If you are successful, well, when you are successful, what then? We march on King's Landing and take the throne.

The throne?

It's a big chair made of swords. Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion.

I'm Greta Johnson, and war in Westeros is feeling more inevitable than ever.

People in the Riverlands have picked sides, and it is getting ugly. Today, we're going to get into all of that as we unpack the third episode of Season 2 titled The Burning Mill, written by David Hancock and directed by Geeta Vasant-Patel.

Geeta will actually be joining us on the podcast today, which I am super excited for. We will also be talking with Bethany Antonia, who plays the wonderful Bayla Targarian.

But first, let's get into the episode. Yes, there are spoilers. We're going to be talking about everything that happens in episode three. You have been warned.

Allison is in King's landing. Her son sits my throne. There is nothing more to be said. Okay, Jason, you want to give us a quick recap? Of Season 2, Episode 3? Sure.

We go to the Riverlands, where the centuries-long feud between the Brackens, sworn to Egon, and the Blackwood, sworn to Reniera, reignites, resulting in thousands, it appears, of Deaths. On Dragon Stone, Rainees counsels Renier to move quickly to make peace, and she mentions a surprising possible ally, Alicent. In King's Landing, Christopher Cole is, I don't know, I think, shitting his pants a little First day on the job as Hand of the King. It seems like no one thinks he's up to it except maybe King Egon, and that includes Cole, who seems like he's quite anxious about the whole thing. Egon is thrilled at the news out of the Riverlands. He claims the Battle of the Burning Mill as a green victory, but now the region is in chaos and needs to be brought under control. Cole suggests riding out of King's Landing with their own force to take Heron Hall and the Riverlands. Serguéin-high Tower, Allison's high-handed brother, attaches himself to Cole's army. Christopher is annoyed at this, but what can he really do? He asks for Allison's favor, a. K. A. Her breast napkin, which she grants to him, and off they go. Egan recruits Laris to be his master of whispers while on Dragon Stone, Reniera gets closer to Messaria.

While most of her council is eager to send Dragons out to war, except Renisa, of course, because Renisa is level-headed, the Queen then decides to send her youngest children, Joffrey, Egan, and Viserus to Jane Aaron in the Vale in exchange for her support. They're bringing a dragon. She asks Reina to accompany them. Reina doesn't want to leave the fight but agrees, and she brings four dragon eggs with her to safeguard. Damon flies to Harrenhal alone in the pouring rain and seizes it for Team Black. That was easy. Plus, in Harrenhal, Damon has a strange dream or a vision or something, and he comes to and there's a mysterious woman telling him that he will die in this place. Great energy, good vibes. In the Riverlands, Bayla, aboard Moon Dancer, spots Cole and Sir Goane. She gives chase and maybe gets a little closer than Reniera would have liked, but then returns to Dragon Stone to report that the Greens are on the move. This is the thing that Reniera needs to finally, I guess, get into motion. She reads Allison's letter that was sent in the wake of Luke's death, and she finds that Allison was surprisingly remorseful at Luke's death.

Reniera, with Messaria's help, hatches a Heilmary plan to avert all-out war. She sneaks into King's Landing by boat, disguised as a septa, and proposes peace. Alicent is shocked, but eventually says, It's gone too far, it's too late. But Alicent is surprised to learn that the thing that she heard Viserice in his final moments about Egon, and the prince that was promised was a reference to Egon, the Conqueror, not her son.

We open with the Battle of the Burning Mill and the long-running feud between the Brackens and the Blackwoods, who are this world's Hatfields and the McCoy's.

Let's play the clip.

This is our land.

It's Brackenland. Babe killer. What did you say? Your false Queen Rhaneera is a kinslayer.

Your uncle declared for Agon, did he?

Well, then. And then we smashed cut to the results of the Battle of the Burning Mill, which looked like it went badly for both sides.

This was definitely one of those cold opens where I was like, Oh, I bet Jason knows a lot more about who these characters are than I am piecing together right now. But I have to say, in general, this was my favorite episode so far this season. And I think partly or maybe largely, that is because of the pacing of the storytelling in this episode. And I think this battle is a really great example of that because I there totally could have been a version of this where there were four episodes leading up of increasing ratcheted tension. Then we see the very gruesome battle, and it's half the season right there, as opposed to this cut where the devastation is there. We've seen what we need to see, and we're moving along with the story. I thought that was so well done.

I liked it as well. I liked it from a thematic point of view because while the leaders in King's Landing and on Dragon Stone are sending letters and making moves and trying to figure out where to place their forces and who will ally with them, it's already happened. The war has already started. With without them. So this whole thing is just a train wreck. It's out of control. And both sides now are trying to impose some measure of authority over a thing that's happened without them.

Yeah, I think, too, that idea of how do you navigate the aftermath of this stuff was very clearly, symbolically wrot, not only with that scene, but also with our next one, which is the Cargyle funeral. Rhaenera and Reynice have a very long a waited conversation. Let's hear it. Otto Hightauer would never have allowed this. Hotter blood has prevailed, I think. The young men have taken the bit in their teeth. They wish to punish, to avenge. Soon, they will not even remember what it was that began the war in the first place. But it's easy enough. They usurped my throne.

That is one answer. Or was it when the child was beheaded?

Or when Amund killed Luke? Or when Luke took Amund's eye? We teeter now at the point where none of it will matter.

Riny's speaking facts, and this was That's the best Rhaenies episode, my favorite character in this show, I think, and just someone that Rhañis needs to listen to. I think I almost want Rhañis to say to Rhañis, Okay, what is the version of this that you could live with? I understand. They took the throne. We get it. Egan sitting there. He shouldn't be there. Everybody did this behind your back. The lords were promised to you, and they switched their allegiances, and that's unfair. But how do we get out of this? Because they're there and they're not moving. So what do we do? Let's think outside the box, Reniera.

Well, also, what better character is there to say that to her, given that she herself has been let down in such a similar way, right?

I completely agree. She has that moral authority of like, I've been here. I've been exactly your place.

Yeah. I think also going back, rehashing like, did it start here or did it start here? Or did it start here? The fact that this has been a very long time coming. And as we've discussed many times, there were so many moments of no return.

Yeah. It's nice to see Reynis not just on patrol duty. I think we need to get somebody else to be flying over the gullet, keeping watch because we need Reynis at the table.

Yes. We get her at the table in this episode. I think that's also partly why I liked it so much because it was like, Oh, thank God. At least they're starting to get some things in order.

Let's talk about Damon, who arrives at Harren Hall in this episode. It also appears that Damon was absolutely correct that they should have gone to Harrenhal earlier because it was quite lightly held. I mean, that was like candy from a baby.

I'm claiming Harrenhal.

Apparently so.

Pees from a baby.

Yes.

Yeah, no, that was wild. I also just have to say, very briefly, seeing anyone flying a dragon in the rain just really stresses me out. Oh, amazing. I just don't think they should be doing it. It's too dangerous. It's a bad idea.

I just love the visuals. It was so epic in scope, and you really got a feel for the size of Heron Hall.

Of Damon's shoulders. Oh, yeah.

Yes. He looked like he was... He looked like a linebacker. That armor. The size of Heron Hall and the state of it, it is in very, very poor condition.

Yeah, I was shocked by that. I guess I've been thinking of it more as a strategic stronghold and not like a shithole. So I was really surprised. I was like, Oh, there's active leaking everywhere. It's like seven people live here. It's like, Oh, this is a mess.

Yeah, we've got a maintenance request out for that. It's mentioned by Sir Simon Strong, the castellan of Heron Hall, that the castle is in disrepair because egg on the Conqueror melted it around its previous owner when he was conquering the place. It's never really been fixed up because it took a tremendous time to build and it was very expensive, and any repair on it will be equally expensive. Nobody wants to do it. Nobody really wants to spend the money on it. Plus, because it's cursed, everybody who lives there and starts thinking about, Maybe I should fix this place up, has some tragedy befall them, like being set on fire, probably by a family member, for example. If you've not yet surmised, you are welcome here.

What of your lord, Laris Strong?

He who sits at the false court of Egon. Laris Clubfoot is no lord of mine.

He's a scourge upon this castle and this family.

Do you not think it's strange that his father, my nephew, Lord Lionel, perished by fire, and his son, too, here in this damp place?

It was the first fire here since Balarian ended the Line of Harrow and the Black. Even in summer, we struggled to light the harths. So no, you will find no loyalty to Laris strong here, my Prince. Your Grace.

Forgive me. I'd only assume that as consul-We are reminded of the perilousness of assumption.

Indeed.

Your Grace. Okay, so Jason, can you explain that whole your Grace, my Prince situation?

Sure. In theory, if Reniera is queen, Damon is merely the king consort, meaning he would be king, but not with any portfolio or authority.

As Allison was his queen, essentially. Yeah.

Correct. Here, Simon is essentially assuming that that's the case, but Damon appears to be taking more authority for himself than I think certainly Reniera presumes that he might take, and this was a worry of hers and as a worry of everybody that knows Damon, that he might seize more power for himself. That's his ambition. It certainly appears with this move and this titling that that is the case, that he considers himself co-equal ruler with Reniera or even the ruler. Troubling. I would say it's quite troubling. I was fascinated to learn that it's quite openly assumed that Laris killed Lord Lionel and Harwin. Were you surprised by that?

I was surprised by that, but I thought that line about them catching fire in a place as damp as this was pretty funny. I mean, it makes sense then, of course, that they would align themselves with team Black. But I can't help but wonder, do you think if team had gotten there sooner, it's not like they put up much of a fight. It's not like they can put up much of a fight.

That is my sense as well, is whoever's there is who Simon Strong will pledge Heron Hall's allegiance to because no one's eager to fight a dragon, but it was one guy, and no one really tried to stop him. One guard did. You get the feeling that this place is up for grabs, regardless.

Can we play the clip of Damon and his very spooky vision?

Oh, yeah. Let's do that.

Always coming and going, aren't you?

And I have to clean up afterwards.

So creepy.

Creepy. Yeah, creepy. If you perceive this as a dream and not a vision that is projected upon Damon, then I think it, strangely, puts him in a positive light In that, it would seem as if he has some self-awareness, a feeling of guilt at the events that he put in motion with regards to the murder of Prince Juharras, and at least an understanding of the that he is perceived as a person who's unreliable, who, in the words of this vision of young Reniera, just creates messes that other people clean up because he won't be there. What do you think is going on there?

I guess my interpretation of it was that it was just all hair and haul, the fact that he's there and it's just a deeply haunted place, and it's more the fact that he is there as opposed to him potentially having visions. I mean, he is a Targarian. I know there's precedent for that, so it is interesting to consider that. He himself is obviously deeply haunted, too. Meanwhile, there is some conflict going on at the Greensball Council. Should we jump over to King's Landing and talk about Kristen Cole's first days as the hand of the Kings?

Chris Cole. Let's play a clip.

The Riverlands are the key to the war.

Harren Hall is the key to the Riverlands.

I will ride I'll get out with those I can muster here, men I know, men I've trained.

You need time to raise the numbers to challenge the Rivermen.

Speed is my ally.

I will turn the Crown landhouses who declared for a nearer to our cause.

We will add their numbers to our own and then turn West, or I will enlist the Brackens, subdue the Riverlands, and take Harrenhal. So impatient to ride with so few men. So like to be destroyed by the first stronghold you meet. A bold scheme indeed. Well, the gods favor the bold. They did not favor Sir Eric.

I just want to say I hate Chris Cole, okay? But I love the dynamic between him and Allison in public where they just bicker. It's just like they want to be back in Allison's chambers having a vigorous bottomless brunch, but they can't.

No. And they're mad.

And they're mad about it. So all they do is just like, Oh, yeah. Nice job with Sir Eric. He's dead. You I'm just going to rationally send him off if he's dead. Oh, yeah? Well, I didn't see anybody else saying anything. It's like, Guys, cool it down.

So I am curious to hear what you think of this plan because, at least based on last episode, I don't think Kristen Cole is our best schema. No, I don't. This doesn't seem like the best plan to me. I also wonder how much of it is him just dreading this job and being like, I need to get the fuck out of here.

Yeah, I think that Chris and Cole is a soldier. To him, every solution is, let's fight. I think that that's his worldview. That said, I think having seen the state of the Riverlands, I think it could work. I think the mistake would be, as everyone seems to notice, except for Egon, let's not send the king into this. But considering the chaotic state of the Riverlands, considering the weakhold that Lord Tully has on the region in general, considering the fact that fighting is already taking place actively there and that there are at least two green armies converging on the Riverlands, plus Cole's proposed force to head out, and the fact that the Heron Hall is held by basically one guy, Damon, with a dragon, yes, but with no real army me to speak about, I think that this can work.

How often... I was trying to think of precedent of sending your hand away. I mean, I guess we got that very briefly in season one of House of the Dragon, when Otto goes to Dragon Stone, but that didn't even go that well.

Yeah, it's not unheard of. In later years, when the Mad King was the ruler, his hand, Tywin Lannister, was very active and was, in fact, thought to be running things directly. So it's certainly not unprecedented. That said, if Egan is going to stay in the Capitol, which is the case, you definitely want good advisors around him. Now, you could say that's Allison. Sure. I'd certainly trust Allison more than I would trust Chris Cole in that role right now. What do you think of Christopher's chair gripping, staring off into the middle distance before he went into the small council chamber? How did you read that?

He He is in way over his head, and he's super stressed out about it. I mean, even him being late to that meeting is like, he cannot wrap his head around the insane level of power he has just been granted by an extremely irresponsible king. I don't know if he's even thinking about it that hard because I'm not sure that he can.

Yeah, it really just seemed like, Oh, no. Oh, God. Oh, God. I have to go in there and I have to say things, and I have to act like the hand of the king. I thought it was very interesting the way everyone else was reacting to him, like the new Kingsgard and the people that he was until the day previously was in charge of directly as Lord Commander of the Kingsgard. It's like when a friend gets promoted and now the dynamic is different at work because they're a boss, everybody's looking at him like, Oh, now you're a boss? And he, I didn't ask for this. I didn't ask for this. I don't know how to act right now. Yeah.

I do want to talk about the scene when they're about to dig off because I think there are two noteworthy things in that. One is more bickering between Allison and Cole. The bickering is really good. But also we meet Allison's Bro.

Wayne. Yeah. Wayne Hightower. How did you read his arrogance towards Cole? Clearly wanted to put Cole in his place by reminding him, Oh, what an incredible come-up story for a young man like yourself. Still mud on your boots, huh? It's a good window into how people probably view Christopher Cole, particularly people of noble birth, and how Cole views himself as this guy that nobody believes in because he didn't come from a family that anybody cares about.

Totally.

Speaking of people coming from Old Town, did you catch the reference to Allison's other son, unseen up to this point with Viseras, Agon's younger brother, Darren, a. K. A. Darren the Daring, who's been living at Old Town this whole time.

Jason, to be completely honest, I had completely forgotten about him until in episode two of this season, we get Otto when he's about to leave, and he's like, Fine, I'll go hang out with Darren in Old town. So I assume we will be hearing more from him in this season.

What did you think of Egan's reaction to seeing Amand with Madame Sylvie?

I thought it was terrible. I also feel like it was... I mean, we know we can't trust Egan to make the best decisions. But you would think if you're worried about your younger brother with a very powerful dragon who's obviously actually a better warrior than you are, trying to overtake the throne, don't you think that you would not be an asshole to him and push him farther away?

It's a great point, and I think it speaks to the complete disregard that he has for Amund as any threat to him, option to him in anyone's eyes. I think he maybe fairly thinks, The family has gone through so much to put me on this throne. Nobody is thinking about Amand. They're not thinking about him.

It was really bad. I mean, it's just petty and mean, which is not actual power.

For sure. It was like a return to the dynamic that he has with Amand from their childhood, where Amand is the book-reading nerd who just can't loosen up, while Egon is running around Getting drunk and having fun. I thought it was really small of Egon, and I found the whole thing just cruel, a cruel streak that is very unseemly to see in a king, particularly towards a brother. I thought it was really sad the way Amand had to put up that wall and pretend, I don't actually care about this woman.

Yes, he had to put up that wall, and he also didn't even let himself get angry. I mean, he really just removed himself from the situation.

What did you make of the story from the perhaps apocryphal tale told by this bargoer who's like, Oh, yeah. Well, I'm the son of Balon the brave. My grandfather was King Jaharis, the conciliarian creator, and we hear this word dragon seed, what did you make of that?

It's not often that you get a character like that in this franchise. I feel like they just walk in and they're like, I could be a pivotal part of this entire story, and you've never met me before. It means potentially another dragon rider, right?

I think it could mean that. It's also a really wonderful window into the way information travels in this world. This is just hearsay. I know a guy who said he saw something, who heard something, who has a story, and maybe this is true. The way he presents this story is as if he has some special entree into current events. It's not just that he says, Well, my dad was Bale on the brave. Bastard brother. Bastard son. Yeah. It's more like, and they still pick up the phone when I call, which is very interesting.

Right. I got one nephew on the throne. I got another nephew who's the right player.

Very lucky for him that that was not overheard by anybody.

That timing, yeah. But yeah, I'm very curious about that gentleman, I I guess we'll see what happens.

Before we leave King's Landing, let's talk about the conversation between Alicent and Helena, which I thought was really evocative.

That horrid procession where the small vocal stirred at me. I weren't they thought I had no more right to grief than they do. Surely they lose their babies more than highborn ladies. The stranger comes for us all.

Could Queen and commoner, you have as much claimed to grief as anyone.

And you? I love Jairus, but my concern has been more for you and what you have endured. Hélène, I... I forgive I forgive you. What? I said that I forgive you.

A very interesting scene. I read that as Helena saying, I forgive you for having brunch with Sir Kristenrishnan Cole.

I don't know what she's forgiving her for. I think the fact that there are so many likely suspects for with forgiveness. It is really interesting. It could be that. I thought of that as well. It could be that Allison is partly responsible for the series of events that led to her son, Jaheris's murder. It could be any number of things that haven't happened yet. It's really interesting. But clearly, Allison was shocked and surprised by that, and it really seemed to hit her on a very, very deep level to hear this. I think that Allison is carrying a lot of guilt for a lot of things, going all the way back to her relationship with Viserus and the way that started.

Totally.

What did you make of Helena's speech about grief in general?

I thought it was heartbreaking. I mean, just thinking back to that idea of you can't show grief now, but you definitely have to when we put you on a carriage behind your dead kid and you have to tour around town to show everyone how upset you are.

Yeah. I think the way this conversation ends, too, with the forgiveness, the way that Allison says, Well, I'm thinking about you, Helena, and I'm here for you if you need. And she just immediately with that, forgive you. It's such a power switch, too, where all of a sudden it's the child who becomes the person comforting the parent.

Totally.

Let's talk about team Black over in Dragon Stone. The Black Council is trying to get the engine started on the war, but there are problems. A bunch of guys just trying to tell Renier what to do. Your Grace, you have witnessed firsthand just how vulnerable you are. Prince Damon is abroad, and Egan's factions are enraged at the death of his son. You have never been so exposed. Perhaps it is time for you to think about secreting yourself somewhere safe while we remain here as a source of distraction for the enemy.

He proposed to conduct the war in my absence.

It would merely be a precaution.

It would be treason.

I was shocked just to see people at her council laughing at the queen. That can't happen.

Yeah, no, they seemed so disdainful of her, too. That idea of, Why don't you just go hide and we'll deal with it? It's like, I'm sorry. What?

Yeah, that is not good. It's such a perilous situation because I think as we have talked at length about, part of the mistake of Viserus in his reign was not doing the thing that he said he would do when people crossed a red line. Here is Reniera facing that. I think she needs to meet this disrespect to her authority very strongly or this whole project is lost. That said, she also needs every lord and every sword at their command and can't just start throwing people in the dungeons. She is in a trap right now. She is in a very dangerous place where she has to do something. She can't do the thing that they're asking for, at least not yet. I think that's a fair read. She has to bring her followers in line, but she can't do it too strongly or she will lose them. Very dangerous. What did you make of this?

I really liked the moment shortly after that when Reineera leaves and Reinees is like, Listen, motherfuckers, you all need to get in line. I thought that was exciting, partly because, as we talked about even in the last episode, Reinees is obviously an asset, and to have her just on the dragon doing her thing in the sky is not actually the best place for her, given the state of the council.

Greta, how do you think Rhaenera is feeling about Damon's absence. She's a little cagey with her lords about it.

If I were her, I would be really relieved that I don't have to deal with him. But on the other hand, that's a huge liability, right? So, yeah, I mean, what's your read on getting her kids out of town? Because I did read that as she is taking their advice to a certain extent, right? I mean, she is preparing for war enough that she's like, Okay, I need other people to take responsibility for these children and to make sure that they are in safe places along with these dragon eggs.

It was sad and prudent all at the same time, which was one, let's safeguard the future. Let's get the kids out of here. They can't do anything. Let's send them to my ally, Jane Aaron, who said, Well, I want a dragon around. Okay, she didn't say an adult dragon. So we send a couple of baby dragons and some eggs. Hopefully, that will tide her over, and we get her support. We get the kids out of harm's way. It was quite responsible, but also, I think, very, very sad. What did you think?

Oh, I thought it was super sad. I mean, especially the moment that you're asking someone else to mother your children in case of catastrophe, it's just like, All right, well, that's it. I think this is one where it did seem like she actually was balancing her roles pretty well in terms of knowing she needs to put being queen first, but still making sure that the kids are being taken care of and that there are people she trusts who are taking care of them. She sends Reina to be that person because as we know, unlike her sister, she doesn't have a dragon. So at least to that extent, she's of no use to the actual war effort.

She is clearly feeling a little put out by that and put out by the fact that she's being asked to sit on the sidelines. I wanted to ask you about a potential Easter egg. These eggs are going to the Vale and then to Pentos, where Reniera has asked Reina to go with the youngest. Just heartbreakingly, the way she says, We could lose, and it could be the end of us, and so we need this for the future. But here's my question. Do you think these are Danny's eggs in the future? There's four of them, not three, so maybe they lose one along the way. Oh, interesting. There's four. But they do go east to Pentos, where Danny has then gifted eggs that may or may not be these eggs. But quite a tantalizing thread, no? If this is the eggs, this is how the eggs got there?

It is. You probably remember when we did the Game of Thrones convention together a couple of years ago now. Someone had DMed me on Instagram and was like, Those are the eggs. I was like, I don't know, man, this seems like a stretch, but we'll see, maybe.

Do you think Reniera regrets not reading Allison's letter sooner? I understand why she didn't.

I think their relationship is so complicated. I'm not sure that it necessarily would have helped, but I loved that they talked to each other in this episode. That was another pacing thing I wanted to bring up because, again, we have a conversation between Rhaenera and Messaria where Rhaenera is like, I would love to see Allison. There's another version of the show where that would have taken a half a season for them to actually make that happen. The fact that the next scene, she is disguised as a septa walking through town was just like, Yes, let's do it.

Let's listen to that. He said he was the Prince that was promised to unite the realm.

What?

I desire peace as you do, but to Decepta.

My father used those words, the Prince that was promised.

Did he? Yes, he did.

He spoke to you of the song of Ice and Fire. It's a story he once told. About Egon, the Conqueror. The Conqueror. You must go before you are discovered.There's.

Been a mistake.There's been no mistake. Please. You can prevent this, Allison. A terrible war is looming, and even victory may be so bloodiest to be counted a loss.

Do not let your pride blind you. That's a bloodiest. No, a mistake.

I came away both downcast and hopeful, hopeful because Allison did not turn Reniera in, but down because I love the idea from Reniera to find any way to forge some piece. That's a good thought and one that should be pursued. The outside of the box thinking that maybe Allison, taking the advice of Reynice, maybe Allison is the way that we can forge that piece. At the same time, I I find myself so frustrated that with that good idea, she offered nothing. It was basically, Guys, just surrender because you know you guys are in the wrong, so just let me be queen. Can you give us something? Let's marry Jace to Jihara. What is the thing that you can offer that might give them a way to accept peace honorably? Because at this point, everybody's blood is up and nobody wants to look like they lost. So how do you give them the thing that they can take to their side and present it as a win? I was really saddened that Reniera didn't do that. All she offered was, just quit. What were your thoughts about this scene?

I totally hear you. I do think the fact that they cleared up the prophecy misunderstanding- That was important. Is really important. I think it introduces doubt for Allison in a very real way, and I do think it's going to be interesting to see how she reflects on that information and what choices she makes from here. But I mean, her immediate reaction is more or less like, it's too late. It's been very clear for a very long time that it's not about Reineira and Allison being able to mend things anymore.

Yeah. This is not in the book, by the way.

Oh, really? Why do you think they added it?

I think they added it to show that there are a lot of things that didn't make the historical record that drove events, and that those things were happening between Allison and Reniera or other people that are roundly ignored as leaders. Obviously, a theme of this show is that women are not seen as power players in the realm. I think this was in part added to show that, yes, they are. And when they are, it's either ignored or easily hidden because they're not seen that way. Right.

Yeah. It wouldn't have made the books even if it were monumental.

Why do you think Renier asked what Viseris said on his deathbed. What do you think that was about?

I think she has been wrestling with doubt about whether or not Viseris really thought she should be queen after all. And you see it in her face when she's asking and when Allison is responding, when she says he mentioned Egon.

Yeah, it really seemed like Alicent took those words as true.

Viseris, sure, he never said outright that he thought Egon should be king before then, but he also, as we have discussed, didn't do a lot to shore up support for Reniera when he was in a position to do so, in which case I could totally see why she would wonder what his last words really were.

The performances of these two actors is fantastic, and the vulnerability of Reniera when asking what it was that Viserra said. It's clear the way it hit me was, Okay, did he really change his mind? If you tell me right now that he changed his mind, I'll believe you. If you tell me sincerely. And That was really sad and really vulnerable of Reniera, and I was very moved by it.

I think that's what was so striking about that scene in general, too, is that you can tell they both still trust each other, right? It's also when Reniera was like, I had nothing to do with beheading that child. Allison was like, Oh, come on. She was like, Okay, I believe you. They both still really do believe each other. Yeah.

Do you think that Allison could stop the war, like, convince people to do that?

I don't think so. And part of my reasoning is around the fact that Allison's power, I mean, the power of most women in this world is so contingent upon the men that surround her. Kind of get that in this clip, too, where she's like, Otto's gone. Kristen is gone. Nobody's in my pocket the way I would need them to be in order to make that happen. It's how I read that, especially like, Egan's kid has been killed. Egan's just furious. Obviously. Yeah. But I'm still optimistic that they can have some positive change as a little team.

Same.

Well, shall we go to our interview with Bethany Antonia, who plays Bayla?

Let's do it. We are so excited to welcome Bethany Antonia, who plays Bayla Targarian to the show. Thanks for being here, Bethany.

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Thanks for coming on. We're really excited to talk to you because Bayla has taken on already such a bigger role than she had in Season 1. You really see her. I mean, she's at the Queens Council. She is an advisor. She is riding that dragon It's really cool to see. What's it like from your point of view?

Oh, it's so amazing. It just feels like such a blessing to get to play this character now at her full potential. It felt like we waited such a long time to see all the kids of the dance really step up into the characters we all knew they were going to be. It just feels like a real privilege to get to play her.

We have to talk about the huge moment that Bayla has in this episode, which is when we finally see her riding Moondancer. It was awesome. Of course, this This is the sequence where you're chasing Kristen Cole and Gwena Hightower. What is it like to film a scene like that? I mean, you're not riding a literal dragon, obviously.

Hey, I'll have none of that.

Sorry, I shouldn't have put it like that.

It's so cool. The way they film the dragon scenes is really fascinating because you get given an animation of what it's going to look like before you've even shot it, before both sides of the scenes have been shot. I got to see Baylor's POV. I got to see what the different weather options were all before I even sat on the dragon mount. By the time you've got up there, you know exactly what the director is looking for. Then the last bit of the magic is just to sit on the saddle and fly into the air.

What is the prep like for a dragon scene? Do you talk to the other actors who have filmed on Dragons? You watch other dragon scenes. How do you prepare for it?

Yeah, it's really funny because everybody has a slightly different take on the dragon riding scenes. Some people absolutely love it. Some people think it's the worst part of the job because it's so uncomfortable. I tried to just take little nuggets from everybody who had different advice. Then I suppose with the actual dragon riding, each dragon is so different visually, and they've all got their own quirks and features. We'd seen so much of what they were going to look like in the lead up between season one and two. We'd been showing pictures and stuff. You got to decide what the relationship was between you and your dragon and how you'd move and how you'd fly. I think part of it is a character-building process, which was a bit that I loved.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Well, that's also an interesting scene from the point of view of getting to know Bayla's character because the instruction she gets her to scout. She's not supposed to interfere at all, but she gets in there. I think that's a really cool thing. It's such a Now, arguably small thing, but at the same time, it gives you such a sense of who Bayla is going to be.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's just a really cool scene because it's a reminder that she's Damon's daughter, after all, and that you can be told one thing, but you can absolutely do another. I think we really get to see Bayla grappling with what's right and wrong this season and where her loyalty actually lies. I think we've seen her scrambling to find her main parental figure. I really had fun this season trying to figure out who's the person she goes to when she needs different things. I think she's found a lot of that in Rhauneera, but she's also found Rhauneera can also be the person that she doesn't have to listen to all the time because she's not her immediate parental figure. So, yeah, it was really, really fun playing around with that.

Speaking of that, Reniera said, Don't engage, don't get low. At the same time, had Kristen Cole and Gwen Hightower and the rest not escaped into the trees Do you think Baylor would have taken them on?

Yeah, I think she would have. I think people will be interested to know that we actually shot a few versions of this scene. We shot like, alternate endings. Oh, really? Maybe not alternate endings, but alternate motives. There was a version where Baylor saw them, delayed her response, and then they got away. There was a version where she saw them and tried to go for them and missed. Then there's the version that we see in this, which is that she was just a little bit too and we don't know what her intention was going in. I like to think that she would have gone for them if given the chance.

I love, of those three, I think that is my favorite option, is what we see, where it's like, because it does leave open that possibility, which is really interesting.

Yeah, absolutely.

In this episode, Bayla also has to say goodbye to her sister, Reina. I wonder what it was like to film that sequence. I mean, these are two characters who have It was such a huge backstory, but we haven't seen a whole lot of them interacting with each other in the show yet.

Oh, it was so heartbreaking. The scene that we see in this episode was actually the audition scene that Phoebe and I did together way back in like 20 A million years ago? Yeah, four years ago. It was so nice to finally get to do it on screen. But it was also just so sad because I think for both of us, so early on, they're ripped away from each other. So the emotion in that scene was very real from both of us.

Tell us about the relationship between Reina and Bayla. Obviously, very complicated family dynamics, both very young, thrust into the heat of this civil war. How do they feel about each other? What's their relationship like?

I think their relationship has been a tumultuous one because as children, they were so inseparable and they were so close, and they had this shared upbringing in pentas. Then when Lena passed away, Bayla was sent to ward with Reinees and Callas at DriftMark. Rhaena stayed at home with Rhaenera and the boys, and Damon was in and out of all of their childhoods. And although Driftmark and Dragonstone are very close, they were still actively separate. And just in the way that in Westeros, the eldest child is favored, that had happened between the two of them. And Reina felt quite a lot of resentment towards that and towards the fact that Baylor got to be raised with Reinees and live in the footsteps of her mother while Reina didn't get to do that. I think there's this rift that has come up between them and where we meet them now in Season 2, Episode 3, that's where they are. It's really sad because they're on the brink of fixing it because it's the first time that they're back together. They're back in the same place with all their family at the same time. They're all living under one roof now.

They're all at Dragon Stone, and they're separated again. I'm really interested to see where that goes in in the future.

Well, you mentioned resentment. Also, just how different they are. It seems like one of the huge differences also is the fact that Bayla has a dragon.

Yeah, of course. That's something that started way back when. Another thing that's led Reina to feel like the lesser sibling. It's just another thing that Bayla has that she doesn't. She's the eldest sibling. She's got the dragon. She gets to live with her grandma, and she gets to learn about being the leader of DriftMark. Yeah, not having a dragon something that Reina really is devastated about because she's the only Targarian that doesn't have one.

You mentioned Bayla and Reina's biographies and childhood histories. How important is that, putting those pieces together, even if they're not things we're going to see on the screen, towards you really being able to inhabit this character.

Oh, so important to me. I think for me, the backstory of any character is the most important part of being able to play them, especially when it comes to finding your relationships with different characters and finding where the nuances are between how you interact with each other. There's so much of, for example, Baylor and Jace's storyline that happens off-screen, and we really needed to build that before we could start filming it this season or else. It just didn't feel right. It didn't feel natural. We didn't know where... We needed to fill in the blanks of where they'd been off screen before we could bring it to real life this season. So, yeah, really, really important.

That makes sense. I mean, you and Jace do, or Bayla and Jace do have It's such a nice dynamic this season. We were actually talking about in an earlier episode how sweet their relationship seems to be, which you don't get a whole lot of just nice relationships on this show. But I'd love to hear how it's been to work more closely with Harry Colette, who plays Jace. I mean, how do you prepare for your scenes together?

Oh, I love that boy so much. We had so much fun this season because Jace has lost Luke, and now Baylor has lost Reina. And so they're the last duo standing at Dragon's Day. They really learned to lean on each other and to become each other's wing person. We had so much fun working together. We had so much fun creating these little backstories of our characters. Just, yeah, he's such a brilliant, brilliant guy.

Are there any of those back stories that you could share?

Yeah. We had the idea that when Baylor was at DriftMark with Rhaenys, they would fly their dragons over to meet each other. And they would go in the scene that you've seen in episode 2, where they meet when Baylor's crossbow training, that's their sacred place that they meet at. And they have done that all the while off camera. Maybe it's somewhere in between Driftmark and Dragon Stone, and they'd fly there on their Dragons and just gossip about the grownups.

That's really cute.

We also said that after every Black Council scene, maybe they just go off and have a debrief, and they get to talk normally, not with the formality of being at court. They get to just chat like kids in the group chat. I love that.

That's really cool. Yeah. Of course, these two characters are betrothed to each other. How do you envision their marriage?

Just really harmonious. No drama. They really love each other. Something that Harry and me have talked about is that they probably would have ended up together without the betrothal. They care about each other so much. There's a really beautiful thing that you see with the younger versions of the characters at Lena's funeral where they hold hands just for a tiny two second moment. But it meant so much to the development of our characters. I think that they're probably the only people that have openly talked about the fact that Harwin is Jace's real dad, and it's second nature to them to have that conversation. So they can both talk about having lost a parent so openly. I think that bonding through grief has just solidified what their relationship is now that they're grown up.

I love that. You've been a part of a lot of small council deliberations on Dragonstone this season. What's it like filming those? And how do you think Bayla feels that it's going at the moment?

The Black Council scenes are the longest scenes to film because there's so many people. So you do four days on one scene, but They're really fun to film because it's one of the only times that everyone's together, really, and that you get to see the whole Black Council. I think Baylor, gradually, as the show goes on, is just starting to feel more and more afraid of losing the people that she loves. I think she can see that this war isn't going as seamlessly as they'd assumed and hoped. I think we see her realize that it's not just about having dragons. We're not winning. Nobody's winning. I think that they all thought the war was going to be very clear-cut. As the council scenes go on and on and on, we see her realize that that's not the case.

This is such a personal story, too, beyond just being a story about two warring factions, Both sides have long histories. There was the kid fight years back when Eamonn's eye was cut out. You've been feuding since you all have been kids. How do those kinds of personal feelings affect what's going on here?

We should have just said sorry when we were 10 and not taking the mick out of him, and literally, nobody would be dead. Literally, nobody would be dead. You know, it's really funny you bring that up because I think one of the things that we did this season when the directors made us watch that scene again, the initial scene where just before Amen claims Vega, just to remind us of where that kid bullying began and how nothing really mentally has shifted. We've just grown up. We've all grown up, and now our actions have bigger consequences. I think it's really brilliant to just go back every now and again and remember that that's where it started, because the personal feelings is all that's fueling this war. And now we're in tit for tat ground, and people are one-upping each other, but it all comes back down to that initial moment where a child was bullied.

That is really wild. Yeah. I have another behind-the-scenes question for you, which is about the wig you wear. I assume it's a wig. Yeah. Yeah, it's a wig. What is that process like? I mean, it's got to get... Is it itchy? I don't know. I just have a lot of wig questions. Yeah.

No, funnily enough, in season two, I actually shaved my head to make the wig process easier. That makes sense. I had a big Afro in season one, and the wig time was like two hours to braid my Afro away, an hour to get the wig. I was like, Absolutely not. Shooting for six months. The hair's going. I shaved all my hair off, and then it made it so seamless. It was like half an hour to get it on, and then they do some cool braid thing to it, and it looks amazing.

That's awesome. Yeah.

Well, obviously, Bayla is quite strongly team Black, but, Bethany, what about yourself? Team Green and team Black, and how do you feel the wars going?

You don't need to ask me that question. You know what team I am.

How Yeah, I know.

Good answer. That's like, blasphemous. I think the war is going terribly, so terribly. Like, the worst it could possibly be going. Yes.

Here's another potentially blasphemous question. Do you think Bayla would make a good queen?

Oh, you know what? I think she would, but I don't want that for her. This track record of Kings and Queens is not going well. That's a good answer.

No, it doesn't seem fun, I just want Bayla and Jace to go off on a little Caribbean holiday with their Dragons, drink Pina coladas, and look at Westeros from afar. Good for them. I respect it. Well, Bethany, thank you so much for chatting with us. This really was fun.

Oh, thank you so much. This was so nice.

That was the wonderful and winning Bethany Antonia, who plays Bayla. And next up, we also got a chance to welcome Director Geeta Vasant-Patel back to the podcast. She directed this episode, and we had a lot of questions for her about it. Let's go listen.

We are so excited to welcome Director Geeta Vasant-Patel back to the podcast today. Thank you for being here, Geeta.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Last season in our conversation, you told us about how directing House of the Dragon was a long-term ambition, a dream of yours. You did it. So now going to season 2, does it feel any different?

It just feels like the dream keeps going. It's been so great. I still pinch myself when we're shooting, knowing that I'm here making this show that I love with these characters that I love with these writers whose writing is just so profound and these actors who are the top of their craft. It really is still a dream.

That's really cool. I have to say I'm extra excited to talk to you about this episode, obviously not only because you directed it, but also because I think it was my favorite so far.

Oh, that's great. Well, it's definitely something we worked very hard on. So it's been a really long journey with this episode. We took things out, put them back in, for example, the dragon chase into the woods. That scene was gone for a long time.

Bethany actually told us a little bit about how you shot it in three different ways, right?

Yeah. You know, it's one of those scenes that it was there when I read the script and when I came aboard I unfortunately felt like we could take it out and it wouldn't make a difference. But then as soon as we took it out, we missed it because there was a certain tonal quality to it that we really needed for episode three. I think there's a threat in that scene or that group of scenes that we needed in order to raise the stakes for the rest of the season. Actually, we went back in, the writers, myself, our AD, our DP, and we just put our heads together and thought, Okay, what is it that we're missing? It's not that the scene shouldn't be there. It's more that we need to hone it. We all realized that the reason for this scene was twofold. One is we needed to care about Bethany's character. Bayla is someone we don't know much about. We didn't really get to know her first season. One of the things that I wanted to do was really bring her forward as Maverick. She's this feisty character who doesn't play by the rules, that has a deep-seated pain that she's carrying, that drives what she's doing.

She's lost things. How do you bring that to the screen without words? Because that's exactly what that was. So it was a really great experience working as a team to make sure that this character is someone we cared about. So that was the first thing. The other thing that we needed to do was to understand that this scene was there in order to scare the living hell out of Cole and his team. And that is something that we also worked on in trying to raise the stakes when they're in the woods. It can't be easy. So the fact that the dragon circles and they're waiting, all of that was added and honed as we went along. In the end, I hope it is as powerful as we were trying to craft it to be. I think it's one of the scenes that I'm most proud of, and I'm so excited that we truly worked as a family to make sure that it was important and vital to the episode.

It's interesting to hear you use the word family in that context, too, because so much about... The heart of this show really is family, too, right? I think, especially as we're moving into this season, we're seeing it's also more and more about war. But even then, it still comes back to family. There's another really intense scene in this episode when Rhae Niera makes the very difficult decision to send some of her children away. I think this is an interesting scene for a couple of reasons. What you were talking about with Bayla, this show has to do so much building of invisible backstory between especially the younger characters that we didn't get a chance to see much of in season one. I think that scene is such a great example of you see these tiny hands, you feel so much.

That's exactly right. I think one of the the wonderful parts of prep on this show was taking these two characters, Bayla and Reina, and figuring out who they were. So one of the first things we did is we got in a room with the two actors, We improvised and we played around. We talked about what their pain was, each of them, where they came from, how are they different, how are they alike? And they They brought their characters to life. They just rift. They had arguments. They fell back in love. They didn't support each other, and then they supported each other. These are the things that happen in behind the scenes when you're trying to bring scenes to life that don't have the exposition. This is one of the things that I credit the writers with, is they don't dumb it down with exposition. They trust us as the directors and the cast to it to life when it comes to us. They tell us, Look, this is what the scene is really about. The writers knew exactly what they wanted out of this. I think one of the great things about this show is that there is this literacy in the visual realm that we are challenged to bring to life.

One thing I loved with the both of them is when we did the improvisation, we thought, You know what? Bayla has always been the icon and she's done everything against the grain, and here she gets a dragon. Reina has done everything right. She got straight A's, she stayed in, she made her curfew, and she doesn't get a dragon. And this is it. She's done. You know what? I'm going to go get drunk. I'm going to go sleep with people. I'm going to get tattoos. Why am I being the good daughter? Because everyone got a dragon except for me. I think that's what came out of those rehearsals where the two of them found themselves. And we all know this, and this is one of the things that's great about the show as well, is I think the technique on this show of going away from fantasy and really grounding the characters in something that we all understand is what Ryan really challenges us to do, is how can everyone relate to this? Well, I can relate to that. I'm sure everyone can relate to that. Then the second part of the scene is where Reniera has to let go of her family.

I thought the treatment of that part of the scene was also interesting. If you think about a mom saying goodbye to her kids, what do you think? Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Oh, she's crying. She's weeping. Reniera is Reniera in this. She's natural. She's real in that she's a powerful woman who lives a very complicated life, and she has had to make decisions for her job. I'm a working mom. I don't cry all the time. I drop my kid off to school. He goes into school. We're all different. I think one thing about the way that we have portrayed women in this show is that they are everyday people. In this case, she's got a job to do. She goes back to her home after she says goodbye to her children, and she cries holding their toys. I thought that was a really great choice that was made by not just the performance, but by the writing.

I think one thing that really comes through to me, too, thinking about that scene and Reneera's point of view is the particular bind she's in. She's getting all this pressure from her advisors We have to do something. At the same time, she is doing something, which is moving vulnerable family members she cares very much about who are very important to the continuing legacy of this family out of harm's way before things really get hot. How did you approach that balance for Reniera, where she's trying to balance this active war that's currently getting more and more intense, and the job of trying to shepherd this family safe briefly through this storm while getting criticism from all sides, this generational criticism, too, where the younger folks want to do more, don't think they're doing enough, want to put themselves in harm's way.

Yeah. In trying to craft this storyline of Reniera balancing what she has to give up in order to get what she wants, there is this really interesting element underneath it all of ego, and we all recognize it. I feel like there's this grain of ego that starts getting larger and larger. I think part of the charm of her storyline in this episode is actually exposing this flaw that she wants this. And we tried very hard to be in Renier's point of view. And what I mean by that is not just showing you what she's seeing. That's not point of view in my mind. Point of view is the air, is sitting with Reniera walking down the hall. For example, Reniera is walking down a hallway and coming down the stairs in order to talk to Ms. Aria. We don't have her just walk into the room. We walked with her. We stayed with her. The vulnerability, but also the drive. We recognize it because it's primal. She's an animal. She sees what she wants, and she's giving up something to gain it.

I think so much of the show also ends up being about the difficulty and balance between being a good ruler and being a good parent. I think we especially see that in this season with being a good queen and being a good mother. We see Allison struggling with this. We see Helena struggling with this. I think that's another... The scene we've been talking about is a great example with Reniera, too. How do you think Reniera is Are you assuming at both of those things at this point in the story?

I think Reniera is in an episodic part of her life where she walks into one room and she understands what she needs to do there, and then she walks in the next room and she understands what she needs to do there. It's not until she sits down alone where it all comes together for her. I think things are happening so fast that she hasn't had a chance to plan through or process what it is she's doing. There is a freight train aspect to this where she's in a war room. When the men are saying, We need to do something, we need to send Dragons, her only way way to deal with that is to say, Look, I'm not ready yet. Let me just deal with a couple of things at home. I got to take care of my family, make sure they're not here. I don't even know what I'm going to do yet. She doesn't know what she's going to do yet. I don't necessarily know if it's thought out. I think that's also quite human that she's got a family, she's got a job, she can't control everything. Same with Allison. I think Allison's greatest conflict in this episode is that she can't control her sons.

The summit meeting, the secret meeting between Reniera and Allison, I think came as a surprise to us, and I'm sure to a lot of the audience as well. What was your reaction when you read that scene?

It was a surprise to me, too. I think the scene where Reniera goes to Allison was a surprise in that if we look at the beginning of the episode, Reniera was so charged with emotion. I've spent A lot of time in War Zones. My first job was working in War Zones and documenting these eye for an eye type of situations that can get to a point where everybody's blind. But there are people who have risen above it. We're looking at a story about a hero, someone who is willing to look beyond their pain, and she is willing to reach out to do the right thing for this duty that has been put upon her. She wants to avert war because as we've heard in this episode, particularly, Renée says, There is no war so hateful to the gods as a war between kin, and no war so bloody as a war between dragons. What Renée is saying is, This is nuclear. If we involve Dragons, it is the end of us, all of us. So Reniera has no choice. She believes that there is a way to turn things, and that's through Allison. And by the end, she finds love within herself, which is heroic.

I think that scene is another reason why this is my favorite episode so far, partly because it's just such a pleasure to see those two acting together. They're both so phenomenal. And it's been a while since we've seen that. The last time that they interacted was actually in Season 1, Episode 8, which you also directed.

It's such an honor to work with these two actors It is as if we've come straight from that episode into this episode in my mind. We walked into the sept, and for example, Emma and I remembered when Viserus said, You're the one, as he was dying. Allison, she had a scene in episode 8 where Viserus died just after he told her that her son needed to stand on the throne. So it was all very fresh for all of us because it was the three of us. Reniera seems like she's out there doing business. She came to Allison to make sure there's no war, but let's just talk about the truth. The whole time, she wants to know, Does my father not love me. I just spent all that time waiting for him to walk into that room, and he walked into that room. He came down the aisle of the throne room. He couldn't even walk, and he did it to tell me he loved me. Are you telling me that was all a lie? And that's what happens in this scene is underneath it all, maybe she didn't come to make amends. Maybe she needed an excuse to know for sure, to look Allison in the eye and know if Allison was lying.

And on the other hand, then Allison is hit over the head with, Was this a mistake? But Allison being Allison holds her ground and cannot process this in the moment. It's overwhelming. And so she She holds her ground, although we feel her entire world falling apart because she has been pushing her two sons to lead. And there's a part of her that is now perhaps feeling honest. And we'll see this go into the next episode.

When they leave each other after this secret meeting in the sept, on the surface, it feels like neither really got what they wanted that Reniera didn't get a peace deal, Allison didn't get an end to the war. At the same time, it also feels like some unexpected door also opened. Where do they leave when they part from each other?

Reniera came to this hoping that she could make some deal with Allison. What she didn't perhaps realize is that she had nothing to give Allison. When Allison says, Okay, well, you're going to come and allow me to move forward? No. And so they actually... What Reneira wanted was for Allison to just give her the throne. And there was no compromise. And I think that's the big realization they both have at the end of the scene. No one is willing to compromise. So that thing that we talk about, an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, the pain is still there. Neither of them actually lets up. What is really evident in this scene is the love between the two of them. There's this beautiful vulnerability at the end of the scene when Allison, in her last words before she leaves the room, tells her, Niera, Look, you've seen what I'm going through. You see my sons. And we feel it there, and Runeera feels it there. Allison is basically leaving the room powerless and having admitted it in what she feels is a space of speaking with her sister. And Reniera is disappointed in Allison.

I don't know if Reniera fully realizes that she wasn't actually compromising in that room. Again, there is this ego that's forming, and this is my opinion. I just think that there is someone growing here. I think at the end, Allison is spinning with the truth, and Ronira is galvanized to push the button, which she didn't want to do.

Yeah. I don't know. It's funny because I think so often I find myself getting frustrated with a plot point where I'm like, well, if they could just talk to each other, it would all be fine. Yeah. And so it was partly really satisfying to see like, oh, my God, they're actually talking to each other. But also it's not all going to be fine. It's actually much worse.

Yeah.

We have to talk about Harrenhal.

Yes.

Seeing as this is... We saw it a little bit in Game of Thrones, But never to this degree. And there's this wonderful, spooky vibe that the castle puts off. Tell us about your approach to filming Harrenhal.

When I first read Harrenhal, I thought of Silence of the Lambs. I really wanted it to be pitch dark, to be honest. I wanted him to just be lost because I felt like it was a metaphor for what Damon is going through right now. And so that What was the entry point into this, is trying to make Harren Hall exemplary of what Damon is feeling throughout the season. And this is the beginning of that story. He comes into a place that puts him on his back foot and scares him, to be honest. Damon doesn't get scared easily. If we go to the very beginning of that scene, we knew that the last time we saw Damon, he had been fighting with his wife, and she had pushed him away. When someone pushes you away and tells you you're worthless, it hurts and it drives you into a spin. And so the way that the dragon was entering that scene, I really wanted it to be a guy getting in his car, drinking and driving and just feeling like, My life sucks and fuck her. And so that's what we did. We created this dragon entry into the scene in this darkness.

Then he comes around, Harrenhal, and the weather is terrible. It's not just that was all done in order to help us get into Damon's head. He's entering Harren Hall with Troubles.

So Harren Hall is really fascinating to see. I would love to hear about some of the visual elements that you wanted to make sure to have there to create this the creepiness and the witchiness and the general eeriness. I think a lot about even the sound design in those scenes because something is always dripping.

When we first sat down, and a lot of this started with Ryan and Jim Clay, our production designer. When we first started creating Heron Hall, it was about a place that doesn't make sense and a place that constantly surprises you and is mercurial. So one of the big things, and we got this from the books as well, is that there's big, epic, wide spaces, and all of a sudden it would go into a space that is tight and small, and then it would go back out to big, and the stairs would go down, and the stairs would go up. It's a confusing space. It is disorienting. That was one of the words we used the most. And so when I came on, I think it was just trying to deliver that. It was a very, very long process of making sure that when Damon enters Heron Hall, you feel how big it is, but we didn't have the set that look like that. Everything you're seeing on the screen is actually a very small, small set that we played games with. For example, he goes down one hall and turns the corner and goes down another hall.

That was the same hall. We just lit it differently, dressed it differently. You see a hall and it looks like it's very long. It's actually very short. Visual effects busted out the back of it. There's so many things like that. I think the biggest thing for me was making sure that it was haunting.

Yeah, I think that's very clear.

One final question. Last season, you told us that you were team Black all in, Reniera, all the way. How are you feeling now?

I am still team Black. Yeah.

Is there slightly more? Did I hear some hesitation in your voice?

No, I think I'm still team Black. I've always been team Black. I think Reniera will come around. I think she's going to come around. I feel her getting a little out of hand, and I'm hoping that she finds her way. I'm hoping that I'm wrong, that she's not going in the direction it feels like she's going in, but I feel like I relate to her the most. Wait, what team are you guys right now?

Team Black still.

Yeah, I'm team Black with notes. You're Black.

With notes. Are Are you seeing what I'm seeing with Reniera? Are you feeling it?

I mean, Reniera walked into the sept and was like, Let's end this. Here's my deal. You give me everything.

It's cool, right? Also, did my dad hate me?

Yeah.

It's like, Come on, you can't. Nothing? No intermarriage? No trading?

I don't think. I don't think Reniera took the class in college of how to strike a deal. No, for sure, no. Allison and Reniera both through this. They both want to be number one in everyone's eyes because they've always been overlooked. So neither of them wants to compromise because they're both tired of compromising.

It's tragic. It's tragic. Well, Geena, thank you so much for coming back on this show. It's always such a pleasure to hear your insights.

Thank you. You, too. I love your show. You guys are doing such a great job. Oh, thank you.

Oh, thank you.

I love Geeta. She's my favorite.

I mean, this is true of everyone that we've had on.

That's true. They are all of our favorites. Okay, Jason, before we go, we need to do our weekly check-ins. First up, who is winning this week? Team Green or Team Black?

Oh, gosh. I think it's a push. Okay. Obviously, Green's armies are in the march. At the same time, they lost Haren Hall. They don't know about it. Yeah. So I'm going to say it's a push. Who do you think is winning?

I also am probably unrealistically hopeful about the potential alliance here between Green era and Allison. I think team Friendship is winning, and I'm so happy about that. So unfortunately, we are not marking anything off on our Bingo cards this week, but here's hoping for Bingo next week. We'll see.

That's all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us next Sunday night right after episode 4 airs on HBO and Max.

If you like what you're hearing, we would love it if you would leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragons social media handles, and you can find me at grettamjohnsenn on X and Instagram.

You could find me at netw3rk on X and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson.

And Jason Concepcion. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jay-Ann Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannes Brown, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija, and Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira.

Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaater. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaater, and myself.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstad, Allison Cohen, and Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max podcast team.

Thanks for listening.

Tells take on a life of their own.

My weeds, unless they are tended. We'll tend to them then.