Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Doctor John Deloney, Ramsey personality number one best selling author, is my co host today, also host of the ever popular Doctor John Deloney show. If you check it out on Ramsey networks and anywhere great podcasts are sold, you'll check him out there. He's our PhD around here. Helps folks with counseling issues. And it's going to work right into everything we do here today, for sure. Open phones at 888-825-5225 Clay is in Amarillo, Texas. Hi, Clay. How are you?

Good, sir. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up in your world?

Winds blowing and we're dry. That's about it.

Sounds like Amarillo.

Yes, sir. I'm a rancher down here. I'm 25. Bought my first ranch or bought my only ranch when I was 21. I had a question on. I follow you guys on social media, stuff like that. Listen to you on the radio, but you talk about not having debt, and I'm wondering how you run an operation without an operating note. Well, because even though cattle prices are through the roof right now, there's other things that are expensive as well.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sitting in a building that's about $600 million and a studio that this studio is probably, I don't know, 10 million probably. And the way we did that, with a $300 million revenue, we started on a card table in my living room with absolutely no money. Just me, me, myself, and I. That was the whole freaking board of directors. And I started with the promise that I would never borrow money because I'd gone broke borrowing money. And because I read the Bible and it said the borrower slave to the lender. And I'm a simpleton, and I believed it. And I'm just not borrowing money. So the way I have gone from a card table to where I'm sitting today without borrowing money is. It sounds like a Saturday Night live skit. But to start with, Clay, I just didn't borrow money. I mean, that's it, period. I'm not going to borrow money for anything. Now, that what that means then, is, how do I run a business? How do I grow a business like, I've grown this one without borrowed money? And that is, I grew it more slowly than some of my friends who are now out of business because the bank foreclosed on them during COVID I grew it more slowly than some people thought I should, who thought they were smarter than me, who have less money than me now.

I grew it slowly, frustrated the crap out of me because I wanted to go faster, because what we do is help people. And, gosh, by going slowly, we're not helping as many people as we could help. And that's really frustrating. And I grew it slowly because it's all I had. Because I can only use my profits to grow with. I can only use my profits to buy equipment with. I can only use my profits to add payroll and new team members with. It's my only option. And it forces me to be very selective. It forces me to say no to a lot of things. But then, when times are tough, I don't have a note, and I'm still here, and I'm still growing, and we're still the number one brand in the entire space in the nation. There's no one even close to us with a social media footprint in the space that we're in or the podcasting or the YouTube footprints or the revenue that we produce and the. The amount of people interacting with every dollar. Nobody's even close. We freaking own the space. We are the 800 pound gorilla now. But that's the way we got there, is we were a starving little monkey that didn't borrow money, you know?

And so that's it. I mean, it's not. It's not rocket surgery. It's just. It's just that. But it's hard to do because you're obviously a sharp dude. I mean, who goes and buys a ranch at 21? Well, it's not a wuss. You're obviously a stud, man. You're going for it. Who's out there operating a business like you're already operating at 25 years old? Way to go, man. You know? And so you. You got ambition. You got things. You got things you want to do. You have an idea in the shower every morning that you can't do if you don't borrow money. And some of those ideas suck, by.

The way, Clay, how much in the hole are you if you. If you put all of your liabilities out on the table, how big is. How big is a hole?

About half a million.

And I know you're not supposed to ask this in the 806, but how big is your ranch?

It is 250.

Okay, good for you. What are you running on it?

Cattle.

Cows?

Yeah. Because cow prices, you said. Yeah. Okay. Cattle prices are up. And so, by the way, 910 to.

That is the place itself, of course.

Yeah.

Like, it's mortgage. I do owe a little bit of money on some cows. I've got two payments left on those, but other than that, that's the only debt that I have.

Well, you've. You pretty much avoided debt except for your real estate mortgage. And so that. That's a yes. That's far beyond what a lot of people in your world do. As you know, the farming and ranching world is big on debt. And they think they can't do it if they don't have an $800 million combine that runs circles by itself with a gps and does a double backflip at the end of the row.

It's got a pool in the back. I rode in one of those, Dave. It was air conditioned. It was nicer than my car.

Yeah. Oh, way nicer. The stereo system is better?

Oh, yeah, much better. Hey, Clay, I want you to check out the carbon cowboys. These guys that are changing the way ranching is done. And their proposition is you don't have to borrow this kind of money for the fertilizer, for the equipment. It's just a radical shift. And they're in there, they're net neutraling the dollar. They're dollar for dollar. So give them a shot, too, just to check them out. How they're doing farming. It's pretty impressive.

So what I would tell you this, Clay, is this. In the radio world, the broadcast world, it's like the farming world in the sense that everybody borrows money, but most people don't make it ten years. They're out of business in a ten year cycle. Because the risk that goes with the borrowed money. You feel the pinch. That's why you're asking the question.

Oh, yeah. I mean, we're not struggling, but it's great. We don't do anything extravagant.

No, but it makes you think. You have to stop and think, I got this note. Every time you get ready to do something, you got to think, I got to make this note.

And last year it didn't rain. It got pretty dicey, didn't it?

Oh, yes, sir. This spring.

Yeah, that's right. There's fires, there's. It's drought. I mean, it's tough.

Tough sled. What we are proposing is not only countercultural in America, it's super countercultural in the farming and ranching world. But the ones that do it have a longer life in business and they have a better quality of life, but they grow slower.

They grow slower and they don't have.

You know, you don't go from 250 acres to 2500 in 20 minutes, but.

You have those if you do it right. You have those, um, antifragile moments when, let's say it all goes, let's, let's say there's a bad drought for three years, and you've, you've just kept tortoise in the hair and you just kept plugging along and plugging along and your ranch got bigger by ten acres and you bought 15 over here and you bought this. Eventually, um, the drought wipes out your neighbors and they have to sell you their ranch for pennies on the dollar. And that's what if you hang on and hang on and hang on.

That's what happened here suddenly.

Oh, I just tripled my footprint for very little money because I just went slow.

Yeah. The number of times I bought out vendors inventory of pennies on the dollar, the number of times I bought out competitors stuff at pennies on the dollar over the years because I'm sitting on the cash, I got no notes going slow. And I'm the only guy that's boring.

It's so boring.

It's not sexy. It's not. Nobody thinks you're cool. You're not on the COVID of Fast Company magazine, you know, which, by the way, has been through four owners. This is the Ramsey show. So here's a quick math. There are only 24 hours in a day, so your business needs to streamline tasks that are time suckers and focus on activities that make money. So to reduce headaches as they scale, smart businesses use Netsuite by Oracle, the number one cloud financial system. Netsuite helps you improve efficiency by bringing all your major business processes into one platform. So join the more than 37,000 smart businesses like Ramsey solutions that have done the math and graduated to Netsuite. And right now, you can download Netsuite's KPI checklist absolutely free@netsuite.com. ramsey. That's netsuite.com Ramsey, the number one bestselling book is building a non anxious life. That's his latest number one. Doctor John Deloney Ramsey personality, is my co host today. The best way to make the most of your money is by telling it what to do instead of wondering where it went. That's called a budget. Give every dollar an assignment. That's why we named the world's best budgeting app every dollar.

And now over 50 million people have downloaded this thing. And if you haven't, that means you're strange. So you should go get it. Go check it out. Learn how to do a budget, learn how to do a plan, learn how to work with your spouse and make every one of your dollars behave, and suddenly you will start moving away from debt and towards wealth. It's amazing how that happens. You can download everydollar for free in the app store or the Google Play locations. And of course, you can go to everydollar.com and get started. Now, if you do the advanced version where you connect to your bank and all that stuff, we'll help you work through the baby steps. We'll help you do paycheck planning, lay everything out in great detail. There's all kinds of coaching available. This app is off the chain. Be sure and check it out. Every dollar. You can download it for free, and you should. Tyler is in Kansas City. Hi, Tyler. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thanks for taking the call.

Sure. What's up?

So my wife and I, particularly in an interesting situation, we are trying to juggle between prioritizing, saving up for a house to get her out of a job that's not the best environment within the next two to three years, or prioritizing the debt we already have, which is not much, and paying that off now. And so.

I'm confused how you getting a house gets her out of a toxic environment.

So, with her job, we actually have provided housing on space for where she works. So as soon as she quits the job, we don't have the housing that we live on.

Okay. So you could rent.

True.

I left university housing, and me and my wife rented a house. I was a dean of students at a fancy university. You can do it.

Okay. So, okay, to further my question, then, with the money that we have currently, should we just, like, go right into renting? Because the renting expenses are going to be more than what we possibly could afford in the environment that we're in. We're saving up about $1,000 a month. Not on top of the investing and all the other steps that we're doing with every dollar and the baby steps towards a house.

But you can't afford it. You can't afford a house. You can afford the payment on a house, but you can't afford a house. Do you know the difference?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. I'm afraid you're gonna wake up in six months and have gotten her out of this job, and then y'all got this house payment, and then you got this debt, and then she's gonna end up pregnant, or y'all gonna have a car emergency, and then you're gonna have a mess.

Yeah. This is one. One toxic environment to another toxic environment.

Okay.

And I've lived in a house two different times that I really couldn't afford. And it has created so much tension in this. In my home that it almost cost me my marriage. I just. I can't tell you enough. Don't do that.

Okay?

Go rent a house and let smoke clear. On your marriage, on her. All that pain, all that toxicity, all that nightmare stuff. Let that smoke clear, and that'll give you some time.

What is the nature of the toxicity at the world?

So, two factors. Once she works right now, between 60 and 70 hours a week in a labor intensive job, she's a female. She's 120 pounds. So that's impacted. Secondly, the position that her authority is in is borderline emotionally abusive. And it's not a good environment. I mean, there's nothing physically going on, but it's just a really tough environment. It puts a lot of stress on her. Personally.

I'm not sure I completely understand, because sometimes I hear things that people say are emotionally abusive. Like somebody said, hey, go get your job done. You're emotionally abusive. No. You're freaking lazy. Go get your job done. That's not emotionally abusive.

Yeah. And so that's not. That's not the environment I'm talking about. I'm talking about, like, going back on their word or, you know, overworking her under promising stuff like that. And so that's where I'm personally in a space where, hey, like, I want her out of.

How long has she been in this position?

She's been in this position and the current position within the company for the last two years.

And how old are you guys?

So I am going on 27 and she's 26.

Okay. All right. Well, as far as I'm concerned, if I'm in your shoes and I've been in similar situations over the years, there are two options. One is, you know, this is so bad. For real. We're not just using the fact that this is not just discomfort. There's a difference between discomfort and a toxic environment. If she's working 120 hours a week and she says, I'm not willing to work 120 hours a week, or I'm not willing to work 80 hours a week, or I'm not willing. I'm willing to work this number of hours, then they fire her. Then that's their option. But you can just start having, like, boundaries. Like, when somebody starts speaking to you inappropriately, you say, hey, whoa, whoa. You know, you can't talk to me that way. You can fire me, but you can't talk to me that way.

Absolutely.

So your wife's ability to say no to her or to this environment is part of the problem, her lack of boundaries. And that's why, you know, and so if she cannot put up reasonable boundaries to say, okay, I can only work a reasonable number of hours. I'm 120 pounds. I can't lift, you know, heavy boxes all day long, 16 hours a day, I can't do that. I can. I can work 8 hours or I can work 10 hours, and I like my job, and I like the benefits, and I like the money you give me, and I can do that, and I'm not going to be yelled and screamed at or cussed at. And so you got to talk to somebody else. That way, if you're going to. And suddenly bullies pull back then and don't bully as much. That's one option is deal with the situation, suck it up, and push on through. Or the other option is go rent something. But going using this situation to justify doing something stupid and getting your family in a pinch and saying, oh, the only thing we could do to get away from this toxic wicked witch of the west is to go buy a house we couldn't afford and go bankrupt.

These are too negative options. And if you're. I'm choosing between two negative options. No, let's go with c. None of the above.

And, Tyler, I want to double click on what Dave said because it's really important for the character or in the strength of your home. If you leave an environment because somebody kept beating you down and you have to, it takes years to heal from abuse, it disconnects you from yourself.

Sure.

If she has her head up high and said, you kept telling me that this. You were going to hire three people, and you haven't. You're dishonest. I refuse to do work that you. That I told you I'm physically unable to do. I can't work 90 hours a week like Dave said. I can work 50, I can work 60 in limited runs, and the rest of time, I got to be with my family. If y'all can't be people of character and integrity, I'm going to walk out that door. And when you walk out like that, not. I'm. It's emotional, abusive. No, they're just not telling the truth. They're lying to you. But you walk out with your shoulders thrown back, and that sets the tone for your home. That sets the tone for the next job she applies to. It helps you see the world a little more clearly than walking through disconnected from yourself.

That's a little bit more of taking the victor position victim.

That's right.

Yeah. And that. That's a setting as setting a solid boundary with people who don't like boundaries, you generally drives them nuts. And they go. They usually lose their minds and they may fire you. I mean, so when people want that, don't appreciate that they're standing on your property, they're taking some of your hours, they're taking some of your emotional well being, and then you say, you can't do that anymore. I'm going to set up a boundary. I'm not going to give you as many hours, and I'm not going to give you my emotional well being. You can't stand on my. Get off my lawn. You know? You know, and when you say that to somebody who's used to getting away with it, they generally go nuts.

Right. But I've had a boss that I said, if you say these things to me again, I'm gonna walk out of that door. I've said that. And they circle back and said, man, I'm sorry. And it was, it was offensive. It was rude, what they were saying, but it was, they said, I'm sorry. I won't happen again. And it didn't, it never did again. But it was me just saying, you can't swear at me in this meeting again. I'm gonna get up and walk out of the room. And it was, I'm sorry. You're right. I'm sorry.

But.

So there was just standing up. But I also had to be prepared, man. They could have said, well, you can take your bag and walk out that door. Right.

They could do that, too, because they're in that position.

You're in that position.

And, you know, so if you got fired from a place, you were going to quit. If they kept screwing you, that's not like a loss.

No.

Yeah, that's like a gain. So, you know, because you said you can't do this anymore, they go, okay, well, instead of leaving, because I would recommend setting some boundaries at a minimum as step one and to create. To lower the toxicity. I don't know that you'll get rid of it because you're probably dealing with a moron. But. But you can lower the level of moronic influence and, you know, really you can. You can just by limiting. It's what a boundary does. I'm putting up a shield here. You can't come inside the shield. I, you know, I'm extending my personal space. You got all up in my stuff here, and I'm going to create a little room here and you're in my personal space. And when you do that, it changes a lot of stuff for you. I'd recommend doing that as step one. Step two is if you get fired or decide you can't take it and you quit, go rent something cheap and go someplace. If you got to move out of the city, go move out of the city and rent something cheap. I don't care, but don't use it. An excuse to do something stupid.

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I've been doing this show since 1992. So 32 years and the first year we went on the air, there was a huge problem in America with credit card debt. And there's still a huge problem. I'm doing no good. I'm not making any progress. There's still a huge problem with credit card debt. Google trends recently reported in the US how to lower credit card debt in quotes reached an all time high as a search item. For those that don't know, Google trends as part of the Google reports what people are searching for. There it is. Okay, so what this means is that more people than ever before, well, since Google, not ever, but since Google are searching for how to lower credit card debt. That makes sense. In 2024, we now know that credit card debt has gone over a trillion with a t dollars. So how do you pay off your credit cards fast. What do you do? Well, this is what we've been doing. As a matter of fact, if you like Google Dave Ramsey, the first thing you're going to hear is how to get out of debt. Right, John? I mean, it's like they may not know I know how to do anything else, but they know I know how to do that.

On your license plates, it actually is says zero debt. Yeah, on my license plate on a very nice car. And so, but that's because the car doesn't have debt. That was the message. Because you can't drive a car like that unless you have debt. Everybody knows that. But you can't drive a car like that if you've got debt. And so here's an interesting thing. Here's something for you to think about, folks. We live in the most marketed to society, culture in the history of mankind. In the United States of America, you receive more marketing impressions across your eyes and ears in a given day. More money is spent, more brain power and sophistication is spent to sell you things than any group of humans in the history of mankind ever. At this moment, marketing, selling things to you in ads and Google pop ups or whatever, whatever it is you want to do, whatever ad, whatever version of advertising or marketing you want to think about, you get a diet out there of that. That's greater than man has ever gotten any time in history. No one has ever walked the earth that has been hammered like you've been hammered by marketing.

That's a pretty bold and big statement. But it's also true. It's not hard to figure it out that that's the truth. And here's what's interesting. Among all of that, the most dollars that are spent to sell a single product line, more than any other product line, any other mindset, any other thing you want to sell, any other brand you want to sell out there. The most advertised and marketed product in dollars and in brainpower, by far in the most marketed two culture in the history of mankind is debt. More money is spent to sell you on getting in debt in the most marketed to culture in the history. This is not, this is a big deal. In other words, when you add up what Mastercard, American Express, discover and visa spend in a year, it's more than all the professional sports make in a year. It's more than Egypt takes in for their entire economy in a year.

Just.

To sell you those four pieces of plastic. And they are good at it. They, the things just magically show up in your mailbox your inbox, your dead dog from four years ago will be issued its own line of credit, and it'll show up in a credit card on your mailbox. Frou Frou, the dead poodle will get a credit card in America today. I've got it. I've got a copy of Frou Frou, the dead poodle's dog. A guy sent it to me from New Orleans. He says, I actually, and a guy in North Carolina applied with a fraudulent Social Security number under the name Buck naked and was issued a $20,000 line on a Visa card. Wow. Because they don't even look, they don't even check your credit on about, but about one out of ten of the applications. And so they issue these pieces of plastic like water going down a drain, and you're walking around like, I'm somebody, because they. You're not somebody. You don't even necessarily breathe for you to get a credit card. You don't even necessarily have to be a breathing human to get a credit card. I've just proven that to you.

These are not made up stories. It's the most aggressively marketed product in America today. And people are walking around going, I'm still. I have, I have a, I have a platinum titanium.

It's a platinum version of a precious.

Plutonium american express card that you can't even cut up because it's made from plutonium.

Dave, can I tell you something embarrassing? In college, when I got out and I had student loan debt and I was broke.

Oh, I did.

And no, I got, I got a.

Gold, I got a gold Amex.

I got a card. I'm not lying to you. I called the number on the back and said, I need to talk to an account executive. They sent me through. I told her thank you. I thanked her for taking a chance on me. And she was like, you know, we just felt like. And I was like, hey, it's pretty awesome.

And she's recording the call. They're playing it back the next morning right now.

They're playing it right now. They're like, see, we're doing a service. I thanked her, man.

So what we teach people is, here's Wells Fargo bank have plastic surgery. Don't fall for this. You are a sucker to the man. You're a sucker to the largest marketing machine ever known to man. What's in your wallet? Money. That's what's in my wallet money, because I don't have this crap. My wallet. I don't have to go to the chiropractor because there's 73 credit cards in my wallet, and I sit sideways every day with my back pocket, you know, and my. So my back's out of alignment. I've actually found people that did that. They stay their back heels.

The George Costanza wallet.

Yeah, when they got rid of this. So plastic surgery. Having a plastic me will change your life, Dave. You don't have any credit cards? I don't have any credit cards. I haven't any credit cards for 40 years. How do you. Well, by the way, I just got back. I took a little tour from London to Iceland, and I just got back day before yesterday. And you know what? I have a credit card. It's amazing. You know what they took over there? Debit cards. Just like credit cards. They had no difference. And did the currency exchange, did the whole thing. And I actually had, you know, a big old wad of cash in my pocket because I always care because american dollars are taken almost everywhere. It's amazing they find a way to take them. You know, if you go, you know, you can go in the poorest country in the world. No, go. Yeah, I'll take that. But, um, very few times, you know, I found. Found a few people that snooted me and said, you need a euro sometimes in Europe, but most of the time you just walk around with a dollar. But, I mean, everywhere I was, they took plastic.

And so I obviously had no issue, and I just dropped my little debit card in there. I have four pieces of plastic in my wallet, a debit card on my business, a debit card on my personal account, my driver's license and my handgun carry permit. That's all that's in my wallet. Other than green presidents faces and lots of those of different kinds. By the way, I like to. I like to click different colors or different, different faces on there. Yeah. So guys, don't fall for this crap. And don't tell me your debit card is not safe. It's got the exact same fraud protection, exact same fraud protection as your credit card. Go look it up on visa.com. it's called a zero liability policy. Look it up on Mastercard.com, dot. They both have the exact same phrasing on their websites, like they were owned by each other or something. But the debit cards got the exact same stuff. Listen, shut up. You're not going to get rich borrowing money at 18%. That's just straight up stupid on a string, okay? You've got to make a decision. I'm not going to live like this. And these people they're stupid, man.

They just keep doing it. Look at this one new Wells Fargo credit card program with a novel feature. You can use it to pay your rent, but it may not be working out quite as well as the bank at hope. Wells Fargo is losing as much as $10 million a month rent on this new car. So you're telling me people that pay rent with their credit cards, a credit card that was designed to help them pay rent that they couldn't afford. Oh, wait, so you're loaning money to broke people and you're bitching because they don't pay it? Shut up. Wells Fargo. You're getting what you deserve. You signed up for this trip, guys, boys and girls, really, you got to decide, are you going to be like everybody else? Everybody else is walking around collecting airline miles. Millionaires. They stack cash. This is the Ramsey show.

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Doctor John Deloney Ramsey, personality, is my co host today. Dave is in Orlando. Hi, Dave. How are you?

Hi, Dave. I'm doing great. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up? Great.

So my wife and I are really excited. So we are adopting our two foster kids.

Awesome.

Way to go.

Thank you very much. We are super excited. They are two and three years old brothers, and we just couldn't be happier. So, should happen in August. And my question is, you know, we've always tried to be really financially smart and good with our finances. Obviously, we want to pass that on to our kids. But being that they are in the system, they are going to get money every month. Dollar, 650 a month per child until they're 18. And naturally, this is their money. I want to keep it for them. So my question is, what is the best way to go ahead and save this for them? Should I open up a brokerage account in their name? Should it be an utma? I was looking into a 529, but that's actually not needed because they're exempt from paying tuition in Florida. So what are your thoughts? What should I do?

What's your household income?

Right now it's 230.

Okay. All right. You're welcome to do whatever you would like to do. I would not do what you're doing. You're going to discover very quickly that it costs a whole lot more than $650 a month to raise a kid. And so I would dump the 650 a month into the budget and then just raise the kids. And as a part of raising the kids, I'm going to invest and become wealthy and leave them a big old pile of money and have some money for them when they come out of college and have some money for them. But you're not morally, ethically, and certainly not legally bound to set this money aside for them. And you're. It's not inherently unholy to just mix it into the family budget because you're spending more than that on them by far. You're gonna spend a lot more than that on them.

Okay. Yeah, that was, that was actually. So that was my, my wife's thoughts when, when we talked about this, or she had that idea as well.

So 529 is not needed. But, you know, if you just have mutual funds that are not in retirement that you're investing in, and those funds are nicknamed, you know, I'm going to leave that. Make sure this is to help them get their first house. This is to help them get started after they get married. And they're 25. Right. And, you know, you dump some money in there occasionally and you try to, you know, and then when they. Because you're going to be a multimillionaire. If you're doing the stuff we're teaching, it sounds like you're very responsible. You're making a quarter of a million dollars a year. And so, you know, if you've got a couple of accounts, like you got a couple of accounts laying around, they got a couple hundred thousand bucks in them that are kind of earmarked for the kiddos, and you're gonna help them buy their first house or you're gonna help them do whatever out of that then. But there's no compulsion to keep it completely separate and clean, morally, ethically, legally or anything. People do that with child support sometimes, or they do it with. If a spouse passes away, you get Social Security money for the spouse that passed away to the kids.

They get. They get big checks or not big check, but good checks like you guys are getting. And so, you know, that kind of stuff. And in all those cases, we just say there's no need to mix child support, just mix it in the budget. There's no need to take the Social Security money and hold it aside. Just mix it in the budget and you got what you guys are doing. You're going to be such great moms and dads because your heart is so pure on this. You guys are amazing. Thank you for, for what you do, what you're doing. And those kids are blessed to have you.

Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm going to try not to cry, but we love them so much, you know, and we weren't able to have kids biologically, but, but now that we're here and everything we've gone through, we know it was, it was all for a reason and we just couldn't be happier. And just, just one last comment. You know, we, we are baby steps millionaires already. So, so we are, you know, on a good path. And last thing with the kids, we're getting $10,000 for each kid because I am a veteran as well, so I'm a. With that, too. Would just our budget. And they'll be set up. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, again, your, your biggest thing here is not the actual dollars that you leave them as, you know, your biggest thing is to transfer your value system, which got you where you are called hard work and thrift and generosity. These are your financial values. You work hard. You, you don't, you know, you've studied hard to get to be who you are. You know, teach them those things. Teach them live on less than you make. Teach them live on a budget with a plan. Teach them. You know, when you were three and we adopted you, we started thinking right then about you paying, about paying cash for your first house so that you never are in debt and that will set you guys up to be millionaires real quickly. And, but, but that comes with some strings. It comes with you being a good human because I'm not going to give you this money for doing heroin.

Yeah.

You know, and so this is just, you weave this whole narrative of handling money wisely as a part of your parenting structure. And, John, that changed. That does change everything, doesn't it?

Yeah, I'm just. I'm just overcome a little bit, man. I'm getting choked up a little bit. But with the, with the level of gratitude for a family like Dave, who took one of the most painful experiences, unable to have kids, and they grieved it. And then they said, okay, what's the next thing for us? To do as a family. And they're gonna adopt to two little brothers. And it's beautiful now. And I know it's gonna be hard to be a hard road to hoe. And it's a pretty amazing thing that they're doing. But I think you're right. I think parents get so caught up in stuff. I want to be able to give them this thing and give them this thing. And, man, the greatest gift you can give your kids is a living example of values in the real world. Right? Like, let him see you tip well. Let him see you honor that waitress who's the only person running all these tables. And the food wasn't that great. Like, let the kids see you. Be who you are. And that, man, that's money's awesome. Money's nice. But let's transfer values. Let's transfer values.

There you go. Love it. Steve's in Wilmington, Delaware. Hi, Steve, how are you?

Oh, Dave. Thanks, doctor John, thanks for taking my call. I appreciate it.

Sure. How can we help?

Okay. I think. I feel like I'm stuck in the mud. I read your book, total money maker with a new one. I've been following the steps. I think I'm on baby step four, but somehow I got backwards. And my emergency fund that I feel is in a brokerage account in a smart investor fund. So my question to you is, should I leave that there and rebuild the emergency fund in a money market account? I think I could fund it probably in three to four months for sure.

That's fine. But you do need a separate emergency fund. Here's what happens that I had to learn because it killed me the first time I ever saved $10,000. And I had to name it an emergency fund instead of an investment. And I put it in a stupid money market account and it wasn't making anything. And then I could start investing the first time I did that because it's the only $10,000 I'd ever had in my life. Or since I've been broke anyway, since I went broke is the only time I had $10,000. And I'd worked so hard to get that $10,000. And now I gotta not invest it from Math nerd. That just broke my heart. Right? And I had to figure out that the emergency fund, the purpose of it, of that $10,000 in that example is not an investment. The emergency fund I always make when I'm doing live events, I make the crowd say, not an investment. 4000 people say, not an investment. Right. It's insurance. Everybody say, insurance. Insurance, right. And what does insurance do? It costs you money to protect the things that make you money. That's what insurance does.

And that's what your emergency fund does. It sucks if you look at it as an investment. It's not an investment, though. It's insurance. And so the money that you're not making, what we call opportunity costs because it's in a high yield savings instead of in a brokerage account, the money you're not making is your cost of that insurance policy.

I call it my soul tax. I pay four to 5% every month to sleep soundly.

Yeah.

And I love it.

Yeah, that's it. So, yeah, Steve, that's a technicality in your case, because you've got it dialed in. You know what's going on. Your intellect has grasped what you're supposed to do. So, yeah, just get your high yield savings account and dump three to six months of expenses in there as your emergency fund. And just anytime you look at it and want to puke a little, just say, not an investment. It's not an investment. It's insurance. And when I buy homeowners insurance, I don't say, oh, that was fun. I always go, it's something I got to do because it's smart to protect that asset. But it cost me money to protect that asset. That puts us our the Ramsey show in the books. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Thanks for hanging out with us, America. We're glad you're here. Open phones at 888-825-5225 number one best selling author of the book building a non anxious life. PhD in counseling and host of the Doctor John Deloney Show. Ramsey personality is my co host today.

Open phones at 888-825-5225 jump in and we'll talk to you about your life and your money. Hillary is with us. Hillary is in Salt Lake City. Hi, Hilary. How are you?

I'm good, thanks. I appreciate the chance to be able to talk to you.

Honored to speak with you. How can we help?

So I just see a lot of people my age or younger bragging and boasting about their nice cars, houses, and vacations, and I just feel like I'm losing it. Life. I live a pretty humble lifestyle, but what am I doing wrong? How do I afford this?

You said people your age. What is your age?

I'm 33.

Okay, you're single?

Yes.

Okay. What do you make?

I make 60,000 before taxes.

Good for you. What do you do?

I'm a health educator.

Cool. Fun. All right. Do you have a lot of debt?

I actually have no debt except for my mortgage, which I only owe 140,000.

Okay. All right, well, this is the problem that the millennial, your generation, was one of the first ones to really, really struggle with it. Rachel Cruz, my daughter, wrote a number one best selling book talking about this whole thing of the power of social media. And the power of. It used to be that we would say, don't keep up with the Joneses. Have you ever heard that old saying?

Of course.

Yeah. But the problem was, in those days, you know, it wasn't as. It wasn't as hard to keep up with the Joneses because they lived next door, and you saw them drive in their car, but you also saw them have big fight, and you also knew that their kids were messed up, and you knew this, and you knew that. So, you know, when they got a car, it wasn't as big a deal, because you kind of knew some of the dirt, too. Right? But on social media, your only thing you're looking at is the highlight reel. You're only looking because nobody posts on there how my husband just got me a 1992 Honda hash blessed. You know, nobody does that. Right?

And nobody posts the three weeks after the beach vacation and the fight around the credit card bill, and we can't.

Buy groceries and diapers.

Yeah. They don't post that.

And so what you're seeing, what you're seeing, and really, our whole culture, even old people like me, that look at social media, we all can fall prey to this because we're not seeing reality. What we're seeing is only what you know. Have you ever seen these pictures of these little, like, all the little children in the little, like, they're five and four and six, and they're all, like, wearing little white suits, and they're on a picnic blanket, and they're at the park, and it's like, oh, we're at the park. When I went to the park with three kids, it looked like freaking ringling brothers and Barnum and Bailey circus. One of them's in the mud, the other one's pulling the other one's hair. We wouldn't have had a picture like that in a million years. Can you imagine taking Rachel Cruz, at four years old, to the park and expecting her to behave? Not a chance. I don't know how these people get. Those are those mannequins. How do they get them to sit like that. Take that picture. That's what you're comparing to.

They push them button now, and it takes a thousand pictures at once, and it catches one, and it's like, that's it, right?

Hey, so shop their own kids.

Hillary, where are you seeing this? Are you seeing on social media? You getting your friends texting you about it, where you see it just kind of everywhere.

I mean, social media is a big part of it, obviously, with tick tock and Instagram and Facebook, but also just, you know, at work, someone says, oh, I'm going to the Bahamas for two weeks, or, oh, look at my new Escalade. And it's just like, have you ever.

Been to the Bahamas?

No, but I'm like, your Escalade cost more than.

Let me just tell you, there's a couple places there that are nice, but there's a whole lot of dumpy crap with a one good picture on the website, too. I mean, it looks like. Like 1960s Holiday Inn down there a lot of times. Be careful with that one. I love the Bahamas. I just love it. But anyway. Yeah, but, I mean, even Atlantis is getting really old. I'm just saying.

Here's Hillary. Here's the. I think it's a both. And, yeah, that Escalade is actually really an amazing car. They're very nice. And 99% chance that's not real money that bought that. And so if you just called into the show and said, I'm a 33 year old single female, I make 60 grand. I only have 120 grand left on a house I bought myself, we would be going, touchdown. We would celebrate you as, like, the model. I'm looking and saying, I hope my daughter Josephine is in that kind of situation. If she finds herself 33, making 60 grand in Utah and she's unmarried, oh, she's exactly the situation you're in. That'd be amazing.

You're amazing. You've done a great job.

You're doing it right. I guess you're the indie filmmaker, and all you have is a camera, and you're telling real stories, and you can't compete with the Godzilla movies that are made in computer labs. That's what you're doing.

Well, that makes me feel better, because I just, you know, and I also recently just paid cash for my master's degree, and so all that money that I had saved, I'm just like, that could have been a vacation or a car. I shouldn't have done that.

Did you just put an investment in yourself for the next 50 years of your life?

You traded a master's degree for Bahamas. This is a good trade.

But, yeah, I just. I guess it's nice to have some reassurance.

Yeah. And here's the other thing I had to go through the thing when I. When I was. I was a little bit younger than you when I went broke. I was 20, and I was driving a jaguar when I went broke, and it broke my heart to drive a hooptie after that. And I drove this horrible old vehicle, and. But I, by then, had become so disgusted with me and how I was behaving with the people, like the people you're talking about. I was buying stuff that, for other people look at. And I got all that completely fried out of my soul when I went broke. And I don't buy anything now for anybody except for Sharon and me. I don't even care if my kids like it. Matter of fact, I kind of like it if they don't like it. So I just buy. I buy stuff a hundred percent. I drove a really nice car today because I really like that car. I don't even care if anybody sees it. I like the car, and I had a good time driving it here, and that's the only reason I buy, so. But I used to have to pull up in those hoopties.

I drove a car that was loaned to me that was at 90% Bondo, and the vinyl roof was torn loose across the front, so when you drove it, it filled up with air. It looked like a parachute on top. And so I would pull up at a stoplight after having driven a Jaguar, and the top would settle.

It would deflate.

It would deflate, come back down at the stoplight. Meanwhile, I'm sitting next to people in nice cars that just got home from the Bahamas, and I'm looking at them going, what am I doing wrong? And what? I finally realized that today, if you did that, if you pulled up next to somebody to stop by today, the average car payment at that stoplight is $750. See, I like what you said.

Yes.

Your verbal comment was perfect.

You're winning, Hillary. Okay, Hillary. Hillary, can I poke at one quick thing before we go to break?

Sure.

How much of these. These videos you're seeing, these. These pictures you're seeing of these trips are reinforcing a sense of loneliness, probably.

A lot, because I feel like they just can go do whatever, you know?

Okay.

I want that to be. I want that to be where your emphasis is, not on trying to get the vacation. Should I get a master's degree and pay for it with cash or go on vacation? Of course, get the masters. I want you to start creating opportunities to have friends and community and connection and laughter right where you live. Start cultivating that and it's going to make the other shiny stuff. It's just gonna, it's just gonna not be that big a deal. You're right where you need to be.

Remember, folks, your forever home can be forever, but your interest rate doesn't have to be. We haven't seen a real estate market like this in a long time, and Churchill mortgage can help. Churchill is the only mortgage provider we trust to help you do it the Ramsey way and navigate interest rates over time. Go to churchillmortgage.com to learn more.

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Couple of books to tell you about or remind you of for one thing, many of you are looking for the simple, straightforward plan to get out of debt. Work the baby steps well, the book that taught everybody the baby steps is called the total money makeover. We're celebrating that book because, wow. Now it's actually, was it 20 years, 25 years old? 20 years old, whatever it is. We're celebrating the anniversary of the book and it's just came out with a new version of it, updated it, and for $20 you get the total money makeover and three months of every dollar premium for free. So for less than a movie ticket or a few drinks at Starbucks, you can invest in changing your life. Go to ramsaysolutions.com. get the new anniversary edition of the total money Makeover it is in. It includes three months of the premium version of Everydollar. Also, one of my best friends in the world is a guy named Doctor Henry Cloud that wrote a book called Boundaries. And he's a good friend of John's as well. Well known psychologist. Boundaries is what made Henry a household name for some of you.

He's also written plenty of other books, necessary endings, integrity or two that come to mind and always about relationships and business. And, you know, he's a psychologist and so he's always writing in those veins. And he did something a little risky for him. And he sent me the manuscript and I read it about six months ago when he was in the middle of it and I had tears running down my face. It is I read everything that Henry writes. Number one, he's a world class thinker and author. But number two, he's a good friend. And this is a book completely different than anything he's ever done. It's called why I believe. A psychologist. Thoughts on suffering, miracles, science and faith. So it's my good friend Henry explaining why he believes in God, because he runs in an intellectual world, a bunch of nerds. And. And he said, this is. I've always wanted to tell my friends these things, but I sometimes lose the courage to do it in person and can't find the right venue, and it's uncomfortable. And they always wonder these things about me because they know I'm a person of faith, but they didn't know why and they couldn't.

Couldn't juxtaposition that with their science knowledge, you know?

Yeah. Henry and I were talking a few weeks ago, and I haven't seen him this clear eyed and excited about getting a book out. I mean, this one's sitting on his chest and it sounds pretty remarkable. I can't wait to dig into it.

Yeah, his last book was the number one. Number best, or number one or national bestseller as well. Trust. It just came out about a year ago, I guess, and all about how to build trust and how to regain trust after it's broken and those kinds of things. We had him on the show talking about that, but this is completely. It's a departure for him, and I highly recommend it. Why? I believe it's very well done. It's. If you ever wondered. Oh, there it is. You ever wondered why bad things happen? How can God exist if bad things happen? Oh, yeah, that's classic doctrinal juxtaposition there, right? So how is it that we could have little children suffering and there be an all loving God? How is that possible? How can you, how can you figure that out and work that through from a philosopher's viewpoint or theologians viewpoint? Yeah, it's very interesting. So Henry is a psychologist, tackles all this, why I believe is a brand new book. It comes out today, but recommended highly. Christie is with us. No, I'm sorry, chastity. Chastity is with us. I'm sorry. I got half looked at in San Francisco.

Hi, chasity. How are you?

I'm so good. How are you guys today?

Better than we deserve. What's up?

So I kind of had an awakening moment today. Kind of threw my hands up in the air, and I'm totally at a loss. So I'm calling in to get some advice on a credit card. Of course. I have a $13,000 credit card. Actually, it was 15,500. And I started the baby steps and I got it down to 13 seven. But it's a credit card with interest rate of 26.9. I think I got it when I was younger, but I've had it for like ten years and it's gotten its way, way up there. And now I'm starting to be like, how do I get this down? The interest rate is so high every, every month it goes up to 330. I think it's $330 interest alone. Minimum payment of 450. So I'm just kind of really upset with myself. I have a lot of anxiety and it kind of just gotten out of control. I've tried. I'm thinking about doing the balance transfer, but then you were like, no, it's just, you know, I just don't know what to do.

What do you make?

Trustee.

What's your income?

So it kind of differs because I'm a flight attendant and my hours are kind of all over the place. But this month I'm making probably 5000 without taxes taken out, so probably 60,000 a year. And I don't have a lot of other things. It's just the credit card. My car is paid off. I do pay $1,600 in rent because of San Francisco, but I really don't have anything else other than the stupid credit card.

How did you end up in San Francisco as a flight attendant?

Well, I was kind of lost because I don't have a college degree and I was like, how am I going to be able to make it in the world? And I just, I love traveling, so I just.

How did you end up in San Francisco, though? Being a flight attendant in San Francisco is unusual.

So we have huge bases in these big cities, New York, San Francisco, those kind of places. So I just got stuck with San Francisco kind of.

Oh, they assigned it where they put me.

Could you transfer to a much, much cheaper place to live?

No. Well, and I've been, I have a transfer in right now to Houston.

Okay.

Yeah, that would be like half.

Yeah. But I'm kind of stuck here at least for a year because I am in a lease.

Okay. Is your schedule so inflexible that you don't know or. Let me just. Do you find days?

I know a month.

Okay.

I know a month in advance.

Yeah.

So like next month I'm only making 39,000.

So what are you doing? What are you doing in your office.

On your off days?

Yeah, so the FAA has regulations on how much we can work. We can only like work six days in a row. So on my off days I'm at home.

So the thing I know about anxiety is the more you think about it, the more powerful it becomes. And the only way I've seen anybody be successful, myself included, dealing with anxiety is to head directly through the middle of it with action. And so my challenge to you would be, if you already know, I'm going to have $3,900 next. Next month, which is about $1,100 less money than I normally bring home. You could already be lining up Uber jobs, Uber eats jobs. And is that sexy? No. Is anybody want to be doing that? No. But you could drive from 06:00 a.m. to 06:00 p.m. stuck in that car, making a chunk of money, and you could have this debt knocked out, like, in three or four months, and it'd be gone from your life.

Yeah.

You know, I'm saying, yeah, it's just. I know.

And this is where my anxiety comes into play, because I. I was paying $1,000 on it, like before when I.

Started the big, I want to stop right there. Anything that happened yesterday, I want to. I want to wipe it off, because it's. It's just bleeding all over today. Let's simply make a plan moving forward and act on that plan. What you know is you're going to have fewer days to work next month. You're going to be at home, just sitting at home. Why not take one of those mobile jobs that came out of your area and just get after it? It will be uncomfortable. Yes. Annoying. Yes. All those things. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And we're playing a 120 day game four months down the road. We're going to not owe this debt anymore because we worked really hard for four months. You see what I'm saying?

Your anxiety will go down when you're working all the time. Your anxiety will go down when you're paying off the debt that's giving you anxiety.

And see, Dave, my family's kind of like you. They're like, you just need to go to work. You need to get over it.

So what's wrong? Get over it. Go to work.

Go through it. Don't get over it.

You can over it. Go through.

Go through it.

But. But why not go. What's wrong with going to work?

No, nothing. Okay, good.

Cuz that's what you gotta do, kiddo. That's the answer to your question. Because otherwise, you're just sitting on the couch worse. And you're worried about this anxiety on the couch.

Erase. Who cares about the interest rate? Just go straight through it. $13,000. You can knock this out you paid.

Off in three months. Interest rates are relevant. Mathematic matter.

That's right.

This is the Ramsey show. Doctor John Deloney, Ramsey personality, is my co host today. Steve's with us in Boston. Hi, Steve. How are you?

Good, how you doing?

Better than I deserve, sir. What's up?

So, a couple years ago, my wife passed away unexpectedly after having her second child. So I'm finally mentally, I think, in a place where I can go back to the finances and try to tackle what we had begun. My question becomes that student loan based? Should I withdraw funds from my TSP to pay off my student loans and just move forward with everything from that point, starting fresh or maintain my TSP and just make larger payments into student loans?

Wow. How old are you?

40.

How old was she?

Same age when she passed. She was 38.

What was her name?

I'd rather not.

Okay, good call.

Okay. And it was childbirth?

Yeah. He was born substantially premature, so he had probably five months in a NICU, and he still has. He still has some medical issues, so.

But she passed during childbirth is what you're saying?

Shortly after. Within a day or two.

I'm so sorry, Steve. What do you do, man?

So I work. I work for the government, actually.

And TSP. Yeah. And so what's your income?

Salary? 105. 105,000. And then I collect VA disability on top of that. And that's about 30 a year.

She got 145,000 to work with. And you what savings you had, the co pays and the out of pocket portion that insurance didn't cover wiped it out.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. All right.

Were these student loans, any of them hers? They all yours?

No, they were all mine.

Okay.

All right. And how much debt is the student loan?

About 115, give or take, 32 federal, and then the remainder, it's 85,000 private.

Okay. But 115 total. Okay. All right. Yeah. And you, I think you said you have two children, is that right?

Yes, that's correct.

Okay, so you have a two year old. And how old's the other one?

Four.

Okay. Wow, man. You got your plate full, brother. You're amazing. I'm so proud of you for just. Just getting up every morning. Wow. Well, in the middle of all this strain, raising two little ones, one of them a preemie, and going through the tragedy that you've been through, I think you've done really well to just be where you are, because a lot of people, the. They could, or you could have really done some really dumb things in the last two years and had good reason to have not had your brain working well. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So I think you've done a really, really good job of holding this together. Way to go. The mathematical answer, and the correct answer is no. Don't take money out of your TSP to clear the 115. Although what you're trying to say, what I'm hearing in this story, is enough pain already. I don't want any more pain. I've had enough pain. I've got pain. I don't need any more. I don't want to sacrifice to pay off this student loan debt. I just want this crap to go away. But the problem is, when you pull the money out of the TSP, you're going at the 10% penalty, plus your tax rate, which is 35%. So you're going to pay $0.45 on the dollar to pull this money out, 45% interest. You're borrowing money at to get rid of your student loan. No, don't do that.

Okay?

That's the answer. It's. It would. It would temporarily feel really good to. To have a win, you know? And. And so that's. That's what motivates you to think this way. And I'm really glad you called. I'm gonna beg you not to do that, even though I completely understand them, the pain threshold that you're dealing with. And so I. You know what I'm gonna do is tighten down the budget, and it's gonna take you. You know, if you said 145,000 and we live on 110, then it's gonna take you three years to clean this up. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what I'm gonna do. You're gonna be 43, and you'll be debt free, and you'll be continuing to rebuild your life and have this new version of what tomorrow looks like that you're leaning into. Right?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was kind of. I was thinking along the same lines. I think I just needed somebody to validate it.

Yeah. Well, listen, have you been through financial peace university ever?

No, actually, I haven't.

Okay. I'm going to give that to you as our gift. I'll come alongside you and let you, because that'll give you some. A safe place to learn and even a group of people to be with while they're learning the same things while you're processing, because you've been processing a lot in the last 24 months. Agreed.

100%.

Can you hear us when we tell you that we're proud of you?

Yes. Yes.

It's nice to hear, because I know you've had a lot of long days and long nights and really dark nights, and there's nobody there cheering you on when you're changing diapers and you're changing out, you know, like, you know, pick lines, whatever you're having to do. And we just want to know. We want you to know we see you, and we're grateful for you, man.

Yeah. My son's got a four year old and none of the other problems and the four year olds enough.

Yeah. He shows up kind of haggard sometimes. Yeah.

He ain't got none of the other stuff. He just got the four year old, and that's enough. I'm just saying. Just throw in a two year old for the heck of it and mix in some of this other stuff, man. Wow. Wow. You're. You're a stud, man. Hey, we're here for you if you need us. You call us anytime. We love you. And you hang on. Christian will pick up, and we'll get you guys, get you signed up for financial peace, and we'll walk with you while you move into this next phase of life the way you didn't think it was gonna look. Ouch. Ouch.

That's. That's one of the few things, Dave, I cannot wrap my head around. I can't wrap my head around going home and having the house be quiet and having my wife not be there and then think I'm gonna make good choices the following minute. I just can't wrap my head around it. It's tough.

Yeah.

My heart goes out for people.

We've designed our whole estate plan that I die first. And there's a reason. Yeah, it's because Sharon has a plan.

But I can imagine your estate attorney being like, what happens if Dave?

What happens if you die, Sharon? And she's like, that's not gonna happen.

The estate attorney was like, yeah.

Have you seen the way he eats? No, there's no way. I'm not. She walks 8 miles every morning. There's no chance he's gonna outlive me. Oh, I can't. I can't. I can joke about it. Cause it keep me from crying. But the. I'm with you. I can't. I can't get my head around that. And the sad thing is on this money stuff is that when tragedy happens, and you can give tragedy a bunch of different names, but death of a loved one is certainly tragedy. The math on this stuff doesn't stop.

No, that's the hardest part, man.

And so. So the negative math of the debt just keeps piling up. And the positive math of the investments just keeps piling up.

Right.

Money doesn't care. Right? It doesn't have a soul. It doesn't give you a day off because you're having a bad day. It doesn't give you, it doesn't take a day off because you're not working hard. It's the hardest working when you get working for you.

But what you said was, what you said to this, this, this good guy was. It was so true. I just, dude, I just want to stop hurting. I just want to stop hurting. And sometimes at 11:00 at night when the kids are asleep, but I'm just scrolling by myself, I'll take the 45% hit. I just want this to go away and I'll be able to breathe again.

I need a win.

And you just need a friend to say, hey, please don't do that. Please don't do that.

We'll be your friend.

Yeah, we'll walk with you, man.

That's what we do. And we're honored, honored to be your friend for just a moment here. That's what we do for America. This is the Ramsey show.

Hey, guys, it's Rachel Cruz. Listen, I love to read, so recommending books is one of my favorite things to do. Do you want to have more money and less stress? Grab breaking free from broke by George Camel. If you're in the mood for a little self care, check out building a non anxious life by doctor John Deloney. Or make this the summer where you learn how to talk to your kids about money with smart money. Smart kids. Pick up your summer reads today@ramsaysolutions.com. store. That's ramsaysolutions.com store.

Doctor John Deloney Ramsey personality, is my co host today. Thank you for joining us, America. Today's question comes from Christian in Tennessee. My wife and I went to college and racked up significant student loans. The crux of our problem is that is that part of it was on a parent plus loan that's under her father's name. Her father and mother would like to get rid of that loan. They want us to take it on. We're in no way, shape or form in a position to take on what has now turned into a $60,000 loan. We feel bad, want to help out, but don't know what to do. I hate parent plus loans.

I do, too. I do, too. Thanks for picking me up there. My headphones got all tangled up and I was stumbling and bumbling. Awesome. Okay, Dave, tell me if this rings true with you. I'm 18 years old. Mom and dad have it in their heart that they want to make me happy. So they co sign for this loan for this thing. That's not a cosign, it's a parent plus loan.

They just borrowed it.

They borrow the money on a thing that we can't afford. Assuming there was not an agreement around the kitchen table that we're going to take this parent plus loan, but you're going to be responsible for it. Now they're realizing, oh, this is a $60,000 loan, and they're not in shape to pick it up. Up, and we can't keep carrying this thing, so we need y'all to take it on. At the end of the day. Mom and dad signed the loan. They signed the loan? They signed the loan.

Yeah, yeah. There's a. Legally, just from a legal perspective, obviously, Christian does not all the money, his mom and dad owe the money, period. End of story. Okay. So if you just say no, they got to pay it legally. Now, morally, did you promise them when or did she promise them her father and mother? Did she promise them that she would take on the loan after she graduated and they just took the loan out on her behalf on a handshake? Morally, if that's the case, then you have a different kind of a contract, although it is a contract, it's not a legal contract, but it's a morally binding. She gave her work, in which case, you guys have a loan now. You can't just take on the loan. You can take on the payments. You could pay off the loan. You're not in a position to do that, but you could pay extra payments and pay off the loan. You can treat it like it's your loan, but legally, it never comes out of their name until it's paid off. You can't just decide, I'm going to move this to somebody else's name. They don't let you do that.

Okay. And there's not a consolidation that consolidates your loan into my name? There's no such thing. Okay. So it's gonna stay there in their name if you pay payments and you pay extra payments to get it paid off until it is paid off. But I'm with John. I think the thing that is not in your question, not in your email here, Christian, is did your wife promise her mom and dad at the time they took out the loans, that she would take it on after graduation? If she did, then the two of.

You need to take it on 100%. You need to take it on.

If she didn't. Then I'm sorry that they are inconvenienced by their former decisions. Her mom and dad took on alone. I'm not really sorry. That was sarcasm. But, yeah. Big girl, big, big daddy, big mama done signed up for this thing, and then they're gonna dump it on the kids. Cause I don't like it now. Yeah.

And to get a parent plus loan, that means you've taken out a whole bunch of other loans, too. That is your. Your wife's probably carrying. Right? And if you met at college, you probably got student loans, too. So I can see this whole thing being a big mess. He dave. And this is why we say this over and over and over and over. The number of times this turns into a rift in the relationship between parents and their kids is so high.

Yeah, it's approaching 100%.

Just don't do it, because you're gonna. You're gonna pay for it relationally, down the road. It's just not worth it.

Don't borrow money for other people and don't cosign for anything ever under any circumstances. 100% of the time, this goes sideways, boys and girls. So my little brother needed a car, so I borrowed the money. A hundred percent of the time, my boyfriend wanted a car, so I borrowed the money. A hundred percent of the time, you end up being a caller on this show and entertain the rest of America with your foolishness.

Yeah, if your little brother needs a car and you can give him one, give it to him. But don't borrow money and say, okay, we're gonna have a payment plan.

Your kid wants to go to college. You want to make them happy? Teach them to work. Don't pick a college they can afford or don't go to college. Go be a welder, I don't care. But don't go in debt. Go spend ten grand and go to code school. Make $150,000 coding. Okay, but don't go in debt. This is. The student loan stuff is absolutely stupid. It's so out of control. It's. People are putting off having children and buying homes because of student loans. We must forgive them, but we continue to make them. This is so intellectually dishonest. Out of one side of these politicians mouth, they whine and cry about the poor little people who have gotten themselves destroyed by these student loans, and it is horrible. And out of the other side of their mouth, they keep making the stupid loans. Congress. Hello. If you have screwed up the culture with these loans, stop making them. Hello. What other time in history could an 18 year old go down to the bank and convince a banker to loan him $145,000 to go play beer pong. What other time in history could this happen? Every time another in history, a banker would have looked at you and said, you dad gum, fool.

Son, there's a great comedian.

He said, it's basically a small business loan, and I'm the business. You shouldn't loan me money. It just doesn't make any sense.

It's the dumbest program ever. But it was all predicated on the idea that education solves everything. And education doesn't solve stupidity. Turns out it exasperates it. So, especially when you add with education, the idea, I need to go to a famous school. I need to go to a school that's well known. So now I'm really going to go deeply in debt and get a degree in left handed puppetry so I can and owe $260,000 and be a barista. This is what this crap has created. And you and I, boys and girls, the taxpayers are paying for that. Christian, I'm so sorry you're in the middle of this mess. I'm sorry you just got me riled up. But I just hurt for you folks. It hurts, and it just. It angers you when you look at $1.7 trillion of this stupidity floating around. And christian and his father in law are now at odds. Think about that.

Oh, yeah.

Thanksgiving dinner does.

They're not gonna be able to go to the holidays.

Thanksgiving dinner tastes different.

And when he buys a car, his father in law is gonna say, he's gonna look stink. I bought a car. But you didn't.

You take you and took care of the loan I took out.

What kind of man are you? Kind of a terror.

Do you come in? What do you mean? It's like. And then you're gonna say, well, you ain't gonna see your grandkids. You know, this is where this is going. I mean, this. It doesn't go well. This doesn't end. This story is not a pretty story. And bless his heart, he's writing on behalf of his wife. It's her parents.

And let's say, christian, we talked about this earlier. Let's say your wife did shook. She shook her parents and said, mom, I just have to go to this college so bad. And all they'll let me take out is 100 grand. If y'all take out the other 60, I'll pay back when I get a job. Then you and your wife need to sit down and map out a plan. To pay this, and it's gonna cost you your quote, unquote, following your passion. It's going to cost you your right now dream. Y'all got to go get a whole bunch of jobs, and you're going to have to probably get roommates. You're going to have to live a different kind of life than you thought because you all set this stuff up years ago. And unfortunately, the world let y'all do this before the world let you buy alcohol, they let you borrow $150,000 before the world let you get tattooed by a firearm or get a tattoo or buy cigarettes. But, man, you can sign this paper right here. And unfortunately, that's the world you're in. Math doesn't care how you feel. You all got to figure out a way to get this thing paid off and just scratch and claw and get it done.

Your relationship with your in laws and tension in your family tree is not worth it. It's just not.

Yeah, it's not. If she said she would pay it, if she didn't say she would pay it, then you've got a difficult, different kind of difficult conversation, which is mom and dad. She didn't make you a promise to pay this. We're in no more of a position to pay it than you are. I'm really sorry. We can't take this on. We love you, but we can't take this on.

And maybe in five years, if you are getting, like, having some success, maybe you can start chipping in or something, but right now, you can't do it. You can't.

But not as an obligation. That's an act of charity.

It's an act of gift. Yeah, it's a gift.

It's a gift. It's not an obligation. There's a different thing here. And so. But this all gets twisted up. So, parents, stop it. Stop it. Look at your 18 year old, you wuss, and say, no. Parents who are wusses are causing this. Look at.

Grow up.

Backbone run down on. Run down to Walmart. You can buy one on all three. Get you a backbone. And look at your little 17 year old and say, no. No. It's a powerful word. It'll set the next decade free. This is the Ramsey show, live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Our phone number is 888-825-5225 Doctor John Deloney Ramsay personality host of the Doctor John Deloney show, author of a couple of number one bestsellers. The latest is building a non anxious life. He's my co host today. Open phones, triple 8825-5225 Josh is in Huntsville. Hey, Josh, how are you?

I'm doing great, Dave. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

I knew you were going to say that. John, how are you?

I'm even better than that.

Well, thank you so much for taking my call. I really appreciate and love what you guys are doing to educate the population on so many levels. So thank you so much for that.

Thank you. How can we help?

I'm kind of at a crossroads. I'm 27 and I no longer have to work. It's not exactly what you think, but I'm at a crossroads. Do I go back to school for free and get paid to do it? Do I enjoy this type of retirement or do I just get a passive job? I mean, where do I go with all this?

That's a little bit vague. It sounds like you're out of the military.

Yes, sir. I served in the US army and life didn't go as expected. And I rent, got a lot of injuries. So that passive income I talked about, that's what I comes from.

So you got vet, and so you were 100% disabled?

Sure. Yeah, we'll say that.

Okay, so what's your income? Off the military?

So it's non taxable. It's 4400 per month.

Okay, cool. Are you single?

No, I'm lucky. I'm married.

Okay, good. What does she make?

Her gross income is about 36,000.

Okay, so go ahead, Dave.

At $86,000 a year, you don't have to work anymore? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, pretty much.

Okay. All right. What are the natures, by the way? Thank you for your service, and I'm sorry you were injured in the course. In the course of serving your country. We appreciate men.

I do it again.

We appreciate men and women like you. What's the nature of your disability, Josh?

It's a long list. I got, like, over a thousand pages of documentation, but it's both physical, some mental, total hip replacement. I'm only 27. Bad knees. My back is all tore up. So when it comes to employment, it's a desk job. And I was a loan officer for a long time.

How's your. How's your emotional state?

That's ongoing. It takes a lot of work to overcome some of the things you've experienced and seen in life. I bet I'm better than I used to be.

I bet. Well, good for you.

You still working on it.

I work on it every day, probably for the rest of my life.

Outstanding. I like that attitude.

Good for you.

Okay, well, I think you're asking the wrong question, man. Man, can I challenge you to ask a fourth question?

I love questions. Go for it.

What do you want to do for the next 60 or 70 years of your life?

You know, that's the darn this thing. People talk about retirement, and they wait for retirement to enjoy their lives. Sitting around the house, I think cracked up. You know, as cracked up as everyone says.

No, it's terrible.

It's terrible.

Man is designed. Woman is designed to do things. Couch potato is not a natural state. Yeah, it's not a natural state. So, yeah, John's onto something here. So I think you start asking yourself, okay, chapter one was Josh was in the military, saw some stuff, and got the hellbeat out of him in the process. Chapter two is Josh takes the income and the free education from that chapter one experience and goes and becomes a hero in another area. So let's watch chapter two. That's what. That's the question. It's an encore. You mean, you know, like when they. When the band does a really good job and the audience is standing and cheering, so the band comes back out and the curtain comes back up after they've already played a great concert. That's the encore, right? Yeah, that's you, dude. What's your encore?

Can I tell you? My dream for you is when you turn 50 and you and your wife are celebrating your 25th anniversary, that one of the lesser impressive things about you is your military service. That's my challenge to you.

Yeah. That you went and changed everybody's life doing something else, or you went and built this thing doing something else. Or you went and did. And you. You're known inside your own head and inside your group of friends and people who see you from the outside looking in, you're known as something other than what you're known for today. You're a hero already. You've already got that check mark. Well done. But now there's a whole nother thing. What's the encore?

So you've thought about it. What do you want to do?

What do you want to do? You've thought about it.

I don't know how I can top my military. Say, oh, you know, I like business.

Easy.

Okay, you like business.

Billion dollar company.

Yeah, I was a millionaire by the time I was 26. But all the property that I own just about was lower income property. That's a nice way of saying I was a slum lord. That was my first chapter. I was a millionaire, but I'm 26. That's pretty cool. How can I top that? Yeah, how can I top that? Well, I did many times over. A lot more rewarding being a slumlord, I'll just tell you that. So not like you were a slumlord. I'm not saying you that. That's not you, Josh. But I am saying that, you know, how can you top being a millionaire by the time you're 26? It's tough. You can do it.

And the beautiful thing for you is you got a check coming in every month, and so it doesn't.

And they'll pay for you to study to be whatever this next thing is.

That's right. You can go get a. You can go get a degree. Accounting, go get a degree in banking. You can go be an engineer, architect. All those are sit down jobs. And all of those in some shape, form or fashion can become work at when you want to work or how you want to work. And that's just. I just for. I just read off top of my head, you can be any number of things.

Yeah. So here's what we're going to do. We have a guy in the Ramsey suite named Ken Coleman that studies careers and studies people finding meaning in their work and teaches people how to do those things. He's got a couple of bestsellers, and he's got a career assessment tool. And I'm going to give it to you for free to say thank you for serving your country. And I'm going to give you the book that goes with it. And I'm also going to send you his book from paycheck to purpose, which is what we've been preaching at you for the last few minutes, because we think you're impressive.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Is that cool? Brother.

Life comes very fast.

Tell me why you're choked up.

You mentioned finding a new purpose, copying my military career, something I struggled with a lot. You know, you lose friends before they're even 21, and you're like, what do I do with my life if I don't do something great? If I don't find happiness or purpose? I feel like I'm just wasting it compared to my friends.

Here's what you get to do. You get to get up and tip the barista and have a hot cup of delicious coffee. And they don't get to do that. You get to go for a walk. It's gonna be slow because your hips and knees, but you get to go for a walk. You get to see a sunset. You get to live life in the, in see beauty. And that's where you start. And I do think, I mean, I'm with you. I think you, I think you have an obligation. You got to live a life and a half now because those guys didn't get to. I think you're right. But it doesn't mean you have to go make a bajillion dollars or else you've, you've wasted it. It's not true. Every breath you take is a breath they don't get to take. So keep going, man.

Yeah. The challenge, the definition of success here is intentionality.

That's right.

Be intentional. And we're gonna give you some tools and help you do that. You call us back anytime you want, son. We love you. We appreciate you. Hold on. Christian's gonna pick up and take care of, are you planning to sail with us on the live like no one else cruise? Then you better book your cabin before they're sold out. If you're on, baby step four and above, come aboard March 22, 29th of 2025, as we set sail for Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, San Juan and the Bahamas. Join me, the Ramsey personalities and a ton of special guests for the ultimate debt free celebration. Book your cabin because they are going fast. Head to ramsaysolutions.com cruise today. Doctor John Deloney, Ramsey personality, is my co host today. Thank you for joining us, America. Selling a house the Ramsey way makes homeownership a blessing instead of a curse. When you buy a home the wrong way, it makes you broker. That's why they call them brokers. So, I mean, you need to buy a house in a way that causes you to. You've never heard that, John?

No. God, that's the oldest old man joke I've heard.

The best dad joke ever. I've been using that for 30 years, man.

That's why they call them brokers. That's fantastic.

Yeah, seriously. I mean, when you brought, when broke, people buy a house, it makes them broker. That's what happens. It's a problem. We see it all the time. And so getting yourself straightened around and then getting with a good real estate agent that knows what they're doing to help you, you find the right house and help you sell your home if you're trying to do that, and in a weird market like this, this market's weird. Interest rates are up, people are buying houses and prices are going up. It's weird. And so it's not like the market went down it didn't. We told you it wasn't going to, by the way. So if you want to find the top agent in your area that we have vetted and that we trust to be this. And I've had my real estate license since 1978, and I trained the team that does the vetting here because I don't want to put my name Ramsey trusted on these agents unless they actually know what the flip they're doing. And here's an idea. If you're a real estate agent, you ought to sell a house occasionally. Like, you know, your uncle who just got his dad gum license and he thinks she ought to list your largest asset.

I don't think so. I think you ought to have like somebody that sold like 60 houses or a hundred houses last year, 200 houses knows what they're doing, right? So Ramsey trusted agents are high octane, high protein. They've been vetted by us. We trust them. That's why we send them to our friends. You, Ramsey, trusted real estate agents, you can find one for free at ramsey solutions.com agent. They're our endorsed local providers for your local city, your local neighborhood. Olivia is with us in Houston. Hi, Olivia. How are you?

I'm doing good. How are you guys?

Better than we deserve. What's up?

Okay, so kind of a lot of my going on with my situation right now, but I might possibly be becoming a kidney donor for a family member. And I guess I just need to know, like, does this put me in storm mode or how do I best prepare for this situation?

Wow. Impressive act of generosity. Yeah.

Tell us about the story. What's going on?

So my aunt's been dealing with the kidney disease for a few years now, and one of her kidneys is completely non functioning anymore. And the other one is about 1112 percent functionality. So she's on the donor list and none of, like, her daughter is not a blood type match and her husband and her sister are, but because of other health conditions, are not candidates. And I don't know, it's just been on my heart and to try to find out, are you, are you a match?

Oh, you don't even know if you're a match.

I'm a. So I just found out I am a blood match, but I still need to undergo all the other testing because it's pretty thorough testing. You know, they want to make sure you don't have any other pre existing conditions or mostly they want to make sure your blood pressure is good and that you're not diabetic. But there is like further testing. I'm just waiting on them to call me back to get that set up. But I know that once I undergo that testing, things are going to move pretty fast because of the percentage that she's at. So I'm just kind of wanting to make sure I have all my ducks.

So assuming, assuming the testing comes through, have you made the decision 100% to do this?

I have. And you know that I, I just want to be able to make sure that I can get all my questions answered with the doctors. But I've pretty much made the decision that, yes, I want to move forward with this. You know, assuming everything is good to go.

Well, the second question then I would learn about if I'm you, is what's the downtime associated with this and.

Okay, go ahead. I was just going to say it's a six week recovery and I've been doing kind of my reading and my research on it so far. And this is one of the things I'd have to ask the team, the medical team, but I know it's a six week recovery. Recovery. I don't know if I need to fully take that full time off of work just because I sit down all day. But, you know, I also don't know how that's going to go with my recovery. So I'm. I'm expecting it to be the full six weeks for sure.

Yeah. Okay.

Is your aunt and uncle in a position to help out with some of your bills while you're, while you're pulled off?

I'm not sure.

Well, that would mean no.

Well, I'm not sure because I know that for sure. As far as the actual procedure goes, her insurance pays for everything. I don't. Come.

We're talking about your lost income.

Yeah.

Do they have money to give you?

So I'm. I am married and my husband, you know, has his income. So I think with his income alone we're good. I mean, his income essentially pays for all the bills. What is his income on the low end? It's like 45 right now, but it can be a little over 6000 a month.

You've said the words I think, I think, I think several times. Here's what is going to be important for you. I want you to know, I want you and your husband to do a budget that's realistic.

I'm sorry.

I have it.

It's just, it's on my phone and.

No, I know, I know, I know. I just want you to be able to rest. This is a big decision you're making and it's one that's very noble and it's incredible. I mean, it's incredible and generous, but you're going into this. Well, you kind of, you know, like, you and your uncle and your aunt need to sit around a table and you all need to look at each other in the eye and say, I'm about to do this thing. And not just have a doctor communicate between you or whatever, like, you'll need to sit down and be adults and sit down and have this hard conversation. I'm about to make this sacrifice for you and I'm grateful and I want you to be okay. And if there's going to be a budget shortfall in your house, it's not contingent, but if you need that and you think they can help out and they just don't even know, then I don't have any moral problem with saying this is going to cost us this much for me to do this and my rent is this. See what I'm saying?

Yes.

But I just want you to have those numbers. I want you to be firm on those numbers and not think like, I think we're going to be okay. And I think they don't have it. And I think that there's a lot of. I thinks, and I want you just to be concrete going into this thing because there's going to be a lot of variables regardless of what happens. And so I want you to shore up all the variables that are just hanging out there.

And the answer to your question is yes. I would push pause on your total money makeover, baby steps and pile up cash starting today, until you know what's going to happen here. And as soon as you know what's going to happen, if you're going to. If you are going to be a donor and you do have a six week downtime, then you know, when you come back from that, you push play again.

Okay?

Yeah. Much. Because you're going into a storm. The good news is you've had a good forecast and so you can detail out the forecast and know exactly what the storm is going to look like or as close to exact as we can possibly do with a medical procedure. But we know, okay, we're gonna have four weeks of discomfort in two weeks at work. That is uncomfortable of my. So that's my six week recovery, or it's three and three, or it's six, period. Don't go back to work. Or it's. I don't know. You need to get that nailed down and then you get. Need to get nailed down. What your budget looks like. And then you pile and you stack cash because you have a. A very defined storm that you're walking into of your own choosing. And then when you come out the other side of it, you just take that cash and push play and start, you know, start back on your. Get out of debt or wherever. Baby step. You're on mode. Get back and moving again on that. And that's exactly how you do it. So you're an incredible young lady. That's pretty cool.

I've known a handful of folks that did this, and I think the most unusual one I met was a pastor. I was speaking at his church, and he, in his prayer time, had a name pop into his head, and he ended up meeting the guy and donated his kidney to a perfect stranger.

Wow.

This name popped into his head and it was about two years later, but it was. He journaled it all out. He had it all written down and. And he was just nonplussed about it. He was just a matter of fact, it's like, well, that's what you do. Wow. It's like. Yeah, yeah. It's not. Yeah, yeah. It's. It's.

Why try to give James to, like, give us high fives?

He won't even give us that, much less kidney.

Not a kidney.

Yeah. This is the Ramsey ship.

That's awful. Hey, it's doctor John Deloney. Look, when you're stressed about money, it makes everything feel out of control. You run around like a maniac trying to make sure everything's covered, everybody's okay. I've been there. It's the worst. But you can flip the script with an every dollar budget. It helps you track spending and expenses in real time, so you always know what's happening with your money. Talk about a weight lifted off your shoulder. Start feeling in control of your money again. Download the everydollar app today for free.

Thanks for joining us, America. Doctor John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, is my co host. You're welcome to drop by and visit with us in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. Watch this show happen. We do it on the glass every Monday through Friday from one to four. It's free and it's worth every dollar you pay. So come by and hang out and the coffee's free. The homemade cookies smells like Mama's kitchen when you walk in here, the girls over at Baker Street Cafe do a great job and we'd love to have you join us. In the middle of that lobby is the debt free stage, and JC is on the debt free stage. Hi, JC. How are you good?

How are you?

Better than I deserve. Where do you live?

Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

Ah, very cool. And how much debt have you paid off?

$138,494.

Good for you. How long did that take?

Took just about four years.

Good for you. And your range of income during that time?

So we started at $113,000, up to about 140, and then down to 65.

Okay, cool. And what kind of debt was the 138?

So some few credit cards, a family car loan, and the majority, about 125,000, was student loan debt.

Whoa. Okay. All right, cool. Very cool. So what happened four years plus ago that made you decide to get after it?

So we had heard. We had heard of Dave Ramsey several years prior, and then about December of 2019, we had started attending a new church in Allentown, Pennsylvania, and they were offering fpu.

Oh, very cool.

I had mentioned it to my parents. They were like, we're gonna pay for that for Christmas. It's your Christmas gift.

All right. Way to go, mom and dad. I like you.

So we. We started the class in person, January 2020. A few months later, we didn't get to finish in person the last few classes because of COVID Yeah.

What church was this?

Faith church in Allentown.

Very nice. Good. Okay, and so you went through the class but finished. Finished online. Yep.

Finished online. You know, at first, my husband was a little hesitant to begin the class. He wasn't quite sure most of the debt was his that he brought into the marriage. And then after. Pretty much after the first class, he was, like, on board, and he was telling everyone about it. You know, we started just hustling during COVID you know, a lot of. Fortunately, we were able to kind of make some extra money, you know, with side hustles and just working as much as we could. Fortunately, our jobs, you know, allowed us to continue what is down the path. So I am a clinical dental hygienist and a dental hygiene educator, so I work at the local community college.

Ah, okay. All right, cool. So that allowed you to work extra?

Yes. Yep. And neither of us, fortunately, were, you know, had a loss of income during that time.

And you just plowed right through it.

Yep.

Okay, so tell us the rest of.

The story so you can do it. So in. So I'll just. So, during our journey, we were able to. My husband, he. I owe it to him. You know, he did most of the side hustle work, really. He built furniture out of old skis, which is probably his favorite side hustle. He worked at a ski resort on the weekends, teaching snowboarding lessons, you know, and then that's a good side hustle. Yeah, it was a good side hustle. And we got to lead a few FPU courses along the way. And then this past January, on my birthday, he. We were on our way home from dinner, and we were. He was in a car accident and didn't make it.

Sorry.

So, how long had you all been married? Six years.

Wow. What was his name?

Andrew.

Wow. So this is his debt free school.

It says for sure. Yeah. He's supposed to be here.

For sure. He is.

He's here.

Yeah.

Easier.

He is supposed to be. It's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. Wow. Wow. So, uh, how proud do you think he is right now that you're doing this?

Very.

Yeah. It's pretty hard. Girl, I'm surprised you did this.

I had to.

Yeah. You really didn't have a choice, did you? Yeah. Yeah. It's burn. It was burning inside of you. I understand.

Is there a funny story he would tell about y'all's adventures?

I don't know.

What was the biggest fight you all had about money while you were doing all this stuff?

Oh, it was probably him wanting to go do something that we shouldn't. Going out to dinner.

So he's the free spirit.

Oh. Oh, yes.

Big time. And you were the nerd.

Yes. Yes.

I mean, he was making lawn furniture out of skis.

Yeah.

But they were pretty cool of them. They're amazing, man.

Yeah. Those are neat. Those are neat. Adirondack chairs out of old snow skis. Yeah. Incredible.

And y'all have any little ones?

We do. We have a little girl, Matilda. She'll be two in July. Yeah.

He's a pretty amazing dad.

Oh, the best.

Yeah. Wow. Oh, and here's Matilda. Okay, cool. So, who is this that came with you? Your mom and dad or his mom?

My mom and dad.

Okay.

And then the friends that went through our FPU class.

No, you were teaching the FPU class they went through and got debt free. I met them at the break.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Wow. Very, very cool. So, after all of this tragedy and heartbreak, was the whole debt free journey worth it in the middle of all of that?

Oh, absolutely.

Thank God you don't have debt.

God. Thank God. Yeah. I mean, we were so. We were really. We were within, like, $15,000 of finishing when the accident happened. Thankfully, you know, with following the baby steps, we had our defense. So, you know, we were. It did bring a lot of peace knowing that, you know, we didn't really have to worry about the finances.

So you had a good life insurance policy. Place in place. Yeah.

Thanks to Xander.

Yeah. Wow. Way to go.

Yeah.

Thanks to Andrew Zander. Xander sold it to him, but thanks to Andrew. Way to go, Andrew.

Hey, I've also.

That's a good thing.

Dad told widows and husbands, give your wife the gift of being able to take a few months and just be real sad. Right? And you're able to just look at that beautiful girl, man. Look at that beautiful girl. But you had the opportunity to just be sad, right. And just grieve and be with your friends and family and community during that, like, shape shift and moment in your life.

Wow.

What a blessing amidst an awful storm, man.

Well, I'm proud of him, and I'm proud of you for having the courage to get on here and do this in his honor. Way to go.

She's going to watch videos of this when she's older, and this is how legacies get changed.

She's definitely an FPU baby.

Yeah. Between teaching the class and going through the class, somewhere in there, we had a baby. I'm just saying. Okay, that's funny. Oh, very, very good. Well, JC, we're proud of you. We love you. Thank you for having the courage to tell the story and to honor him in the process. We honor him as well. And fabulously, fabulously done.

Well, a big shout out to Andrew.

Amen.

The legacy he left.

All right. It's JC and Andrew from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 138,000 paid off in four years, making $1,000.13 to 140 to 65. Count it down. Let's hear a debt free scream.

Three, two, one. We're debt free.

Yeah. Wow. Wow. I'm not crying. You're crying.

Nope. I'm not crying. You're crying.

I think my allergies just acted up. Oh, my gosh. Wow. That's powerful.

That's courage and bravery right there, Dave.

Well, it is. And it just illustrates that we don't know what we don't know. And so stuff as ridiculous as life insurance, it's hard subject to talk about stuff as ridiculous as having a will, stuff as ridiculous as getting out of debt. Set your family on a solid foundation, because you just don't freaking know.

And when people. Dave, come after us about, why would I pay off my mortgage when the interest rate's so low? I don't want to pay off my student loans. I want to put it in the market and do this right there. This is why.

Right there.

Right here.

Right there. That little beautiful baby girl.

And we're looking at a mom and a wife that gets to breathe amidst all that pain because they decided as a couple several years ago, no more.

Yeah, it's powerful. Good job. Way to go, JC. You're a hero. Absolute hero. Andrew. This is the Ramsay show, our scripture of the day, proverbs, 1423. In all toil there is profit, but mere talk tends only to poverty. Nelson Mandela said, money won't create success. The free them to make it will. Ooh, yes. That would be true. That would be true. Natalie is with us, and Natalie is in Columbus, Ohio. Hi, Natalie. Welcome to the Ramsey show.

Hi, Dave. Hi, John. Thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

I am a 21 year old nurse. I am a Ramsay follower. On baby step two, I've paid off 90,000 in student loans, $10,000 left. I am looking advice on my situation. I'm dating somebody with a large net worth. He had a large net worth, only began dating, but his dad passed in June of 2023 and inherited a large estate. We are talking about our future plans, and I'm so incredibly grateful to be in this situation. It's his parents legacy. But I'm feeling a large amount of guilt for the amount of number, the amount of money that we have access to at our age and the budget that we are talking about for our home and land. I also feel that I'm not contributing anything to the situation. So just looking for some advice I can go over.

Well, you're not contributing money on a percentage basis to the situation. That's a fact. But you are contributing to the situation. You're 50% of the relationship. So there's a, you know, if you only measure the quality of a relationship based on the financial contribution, then we don't have a real relationship. So this is the financials, just part of the contribution. My wife has not had a wor, has not worked outside the home in 38 years. Do you think she hasn't contributed? Do you think she feels guilty? No. It would be the answer to both, by the way. Not even close. She reminds me when she contributes.

Natalie, this. This Natalie, this story has plagued you your whole life. Who told you you're not enough?

No one. I think that I just didn't grow up with a lot of money. And I just kind of pictured my whole life blue collar.

That's right.

And I. This incredible situation.

The money. The money freaks you out. The money freaks you out because when.

You were growing up, money was for other people, not for. Not for you. Right?

Yes.

And it scares you to death.

So here's the thing, okay? The word guilty is a dangerous word in this, okay? I feel guilty. You should feel guilty when you have money only if you stole it, if you earned it. You should not feel guilty if your boyfriend's mom and dad did a great job and left it to their son, who they loved dearly. He should not feel guilt. He didn't do anything wrong. And you should not feel guilt for marrying a man whose mom and dad left him a bunch of money and also who had a net worth before that. What is the total dollars we're talking about here?

So after taxes and splitting it 50 50 with his brother, it's going to be about 4.5 million.

And then how much did he have already?

He. When we began dating, it was between 1,000,002. He makes 135 a year, and I make 70.

Okay. And so he's gonna be at about 7 million when y'all get married. How old is he?

He's 32 and I'm 29.

Okay. All right. Excellent. Okay. I don't know how. I don't know how to tell you to be okay with this because it. You know, first thing you do is you say, when my daughters were teenagers, they had this silly thing. They said, awkward turtle. Like a turtle on its back, it's awkward. Can't roll over, can't move. Is just flailing about, you know, I'm saying. And so if they were having an awkward conversation, they would say, just say, awkward turtle. They would just say out loud, this is awkward. And first thing we can do is just say out loud, this is awkward. It's. It's normal for you to feel some weirdness because this is weird. It's not a normal path. Agreed.

Agreed.

So if we just say out loud, this is weird. I don't. I've never done this before. I've never dated a guy with $7 million before. I never dreamed I would date a guy. In all of my thinking about dating people, I never came up with a dating scenario in my mind. That was $7 million, and here I am. So this is awkward and weird.

Even better. When you got your job making 70, you thought you were rich, didn't you?

Totally.

Yes. You'd won. You'd won.

I was. I was. Yeah.

And he makes twice that, so he's twice rich.

And your boyfriend was like, hold my beer. Here's $7 million. Right. Okay. What kind of house are you going to build?

We're thinking about one to 1.3.

That's perfectly reasonable. Out of seven.

Easy peasy 30,000 on a wedding.

Perfectly reasonable. Out of 7 million.

Just pay cash for the wedding and be smart about that.

Is there any crazy in his family or crazy in your family that's rolling their eyes at you two?

They know about our situation, not about specific numbers.

No. I said crazy.

I would say, yeah.

Is there crazy people in one of your family that are gonna roll their eyes at this whole thing?

Possibly.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. And that's running through your head, too.

Yeah. I don't want them to.

Yeah. In hillbilly land where I grew up.

In their face.

Yeah. I grew. I don't care. You didn't rub anything in their face.

They can choose to pick it up and rub it on their own face, but you're not. I could tell on the phone that you're a kind, generous person. You're a nurse for a living. You serve others for a living. You're not going to rub this in anybody's face, but.

But jealous people and envy people in the noble hillbilly culture I grew up in, they would say things like, you're getting above your raisin. And I'm like, a raisin?

You're forgetting your roots.

Raisin? What's a raisin got to do with this? Oh, my raisin. Oh, my raising. Oh, now I got it. Okay. But, yeah, it's that same kind of stuff. Right? It's envy and jealousy and that kind of stuff. And it floats around in most families, certainly in most communities. And so, you know, you feel that. And so the tough thing is, is that you're gonna have to. You're not gonna have some money problems that other people have, but you're gonna have some different problems.

Yes. And I think that's part of it. I feel like, the weight of the responsibility.

Good. That's wisdom. But that's.

Natalie, you've. Tell me I'm wrong. You've been. It's been your job to make sure everybody was okay your whole life.

Yes. And what's my job?

Okay. And now you're just got 7 million. You're gonna be living a $1.2 million house. You're gonna be married in the day you get married. You're gonna be a multimillionaire. And it's not your job to manage how other people in your family choose to use that and weaponize it against you, because you can't. It's not a thing you can even control. You gotta let it go. What you can do is to continue to be a person of character like you already are. And you and your husband, go build and make an amazing life and be able to be this generous to your kids and grandkids when the time comes.

Do good. Yeah, just do good.

But stop managing the other adults in your life.

You can't be good and do good.

Absolutely. Follow up question to this.

Quick.

I actually.

Quick.

Yeah, go for it.

I told him to hold off from an engagement until I pay off my debt. Do you think that that's reasonable?

No. No. It's ridiculous now has nothing to do with the conversation. You're trying to earn your way into this.

Yeah, you try.

Stop earning your way into this.

Perfect.

We're not. You're not. I'm not a contributor. Yes, you are.

Yes, you are.

He loves your freaking Natalie. That says contributor right there. Okay, there's. You're not gonna make 7 million between now and the wedding. This ain't gonna even up.

In fact, I want, for the spiritual exercise, I want you to not do that, because I want you to feel that discomfort. He's marrying you despite your financial, the terrible financial situation.

Awful person, you. Yeah, he lifted you up. Oh, my gosh.

Come on.

Grand.

You paid off a jillion dollars. You're amazing.

You're amazing.

Thank you.

He picked you for a reason. Okay.

Yes, yes, I know there's not.

But there's nothing in here that's gold digging. This is the opposite end of gold digging on the spectrum. You don't even know what that is probably, but, yeah, the. A lady who is trying to marry someone for their money is a gold digger. Okay, you're the opposite end of this. It's like you're almost not doing this because of the money.

Yeah, you're generous, you're kind, and continue to love.

Well, listen, it's you and him. Look at each other and. And anybody that doesn't like it. Oh, well. Next. There you go. Trolls live under bridges. Keep that in mind. That puts this hour, the Ramsay show, in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace. Christ Jesus.

Hey, guys, I'm Rachel.

And I'm George.

And you've probably heard our voices before on the Ramsay show.

And do we have a surprise for you.

Yep, we have our very own show, smart money happy hour, where we talk about pop culture, current events, and, of course, money. George. It's a great show. And what else do we talk about?

So much, Rachel. Not enough. And yet too much. We talk about guilt tipping, because tipping is out of control and I won't stand for it anymore, which is why I'm sitting.

I'm glad you're taking such a stand.

And we also talk about something else I'm passionate about. Disney adults.

Oh, George, why is it a thing? Listen.

Some adults still find the magic.

Sure.

We also talk about toxic money traits and girl math. And if you don't know what those are, you have to listen to the podcast.

Yeah, there's a lot there.

You guys.

It's pretty fun.

We keep you relevant is what I'm trying to say.

We help you out.

So pull up a chair to the happy hour you wish your friends were having. We promise you won't regret it. And if you don't have friends, we'll be your friends.

We will. We're great friends. So make sure to check it out on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or the Ramsey Network app.