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Good evening and thank you for joining us for our special coverage of day three of the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The convention is a four day affair altogether, which means you're nearly there. Tomorrow night will be the big finale. Trump giving his speech accepting the presidential nomination of his party for the third straight presidential election is Democr. Think about that.

The last time they had a different nominee, it was 2012. Every time they've had a nominee since then, it's been this guy, his democratic opponent, the president of the United States, Joe Biden, tonight announced that he has tested positive for Covid and has therefore canceled all events so he can recover. Back home in Delaware, the president is said to be mildly symptomatic. The president's doctor releasing a statement saying he has upper respiratory symptoms, including a runny nose and a non productive cough. The doctor's statement also said the president has general malaise, which generally just means that you feel bad.

But the White House statement, I should point this out, misspelled the word malaise. So I spent a few panicked minutes googling affairs unit in the Marine Corps. Yes, even the Marines do have public relations. They're great at it, in fact. But that is the type of unit, a public affairs unit that he was in when he was in Iraq.After he did his law degree again at Yale, he became a protege of a very right wing billionaire who you might remember from the first Republican National Convention that nominated Donald Trump for president. He had a primetime speaking slot. It was one of the weirder speeches of the 2016 RNC. His name is Peter Thiel. Helook at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons, inform people. No.And then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life, a reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared premise with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket. So I thought you put that. Well, that's where we are in America tonight.Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party he plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jefferies did go to President Biden and say, we're gonna lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy. Well, unless Schumer and Jeffreys deny that that's what they said and even has issued details, and neither of them have issued something, which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements.We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise. And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden.It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation. But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too, I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakim Jeffries are people that are obviously leaders in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with.As close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously. I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her.Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor. But I think the other last thing I will just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always.He's got a chip on his superpower. It's his superpower. It always has been his superpower. He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances.But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours. I just wouldn't make a bet on that. Yeah. Joy, what I will say is that what you reported and very well set up matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. They are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee, that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes.That there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is had called him immoral and absurd, who had wondered if Trump was, quote, America's Hitler. Nevertheless, holding Peter Thiel's hand was enough to get JD Vance Donald Trump's endorsement. And now, just 18 months after Peter Thiel put him in the Senate, Peter Thiel has now got his guy, JD Vance, onto Trump's ticket as his running mate.Whatever you think about Mister Vance, the working class champion who is also a venture capitalist millionaire, his patron in politics, the reason he, at age 39, has risen from a guy who was only famous for writing an autobiography to now being the republican nominee for vice president of the United, too. Thank the ancestors. Jacob Sobroff for us tonight on the floor of the RNC and Milwaukee. We are expecting in just a couple of minutes an introduction to the main speech, main speech of the evening, of course, republican vice presidential nominee JD Vance.We expect that he's going to be introduced by his wife, Usha Vance, the wife of Donald Trump's vice presidential pick. She's going to begin her remarks at the RNC momentarily. This week, many people, including many Republicans, learned that Usha Vance is indian american. She'of the Democratic Party in Washington, Senate democratic leader Chuck Schumer and House democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. Again, this is not confirmed by NBC News. It is single source reporting from ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl. I encourage you to keep your healthy sense of skepticism intact about this.The reason I'm telling you about it, nevertheless, while stressing that it is unconfirmed, is because you should know that this is, this is the sort of reporting that is explosive enough in its implications that it may sort of make its own weather. It may catalyze other developments in democratic politics which wouldn't make sense to you unless you knew that this report was circulating. Now, what NBC News has been able to confirm is that Chuck Schumer, Schumer and President Biden did meet privately, one on one with no staffers on Saturday, this past weekend, and that Senator Schumer, at that meeting, presented President Biden with polling information about the state of the race. What the Washington Post is now reporting is that both Chuck party right now. As internships go, that's a really good internship.The choice of JD Vance to be Donald Trump's running mate is reportedly a decision that was only made at the very last minute, like the day before it was announced. You do not choose a person like Mister Vance because you think you need help winning the election. When they chose JD Vance, they did not think they needed any help winning this next election. If you're trying to make up for some, you know, soft spots, some weaknesses in the Republican Party's electoral prospects, you do not, for example, choose a vice presidential running mate who is on the record, on tape taking this position. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. 2022 podcast interview first unearthed by CNN today in which JD Vance says, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, whatever you think about his politics and his political instincts, he's been very open about the fact that he sees the Republican Party's strong stance against abortion, particularly a strong stance for a national abortion ban, as an electoral loser. Even though Mister Trump is the one who orchestrated the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and therefore the republican abortion bans all over the country, Trump has admitted that strongly restrictive stances on abortion, particularly a nationally restrictive stance on abortion, will cost the Republicans elections they could otherwise win. So then why do you pick JD Vance to be a running mate?If you are donald Trump and you pick a running mate, and you're looking to pick a running mate to help your electoral prospects because you're worried about your chances of winning the election, you would never pick Mister I would certainly, certainly like abortion to be illegal nationally. You would never pick a national abortion ban guy, right? You would also not pick a guy who says we're in a, quote, late republican period in this country. And he doesn't mean capital r Republican, he means small r Republican, meaning we are at the end of being a republic. JD Vance, quoting there, a far right Internet personality and blogger who famously advocated openly for the United States to become a monarchy or an outright dictatorship, who has called for abolishing the us government, the us system of government being abolished so we can instead be ruled by a Caesar figure.That is who JD Vance has been citing when he talks about us being in a late republican period as a country. That's what he thinks about where we are as a country and where we should go as a country. You do not pick a man like that if you are worried about your electoral prospects. I mean, a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

affairs unit in the Marine Corps. Yes, even the Marines do have public relations. They're great at it, in fact. But that is the type of unit, a public affairs unit that he was in when he was in Iraq.

After he did his law degree again at Yale, he became a protege of a very right wing billionaire who you might remember from the first Republican National Convention that nominated Donald Trump for president. He had a primetime speaking slot. It was one of the weirder speeches of the 2016 RNC. His name is Peter Thiel. Helook at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons, inform people. No.And then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life, a reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared premise with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket. So I thought you put that. Well, that's where we are in America tonight.Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party he plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jefferies did go to President Biden and say, we're gonna lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy. Well, unless Schumer and Jeffreys deny that that's what they said and even has issued details, and neither of them have issued something, which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements.We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise. And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden.It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation. But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too, I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakim Jeffries are people that are obviously leaders in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with.As close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously. I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her.Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor. But I think the other last thing I will just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always.He's got a chip on his superpower. It's his superpower. It always has been his superpower. He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances.But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours. I just wouldn't make a bet on that. Yeah. Joy, what I will say is that what you reported and very well set up matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. They are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee, that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes.That there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is had called him immoral and absurd, who had wondered if Trump was, quote, America's Hitler. Nevertheless, holding Peter Thiel's hand was enough to get JD Vance Donald Trump's endorsement. And now, just 18 months after Peter Thiel put him in the Senate, Peter Thiel has now got his guy, JD Vance, onto Trump's ticket as his running mate.Whatever you think about Mister Vance, the working class champion who is also a venture capitalist millionaire, his patron in politics, the reason he, at age 39, has risen from a guy who was only famous for writing an autobiography to now being the republican nominee for vice president of the United, too. Thank the ancestors. Jacob Sobroff for us tonight on the floor of the RNC and Milwaukee. We are expecting in just a couple of minutes an introduction to the main speech, main speech of the evening, of course, republican vice presidential nominee JD Vance.We expect that he's going to be introduced by his wife, Usha Vance, the wife of Donald Trump's vice presidential pick. She's going to begin her remarks at the RNC momentarily. This week, many people, including many Republicans, learned that Usha Vance is indian american. She'of the Democratic Party in Washington, Senate democratic leader Chuck Schumer and House democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. Again, this is not confirmed by NBC News. It is single source reporting from ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl. I encourage you to keep your healthy sense of skepticism intact about this.The reason I'm telling you about it, nevertheless, while stressing that it is unconfirmed, is because you should know that this is, this is the sort of reporting that is explosive enough in its implications that it may sort of make its own weather. It may catalyze other developments in democratic politics which wouldn't make sense to you unless you knew that this report was circulating. Now, what NBC News has been able to confirm is that Chuck Schumer, Schumer and President Biden did meet privately, one on one with no staffers on Saturday, this past weekend, and that Senator Schumer, at that meeting, presented President Biden with polling information about the state of the race. What the Washington Post is now reporting is that both Chuck party right now. As internships go, that's a really good internship.The choice of JD Vance to be Donald Trump's running mate is reportedly a decision that was only made at the very last minute, like the day before it was announced. You do not choose a person like Mister Vance because you think you need help winning the election. When they chose JD Vance, they did not think they needed any help winning this next election. If you're trying to make up for some, you know, soft spots, some weaknesses in the Republican Party's electoral prospects, you do not, for example, choose a vice presidential running mate who is on the record, on tape taking this position. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. 2022 podcast interview first unearthed by CNN today in which JD Vance says, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, whatever you think about his politics and his political instincts, he's been very open about the fact that he sees the Republican Party's strong stance against abortion, particularly a strong stance for a national abortion ban, as an electoral loser. Even though Mister Trump is the one who orchestrated the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and therefore the republican abortion bans all over the country, Trump has admitted that strongly restrictive stances on abortion, particularly a nationally restrictive stance on abortion, will cost the Republicans elections they could otherwise win. So then why do you pick JD Vance to be a running mate?If you are donald Trump and you pick a running mate, and you're looking to pick a running mate to help your electoral prospects because you're worried about your chances of winning the election, you would never pick Mister I would certainly, certainly like abortion to be illegal nationally. You would never pick a national abortion ban guy, right? You would also not pick a guy who says we're in a, quote, late republican period in this country. And he doesn't mean capital r Republican, he means small r Republican, meaning we are at the end of being a republic. JD Vance, quoting there, a far right Internet personality and blogger who famously advocated openly for the United States to become a monarchy or an outright dictatorship, who has called for abolishing the us government, the us system of government being abolished so we can instead be ruled by a Caesar figure.That is who JD Vance has been citing when he talks about us being in a late republican period as a country. That's what he thinks about where we are as a country and where we should go as a country. You do not pick a man like that if you are worried about your electoral prospects. I mean, a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons, inform people. No.

And then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life, a reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared premise with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket. So I thought you put that. Well, that's where we are in America tonight.

Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.

This is from White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party he plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jefferies did go to President Biden and say, we're gonna lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy. Well, unless Schumer and Jeffreys deny that that's what they said and even has issued details, and neither of them have issued something, which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements.

We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise. And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden.

It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation. But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too, I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakim Jeffries are people that are obviously leaders in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with.

As close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously. I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her.

Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor. But I think the other last thing I will just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always.

He's got a chip on his superpower. It's his superpower. It always has been his superpower. He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances.

But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours. I just wouldn't make a bet on that. Yeah. Joy, what I will say is that what you reported and very well set up matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.

I mean, there are people who actually do this. They are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee, that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes.

That there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is had called him immoral and absurd, who had wondered if Trump was, quote, America's Hitler. Nevertheless, holding Peter Thiel's hand was enough to get JD Vance Donald Trump's endorsement. And now, just 18 months after Peter Thiel put him in the Senate, Peter Thiel has now got his guy, JD Vance, onto Trump's ticket as his running mate.Whatever you think about Mister Vance, the working class champion who is also a venture capitalist millionaire, his patron in politics, the reason he, at age 39, has risen from a guy who was only famous for writing an autobiography to now being the republican nominee for vice president of the United, too. Thank the ancestors. Jacob Sobroff for us tonight on the floor of the RNC and Milwaukee. We are expecting in just a couple of minutes an introduction to the main speech, main speech of the evening, of course, republican vice presidential nominee JD Vance.We expect that he's going to be introduced by his wife, Usha Vance, the wife of Donald Trump's vice presidential pick. She's going to begin her remarks at the RNC momentarily. This week, many people, including many Republicans, learned that Usha Vance is indian american. She'of the Democratic Party in Washington, Senate democratic leader Chuck Schumer and House democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. Again, this is not confirmed by NBC News. It is single source reporting from ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl. I encourage you to keep your healthy sense of skepticism intact about this.The reason I'm telling you about it, nevertheless, while stressing that it is unconfirmed, is because you should know that this is, this is the sort of reporting that is explosive enough in its implications that it may sort of make its own weather. It may catalyze other developments in democratic politics which wouldn't make sense to you unless you knew that this report was circulating. Now, what NBC News has been able to confirm is that Chuck Schumer, Schumer and President Biden did meet privately, one on one with no staffers on Saturday, this past weekend, and that Senator Schumer, at that meeting, presented President Biden with polling information about the state of the race. What the Washington Post is now reporting is that both Chuck party right now. As internships go, that's a really good internship.The choice of JD Vance to be Donald Trump's running mate is reportedly a decision that was only made at the very last minute, like the day before it was announced. You do not choose a person like Mister Vance because you think you need help winning the election. When they chose JD Vance, they did not think they needed any help winning this next election. If you're trying to make up for some, you know, soft spots, some weaknesses in the Republican Party's electoral prospects, you do not, for example, choose a vice presidential running mate who is on the record, on tape taking this position. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. 2022 podcast interview first unearthed by CNN today in which JD Vance says, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, whatever you think about his politics and his political instincts, he's been very open about the fact that he sees the Republican Party's strong stance against abortion, particularly a strong stance for a national abortion ban, as an electoral loser. Even though Mister Trump is the one who orchestrated the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and therefore the republican abortion bans all over the country, Trump has admitted that strongly restrictive stances on abortion, particularly a nationally restrictive stance on abortion, will cost the Republicans elections they could otherwise win. So then why do you pick JD Vance to be a running mate?If you are donald Trump and you pick a running mate, and you're looking to pick a running mate to help your electoral prospects because you're worried about your chances of winning the election, you would never pick Mister I would certainly, certainly like abortion to be illegal nationally. You would never pick a national abortion ban guy, right? You would also not pick a guy who says we're in a, quote, late republican period in this country. And he doesn't mean capital r Republican, he means small r Republican, meaning we are at the end of being a republic. JD Vance, quoting there, a far right Internet personality and blogger who famously advocated openly for the United States to become a monarchy or an outright dictatorship, who has called for abolishing the us government, the us system of government being abolished so we can instead be ruled by a Caesar figure.That is who JD Vance has been citing when he talks about us being in a late republican period as a country. That's what he thinks about where we are as a country and where we should go as a country. You do not pick a man like that if you are worried about your electoral prospects. I mean, a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

had called him immoral and absurd, who had wondered if Trump was, quote, America's Hitler. Nevertheless, holding Peter Thiel's hand was enough to get JD Vance Donald Trump's endorsement. And now, just 18 months after Peter Thiel put him in the Senate, Peter Thiel has now got his guy, JD Vance, onto Trump's ticket as his running mate.

Whatever you think about Mister Vance, the working class champion who is also a venture capitalist millionaire, his patron in politics, the reason he, at age 39, has risen from a guy who was only famous for writing an autobiography to now being the republican nominee for vice president of the United, too. Thank the ancestors. Jacob Sobroff for us tonight on the floor of the RNC and Milwaukee. We are expecting in just a couple of minutes an introduction to the main speech, main speech of the evening, of course, republican vice presidential nominee JD Vance.We expect that he's going to be introduced by his wife, Usha Vance, the wife of Donald Trump's vice presidential pick. She's going to begin her remarks at the RNC momentarily. This week, many people, including many Republicans, learned that Usha Vance is indian american. She'of the Democratic Party in Washington, Senate democratic leader Chuck Schumer and House democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. Again, this is not confirmed by NBC News. It is single source reporting from ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl. I encourage you to keep your healthy sense of skepticism intact about this.The reason I'm telling you about it, nevertheless, while stressing that it is unconfirmed, is because you should know that this is, this is the sort of reporting that is explosive enough in its implications that it may sort of make its own weather. It may catalyze other developments in democratic politics which wouldn't make sense to you unless you knew that this report was circulating. Now, what NBC News has been able to confirm is that Chuck Schumer, Schumer and President Biden did meet privately, one on one with no staffers on Saturday, this past weekend, and that Senator Schumer, at that meeting, presented President Biden with polling information about the state of the race. What the Washington Post is now reporting is that both Chuck party right now. As internships go, that's a really good internship.The choice of JD Vance to be Donald Trump's running mate is reportedly a decision that was only made at the very last minute, like the day before it was announced. You do not choose a person like Mister Vance because you think you need help winning the election. When they chose JD Vance, they did not think they needed any help winning this next election. If you're trying to make up for some, you know, soft spots, some weaknesses in the Republican Party's electoral prospects, you do not, for example, choose a vice presidential running mate who is on the record, on tape taking this position. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. 2022 podcast interview first unearthed by CNN today in which JD Vance says, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, whatever you think about his politics and his political instincts, he's been very open about the fact that he sees the Republican Party's strong stance against abortion, particularly a strong stance for a national abortion ban, as an electoral loser. Even though Mister Trump is the one who orchestrated the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and therefore the republican abortion bans all over the country, Trump has admitted that strongly restrictive stances on abortion, particularly a nationally restrictive stance on abortion, will cost the Republicans elections they could otherwise win. So then why do you pick JD Vance to be a running mate?If you are donald Trump and you pick a running mate, and you're looking to pick a running mate to help your electoral prospects because you're worried about your chances of winning the election, you would never pick Mister I would certainly, certainly like abortion to be illegal nationally. You would never pick a national abortion ban guy, right? You would also not pick a guy who says we're in a, quote, late republican period in this country. And he doesn't mean capital r Republican, he means small r Republican, meaning we are at the end of being a republic. JD Vance, quoting there, a far right Internet personality and blogger who famously advocated openly for the United States to become a monarchy or an outright dictatorship, who has called for abolishing the us government, the us system of government being abolished so we can instead be ruled by a Caesar figure.That is who JD Vance has been citing when he talks about us being in a late republican period as a country. That's what he thinks about where we are as a country and where we should go as a country. You do not pick a man like that if you are worried about your electoral prospects. I mean, a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

, too. Thank the ancestors. Jacob Sobroff for us tonight on the floor of the RNC and Milwaukee. We are expecting in just a couple of minutes an introduction to the main speech, main speech of the evening, of course, republican vice presidential nominee JD Vance.

We expect that he's going to be introduced by his wife, Usha Vance, the wife of Donald Trump's vice presidential pick. She's going to begin her remarks at the RNC momentarily. This week, many people, including many Republicans, learned that Usha Vance is indian american. She'of the Democratic Party in Washington, Senate democratic leader Chuck Schumer and House democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. Again, this is not confirmed by NBC News. It is single source reporting from ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl. I encourage you to keep your healthy sense of skepticism intact about this.The reason I'm telling you about it, nevertheless, while stressing that it is unconfirmed, is because you should know that this is, this is the sort of reporting that is explosive enough in its implications that it may sort of make its own weather. It may catalyze other developments in democratic politics which wouldn't make sense to you unless you knew that this report was circulating. Now, what NBC News has been able to confirm is that Chuck Schumer, Schumer and President Biden did meet privately, one on one with no staffers on Saturday, this past weekend, and that Senator Schumer, at that meeting, presented President Biden with polling information about the state of the race. What the Washington Post is now reporting is that both Chuck party right now. As internships go, that's a really good internship.The choice of JD Vance to be Donald Trump's running mate is reportedly a decision that was only made at the very last minute, like the day before it was announced. You do not choose a person like Mister Vance because you think you need help winning the election. When they chose JD Vance, they did not think they needed any help winning this next election. If you're trying to make up for some, you know, soft spots, some weaknesses in the Republican Party's electoral prospects, you do not, for example, choose a vice presidential running mate who is on the record, on tape taking this position. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. 2022 podcast interview first unearthed by CNN today in which JD Vance says, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, whatever you think about his politics and his political instincts, he's been very open about the fact that he sees the Republican Party's strong stance against abortion, particularly a strong stance for a national abortion ban, as an electoral loser. Even though Mister Trump is the one who orchestrated the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and therefore the republican abortion bans all over the country, Trump has admitted that strongly restrictive stances on abortion, particularly a nationally restrictive stance on abortion, will cost the Republicans elections they could otherwise win. So then why do you pick JD Vance to be a running mate?If you are donald Trump and you pick a running mate, and you're looking to pick a running mate to help your electoral prospects because you're worried about your chances of winning the election, you would never pick Mister I would certainly, certainly like abortion to be illegal nationally. You would never pick a national abortion ban guy, right? You would also not pick a guy who says we're in a, quote, late republican period in this country. And he doesn't mean capital r Republican, he means small r Republican, meaning we are at the end of being a republic. JD Vance, quoting there, a far right Internet personality and blogger who famously advocated openly for the United States to become a monarchy or an outright dictatorship, who has called for abolishing the us government, the us system of government being abolished so we can instead be ruled by a Caesar figure.That is who JD Vance has been citing when he talks about us being in a late republican period as a country. That's what he thinks about where we are as a country and where we should go as a country. You do not pick a man like that if you are worried about your electoral prospects. I mean, a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

of the Democratic Party in Washington, Senate democratic leader Chuck Schumer and House democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. Again, this is not confirmed by NBC News. It is single source reporting from ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl. I encourage you to keep your healthy sense of skepticism intact about this.

The reason I'm telling you about it, nevertheless, while stressing that it is unconfirmed, is because you should know that this is, this is the sort of reporting that is explosive enough in its implications that it may sort of make its own weather. It may catalyze other developments in democratic politics which wouldn't make sense to you unless you knew that this report was circulating. Now, what NBC News has been able to confirm is that Chuck Schumer, Schumer and President Biden did meet privately, one on one with no staffers on Saturday, this past weekend, and that Senator Schumer, at that meeting, presented President Biden with polling information about the state of the race. What the Washington Post is now reporting is that both Chuck party right now. As internships go, that's a really good internship.The choice of JD Vance to be Donald Trump's running mate is reportedly a decision that was only made at the very last minute, like the day before it was announced. You do not choose a person like Mister Vance because you think you need help winning the election. When they chose JD Vance, they did not think they needed any help winning this next election. If you're trying to make up for some, you know, soft spots, some weaknesses in the Republican Party's electoral prospects, you do not, for example, choose a vice presidential running mate who is on the record, on tape taking this position. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. 2022 podcast interview first unearthed by CNN today in which JD Vance says, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, whatever you think about his politics and his political instincts, he's been very open about the fact that he sees the Republican Party's strong stance against abortion, particularly a strong stance for a national abortion ban, as an electoral loser. Even though Mister Trump is the one who orchestrated the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and therefore the republican abortion bans all over the country, Trump has admitted that strongly restrictive stances on abortion, particularly a nationally restrictive stance on abortion, will cost the Republicans elections they could otherwise win. So then why do you pick JD Vance to be a running mate?If you are donald Trump and you pick a running mate, and you're looking to pick a running mate to help your electoral prospects because you're worried about your chances of winning the election, you would never pick Mister I would certainly, certainly like abortion to be illegal nationally. You would never pick a national abortion ban guy, right? You would also not pick a guy who says we're in a, quote, late republican period in this country. And he doesn't mean capital r Republican, he means small r Republican, meaning we are at the end of being a republic. JD Vance, quoting there, a far right Internet personality and blogger who famously advocated openly for the United States to become a monarchy or an outright dictatorship, who has called for abolishing the us government, the us system of government being abolished so we can instead be ruled by a Caesar figure.That is who JD Vance has been citing when he talks about us being in a late republican period as a country. That's what he thinks about where we are as a country and where we should go as a country. You do not pick a man like that if you are worried about your electoral prospects. I mean, a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

party right now. As internships go, that's a really good internship.

The choice of JD Vance to be Donald Trump's running mate is reportedly a decision that was only made at the very last minute, like the day before it was announced. You do not choose a person like Mister Vance because you think you need help winning the election. When they chose JD Vance, they did not think they needed any help winning this next election. If you're trying to make up for some, you know, soft spots, some weaknesses in the Republican Party's electoral prospects, you do not, for example, choose a vice presidential running mate who is on the record, on tape taking this position. I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.

I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. 2022 podcast interview first unearthed by CNN today in which JD Vance says, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, whatever you think about his politics and his political instincts, he's been very open about the fact that he sees the Republican Party's strong stance against abortion, particularly a strong stance for a national abortion ban, as an electoral loser. Even though Mister Trump is the one who orchestrated the overturning of Roe versus Wade, and therefore the republican abortion bans all over the country, Trump has admitted that strongly restrictive stances on abortion, particularly a nationally restrictive stance on abortion, will cost the Republicans elections they could otherwise win. So then why do you pick JD Vance to be a running mate?

If you are donald Trump and you pick a running mate, and you're looking to pick a running mate to help your electoral prospects because you're worried about your chances of winning the election, you would never pick Mister I would certainly, certainly like abortion to be illegal nationally. You would never pick a national abortion ban guy, right? You would also not pick a guy who says we're in a, quote, late republican period in this country. And he doesn't mean capital r Republican, he means small r Republican, meaning we are at the end of being a republic. JD Vance, quoting there, a far right Internet personality and blogger who famously advocated openly for the United States to become a monarchy or an outright dictatorship, who has called for abolishing the us government, the us system of government being abolished so we can instead be ruled by a Caesar figure.

That is who JD Vance has been citing when he talks about us being in a late republican period as a country. That's what he thinks about where we are as a country and where we should go as a country. You do not pick a man like that if you are worried about your electoral prospects. I mean, a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

a privilege to be covering this part of the story. And I was like, what? This is the hardest, most gut wrenching. And, you know, I read the stories tonight and I texted a close friend.

I said, I feel emptiness. I mean, Joe Biden is beloved. He is decent. And four years ago, it was a perfect contrast. This year, it's not working.

Donald Trump is winning. I thought you laid it out so importantly clear, Rachel, and the politics of it are telling, because the politics of a republican party that has a national abortion ban novice, and that's the literal term, he's a rookie senator. He's a novice senator. As you point out, coming out of basically finance and elite educational circles is not an appeal to any part of the coalition or the country. It's much more something else that you diagnosed.

I won't repeat it. It's possible to look at something that's scary but not be scared. It's possible to say this is a scary moment for all the different reasons that informed people know and then decide to then still use facts, evidence and logic to go forward, even though it isn't the various ways you diagnose, it's scary. And so it's coming amidst reporting that I think you were very careful to caution, can take on a life or reality of its own that we don't know yet. But something is happening at the highest levels of the leadership of the Democratic Party based on a confluence of events that involves a shared with the leadership of the Republican Party, as you put it, the view that this is high stakes, that it matters, and that they may not still have the best ticket.

So I thought you put that well, that's where we are in America tonight. Let me, let me just add, I want to hear from you both on this. We do, actually, while we have been talking, we have a little bit of new information. We have a response from the White House.

This is from a White House spokesperson. The president told both leaders, meaning Schumer and Jeffries, he is the nominee of the party. He plans to win and looks forward to working with both of them to pass his 100 days agenda to help working families. So this is obviously the top line response here is, no, I'm not going anywhere. But this also, I think implicitly, I may be a little ahead over my skis here, but I think this implicitly confirms that Schumer and Jeffreys did go to President Biden and say, we're going to lose with you at the top of the ticket, and therefore, you need to decide if those are, if you want that to be your legacy.

Well, unless Schumer and Jeffries deny that that's what they said. And neither of them have issued something which Nicole and I have written a lot of statements. We've been a part of a lot of non denial denials. So if that's not true, they should come out and say it's not true. I just want to echo something Nicole said, because I think a lot of Democrats have been under a great deal of attack online and otherwise.

And the reason that people are having this conversation is because of the threat of Donald Trump and now JD Vance, who will read the project 2025 plan and be a more effective implementer. It's not because they don't like Joe Biden. It's not because they don't think he was a great president. It's because they're scared that they could take over and what they would do to our country. That's why people are having the conversation.

But in terms of what we know and what we don't know, which is always important, too. I will say that contextually, having worked for Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are people that are obviously litters in the democratic party. They're not people he has close personal relationships with, as close as he has with, say, Jim Clyburn or close as he has with Nancy Pelosi. There have been reports, and again, we're all piecing together reports and talking to a lot of people about Pelosi's behind the scenes work. We don't know much more about that, obviously.

I think it's hard to believe that Adam Schiff would have done what he did without her knowing about it. But a spokesperson for her said it was news to her. Again, these are just things we know right now. The other things we don't know is the impact on money. If the money dries up, that's obviously a huge factor.

But I think the other last thing I'll just say about what to know about Joe Biden, because it's, what's the reality here we're watching. And also how he operates as a human is that he has felt underestimated always. He's got a chip on his shoulder. It's his superpower. He always has been superpower.

He feels that people never thought he could win in 2020, and he didn't. These are entirely different circumstances. But for anyone who's thinking, well, the leaders of the Democratic Party are telling him he should step out, it's over in a matter of hours, I just wouldn't make a bet on that, joy. What I will say is that what you reported and very well said matches what I am hearing from, I feel like I, at this point, might have talked to every single member of the congressional black caucus in the last, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It matches what I am hearing not just from them, but from some of the people whose job it will be to turn out votes.

I mean, there are people who actually do this. There are people who specialize in turning out, particularly votes in places like Fulton county, places like Detroit, places like Milwaukee that Democrats will have to win and win big and get big turnout in in order to win the election. And what I am hearing and the anger that I'm hearing that's coming from them is that to the point that you are making, given the stakes, and the stakes being democracy itself, the stakes being project 2025, the stakes being a Trump presidency, which I think everyone agrees African Americans would be first in line to suffer. Right. And so they understand the stakes, that there is a sense among the people that I have spoken to, including some senior members of that caucus, that given that there is a sense that there is gamesmanship going on inside of this effort to remove President Biden from the ticket, and that that gamesmanship is heavily geared toward also pushing aside Kamala Harris, Vice President Harris.

And there is a sense that there is a lot of pressure coming from there. Some people are just calling it California at this point, whether it's donors or whether it is members, whether it is whoever. This sense of huge pressure for the CBC, which is locked arms with President Biden, I think we can all agree on that. They have been unwavering. They are sticking with him.

You know, Claire McCaskill will tell you to the very end they are with him that the huge pressure is coming without regard to the vice president and that there is this, what they perceive is a push for an open convention and that people are taking the risk of playing 2028 games with a 2024 crisis, and that the gamesmanship in trying to maneuver people who may want to run in 2028 and maneuver them in now is seen as undercutting the whole project when the project is beating Trump. What a lot of folks are telling me is that they see gamesmanship to try to set aside the person who would be next in line in 2028, meaning the vice president,so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

so many patriots, people who love this country, think about the actual direction that this country should be going in. And so it's a bit disheartening, frankly, where, I know I said during the start of my campaign, I have no problem spending every day introducing myself to people who don't know me. But I refuse to spend a second reintroduce myself to people who do know me. And I think that's exactly what JD Vance is doing right now. Governor West Morris, Chris Hayes here.

I wanted to ask you about a race happening in your home state that I think shed some interesting light on the national race. Given the pick of JD Vance and the abortion politics of JD Vance and Trump at the top of the ticket, the former governor of your state running for Senate, Republican named Larry Hogan, left the very high approval rating, running in a state that is quite democratic and quite supportive of abortion rights, essentially attempting to kind of moonwalk his way away from the republican party's position on abortion and try to get Maryland voters who are adamantly pro choice to come along. Do you think he can pull that off? And what lessons are there to be learned from that for national politics, where I think we've seen some signs of republican party party wants to try to do the same thing in tightly contested races.

No. And I actually don't think that the old governor is moonwalking. I think he's about facing. We are now talking about. It's amazing now hearing him saying that he is a pro choice and independent thinker, when the truth is when he actually had power.

He vetoed legislation that enhanced privacy, vetoed legislation that enhanced protection for both patients and providers. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds that went towards training providers because the old governor, who's now running for Senate, refused to release them for political reasons. And so it's not lost on anyone in our state that he was, he was handpicked by Mitch McConnell to run for this seat. Mitch McConnell called it the greatest get of the year, getting Larry Hogan to. Getting Larry Hogan to run.

But I think Larry Hogan is going to have a very difficult time trying to show the people of our state that you can be an independent while at the same time knowing you were recruited by Mitch McConnell. You've already said you were going to caucus with the Republicans, and you will vote with the Republicans, giving the Republicans the 51st Senate seat. And on issues that we care deeply about, I mean, abortion rights is going to be on the ballot in the state of Maryland to make it part of our constitution. I think Larry Hogan has showed that he is not where the people of Maryland are. He is not pro choice.

Think people will make sure we remember that in November. Governor, it's your friend Alex Wagner. Last time I talked to you, we were talking about the black male vote. And, you know, we had some polling to suggest that the Trump campaign was making inroads with voters of color, specifically black men. TheTrump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

Trump. Just a couple of things. He said. This was a, I thought, a pretty well written line.

America's ruling class wrote the checks. Communities like mine paid the price for decades. That divide between the few with their power and comfort in Washington and the rest of us only widen. Take Washington out of there and put Wall street and the hedge funds that he comes from. This is somebody who, as you pointed out, is the creature of Peter Thiel.

He's not the, you know, he wrote hillbilly elegy, but other than writing that book, what has he done that has impacted in a positive way? And what is he proposing that has impacted in a positive way? The working class? Meanwhile, here is an Associated Press headline from today. America's aging infrastructure is getting an upgrade.

The I 95 bridge that connects Tennessee and Arkansas across the Mississippi river is going to be upgraded. This funding, it was provided by big infrastructure, President Biden's infrastructure bill. If you drive anywhere in this country right now, you see what I would call Biden bucks, and they should probably just call it that at this point. You see this infrastructure spending happening everywhere. You see it more if you're in a red state.

I saw it more when I was down south. I saw it more even in Louisiana, someplace that Biden will not win, but you could physically see it. And you see these workers with jobs that's provided by Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Actually, this is a speech that actually could have been written for Joe Biden, because Joe Biden has governed as a working class guy.

He's a genuinely working class person. And his programs and policies have been hugely beneficial, not just to the working class, but to the working class red states. And the proof of that is that all these Republicans are running around taking credit for it, and they voted against it, but they're running around at the groundbreakings at the Joe Biden programs that he's providing for the working class. Alex, I know that there was not the same red meat sort of blood and soil nationalism that you might hear in, I don't know, other parallel universe republican conventions. But I do think there were some sort of Easter eggs of white nationalism in this.

One of the things that stuck out to me was when he started talking about what America is. He said, america is not just an idea. It is a group of people with a shared history and a common future. The thing about America is that it's not a group of people with shared history. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue it's quite the opposite.

It's a lot of people with different histories, different heritages. His in laws don't share the history. Exactly. And that's the other piece of it. He went along sort of a paragraph, at least, about this plot in eastern Kentucky where his seven or six generations of his family are buried.

And his hope is that his wife and he are eventually laid to rest there, and their kids follow them. And I sort of understand the idea of sharing the burial plot, but it also reveals someone who believes that the history that the family should inherit, and indeed the history that should be determinative in the story of the Vance family is the history of the eastern Kentucky Vances, and not the vances from Santo bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

to bleeding on this topic. It would be good if you would tell the Democrats what to do in terms of the nominating calendar in relation to the Ohio ballot, there remains some confusion as to whether that law takes effect in September.

And if it only takes effect in September, does that mean a nomination done on, say, August 20 won't fit this law that changed the date? If we could have got that question to him. Governor, can you guarantee that the nominee at the democratic convention in the week of August 20, can you guarantee that that nominee will be on your Ohio ballot? That would have been a very interesting answer. The DNC does not believe that.

They are not confident in it at all. And the rules committee folks have been very clear. And again, I think I said this yesterday, there's a letter circulating among them saying that they believe, not only do they have believe that they will not adhere to that law, that there's a 90 day waiting period that they feel is a gray area. They feel that there might be lawsuits as to whether or not the Democratic Party can put a name on that ballot. They are not confident that there won't be shenanigans.

And that is one of the reasons they were trying to move up this virtual vote. I was just going to say in terms of the biting on their tongue until it bleeds. I mean, I think the thing they want is for this excruciating, initiating liminal status to extend as long as possible. I mean, I don't know. I bet you if you sat at the hotel bar tonight with a bunch of them, they would tell you what they think this way or that.

My general sense is they think, here's what I'll say at the 30,000 foot view, which is definitely clear from the conversations I've had and clear from what they're saying. They're measuring the drapes. They think this is done. Marjorie Taylor Greene sitting behind Donald Trump. Trump, like the one who went to, like, you know, the weird, like, alt right sort of Holocaust denial adjacent conference.

Like, no, no, no. The literally out loud praising Hitler conference. Yes, sorry. Yes, I was. I was being too.

She's there and she's sitting behind him. They, you know, they named JD Vance with his record on abortion, which I don't think he mentioned once tonight in the entire speech. Not a single one. Didn't come up once for it. Not.

No. Redh smart. They are acting with the kind of swagger and a kind of confidence that, like, we have this in the bag and I'll. Nothing changed. Cause we're gonna.

40 states. Nothing changed between. That's how they are acting. That's how they're acting out now. I will also say, I don't know if they're right.

Like, you know, I have. No one knows. It reminds me a little bit of, like, Democrats after access Hollywood. Yes. Where it's like, oh, this is done.

What are we talking about here? How long is he going to last? Hillary Clinton was like, I can't lose to this guy. They went in with supreme confidence. We do not know that as Joe Biden.

Yeah. He remembers overconfidence in 2016 and not being part of that. I would also just mention that Mike DeWine was a senator. And so I suspect that there might have been a little personal comedy maybe there, because a lot of these politicians from the old days, they know Joe Biden. And I think probably have a bit of respect for him.

Maybe that was part of why he was so circumspect. Yeah, it's fascinating. These dynamics are fascinating. Our colleague Stephanie rule is in Milwaukee at the now rapidly emptying five surf center in beautiful glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

glide path. They think, they think, they think. But the reality of it is, as long as the Democrats stay parked on the side of the road and can't put out a counter narrative to what we heard tonight and the way we heard it tonight and what we will certainly hear tomorrow, here we go.

Rachel. Michael Steele, Stephanie Rule. Thank you. Make sure you turn out the lights on your way out. We know we can trust you both.

Jen Psaki, I wanted to get your take on JD Vance's speech. There's one specific thing I wanted to ask you about, too. There was one, like, actually quite sour note in the speech, which was an ad lib where he is talking about having gone to Ohio, Ohio State University, and there was a Michigan Ohio state. And then he said, as an ad lib, we've had enough political violence. Ha ha, ha.

And I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't think of myself as a shrinking violet around these things, but it does strike me as quite too soon and maybe too soon ever to be making that kind of a crack at this convention at this week when his running mate is sitting there with a bandage on his ear from an assassination attempt. That struck me as like actually quite a notable and sour ad lib moment. But other than, what did you think about that? What did you think about the speech right now? I had the same reaction.

I mean, I was sitting upstairs, not with many people, and I got, I'm not a shrinking violet, but I kind of gasped in the moment. And you're wondering what went through his head and did he think, I shouldn't have done that? Not that I'm excusing him, but that is my bet. I read the speech before I watched the speech, and reading the speech, I thought, this is a, I don't agree with things in here, but it is a well constructed speech. When you read it, he did not deliver it well.

And that was clear from within the first minute or two, I think the purpose of this speech, which I know we've been talking a lot about and all the fact checking, which is so true and so interesting, there are Joe Biden policies in here. You know, technically, the purpose of the speech, I think, is Meemaw. You know, the purpose of the speech was to introduce him to the republican electorate. It, and he may have done that even though he were great and those stories were great. That's all great.

But he may have checked the box on that. I would also say that this is sort of one of the things that happens when you pick your running mate two days in advance. What's clear here, Vice President Harris is a pretty meticulous prepper, but she's probably going to be practicing on the teleprompter soon. I don't know if he wrote the speech beforehand. I think he may have written it Monday, but it was clear he hasn't practiced it many times.

That was also clear to me. So that was all striking. I would say one thing about what Michael still said, this is kind of, this is a very messy situation for the Democratic Party. I'm not going to sugarcoat that this is the best time for this to be happening. You're never really breaking through in the other party's convention.

That's just like, not what really happens. You're saying for the Democrats to be having this crisis, then these crisis conversations around their ticket, it's good to be happening during the. Well, yeah, because they got to resolve it soon, but they're gonna be overshadowed in this moment anyway. So I'm not trying to kind of shine this too much, but I will say I'm not sure I agree with that particular piece that Michael made. Let me just add one more piece of reporting as we're sort of coming up to the top of the hour here.

The New York Times had some really detailed and interesting new reporting about the shooting on Saturday, including some really striking details about the shooter. Some of it is process related and very worrying. Local officers spotted the young man who eventually was the shooter quite a long time before the shooting happened. 20 minutes before the violence erupted, a sniper spotted him. They took his picture, they passed his picture around, but then they lost sight of him and didn't know where he was.

That's disturbing in terms of the way this was handled as a law enforcement matter. But apparently since they got onto his phone, they found that not only did he search for images of Mister Trump, he also searched for images of Biden, Merrick Garland, and FBI director Christopher Wray. He typed in major depressive disorder and searched for dates and places for appearances, not only for Trump, but also for Biden. And we do not know what this means yet. New York Times reporting this this evening.

We've got much more when our special coverage of the RNC continues in just a moment. Do stay with us.

Introducing MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts get early access to new original podcasts from MSNBC and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's chart topping, award winning original series, including season one and season two of Ultra Bagman and Deja News, plus exclusive bonus content and new episodes of the Rachel Maddow show and Morning Joe. Ad free subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.