Fuck, dignity. I want revenge. My father is dead.

He is, and we are the poorer for it. He was right about you.

He made me king.

Is that what you think?

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Greta Johnson.

And I'm Jason Concepcion, the War of Public Perception has begun, Greta. And Reneer and team Black, they're going to need to go back to the drawing board.

I completely agree with you, but I do think that no one is really thriving in any of these situations. And today we're going to get into all that and more as we break down the second episode of Season 2 titled Raineera: The Cruel. It was written by Sarah Hess and directed by Claire Kilmer.

And later in this episode, we'll be joined by the grieving and newly emboldened leader of team Green the sovereign himself, Tom Glincarny, who plays King Egan. Fuck Dignity. I want revenge. Plus, we also get to talk to Matthew Needham, who plays the very creepy King of Gossip in Westeros, Lara Strong.

But first, we are going to unpack this episode, so proceed with caution. Here's your little spoiler warning, oh, listener. We are going to be talking about episode 2 of season 2. If you haven't watched it yet, go watch it and then come back.

We will not let the Queen falter. Before we start unpacking everything that happened, here is a quick recap of the episode. The Red Keep is in chaos in the wake of Prince Juharras' murder. Egan takes out his sorrow on his father's model of Valeria. The Green small council meeting is tense. The recriminations are flying. Otto comes up with an idea, blame the murder directly on Renier and use it to bloody her image. The houses that perhaps might lie with her will hesitate and even fall away at the site of such a villain. He proposes an open casket funeral procession with Queen Helena and Allison riding right behind the coffin. On Dragon Stone, Renier is like, What? What happened? They blame Kufu, they blame me? But she quickly figures out that Damon ordered it. They have it out. She asks Damon, Do you accept me as Queen? And Damon says that Viseri's only named Reniera his heir to hurt him, Damon. And next thing you know, Damon is out of there, off to somewhere on Caraxis. Reniera meets with Messaria, who admits that she worked with the high towers, but that was just all business. Anyway, she regrets it.

Okay, back in King's Landing, we see Eric Cargyle of the King's Guard again. Here's how I remember, by the way, Eric, A for Alicent. Eric? Eric.

Eric. A. A for Alicent is amazing. But you need him to wear a big A on his armor so that you can tell visually as well.

Cole rips Sir Eric, a new one for various offenses, including not stopping the attack on Pritch to Harris. Cole says that Eric Here's a way you can redeem yourself. Go alone to Dragon Stone, pretending to be your brother, Sir Eric, and kill Reniera. Meanwhile, King Egon has all the rat catchers employed by the Red Keep executed, and that includes the guilty party cheese. Otto is furious at this, and then Otto learns of the Eric Eric parent trap assassination plan, and he flies off the handle. At the end of the argument, the King fires Otto and makes the shocked Kristen Cole his hand. In the episode's final minutes, we see the parentrap plan play out in horrible fashion. Eric and Eric Duhl. Eric wins, but then Eric, overcome by sorrow, kills himself. But don't worry, the episode ends with Allison and Cole having a more substantial brunch than we have seen them have to date.

An angrier brunch than we've seen so far, too, wouldn't you say?

I would say so, and I'm eager, in fact, to talk about not just this brunch, but other brunches that we see in this episode. I think there's a difference in the way that House of the Dragon is treating brunch this season. You really get a sense of sex as something that reveals something existential about these characters in their relation to it. It gives you a window into what they need. Cole hates himself on some level.

Clearly.

Right? Yeah. And likes to She, on some level, likes to lose control and be abused. Allison wants to feel like she's in trouble, is looking for that feeling of power. Amand wants to be nurtured, wants to be held, and wants to be in a safe place to say, I feel bad. I feel bad that that happened. I thought those were really deep scenes beyond just the drama of it all. I thought those were really well done in revealing character moments.

We had another one, too, between Reynis and Corlis, which I think was less maybe telling. I think it affirmed what we already knew, which is that they are a partnership that is always lovely to see. I thought Corlis' line, too, about like, Man, bummer that Damon doesn't like to get told what to do. Like, he's really missing out. It was pretty great, too.

Greta, I think a lot of things happened against my instincts, against my natural inclinations while watching this episode. One of them is a distinct empathy for King Egon.

Yes, same. I was also surprised by that one, given what we know about Egan's history of sexual assault from season one. But I completely agree with you. Tom Glencarny, who plays Egan, is doing a phenomenal job. He's wonderful. And I think we definitely called it in terms of, Fuck Dignity. He is pissed, and there is no more decorum happening with this situation.

No. I think this is the first time that I got a whiff of regret from Otto Hightower, not particularly his role in anything, but maybe just the way things are going, the destructiveness and unpredictableness of this affair already, I think, has come to surprise him. The tragedy of the death of the Prince Jujeraris, those opening scenes where the castle is in chaos. People are running to and fro. People are being rounded up, surely to be questioned by Laris. The weeping, the shock.

The bloody blanket.

It was really, really bracing and really, really terrible. I think we said in the previous episode that we hoped that Reniera would be horrified, and she clearly was.

She did seem just completely appalled. Another we talked about in the last episode, which I feel even more strongly about this time around, is that these castles need to get their security in check.

It's terrible.

But yes, we, of course, have to talk about the scene between Reniera and Damon because it was very tense.

I cannot trust you, Damon. I've never trusted you wholly, much that I wish to, willed myself to. But now I have seen that your heart belongs only to you. And when I was a child, I took this as a challenge, but I'm older now. I have challenges enough. I have served you faithfully. Have you? Or have you used me as a tool with which to grasp your stolen inheritance?

So much throwing in this episode.

It's a lot of throwing of things. This is a harrowing scene. It is. I found myself wondering, does Damon even know what he wants at this point? When Viserus He was alive, I think he had a North Star. He just wanted to be close to his brother. He wanted to be respected by him. He wanted to be standing next to Viserus with Viserus's arm around him. Now, it's like I don't know that Damon knows what he's doing, what he wants, other than to take revenge on Otto Hightower and his enemies. But I'm not even sure that is a real direction. Do you think he knows what he wants?

It's a really good question. I think I think for Damon, probably the sweet spot right now is that he can call vengeance loyalty. Yes, he has this desire to get revenge, but it's really just because he wants chaos. But he can be like, Look, but babe, I did this for you.

He took his passion. He made it his job.

It's the dream, really, right? Yeah. But yes, Rhaenriah seemed genuinely... It is very clear that she had no idea what was It's going to happen. That moment when she looks over at Damon and then what passes on her face is so perfect. It's like you know exactly what is happening. She's like, That motherfucker.

It is amazing. I watched that several times just in a row because the look is so weighty. Reniera is going, How could they think after what happened to Luke that I would target a child? We have to send messages out to the realm. We have to tell people I was not behind this. We will find the killers. How could this have happened? Oh, my God. Then she looks at Damon and he looks at her with this like, What?

Who, me?

I don't know. I was hoping, I agree with you that these castles need to get their security in order. But more to the point, I said before the season, in the preview episodes, I saw at the end of last season, I'm team Black. I believe Runeera is in the right. At the same time, It's difficult to ignore the slap-dash nature of her government style at the moment. She's heartbroken, obviously, at the loss of Luke, but she disappears for crucial days. In that vacancy, Damon is just left to drive the ship of state to disastrous ends. They don't have a plan to message what Reniera plans to do or what her response is going to be. Then when confronted with the truth by Damon, I was hoping for something stronger. I understand it would be very hard to weaken herself right now, but couldn't you just dump all the blame on him or something? I don't know what the answer would be, but it feels like I wanted something stronger for her in that moment, and we didn't get it.

It does feel like she's just constantly playing catch up, which is not the way to win anything. As this conversation continues, I just find myself thinking, Damon, you're delusional.

You're delusional. It's sad that it took Reniera this long to figure you out.

It also he should be a helpful soldier, you know what I mean? Or at least if he were, everything would be way different.

Let's play that clip where they continued into a discussion about Viserus.

Do you believe he made you heir because of your great wisdom, because of your virtue? How dare you? Or did he merely use you as a tool to put me in my place because he was afraid of me?

Because you knew your legacy, unlike mine, would never outshine his own. He was not afraid of you, Damon.

He could not trust you any more than I can trust you. You was a fool. You sought greatness but shrank from spilling blood to achieve it, and I see you will suffer the same fate.

You struck down a child.

It was a mistake.

This is like Do you ever have a moment where you're around someone who seems very put together, and then they open their mouth a little bit and you're like, Actually, you look the part, but you're a mess. That's Damon here. It's like, Bro, you're delusional. You're nuts. This is really what you think? Reneer is right. You're pathetic.

What I think is really interesting about that scene, though, and the note that I took when I was watching this is that both have valid points. I mean, the thing Damon says about Viserus not being willing to spill blood and fearing that Rhaenera will do the same is real.

I think yes. I think you're right about that. I would take a slightly different angle on it in that. Reniera is at war right now, and I think it's a credit to leaders to try and solve their problems in the least bloody way possible. Yes.

Also, if there's any doubt at all, I just want to be very clear that I do not recommend killing children in as the solve for any of this.

Quite telling that it was a mistake, seemed like it was pulled out of Damon by 100 horses.

Yeah, no. And he is pathetic.

He really is. Where do you think he's off to?

Well, it sounds like he's going to Heron Hall, but it is Rainis who says to Corlis, basically, let's trust that's what he's actually doing. Yeah. I imagine if he could align the Riverlands and really secure that for team Black, if he could show up saying, Look what I managed to pull off for us, I could see that being a very useful off-ramp. But yeah, I don't know. I think that's one of... Damon is such a wild card, and it's wondering actually how loyal he is is a pretty difficult question to answer. I think I definitely can't picture him with team Green, but whether he's just all chaos at this point or going to try to make some form of amends is a really interesting question. What do you think?

It's hard to understand where he could go and what real impact he could make alone. He does have a dragon, and that will be important. But taking Herenhall by himself seems like a pretty steep hill to climb. This is where I wonder if it wouldn't be better if Rhaneera took Damon's criticism to heart and said, Okay, maybe I will spill blood. Maybe I'll be a little ruthless. How about I throw you in the dungeon and say, I just think that isn't this right now, the mistake that Viserus made? Is he issued all these warnings, I'll tear your tongue out, I'll do such and such if this happens or if this happens, and the red lines kept being crossed. Here is a chance for Reniera to put the blame on somebody else and take out a cancer in her own organization. Maybe she should do something here. He has no particular followers. He's heated all around the country. It's not like you're going to lose other than... Bayla, I think, might feel a way about it. Sure. But it's not like you're going to lose... It's not like an army is going to Why not think about throwing him in the dungeon or something?

Yeah, I think that's a very good point that would have been such a great defense against what happened, too, right? No, I had nothing to do with this. And look, I even... Here's the person. Yeah, exactly. I will say also, Bayla definitely already has some dad stuff. Oh, yeah.

I'm getting in line. We all do. Everybody in this world has got it.

I loved that scene with those two, though.

I I love that, too.

It was sweet. And so Harwin Strong?

He was gentle and fierce.

They called him Breakbones.

He loved us, I think.

Of course he did. I miss Luke.

I found the way they spoke of their fathers and then came to the subject of Harwin Strong and clearly seemed to speak of him as if in this private setting, yes, we all agree, he was Jace's father. They could speak the truth in this place. That was really sweet. To your point, it was really sweet.

Yeah. I think, too, just seeing those characters who were such young kids in season one really have their own agency, and they're getting tasks, and they're showing up and doing their jobs, I think is just really interesting. What a nice pair.

Yeah, and it's that rare pairing up there with Renice and Corlis that seem to get along, which is nice. It is sad that as they're having this very warm and vulnerable conversation. They are both in training to be child soldiers with Baylor shooting a crossbow at targets. Fair point. About to be sent on a scouting mission to make sure none of the Dragons are sallying forth from the Red Keep.

You have a very valid point, Jason, and I appreciate it.

But yes, a very sweet scene between the two of them. Meanwhile, in the Green Council, I think things are similarly chaotic. Let's play that clip.

And where were you? The Lord Commander of my Kings God? I was, your Grace, having ordered the night's watch. A bed. A bed? Instead of safeguarding the sanctity of my family.

This is not the time for blind accusations, your Grace. We'll know who did this soon enough. Who did this? What?

Is there any question who did this?

Who would do this, save the bitch queen of Bastions, the smug cunt of There she sits across the bay on her rock laughing at me. She's fucking laughing at me.

Such a great moment. Incredible. I do also, I would love to know who actually wrote that phrase, smug cunt of Dragonstone. Because I think it's exquisite. The consonance is just perfect.

Cole was in bed, ensuring the safety of some of the family.

I I love the, A bed. It's so perfect.

Yeah, because wait, come on. You can't be asleep during this. The worst security breach in the history of the realm. You can't. You can't be like, I was sleeping. Not good enough.

Especially, I was sleeping with your mom. Yeah.

Not good enough. But watching the Green Council's, the responses to this emergency, I was left with a very begrudging respect for Otto Hightauer's skill.

You mean in terms of forcing Alicent and Helena to ride behind the dead child?

The whole plan.

A funeral progress. Let them see the child. Let them look upon the works of this pretender to the throne. Father. My king.

No. I will not have my little son's body dragged through the street like a dead dog. Not dragged.

On it. Escorted to the dragon pit to be burned as a Targarian Prince.

It's ruthless. I think also, as we saw, highly effective. Bringing a focus to the thing. He's the only one, seemingly at the moment, that has a plan that isn't, Well, why don't we just burn all their stuff?

I hear you. I think it's really interesting. I mean, it's something we've talked about throughout season one as But I thought this episode, especially, really clarified the difference between the people who are still concerned for the realm and the people who want vengeance.

Yeah. I think what you're seeing is the people who are concerned for the realm, the reins are slipping through their hands at the moment. They thought they would be more in control, and they are increasingly not in control of this thing. The dogs of war are loose. Well, I should ask you this. Do you blame Reniera at all? I think as the leader of Team Black, Damon did this behind her back. We all understand that. He gave very vague messaging about what should happen If Amand is not found. In that vagueness, something terrible happened. At the same time, Reniera as the head of state, this is your fault. I do. Whether or not you ordered it, you didn't want it, but this is your fault.

Yeah. I mean, the The minute you walk in and say you want vengeance, you want someone dead. If Damon's on your team, she should have known better for sure.

Yeah. It's like you look at Team Green and there's Otto, there's a Master of Coin, there is a master of There is a maester there. There's people who will push back to a certain extent, obviously within limits, who will say, Is that a good idea right now? What about this? Whereas on Team Black, and again, I This is the team that I would love to win. I believe Runeera deserves to be on the throne. At the same time, it feels so ad hoc that looking at these two meetings together, the Green Council and the Black Council, it's, again, hard not to come away pretty impressed with what they have in King's Landing and with Otto at the Helm.

Right. Which is interesting also thinking about, even just in the clips we've listened to in this episode, it's also like, how many glasses has Egon broken? Like, he He's throwing pits. But we're still like, they really have something going on over there. I'm really curious to talk to you about the actual depiction of the funeral procession, partly because in that clip we just listened to, Otto talks about they're bringing him to the dragon pit to be memorialized as a Targarian should. We don't see that part. What we see is really, I mean, we see the child, but what we really see is Helena and Allison, and what it must be like for them to go through it, which was so haunting and grim.

It was grim, and I found myself squirming at Helena's discomfort of it all. She is someone who is a complete passenger in all of this. No one is listening to her. There's that terrible, heartbreaking moment where it's only been an hour since Prince DeHarris's murder, and she sees her husband, for what I assume, is the first time since that happened. They pass on the stairs and he says nothing to it. That's what her existence has been like. She doesn't want to ride on the funeral bear. Too bad, you have to do it. She clearly wants to fly out of her skin and all these hands reaching up to her and all these people calling her name. It makes her incredibly uncomfortable. She doesn't want to be there. She has to be there. I just feel for her. It's awful. It's terrible for her.

It is. I thought that scene before when Allison has to talk her into it was also just also devastating and very telling where it really shows you how much Allison has put herself through because of the idea of duty and how awful it is that she has to carry that on into a new generation also. It's just like,.

There's to be a funeral for Jaheris.

We've been asked to ride on a wagon behind his body. I don't want to.

Neither do I. But when a thing like this happens, a blow to the king is a blow to the realm. When the people share our grief, they draw closer to us. I don't want them closer.

I don't know them.

Sometimes we have to pretend.

Why?

We are representatives of the Throne. We have a duty.

There was a lot of talk of Doody in this episode. Yeah.

There's also something so exploitative and deeply hierarchical and misogynistic, too, about the way that it's like, let's exploit the grief of these women, of these mothers. Yes. Then I thought the show did something very smart, which is end on the very private grief of Egon, his mother finds him weeping alone because there's no place for that in this world. Nobody wants to see that. He's already perceived as weak. You can't have people seeing him cry.

She turns her back on him, too, which is also devastating. It really felt like a moment that showed how much Allison has failed Egan as a mother.

Yeah. It's just so tragic and sad.

It's all really tragic and sad.

From there, it's very interesting to see how everybody's reacting to this. Amand is burying himself in a It was really interesting to see his relationship to this place because it seems like, first of all, the same brothel that we saw in season one, the same brothel keeper. It's like a place of comfort for him, strangely.

Yeah. I mean, seeing the way he rolls up in the fetal position in her lap was just like, Oh, this poor child.

You know? Yeah. Who was always the second. It was always about Egan, anyway. It's his seizing of Vágar that put him on the map, not anything that has to do with him as a person. Here in this moment, in the arms of this woman, Madame Sylvie, he finds the comfort of a mother that he clearly did not get from his own mother.

Yeah, let's listen to that, too.

I do regret that business with Luke. I lost my temper that day. I am sorry for it. I am glad to hear it. They used to tease me, because I was different.

I would remind you only that when princes lose their timbre, it is often others who suffer. A small fuck, like me.

I was struck by how this episode tells us a lot about how the affairs of state, this ongoing war, intersects with the small folk. We get that scene with Hugh the Hammer and the economic worries that he's going, your prices of food are going up. King has promised him money, when's it going to come? And Madame Sylvie here saying, Princes can argue, but when they argue, guess who's going to get hurt? I thought that was really important and really powerful.

Yeah, it's interesting thinking about how the world has expanded in terms of the different locations that we're talking about from season one. But it's also very much expanded in terms of the different kinds of characters we're seeing, which I think is really interesting. I think with Thrones, you never really know. I think blood and cheese are another example. God, I hate saying that phrase so much. But in terms of, often there are characters that you'll meet who will die in the next episode, and that's not an uncommon arc to see in a show like this. But it's really interesting to get to know this guy, Hugh, and see how he's impacted. I'm super curious to see how his storyline continues.

The same. I thought that whether it's Adam and Alan of Hall on DriftMark or even Messaria telling Rhaneera how she became who she was or Madame Sylvie, there is a path to upward mobility that is available if you get close to these powerful people. It's interesting to see their different relations to it. Adam is like, Allen, man, Lord Corlus likes you. You got to get in there. You got to get in there, buddy. That's going to be great for us. Hugh the Hammer is like, Well, the King promised, and who knows? And hopefully that will come through. And then you have Messaria who's like, I sold what I could, which was myself. And through that business with rich and powerful people, I was able to become rich and powerful myself. And so you're struck by there's only one way out of the mud of the of existence here. And it's by aligning yourself somehow, some way with these powerful people. It's like the only road there is. And it's such a different way of living than you are used to experiencing.

Yeah, totally.

By the end of the episode, Egan has taken the reins. He has the rat catchers, all the rat catchers killed. Then he's also very happy about Kristen Cole's parentrap plan men, which aims to make Sir Eric, pretending to be his identical twin, Sir Eric, sneak into Dragon Stone to kill Reniera. When Otto hears of this, in the middle of having the argument about the rat catcher, as he realizes actually the water is much deeper than you think. He blows up, and next thing you know, he's getting fired. Let's play that clip.

Remove your badge, Sir Otto. You are my father's hand, not mine. Take it off.

You wouldn't dare.

I have dead. And I find it stimulating.

I love the moment where he says, Now give it to him. Oh my God.meaning Kristen Cole, and you see a bucket of ice water just splashed in Kristen Cole's face. He's like, Wait, what?

So, yeah, you think he was surprised by that?

I think clearly he was surprised by that. And I think that surprise was maybe the most winning thing that I saw from Kristen Cole in this episode because it was that moment where he, at least my read on it, understood that he is not up to this job.

Yeah, he's not going to be good at that.

Yeah. You know, what is the saying in the realm, The King shits and the hand wipes? I think that with Egan, it's going to be The hand smashes. Kristen Cole is not a strategic thinker.

The King shits and the hand sets the shit on fire, is what we're about to see.

Yeah. What did you think of this? What is your assessment of Kristen Cole's ability to be the lead advisor to the king.

No. I think so much of... I mean, Kristen Cole is a mess in so many ways, but obviously, he just has hated Reynira for so long that any excuse he has to be terrible to her, he's going to leap on it. I think in this instance, it just happened to also align with what Egan was looking for, so it worked out conveniently that way. But no, I think he would be... I think Laris would have been a much better choice for hand because I think you do need someone in that role who can think strategically and who is behind the scenes and maybe a little devious, but that's probably necessary in that role, too. But I think that's the other thing about Kristen Cole. I mean, that plan was terrible. I don't think he's that clever of a thinker at all.

Let's talk about the parent trap plan.

I'm so glad you're calling it that.

It almost worked. Let's give him that. It was like a full court shot that almost went in. It should not have worked.

It should not at all.

It absolutely should not have worked. It's also a plan, much like the awful blood and cheese plan, that could have waited. Good kernel of an idea there. Why don't we- Let's workshop it.

Work on it?

It's not like Eric and Eric are going to start looking less like each other. We can do this at a later date with a little better planning.

Jason, the way you called it a parent trap thing, it feels to me like it would be in a Shakespeare comedy and it's going to go wrong. It's just hard for me to think of like, Oh, yeah, you just pretend to be your twin and go kill a queen and then sneak back out somehow, and it's all totally cool. Yeah.

They have no idea whether Runeera has created a password system, whether there is something, arm bands, do the Does the armor look different now? Different cloaks?

Also that. I would love it if they just had different cloaks.

Yeah. Another failure of internal security at a very, very sensitive castle. Yeah.

It was just more explosive tension, very similar to episode one that way.

Considering the how kinslaying is viewed in the realm, this is the ultimate kinslaying, almost. As they are saying, in the midst of this fight, they came from the same tissue, the same womb. And that just gives it such a tragic bend.

Believe me, I had no choice.

I don't understand. Brother!

Do not do this.

I beg you.

You are the one who betrayed us, Eric.

I was struck by the sound of the swords. I don't know that they've ever sounded so deadly and menacing, like whizzing through the air with a whistle. Then the way they would… When they would strike, it was like a clang. You felt the heft of those things.

Well, and they're just There's a lot of things that are right there. The fact that it's in her bedroom, it's not a place where this is supposed to happen. There are a lot of places that are set up to be places where swords exist, but this is not supposed to be one of them. But also just the chaos of it, I thought was really well done in that scene. The fact that you didn't know who was who, it just really added to that sense of like, Oh, this just is not good.

I agree. In the books, this duel is almost framed as this legendary confrontation, a brother against brother and two equally matched, skilled warriors in this conflict that tore families apart. Here it's just a mess. It's two brothers stumbling around with their hands at each other's necks, falling into stuff, people screaming, things getting broken. The messiness and roughness of that, I think, was really revealing. Nothing romantic, nothing honorable, just like a terrible event.

Because, yeah, so often, violence like that is revered. It becomes legend and lore. But in reality, it's really horrible for everyone involved.

Yeah. I wonder the question now I'm left with at the end of this episode is, what does Reniera do? How does she react? Her government is in tatters. Her main advisor has been exiled or has left. Her private chambers were breached, and a member of the Queens Guard is dead. This is a mess. So what will Reniera do? She must realize now that she's got to tighten up as a leader. Well, so far, that's two episodes in a row that end with some really tragic murder and death. I think we might go I think we might go on a little run here of that, by the way.

Yeah, it definitely seems like we're noticing a trend for sure. It doesn't seem like it's going to get better anytime soon. But fortunately, now we get to dive into the mindset of one of the people behind such chaos, the talented Tom Glencarny, who plays King Agon. Let's take a listen. Well, Tom, we are so thrilled to have you on the podcast. Thank you very much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Tom, Egan has gone through a huge change at the start of Season 2. Last season, he didn't necessarily want to be king, but now it seems like he's starting to get some traction in the role. How do you think Egan is feeling about being king at the beginning of Season 2?

I think he's wearing this newfound optimism in his life. This is the first time we've ever seen Egan with purpose of any sort. It's a reason for him to get out of bed. It's a reason to give him some form of routine. It also qualifies his worth as a human being. He's always been sidelined, and now he's very much not. So, yeah, he's He's walking with a bit more of a spring in his step. He's two inches taller than he was. It reminds me of being a kid and never being able to get the remote control of the PlayStation, and then suddenly you've got the remote control in your hand and you get to press the buttons and you get power hungry. So, Yeah, it's a little bit like that.

It's funny because especially at the beginning of that first episode, he was magnanimous. He seemed like he was actually going to try to do his best for the realm.

Yeah. The thing that I'm battling with with Egon throughout season 2 is that he wants to be loved and feared at the same time. And those things don't go in tandem. You can't have one and the other at the same time. So it's treading that line and doing that dance to try and It makes some form of hybrid of the two, which I don't know if that exists. So, yeah, we see him have that battle and whether his openness to help the small folk is out of the goodness of his heart or wanting to make a good first impression to be liked by people, which would decrease the selflessness in that act. I don't know. I'm not sure about that yet.

What was Egan's relationship with Jiharas like?

I thought it was important to find as many layers to Egan as possible. It's quite easy to fall into the trap of playing a one-tone villain. And I always have believed that Egan is not that. He's a product of his upbringing, really, in many ways. I found that the introduction of Jujarras into his life was almost like a new start. First of all, it was something that he had created, he'd made with his sister. The way I tried to look at that as a concept rather than a human being is that he was a blank canvas and he could build the man that Egon always wanted to be, but never really had the chance to be. He loved him dearly, which I think people might be surprised by seeing that Egon is capable of love. But I think of him on the other side of the spectrum to a lot of people. I think he feels deeply. Anything he does feel, he feels on a cellular atomic level in his bones, which is what makes him as explosive and as volatile as he is because he doesn't know where to put all that emotion and all that energy building up, as opposed to him being cold and numb.

That does make sense to me. I mean, it's so interesting to think of Egon as you put it. He's such a product of just a terrible environment. I think so much about this show does end up being about generational trauma and how oppressive the system is for everyone, even when you do end up being king.

Yeah, I agree.

So can you tell us a little bit about how you read Egan's relationship with Helena? Because that's another one. We haven't seen a whole lot of it yet, but it seems very intense so far. I mean, we really just got that one moment in episode one, and then they cross paths on the stairs in episode two, which, of course, is after Jujarras' death.

Obviously, with their history of growing up together, they are aware of who the other one is. I feel like they're both living parallel lives, but in separate universes. They can't access each other in the way that each one needs. I think Egan is at the point where he knows that his sister is a little bit different and that there's not really much point in... He doesn't have the emotional intelligence, I don't think, to be able to give Helena what she needs and make her feel safe and loved. I don't think they have that. And I also don't think he has any interest in that either. But what he does have now, I believe, is a newfound respect for her for providing him with these two beautiful children.

Egan really seems to have a kinship with Kristen Cole. What is their relationship based on?

Well, I think Kristen Cole has always been a positive male figure for Egon. He's been consistent, he's been supportive, he's been encouraged It's a complicated one because he's not Squeaky Clean himself. But I think maybe he sees that. Maybe Egan sees that element to Kristen Cole. Also, Kristen Cole paid attention to him. For Serius never did. So he's like a big brother. That's the way I've looked at it, at least.

How do you think Egon would react if he found out about Kristen Cole and Alicent?

Well, he's a very impulsive character. He's ready to blow at any moment. So I think his initial reaction would be explosive and erratic and uncontrollable.

Yeah, that's fair.

Egan's decision to name Kristenristen Cole his Hand. Everybody seems to disagree with this around Egan, but he's very strident about it. What was behind that decision?

Again, he's impulsive. I don't think he thinks things through a lot of the time. But in that situation, Otto Hightauer had been keeping a gun on a very tight leash and pushing him to his limits. I just think Otto's lack of tact in that situation really signed his own death warrant in terms of being stripped his hand. Also, this whole culture of sending Ravens and waiting by the time, and he was sick of waiting. He wanted to get started. Especially after they had struck with the death of Jujeres. So yeah, and Chris and Cole had made that first step and popped the cherry, if you like, in terms of the whole attack towards Runear and the Black Side. So yeah, I was like, well, thumbs up to that. Let's go. Give him that badge.

I want to go back to Helena for a second because I do think it's a really interesting relationship. I mean, in so many arranged marriages in that time, you wouldn't even know anything about the person you end up with. But here they are. They do both know who each other is, which in some ways is such a gift. But do you think that Egan will ever pick up on Helena's magic prophecy vibes? When we talked to Olivia, her thought was, if anybody picks up on it, it's going to be Allison. But I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.

What is in pays attention to it and takes heat.

Yeah, as opposed to, well, she's just weird.

I don't know. I think maybe if patterns keep continuing and premonitions. I don't think things happen like the beast beneath the boards moment. You could give egg on 10 years and you could then say, well, she said that a week before, and then they got, oh, my God. Yeah. I don't know if he could work out himself. But yeah, I think we'd all be in a better place, wouldn't we? She's an asset to the team in more ways than anyone fully appreciates. So yeah, it'd be wise to cop on, I think.

There's that extremely heartbreaking and sad scene at the end of the episode where Allison walks in on Egan distraught, just weeping. It's an episode in which the sadness of the Queens had been used as public-facing public relations. But Egan can't express that unless no one is around. Talk to us about that scene.

I think that's a moment where we see Egon's fragility. And that's the scene about love, really, rather than loss. It's the time where we really see him purge himself of all these things he's been, like you say, trying to conceal from everyone around him. He keeps repeating, I will not be seen as weak. He's obsessed with that idea of not being seen as weak. And here we have him locked in a room on his own, allowing all that stuff that he sees as his weakness, showing emotion, even though he's one of the most emotional characters in this entire show. Yeah, we see him completely breaking down. It's just another bit of evidence to me. Once I read the script, he's an empath, and he feels so, so deeply, even if he tries to conceal it and even if he tries to wear a brave face over it. I think that's what fuels his catatonic nature and his... He's just ready to erupt.

Finally, how would Egon like to be remembered as a king when they're writing the histories of this time? What does he hope is written down there?

A king that, against all lods, came through and was heroic and powerful and just. And it around and made it around and made it a good place to live. I think he does want to be a good king. I don't think he wants to be evil. I don't think he wants to behead people. And it's just that impulsivity in him that he just can't control, I think. He's a feral dog, and he does need people around him that he trusts that can advise him in a very tactful way. And the people around him currently are not very tactful and try and force him into a corner, and that never works.

Well, Tom, thank you very much for joining This was a real pleasure.

Thank you. Likewise.

That was the lovely Tom Glencarny.

What a thoughtful guy. I agree. I thought that was so thoughtful. And you can tell he's really reflected a lot on Egon. Yeah. Which is a wild character to have to reflect on.

Well, we have another interview with a member of Team Green. Next up is Matthew Needham, who plays the man pulling the strings in King's Landing, Lara Strong. Let's listen to that conversation.

Are you going to hurt me? No. But I cannot vouch for his grace.

I am so excited that today we are joined by Matthew Needham, who plays the very sneaky and ruthless Laris Strong. Matthew, we are so delighted to have you on the podcast. Welcome.

Thank you very much.

One of our favorite things about Laris is he seems to view his role as primarily a collector of gossip. What do you think it is that drives Laris?

I think his ultimate motivation is, I think he just wants to have an impact on the world. I think he wants to leave a mark. I don't think he's vain and glorious. I don't think he needs people to know his name or become a legend. I think he just wants to make a mark on the world, just for himself, really, even just for himself.

The thing I keep thinking about with Laris is that it seems like he's got a real sweet spot when it comes to power, but maybe not quite accountability, if that makes sense. The world is so brutal, but he seems to be able to move around as he wants to and have influence as he wants to. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I don't think it's power that he's after and so much as control. I don't think he He wants to be the noose, but I think he'd like to be the rope. Do you know what I mean? I think he is able to move around, but he's developed that because of his disability. He's managed to give himself an invisibility cloak, and people don't really pay attention to him, and that's a real strength, and he's used it to his advantage. So, yeah, he's able to sneak up on you without you noticing. In his experience, who look right through you never see you coming.

You know, this season, we've already seen that Laris is quite eager to drive a wedge between King Agon and his top counselor, Otto Hightower.

I would think as we find ourselves standing within the hair's breadth, the war that you would wish to be viewed differently. How? Otto Hightauer was your father's and Lucrez.

Does he see Otto as a rival to him?

I think he sees Otto as what he is, which is an incredibly powerful, dangerous player. I think moving him changes the board, and the board is already changing. I think he sees it as an opportunity to take out a big player.

Do you think he does still have some allegiance to Allison to this point, or is it more about the on the board and what he needs to do to climb the ladder?

I think it's always about the players on the board. I think it speaks to the parasitic nature of him, that I think he has an innate sense of when his host is dying and when it's time to jump to the next one. Damn. So, yeah, he's in that stage, really.

After Laris delivers blood, one of the perpetrators of the murder of Prince Juharras, King Egan goes and kills all the rat catchers, which Otto is worried about because of the effect on the small folk. Is that dimension something that Laris worries about public perception?

Yeah, I think you'd be stupid not to. I think if you're a canny political operator, which Laris is, I think you must always have an ear to the small folk and what your kingdom is actually going through because they'll rise up and rip you to pieces in a second. Otto is right. It's a bad move to assassinate all those rat catchers.

What is Laris' opinion of Kristen Cole's ability to fulfill his duties as Hand of the King? Do you think he'll do a good job?

Well, I think he's less of a threat than Otto Hightauer, because most people are less of a threat than Otto Hightauer. But Kristen is a dangerous person, of course. But I think there's more of a potential to get around someone like Kristen. Also, Kristen is unpredictable, and you don't know where he's going to end up. He's a dangerous person, and he puts himself in dangerous positions, whereas Otto is much more careful about his own safety. He's more vulnerable, I imagine, Kristen Cole.

Do you think Laris is Team Green, or is it more just a fact of, again, the players on the board and where he is and the game he to play?

Yeah, I think he's like the OG Team Green. I think he was Team Green before. That was like Team Green. If you think about it, he foresaw the fact that there were going to be divisions and there was going to be the people would not accept Runeera. That was pretty evident. I don't think it's a surprise that you first meet Laris in the episode where Egon is born. I think he could tell that that was probably He's probably looking like the better option. And so he gets in there with Allison very, very early on to get the ball rolling, really early. So, yeah, I think he's team Green for now.

For now, Bum, bum, bum. Matthew, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. It was a wonderful conversation.

Thank you.

Okay, Jason, I think it is time for our weekly check-in. Are you still Team Black? I hate to even ask. It's just getting messier and messier.

I'm going to give it a little more. I'm not one to switch horses midstream, but I do need to see more from Team Black. I need to see more organization, effectiveness, everything.

Leadership, what about you? I still think I dislike Team Green more strongly than I like Team Black, and so That's how we're going to tally up allegiances this week.

Which team do you think is in the lead at the moment, Greta?

That's a very difficult question. I mean, I guess you could say Team Green in many metrics, but also, I mean, just thinking about Helena and Allison having to ride in that carriage through town, I stand by the fact that no one is winning in this situation at all, really. What do you think?

I agree with you. I think that Team Green on paper is winning, but I think the long-range metrics are very bad with Otto out of the way and the hottest heads currently in control. And of course, Team Black has been a mess as we talked about in this podcast. So team Green in the lead, but only on paper.

Tbd.

Yeah, TBD. Okay, quickly before we go, let's see where we stand on our Bingo cards.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. Let's see, what do we have this time around? No dragon death, no foot stuff. Oh, mistaken identity. Nice.

I mean, bingo. We got it.

All right, folks, that is it for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night, right after episode 3 airs on HBO and Max.

If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me @netw3rk on X and Instagram.

You can find me at Greta M. Johnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. The podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion.

Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabriele Lewis, Jayanne Berry, and Barry Finkl. Our lead engineer is Hannah Brown, and Hannah has also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira.

Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact checking by Melissa Ocico-Slater. By Melissa Ocico-Slaater. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaater, and my delightful co-host, Jason Concepcion.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Seyvon Slater, and Erin Kelly from the Max podcast team.

Thanks for listening, and may the gods help us all.

I will not be seen as weak.

You're already seen as weak, Egon.