Support for the show comes from Mercury. Financial operations are needlessly complex. With Mercury, you can simplify them with banking and software that power your critical financial workflows, all within the one thing every business needs, a bank account. With new bill pay and accounting integrations, you can pay bills faster, stay in control of company spend, and speed up reconciliation. Apply in minutes at mercury. Com. Mercury, the art of simplified finances.

Support for this podcast comes from Huntress. Keeping your data safe is important. However, if you're a small business owner, then protecting the information of yourself, your company, and your workers is vital. In comes Huntress. Huntress is where fully managed cyber security meets human expertise. They offer a revolutionary approach to manage security that isn't all about tech. It's about real people providing real defense. When threats arise or issues occur, their team of seasoned cyber experts is ready 24 hours a day, 65 days a year for support. Visit huntress. Com/provg to start a free trial or learn more.

Episode 309. 309 is the area code covering parts of Illinois. In 1909, CondeNast was founded. Choose to it. My wife called me in a panic and said, I found these weird SNM and bondage magazines under our son's bed. She said, What should we do? I'm like, It's obvious what we should do. She said, Well, what? I said, Spank them. Go, go, go. Welcome to the 309th episode of the Prop G-Pod. In today's episode, we speak with Chris Voss, the CEO and co founder of Black Swan Group and former lead FBI Hostage Negotiator. Jesus, that's a good rep. What do you do? I'm the Lead FBI Hostage Negotiator. Okay. We are massive fans of Chris, and here's his take on how negotiation plays into all aspects of our lives, including politics, war, and relationships. But first, we're bringing back our favorite, our gangster, the emerging political voice, the leader, the pundit we need now, Jessica Tarlov, to hear what happens next now that Biden has officially dropped out of the presidential race. So, Jessica, a slow news week. I'm not sure what we're going to talk about here, but let's start with, I found this story that you might find interesting, and that is the President has actually dropped out of the race.

This woman named Kamala Harris has raised an astounding $81 million within the first 24 hours of announcing her bid for President. 60% of the donors are first-time donors in this race. I think, actually, that's the most impressive stat. Jessica, what's going on here? What's going on here? What are your thoughts?

I thought coming back from Milwaukee, I would get a weekend, right? We had the assassination attempt, then we had everything that went on in the RNC, Trump speaking, et cetera. I thought, Oh, maybe I'll chill out. I made a couple of small people. I'll go with them. I hang in the park. The sprinklers are on. Very exciting in every two-year-old's life. Then Sunday happens. It was this weird moment where I thought, Does Mark Halpern actually know something again because he was the first reporter out on Twitter on Thursday, Friday, saying, It's Sunday. We were all like, What are you talking about? How does Mark Halpern have information that Democratic leaning reporters don't have, someone less disgraced doesn't have? Some and less disgrace doesn't have. I still don't believe that Mark Halpern necessarily had inside information. The story the campaign is giving that Biden basically decided on his own that he couldn't do this anymore and that it wasn't going to stop the onslaught. But remarkable few days in American politics. What's going on is we've all been coconut pilled now. I'm not a TikTok person. I have fear of the Chinese Communist Party being in my phone, though I'm sure they're in there for other reasons.

I just know that I spend hours and hours and hours on it. But I have taken a look and the kids are gone crazy for her. Amazing. I do, as an awkward person myself, appreciate that online, awkward people can be cool, and you're seeing that really coming to life for her. But I think, writ large, what you're seeing is how desperate the Democratic Party, was to feel inspired and alive again. This doesn't actually have a lot to do with Kamala herself, necessarily. She's still behind in the polls, about five points behind. She was running behind Joe Biden in national polls and in key swing states as well. But everyone needed this shot of adrenaline, and it led them to their pocketbooks. We've got a real election now.

Yeah, it really is striking. I've gotten swallowed up in a net as I thought Biden was going to drop out, and then I wanted a competition on a coronation. I got to be honest, I've been this Kamala mania has swept over me, and I'm almost now on the Kamala train, like, Let's get on it. I have been really surprised and inspired. It's a little bit like living in London, and that is, it feels as if it's been so gray, so depressing for six months, and then the sun comes out, and you realize just what an amazing city it is. I feel like the sun came out Monday morning, and we just realized what an amazing country party. All of a sudden, it feels like everything is better and looks better. It's like literally the sun came out. What are your thoughts?

I'm loathe to make a comparison because we all know how it turned out. But what I'm feeling and what my text messages are indicating and what I'm reading online is the enthusiasm that women felt about Hillary Clinton in 2016. I walked around in my tank top that said, A woman's place is in the White House. I went to vote with my dad. There was this belief that we could change as a country. Kamala Harris represents an ability to change. If we do take that route. It goes in all sorts of different directions. She is meaningful to a ton of different demographic groups, and they've all really embraced her. I'm not sure about how that manifestsats actually on election day, and she has 105 days or 104 days now, I think, to redefine herself, because the definition that the voters who determine these elections have is not good. This is not a woman that plays well naturally in a Pennsylvania, in a Michigan, in a Wisconsin. She's bringing new spirit and life to the board, especially if she picks Mar Kelly out of Arizona. Maybe that's on the board. In Georgia, they're going bananas for her.

Maybe we'll talk about North Carolina again. If Roy Cooper, who's the governor there, is her running mate. But you are seeing a joyfulness and a hope of possibility and change. There's been ton of incredibly creative memes that are out there. But there's one that has four boxes, and it has Obama in the cool, I don't know what the term is, but the filter that the Hope and Change poster was in, like the blue, gray, so I read. It says hope, and then it has hate over Donald Trump, and then it has heal over Joe Biden, and then it has grow over Kamala Harris. I think people are feeling the potential for that growth. There's opportunity, I think, to ignore a lot of her past policy positions. She has to get out there and just say, You've heard a lot from me before. I have talked about things that are impractical. I've talked about Medicare for All. I have talked about giving free health could pull off a total political miracle.You said something that I want to double-click and that is she doesn't play well in some of the swing states. Why is that? Because my impression is she's actually more moderate or conservative than a lot of people, I think, initially think that they... I mean, it categorize her as a California Democrat, very liberal. She's actually an attorney general. I think on economic issues, she's pretty moderate. Why doesn't she play well?Well, she ran away from her attorney general background and more towards her liberal side for the 2020 primary. She just got boxed out by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who... Bernie Sanders is the original thing, right? He's like the OG democratic Socialist grump. He has his constituency. I think Elizabeth Warren is one of the more talented politicians we've ever seen. Yeah, we're in an incredible race. I went to her rally in Washington Square Park, and her policies were always to the left of where I was. I was wearing her T-shirt. I wanted to rip it off, burn my bra, do all the things. She just gets you going like that. Kamala didn't really have a lane. She couldn't get to where Amy Klobuchar or Pete Buttijage was. People were, I should say, people actually from the Midwest advocating for that common sense stuff. She hasn't run actually as a super cop before. She's only run away from it. The kudos that she's gotten the most from her time in the Senate was when she was leaning into, I'm the one who can prosecute the case. Her her drilling of Bill Barr, her drilling of Brett Kavanaugh.I think that's a lot of the reason that she hasn't played well in those more moderate places. I'm sure there is room as well for sexism and racism in this. I mean, we've already seen it bubbling up, and I was reading before we jumped on the line, a missive out of meeting with Congressional Republicans and Republican senators saying, Do not call her a DEI hire. Do not do it. Talk about policies. We can win this on policy. But you already have tape of JD Vance. He called her a crazy cat lady. If they're going to run on a platform of- Alone with cats.Deeply unhappy, alone with no kids and cats. Yeah. Okay.Right. When she has, I would say one of the more vibrant-looking political marriages I've ever witnessed, people kissing on the mouth and looking like they love it. She has two step kids. If they're going to be running on a platform of, I'm not totally opposed to abortion ban, and you know what? We should look into IVF, and then you're calling her a lonely cat lady. That's not a recipe for success.When I heard the news, that was a mix of excitement, sadness, relief, almost like a cathartic release. The other emotion I had was one of intense gratitude towards Secretary Clinton. While she didn't shatter the glass ceiling, I think she put enough cracks in it that America has finally decided. I think a lot of people look back and think, You know what? We should have voted for the woman. I think that America really is ready. I hate to go into identity politics, but it is going to play a role here. But I think it's going to be a positive here. I think America has decided it's time, or a lot do you think are the core messages she should hone in on?That nothing changes. That we are here to finish the job and that she was proud to serve with Joe Biden. I think that Joe Biden should be one of the most commonly used phrases out of her mouth, because Joe Biden is personally a lot more popular than he is politically to people. They were never able to demonize him. They were never able to convince people that he was actually a mob boss. I'm sure James Comer has been crying for 48 hours straight since the announcement that he won't get have his Hunter Biden investigations anymore, and all of that has evaporated. But the American public loves Joe Biden. I think there's opportunity also to frame the economy, which you saidsage green. That's so, Caroline. And was pleased by the price point. Fill your closet with timeless pieces you'll be wearing for summers to come with Quince. Go to quince. Com/propg for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince. Com/propg to get free shipping and 365 day returns.Quince. Com/propg.So Support for this podcast comes from Vanta. Whether you're starting or scaling your company's security program, demonstrating top-notch security practices and establishing trust is more important than ever. Vanta automates compliance for SOC 2 ISO 27001 and more are saving you time and money while helping you build customer trust. Plus, you can streamline security reviews by automating questionnaires and demonstrating your security posture with a customer-facing trust center all powered by Vanta AI. Over 7,000 global companies like Atlassian, Flow Health, and Quora use Vanta to manage risk and proof security in real-time. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta. Com/vox. That's vanta. Com/vox for $1,000 off.Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Chris Voss, the CEO and co founder of Black Swan Group and former lead FBI hostage negotiator. Chris, where does this podcast find you?I'm at my house in Vegas.You live in Vegas?I'm willing to admit that.Let's jump right into it. You tweeted recently, As a lead former hostage negotiator in the FBI, I will say with certainty that the level of manipulation by the mainstream media should not be overlooked when we look back on what exactly led to this moment and you were referring to the failed attempted assassination of Trump. What did you mean by that?Well, principally, I thought about when I put that up and also since... In point of fact, I believe the media professional wants to go. And it's across the board. It's really become accepted in any interview. Somebody sticks a microphone in somebody's face and said, Can you believe so-and-so said this about you? And it's a little bit like, I remember doing this when I was in college, trying to instigate a couple of my friends into getting into confrontation. Can you believe that he said that? Are you going to take that? This instigating that comes from the side And if we have some reliance on the media overall, we don't think of them as instigators. Then just like when I was listening to my friend's ear, people say themselves, Yeah, that's right. And it's an insight meant. Unfortunately, they're instigators. When I was with T. F. E. I, we were preparing for a gathering in the G20 in Canada, I believe it was at the time. And they're talking about the preparations for the predictable demonstrations. And so in preparation for the crowd, for the gathering, they said, you put a thousand peaceful demonstrators someplace, a thousand.And then you just put six professional instigators around in strategic locations. And it'll take a peaceful demonstration to turn them into a violent mob. Six people. And I've really been thinking about this a lot. Unfortunately, the media's professional instigators, and they look for the opportunity to call gasoline on smolding coals and hopefully, turn it into a flame. And point of fact, it's a contributing factor.I like the framing there that they're in the business of instigating or taking the heat up, not taking it down. I would say that's the same as true online, but even worse. If I look at my comments in my feed on social media platforms, it feels like it's a bunch of people in the third grade surrounding two kids who are barely even having words and then screaming, fight, fight, fight. I wonder, and I'm curious what your thoughts are, that if I were a bad actor, a foreign entity, the GRU or the CCP, I would absolutely employ the strategy to just get us fighting with each other.Yeah, we do it. There are no markets of Queensbury rules on international combat. I mean, the intelligence agency is globally are always trying to stir up discontent within the camps of the enemy to keep them confused so that they don't get rallied against us.So let's get back to, how do you think the US government should be negotiating with nations at war? What advice would you have? Biden has essentially said that he's going to focus a lot of his energy on his remaining time on trying to end the war in the Middle East and bring the hostages home. What advice would you have for him, or generally speaking in the US, as it tries to negotiate with nations that they're They're at war?Everything you've to now has been stupid. Unfortunately, argument has become a synonym for negotiation, and it's a horrible synonym. It shouldn't be there. People just want to make arguments. And that's advocated principally by lourdes. Lourdes want to make arguments to call themselves negotiators. We don't have any better models in many cases other than lourdes to make arguments. And great negotiation is invisible, so you don't see it. The only time Biden ever did anything foreign policy-wise that I was really impressed by, and he did it very early in administration. So what a government should do is not let the other side get caught off guard if you're going to say something they don't like. Biden was going to make a statement recognizing the genocide of the Armenians, I believe, which is largely placed at... The blame was placed at the feet of the Turks. And what he did was he let the leader of Turkey know it was coming. We're going to say this. You're not going to like it. Don't want you to get caught off guard by it. And the President of Turkey's response was remarkably muted. There are professional instigators in the media said, Can you believe he said that?What do you think about Biden saying this, placing his blame on him? And he'd been more than advanced. So He wasn't upset about it. It didn't turn into a flame that the media was trying to get it to turn into, the argument, the kids around the other kids in the school yard going, fight, fight, fight. And very few politicians have really taken a cue from that to at least, if you're going to say something that your counterparts aren't going to like, then don't let them get caught off guard. Atcharge of the investments. But what I think people get really upset with is they've been bad for a year and they've been getting worse. You waited until now to tell me. Do you Do you think a lot of this can be as relevant as with personal relationships?Yeah, absolutely. I see all this is relevant to personal relationships. A negotiation is relevant to personal relationships. We hear all the time, Never Split the Difference? It's a great parenting book. I hear back from women that for the first time, it feels like my husband's listening to me. And then, so first of all, what does it mean to actually listen? And then, secondly, how do we eliminate the surprises from the other side? People are remarkably resilient, and they're not getting caught off guard. And it doesn't take a lot. And fortunately, people blindside other people not out of bad intent because they don't know how to tell the truth. Or they're trying to fix the problem so that it never hits the other person. So it's never, it's rarely, is it as a result of a bad heart, if you will? These are mistakes of the head, not of the heart, because people just don't know. If I could just warn you it was coming, then you could brace yourself.I want to put forward a thesis. I want to go back to geopolitics and have you respond to it. I think that not only when you're negotiating, you have to recognize you're not just negotiating on the current situation, but you're setting a tone on atmospherics or incentives for future negotiations. The thing that just really bothered me about the Brittany Griner deal was I thought, I personally believe the moment we cut that deal and traded, it was loosely called or accurately called, The Merchant of Death, Victor Boot, that basically that day, Evan Gershkowitch was taken prisoner, that we created an incentive structure, that we would trade, quite frankly, someone more, I don't want to say valuable, but that had or should have been in prison a lot longer, that we just set up an incentive such that we guaranteed more Americans would be falsely imprisoned. What are your thoughts?Well, so first of all, Brittany Griner was absolutely entitled to have the US government come to her aid. When I was the lead international kidnapping negotiator, and Brittany Griner was an illegal detention as opposed to kidnapping, there are differences. But in any event, No American citizens should be abandoned overseas, no matter how they got themselves into it. In international kidnapping, people were mostly just doing it. Ill-advised behavior. They were putting themselves in really bad positions, trying to trade on a form of camaraderie internationally that was never there. And I don't believe that Brittany Grunert, she may have made a minor mistake, but she's entitled to have the government come to her aid and do everything it can for it. So first point there, I'm absolutely in support of the government helping her. So now let's get on to the stupidity of the trade. Once the instigators got gone in the media, then And increased pressure on the Biden administration, Cut a deal, cut a deal, cut a deal. Then it's a matter of patience. When the other side is more patient than you are, and the instigators are putting the heat on you, then they can lay back.And I think it was a poor trade. And I don't think the Biden administration is holding the monopoly on bad trades. The Obama administration made bad trades. The Trump administration made bad trips. I thought it was horrible that... I thought they beat us in the deal when the AWAL soldier, the Obama administration, swapped out five members of the Taliban who were being held in Guantanamo for an American soldier who'd gone AWAL. Now, that American soldier deserved help regardless of how he went AWAL. It was a bad trade. The Trump administration outdead the Obama administration when they put 5,000 Taliban back on the battlefield because they were in a hurry to make a deal. Anytime a government is in a hurry to make a deal, all the other side has to do is sit back and let Tom work against them. And so the Brittany Grinder thing was no different. It was a bad trade. And then the nature of the bad trade, not the nature of the fact that the trade was made. The nature of the bad trade is what encouraged the poor negotiation, which sets up further negotiations. One of my favorite movies, Bridge of Spies, Tom Hanks.Love it. We engage in the same trade. And as portrayed in the movie, the American Negotiator, depicted by Tom Hanks, got the better of the other side and got the better of the other side in the Russians. Same type of trait. It wasn't that the negotiations were bad. It was how good were the negotiators at the table? And not only did Tom Hanks, a character, and forgive me for not remembering the real-life name of the guy who I have tremendous admiration for, he turned around and cut great deals whatever it might be. but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

could pull off a total political miracle.

You said something that I want to double-click and that is she doesn't play well in some of the swing states. Why is that? Because my impression is she's actually more moderate or conservative than a lot of people, I think, initially think that they... I mean, it categorize her as a California Democrat, very liberal. She's actually an attorney general. I think on economic issues, she's pretty moderate. Why doesn't she play well?

Well, she ran away from her attorney general background and more towards her liberal side for the 2020 primary. She just got boxed out by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who... Bernie Sanders is the original thing, right? He's like the OG democratic Socialist grump. He has his constituency. I think Elizabeth Warren is one of the more talented politicians we've ever seen. Yeah, we're in an incredible race. I went to her rally in Washington Square Park, and her policies were always to the left of where I was. I was wearing her T-shirt. I wanted to rip it off, burn my bra, do all the things. She just gets you going like that. Kamala didn't really have a lane. She couldn't get to where Amy Klobuchar or Pete Buttijage was. People were, I should say, people actually from the Midwest advocating for that common sense stuff. She hasn't run actually as a super cop before. She's only run away from it. The kudos that she's gotten the most from her time in the Senate was when she was leaning into, I'm the one who can prosecute the case. Her her drilling of Bill Barr, her drilling of Brett Kavanaugh.

I think that's a lot of the reason that she hasn't played well in those more moderate places. I'm sure there is room as well for sexism and racism in this. I mean, we've already seen it bubbling up, and I was reading before we jumped on the line, a missive out of meeting with Congressional Republicans and Republican senators saying, Do not call her a DEI hire. Do not do it. Talk about policies. We can win this on policy. But you already have tape of JD Vance. He called her a crazy cat lady. If they're going to run on a platform of- Alone with cats.

Deeply unhappy, alone with no kids and cats. Yeah. Okay.

Right. When she has, I would say one of the more vibrant-looking political marriages I've ever witnessed, people kissing on the mouth and looking like they love it. She has two step kids. If they're going to be running on a platform of, I'm not totally opposed to abortion ban, and you know what? We should look into IVF, and then you're calling her a lonely cat lady. That's not a recipe for success.

When I heard the news, that was a mix of excitement, sadness, relief, almost like a cathartic release. The other emotion I had was one of intense gratitude towards Secretary Clinton. While she didn't shatter the glass ceiling, I think she put enough cracks in it that America has finally decided. I think a lot of people look back and think, You know what? We should have voted for the woman. I think that America really is ready. I hate to go into identity politics, but it is going to play a role here. But I think it's going to be a positive here. I think America has decided it's time, or a lot do you think are the core messages she should hone in on?That nothing changes. That we are here to finish the job and that she was proud to serve with Joe Biden. I think that Joe Biden should be one of the most commonly used phrases out of her mouth, because Joe Biden is personally a lot more popular than he is politically to people. They were never able to demonize him. They were never able to convince people that he was actually a mob boss. I'm sure James Comer has been crying for 48 hours straight since the announcement that he won't get have his Hunter Biden investigations anymore, and all of that has evaporated. But the American public loves Joe Biden. I think there's opportunity also to frame the economy, which you saidsage green. That's so, Caroline. And was pleased by the price point. Fill your closet with timeless pieces you'll be wearing for summers to come with Quince. Go to quince. Com/propg for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince. Com/propg to get free shipping and 365 day returns.Quince. Com/propg.So Support for this podcast comes from Vanta. Whether you're starting or scaling your company's security program, demonstrating top-notch security practices and establishing trust is more important than ever. Vanta automates compliance for SOC 2 ISO 27001 and more are saving you time and money while helping you build customer trust. Plus, you can streamline security reviews by automating questionnaires and demonstrating your security posture with a customer-facing trust center all powered by Vanta AI. Over 7,000 global companies like Atlassian, Flow Health, and Quora use Vanta to manage risk and proof security in real-time. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta. Com/vox. That's vanta. Com/vox for $1,000 off.Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Chris Voss, the CEO and co founder of Black Swan Group and former lead FBI hostage negotiator. Chris, where does this podcast find you?I'm at my house in Vegas.You live in Vegas?I'm willing to admit that.Let's jump right into it. You tweeted recently, As a lead former hostage negotiator in the FBI, I will say with certainty that the level of manipulation by the mainstream media should not be overlooked when we look back on what exactly led to this moment and you were referring to the failed attempted assassination of Trump. What did you mean by that?Well, principally, I thought about when I put that up and also since... In point of fact, I believe the media professional wants to go. And it's across the board. It's really become accepted in any interview. Somebody sticks a microphone in somebody's face and said, Can you believe so-and-so said this about you? And it's a little bit like, I remember doing this when I was in college, trying to instigate a couple of my friends into getting into confrontation. Can you believe that he said that? Are you going to take that? This instigating that comes from the side And if we have some reliance on the media overall, we don't think of them as instigators. Then just like when I was listening to my friend's ear, people say themselves, Yeah, that's right. And it's an insight meant. Unfortunately, they're instigators. When I was with T. F. E. I, we were preparing for a gathering in the G20 in Canada, I believe it was at the time. And they're talking about the preparations for the predictable demonstrations. And so in preparation for the crowd, for the gathering, they said, you put a thousand peaceful demonstrators someplace, a thousand.And then you just put six professional instigators around in strategic locations. And it'll take a peaceful demonstration to turn them into a violent mob. Six people. And I've really been thinking about this a lot. Unfortunately, the media's professional instigators, and they look for the opportunity to call gasoline on smolding coals and hopefully, turn it into a flame. And point of fact, it's a contributing factor.I like the framing there that they're in the business of instigating or taking the heat up, not taking it down. I would say that's the same as true online, but even worse. If I look at my comments in my feed on social media platforms, it feels like it's a bunch of people in the third grade surrounding two kids who are barely even having words and then screaming, fight, fight, fight. I wonder, and I'm curious what your thoughts are, that if I were a bad actor, a foreign entity, the GRU or the CCP, I would absolutely employ the strategy to just get us fighting with each other.Yeah, we do it. There are no markets of Queensbury rules on international combat. I mean, the intelligence agency is globally are always trying to stir up discontent within the camps of the enemy to keep them confused so that they don't get rallied against us.So let's get back to, how do you think the US government should be negotiating with nations at war? What advice would you have? Biden has essentially said that he's going to focus a lot of his energy on his remaining time on trying to end the war in the Middle East and bring the hostages home. What advice would you have for him, or generally speaking in the US, as it tries to negotiate with nations that they're They're at war?Everything you've to now has been stupid. Unfortunately, argument has become a synonym for negotiation, and it's a horrible synonym. It shouldn't be there. People just want to make arguments. And that's advocated principally by lourdes. Lourdes want to make arguments to call themselves negotiators. We don't have any better models in many cases other than lourdes to make arguments. And great negotiation is invisible, so you don't see it. The only time Biden ever did anything foreign policy-wise that I was really impressed by, and he did it very early in administration. So what a government should do is not let the other side get caught off guard if you're going to say something they don't like. Biden was going to make a statement recognizing the genocide of the Armenians, I believe, which is largely placed at... The blame was placed at the feet of the Turks. And what he did was he let the leader of Turkey know it was coming. We're going to say this. You're not going to like it. Don't want you to get caught off guard by it. And the President of Turkey's response was remarkably muted. There are professional instigators in the media said, Can you believe he said that?What do you think about Biden saying this, placing his blame on him? And he'd been more than advanced. So He wasn't upset about it. It didn't turn into a flame that the media was trying to get it to turn into, the argument, the kids around the other kids in the school yard going, fight, fight, fight. And very few politicians have really taken a cue from that to at least, if you're going to say something that your counterparts aren't going to like, then don't let them get caught off guard. Atcharge of the investments. But what I think people get really upset with is they've been bad for a year and they've been getting worse. You waited until now to tell me. Do you Do you think a lot of this can be as relevant as with personal relationships?Yeah, absolutely. I see all this is relevant to personal relationships. A negotiation is relevant to personal relationships. We hear all the time, Never Split the Difference? It's a great parenting book. I hear back from women that for the first time, it feels like my husband's listening to me. And then, so first of all, what does it mean to actually listen? And then, secondly, how do we eliminate the surprises from the other side? People are remarkably resilient, and they're not getting caught off guard. And it doesn't take a lot. And fortunately, people blindside other people not out of bad intent because they don't know how to tell the truth. Or they're trying to fix the problem so that it never hits the other person. So it's never, it's rarely, is it as a result of a bad heart, if you will? These are mistakes of the head, not of the heart, because people just don't know. If I could just warn you it was coming, then you could brace yourself.I want to put forward a thesis. I want to go back to geopolitics and have you respond to it. I think that not only when you're negotiating, you have to recognize you're not just negotiating on the current situation, but you're setting a tone on atmospherics or incentives for future negotiations. The thing that just really bothered me about the Brittany Griner deal was I thought, I personally believe the moment we cut that deal and traded, it was loosely called or accurately called, The Merchant of Death, Victor Boot, that basically that day, Evan Gershkowitch was taken prisoner, that we created an incentive structure, that we would trade, quite frankly, someone more, I don't want to say valuable, but that had or should have been in prison a lot longer, that we just set up an incentive such that we guaranteed more Americans would be falsely imprisoned. What are your thoughts?Well, so first of all, Brittany Griner was absolutely entitled to have the US government come to her aid. When I was the lead international kidnapping negotiator, and Brittany Griner was an illegal detention as opposed to kidnapping, there are differences. But in any event, No American citizens should be abandoned overseas, no matter how they got themselves into it. In international kidnapping, people were mostly just doing it. Ill-advised behavior. They were putting themselves in really bad positions, trying to trade on a form of camaraderie internationally that was never there. And I don't believe that Brittany Grunert, she may have made a minor mistake, but she's entitled to have the government come to her aid and do everything it can for it. So first point there, I'm absolutely in support of the government helping her. So now let's get on to the stupidity of the trade. Once the instigators got gone in the media, then And increased pressure on the Biden administration, Cut a deal, cut a deal, cut a deal. Then it's a matter of patience. When the other side is more patient than you are, and the instigators are putting the heat on you, then they can lay back.And I think it was a poor trade. And I don't think the Biden administration is holding the monopoly on bad trades. The Obama administration made bad trades. The Trump administration made bad trips. I thought it was horrible that... I thought they beat us in the deal when the AWAL soldier, the Obama administration, swapped out five members of the Taliban who were being held in Guantanamo for an American soldier who'd gone AWAL. Now, that American soldier deserved help regardless of how he went AWAL. It was a bad trade. The Trump administration outdead the Obama administration when they put 5,000 Taliban back on the battlefield because they were in a hurry to make a deal. Anytime a government is in a hurry to make a deal, all the other side has to do is sit back and let Tom work against them. And so the Brittany Grinder thing was no different. It was a bad trade. And then the nature of the bad trade, not the nature of the fact that the trade was made. The nature of the bad trade is what encouraged the poor negotiation, which sets up further negotiations. One of my favorite movies, Bridge of Spies, Tom Hanks.Love it. We engage in the same trade. And as portrayed in the movie, the American Negotiator, depicted by Tom Hanks, got the better of the other side and got the better of the other side in the Russians. Same type of trait. It wasn't that the negotiations were bad. It was how good were the negotiators at the table? And not only did Tom Hanks, a character, and forgive me for not remembering the real-life name of the guy who I have tremendous admiration for, he turned around and cut great deals whatever it might be. but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

do you think are the core messages she should hone in on?

That nothing changes. That we are here to finish the job and that she was proud to serve with Joe Biden. I think that Joe Biden should be one of the most commonly used phrases out of her mouth, because Joe Biden is personally a lot more popular than he is politically to people. They were never able to demonize him. They were never able to convince people that he was actually a mob boss. I'm sure James Comer has been crying for 48 hours straight since the announcement that he won't get have his Hunter Biden investigations anymore, and all of that has evaporated. But the American public loves Joe Biden. I think there's opportunity also to frame the economy, which you saidsage green. That's so, Caroline. And was pleased by the price point. Fill your closet with timeless pieces you'll be wearing for summers to come with Quince. Go to quince. Com/propg for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince. Com/propg to get free shipping and 365 day returns.Quince. Com/propg.So Support for this podcast comes from Vanta. Whether you're starting or scaling your company's security program, demonstrating top-notch security practices and establishing trust is more important than ever. Vanta automates compliance for SOC 2 ISO 27001 and more are saving you time and money while helping you build customer trust. Plus, you can streamline security reviews by automating questionnaires and demonstrating your security posture with a customer-facing trust center all powered by Vanta AI. Over 7,000 global companies like Atlassian, Flow Health, and Quora use Vanta to manage risk and proof security in real-time. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta. Com/vox. That's vanta. Com/vox for $1,000 off.Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Chris Voss, the CEO and co founder of Black Swan Group and former lead FBI hostage negotiator. Chris, where does this podcast find you?I'm at my house in Vegas.You live in Vegas?I'm willing to admit that.Let's jump right into it. You tweeted recently, As a lead former hostage negotiator in the FBI, I will say with certainty that the level of manipulation by the mainstream media should not be overlooked when we look back on what exactly led to this moment and you were referring to the failed attempted assassination of Trump. What did you mean by that?Well, principally, I thought about when I put that up and also since... In point of fact, I believe the media professional wants to go. And it's across the board. It's really become accepted in any interview. Somebody sticks a microphone in somebody's face and said, Can you believe so-and-so said this about you? And it's a little bit like, I remember doing this when I was in college, trying to instigate a couple of my friends into getting into confrontation. Can you believe that he said that? Are you going to take that? This instigating that comes from the side And if we have some reliance on the media overall, we don't think of them as instigators. Then just like when I was listening to my friend's ear, people say themselves, Yeah, that's right. And it's an insight meant. Unfortunately, they're instigators. When I was with T. F. E. I, we were preparing for a gathering in the G20 in Canada, I believe it was at the time. And they're talking about the preparations for the predictable demonstrations. And so in preparation for the crowd, for the gathering, they said, you put a thousand peaceful demonstrators someplace, a thousand.And then you just put six professional instigators around in strategic locations. And it'll take a peaceful demonstration to turn them into a violent mob. Six people. And I've really been thinking about this a lot. Unfortunately, the media's professional instigators, and they look for the opportunity to call gasoline on smolding coals and hopefully, turn it into a flame. And point of fact, it's a contributing factor.I like the framing there that they're in the business of instigating or taking the heat up, not taking it down. I would say that's the same as true online, but even worse. If I look at my comments in my feed on social media platforms, it feels like it's a bunch of people in the third grade surrounding two kids who are barely even having words and then screaming, fight, fight, fight. I wonder, and I'm curious what your thoughts are, that if I were a bad actor, a foreign entity, the GRU or the CCP, I would absolutely employ the strategy to just get us fighting with each other.Yeah, we do it. There are no markets of Queensbury rules on international combat. I mean, the intelligence agency is globally are always trying to stir up discontent within the camps of the enemy to keep them confused so that they don't get rallied against us.So let's get back to, how do you think the US government should be negotiating with nations at war? What advice would you have? Biden has essentially said that he's going to focus a lot of his energy on his remaining time on trying to end the war in the Middle East and bring the hostages home. What advice would you have for him, or generally speaking in the US, as it tries to negotiate with nations that they're They're at war?Everything you've to now has been stupid. Unfortunately, argument has become a synonym for negotiation, and it's a horrible synonym. It shouldn't be there. People just want to make arguments. And that's advocated principally by lourdes. Lourdes want to make arguments to call themselves negotiators. We don't have any better models in many cases other than lourdes to make arguments. And great negotiation is invisible, so you don't see it. The only time Biden ever did anything foreign policy-wise that I was really impressed by, and he did it very early in administration. So what a government should do is not let the other side get caught off guard if you're going to say something they don't like. Biden was going to make a statement recognizing the genocide of the Armenians, I believe, which is largely placed at... The blame was placed at the feet of the Turks. And what he did was he let the leader of Turkey know it was coming. We're going to say this. You're not going to like it. Don't want you to get caught off guard by it. And the President of Turkey's response was remarkably muted. There are professional instigators in the media said, Can you believe he said that?What do you think about Biden saying this, placing his blame on him? And he'd been more than advanced. So He wasn't upset about it. It didn't turn into a flame that the media was trying to get it to turn into, the argument, the kids around the other kids in the school yard going, fight, fight, fight. And very few politicians have really taken a cue from that to at least, if you're going to say something that your counterparts aren't going to like, then don't let them get caught off guard. Atcharge of the investments. But what I think people get really upset with is they've been bad for a year and they've been getting worse. You waited until now to tell me. Do you Do you think a lot of this can be as relevant as with personal relationships?Yeah, absolutely. I see all this is relevant to personal relationships. A negotiation is relevant to personal relationships. We hear all the time, Never Split the Difference? It's a great parenting book. I hear back from women that for the first time, it feels like my husband's listening to me. And then, so first of all, what does it mean to actually listen? And then, secondly, how do we eliminate the surprises from the other side? People are remarkably resilient, and they're not getting caught off guard. And it doesn't take a lot. And fortunately, people blindside other people not out of bad intent because they don't know how to tell the truth. Or they're trying to fix the problem so that it never hits the other person. So it's never, it's rarely, is it as a result of a bad heart, if you will? These are mistakes of the head, not of the heart, because people just don't know. If I could just warn you it was coming, then you could brace yourself.I want to put forward a thesis. I want to go back to geopolitics and have you respond to it. I think that not only when you're negotiating, you have to recognize you're not just negotiating on the current situation, but you're setting a tone on atmospherics or incentives for future negotiations. The thing that just really bothered me about the Brittany Griner deal was I thought, I personally believe the moment we cut that deal and traded, it was loosely called or accurately called, The Merchant of Death, Victor Boot, that basically that day, Evan Gershkowitch was taken prisoner, that we created an incentive structure, that we would trade, quite frankly, someone more, I don't want to say valuable, but that had or should have been in prison a lot longer, that we just set up an incentive such that we guaranteed more Americans would be falsely imprisoned. What are your thoughts?Well, so first of all, Brittany Griner was absolutely entitled to have the US government come to her aid. When I was the lead international kidnapping negotiator, and Brittany Griner was an illegal detention as opposed to kidnapping, there are differences. But in any event, No American citizens should be abandoned overseas, no matter how they got themselves into it. In international kidnapping, people were mostly just doing it. Ill-advised behavior. They were putting themselves in really bad positions, trying to trade on a form of camaraderie internationally that was never there. And I don't believe that Brittany Grunert, she may have made a minor mistake, but she's entitled to have the government come to her aid and do everything it can for it. So first point there, I'm absolutely in support of the government helping her. So now let's get on to the stupidity of the trade. Once the instigators got gone in the media, then And increased pressure on the Biden administration, Cut a deal, cut a deal, cut a deal. Then it's a matter of patience. When the other side is more patient than you are, and the instigators are putting the heat on you, then they can lay back.And I think it was a poor trade. And I don't think the Biden administration is holding the monopoly on bad trades. The Obama administration made bad trades. The Trump administration made bad trips. I thought it was horrible that... I thought they beat us in the deal when the AWAL soldier, the Obama administration, swapped out five members of the Taliban who were being held in Guantanamo for an American soldier who'd gone AWAL. Now, that American soldier deserved help regardless of how he went AWAL. It was a bad trade. The Trump administration outdead the Obama administration when they put 5,000 Taliban back on the battlefield because they were in a hurry to make a deal. Anytime a government is in a hurry to make a deal, all the other side has to do is sit back and let Tom work against them. And so the Brittany Grinder thing was no different. It was a bad trade. And then the nature of the bad trade, not the nature of the fact that the trade was made. The nature of the bad trade is what encouraged the poor negotiation, which sets up further negotiations. One of my favorite movies, Bridge of Spies, Tom Hanks.Love it. We engage in the same trade. And as portrayed in the movie, the American Negotiator, depicted by Tom Hanks, got the better of the other side and got the better of the other side in the Russians. Same type of trait. It wasn't that the negotiations were bad. It was how good were the negotiators at the table? And not only did Tom Hanks, a character, and forgive me for not remembering the real-life name of the guy who I have tremendous admiration for, he turned around and cut great deals whatever it might be. but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

sage green. That's so, Caroline. And was pleased by the price point. Fill your closet with timeless pieces you'll be wearing for summers to come with Quince. Go to quince. Com/propg for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince. Com/propg to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

Quince. Com/propg.

So Support for this podcast comes from Vanta. Whether you're starting or scaling your company's security program, demonstrating top-notch security practices and establishing trust is more important than ever. Vanta automates compliance for SOC 2 ISO 27001 and more are saving you time and money while helping you build customer trust. Plus, you can streamline security reviews by automating questionnaires and demonstrating your security posture with a customer-facing trust center all powered by Vanta AI. Over 7,000 global companies like Atlassian, Flow Health, and Quora use Vanta to manage risk and proof security in real-time. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta. Com/vox. That's vanta. Com/vox for $1,000 off.

Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Chris Voss, the CEO and co founder of Black Swan Group and former lead FBI hostage negotiator. Chris, where does this podcast find you?

I'm at my house in Vegas.

You live in Vegas?

I'm willing to admit that.

Let's jump right into it. You tweeted recently, As a lead former hostage negotiator in the FBI, I will say with certainty that the level of manipulation by the mainstream media should not be overlooked when we look back on what exactly led to this moment and you were referring to the failed attempted assassination of Trump. What did you mean by that?

Well, principally, I thought about when I put that up and also since... In point of fact, I believe the media professional wants to go. And it's across the board. It's really become accepted in any interview. Somebody sticks a microphone in somebody's face and said, Can you believe so-and-so said this about you? And it's a little bit like, I remember doing this when I was in college, trying to instigate a couple of my friends into getting into confrontation. Can you believe that he said that? Are you going to take that? This instigating that comes from the side And if we have some reliance on the media overall, we don't think of them as instigators. Then just like when I was listening to my friend's ear, people say themselves, Yeah, that's right. And it's an insight meant. Unfortunately, they're instigators. When I was with T. F. E. I, we were preparing for a gathering in the G20 in Canada, I believe it was at the time. And they're talking about the preparations for the predictable demonstrations. And so in preparation for the crowd, for the gathering, they said, you put a thousand peaceful demonstrators someplace, a thousand.

And then you just put six professional instigators around in strategic locations. And it'll take a peaceful demonstration to turn them into a violent mob. Six people. And I've really been thinking about this a lot. Unfortunately, the media's professional instigators, and they look for the opportunity to call gasoline on smolding coals and hopefully, turn it into a flame. And point of fact, it's a contributing factor.

I like the framing there that they're in the business of instigating or taking the heat up, not taking it down. I would say that's the same as true online, but even worse. If I look at my comments in my feed on social media platforms, it feels like it's a bunch of people in the third grade surrounding two kids who are barely even having words and then screaming, fight, fight, fight. I wonder, and I'm curious what your thoughts are, that if I were a bad actor, a foreign entity, the GRU or the CCP, I would absolutely employ the strategy to just get us fighting with each other.

Yeah, we do it. There are no markets of Queensbury rules on international combat. I mean, the intelligence agency is globally are always trying to stir up discontent within the camps of the enemy to keep them confused so that they don't get rallied against us.

So let's get back to, how do you think the US government should be negotiating with nations at war? What advice would you have? Biden has essentially said that he's going to focus a lot of his energy on his remaining time on trying to end the war in the Middle East and bring the hostages home. What advice would you have for him, or generally speaking in the US, as it tries to negotiate with nations that they're They're at war?

Everything you've to now has been stupid. Unfortunately, argument has become a synonym for negotiation, and it's a horrible synonym. It shouldn't be there. People just want to make arguments. And that's advocated principally by lourdes. Lourdes want to make arguments to call themselves negotiators. We don't have any better models in many cases other than lourdes to make arguments. And great negotiation is invisible, so you don't see it. The only time Biden ever did anything foreign policy-wise that I was really impressed by, and he did it very early in administration. So what a government should do is not let the other side get caught off guard if you're going to say something they don't like. Biden was going to make a statement recognizing the genocide of the Armenians, I believe, which is largely placed at... The blame was placed at the feet of the Turks. And what he did was he let the leader of Turkey know it was coming. We're going to say this. You're not going to like it. Don't want you to get caught off guard by it. And the President of Turkey's response was remarkably muted. There are professional instigators in the media said, Can you believe he said that?

What do you think about Biden saying this, placing his blame on him? And he'd been more than advanced. So He wasn't upset about it. It didn't turn into a flame that the media was trying to get it to turn into, the argument, the kids around the other kids in the school yard going, fight, fight, fight. And very few politicians have really taken a cue from that to at least, if you're going to say something that your counterparts aren't going to like, then don't let them get caught off guard. Atcharge of the investments. But what I think people get really upset with is they've been bad for a year and they've been getting worse. You waited until now to tell me. Do you Do you think a lot of this can be as relevant as with personal relationships?Yeah, absolutely. I see all this is relevant to personal relationships. A negotiation is relevant to personal relationships. We hear all the time, Never Split the Difference? It's a great parenting book. I hear back from women that for the first time, it feels like my husband's listening to me. And then, so first of all, what does it mean to actually listen? And then, secondly, how do we eliminate the surprises from the other side? People are remarkably resilient, and they're not getting caught off guard. And it doesn't take a lot. And fortunately, people blindside other people not out of bad intent because they don't know how to tell the truth. Or they're trying to fix the problem so that it never hits the other person. So it's never, it's rarely, is it as a result of a bad heart, if you will? These are mistakes of the head, not of the heart, because people just don't know. If I could just warn you it was coming, then you could brace yourself.I want to put forward a thesis. I want to go back to geopolitics and have you respond to it. I think that not only when you're negotiating, you have to recognize you're not just negotiating on the current situation, but you're setting a tone on atmospherics or incentives for future negotiations. The thing that just really bothered me about the Brittany Griner deal was I thought, I personally believe the moment we cut that deal and traded, it was loosely called or accurately called, The Merchant of Death, Victor Boot, that basically that day, Evan Gershkowitch was taken prisoner, that we created an incentive structure, that we would trade, quite frankly, someone more, I don't want to say valuable, but that had or should have been in prison a lot longer, that we just set up an incentive such that we guaranteed more Americans would be falsely imprisoned. What are your thoughts?Well, so first of all, Brittany Griner was absolutely entitled to have the US government come to her aid. When I was the lead international kidnapping negotiator, and Brittany Griner was an illegal detention as opposed to kidnapping, there are differences. But in any event, No American citizens should be abandoned overseas, no matter how they got themselves into it. In international kidnapping, people were mostly just doing it. Ill-advised behavior. They were putting themselves in really bad positions, trying to trade on a form of camaraderie internationally that was never there. And I don't believe that Brittany Grunert, she may have made a minor mistake, but she's entitled to have the government come to her aid and do everything it can for it. So first point there, I'm absolutely in support of the government helping her. So now let's get on to the stupidity of the trade. Once the instigators got gone in the media, then And increased pressure on the Biden administration, Cut a deal, cut a deal, cut a deal. Then it's a matter of patience. When the other side is more patient than you are, and the instigators are putting the heat on you, then they can lay back.And I think it was a poor trade. And I don't think the Biden administration is holding the monopoly on bad trades. The Obama administration made bad trades. The Trump administration made bad trips. I thought it was horrible that... I thought they beat us in the deal when the AWAL soldier, the Obama administration, swapped out five members of the Taliban who were being held in Guantanamo for an American soldier who'd gone AWAL. Now, that American soldier deserved help regardless of how he went AWAL. It was a bad trade. The Trump administration outdead the Obama administration when they put 5,000 Taliban back on the battlefield because they were in a hurry to make a deal. Anytime a government is in a hurry to make a deal, all the other side has to do is sit back and let Tom work against them. And so the Brittany Grinder thing was no different. It was a bad trade. And then the nature of the bad trade, not the nature of the fact that the trade was made. The nature of the bad trade is what encouraged the poor negotiation, which sets up further negotiations. One of my favorite movies, Bridge of Spies, Tom Hanks.Love it. We engage in the same trade. And as portrayed in the movie, the American Negotiator, depicted by Tom Hanks, got the better of the other side and got the better of the other side in the Russians. Same type of trait. It wasn't that the negotiations were bad. It was how good were the negotiators at the table? And not only did Tom Hanks, a character, and forgive me for not remembering the real-life name of the guy who I have tremendous admiration for, he turned around and cut great deals whatever it might be. but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

charge of the investments. But what I think people get really upset with is they've been bad for a year and they've been getting worse. You waited until now to tell me. Do you Do you think a lot of this can be as relevant as with personal relationships?

Yeah, absolutely. I see all this is relevant to personal relationships. A negotiation is relevant to personal relationships. We hear all the time, Never Split the Difference? It's a great parenting book. I hear back from women that for the first time, it feels like my husband's listening to me. And then, so first of all, what does it mean to actually listen? And then, secondly, how do we eliminate the surprises from the other side? People are remarkably resilient, and they're not getting caught off guard. And it doesn't take a lot. And fortunately, people blindside other people not out of bad intent because they don't know how to tell the truth. Or they're trying to fix the problem so that it never hits the other person. So it's never, it's rarely, is it as a result of a bad heart, if you will? These are mistakes of the head, not of the heart, because people just don't know. If I could just warn you it was coming, then you could brace yourself.

I want to put forward a thesis. I want to go back to geopolitics and have you respond to it. I think that not only when you're negotiating, you have to recognize you're not just negotiating on the current situation, but you're setting a tone on atmospherics or incentives for future negotiations. The thing that just really bothered me about the Brittany Griner deal was I thought, I personally believe the moment we cut that deal and traded, it was loosely called or accurately called, The Merchant of Death, Victor Boot, that basically that day, Evan Gershkowitch was taken prisoner, that we created an incentive structure, that we would trade, quite frankly, someone more, I don't want to say valuable, but that had or should have been in prison a lot longer, that we just set up an incentive such that we guaranteed more Americans would be falsely imprisoned. What are your thoughts?

Well, so first of all, Brittany Griner was absolutely entitled to have the US government come to her aid. When I was the lead international kidnapping negotiator, and Brittany Griner was an illegal detention as opposed to kidnapping, there are differences. But in any event, No American citizens should be abandoned overseas, no matter how they got themselves into it. In international kidnapping, people were mostly just doing it. Ill-advised behavior. They were putting themselves in really bad positions, trying to trade on a form of camaraderie internationally that was never there. And I don't believe that Brittany Grunert, she may have made a minor mistake, but she's entitled to have the government come to her aid and do everything it can for it. So first point there, I'm absolutely in support of the government helping her. So now let's get on to the stupidity of the trade. Once the instigators got gone in the media, then And increased pressure on the Biden administration, Cut a deal, cut a deal, cut a deal. Then it's a matter of patience. When the other side is more patient than you are, and the instigators are putting the heat on you, then they can lay back.

And I think it was a poor trade. And I don't think the Biden administration is holding the monopoly on bad trades. The Obama administration made bad trades. The Trump administration made bad trips. I thought it was horrible that... I thought they beat us in the deal when the AWAL soldier, the Obama administration, swapped out five members of the Taliban who were being held in Guantanamo for an American soldier who'd gone AWAL. Now, that American soldier deserved help regardless of how he went AWAL. It was a bad trade. The Trump administration outdead the Obama administration when they put 5,000 Taliban back on the battlefield because they were in a hurry to make a deal. Anytime a government is in a hurry to make a deal, all the other side has to do is sit back and let Tom work against them. And so the Brittany Grinder thing was no different. It was a bad trade. And then the nature of the bad trade, not the nature of the fact that the trade was made. The nature of the bad trade is what encouraged the poor negotiation, which sets up further negotiations. One of my favorite movies, Bridge of Spies, Tom Hanks.

Love it. We engage in the same trade. And as portrayed in the movie, the American Negotiator, depicted by Tom Hanks, got the better of the other side and got the better of the other side in the Russians. Same type of trait. It wasn't that the negotiations were bad. It was how good were the negotiators at the table? And not only did Tom Hanks, a character, and forgive me for not remembering the real-life name of the guy who I have tremendous admiration for, he turned around and cut great deals whatever it might be. but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

whatever it might be. but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be? It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50% of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our Associate Producer, and Jules Burrows is our Technical Director. You for listening to the Propji Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Haen. And please follow our Propji Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.