Rhaenera's supporters will believe what they wish, and so will Eagons. The war will be fought, many will die, and the victor will eventually ascend the Throne. The significance of Viserat's intentions died with him.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Greta Johnson.

And I am Jason Concepcion. Dragon Warfare has come to Westeros, and it's not pretty.

Honestly, it is even more brutal than I thought it would be, but we are going to get into it and unpack the entire epic fourth episode of Season 2 titled The Red Dragon and the Gold. It was written by Ryan Condal and directed by Alan Taylor.

And later in the show, we'll talk with Director Alan Taylor about the drama of this episode and that epic battle of Rook's Rest.

Plus, we get a chance to speak with Eve Best, who plays our favorite, Reynice, the Queen That Never Was, but who always will be queen in our hearts. You don't want to miss that. As always, there are some spoilers ahead, really big spoilers for this really big episode, so definitely make sure you watch episode four and then come back to us.

We do not know the Queen's doings, but we must trust that she seeks the same as each of us at this table, an end to this conflict.

Okay, Jason, lots to discuss. We're going to get into the nitty-gritty, but first, will you give us just a quick recap of the episode?

Yeah. Damon is at Heron Hall, where the weird dreams continue. Reniera has been missing from the deliberations yet again, with Renice trying to hold it down now in her absence. Allison is spiraling in King's after her conversation with Reniera, and she's been looking through the history books trying to track down some information about the Song of Ice and Fire, and she's having conversations with Grandmaister or Weil and also Lara Strong. Kristen Cole and his army are marching on Rook's Rest, which Egan is very upset about because he'd prefer they go to Harrenhal. Egan is being bullied by Amund. He really wants to go out on Sunfire and join the fight. After much drinking and some deep thinking about it, decides, yes, I will do that. When Rhaenri comes back to Dragonstone, they all agree they need to send a dragon to meet the threat of the Green Army and Kristen Cole, and they decide to send Rhaenis, their most experienced dragon rider, and Melis, their largest dragon. Then we get to the battle of Rook's Rest, the big battle at the end of the episode. King shows up, and quite interestingly, Amund lets him fly over and get into the action.

Let's the King get a couple of licks in. Maelis and Radies absolutely body the King and Sunfire, and then Vágar strikes. He lights up not only Rhaedis, but also his very own brother, King Agon. Did he do this on purpose? Did he flame Agon on purpose? Maybe, possibly. Either way, Agon and Sunfire crash to the ground, and Rhaedis and Maelis are able to fly away for the moment, that is. Rhaedis handles the shelf quite well, sends Vágar and Eamonn tumbling to the ground, and now Rhaenys really should leave, but she turns back to see how the battle is unfolding, to do her duty. As she is turning back out to see, Vágar ambulishes her, and It's RIP for Maelis and Rhaenys. Very sadly, the pair go tumbling into the walls of Rook's Rest, and the episode ends with Cole finding Amand near Agon's mortially wounded dragon, his sword out, seemingly about to finish off the king, and we end there. What is the status of the king? What is the status of the war? Is Cole happy with this plan that he is uncorked with Amand? Is Amund happy with what has occurred? We will wait to find out in episode 5.

What an episode. Oh, my God.

I'm so stressed out even just hearing you describe it. It's just like, there's a lot to discuss.

Let's open a big flagon of wine and pour it out for the queen that never was.

Rest in power, Reinds.

She could have been queen. It didn't happen.

But- She was the queen in my heart, Jason.

I agree. What have we lost? What is the show lost and what have we lost?

I mean, well, we've talked about this. I think one of the best relationships that we've in this show is between Rainier and Coralis. I think there was so much potential, too, for Rainier to really be able to be a mentor and guide for Rainier. I feel like we were just getting there. It's amazing that she went out and fought on Rainier's behalf the way she did. But it's a huge loss for everybody.

Yeah, it's a huge loss from the perspective of the ongoing war. You lose a battle-tested dragon, you lose a battle-tested warrior, you lose a voice of reason and authority authority that's really needed now with the Black leadership fractured, with Reniera just getting her sea legs, and Damon, Aewal. It really needed Renies in a couple of those small council meetings to settle things down. I think you lose a tie to history. I think Coralis loses a partner, to your point. You think about all the times that Renies has been that counsel for Coralis to get him to- Do the right thing. Do the right thing, for lack of a better term. You have to wonder, how is he going to react? Is he going to be as effective as he has been now with Rhaenies' losses?

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, Rhaenies is a bad bitch, and it's always sad to see a bad bitch go. Were you surprised to lose Rhaenies at this point in the story? That's a really good question. I think I will say yes and no. I mean, This season, the tension has been escalating so intensely with every episode, right? So it's like I knew there would be major losses, especially going into a dragon battle. But I mean, I think she's probably the last person I would want to see die. So I'm definitely super bummed about it, but I do get it from a narrative point of view, I guess I would say.

Let's start with this epic battle of Rook's Rest. Your thoughts?

Oh, my God. I mean, we keep using the word epic, but it feels very apt in this context. I kept finding myself wincing on behalf of the Dragons, which was really funny because I know they're not real, but they're so realistically depicted that I felt for them so deeply. I also thought, and we've gotten some hints of this initially in this season where you see Dragons flying overhead and the people on the ground are terrified and they scatter. You see even the chaos of just a dragon landing under normal circumstances. Game of Thrones has always been really good about depicting the intense chaos of battle. But I think with the dragons included, it was just completely chaotic and thrilling and horrific.

It was truly, truly horrific. I think seeing the scale of the Dragons, it shows doing such a great job at really conveying the scale. There's that shot of Vágar finally rousing, and you just see the huge wings over the tree line, and then you see the shocked face of the defenders of Rook's Rest. It is just amazing to behold. It also makes you feel for those of soldiers who... Oh, my God. It also makes me think that desertion must be an incredible problem. I was very, very impressed that the levies answered Colson Cole's call when he said, Hey, your king is here. Line up. We're going in. That's your king on the dragon overhead. He is with you. Let's do it. Let's march on the walls. I was like, Wow. Incredible courage displayed by them because I don't know how they can find the strength to do it. I would be terrified.

I thought Cole did a pretty good job of turning that around, though, because you can very clearly tell that he's like, Oh, shit, this was not part of the plan. I don't know what to do. And So to reframe it as to be like, This is so important to the king that he's showing up to support you. Let's go, is a pretty good reframing of it anyway.

I agree. I think in general, I think Cole has done a good job, shockingly. I mean, he has reframed the role of Hand of the King into a more martial one, which I think suits him quite well. But in that vein, is doing a great job, is doing the thing that the king wants, which is wage the war, and he's doing it in a smart way. I was begrudgingly impressed with Kristen Cole, despite the fact that his plan did not work the way he thought it would.

Right. Yeah. I mean, he didn't go up to those soldiers and say, Well, shit, the king's drunk up there, I bet, and I don't know what's about to happen. Good luck to you.

Drinking and flying. No. Don't do it. No. I know it's early, quick reaction, but do you have a sense of who won this thing?

I mean, I would guess Green's.

Because of the loss of Melisa and Raini's?

Yes, that's such a huge loss. I'm also just personally devastated, I have to say, Renis, having been my favorite character. But yeah, I think. I mean, Team Green took some major losses, obviously. There's the egg on of it all. There are a lot of questions about what happened there. Aamond seemingly trying to kill his own brother, not a good thing. And we don't even know if Egon is still alive, which cannot be good for Team Green. But what do you think? Who do you think one?

I think of it as maybe a slight Black victory, but devastating for both sides. You have to imagine that this will take some of the wind out of the greenside sails to have the king injured like this. I suppose Otto could probably frame it as the courage of King Egan. He was with his troops and they suffered grievously to defend the realm alongside his troops. But I think this is a This is a tough one for both sides, but I think the Greens have suffered a pointed loss.

Yeah, no, that is a very good point.

We don't yet know Egan's fate, but at the end, when Amund has his sword unsheathed, it certainly looks to me as if he's thinking about finishing off his brother, the King. What do you think was happening here?

It certainly seemed that way. He could argue it was a mercy killing at that point. I mean, if Egan's visibly charred and in a lot of pain, taking him out of that misery is something, I suppose.

Yeah, I guess that... I don't know that that would fly, but I think it's a pretty good, you might try and run with that one. He was in pain.

Yeah.

I was actually really surprised at how disrespectful Amand was in the small council meeting ahead of this. Then I don't think it'll escape Cole's notice, certainly that Aamond didn't show up at the signal, waited for the king to get beat up a little bit before showing up and then shot a blast of flame at the king. I think people will notice that.

Oh, yeah. I mean, especially Cole. I feel like he should have known better than to be scheming with Aamond behind Aagon's back anyway. But yes, I'm very curious to see how that dynamic plays out between the three of them because it's pretty messy at this point.

The moment where Amand in high Valyrian is just pressing His brother is so funny. I weirdly just felt terrible for Egon. If I'm him, I go, Listen, I don't need to be out there, but let me know what's going on so I can learn how to better run this realm. Yes.

Well, I think even just symbolically, the fact that he can't even speak Hyvalerian for shit.

That was so funny.

He says, I can have to make a war. That's the most of a sentence he can string together in Hyvalerian.

Very, very bad. Meanwhile, Alicent is really spiraling. You can tell what Reniera told her at their secret summit, seems to be working on her mind. Let's play a clip.

You've ever been a practical man I'm an honorable servant to the Crown, and you serve my lord husband in his darkest hours.

Such was my duty, your Grace.

Tell me, do you believe Viserus wanted Egon to succeed him? I could not No.

His Grace never raised the matter with me.

I mean, Orwell is never going to answer that question truthfully.

No, that's the way you answer that question in that context. I also think it's pretty inappropriate that she even asked it, don't you?

I mean, I I agree. I got the sense that she knew that he wouldn't tell her, but that he could tell her his hesitance and the way he would answer falsely would tell her what she needed to know. I think that He sincerely would probably say, No, I don't think that. But the fact that he said, I don't know, I think told her that actually maybe Rineera is right about what she told me.

It also just seems to me that her expressing that doubt, having these questions, is something she needs to keep extremely close to her. Oh, yeah.

I mean, dangerous.

Yes. Incredibly dangerous for her. Yes. I mean, the fact that she's even asking these questions is treasiness.

Greta, what do you think Alicent is looking for specifically in the history books?

I assume it's some way to be able to either confirm or deny the Song of Ice and Fire and whether that prophecy is real. Don't you think?

I think that that's what it is as well. I think Reniera, she didn't give her a lot of detail, but she did say the Song of Ice and Fire was something Viserus was very concerned about over the course of his life. I think Allison is just trying to figure out what that thing is. What is that? Wait, I was married to him for years, and I never heard him mention this. So what is that thing? I think that is what is really at her, that she's never heard of this. But there's something about the way Reneera conveyed it to her that clearly rings true. Speaking of Egon getting dressed down by members of his family, Let's play his mom calling him to the carpet.

I loved this.

I ruled in your father's absence throughout his long illness, and Otto Hightell was as cunning as statesmen as ever lived. You should humbly be seeking our opinions and counsel. You have no idea the sacrifices that were made to put you on that throne. What would you have me do, mother? Do simply what is needed of you. Nothing.

Nothing.

Oh my God, I love that so much.

I love how fed up she is. Like the weary, what is it?

What do you want? Seriously, dude. I will say, I do feel like this conversation is long overdue, no?

Yeah, it's long overdue. I think it's long overdue. I also think you get the frustration of it. Again, it has been an action-packed few weeks, lots happening. But yeah, this should have happened earlier. Not only that, but you get the feeling that, listen, Egan is king. That doesn't mean he is just in control, but It's not nothing. He has a dragon, and I think you have to make him feel involved even if he isn't. You've got to give him a fidget spinner or something, like something that makes him feel like he's doing something. Some busy work, yeah. You can't just be like, Shut up and listen. It's not going to be enough, and it's not enough at this point. But I think it's good of Allison to try and communicate to him that the people around you know what they're doing, and they've been doing this time.

Absolutely. Well, I think, too, yes, it's ridiculous to assume that you know everything about everything at this point. The best thing you can do is surround yourself by smart people and see what they have to say about stuff. But also, most of the smart people are pretty sick of his bullshit at this point, too.

Very, very true. To be fair to Egan, he's been doing the thing that I think any sovereign in his position would do, which is he's been appointing people that he feels like he can trust, Chris Cole, although that's been less the situation than he thought it would be, where Christopher really seems like he has a closer relationship with his brother, and that's becoming clear. He appointed several of his buddies to the Kings Guard. At the same time, I think as that conversation with Eamonn showed, where Eamonn was like, Oh, yeah, you've been busy. You've been busy naming your friends the Kings Guard and giving yourself nicknames, that hasn't been cutting it at all. People people have humored him in those things, hoping that that would keep him busy. But clearly, it's not keeping him busy enough.

Let's listen to that moment in a small council that is in English between Egan and Eamonn.

No. Have him turn about. I want Harrenhal back. Cole is already preparing his attack. How do you know this? He sent a word to me.

To you?

The two of you have been plotting without my authority.

I think what really stood out to me in that scene was how well Tom Glencarny played it, right? I mean, Egan is both unhinged, the way he's like, hair and haul, hair and haul. But then you hear how hurt and angry he is when he realizes that they've been talking behind his back. I thought that was just so excellently done.

It also shows how not ready Egan is for the levers of power. If you want them to turn around, send a Raven right now by your hand. Take a letter. Here, write this down. Lord Commander of the Kings, God, Christopher Cole, turn around and attack Harrenhal. Just send the message. You don't have to go through your brother. I found that part of it interesting, too. Egon seemingly has no idea actually how to affect his will through the mechanisms of the kingdom other than, Well, let me just get on my dragon and fly off. That's, I guess, the best way to do it. You can actually decree things and put it out there so that people understand this is the word of the king. But he doesn't do that. I found myself feeling bad for Agon. What about you?

Partly, it's interesting because we're both expressing that we have frustrations with the fact that he doesn't really know how to be king, but in truth, no one taught him either because it wasn't assumed that he ever actually would be which is so complicated.

Well, I mean, Otto has been plotting this whole time to make him king since he was a child. You would think that they would have done better. Now, maybe, I think you could argue, and I think this is probably what happened, is the fact that the people very, very, very close to him were telling, You're going to be king one day. You're going to be king one day. That gassed up his self-confidence and his own image of himself to the point where the reality of the job is a completely foreign country to him. But yeah, the people who should be helping him are not helping him enough. They're just trying to insulate him from doing anything that might muck up the war effort while they do stuff. This can't go on forever, although now the current state of the king, I think the king will be bypassed in many decisions going forward. Oh, good Lord. After what has happened at Rook's Rest.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, should we switch over to team Black and talk through? Yeah, let's do it. I mean, it's such a packed episode.

It really is.

Okay, so let's start with Rhaenies, who has an interesting conversation with Corlis that you hinted at earlier on, too.

I just had a word with your captain's. He was the sailor who plucked you from your watery grave. Yes. You I did not think to mention it.

I did not think it relevant.

I know who he is, Corlis. Alan's past is no fault of his. He saved his Lord's life. He should be raised up and on and not hidden beneath the tides.

Is this why you came?

To subject me to an inquisition?

I came to tell you that Baylor has called me to Dragon Stone.

Baylor?

That council is going to dine on her and Jace for supper. They grow restless in Wnera's absence.

Where has that woman gone?

I suspect to try and draw us all back from the abyss.

Such a great moment for so many reasons.

Number one is we get some confirmation, I think, that Alan is Coralus his natural son, his child from another woman. I think super magnanimus of Reynies to be like, Don't hide this kid. Why are you? Don't Don't hide him from the world. He did a great thing. You should honor him. People know who he is, certainly. But that doesn't mean that you should push him to the periphery. I think we're going to be seeing Alan more directly involved in affairs from here on out, certainly.

Yes, I thought that was a very interesting and telling moment. I think another really interesting piece of that conversation was the fact that, where the hell is Rhaenera? She was so fast to get to King's Landing. What's the deal with that, Jason?

It was harder to get out, I guess, than it was to get in. I guess. But this is where you really wish that Rhaenice was the queen's hand or that the queen actually had a hand, someone that could know what had gone on because you're running the risk with only Rhaenis knowing about this secret mission that the queen could just disappear. She could just be killed by anyone or imprisoned in something, and the war would just be over, and no one would know what happened. Playing with fire, I think.

Where have you been these last days? You've vanished without so much as a word. I apologize for my absence in my secrecy, but such was necessary. I went to King's Landing. To what possible end? To meet Queen Alicent and sue for peace. You saw Alicent? Yes, I did. You could have been taken or slaved. I inherited 80 years of peace from my father. Before Before I was to end it, I needed to know that there was no other path.

What do you think the reaction to that is going to be? Because really, they don't have time for a longer conversation about it, but it is a crazy thing that Reniera did.

I think it's a crazy thing that Reniera did it. I think it's also crazy that she told them. I was surprised by that. I figured she would keep that on the down low in case there are future conversations to be had.

Yeah, I think it speaks to what a dead end she feels like that was. She basically says, Okay, I owed it to the legacy of my father and the decades of peace that he fostered to do everything I can to see if I can save that piece, but I can't. Now I feel like it's going to be... The team Black is going to be flying the Dragons. You have to feel like it's going to very active from here on out. I mean, she has very little political capital left with her council. They're getting their thoughts whooped. They've lost a dragon now. They need that army. I feel like the only thing that they have to influence the war is these dragons? So I would expect the dragons to really start flying now.

Absolutely. Another thing I thought was really interesting reflecting on how Alicent and Reniera both are behaving now after this conversation that had is like, Reniera seems so certain. She has so much resolution, and Alicent seems so confused and uncertain. That's a great point. Which I just thought was a really fascinating dichotomy between the two.

Yeah, it's a great point.

So, yeah, do you think Rhaeneera made the right call sending Dragons?

Yes. Yeah. I think that it was a trap laid for her and her Dragons. That said, I think she had She had reached the point where the people who were supporting her were really wavering, had already pitched, Hey, why don't you leave? Why don't you leave the war? And we'll do it. I think whether or not you agree that Team Black was doing nothing, air quotes, that was the perception. The perception had become reality. I think if you allowed the home castle of one of your council members to get knocked off and just sit there, you're going to lose without ever fighting. So I think she had to. What do you think?

I agree. I also thought that pre-battle montage that we got where, as you had mentioned, Rhaenera tells Jace about the prophecy was really interesting because it really does frame Rhaenera's reasoning as not just being about her wanting the throne, but a much bigger story that is happening and that needs to happen. Let's listen to that.

The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. That is why I must believe what Viseras told me when he named me his heir, what Jahares had told him, and what I will now tell you. What is it? Egon, the Conqueror's Dream. He called it The Song of Ice and Fire.

Chilled. Chilled.

It's so phenomenal.

I continue to be fascinated with the potential ways this prophecy could be influencing events in the background. You wonder, as this story unfolds, what will people who have this information on either side do to avert potential disaster?

Yeah, it's fascinating. I'm really excited to see, too.

Let's finish with some good confusing twisted fun. Our friend Damon, who's having many a sleepless night at Harrenhal. Things are very tough for my guy Damon at Harrenhal. He is having terrible dreams. He, again, does not know if he's awake, does not know if he's asleep, has no idea if he's dreaming, is hearing things, is talking to people. Are they there? What is going on? Through all of this, he meets for actually the real first time. He found himself standing in front of the weirwood tree with Alice Rivers. But this is the first time he's had a conversation with her after following an apparition of himself to her kitchen. Let's listen to this clip.

Have you experienced anything of note? You are a strange woman.

I'm no woman at all.

I'm a barn owl, cursed to live in human form.

So you've come here after quattling with your wife. What? You arrive here alone to claim the castle and yet send no ravens.

Do you now plan to make your own claim? Perhaps to prove yourself to-Do not try me with your incidence, witch.

It's a hard thing, I imagine, to give obesions to one who replaced you as heir.

And a woman, too, a girl child you bounced on your knee. I mean, does it please you that her legitimacy is contested as you stand here with a castle and a dragon attempting to draw an army of men.

Here, drink this.

You'll need your sleep if you're to win this place to your sight.

So good. It's so weird. I love her.

What do you make of her analysis of Damon? I mean, I think it's pretty close to the bone, at least it appears to be. Is she right?

I think so. I think it's especially interesting given the fact that she's never met him before. How she's picking up on all of that is very intriguing indeed. What do you think?

I think that it's almost I don't think that Damon actually wants the throne. Oh, true. I think it certainly appears like that to everyone around him. But I think that what's motivating him right now is I think he feels really bad that he- Yes. Sparked this whole thing and really hurt Reniera's chances with the horrific assassination of Prince Jairas. I think he thinks of it as his I think he's trying to fix it in his way. I'm going to fly off to Heron Hall by myself. I'm going to take it and I'm going to win the war and I'm going to fix it. I think that's what he's trying to do. I think he's doing a very confused and poor job of it. But I think that he did take the castle to his credit and may indeed assemble an army of disgruntled Blackwoods. But I If he even had those conversations, I don't even know if Steven understands if he was having those conversations. But I think that's what he's doing. I think it's to all appearances, I would understand that people think, Oh, he's angling for the Crown. And even the way he styles himself as your Grace would suggest that.

But I think what the dreams tell us is he actually feels terrible about what he's done to Reniera and her chances.

Yes, I think you are absolutely correct. I I think he is jealous of Reniera. I think he is jealous, yes. But as we've discussed, and I think Alice is correct about that, but I think you're right that it's not because he wants to be king. It's more because his bro loved her more than him. Which is what she says to him in that dream, right? Yeah.

I think you're exactly right. I think he thinks that that's true, that his beloved brother, the person he loved more than any other person who he just wanted to be close to and be in the mix with, loved his niece, the king's daughter, more than he loved his brother. I think that really irks Damon, and it really hurts him. At the same time, I think he feels that his brother's entire wish was that Runeera would succeed him and that it was him, Damon, who effed that up. Yeah, is just desperately trying to fix it. What do you make of Alice? We should talk about Alice. What do you make of Alice?

Oh, I think she's delightful. She's such a welcome change in tone and texture to the show, too, I think.

Clearly, much more than meets the eye because whatever is going on at Heron Hall, whatever energies are coursing through the place, either the Riverlands is very mysterious in general. There's a big lake nearby, Harrenhal, called the God's Eye, that has an island on it that is covered in werewoods that supposedly the children of the forest still live there. Nobody goes out to that island. The entire region is very mysterious. Alice feels very plugged into that energy, the way she was like, Oh, the previous maester fled. Just casually mentioned that she fled in the night, couldn't get the hang of the place. But she seems to really have the hang of it. I'm fascinating to know what That entails clearly much more than meets the eye with her.

For sure. I also just love the Old God vibes. That's something I always really loved about Game of Thrones, too. It's fun to see that coming back up.

Me too. I can't wait to see what more we get of Alice Rivers.

Well, there is no better person to talk to for this episode than the Eve Best, who plays Rainis. We got to talk to her. Here she is. We are We're so excited to welcome Eve Best, who plays Rainis, to the podcast. She is joining us from a beautiful remote village in Europe, which feels very fitting for Rainis. Eve, thank you so much for being here.

My pleasure.

We are devastated to lose Rhaenies. We've talked at length on this podcast about how she's our favorite character in the story. What was your reaction when you learned about Renice's fate?

I was pretty devastated, too, actually. I I knew that it was coming. We always knew that the end was in sight. Plus, it's the nature of the job. You know that if you're signing up for part of the Game of Thrones franchise, that the likelihood is that you're going to have a sticky end at some point. Actually, when we did the read-through of Season 2, we were given the scripts a few days before, and I didn't read them deliberately because I thought, I just want to respond to it in the moment without any prep or judgment, which was a bit scary. It really hit me when it happened. It was devastating. I felt like, no. Objectively, they're just losing their best guy, their best- Yes. Their best chest piece. Obviously. And plus, just such a magnificent person, woman, role model. I mean, look, they're amazing shoes to try and fill. And so, yeah, agony to see her go down. Felt a little bit like The Last Samurai, that amazing movie. And it felt a little bit like that when you're just watching this great noble character and her dragon and the beast going down. Yeah, it was sad.

It is sad. I think it's funny. I hope you don't mind my use of language, but the phrase I keep thinking of when I think about Reynice's bad bitch.

Yeah, absolutely. She's an enlightened badass. Yes. That's the thing that I love about her, that in spite of the fact that she's rises above everything with such incredible grace and style. She's also just no holds barred, cool as fuck. Yes.

I couldn't I've said it better myself, Eve.

Speaking of the badassness, she goes out in an incredible display of martial prowess with her dragon, Maelis, voice. Tell us about filming that battle scene.

I felt very ill-equipped to be doing. It was physically quite demanding. Then I remember talking Andy Ewen, actually.

Ewen Mitchell, who plays Amand.

Yes, who's all over the stunts, and he's this young guy, and he's doing these amazing stunt things. He absolutely loves being on the dragon. I remember when we They jumped into each other at the end of season one, and he'd just done his first time on the buck. He was sitting just outside his trailer going, Oh, you're about to go on the buck, are you? It's life-changing, man. I felt a little bit nervous. I thought, Okay, so I'm not quite sure about all of this. Then I remember when we were filming that first sequence in season one when she combusts through the floor. Greg, the director, was yelling through a microphone because there's so much noise and there's the sound of the buck and there's all the wind blasting in your face. It's very hard to hear. It's very hard to see. It's very hard to do anything, actually. You're just clinging on for dear life. People are yelling things at you like, Come on, you've got to swerve more like you're on a motorbike. I was like, I was still clinging on to, I've never been on a motorbike. That means nothing to me.

I don't have that frame of reference. I'm really sorry. So I felt very... Yes, physically, I was perhaps not not in my comfort zone, shall we say. And then I knew we had this epic battle scene to shoot. It was two weeks of just me on this book. And I kept asking for more cushions because my bum was getting sore. Oh, my gosh. It was quite intense, but it's very far removed from what the end result is. It's very surreal. Wheel process. I bet.

When you say the buck, does it move on its own?

Yeah, it's amazing. It's like this amazing electric. It's like I've never been on a Bucking Bronco. I'm the opposite of Rainier. I've never been on a roller coaster. I'm far too scared.

I understand. I'm a ferris wheel person. I get it.

I just been terrified. But yes, it moves a bit. I've been told it is similar to a Bucking Bronco that it moves about. Because of this particular sequence that had to be so epic and complicated with the dragons spinning and all of that, there were a lot of moves and complicated things. They needed to make it look as though the We were in this tail spin when the two dragons locked together and it needs to look like she's hanging upside down. They needed to simulate that. They organized a turn that was like a 180-degree turn. It I was started like that and then spun all the way around. Oh, my gosh. No. And I tell you what, I mean, my God, it was a good workout for the thighs. I bet. I mean, pilates, eat your heart out.

You need some Dramamine for that, too. The It was like an ocean sickness.

My thighs had gone home.

Have you considered... I feel like you would be very good at a Bucking Bronco now.

Well, now I feel like, God, I would just take it in my stride. You're ready. And I'm also... I feel like I'm now Stuntastic. I feel like, come on. Stuntastic. Emma Peel, eat your heart out.

I feel like in this episode, there are a number of moments for which to be extra proud of Rainis, but I wonder if There is one in particular where you found yourself thinking like, Yeah, that's my girl.

I mean, I think it's that moment when she steps forward and she says, You must send me. She's just looking after everybody in the room. She's looking after It's her last piece of wisdom for Reneera. We'd reach the point of no return, and somebody had to plunge in and somebody had to press the red button and start the nuclear war, effectively. You had Jay popping his head above, too far above the power of it. Reneera wanting to do the right thing, but not really having the experience. It became like her final piece of wisdom, like her final gift to Reneera, which is, this is how you are a good leader. This is your way forward. This is the best way. This is how you rule, and this is leadership. You don't go in yourself. You send in your best soldier who was her, even though she knows that this is, A, a very likely Kamikaze mission, and B, she, of all of them, knows the weight of that moment, of that decision, of that line that she's about to cross, and to have the balls and the grace and the goodness to stand up and do it while making it seem like it was just an effortless moment of nothing without any indulgence.

I thought, Yeah, blimey, you're cool.

Bad bitch, I'm saying.

We've talked a lot on this part about how Raini's in and Coralice have the best relationship in the show, in our opinion. They're such- Arguably in the franchise. Arguably in the franchise. It's an incredible partnership. They're such active supporters and promoters of each other. At the same time, we discover in this season that Rainies is aware of Courtless's infidelity. What was their relationship like at at the end?

Oh, gosh. I think that was just so hard because he'd always been her rock. Through the whole of season one, in spite of everything that was thrown at her and then, ultimately, They were a team and they were supporting each other. He felt like absolutely solid ground. Actually, I live in an earthquake zone, having experienced earthquakes, great and small. It's very shocking. It's the most terrifying thing, really, feeling that security of the Earth suddenly not secure. I think that's what she was Felt so much what she was going through this season was feeling that solid ground of him, just the cracks. As always, even though her heart is breaking, she's again admonishing him for not acknowledging his child and for not doing the right thing by his child, even though it's a sword in her heart to do so because it's so much pain because this child represents his as she imagines, love for another woman, or at least, connection with another woman. Not easily done. As with everything, the choice to side with her near it, that's not a pleasurable or easy decision at all. But it's the right thing to do. That's her MO, endlessly, is to put the personal aside and operate from the bigger picture always.

It makes me think, too, about Rhaenies' decision to support Rhaenera, especially in the wake of that very telling scene early on in Season 1 when Rhaenies and Rhaenera are talking to each other and Rhaenice says the realm will never accept a woman as ruler. Yeah. How What do you think Raine Nies then is navigating that decision? I mean, it almost seems like in that instance, it is personal because she's saying, Sure, I don't know what the realm is going to do, but I know the right thing is to support this person.

Yes, I completely, well, I completely agree with you that she's deeply reluctant to side with Raine Niera on the personal level, because first of all, there's never been the conversation in which Reneera has said, Oh, by the way, your son's still alive. I think that's sitting between them always as the unspoken white elephant between them. I think on a personal level, she does not trust this person at all, and I don't think she likes her very much. However, that being said, in the context of their conversation in Season 1, just so significant. First of all, I think she sees a lot of herself and her own story being reenacted in Runeera's journey. The feeling that is strongest is not again on my watch, shall this story be repeated? And that is what is most important above all, putting aside personal differences, resentments, past histories, confusions, mistakes, and dislikes. All of that aside, the bigger picture is, not again will a woman, and clearly the best candidate for the job of ruling, be ignored and sidelined and passed over, and attention must be paid, and respect must be paid. I mean, my God, those scenes in the council.

It's like, you've got to pay some respect and stop ignoring her, stop patronizing her, me, us, and pay attention.

Very cross-making. I can tell.

Eve, It has been such a delight to talk to you. You are wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing some insights into a great character.

Thank you. It's been really nice to meet you both.

What an awesome conversation with Eve.

Yes, just the best.

I loved hearing about the buck. I know.

I do love the idea of riding a roller coaster with her, something I'm not really into either, but I would with her.

Well, this is a very wild way to mark the halfway point of the season. Now we get to talk more about it with the director of this incredible episode, Alan Taylor, who also directed, as I'm sure many people know, many pivotal episodes of the Game of Thrones television program. Let's go listen to our interview with him. Thanks so much for being here, Alan.

It's my pleasure. It's great to meet you guys. I've been listening to you, and now I get to meet you.

That's awesome. Alan, obviously, this is a hugely epic episode. It is by far the biggest battle that we have seen so far in these seasons of House of the Dragon. What was your reaction like when you first saw the script and realized the scope of it?

Well, it was such a funny process. I'm not sure you have interest in the entire long long story that got me there. But when we began the season, like you said, I looked at the scripts and I have a long, happy history of murdering people that are beloved. As a director It's partly a... It's a self-serving thing because you know that when you kill the hero, people will be interested and you'll get some attention. I got to chop off Ned Stork's head. I got to kill Caesar in Rome. I killed Wild Bill Hiccup in Dead I killed Christopher Maltesanitian Sopranos, and each one of those was a real joy. I did want to hear the resume for sure. When I read this one and realized, and I'm allowed to spoil her about this, though, right? When I saw that Mellies was going to go down and take Mellies with her, that was really moving to me. That storyline became clearly the most important thing in the in the episode. That was what really drew me in.

When you look at that script and you see the action and you're drawing on your experience and doing these kinds of big episodes before, what is the first action item that leaps to mind? I've got to start doing this.

Well, again, this was a really interesting one, partly because of where it comes in the season, halfway through, and partly because we refer to it as a battle, and it's the Battle of Wilts Rest. But as I read it, the funny thing was there isn't really a battle. You got a huge army approaching an undermanned but very small keep. You know no one's going to come out of the keep because that would be stupid. The siege gets interrupted by the arrival of the Dragons, where what's happening on the ground becomes less and less relevant to the battle in the air. In fact, we refer to it as a battle, but it's a battle interruptus. In a way, one of the challenges became, how do you keep the momentum going? How do you keep the dynamism going when in fact, there isn't a real clash of hand-to-hand forces on the ground. I remember looking at the script and realizing that I think the writers realized that that was an issue or a challenge. There were sometimes when they were saying, And they're fighting, it continues. And you're like, Well, wait a second. No one's actually... It became a sleight of hand of setting it up and then having the arrival of the dragon take that energy.

It was very key for me to have the dragon violence interact with the ground and interact with the troops for a bunch of reasons, partly because that's where the battle is happening. But also, I learned that to make the dragons real and grounded, you have to constantly interact with them so they don't just become things in the sky. That was the challenge was, yes, it's a battle, but in fact, it turns into something else.

That makes sense. I love how much you have waved your arms.

It's perfect. It's not a very useful thing in an audio podcast. It doesn't really help me.

It makes sense.

You mentioned killing Ned Stark. Obviously, you have a lot of experience in the Game of Thrones world. I would love to hear what what you learned from that show that you brought to this and how House of the Dragon is different. I mean, obviously, there's the Dragons.

Right. It's funny. I think I felt comfortable coming in because it felt like a return to Westeros in a established tone and language. So that felt good. The main difference, I think, as I got to know the show was the female point of view of the feminine experience was huge in this show and foregrounded in the show in a way that it wasn't really in the original show, even though that show had very powerful, complex female characters. Overall, I think people responded to it as a very male vision, male defined. This show very directly presented itself in opposition to that. The female perspective on violence and the escalation of violence is always foregrounded. I think there was an adjustment on my part to catching up to that approach to things. It's not that hard to do because you got two amazing actors playing Alicent and Rainiera that characterize that point of view. But it's everywhere. I think we have more women directing on this show than we did in the previous one, and I think it infuses everything.

The marque event, I think everyone would agree, of this episode is the dragon battle, the confrontation between Maelis and Sunfire and Vágar in turn. Tell us about making that. Tell us about creating that scene.

It was a case where sometimes you are led very precisely by the script, and other times you, like in gone with the wind, it said Atlanta burns, and it turned into a 20-minute sequence created by the director. I don't think I can claim quite that much input here. But there were many times when it said the dragon's fight, and it's really me a pad. We got to have the fund of structuring it. For a long time, we've been looting to the Dragon War as a crossing the line into nuclear warfare. They've served a long purpose as being peacekeepers in a way the way nuclear weapons are supposed to do, but now we're crossing a line. For me, there had to be a big moment in the battle where you felt the scale of that. A lot of different things happened. But if you watch the sequence, by far, this is the biggest impacting event is Vagar crashing to the ground. I started focusing on that, and we built a lot of things into it. One is the cleverness of Rhaenus in how to engage this giant beast. Almost no dragon in the realm can encounter Vagar and survive.

But we constructed a thing where she goes back deliberately. First of all, it's a choice. She could flee, but she doesn't. Second of all, she's doing something very smart, which is to engage him upside down. She's able to use her body weight and Maelus's body weight to basically bring him to the ground. When he hits the ground, it's our version of a nuclear blast, and it knocks everybody off their horses, and it wipes out battle formations. Most importantly, our point of view character, Cole, gets knocked out and misses what comes next. Once we realized how important that moment was in the sequence, we had a lot of fun structuring it. I work frequently with my partner, Jane Wu, who's a storyboard artist, and she and I were researching birds of prey and sending videos back and forth to each other. That's where we started coming across this recurring dynamic, which is really beautiful, where When a bird feels itself being approached by another bird, it turns upside down, engages talent to talent, and it becomes this chaotic spiral. To be quite honest, we're not sure if it's a battle move or a mating move, but maybe they're They have a lot in common.

But in our case, we use that as the centerpiece moment where we see how smart she is. She's tactically stronger than Amund is, so she knows how to do this thing, and she actually wins that round. But she wins the battle, but not the war. With that structure in mind, then everything else serves that. We had to make sure that when Agon crashes to the ground earlier, that it's not as big a deal, so we were building up to this crescendo moment. Then the moment that comes after that is where the emotion really plays when there's a sneak attack where she finishes her off. So it makes me just her going through and trying to create a story structure for the dragon's fight.

As you've mentioned, I mean, of course, these dragons also aren't just on their own, right? They're the humans riding them. And so much of the battle that we see is indicative of these characters. And and their personalities and how they approach something like a battle. I'd love to hear how you talked these sequences through with the actors who played Egon and Renis and Amund.

First of all, you're up in the air with a giant dragon, and you want to track the emotions of the person that's engaged with them and that you're investing. But also, even more challenging for the actor is you're not really on a dragon in the air. You're on some ridiculous blue screen stage with a bucking bronco thing in a computer-controlled camera. It's even It's even harder to maintain the reality and track the emotions. You're shooting things way out of sequence. Most of the dragon riding was shot towards the end of our season, far, far away from the actual location work we'd done. It was very important to talk through three beats, and the beats are very fragmented because you're just getting that little piece that you need each time. It was very helpful to have very complete storyboards and previs, which is the little cartoon movie you make of the sequence so that people watch and see what the moment is and how it connects to things around it.

Yeah, back when Antonia mentioned that when we had her on to talk about it. It's really interesting to think through how helpful that must have been.

Yeah, it's mostly generated for VFX people because they have to start getting a handle on what they have to build since their dragon building happens before we even start shootings. They have to create a map for themselves, and that becomes this cartoon-y, crude-looking, computer-generated previs thing. But that also ends up being very useful for everybody else. The director and the actors can refer to it to know exactly when this moment happens, and and what the key emotion for them is. I know some people seem to enjoy it. Ewen, who plays Amun, seems to get a kick out of it. He really throws himself into it. I was worried about Emily I'd heard did not have a great time, but she was amazing. I think it's partly she knew that this was a big deal for her character, but also some work had been done to make her armor less murderously painful to wear. But so she was great and gave it everything.

That is Emily Best, also as Eve Best, who, of course, plays Rhaenys.

The original plan seems to have been lure in one of team Black's Dragons. I'm sure they were hoping for Rhaenys, but Rainis would do just as well at Ambush it with Vágar and take it out. That seemed to be going swimmingly until Sunfire arrives, and then with Egon, a drunk Egon on its back. Eamonn calculation changes at that point. What is he thinking as he sees his brother fly over?

Yeah, I think the writers did some really great work providing some complex things there because as I recall, and people will yell at me if I'm wrong, but I think in the book, Sunfire and Vegar, which are working together from the beginning, I believe. That's correct. But this one has a lot more character reversals. It was fun that Cole and Eamonn had a plan that nobody else knew. It means that Cole gets to give orders that don't make any sense. Sir Gwaine has to say, Are you out of your mind? But because he knows he's got a nuclear weapon parked just out of view. So it was fun having that dynamic. Then when Malus arrives, and it's a disaster for Cole and his troops, but Cole is happy because this is exactly what he was waiting for. And then the tension when Váhgar doesn't arrive. I think we made a big deal out of Váhgar rising, Amen rising to engage in the battle and then seeing Sunfire and deciding to hold. And there's a few things going on there. One of them is anger at his brother for messing with things and getting involved and being an idiot, and a certain level of curiosity of, Well, what could happen?

This might get Amen on the throne really fast. But he does come in. He doesn't just sit out the whole thing. He does come in. Then the next question is, when he's throwing fire that first time, who is he really aiming at? I think there's a little bit of ambiguity about that. It's those character things that really enrich it, I think. There's a lot of tension there. When Tom, as Eagon, first sees his brother approaching, it's like, Hallelujah, here comes the big guy, and then this low dawning on this when he realizes this doesn't look good.

I'd love to talk more, too, about Rhaenys' decision to double back, which you mentioned briefly earlier on. I think that says so much about her character. We've never seen her in battle for, but it tracks. I'm curious how that piece came to be.

Yeah, I'm glad you're mentioning that because we've seen in Game of Thrones and earlier in this show, Dragons engaging and laying down fire and strafing people in It's awesome and it's cool, and we use flame throwers, and it's big and beautiful, but it's been done. When I read this scene, I realized that probably my favorite moment in the whole episode, the whole sequence, the whole battle, was her decision to return She's just abily engaged Sunfire, and now she's survived a first encounter with Vegar, and she could certainly leave with her pride intact. She did her bit, but the decision to turn, we really stretched it. We spent some time with her as she makes that decision. When Emily and I were working on it, it's a pride of battle thing. It's also this is her chance to make up for what she's always probably given herself a hard time for that she didn't say Dracaris when she had the to. Everyone's always given her a hard time with that. She's always been defensive about it, but I think at some level, she knows she has got something that she needs to finish. Then Vágar is the one that killed her at the end of season one.

Was it her grandson? Would that be what the relationship is? Yes.

I mean, not quite totally blood-related grandson, but we don't say that because it's true.

It gets complicated. I think it was also personal that she's not going to fly away from a chance to to lash out at Baygar and Eamonn, but she knows what she's lying into. I think she knows it's basically a suicide mission when she makes that turn, but she does it with such skill that she survives it. Then I think it's what's most touching me is there's actual hope in her eyes when she flies back over the battlefield and thinks, Okay, I think I may have gotten away with this. I think maybe I pulled it off.

Do you think it's how she would have wanted to die?

I don't think she wants to die, but I think certainly this would be a better way to die than many of the options that this world seems to offer its characters. That's fair. I think jumping ahead a little bit in the sequence, there's that moment when she knows it's over that we talked about a lot, too, when we were shooting it. It was always the way I visualized it with her arms opening up and giving herself over to it. That's personal because I had a near-death moment at one point in my life and came up against something that felt like acceptance. She and I talked about that and the fact that Melissa has died just now, just before her, it's as though they're going together.

So intense.

There's one guy whose name I wanted to call out since one of the most important things we did in the battle was creating this moment with this where she decides to turn back. I really wanted to amp it up, so we gave her this martial arts moment where she clicks on the next piece of equipment and belts herself in.

I love that moment.

It's what sets up. When she does that, we know she's up to something, and then she turns upside down, and we realize how good she is. But that was months of going back and forth. This guy named Jack Cornell, who worked in the props department, and he had to design that belt. More than that, he had designed it so it looked like a vendor the whole time, and also designed it in a way where it could give a yummy martial arts gesture where you can do a click You can have a strong gesture. That's amazing. He had to do a lot of versions, and I'm really grateful that it turned out and it seemed to work the way it did.

That's awesome.

You mentioned this a little bit, but I would love to talk more about the literal impact of the Dragons hitting the Earth. Because this is something... We've seen some small glimmers of that in episodes leading up to this one where a dragon will land on the beach and everyone has to scatter. You know that there is terror involved. But to actually see the way it plays out in this episode, especially from the point of view of Kristen Cole, is so astoundingly terrifying.

It's funny. We'd seen other dragons land hard. I like that landing on the beach. It was coming into a skitting stop. This was a dragon out of control hitting the ground and not quite as adept as a cat to land on his feet. It's also the biggest dragon in the realm. It's a much bigger deal when it hits the ground. Then it was serving as a metaphor for us for the first nuclear explosion, so we really wanted to do it up. There was stunt work with guys on pole wires being yanked and canons blasting debris and particles because we wanted this feeling of it hits and the Earth shakes and there's a blast wave that goes out, and that was the blast wave that takes out everybody around them. It's in that moment that you realize how irrelevant ground forces are now. It climax with Cole being blown off his horse. But the important thing for me was that he would be knocked out and that our point of view character would miss what came next and then would awaken to a transformed world when he rises. It's partly the devastation caused by that blast and the Death of the Dragon.

It's also the devastation of Cole's worldview because he's always been a night in shiny armor, or so he believes, and he's believed in the military code, and now he realizes that most of that is irrelevant in what's going to come.

If you were to look at either side and say, give them a take back on one particular terrible decision, what do you think? Let's go with the Blacks. Let's do with the Blacks since I feel like this is a draw or a loss for them.

Well, it's funny. I mean, my brain goes to not the rulers, but Damon probably thinks it was not the greatest idea in the world to send two doofuses into the castle to try and- That was rough. Eamonn, we know, has had self doubt about the killing at the end of season one. We saw that flash on his face beautifully in the end of that season. But since then, he's just hardened up and pretends like he doesn't care. But I think those two were the inciting events for everything. It was because two guys lashed out and couldn't quite control what happened once they'd unleashed. I hope they both lie awake at night staring at the ceiling. But they put a lot of their energy into denying that doubt.

We've talked about how complicated all of these characters are, but I still would love to demand that you pick a side. We've been asking everyone, but I am curious. Would you call yourself Team Green or Team Black?

It's funny. I managed to bat that question away three times, I think, on the red carpet when we were going into the premiere.

Welcome to the podcast.

What a testament to the great writing that you can't make a decision. In the course of making the season, I just fell head over heels in love with Tom's performance as Eagon. All the actors are amazing. But when I'd read Eagon's stuff on the page, I had no idea how heartbreaking and funny it was going to be. One of the concerns I came in to the show with was, this is great, but we had Thierryn, and we had other characters that had zingers, and we could make you laugh. Then when I started seeing how Tom was handling his character, I thought, okay, that's where a lot of our humor is coming from. The scene with him on the throne, I guess it's in episode one, where he's trying to weedle his way past Otto. It's so touching and pathetic. I wind up being on Team Green just because I want to hang out with him and his horrible personality.

That's super weird and really great answer. Well, Allen, thank you so much for joining us. It was really lovely to talk with you about this episode.

You, too. I knew it would be fun because I'd heard you guys before, and it was fun.

Okay, Jason, before we go, we got to do our weekly check-ins, which means first up, who do you think is winning after this week? Team Green or Team Black?

I think that I think Team Black is winning by a hair.

It seems like Team Green is much more in chaos, but they also still have a very large dragon who just keeps dominating. I would probably say Team Green by a dragon scale or something like that.

Let's talk about our fantasy draft, our pre-premier dragon fantasy draft, and how that is playing out. Well, first of all, an update. Great. Greta, your team has lost Sunfire, or at least Sunfire seems mortally wounded.

You're just going to rub it in, huh?

I tragically lost Rhaenys and Maelys. Yeah, brutal. Vágar, Victarius. Yeah. And so that's how things stand right now with the Dragon fantasy draft.

That's all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night, right after episode 5 airs on HBO and Max.

If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast, player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me at any tw3rk on X and Instagram.

You can find me at Greta M. Johnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion.

And Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabriele Lewis, J. N. Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannes Brown, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of Sound and Engineering is Raj Makija. Pineapple senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira.

Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact checking by Melissa Akiko Slawter. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Ocico-Slawter, and my co-host, Jason Concepcion.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstatt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Erin Kelly from the Max podcast team.

Thanks for listening. If this episode has taught us anything, it is, Don't Piss Off Anybody Who Has a Dragon.

You should have burned them when you had the chance.

Perhaps you can, Sir Alfred, when you next site them on your dragon.

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