Hi, I'm Jonathan Capehardt, and I'm excited to share some great news. Both The Saturday Show and The Sunday Show are available as a podcast. Every weekend, I look forward to bringing you the most important political news and the newsmakers who are creating policies that affect your life. For me, it's all about the conversation. That's when news is revealed and understanding begins. Search for Saturdays and Sundays with Jonathan Capehardt and follow. Thanks, June Home, for joining us this hour. All right, you know how sometimes I start the show with something weird? You don't know why I'm bringing it up, but maybe you trust me enough to stick with me through it. Tonight is one of those nights. I fully concede this is going to start off seeming very, very much out of nowhere, but I swear it is on the day's news. If you bear with me for just a second, I will make it make sense. Okay? One of those nights. But here we go. Ready? Meet this guy, the most highly paid Nazi agent in the United States in the lead up to World War II. His job here was to spread propaganda for the Nazis in the United States.

This guy was charged and convicted of being a Nazi agent in the US. He was a relatively well-known figure, so it was relatively big news when he was charged and convicted and made the front page of the New York Times, for example. But the bigger scandal about him was that he got a whole bunch of members of Congress to participate in this propaganda thing that Hitler was paying him to do. Members of Congress were involved with him, lots of them. Then he was indicted a second time, the same guy. The first time, it was for being a Nazi agent. The second time, it was not just for him personally being a Nazi agent. It was a much bigger indictment for him being part of a large, seditious conspiracy against the United States. That is when members of Congress who had been working with him realized that what they had done with him, working with a convicted Nazi agent, they realized what they had done with him was probably going to come out at that trial, and that would be a bad look. So they decided to take action. One particularly powerful senator who was implicated in this thing went to the attorney and basically threatened the attorney general that he would tie the DOJ up in knots.

He would go after the attorney general himself unless the attorney general fired the prosecutor who was leading this case. The senator had a hook for doing this. The prosecutor he wanted fired had just been criticized by the court because when he was prosecuting that Nazi agent, the court said he spoke with basically too much passion, with too much emotion about that defendant in front of the jury. So the prosecutor had been criticized in court. That was the hook they used for going after him. That's not exactly like a capital offense as a prosecutor. Nobody believed that was the real reason the senator wanted the prosecutor fired, but it was something and it made for a good pretext. Sure enough, that corrupt pressure from the senator who himself was implicated in this criminal investigation investigation, it turned out to be enough. It worked. That prosecutor actually was turfed out, taken off the case. By doing that, by taking that prosecutor off that case, the case against the Nazi agent and all the accused seditionists, it was really screwed up. It was delayed and delayed and delayed. It was years. They had to bring in a new prosecutor.

He had to restart the whole investigation, rebuild the whole thing from the ground up, start the whole thing over. It took forever. Finally, the new brought the case to trial, and surprise, it happened again. Why wouldn't it? The senators and members of Congress who were implicated in this plot, this scheme of literally working with a Nazi agent, those members of Congress made a big show out of coming to the courtroom to show their support for the defendants, invading on the floor of the House and the Senate against the prosecution. They supplied lawyers and legal advice to the defendants. They threatened to investigate the prosecutors for bringing the case. They brought all the political pressure they could to bear against that prosecution, tried to, as much as they can, turn it into a circus, try to delegitimize the whole proceedings. They had the right-wing press denounce that prosecution, denounce the prosecutors themselves. But the evidence in the case was strong. The prosecutor in the case ultimately was able to go through the German government's own files about the Nazi secret operations in America. Sure enough, those files showed evidence that two dozen members of Congress and senators had taken part in this scheme, in this lavishly funded Nazi propaganda scheme in the United States.

That's bad news, right? One of those senators, whose name turned up in those files, decided, Wow, this can't stand. This has to be done away with. And so he applied political pressure. He went to the President, he went to the Justice Department, and demanded, again, that the prosecutor be fired, that the second prosecutor be fired. And he was. He was fired as well. The senator demanded that this evidence about which members of Congress had done this, had worked with the Nazis. He demanded that evidence should be shelved and kept secret by the Justice Department, and it was. The prosecutor was fired. The Justice Department just folded. They just killed the whole thing off because of political pressure from power powerful people who were implicated in that very serious criminal case. This is not a hypothetical or a fable or something. It's not a metaphor. I'm not comparing the Nazis to something else. This is actually a thing from history. This was a thing. This was the actual freaking Nazis. This happened in our country. The great sedition trial in the 1940s was about Americans who were working with the Nazis. The way it all resolved in the end is that right-wing members of Congress who themselves were implicated in the plot, they put so much pressure to bear on that prosecution that they slowed it down.

They turned it into the object of a weird conservative pressure campaign, they They smearred the prosecutors. They got them removed from the case. They got them fired. They ultimately dismantled that whole effort to prosecute that as a crime, to expose it and to get accountability. They blew it up. And the defendants who were allegedly involved in that terrible scheme, they all walked, they all got away. I wrote a book about this. I did a podcast about it. I traveled all around the country over the past year, giving talks and interviews about it. And what I found in doing that is when you talk about this story, you pretty quickly get to two things. Number one, wait, what happened to all those people who got away with this? They were all let go. What happened because of that? Season 2 of the podcast comes out next month, and I'll tell you the answer to that. I'll give you the spoiler alert is that it's not good news. But the other legacy of this is the legal scandal. The scandal of politicians using their political power to mess with a justice system, to pervert a prosecution, using their political power to monkey wrench the legal system for their own benefit.

How did they get away with that? How come we don't know that story? I now, after studying this for a long time, firmly believe that we don't know that story because it's a bad news story about our country and its vulnerabilities and its past failures. It is in no one's interest to tell that story. The justice system doesn't want it to be known that they caved to crave in political pressure to scuttle a case. The politicians who applied the pressure or who to the pressure themselves. They don't want to brag about it. The people who got the brunt of it, the people who got fired, who got pushed out of their jobs for doing their jobs in the legal system, the prosecutors and investigators who got fired as part of this corruption of the legal system, those prosecutors and investigators personally were crushed. They were smeared and discredited and destroyed. So they were in no position to tell the story either. And so the story mostly was not told. But we need to know that story and stories like that, because we need to be on notice that that sometimes happens in America, that that's our track record as a country.

That is what has happened in this country when powerful people have been implicated in major crimes. Sometimes what happens is the legal system and the people in it get attacked and get crushed by people with political power. That's how the prosecutions go away because those attacks work and they can be devastating. Unless someone defends the people who are in the legal system trying to make it work. Unless someone defends the justice system when powerful people are implicated in crimes and are charged for it and they go after the justice system because of it. Are we capable of doing that now, today? What is the consequence to the legal system, to the judiciary, when people with political power, people with political power and a personal stake in the outcome of a big case, try to break the system because they don't like that the system is holding them accountable. What happens when they bring political pressure for political reasons to bear on what is supposed to be an independent process? Because prosecutors and judges in the legal system are not supposed to be bullied and threatened and intimidated and pressured and maneuvered out of their jobs because they've brought a prosecution that affects powerful people.

They're really not supposed to be subject to that. If they are subject to that pressure, the scandal ought to be not on the prosecutors and investigators themselves who are getting smeared and attacked and intimidated and threatened. The scandal ought to be on the head of these people who have brought that pressure to bear. It should be a shame they can never live down. It should be certainly disqualifying from any role in American public life. I mean, in the 1940s, it is a scandal that Senator Burton-Wheeler of Montana was involved in a gross Nazi agent's propaganda plot in the United States Senate, and he was. But if you're asking me, it is a bigger scandal that Senator Burton Wheeler got the prosecutors fired who were looking into it, got them fired and professionally destroyed. It's a bigger scandal for him, and frankly, it's a bigger scandal for our justice system. It's a bigger scandal for the US Justice Department, which gave into his pressure. Bringing criminal cases is hard. Bringing criminal cases against people involved in politics is hard, and it is a very high pressure thing for good reason. We rightfully want our criminal justice system and our political system to operate independently from one another almost all of the time.

You shouldn't have to worry about having the cops or the feds sicked on you by your political opponents because you are a person in political office or in a politically sensitive job. You also shouldn't be able to get away with committing crimes because you have political stature or political power of some kind. We don't want the criminal justice system and the political system to interact except when they absolutely have to. Having people in high office committing crimes is very bad. It's very difficult stuff in motion for us as a country. Better to not elect criminals so we never have to deal with it, but occasionally it happens. When it happens, we ought to get real about what it means and where our pinch points and breaking points are as a country. Because what history tells us and what today's news tells us is that when prosecutors Prosecutors and judges and witnesses and juries are involved in a prosecution that targets politically powerful people, they will be targeted with retaliatory pressure and intimidation and ultimately harm. If we are going to protect the rule of law in this country, we must somehow figure out a way to shield them from it.

It is political pressure that is being brought to bear against them. It must be political pressure that is brought to bear to hold that craven influence back and to protect these people. Like meets like. You need the same force up against that force. We need to stop being Palliana about this When powerful people are charged with crimes, corrupt pressure on the legal system happens on their behalf. The pressure happens, and it works. It worked in the 1940s. It is working now. Yes, sometimes there's some stupid hook that they try to use as a pretext for these attacks, but they don't even need that. For the legal system to function fairly, even when politically powerful people are under scrutiny for alleged crimes, we must expect attacks on the people who carry out the work of the legal system in that context, and we must expect that they will need to be protected and defended, and then we must stand up to protect and defend them. We should be making sure that they are not the ones who alone have to stand there and pay the cost. This ought to not be a scandal that they are the ones that pay the cost for.

It should be a scandal on the head of people who are bringing corrupt pressure to bear to break our system to protect powerful people. If we've learned anything from history, we ought to have learned that about the intersection of political power and the law. If we have learned anything, we ought to have learned that. Here's my question. Who's defending Fannie Willis? I was at the courthouse today for the New York State prosecution of Trump in the Hush Money case from the 2016 election. It was another fascinating day in court, Michael Cohen finishing his testimony, prosecution resting their case. The defense brought on a witness who so insulted the judge. The judge stopped everything and cleared the courtroom and reamed him out. It was a fascinating day. There's going to be more testimony tomorrow. Looks like the closing statements might be Tuesday of next week, and then it'll be in the hands of the jury, and I have no idea how that's going to turn out. The jury will have it likely sometime next week. It has been fascinating all along. It will be very interesting to watch the way this wraps up and closing arguments, summations, and then, of course, what the jury tells us after their deliberations.

Nothing against that case, right? But it is astonishing that this is the only one of the indictments against Trump. The Stormy Daniels paid to cover up the affair Hush Money case. This is the only one that's going to go to trial before the election? Really? Wasn't supposed to be the first one. Remember what was going to be the first one? What was going to be the first one was a trial of Donald Trump for the big issue, for him trying to throw out the results of the 2020 election so he could stay in power even though he lost. Prosecutors asked the judge to start this trial two months ago. The first trial date they asked for was in early March, 2024. And had they been able to go ahead with the trial, there would be cameras in court, live broadcasting the proceedings. That's what was going to be first. Georgia prosecutors led by Fannie Willis brought a Wiko indictment against Trump and 18 other alleged co-conspirators for trying to overthrow the 2020 presidential election in Georgia. That was going to be first. What happened to Well, when it emerged, January 2021, that there was a recording of Trump live on the phone demanding that Georgia officials falsify the election results and declare him the winner, when everybody heard that tape, everybody over the age of zero in this country knew that there would have to be a criminal investigation of that.

I mean, that very much sounded like the commission of a very obvious crime on tape. The district attorney in the county where the phone call took place then opened that criminal investigation. Of course she did. How could she not have? But then what happened, right? They opened the floodgates on her in a way that is underappreciated in this country. First thing they did, Republicans in the state legislature decided that for the first time in the history of that state, they needed to give themselves a new power. They needed to give themselves the power to remove prosecutors from their jobs, even in the middle of a case. Now, Republicans in the Georgia State Legislature never wanted that power before now in the whole history of the state. But now that Trump's under investigation for a crime, now they want that new power. This new law giving themselves that power, they passed it in such a rush. It suffered from what you might charitably call constitutional infirmities. They then had to pass it again, so they did. And in so doing, they created a board with all Republican appointees. It has a brand new power under the laws of the state of Georgia to discipline and remove prosecutors in the middle of their cases.

A power they never had before, never wanted before, not before Fannie Willis brought a case against Donald Trump. But that was only the start. Led by one of the Republicans who served as a fake elector in Georgia, Republicans in that state then formed a Georgia Senate Special Committee on Investigations. Oh, what investigations are they wanting to do? They are specifically investigating Fannie Willis. They formed a new committee just for that purpose. The head of that new committee to investigate Fannie Willis went to the Georgia State Republican Convention this weekend to brag about how he's about to subpoena her, to testify under oath and force her to hand over evidence to the Republicans in the Georgia State Senate. They're characterizing it as a financial concern, but he's been very explicit that the financial concern he has is that she's expending financial resources on the Trump prosecution. Republicans at the county level in Georgia are now saying they want to put her office through an audit. A Republican member of Congress from Georgia has filed an ethics complaint against her. The Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee in Washington, Republican congressman Jim Jordan, has opened and investigation of her in Washington as well and has subpoenaed her and is now threatening to hold her in contempt of Congress, threatening to put her in jail.

Now two Republican US senators are jumping in as well. Senators Ron Johnson and Chuck Grassley just announcing a few days ago that they, too, are going to open a new investigation of this Georgia prosecutor, Fannie Willis, this time opening this investigation in the United States Senate. They have created a maelstrom of political harassment and pressure, bringing it down to bear on this one prosecutor like a laser because she brought this case against someone of their party who has political power. This is Republicans using their political power to try to shut off the legal system, to try to shut off the rule of law here so it cannot be used against their guy, against Trump. Yes, they also found them It solves a hook. Burton Wheeler, back in the '40s, he got the Wierich prosecutor taken down when he was criticized for speaking too passionately about the Nazi agent he was prosecuting. It was not the offense that ought to get a prosecutor fired leading the biggest sedition investigation in the history of the country. But it was enough of a hook for his enemies to create a pretext for their attack for getting rid of him.

In Fannie Willis' case, she dated someone on her prosecution team. You've probably heard about that. But you know what? In Georgia, romantic relationships are not grounds for disqualifying prosecutors. The Georgia Supreme Court has held that not only is dating someone, not It's not a conflict in a prosecution, they've actually held that it is not a conflict for a prosecutor and a defense attorney on opposite sides of a case to be married to each other. It is just not an issue. Under Georgia ethics rules. You may or may not like that Fannie Willis dated someone, but that is not grounds for disqualification of a prosecutor in Georgia. That is not the reason they are trying to nuke Fannie as a prosecutor. Let's get real about this and take it seriously, because what's going on here is they are taking apart the judicial system. They are fundamentally changing the judiciary in the state, in the entire state, all to protect this one powerful defendant in their own party, whom she had the temerity to charge, even though he has political power. This is a test for us as a country. So far, the person who is bearing the entire brunt of this is Fannie Willis herself, personally and alone.

She is fighting, and she is not backing down.

You're confused. You think I'm on trial. These people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. I'm not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. They can continue on with their games, and I'm going to continue to do the work of the people. Isn't it interesting when We got a bunch of African-American DAs. Now we need Daddy to tell us what to do. So you all can go put that. That can be your sound bite for today. But today I am here so I can reach my community, and this is really messing up my business. They can look all they want. The DA's office has done everything according to the books. We are following the law. They can keep looking. I'm not interested in them looking. They can look. I'm sorry they pissed off. Justice is now actually blind. Lady Justice is blind. Everybody can get it. I can prosecute high-profile cases, and I can prosecute everyday cases when they need to be prosecuted.

So I don't care how rich you are, how powerful you think you are, who your daddy is, what your political party might be, how much money you think you got, and how evil your supporters are.

I don't care how many times they threaten me. I will gladly leave this place knowing that I did God's work.

Fannie Willis is ably defending herself. She is good at this, and she knew what she was walking into. But this story for all of us, this is not a profile in courage. This is a profile in cowardness. This is a profile in failure and neglect by us, by the country, because the reason she is out there defending herself so ably is because nobody else is defending her. She's standing alone against all of this. The rule of law depends on the people who enforce it, being able to enforce it, even when those who are implicated in a legal proceeding are powerful people. These are human beings. They are not magic. They are not bulletproof. They are not superhuman. Right now, they have no one defending them as they are being asked to bear superhuman pressure and threat. I get it that there is a good faith instinct against defending these folks. For Americans who believe in the independence and professionalism of the judiciary, why step up politically and defend a judge or a prosecutor? That's supposed to be a non-political part of our system, right? Right. True. But here, in reality, in this era of this Republican Party, there is a ton of inappropriate political pressure, improper, craven, pretextual, dishonest, intimidation being brought to bear on prosecutors and on judges from the right, from the allies of the former president.

It is working. There has been no significant countervailing pressure defending them. If you go after a judge's family, if you demonize a prosecutor and bring bogus allegations and charges against them. It is you who are breaking the American legal system, and you ought to be the one who pays for that. Thus far, what's the price been? Other than getting heckled by fed up New Yorkers on the sidewalk sometimes, the Republicans who are waging war on the legal system, proclaiming the illegitimacy of the legal system on behalf of Donald Trump, up until now, they are paying no cost for it. I mean, in Georgia, Republicans there want credit for having not all immediately jumped up to flip the election result in 2020 when Trump told them to. Congratulations. Great. Kind of a minimum, but good. Good on you. Now, though, what the Georgia Republican Party is doing is dismantling the independent judicial system in that state for the purpose of destroying Fannie Willis and thereby destroying the case against Donald Trump. That, too, is the record of the Georgia Republican Party in the era of Trump. They have help from Congress, and they have help from the US Senate, and honestly, they have had help from the media who, too uncritically, has been going along with it, assuming that, Oh, where there's smoke, there must be fire.

Oh, they're attacking her, so she must be controversial. Oh, they say something bad about her, so there must be something bad about her. The history of the rule of law in this country tells us that the rule of law does not magically defend itself. And it is mortal, it can be killed. When it is attacked, it breaks. The rule of law in this country, in practical terms, is made up of people doing hard jobs who themselves can break when they are attacked. Right now, you You and I, all of us, we are making history in this country. And the history that we are making is that there's no one defending Fannie Willis but herself. And in the noble alternate version of this history, that We'd like to imagine we would be part of. The whole country would be up in arms about Georgia and about New York and about all of these cases, telling these people to back off the judges, back off the witnesses and the jurors, back off the prosecutors, back off Fannie Willis. Protect these cases. Protect the rule of law. We imagine that's who we are as a country, but we are not showing it.

We are not standing up to defend these people. At least not yet. Bonnie Wallace joins us next. When news breaks, go beyond the headlines with the new MSNBC app. New developments in the legal drama surrounding former President Donald Trump. Get real-time analysis from live blogs to in-depth essays, video highlights from your favorite shows and hosts. Lots of news of all kinds going on right now. And the latest updates on the 2024 election. The rematch is out. It's Trump Biden part 2. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now at msnbc. Com/app. Hey, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, Why is this Happening? Author Sasha Eisenberg on his latest book, The Lie Detectives: In Search of a Playbook for Winning Elections in the Disinformation age. The disinformation narratives that are going to be a problem for us electorially with the small share of persuadable voters are the ones that respond to some existing concerns or anxieties that voters have about a particular issue or about Biden. We need to not chase the particular story or deep fake that's moving today. We need to have a messaging attempt that addresses the underlying anxieties that that voter has.

That's this week on Why Is This Happening? Search for Why Is This Happening wherever you're listening right now. And follow. Joining us now for the interview is Fulton County, Georgia, district Attorney Fonie Willis. Da Willis, I really appreciate you making time to be here. I know you don't do live television interviews all that often, certainly not with the national media. It's an honor to have you here.

Thank you for having me this evening.

Let me start by asking you about what your life has been like and how things have changed over the course of this past year. I know you have bodyguards. I know you had to leave your home because of ongoing threats against you. I saw footage last week in an event honoring the South Fulton Police. You got a little bit emotional thanking the police for having kept you safe in what has been a remarkably threatening environment for you. I wondered what effect the constant threat of violence that you've been living with has had on you and on your ability to do your Thank you for asking.

Not many people ask about what is the personal journey that's been going on. It really hasn't been happening in the last year. It's been happening since about a month after I took office. From the time I took office, I began to get threats. Those threats come in the way of emails, those threats come in the way of phone calls, text messages, any which way you can imagine. At some point, the threats became where I had to leave my home. I've been out of my home since the first year in office. They've come from a variety of sources. One of the first things that ever happened was there was a protest at my house at five o'clock in the morning. People mad because the last administration had left police cases, lots of them, and they wanted immediate action on them. That was the first thing that happened. But the threats have certainly been about lots of different kinds of cases that I prosecuted. People are very unhappy with them because of some recent cases that most of them are racial in nature. It has caused me to leave my home financially. I'm paying for my mortgage because I refuse to give up the home where I raise my children, but also paying for another establishment.

I have 24-hour really protection around me. It's a very interesting way to live, but it's well worth it to have the honor of being the first female district attorney in Fulton County. It pails in comparison to what my victims are going through. The reality is one of the reasons we are upsetting people is we are so successful here in Fulton County. I have the third largest crime drop in America. We have it because we're taking a balanced approach, both unapologetically going after gangs and violent criminals and anyone who should violate the law in my county. But we're also doing programs. It has been a huge sacrifice, but it's well worth it for my community.

We spoke, you did an interview with me earlier in your tenure, and we talked about what it was like to become a national lightning rod and to attract not just all the attention that a district attorney in a big place like Fulton County is always going to get locally for all of the important issues that affect the people of Fulton County, but to become a household name around the country, including by people who decided they were going to make your life hell for having brought one particularly very high-profile case. Do you feel like you've changed over the course of this term in office, over the course of this four years in terms of having to develop new skills, new resources, develop a thicker skin than you might not have expected when you ascended to office January first, 2020?

This job has certainly made me closer to God because you have to go into prayer often. So that's just the truth. So that's a positive, right? When you're getting closer to God. But I I can't explain to you how much I love the work that I do. I can't explain to you how loved I feel by my community. You really should feel sorry for those that are trying to deter me from my work. It doesn't do anything but motivate me to continue to work and to work hard. I'm not someone that's going to be broken, but certainly it has caused me to get thicker skin or to be more resilient, to dig deeper, to work harder. But what it has not done is deter me from my work.

Let me ask you about an interesting There's a interesting development that happened with a former Democratic governor of Georgia, Governor Roy Barnes. It emerged over the course of the Trump case and some of the, forgive me, the Michigas around that, that you had asked Governor Barnes if he would consider joining the prosecution as a special counsel in that case. It emerged that he said no, saying, I wasn't going to live with bodyguards for the rest of my life, which is a commentary on what it takes to be part of a legal system in this era, taking on politically powerful people. But Governor Barnes, as far as I understand it, has since offered that if the Republican-controlled legislature in Georgia comes after you with this new investigative committee that they seem to have formed specifically to come after you in some of the other ways that they seem to be targeting you, that if you need legal representation of a specialty form as part of the way they're coming after you through the legislature, that he will represent you in those matters. I just wanted to ask if What's your understanding and what you make of those interactions that you've had with former Governor Burns?

No, Governor Burns is my attorney. They have decided in Georgia that they would like to come over after me. They use false reasons for wanting to come after me. I don't know if you remember, and I believe we talked about it last time, Georgia had never had a prosecutorial oversight committee, and all of a sudden, 14 minorities were elected to office to to serve as district attorney. Now, all of a sudden, they need an oversight committee to look after district attorneys because they want to tell us how to prosecute and who to prosecute and where we should put our resources, as opposed to allowing the voters that put us in these seats to make those determinations. The voters in my community are very clear that they want crime rid out of their communities, but they want it done both by removing violent offenders, which is what we have done. We've gone after gangs, and we've worked with our police departments to do so. But they also want second chances for low-level offenders, and we have done those programs. What is so ironic is although it's only 14 of the 50 DAs in the state of Georgia, most of the citizens report to our jurisdictions.

So although we're smaller in number than the other 36, most of the population has elected these minority DAs to serve them and has trusted their judgment. But apparently, we now need Daddy to tell us how to do our job.

Da Willis, I just gave a little bit of a secular sermon or a secular reeming out to the country for not stepping up more to defend you as you have borne these sticks and stones from your political opponents and for political reasons. I have to take a quick break, but if you don't mind sticking with us, on the other side of the break, I'd like to talk to you about a few of the people who now are starting to stand for you and ask you what that means to you. If you can be with us for one more break.Thank you.All right, we'll be right back with Fulton County DA, Fonie Willis in just a moment. Stay with us.

Elevate your driving experience with the new Mazda from MSL Park Motors.

Inspired by Japanese Kodo design, the Mazda SUV Range crafts a new feeling of movement, combining confidence and stability. With EV, hybrid, petrol and diesel models to choose from, test drive the Mazda CX30, CX5 or CX60 today at MSL Park Motors, Navan Road, Dublin 7. To view the full Mazda Range, see msl. Ie. Hey, everyone. It's MSNBC's Chris Hayes. For the first time since 1892, we have an election in which both candidates have presidential records. It's a chance to take a hard look at what Joe Biden and Donald Trump have actually done as President. On a special Why is this happening podcast series called With Pod 2024: The Stakes, I'm talking to experts about the two candidates' records on specific policy areas like immigration, taxes, climate, and more. So you know what's at stake come November. Search for Why is this happening? And follow. The man has been indicted by a federal grand jury for allegedly threatening Fulton County district attorney Fannie Willis. The US attorney's office for the Northern district of Georgia says the man relled against DA Willis' prosecution of former President Donald Trump in YouTube live streams. At one point, he's accused of saying DA Willis will, quote, be killed like a dog.

He said to be formerly arrained in Atlanta next month. California man indicted earlier this month is the second person to face federal criminal charges for threatening to kill Fulton County DA Fannie Willis. The first was a man from Alabama. Together, they represent a small fraction of the threats that Fannie Willis has received in the nine months since she began prosecuting Donald Trump and in the couple of since she first started investigating that matter. She travels with bodyguards. She's been forced to leave her home. All this while former President Trump continues to attack her relentlessly to his supporters. As Republicans at the county, state, and federal level, do everything they can to undermine and impune and stymie her work and smear her personally. This level of sustained public attack is not usually the price of entry for doing your job as a district attorney, nor should it be in a country where the rule of law is supposedly the rule. The ability of prosecutors and judges to do their jobs without fear is a fundamental test of our democracy. Whether you like the Georgia criminal case against former President Trump or not, Fannie Willis is one of the bellwethers for the rule of law in this country.

Back with us now is the Fulton County district attorney, Ms. Willis. Ms. Willis, I was interested to see in the Atlanta Journal Constitution today, there were three Democratic state senators who published an opinion piece saying, We are witnessing a concerted effort by Trump and MAGA Republican politicians to cast doubt on the legitimate and strong Fulton County election interference case by attacking the prosecutor. It's an effort that takes advantage of every avenue of government power to which Trump's allies have access. Their goal, delay accountability for Trump's alleged attempt to illegally overturn a presidential election. This strikes me very close to my heart because I feel like this is one of the first times I've seen people standing up for you on this point. I wanted to ask how it strikes you. Do you agree with their assessment of what's going on?

Well, as you know, let's start with the federal government and Jim Jordan. Jim Jordan has, time after time after time, attacked my office with no legitimate purpose. Anyone who knows Jim Jordan's history knows that he only has the purpose of trying to interfere in a criminal investigation. He has now turned his tricks to he's going to look at grant programs, which I invite him to do, and we have complied with his subpoenas, but yet he continues his attacks to try to interfere in a criminal investigation. All while, his jurisdiction has one of the worst crime rates, has poverty issues, and not one time has he used his position to try to investigate people who are attacking me and attacking others, legitimately doing their jobs, making him illegitimate in his position, and it's disgusting. I bring that up at the federal level because now at the state level, they've decided to follow this clown's lead, and They want to now try to interfere in an investigation, and it's not legitimate either. So it shall fail, and it's not going to go anywhere. But they are trying to attack me at every level. As you know, today is an exciting day for me because I'm on a ballot tomorrow, and I have a Democratic challenger, and I plan to win and win big tomorrow.

But I also have a Republican challenger coming up in November who's unqualified, been practicing law for less than four years, has never practiced criminal law, but has already got PACS supporting her, already has the National Republican Party, as well as the Local Republican Party supporting her. I am thankful to those three Democrats who stood up for what is right. But I am at a point where I need Fulton County voters to get out and vote. I need people around the country to support me, big and small, to say that we are going to be a country that still believes in the rule of law. We are not going to allow people to be attacked while they do their job. Having prosecutors that are free from interference and are allowed to just look at cases, look at the facts, and if people broke the law to bring charges, it has to go on for us to live in a free society. The sad part, though, for all of them, Ms. Maddow, is it doesn't matter how many times they attack me. I am not going to be broken, and I am going to I will be standing here doing my job lawfully.

Fulton County district Attorney Fannie Willis. I know it's a very busy time with the primary tomorrow and with everything going on in your life and the slings and arrows that you are dealing with. Thank you for being willing to talk with me and in my audience tonight about this. Good luck to you. Stay safe. Thank you. Thank you. All right, we'll be right back. Stay with us. Okay, this one ends with a bang. A few weeks ago, Grand Jury in Arizona indicted 18 people, including Rudy Giuliani, for their role in Trump's fake elector scheme to try and falsify the 2020 election results to make it look like Trump won in states where Biden actually Before criminal proceedings can start, prosecutors have to first serve all of the defendants. They have to physically deliver them a court summons, which is basically a formal notice that they have been charged with a crime. Well, in this Arizona case, one by one, the prosecutors have been serving all of the defendants charged in this case, except for one they were having a hard time with. The day after the charges were filed, officials from the Arizona Attorney General's office flew to New York to serve Rudy Rudy Giuliani.

They went to Rudy Giuliani's apartment, but the prosecutors were turned away by the doorman. They then tried calling him over and over and over again. No one would answer. For three weeks, prosecutors said they couldn't do not locate Rudy Giuliani to serve him his criminal summons. They need to give it to him in person. Well, this weekend, Rudy Giuliani celebrated his 80th birthday in Florida, unencumbered by that criminal summons. Now, Naturally, he decided to taunt the Arizona attorney general about it. He took this awkward selfie with his friends or maybe his dental hygienists, I don't know, with people who came to his birthday party, and he tweeted this picture at the Arizona Attorney General, writing, If Arizona authorities cannot find me by tomorrow morning, they must dismiss the indictment. Now, the problem here was that at the very moment, Mr. Giuliani was sending that tweet, Agents from the Arizona Attorney General's office were out in the parking lot waiting to serve Mr. Giuliani, his court papers, at his own birthday party. The Washington Post reports that prosecutors waited outside the party for some time, watching guests arrive and leave. When one of the agents said his name, Mr.

Giuliani asked who they were. They identified themselves as agents of the Arizona Attorney General's office, adding, And you've been served. So exactly 74 minutes after Rudy Giuliani taunted the Arizona attorney general on Twitter, Nina Nina, you can't serve me, the attorney general was able to post this, The final defendant was served moments ago. Rudy Giuliani, nobody is above the law. In that Arizona case, at least 10 of the defendants are going to be arrained in front of a judge tomorrow, some of them in person, some of them by Zoom. Now that Rudy Giuliani has been who has served, he, too, can advance to the arraignment stage of his criminal proceedings in that state. As of tonight, we are unsure if Rudy Giuliani will be among the group of defendants who's going to be arrained tomorrow. But I mean, like you, I will just be watching this space. All right, that's going to do it for me for now. Calling all bread enthusiasts, get ready to Need Bacon, rise to the challenge with the launch of Rise with Aldi's new bread baking competition. This year's winner will pocket €15,000 and get to sell their prize loaf in Aldi stores for a whole year.

Visit Aldi. Ie/risewithaldi for details on drop-off points at selected Aldi stores. Not trying to butter you up, but we know you can do it. Go all Aldi. T's and C's apply. Visit Aldi. Ie/risewithaldi for details.