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My bedroom was a sanctuary for me growing up. When I was twelve, I took everything out of the room and I painted the wall's gold. And when I got home from school, when I had a hard day, I would, first of all, raid my mom's closet for underwriters wear and dresses and take them all to my room. And on one of my walls in my bedroom was a massive mirror that covered the entire wall. And I would dress up in my mom's clothes in front of my mirror, and I would just blare Mariah Carey, Rihanna, Gargar, Beyoncé, all the divas. I'd dance for hours in front of the mirror and just become someone different and escape. But also I felt like a queen. And many, many years after my teens in my golden room, it all came back to me when I was making my album Gloria. I wrote this song Unholy, and I I knew that I was ready to express a sexuality that I hadn't expressed in my career yet.

The thought of walking out onto these stages and in these arenas in front of everyone, it was so scary.

So I turned to the color gold. Most importantly, my stage was gold. And every night when I came up on stage, even though I was petrified and felt like I was sharing my deepest, darkest secrets with the audience every night, I felt like I was in my bedroom. That color gold and seeing everyone dressed in gold all around me It made me feel safe. Welcome to the Pink House. I'm Sam Smith, and This podcast is about the people and places that make us who we are. It's based on my own childhood home, which was set back in the woodlands of a small English village. I lived on a hill, actually, on the highest point of Cambridgeshire in England. It was beautiful, and my house was quite literally a pink house. It was such a magical place for me. It was a space of total warmth and love and a safe space for me to find my voice and to figure out who I was. It's the place I still think of when I hear the word home. That pink house has inspired me to talk to others about what spaces brought them comfort as they came of age.

Each week, I'm going to bring you a conversation with an incredible person who I admire about how their communities have shaped their identity. We're going to hear stories of belonging, chosen families, and the journeys we take to become who we are destined to be. Today's episode is focused on that room in the house where your dreams flourish and your imagination can grow. The space where the walls you've built crumble and your truest self exists. This episode is about the bedroom. Our guest today has acted in many different roles in all types stories, but his favorite stories were the ones he created in his bedroom, where he was free to be his authentic self. I'm so deeply honored to have the incredible Elliot Page on the show today. Elliot is an Academy Award nominated actor, producer, and writer. He has built an unbelievable career throughout his lifetime, starting at the tender age of 10. His breakout role in the film Juno quickly made him one of the most recognizable names in film. He has over 70 award nominations, which is mad, and has made his mark as a queer icon and movie star. But he's also given the world a unique insight into his life, his personal life.

Elliot's fantastic memoir, Pageboy, came out in 2023 and became a New York Times bestseller. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Pink House, Elliot.

Thank you so much for having me. I feel so grateful to be here.

Oh, pleasure. Honestly, it's an honor to have you here, and it's lovely to meet you. You too. We have some mutual friends. Yes. I've heard beautiful things, so it's really nice to meet you.

Back at you.

Thank you. The backdrop of today's conversation is the bedroom. This is a wholesome bedroom conversation. We're delving into the sanctity of the first space where many of us truly discovered ourselves as a kid. My bedroom, I painted gold when I was a kid, and I got rid of my bed and had this huge mirror across the wall, and I would basically get in my mom's bra and knickers and just dance every night after school when I had a shit day.

Oh my God, I love it.

But I know that you talk about your childhood and about your imagination, and you talk about something called private play.

Private play.

Private play in your book. Can you talk to me about that and about what that meant to you as a child?

Yeah, gosh. That was probably one of my favorite things to do. I'd announced it like, I'm going to go have private play, which meant I'm just going to go play by myself. Please don't bother me, mom. She was probably like, Thank God, leave me alone. I'm tired. In that space, I do feel that it was very much this opportunity where I really got to explore who I was. In my imaginary games, that was exactly how I saw myself, not even in the sense of a wishing, just in the sense of being. That just was me being that then in that moment. It was reality, yeah. 100%. Whether that was building forts and embodying characters and going on adventures or with action figures or what have you. I think ultimately it probably helped with acting on some level because there was something very performative about it. As a kid, those were probably some of the most very true and and honest and special moments that I cherish.

That's amazing. I love the whole announcing to the family that this is my time. I think that's an incredible thing. At that age, to be able to say, These are my boundaries. Let me be over here.

That's nice. Yeah. I think a part of it was probably to get away from certain eyes or being seen in a certain way and being able to exist as my full self, even for those brief moments.

That's beautiful. I'm happy that you got that as a kid. It's so special.

And you, too. And was that something you were doing and your mom was aware of and supportive, or was that something that felt secretive to you?

Weirdly, The only annoyance I remember from my parents was my mom was just pissed off because she couldn't find any of her bras.

And they would always be with me.

So my mom was... There was maybe a little bit of annoyance with the clothing part of taking the clothes, but it was celebrated. I was very, very lucky. It was celebrated, but it was private. I closed the door and I got to dance and dress up and be who I wanted to be. I remember always carrying around a chapstick in school because it made me feel closer in a weird way to my gender. I would put it on when I was nervous or anxious or being bullied and stuff, and it felt like I was going to the bathroom to put my makeup on. Some of the girls that I was friends with in school. So, yeah, no, it was an important thing for me. But did you have a moment when you came out?

Well, the first time I tried to say anything was to my mom when I was 15, and she yelled at me, That doesn't exist. So that was... I'm sorry. Bless her. No, it's okay. And we love my mom. She's gone through her journey. There's that amazing, which my mom read, Sarah Schulman book called Ties That Bind. Have you read it? It's fantastic. It's about familial homophobia and its consequences. Sure, it's a personal crisis, and it's also societal crisis. I see all the reasons why my mom responded that way. But it was really unfortunate. It affected me badly. It affected her negatively, our relationship. But it wasn't until really I was 20 when I first really fell in love with a woman, and that was how I came out. I just was like, I'm in love with this woman. And then obviously not publicly for years and years later.

Your mom, during this whole period, how did you, from that moment when you were 15 with her, where you tried to come out, how did you repair your relationship with her?

It was difficult for a while, is the honest truth. It was more we just... I could tell she wasn't happy about it, but we just didn't really talk about it.

About your transition?

No, no. This is just queerness. Okay. And it did cause distance between us. There was years in my 20s where I really did not go home very much. I did not see my parents a whole lot. I think for my mother, a lot of it was her on her own time sitting with whatever it was that was stopping her from just embracing me or the relationship I was in that was a huge part of my life. I think we've talked about those moments and periods in time since, which has been very helpful in healing. But I think a lot of it was my mom learning more, having more exposure. By the time I was about 26, 27, she was much more really had made a huge shift. When I came out as trans and told her about the surgery, she was happy for me and supportive, and she's definitely seen me struggle a lot. Now sees her kid happier than ever and now is a parent who educates herself about trans issues. Yeah, been open to having not easy conversations.

Was it other than your private play, was there was film a big part of your life as a kid? Was music a big part of your life? What were the things that were your friends in those moments?

When I was a properly When I was a little kid, I was very stereotypical little boy. I liked sports. I was a very active big soccer player, video games. Sure, I always loved movies. I liked acting out my favorite movies in my bedroom. But I suppose music was really soothing to me when I was a little kid. I remember being absolutely obsessed with Moonlight Sonata.

I have no idea what this is.

Moonlight Sonata, Beethoven. You'd go, Oh, that's Moonlight Sonata, 100%. But like, very emo.

Yeah, well, not very chic.

Oh.

This is a very chic, chic.

But I'm like, Oh, I was really like, beautiful, quiet, emotional music. I'm like, Oh, actually, when I was a little kid, I really gravitated towards that.

Oh, that's beautiful. I felt like we were maybe opposites. I was like, Mariah Carey diva, let's get out. I think you were very...

I was very like... Peaceful. You needed a bit of peace.

I think that's beautiful.

But in terms of music and art and film, that really moved me. That came more in my teen years. I think a lot of that was due to meeting so many people through becoming an actor.

In school and when you were working in those environments, did you meet people that were like-minded queer people that made you feel a bit less alone?

In retrospect, in terms of the friends that I was making in, say, grade 10, no one necessarily was speaking of queerness. Nobody at least as far as I knew in my big high school in grade 10, was out, not one kid. But I feel the people that I was connecting with queerness, I was a part of that for sure. And those friendships were important, even if we weren't yet able to fully express ourselves to each other. Then, weirdly, when I moved to Toronto for high school, that was not... Kids weren't so... That That wasn't cute. That actually wasn't cute.

I was also bullied in school, and it was really hard. It's really hard. I responded to it through, I think, looking back on it, actually, a little bit of aggression, honestly. I had a friend ask me, actually, last night, Did you fight back in school? I have always said no. Then I had this crazy memory last night of this guy going for me on the bus, and I physically went for him, and I fought back. It made me realize last night that I was a bit more aggressive to the bullies than I thought I was. I also tried to get my own back in my imagination. I would pretend in my head that I was performing at an award show or this big performance of my own music as a pop star, and all of my bullies were watching me. I'd go into my head and imagine that, and it would give me peace. Did you have a place you went to in your head in school just to get through?

Well, it is really funny you say that because I remember being, it would have been junior high school and in a period where I was definitely getting picked on. I remember thinking like, Oh, please, I just want this acting career to work out. So then they look back. I do remember doing that, this vindictive ambition or something. I don't know what...

Or manifestation.

Or manifestation, exactly. But I think there were periods where I was quite lonely, to be honest. But when I lived in Toronto, my best friend Mark, I think it's been these really crucial friendships and people who, even if you don't fully see yourself yet, do manage to see you and love you for who you are. And yeah, he's still one of my... Create safety. Yeah, exactly.

We're going to hear more from Elliot Page after this super quick break. Stay tuned.

Hey, everyone. It's Jackie Danziger. I'm the Vice President of Narrative Content and Production here at Lemonada, and I'm also a producer on the show. We are beyond excited to be debuting the Pink House, and with it, bringing you a message from one of our favorite sponsors, Hello Fresh. With Hello Fresh, you can truly enjoy the taste of the summer, with farm-fresh seasonal recipes delivered right to your door. Everything is pre-portioned and ready to cook, meaning you can skip the trips to the grocery store. Hello Fresh lets you choose from over 50 recipes each week, often offering meals that are ready in just 20 minutes or less, which we know is faster than the takeout you guys are getting. Plus, Hello Fresh meals have a 31% lower carbon footprint than supermarket meals, and their pre-portioned ingredients help reduce food waste by up to 45%. We are huge fans of Hello Fresh here at Lemonada. Our absolute favorites have been ricotta, tomato ravioli with toasted panko, lemony, zucchini, and parsley. And the Hoi Sin sweet potato and mushroom bowls with ginger rice and sriracha soy mayo. Both are so delicious. There's a good reason why those recipes are Hello Fresh Hall of Famers.

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You were thrown into the spotlight with the success of the film, Juno. From what I know from my research and reading about you and having your book, this is where you began experiencing extreme dysphoria and distress at that time during that film. Can Can you tell me a little bit about that time, if you don't mind?

No, I don't mind. And the actual making of the film was a really good experience. It was the promotion? Yeah, it was the how... I barely touched the Hollywood film industry in that way. I was in an Xmen movie previous, but Just a little part, didn't have too much to do. But in that was expected to wear a dress and did it. But this was unparalleled in terms of what had been going on in my life, recognizability, et cetera. Then, yeah, very intense pressure to not be out and to present in this very femme way that made me Yeah, excruciatingly uncomfortable. I think just amplified so much, of course, what I'd already been feeling or carrying, but really took it to a whole new level.

Yeah.

Same with things like photoshoots. I remember thinking, I would rather do this naked than having to put this on and present in this way. I think that's something that people don't understand, just the actual degree and distress that that causes. I don't blame people for being like, Oh, boohoo. Famous. I already had to wear a dress. What you want people to know is, no, this actually is really painful. It just continues to erode you. It gets worse and worse and worse. I didn't fully understand why. In moments, I would have some clarity. I'd shove that clarity away because I was terrified and just tried to fight through it, tried to work through it. First of all, there was nothing to work through. I should have just been able to be myself and how unfortunate, especially when you have a movie with the character that people responded to because she was unique, because of the way she dressed, because she was offering something fresh and new at that time. Then that was me bringing a lot of that to the table and arguably, yes, my queerness, right? Or just getting to start at least somewhat closer to me as a foundation in regards to creating a performance.

But then you go and promote it when they're making their shit ton of money off of it and putting you in a dress and then being like, Wow, you look so beautiful. That's the other thing is you're getting praised and you feel miserable, which you're even expressing to people. Yet they're still pushing you and praising you for rejecting yourself.

It's interesting here. It's saying it's the applause. It's the applause and the you look amazing. There's actually more painful because when you see people's excitement grow, and with that, you know deep down, the more excited people are getting, the higher the cliff you have to jump off eventually. Because deep down, do you know what was coming a little bit that time in the future? You said it spoke to you in your silent moments and you put it to the side, but you could feel that building up a little bit.

Oh, yeah. I mean, ever since... I mean, honestly, literally ever since I can remember. Since probably the earliest memories of those would be like toddler. Some of my clearest, I'd say earliest memories all surrounded how I felt in relation to the I was being told I was versus how I felt.

It's incredibly brave. I really hope that the people that were around you at that time that maybe didn't treat you in the right way or put you in the positions now understand and can see.

Yes. I've had the most beautiful, meaningful, both of us sobbing, crying. It was also people who did care about me. I think in their mind, I was coming from a place where I was just nervous for you. I wanted the best for you in your career and da, da, da, da. I think a part of that is true. It's not right and it's completely unfortunate. But I think I can appreciate where certain people were coming from and that people don't get it. Yeah.

It's hard not fully understanding what's going on at the time for you, putting certain things aside, dealing with all of that trauma. But then also once you get past all of it, you've also got to teach people and bring them along the journey. That's what I mean about grace. We have to have a lot of it in what we do. After Juneau, you went off-grid to live in an ecovillage in Oregon. Can you please tell me about this? It sounds to a Brit, this is a new idea. I've never heard this in my life, really.

Oh, lots of Well, I went to study permaculture design and ecovillage development. It was after Juneau had come out, that really intense awards period. But that was like that. Yeah, the first chunk of time I got to just, yeah, choose to do something specifically for myself in that period. I think the property in the building used to be in a camp or like Boy Scout camp. It was dorm building. You didn't have fully enclosed walls. The top was open, so there wasn't a tremendous amount of privacy. And just shared showers and you peed in a bucket, like your end was composted. And you'd eat together and most of the food was grown there, very nearby.

Wow, that's amazing. And you turned up and no one really knew who you were. And if they did, they just let you be.

Yeah, people were very chill. And In general, I was very interested in sustainable living and permaculture and also wanted to get, I think, very far away. Yeah, I think it was amazing. Somewhere where it really didn't matter what you were or you didn't need a shower if he didn't want it. I think there was, of course, definitely a healing aspect to it.

And did it do that? Was it not fully, but Did it help?

It did. I think it was such a crucial moment. It taught me a lot. I think it was definitely hard to leave because of how pure and more connected I was able to feel. It was a really incredibly special experience.

It's time for a quick break, but don't worry, more with Elia in just a bit.

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Org. That's hopelab. Org.

Again, talking about your private play. It's a common theme. When you say this episode's about the bedroom, it's really just about a place that you can go to. It sounds like you have constantly gone back to that place of private play throughout your life. Many years later, you went to a cabin and you lived there for a bit. This cabin in Nova Scotia sounds like it was one of the most important moments of private time and play for you as a person.

Yeah. This time in particular was during the pandemic, and I drove up to Nova Scotia and I went to this cabin. It feels so awkward to talk about because obviously there was such brutal pain and hardship during the pandemic. People who could not go drive up to Nova Scotia and sit in a cabin who had to work, and dealt with the consequences of that. But the truth is, yes, that period gave me time and a a certain amount of time that, quite frankly, I couldn't recall the last time I had. It was actually even also timed with two to call a filmmaker and drop out of a film that I loved the script, and I remember I was in such distress thinking, I can't do this anymore. I actually can't go play that character. I can't play the clothes that that character has to wear. In such extreme turmoil about it, I just was like, Elliot, okay, we really need to figure out what's going on here because it was just getting… Unbearable. Unbearable, unavoidable. My nifty tactics that I'd use to distract myself, emotionally or what have you, they were growing old. In moments, it was really painful and difficult and extremely uncomfortable.

But I really sat with what I was feeling. I think there was a couple of really pivotal moments. One moment where it did feel so torture. Am I a trans? Am I... And then I stopped myself and sat up and relaxed my shoulders and thought, Wait, why do I have to approach it this way? Why am I so tortured by this question, why can't I actually just sit and breathe and go, Am I? And that was massive. It was like, now is actually is the time in my life where I'm really going to see myself, love myself wholeheartedly for it and make the choices and the decisions that I need to make and that I want to make for my life.

Oh, my God.

That period did allow me for that and the quiet and the isolation. I think when you are a known person, known to people, it's like people are projecting a lot on you, consciously or not. I think I did need to be very alone, not looked at, no camera on me, not in hair and makeup trailer every morning to play that role. I was done. I was just done.

It makes me emotional hearing you talk because you talk about when you're a kid and having those saying to your mom, I need my space. And you did that. And it's almost like those times through your life where you took yourself away. It's almost like it was all preparation for that big time. And you'll have other times, I bet, where you take yourself away and you have words with yourself. But that time, it's like all of your life led to that moment. It sounds to me that your inner, your voice, your adult voice, served you very well in that moment. Even though it was painful, it's just beautiful that you had you to guide you, if you know what I mean. When you left that cabin and came back to life, there was a part of you, the decision was made?

I drove from that cabin to Toronto and got top surgery. Wow. Yeah. Wow. I remember the moment I made the decision, and I remember then starting to figure out if basically I was going to be able to get it done before going back to the next season of Umbrella Academy, which I didn't know what that response was going to be. Steve, the showrunner of Umbrella, is one of the first people I came out to because I was like, How the heck is this going to work? Then had to tell that wonderful person whose film I was going to do. I was like, I'm sorry, I can't do your film, but here's the reason why. It's not just because I changed my mind. There's other stuff going on. Then eventually, it managed to all come together. I remember driving from Nova Scotia to Toronto.

That private time caused you to bloom in this incredible way. I just want to know, how do you feel now?

Mostly, I love being trans, just because I love being trans and I love trans people. That's incredible. I feel so lucky to have had this experience in my life and what it's offered me and what it's given me and how much it's taught me and the community it's allowed me to connect to. But also, yeah, it's an awesome life hack because there's stuff that used to be utterly intolerable that I'll still notice that I'll have a physiological, maybe anxiety, anxious response going into something. Then I get to have this whole brand new experience where it could be something that would just be so trivial to people that for me is so thrilling and exhilarating because I can't believe how I get to feel now. That doesn't mean I don't have difficult days. Sure, there's so much trans joy, and there's also trans rage and trans anxiety, and trans fatigue. But I couldn't imagine and was really worried in the sense that I never, ever thought I'd get to feel the way I feel now.

It's incredible.

I feel very lucky.

I'm so happy for you.

Yeah, and a part of it, I feel so lucky about being trans is that it does make you do painful but important and crucial work on yourself, sitting in the discomfort, the pain, asking difficult questions, all these things that I know have made my life richer.

Since coming out as trans, you had access to gender-affirming care. Congratulations on becoming who you want to be. What are you looking forward to the most?

I just get excited to live of my life. You know how we were speaking to joy in these simple moments? Sometimes it is just about living my life. It's like getting time to hang out with my friends, having the queer trans karaoke night. Having feelings for someone and experience. I went to Lisbon recently because I met this new friend we hadn't met in person yet, Ari Zahra. He's an extraordinary filmmaker. He made this stunning short film called An Avocado Pit. I went to visit Ari. My friend Jess came, too. So it was three trans-mask people hanging out. I remember I fully got emotional at one point, started to cry because I remember thinking, Oh, my God, this is how people feel when they go traveling or like, Anna. This is how people feel. They're present and it's stunning and they're connected to the surroundings and the people. So getting I don't know, spend time with friends and community and just living my life. Because I used to not live my life and feel pretty empty and uncomfortable and awful, or I was working. Yeah. And work, at least I had this thing to focus on.

It got me up. I could get through that. I could do. Actually, when I have space in my life where there's no work and I'm able now to, A, be really be embraced that time. That probably sounds so awful to people who just so desperately want to break from work. So I'm so sorry. But all I mean is my life was just work in a way, and now it really is these moments that are...

Sounds to me like you feel the sun. I felt like I didn't feel the sun on my skin. I think partly because I've covered myself up and the minute I came out as non-binary, I felt like my skin felt the sun for the first time. Now I used to be so scared of summer, and now summer is something I run towards. Oh my God.

Same.

It's beautiful. I'm in my tropical era.

Because I used to couldn't stay in the summer because you just have to be in a T-shirt and see my breasts and the wind's pushing the T-shirt against me and then the breasts are coming. Just horrible. Now I'm like, living for it. I'm like, Let's get sweaty, honey. Just, yes.

Oh, it makes me so happy. If it's okay, I'm going to ask you one last question.

Yeah, of course.

I want to take you back to Little Elia playing alone in your bedroom. What advice would you give to your younger self? In other words, what advice would you give to trans youth who trying to be their authentic selves?

I think one thing I tend to always go back to and still remind myself that that shame you might be feeling, it is not yours. It's theirs. And you are so perfect the way you are. And You deserve to harness that magic, to feel that joy of whatever this magical thing called life is. I have no idea, but it certainly is something. And if there's one thing I'd say, please do everything you can to not let their shame in.

I just want to say thank you so much for sitting with me and telling me all these things and sharing your story. And thank you personally for me, but also just thank you so much because you're changing people's lives and you're a lifeline. So thank you.

Really back at you, Sam. Thank you so much.

Silence and quiet time away from people has been a massive source of healing for me in my life. My job is to stand on stages every night in front of thousands of people, and I sing, and I dance, and they're screaming, and they're shouting. I have a very, very noisy and busy life. So a little bit of peace and quiet every now and then to myself in a room where no one's watching and no one's wanting anything of me is so crucial and important in my life. Like Elia, I went in search of that just before COVID. Life was getting so busy and I'd been touring all through my 20s and traveling around the world, so I was constantly jet lagged. So I decided to move from London back to the countryside because it's where I grew up. I needed to get back to nature. Nature for me throughout my whole life has been like a church. And in that quiet time, I once again found my faith in the trees hiking in the sky, I found myself again. We need that time to take ourselves out the world so we can connect with our most authentic inner voice.

But I get it. We can't all run off to a cabin in the woods like Elia or run to the countryside like I did. If you can, fantastic. But if you can't, maybe it's just a few moments in your bedroom or another quiet space. Whatever it is, you can create your own bedroom in your mind, in your heart, just like my bedroom in the pink house. So I want to take you into the pink house. We're going to walk through the living room, go up the stairs. We're going to go past my mom's room and the bathroom and my sister's room. And then we're going to go into my bedroom. We're going to walk in, we're going to close the door. And in my room, there's a big blank space on the floor. And there was just golden walls all around you. These golden walls are a shield, deflecting any fear of judgment or criticism. Allow yourself to feel safe here for a moment. There's no noise, no people, no opinions, and no shame. Just exist as you are. Thank you so much for visiting me in the Pink House today. And thank you again to my guest, Elliot Page.

The paperback edition of his memoir, Pageboy, is now available.

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Subscribers get exclusive access to premium content with more stories and funny tidbits from the queer icons you hear on this show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. The Pink House is a Lemonada original. I'm your host, Sam Smith. Our producers are Claire Jones and Rachel Leitner. Izara Asaves is our associate producer. Mix and sound designed by Rachel Leitner and Ivan Koryev. Editing by Jackie Danziger, our Vice President of Narrative Content. Executive producers include me, Sam Smith, Stephanie Whittleswax, and Jessica Cordeva-Kramer. Production support from Method Music, Cherry Create, and Jessica Maya Jones. Original Music by APM. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Follow the Pinkhouse wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. In addition to this podcast, I'm in the process of establishing the Pink House as a charitable foundation. Named after the home I grew up in, the Pink House Charity is intended to provide support for people within the LGBTQIA+ community. The Pink House is about building a better, safer world for all of us. I can't wait to share more with you. Thank you so much for listening.

See you next week. Bye.