirdly has a good read on people. And Thailand is such a pleaser, such an obsequious person, that I think that Aegon is off put by that. And it triggered something of the cruel streak in him that when you see somebody who is so serving and spineless, well, let's see if you'll let my child ride you like a pony around the small council chamber. I thought that was an interesting character moment for Aegon. And then there was the way he handled Otto during the scene with the petitioners on Iron Throne. Let's play that clip.

Iron costs have grown. A lone scorpion takes weeks to build. To put it simply, we are struggling. If we could but have the crown's coin before we started work, it would bring great relief, not just to me, but to all the smiths serving your cause. You shall be paid, and paid well. My army cannot win a war without your weapons. You should continue their making. Our victory depends on the efforts of the small folk.

Aegon, in the way he is addressing Hugh the hammer, underlines the fact that Hugh and the people like him, who are toiling for the benefit of the realm, to arm them and other things to feed the realm. Work is important and must be supported. And when Otto hears Aegon say this, he turns on his heel. He was about to walk up to the throne and say, listen, rising iron prices are a thing, but we cant be cutting discounts to everybody that just walks in here. And when Aegon underlines that fact, like we need to support the small folk who are supporting us, Otto turns around and I thought that was, that was a big moment for Aegon and the realm.

Yes. I also really liked that, because I think in season one, we got a lot of conversation about the realm, but we didn't actually meet that many small folk. And I think it's really interesting to notice that even just in this episode alone, we have met a number of new characters who are professional people, hugh the hammer or sheepherders or whatever it is, who are trying to make things work, and also, to your point, trying to support the realm as well.

Fascinating moment after this when Laris pulls the king aside.

Weird.

I think it felt a little inappropriate, but pulled the king aside. I want to talk to you. And then immediately starts in with, well, Otto was your dad's hand. Don't you want to forge your own path? I thought this was a little early for this kind of strong suggestion on such a huge decision early in his reign. But Aegon, I think, is considering it, is amenable to maybe a move like this. What were your thoughts about this?

It was earlier in this episode, right, where Laris tries to talk to Alicent.

Right. He says, I tried to reach you, but you were having brunch.

You were occupied with brunch. I think partly from Laris Point of view, it's clear that he doesn't have the brunch time with Alicent that he's used to, and so he's trying to angle. And, of course, at this point, also, there's the argument of, like, Alicent has lost some power.

Yes.

It's pretty clear that she doesn't have as much of a hold on Aegon as she or Otto would like. So then, you know, I think it is audacious, but I think it also totally makes sense that Laris would try to suck up to him and be like, hey, you want me on your team? Cause I'm happy to help out, you know?

Yeah. I would imagine that Blair is here, is angling either for himself or for someone that he can read easily to be the next hand.

Yeah.

What did you think of Alison and Otto's relationship? I think that, you know, obviously, season one, she was very, very clearly not even. You couldn't even call it a junior partner. She was. She was her as a piece. She was merely a piece. But they've come to something like a partnership. Now. What did you think of that?

You know, there's that moment where Otto's like, it's going to have to be violent, and Alicent is like, yeah, but how violent? Like, I still wonder if there is still a divergence. And, like, Otto is probably much more willing to be ruthless in a way that Alicent is not. But the fact that they're having that conversation at all, I think is a really good sign, because to your point, I'm not sure that he would have even respected her enough to try and talk to her about it last season.

I thought that was a huge moment. Totally.

The fact that she could call him out at all, I think, is monumentous, for sure.

Speaking of Allison, Allison and Kristen Cole, what do you think? I'm happy for him.

Am I happy for them? What I will say is that Alicent got a lot of action in this episode.

Good for her.

And it seems like she actually enjoyed it, which is a shift for her. In her previous. You know, we've seen her having some other brunches that seemed deeply unpleasant.

Completely agree.

I think she should get hers for sure. Did you also, initially, with that scene, find yourself asking, who's down there?

I did. I was like, oh, no, not Laris.

Laris isn't gonna do that.

Not Laris. I'm happy for them. I love that Alison's like, we can't.

This is never happening again.

Yeah, not again. We cannot do this again. Which raises the question of, is this the first time that such a thing has happened?

Or.

Clearly this is early in whatever this is, this situationship.

This situationship. So, yeah, I have another question about that, which is. Is that shocking, though? Kristen and Alicent.

I was shocked. This is not in the source material.

Oh, really? That's exciting. I love when that happens.

It really affects, obviously, events going forward, the power structure in the realm. I think it was also, overall, the episode was about Alicent taking control of her body. She dismisses her handmaidens, who are scrubbing her and rushing. She's like, no, get out of here. I will do this myself. And then even in ending the brunch by saying, we can't do this again, it's her that is driving this.

Yeah.

And perhaps her who drove the dalliance we see at the end of the episode. So I thought, I was really impressed with Alicent in this episode, and I think that if there is hope for peace at all in the realm, I think it lies almost completely with her.

The river lords will either declare for me, or they will meet Veigar and sunfire together. And we can burn the blockade while we're at it.

Rhaenyra has dragons as well.

Mine are bigger.

If we loose the dragons to war, there'll be no calling them back. We must proceed cautiously.

Fat old Lord Tully will either raise my banner or see his burn. We should fly to Riverrun. You are the king, your grace. You must not put yourself at risk.

And Veigar is needed here. To deter Rhaenyra from attacking in retribution for the death of her son.

A lot of interesting things. There is kind of an interesting acknowledgement that if you let the dragons go fight, they will take over, and they will have a mind of their own in those affairs.

I thought that was interesting, too. I also thought it was interesting to just hear through the argument of, like, well, ours are bigger, but also, that could even be more catastrophic. Right? To what you're saying.

Yeah. And it's the kind of double edged sword of having dragons, obviously extremely powerful. The problem being the king has to ride one of them, and then the king's brother. And those are two of the most valuable people in this, and you can't lose them. So how can you even commit a dragon? And I think that is going to be part, you know, we're going to. Those kind of decisions are going to be very perilous going forward. Fat old Lord Tully, those are King Aegon's words, not mine, is Lord Grover Tully, whose grandchildren and heirs are named Oscar, Elmo and Kermit.

Thanks, George. Rr Martin.

Yes, I absolutely love to see it. But clearly, I think from this war council and from Rhaenyras, it's about to get hot in the Riverlands quite soon.

Yes, they're all talking about the Riverlands. I also think it is interesting that in both cases, there are a lot of people surrounding the main person in power who want to talk strategy. But when it comes to the main person in power, it's a lot more about like, okay, but let's just go wild, you know, like, they're both being talked. Well, I guess nobody really tried to talk Rhaenyra down, but there was kind of a similar, like, here are all the things we could do. And then either Aegon or Rhaenyra are like. Or we could just ruin it all.

It's a great point, because, I mean, I found myself pulling for Otto in this scene against all expectation, because he's the one right now who's saying, okay, maybe this has gone too far. I'm sending letters. I'm in contact with a lot of people. We have to wait for the letters to come back. Patience, restraints. Calm down right now and we are in, like, just let events happen and we will win.

Errors were made in the hours following King Viserys death. We mustnt compound them. Youve already demonstrated your might, your grace. We must now favor patience and restraint. I send ravens by the hour. Many and more houses will declare for you in time, history and precedent will come to your side.

And I found myself being like, yeah, I hope they listen to Otto, who, by the way, caused all of this.

Right. Of course.

Let's talk about the war parties in both team green and team black. Like, obviously, I think Team Black, it is Damon himself that is pushing for the very aggressive strategies and, in fact, masterminds based off of Rhaenyra's instruction. Get Aemond. One of the most ruthless events that we've seen in this world in House of the dragon in Game of Thrones. What follows from that is awful. And then on the team green side, I was really interested to see Kristen Cole and Amund the way those two one find themselves kind of on the outside of things and have clearly formed a little bit of a partnership of their own in terms of finding sounding boards for which they can voice their frustrations with how things are going. I thought that was. That has the potential to be a very, very powerful duo.

Yeah. One thing I really enjoyed about this episode in general is that, you know, and Ryan Condal talks about this, too. Like, the world has expanded in this season. You're already seeing it, and that means we're getting more characters, but we're also getting just new character combinations that we hadn't had in season one, which is fun, and that could mean brunches. But it is also Kristen Cole and Amond talking or Laris talking to Aegon. There are a lot of just conversations between characters that we haven't seen before. I like that the deck is kind of getting shuffled up. It's interesting.

I love that as well. It's just interesting to see Aemon's reaction to basically being the person that is being blamed in King's landing for how the war is going. It's very clear. Like, everybody, yes, everybody kind of openly acknowledges, hey, Eamond blew that one. And now we find ourselves in a place that we didn't necessarily want to be. He seems very uncomfortable with that and eager to fix it in his own way. Do you think Otto was strong enough in his telling Eamond and Kristen Cole, who he basically was like, hey, get back to work. Do you think he was strong enough in saying, hey, stop planning stuff?

No.

0%. I think he should have been much like, hey, don't stop it.

Yeah, this is, like, out of turn. This is not your role. Yeah, I think so. I do wonder, do you think Aemond knows about Kristen Cole and Alicent?

No. I think if anybody knows, it's maybe Laris, who kind of had that little wink and a nod when he said, oh, I heard you were indisposed. I couldn't get a hold of you. So I think he, and obviously, as he talks about the fact that he has cleared out all the spies in the red keep and we can surely assume has replaced them with his own. Right. So he knows stuff, but I doubt that anyone else has any idea, like Otto would shut it down immediately.

Right? Yeah. That can't be an alliance that anybody is, anybody would be happy about. Really?

Yeah. I think Kristen Cole would be on the first wagon to the wall if this was known, you know?

Yeah. If he got there. Right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, Greta, I think it's time to talk about the final part of the episode, starting with Damon's mission to hire blood and cheese.

This is my friend. Tonight, he's going to be your friend. You're to find and slay the prince, aemond Targaryen. He has silver hair and one eye, should be easy enough to find.

But.

I understand he's quite good in a fight. You want to take caution. It's one half. If we get the other one, it's done. All right. What if we can't find him?

For non book readers, blood and cheese are the names of the two assassins, the soldier of the city watch and the rat catcher, respectively, who brutally murder young prince Jaehaerys in front of Helena. One is named cheese. Obviously, thats the rat catcher. And the other blood, for reasons that I think are obvious as well, his amenability to doing terrible things. Brutal assassination of Prince Jaehaerys, brutal, essentially, in front of his mother.

That was horrible. And of course, to make matters worse, Helena sort of predicted the danger. Right? She mentions that she's afraid of rats earlier in the episode when she says she's more afraid of rats than dragons. And it was another one of those prophecies that people just completely dismissed. Aegon's like, isn't the queen quirky?

You'd think that after this, Aegon at least would be like, oh, you know what? She did make the comment about the rats, like, when I'm waiting for them to notice, this was terrible. Blood and cheese. This whole thing was, oh, my God, this is one of those. This was a moment that I think book readers are probably waiting for and dreading a little bit. Certainly I was dreading. And it was awful. It was as awful as. As I expected. It was terrible.

The way the tension ratcheted up for that last quarter of the episode, or whatever it was, was just. You knew something terrible was going to happen.

I mean, very clearly, this is going to be a stain on Rhaenyra's reputation. It can't be anything other than that, for sure.

This is not what she asked for.

This is not what she asked for. So there's a moment where blood and cheese are like, okay, but what if we can't find Aemond? And then daemon kind of gets this strange look on his face, and then it cuts. Do you think Damon said, anyone you can get, or did he specifically ask for this? Or did he just leave? Do you think he asked for this?

I mean, I hate thinking about it, but, yes, I do think he asked for it. I think he wanted to destroy the whole, like, team green side of the Targaryen line, and that was how he could do it.

I also think he specifically asked for this. And I think that you're right. Damon's goal is all out total war. And I think he knows that this is the way to get it.

Yes.

This is just gonna cause this war to spiral completely out of control now and again. Part of what I think Aemond's annoyance, frustration at the way he's being seen in the realm now is also the fact that he now has the reputation of a Kinslayer, and Rhaenyra is going to have that, too. And it's just really, really sad. I can't even imagine Helena's mind state after that.

Also interesting to think about the way it was portrayed and also not portrayed was a really interesting choice from the point of view of the director. And the way that scene played out was fascinating.

Tremendously thankful that we didn't see anything a thousand percent.

But even to hear it is still so traumatic. Right? I mean, it's. Yeah, it was really artfully done.

It was awful. And also, you know, I found myself thinking, once again, a failure of the Kingsguard. We failed during the kid fight, and here we are failing in the biggest. Where is everyone? Well, we know where the lord commander of the Kingsguard was at this moment. And I would imagine that that is going to be a point of conversation in the red keep. Like, sure. Where was the leader of our security force during the hours when this was happening?

I could see that.

What do you think the effect of this is going to be on the war, on the realm, on stability, on the ability to bring peace? I mean, we had just seen before this, that really touching scene in which Alicent lights a candle for all the. All the fallen, including lucerys, Velaryon, Rhaenyra's son.

I think it's all fucked. Yeah, I think we both have sort of been like, oh, Aegon's actually doing a pretty decent job, but he already seemed fairly difficult to reign in. I have a feeling that after this, he's gonna be right.

I completely agree. It is absolutely reasonable to assume now that whatever reigns there were, that's over now. And Aegon and Aemond, whoever has the most brutal, most effective, most warlike plan, will get a hearing from the king, who I fully expect to be like, let me get on my dragon now.

Yeah, I think that tracks. I'm also very curious to see how Rhaenyra is going to respond to this.

I'll say this. I hope she's horrified.

Whew.

That's a good way of putting that. Well, as we talked about, that ending sequence was extremely difficult to watch. I will say I'm thankful we were able to talk it out and process things a bit. I am feeling a little bit better. I hope listeners are, too. How about you, Jason? I feel like we need a little check in here.

Same. Shall we go to a our interview with Olivia and Fia?

Let's do it. We are so excited to be joined today by our favorite mother daughter pair, Olivia Cooke, who plays Alicent, and Fia Savann, who plays Queen Helena. Welcome, you two.

Thank you for having us.

Fia, obviously, the ending of this first episode is completely devastating for your character. What was it like when you first read that? Like, did you know it was coming?

There's so many Game of Thrones House of the dragon fans in the world, even before the show existed, that if you sort of give people a sniff that you're in something like House of the dragon, and then they know that world at all, and you say, oh, I'm playing Helena. They're like, you know what happens to you, right? I was being told by people on the train that I was sitting next to, and I did know I'd seen it all a lot. Yeah. So I kind of knew it was coming in that sense. But nothing prepares you for opening it up and being like, okay, they're doing that episode one that's punchy. And I just really liked when I read in the script how simple they made it. It's all just set in the present, in the immediate moment, and, you know, there's not, like, too much dialog. They're not trying to do too much with it. I think, hopefully they just wrote something simple that speaks for itself. Yeah.

Do you think either Alicent or Helena ever imagined that Rhaenyra or her side was capable of something like this?

No, I don't think so. I think Alison is expecting retaliation, and I think she's probably expecting, you know, an eye for an eye. I think she can probably sense that Rhaenyra is going to go after one of her sons. But killing an innocent child is the most shocking thing in the world. But I think more than that, Alicent just holds herself accountable for it all because she was having sex with the head of the Kingsguard and the castle should have been on lockdown, and it wasn't. There was a real breach in security. And she completely takes that on as her own fault.

Oh, but this is the problem, isn't it? I wouldn't even say that Rhaenyra is capable of it because, you know, she didn't do it.

No.

And actually, that is the heartbreaking thing about this show, is that everybody feels that their flaws or their actions, they center themselves in the tragedy. That's what this whole family does constantly. And the reality of it is that, I mean, some might say there's just a sort of Targaryen curse. This stuff's gonna happen. But I also think it's really interesting that everybody feels responsible in that way. And you just see loads of different people coping with the fact that they blame themselves.

Yeah.

In so many different. Different ways.

Yeah, exactly.

I think you're totally right. It seems to me that Rhaenyra is not capable of such. She would not do that. And she didn't. Right. I mean, that's very.

No, she didn't. But Alicent doesn't know that. And I think within this, like, family dynamic, you don't really know what people are capable of because things have gotten so extreme so fast. And the time period that we're in is sort of born from battle and.

Legend and bloodshed, lulled into a false sense of security. Yeah.

Fiat Helena is given an impossible choice when confronted by blood and cheese to point out which of her children is the prince. What do you think is going through her mind in that moment?

I think it's an interesting one. I really wonder what people will think about it. I think that what she hears from them is we are extremely dangerous men and we are more than capable of killing all of you. And you can make this easy for yourself, or you can make this harder for yourself. And obviously there's nothing easy about it. I would think it's unfair to say that somebody like Braver would be like, no, you won't have either of them. I don't think that's an option. I genuinely don't believe that's an option in that moment. And I actually think it's kind of powerful that she's honest the first time, because I think that is exemplary of how high the stakes are for her. Like, I am not going to mess this up or I don't have an option here. This is about saving a child's life.

Well, that's interesting, too, because I do think, to your point also, there's a real integrity to that, which is kind of all she has at that point in a lot of ways. Right?

I think so. I think that that's true about Helena. I think this is something I've been thinking about, actually, since people have been asking me questions about Helena for the first time, is what's a world like where Helena gets all the validation that her thoughts are interesting or important? How different would she be? Would she be more in touch with or, like, proud of her intuition that she has her foresight and therefore, like, see it as a power? But the reality is, and this is the other thing that I just keep realizing, talking about the show, is that. And it's also so true to family dynamics is that, like, every child thinks that they're the one that's sort of been let down the most a little bit. And I think you really see that with the brothers and with her. It's like, we've all been hard done by, and it's a bit of the pain olympics. But I think that what she does have, even though she hasn't been encouraged to have the most free communication style, she is actually really honest. Yeah, yeah.

And she's literal.

Exactly. Which is quite pure in a world which is like, we must strike them with the darkness.

Yeah. It's all metaphorical, sort of.

Well, and even, like, I'm worried about the rats. Right. It's like, oh, yeah, that's actually pretty literal, turns out.

Totally.

That is something that we've talked about on this pod quite a bit, is Helena's capacity, apparently, for a prophecy. And we wondered, when are people around Helena gonna notice that she says things that happen to come true? When are people gonna pay attention to her?

I've brought up the Cassandra archetype before in these interviews. You know, that that is part of the whole shebang. The validation doesn't come Fia for people.

Who maybe need a greek myth reminder on Cassandra. Can you explain? It's a beautiful analogy, but I wonder if you can just sort of, like, fill people in on who she is and. And why she seems similar to Helena.

Was it the fall of Troy? Maybe it was the fall of Troy, which kind of links to the.

We can google it. Yeah.

Livy's googling it.

Beautiful. Thank you, Olivia.

My understanding of it is that and actually randomly, I played her at drama school with about four other girls, which means I really should know. I think it was in trojan women. So, yeah, I think that she predicted the fall of Troy, and the curse is not only that she has this foresight, but built into it is that extra heartbreak that the cas. Is that no one will believe her.

Yeah.

So sad.

Maybe Alicent will see it first because we're the closest. But I think if we hadn't have been forced together in this season, I don't think she would notice it, because I think when a mother looks at a child, or at least from my experience with my family, they sort of just. They see you as an extension of them. And so anything that's different, there's a complete blind spot to it because they have not got the experience or the capacity for that. And so I think she's constantly trying to mold Helena into the vision of herself, into a mini Alicent, because that's the only thing she knows.

Yeah, I think that's so true. I think that's why mother daughter relationships are so interesting and why they're so important, because. Exactly that. Like, it's almost like your propensity for closeness in the relationship is so high that you can also be let down the most by that person. Yeah, it's just, like, deeper for some people. And also, I guess, if you're lucky, like, you can reach highs together of understanding, but that also means that you can feel the most let down or misunderstood. And that's why it's painful between Alison and Helena, for sure.

Because I think also she feels Helena's pain so deeply, she just can't understand it.

Exactly.

Oh. Oh, it's beautiful. So, Olivia, how is Alicent at this moment in time? It's something we've talked about a fair amount, even just with this one episode, because it's like, in some ways, I feel like she does have more agency than ever before. But also, things are not going well.

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I don't think she realized how big of an exchange of power it would be to put her son on the throne and then become the dowager. And I think she always felt that she would have the ear of her sons and would be able to shape in the shadows. But when that title is removed, the power really ebbs from her, and they see her in a completely different. Well, they don't see her anymore, and her voice becomes less and less heard at the small council chamber and within the kingdom itself. It's a place where Alicent just never thought she would be. She was sort of indoctrinated to be this, to be like a mini hand to the king, you know, without the title. And now she can't exercise any of that and sort of feels like she's in a car and the brakes aren't working and she can't do anything about it. And she has lost the trust in her staff, so she sends them away. So she feels more alone than ever and more paranoid than ever.

They were getting way too involved in the bathroom.

They were getting way too involved in the bath. Back off, back off. Give me some space. So, yeah, we meet her at a really, really interesting point in her story and also in her personal development as well.

The relationship with Christian Cole, how did that happen?

Many, many a theory, many, many discussions. There were bits and bobs, like, there were longing looks in the later half of last season that was sort of cut out and different asides to each other. And I think young Alison sort of professes her instant attraction for Kristen Cole with the God, he's Dornish, he's gorgeous, he's gorgeous. And I think that sort of flame for him has sort of lived very quietly in Alicent this whole time. And I think they became closer as he became her personal knight and her. Her sworn protector. Strange things happen in grief and in death, and sex is sort of this, like the antithesis of death, really. And I think she sort of, even though she's grieving the loss of her husband, she sort of feels liberated from being this, this caretaker. And I just. I mean, this was our sort of, like, head canon stuff, because it's not written, but we sort of thought it happened maybe, like, literally, like days after the death of viserys, and they became closer in Alicent's grief. And I think it's really teenage. I think it's really teenage for Alicent. She's never been able to have a relationship that's born out of passion.

So true. It's almost like her coming of age after her husband dies.

Died? Yeah. She's born all these children when she was just a child. She's, like, on Rumsprenger. It is just a bit like she's lived. She's lived for other people and she's lived by the rules. So, exactly that this is just a little thing that she's taking for herself within her grief and within.

She can't even have that.

She can't even have that. I know.

It's rough, innit?

It is rough. I don't think Alison smiles this season. I don't even know if she's got teeth.

I mean, I will say it is exciting to see her seeking out pleasure. She didn't get to take her own needs into account at all in season one.

Yeah. And if there's anyone more adept at serving, it's Kristen Cole.

So true.

So true. So, yeah, she's having a great time with that. As we see.

It does seem like Alicent trusts Kristen. Do you think that's a fair characterization?

Yeah, she does. He's sort of the only man that she can trust. She doesn't really trust her father. She definitely doesn't trust her sons. She doesn't really trust anyone at the small council table. Maybe maester or wild. Maybe she trusts him.

Oh, he's so nice.

He's so. He's so lovely. But he's also. He's sort of a bit too bipartisan for her liking.

Yeah, he's a bit.

Yeah.

You know, whereas, like, whatever Alicent says, kristen would be like. Yeah, they're a fucking bitch. Yeah, I know. You know, and she sort of, sort of needs someone like that because there's no one else you can say it to.

Yeah.

And she trusts Helena, but it's a different relationship and that's a mother daughter and she wouldn't impart her sort of.

Helena would be like, TMI. Yeah.

And also, I think there is just, like, a massive dose of attraction there, which has made this sort of relationship fizz along for a long time.

I mean, a crush is, like, amazingly powerful, isn't it? Like, that can make a boring week in the castle, like something to live for.

Yeah, exactly. And there's not much for her to really occupy her time with.

Exactly.

There, especially now, you know, a big part of her life, which was caring for Viserys and sort of ruling in his stead, has been taken away.

Yeah. Need a new hobby.

Need a new hobby. Yeah. Get on the horse. But also not to make it feel too reductive. I think it's something that she's desperately needed. I think it's incredibly cathartic for her and it's key to her development. And it's huge for sort of seeing what life can be like away from this world. You know, she's been so myopic for such a long time and now she's, like, physically feeling and thinking about what she wants for herself. But also that activates something else.

So much of both Alison and Helena's roles as queens is about having children, creating heirs. How would you describe each of your characters as mothers?

Really simply. I think they're a huge part of her routine and a massive source of safety for her and their little world and their imagination and all of that is something that she really appreciates. I was gonna say I don't think she's changing nappies, but I don't know. What do you think?

With Helena, there's more of, like, an earthiness and so I think she would sort of want to get stuck in.

Yeah, I agree. I know. I was about to say that it's an amazing source of, like, structure and love, and it's very reciprocal love. And I think that's what's important about it for her, is that that relationship is almost really simple and it's like, how clear the need is. And that's not something that is a simple topic in this family, because actually the need is so strong that it clouds things. Like, I think the tragedy of the dynamic of the greens is how much they need each other. And it's all miss each other every single time. Every single time we're not met. And then the damage is deeper and deeper, whereas that relationship with those kids, the need is, like, pure. So, yeah, I retract, I think the nappies. I think she's in there with the.

Nappies, but it's also, you were a queen as well, so I wonder how much of that you'd be allowed to do.

So true.

I think for Alison, it's so hard. She had kids when she was 14. I think it's really hard for her to mother in a way that she desperately wanted to be mothered and to mother, you know, she was a child having children, and I think when it comes to her son's, they demonstrate, like, severely all the traits that Alicent has within her, but keeps a lid on. But they. They embody them with absolute confidence. And I think she's incredibly disgusted by them and just disappointed. And I think there's a lot of reflection, this series for her and thinking about, is she to blame? Was it the environment? Could she have done anything better? You know, she's looking at her sons on the precipice of unleashing chaos onto the realm and she's like, how could I have been better? This is all my fault.

Oh, there's such a parent thing.

Yeah, yeah, bad mom.

Bad mom syndrome.

Yeah, bad mom syndrome. Take it back to mom's school.

Sorry I'm such a bad mother. Yeah.

If you don't like it, then get out.

Do we have time for one last question? I would love to know if each of you is actually team green or team black.

It's literally all I know, as in, like, genuinely my thing that I'm most looking forward to seeing this series is, like, understanding what the hell's going on on that side of the family. We're well and truly in an echo chamber.

We really are. I mean, and I love our gang.

Me too.

And I sort of bleed green at this point just because I'm completely biased and I have no idea what's going on over there. So seeing the episode for the first time last night, I was like, oh, yeah, you know.

We love our.

We do love our gang. Yeah, we've got a good family.

We do. Yeah, we really like it.

Well, Olivia fiat, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Greta. After all that we've seen, where does your allegiance lie currently, team black or team green?

Jason. It's so funny. We're one episode into this season, and I hate this question already.

I know, I know.

I was so adamant about being team black, and I think I'm gonna stick with it because a stark never gives up on his oath. That's where I'm at, I guess. What about you?

I remain team black with serious reservations. I think they need to tighten up their operation over there.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just generally speaking, we gotta get some checks and balances on Damon, but I remain team black again with. With heavy, heavy asterisks.

Yeah. Yeah, bold, those things. Before we go, jason, I think we should look at our season two bingo cards that we just made because we already get to check some squares off. For better or for worse. Are you ready?

Yeah.

Let's do it.

Surprising romance. Check. Alicent and Sir Kristen Cole. Helena prophecy, sadly.

Check.

Very sad. Check. Damon murder cloak.

Now. He doesn't, does he? Murder.

I think murder by proxy while wearing cloak counts, right?

You're right.

He snuck off in the cloak and someone died. I feel like it still counts.

You're right. Were you surprised to see Christian Cole with his armor off, amend with his feet up, and they're just lounging, drinking beers, and looking at a map. Does that qualify as a surprising friendship?

Yeah, I think that does count as surprising. And, yeah, I think we should mark the bingo board for it.

We're going to need a bigger bingo card, greta. That's all for this episode, folks. Don't forget to join us again Sunday night, right after episode two airs on HBO and Max, when we'll be joined by by Tom Glynn Carney, who plays the magnanimous king Aegon, second of his name, and will also be joined by Matthew Needham, who plays the very sneaky, very subtle Lara Strong.

If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles, and you can find me retam John Sen on X and.

Instagram, and you can find me w three rk on X and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion.

Our executive producers for Pineapple street are Gabrielle Lewis, J. Ann Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannah's brown, and Hannah's also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija, and Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Paeis and Pedro Alvira.

Our editor is Darby Maloney, with fact checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and me.

Special thanks to Michael Glugstad, Allison Cohen, and Kenya Reyes. Save on Slater and Aaron Kelly from the Max podcast team.

Thanks for listening, everybody. And when Queen Helena says she's concerned about the rats, please listen to her next time.

I'm afraid.

Don't be. There'd be fools to come with Veigar protecting the city.

Not the dragons.

The rats.