What's going on?

This is john and my good friend george camel. And this is the ramsey show, live from nashville, Tennessee, where we talk to people about their money, their relationships, their mental and emotional health, their work, just about any and everything. We're taking your calls live. 8235-5225 triple 8825-5225 and we're gonna go out to reading, pennsylvania, and talk to anton to get this show going this afternoon. What's up, anton? How we doing?

Good.

How are you guys standing?

Is it anton?

Yes.

Sorry, anton.

Just want to respect the name.

That's all. Good. Can you guys hear me okay?

Yeah, we got you. What's going on?

Awesome. So I wanted a little advice on the situation I got going on. I run my own business, and it's been going really well. But two weeks ago, I had a seizure, which my heart stopped beating for a little bit, and I stopped breathing. And when I came to and I'm healthy, it kind of made me reevaluate every decision I've made, every decision I'm making, and the best thing to do to leave my wife in a good situation in case anything happens.

Wow.

Have they. They worked through what happened? Have they been able to give you some clarity on to what your body's doing?

Yeah. So I pretty much had a severe panic attack that was brought on by some previous trauma, and my body pretty much just decided to shut down. And they said, hey, that's it. You're gonna have a seizure now.

And we're out. What's the. What's the trauma that your body was replaying?

Um, it's some prior PTSD from some family stuff that happened with my brother. Fortunately, he's doing great now. But it's just things that I, you know, have to live with.

Okay. Did this happen out of the blue, or was there family stuff going on that. That started a domino effect, that kicked this. That ended with this collapse?

You know, surprisingly, it was a scene in a movie, and the scene was pretty much exactly what I lived. My brain told myself, this could be a problem. You can handle it. And sure enough, I couldn't handle it.

Gotcha. So what's been the follow up?

So, I mean, I'm healthy now, which is good. My brain's a little rattled. And, you know, I have a business where I build custom fish ponds and I breed high end koi fish. And the business is great. Things are doing good. But, you know, after that, I was like, oh, man, you know, my time on here could be, you know, limited at any moment. Provedly like, if it's time to go, it's time to go. So I was thinking about, you know, what do I do with my business if I were to go and my wife can't do what I do? I have money and investments and things like that, which she can have. But I'm trying to figure out if I maybe pivot to something that's more palatable for her to be able to run if something happens to me and I sell my business or if I just keep going and pack money away and get ourselves in a better situation.

Can I challenge you a bit, Antonio?

Absolutely.

Anytime. We have a moment where we feel like we're betrayed by our own body, when it lets us down, whether it's an anxiety response or a panic attack response or a heart attack or a stroke or a aneurysm, there's that. The foundation of our life gets shaken. Right. It feels like the sidewalk we were walking on is suddenly cracked and it's not safe to walk on anymore because the one thing we could always count on was our bodies, right?

Yep.

And when family relationships are screwy, when neighborhoods, when, when finances, when politicians, what, I can count on me. And then your body said, and we're out. Right?

Yep. Yep.

So times of reflection after that are really, really important because you're right.

Yeah.

You have to peer over the edge and be like, oh, man, our life is fragile and it's quick and it's short. And you can also take reflection a little bit too far. And you can respond to this type of kind of shaking of the snow globe with an entirely anxious response, which is what you're doing, because here's what you're doing. You're now starting to plan for problems in the future that aren't real.

Oh, yeah. The fight or flight is telling me to flight.

Right. And so you are trying to flee from your present reality. And so what you're going to do is you're trying to live into the future, into a. Create a job in the present that one day your wife will carry on without you because you're going to die young. And then you want to make sure she, dude, you're now you're inventing stories to try to solve in the present as a way to not deal with. You've been through a lot, haven't you?

Yeah. I grew up with nothing. Abusive household, you know, dug ourselves out and, like, things were finally going great. And then this happened and I just felt like that little kid again of being out of control. And it's scary.

Okay. But when you came to tell me about your marriage.

Oh, marriage is great. I mean, we've been through a lot.

Hold on. Don't. Don't qualify. Don't qualify it. You've been qualifying your whole life. Your marriage is good.

Okay. Fair enough.

Marriage is good. You love the woman you're married to?

Absolutely. 100%.

She loves you.

Absolutely.

Do you have little ones? No. What's the state of your finances?

Finances are good. We have been paying off debts. I only have about $10,000 left. And I took my house from 30 years the whole way down to only having four years left on it. So we are sitting pretty for our age.

How old are you?

I am 26.

Awesome.

Do you have life insurance in place?

I don't. It was something that I was in the middle of working on and the paperwork should be started soon. But I was listening to Ramsey a lot and kind of figuring out all that, and so we were looking at some options that kind of follow the Ramsey plan a little more.

Please do it today. As soon as you're off the phone, contact our friends at go to xander.com and get a term life quote. Ten to twelve times your annual income, 15 to 20 year term should be great for you, but that's going to give you the real peace of mind you're looking for of the, like, what if something happens to me? It's not going to be the business. It's how she going to pay the bills for the next 20 years.

Yeah.

And so that's something I would do today to give you a little bit more peace as you figure out what's next.

Yeah.

And if you're, if you're following the Ramsey plan, we'll tell everybody to get life insurance. You got to, you got to, you got to, um. You're going to have to go through some extra testing, probably that's just par for the course. Cool. Just head right into it. But here's what I want you to see. Your body immediately took you back to when you were twelve years old and getting beat up in your own home, right?

Yep.

And then when you came to, you came to in the present where you're a great husband and you're a hard worker and you've transformed your family's future financial situation.

Yep.

And one of the things our bodies does is it just replays those old stories until we can show it that we weren't safe then, but we're safe now.

Yeah.

And so you mentioned early in the call you, you're all good now. I'm gonna tell you, brother, you're not. But you're also in a remarkable position to now go get the healing that you need to do right. And my goal for you is not that you can undo what happened in your kid, because you can't. But you'll be able to think about it. You'll be able to watch a movie scene, and your body won't drag you back 20 years. Back to hell. It will remember. And you'll go. And your heart rate will go up a little bit, but you'll recognize you're surrounded by a woman who loves you, family who's with you now. You're safe financially, you got a team, you got a gang, and so on and so forth. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it makes sense. I just needed to talk through it, man.

No, you got it. I'm proud of you for saying it out loud. You want to quit your job? Quit your job. Don't quit your job. Because 20 years from now, you might drop dead and your wife's gonna not want to carry on a koi business, right? And my guess is you love what you do. I think you love raising fish. And you love doing all and creating ponds and all. That's amazing. That's awesome. Continue to build that business. Build that business so big that the pile of money you leave your wife, she won't have to work, and then she can sell it to some other young guy who's creating his life moving forward. But, man, you're on the right path. Your healing journey starts right now. This is the Ramsay show. This show is sponsored by Betterhelp. Hey, it's Deloney. And wow, 2024 is flying by. So let me ask you, what's something you're proud of so far this year? What's something you wish you could change direction on? It's important to take a moment to celebrate your wins, and it's also important to make adjustments for the rest of the year. When you need to change, therapy can help you take stock of your progress and set achievable goals for the next six months and beyond.

Therapy is a safe, effective place to learn how to say hard things out loud and make a realistic plan for moving into the future. Ive personally been blessed to have a great therapist who helps me get heavy things off my chest. And you can find a great therapist, too. If youre thinking of starting therapy, give Betterhelp a try. Its entirely online, convenient, flexible, and suited to fit your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra money. Take a moment and be intentional for the rest of 2024 with Betterhelp. Visit betterhelp.com deloney today to get 10% off your first month. Thats betterhelph.com deloney. Welcome back to the Ramsey show. I'm John Deloney, joined by George Campbell. 825-5225 that's 888-825-5225 selling a house the Ramsey Way makes home ownership something to celebrate, not something that ruins every part of your life. The Ramsey trusted program is the only way to find an agent that you can trust to keep you on track with what we teach here at Ramsey. And here's the deal. To get you the best offer on your house or find the right house for you, nothing is worse than having a real estate agent who's pressuring you to buy a house that you can't afford or is at the top, top, top end of your budget that's making you queasy.

But they gotta get the sale, and they wanna get their number. Ramsey trusted agents don't do that. They walk with you. They know what you're trying to accomplish. And they know that you wanna get a house and you wanna have peace inside that home. We send you the top agents in your area, folks that we trust, that we use in our homes, in our lives. You can review their stats. You can interview them. You can decide which one you want to work with. Ramsey trusted agents have years of experience and will help you make wise decisions when it comes to pricing, marketing, and making or choosing the right offer. Find a Ramsey trusted real estate agent for free. It doesn't cost you anything. Just go to ramsaysolutions.com slash agent. All right, let's go out to Charlotte, North Carolina, and talk to Matt. What's up, Matt? How we doing?

Good. How are you?

We're partying, brother. How can we help, man?

So I sort of have, like, one question. So I'm not, like, an avid watcher of the Ramsey show, but I see a lot of clips online where you guys talk about mutual funds and investing in mutual funds. I was wondering, why do you recommend mutual funds over index funds?

Great question, man. How old are you?

21.

Lovely. And are you investing right now?

Yeah, I've been investing since I was 15.

Oh, my goodness.

Dude, that's amazing. Who taught you that?

My dad taught me a little bit, and I read about it.

Nice.

What have you been investing in for the past six years?

So I was doing, like, mostly index funds, but I like to play around, do some stock picks, but obviously, not a lot of. Not a big portion of my portfolio goes towards that.

Okay. Are you working full time?

Yeah, I'm in marketing.

Nice. That's amazing. Okay, and how much are you investing as a percentage of your gross household income?

Probably, like 25, 30%.

Oh, my goodness. Okay, so you're going to be a multimillionaire, regardless of this conversation that happens next. Can we agree on that?

Yeah.

Where do you live, Matt?

Right outside of Charlotte.

No, no, no. Like, do you have your own play, your own house, your own apartment? You live with mom where you live in?

No, I still live with. With my mom at home.

Okay.

All right, cool. How much do you make a year?

Yeah, um, 80 to 90.

Oh, my goodness. Dude, you're crushing it. So you're. We're talking. You're investing, like, 18,000 a year?

Yeah.

And you've got a 401k through your employer?

No, I use a roth Ira.

Okay, so what happens after you max that out?

I just put in a regular brokerage.

Okay, great. So let's talk about index funds versus mutual funds. And for the. For the listener's sake, if they're like, what are these Goober nerds talking about? Index funds are basically passively managed mutual funds. So still a giant group of stocks, but it's tracking an index, basically a set list of companies, whereas the mutual funds that are actively managed has an investment manager that is selecting the funds that make the list can get.

Let's go. Even simpler for guys like me. When you say index, they're indexed and they're passively managed.

So index. There's no one running the show. It's just a set list.

I'm making these 500.

500 companies, the largest us companies.

And if they go up, then the index fund goes up, and if they just all go down, then the index fund kind of goes down. And over time, we hope these companies just keep getting bigger and growing. And then can companies fall off the s and P 500 new ones pop in?

Yes.

So the whole thing should be just going up over time.

Exactly.

And so index funds means nobody's driving. It's just following whatever.

This is the autonomous vehicle of the investing world. You like that.

You just ruined it.

I know. There we go.

Excellent. Okay.

Okay, Matt. Because, you know about this stuff isn't just as much as we do.

Yeah. I mean, one thing that's sort of, I'm so important to, like, note is that mutual funds sort of have built in fees. Right. You know what I mean?

Correct.

There's built in fees.

There's an investment manager, there's people to pay because this is their job, to run these. Exactly. So they do have fees. The perks of the index funds, as you know, diversification, which mutual funds have low expense ratios, which index funds have, and predictability. And, you know, every investing rose has a storm for. For starters, your index funds won't beat the market because it represents the market. Does that make sense? So you'll settle for the average of the market. You can never beat it. The goal of the mutual fund is that that investment manager is picking, is hand selecting funds based on tons and tons of research that they're doing every day, day in and day out in order to attempt to beat it. So let's say the market does 10%. Well, the goal of the mutual fund is to do 12% or 14%. Now, as we know, they won't hit that goal every year. We don't have a crystal ball. We can agree on that.

Do you look for specifics in a mutual fund to try to hit those funds? Because I know 80% of mutual funds don't beat the market.

No, that's actually factually incorrect. Morningstar did this article and they said nearly 57% of mutual funds, these active us equity funds, they beat the average index fund peer over the twelve months through June 2023. So that means six out of ten mutual funds beat the index.

Wait, over how long?

Over a twelve month period they looked at. Here's the mutual funds did. Here's the peer index funded. Six out of ten beat the index fund.

Right. But why are you looking at a twelve month period versus, like, you know, decades?

You can look at decades and it's going to change depending on the decade you look at. And the truth is there's going to be mutual funds that don't beat the index and there's going to be years. The index beats the mutual funds. And so the goal here is to slightly beat the copycat of the stock market, which is the index fund. And so the index funds also do have a fee. You'll see it listed as a twelve b, one fee. And so that kind of makes up for the fact the mutual fund fees there. So it's not exactly free. And here's the thing. We're not anti index funds. There's a time and place. In fact, Dave Ramsey invests in index funds outside of retirement. You have that taxable brokerage account. Right? Dave would say index funds are the smart play there because of the low turnover. They're not moving things around as much, which makes the fees less. But in retirement, you're not having to pay those fees because you're not worried about turnover because this is a long term play. And therefore, he invests in mutual funds for his retirement accounts, index funds outside of retirement.

So there's a time and place for both.

What do you look for in a mutual fund, though?

Well, there's a lot of pieces of it, including, you know, rate of return, the expense ratio, what the fund is made up of, who the fund manager is. Have they switched the investment team recently? You know, if it's been doing great for 30 years, and all of a sudden they switch the crew, well, that's something you want to look out for because things might change. And we actually covered this in depth, Matt, in our investing essentials livestream, and it's not currently available. But just for you, I'm going to send you a link to watch that for free. How's that sound?

Good. But isn't that sort of inevitable? I mean, if a mutual fund has a 30 year history with one manager, and I'm 21 and I want to invest for another 30 years, isn't there pretty much a guarantee that the fund manager is going to change the fund management team?

Sure, over time, things may change, but what you're looking for is that longer term track record. And so we're not going to choose a fund that's been around for a year. We prefer the one that has a track record of ten or 15 that's had the same team with the same record of success.

But, dude, that's like saying, I don't want to root for the Yankees or the Astros because they're going to have different players in a few years. The, the goal is you hope that they have guiding principles and they have the same desire to win and they have the same integrity over time. Some teams are better at integrity than others. With the teams I just, I just labeled, I know Kelly's looking at me. Not Kelly's upset, but you see, I'm saying, like, yeah, the fund managers are going to roll over, but it will change over time.

Matt, here's the deal. We can argue all day, and I can tell you like this, but you can be a multimillionaire just from your index funds. You don't have to ever touch a mutual fund if you don't want or going to still be friends. You're doing great. The key is your savings rate. That's the key. That's what's holding people back from having money. It's not the discussion of index versus mutual. That's for another time. But for everyone else listening, just freaking invest. Be like Matt at 21 years old. Invest 18 grand a year. You're going to have money in retirement regardless of where you put it.

And for what it's worth, George and I both put our money in mutual funds.

Call me a dummy.

And me, too. They. They do, George. They call us. We'll be right back.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey show. I'm John Deloney, joined by George Campbell, triple 8825-5225 Campbell? Not Campbell.

I heard Campbell. I gotta say, that's the most american name out there.

George Campbell. The b came out. I don't even know where they came from.

It happens to the best of us.

Or, hey, come on.

I call you John Baloney. Sometimes you do. It happens. That one's on purpose, though.

That's on purpose. Let's go to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and talk to Brittany. Hey, Brittany. What's going on?

Hi there. How are you?

Outstanding. How are you?

Good. I'm calling because my husband's employer, which is the federal government, is supposed to be relocating us.

Hold on. The way you said that was incredible. My husband's employer. Pause for disdain. The federal government. What if. What if? What is your husband's employer done this time?

Okay, so they are relocating his department from Harrisburg ta to Columbus, Ohio. So he is currently making $88,000 a year. Even though we are in south central Pennsylvania, the specific base he's on got, like, lumped in with the DC pay. So it's like this gem that everybody wants.

Low cost of living, where? Amazing salary.

Exactly. So now they're wanting us to move to Columbus, Ohio, where the pay is less and the cost of living is higher. So he's currently at $88,000 a year. They're saying his supervisor is leaving. And so in an effort to fill some voids because not everybody is moving, they are telling him that that would be perfect for him to move into that position. And so then if we were to move here and he were to start his supervisor's position, he would be making $91,000 a year. So it's not that big of a bump. Just because of the pay here is obviously not as good. So they're going to pay, like, relocation expenses, closing costs, and then they are also offering an incentive bonus of 25% of the salary, which is great. We have a month to decide. They're supposed to give us the official letter any day, like, any time between today and June 30.

Hey, Brittany?

Yes?

Do you want to live in Ohio?

I don't know.

That's the question here. Do you want to live in Ohio?

It's hard.

Do you have kids like, I.

We do. We have two teenagers, and they. I homeschool them.

Okay.

And we're all open to it.

Brittany, do you want to live in Ohio?

I don't know. It's the unknown that's scary.

I think you do know. You just don't want to say it out loud.

It sounds like you're trying to find a way on paper, to where you're going. This doesn't make sense. We shouldn't do it when it's really just. I don't want to do it. And both are okay. Have you talked to him about this and shared your honest feelings? Like, listen, yes, it doesn't make sense, but also, I don't really want to go to Ohio.

Well, here's the thing. We're on the same page. He's like. He's the one that said call. I'm like, we're in Ohio right now. He's here working for the week. And so we were on the way yesterday, and he said, just call, and let's just see what they're thinking. Because he has worked so hard to get to where he is. And I feel like, you know, every few years, it seems like it's another little step back. And so we got this job two years ago, and it's just tough. Like our house, we only owe about 100,000 on it, and we have such a low interest rate. And if we move here, we're going to be starting over on that.

Britney, Brittany, do you want to live in Ohio? Because if you don't, you owe it to yourself and you owe it to him to say that out loud. So that from a foundation of honesty and a foundation of cool, let's figure out what's next. Y'all can make an informed decision together, because y'all said, till death do us part, right?

Right.

And for better and for worse. And he's had an amazing run. And here's the deal. He's gonna have an amazing run, and y'all are an amazing team.

What happens if he says no and he stays put?

So if he says no, they. They will find him a position in the area. It might not be at that same base, so it could be at, you know, another one where the pay is, again, not going to be as good. And they have, I think it's up to a year. So he, you know, he might end up on unemployment. I don't want him to leave the federal government. This is his goal for years. We applied it so many times over and over. And so this.

Let's play out the other scenario then. What happens if you stay and your life becomes worse and you're resentful for those reasons? Oh, my gosh. He now makes 70,000, and this isn't fair. And is that a possibility? Or he's unemployed and now he's got to find a new job versus the. No.

There's so many elements.

I know, I know. That's. That's where I'm trying to cut through it. You got to let the money go. You all had a good run for two years. You got the golden goose for two years. That's gone now every. The life y'all had is now going to be over. And the cool thing is, is you get to pick which one is next. Is it. Is it new? A new one where he's a leader in Ohio, where it's gonna be a little bit more expensive and you're gonna. It's gonna take you a little bit longer to be fully debt free with a house. Cool. Or are you gonna stay there and you're gonna make a little bit less money? It's gonna take you a little bit longer to pay off your house, but you have friends and connections and family and whatever else is going on in Harrisburg. Cool. But you're. You're skirting the real issue. The real question here is, do y'all want to do life in Ohio together? Do you want to do life in Harrisburg? Or. I had. He had a dream of being a part of the federal government. After living in that dream for ten years and getting moved and shifted and pushed around every two years, it's just not good for the family.

So we're going to get a new dream. But you keep wanting to make this about $2,000 here and $7,000 over here, and it's just not. That's on the fringes. You're not dealing with a core question.

Right.

Is that fair?

Yeah. I mean, we've known about this for a year that this was coming, and so we've talked about every aspect in every scenario, and we feel like there's possibilities here and there's support at home, and so we're just torn 50 50.

Where'd you grow up?

My kids are open. I've lived in the same zip code my whole life.

In Pennsylvania?

Yes.

Okay. So does it scare you to leave a little bit?

Yeah.

Is there a little bit that would terrify me?

Are you excited at all about the prospect of, like, oh, this is a new adventure for us, or is it all just sort of like, ugh.

I'm just. I'm torn right down the middle?

Here's what I. You can make both of these scenarios be wonderful.

Yep.

You could have a great attitude and go, you know what? This can be a new adventure. It's gonna be fun. We're gonna be making more money. Sure. We'll have to find a new house, cost of living. They're going to cover a lot of that, and it's going to be great. We'll get the house paid off. Here's our new goal. And you live a great life in Ohio.

We're going to get into a homeschool consortium, and I'm going to make. Make a bunch of new friends. And it's going to be awkward and weird, but I'm going to go do this because it's going to be a blast.

I'm going to make some new friends, or you stay and you deal with whatever consequences come with that, whether it be unemployment, a dip in pay, and we slow down our goals here. I think either way, you just have to be okay with whatever's next based on the decision you make and what.

You choose to do with that decision. And can we just also. This is kind of a cool thing. What are the chances that within the next two to three years, something else gets moved or shifted or changed just based on track record?

Well, this is. So this would be the first time they moved there. This is supposed to be the permanent location for this now because technically, Harrisburg isn't even in the district that they're in, so it didn't make sense. So they're moving. This is supposed to be it. It's not like it happens often.

Okay. There's an election coming up in November. I just. As far as, like, stability and federal government stuff, I just. You're inside of it, so you have a better insight than I do. I just. I think y'all could make a decision to move to Ohio and put two years on the calendar, 24 months. And if it's miserable, y'all can move. Or chances are y'all gonna get moved anyway, or there's gonna be some new something or other.

I imagine his ceiling is higher. Moving into a supervisor role, too, right?

Yeah.

So we gotta also think about what that does for our financial future.

Right?

I know. But listen to me on this side, Brittany, as two guys who have worked really hard and have, quote unquote, earned positions, which. That's a whole other language conversation we could have later, I want my wife to be whole and happy. My life isn't just about what I've earned professionally. It's about the life my wife and I are creating and the life George and Whitney are creating. And so he can, quote unquote, earn any job he wants. But if his wife longs to be somewhere else, no job is worth that. So I think you have to sit down and be honest and say, I want to go, and we're going to. I'm going to go all in on this. I'm going to go 100%, or I don't want to go. I really want to stay here, make.

Peace with whatever decision you do make.

And then go make a good time out of it. This is the Ramsay show.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey show. Triple 8825-5225 let's go out to Dallas, Texas, and talk to Alex. Hey, Alex. What's going on?

Hey, guys. How's it going?

Outstanding, brother. What's up?

So my wife and I about to are going to wrap up baby step three in about a month, month and a half. And so as we look forward, we are sort of split between saving up for a house or maybe saving up for to start a business.

Exciting. What are you guys doing now for work?

So right now I work in HR for an electricity provider and she works in HR compliance for an audit group.

Beautiful. Love and HR. We love to see it. Okay. What's your household income?

About 145 pre tax.

Amazing. And what is the business you want to start?

We want to start a coffee card business, essentially serving coffee to weddings, most likely on the weekends. We wouldn't like to let go of our weekday jobs.

Okay. And what is it going to cost to start this business?

We're estimating probably like 2025 for the.

Actual card itself, for the entire thing.

Card espresso machine and, you know, the essentially initial investment.

Okay. And how long have you guys been married?

We're about to hit two years in August.

Fun. And you're renting right now. What is the urgency to buy a house in Dallas, Texas? Is that feasible?

That's the thing. Like when we look at what we can afford with our budget, we either have to buy something that is a little bit on the older side when it comes to a home, or we would have to go way off into either east or west, too far from our jobs. And yeah, it would make our commutes a little too long in our opinion.

Okay, well, I don't think these are mutually exclusive. I think you can start to attack both. And so one thing I would do is set a down payment goal and then make sure you guys are sticking to that. And on the other side, any leftover money, because we're not going to put 100% of our margin toward that is, let's start saving up for this coffee cart to pay cash for it.

Yeah.

How much margin will you guys have to throw every month toward these goals? Once you're out of baby step three and you're investing 15% after investing 50%.

We'D be looking at maybe 2000, maybe 2500.

Okay, so let's say twenty five k a year. So one route you could go is all right. For the first year, we're not going to save up for a house. We're going to continue renting. And in one year we're going to have the money to start this coffee cart business. It sounds like you're real excited about the coffee cart business and the house thing. Is like, well, we can push that down the road a little bit. Is that fair?

Yeah. Yeah. It just. Whenever we look at houses, it just, you know, whenever we think about the investment, it doesn't seem as exciting at the moment, just with interest rates. And again, just our purchasing power right now is not. It doesn't excite us, at least from the houses that we've looked at.

That makes sense.

And George, I had a buddy one time, and, Alex, I'm going to ask George a question on your behalf. It's more of a global question. I had a buddy one time. This is years ago. I was going back and forth whether I was going to buy a house or not buy a house. It was a small house. It's all I could afford and this and that. And I kept running these investment numbers, and it was like, well, if I rent here, and then 36 months here, the math just never came out. And one day a buddy of mine who works in finance said real emphatically, dude, buy your wife a home. And I looked at him and I was like, yeah, but look at the. And he interrupted me. And he is the most roi guy I know. He said, get your family a home. And yes, this will become an investment over time, but that property that is your home is your home, right? It's where you anchor in. And that sentiment was something I had never considered, and it has since transformed everything, I think about when it comes to buying real estate in homes, if you're buying real estate for investment properties, you buy investment for properties.

That's awesome. But there's something about having a home that in my opinion, after, you know, buying and selling houses and being married for over 20 years, that transcends the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet, I like that it transcends the spreadsheet. It's a place where the Delaunays anchor into, and we've had multiple of those. But this is where we come in and drop our shoulders. This isn't the don't touch the counters, don't touch the walls, because this is an investment property. We're going to flip this rolls. This is a place where we do life. Right? We make memories. We. It's where our home exists. And so. Is that a bad way to look at that?

No, not at all.

Okay.

I just, you know, everyone had different values, and it sounds like Alex and his wife, they're. They've been married two years. The home isn't the thing that they're, like, racing toward right now.

Right.

They have these, you know, while you're young before you have kids. Let's start this coffee car business. Remember when we did that? So it feels like that's where you guys are leaning. And you can also, you know, change your aim and go, all right, we're gonna get a condo in the next two years. And that's going to mean this much down payment. And we're going to use the coffee cart money to also throw at the down payment, which will speed up the process. So you can think about it as a. As not separate things, but one thing that will help the other.

Alex, have you all done the math? Like I'm sure I've done on the back of a napkin, but have y'all done, like, grown up business math on this coffee cart business? What do you think you're going to make?

We. We would expect to probably bring at least first year. I mean, we'd be looking around maybe 1000 per per event if we're working one Saturday, I mean, that would be around 12,000. And again, we're not in a hurry to start this and go all off and quit our day jobs, but we're passionate about coffee and would like to start that. And maybe what we're thinking is that it could potentially give us more money to cut towards a down payment for a home. But yeah, we've looked at the numbers, definitely in napkin math, but we could probably dive in a little bit more.

Well, I had a buddy who was really passionate about barbecue. Really, I mean, was the best cook there was. And that passion became starting a restaurant. And being really passionate about barbecue was different than being a passionate restaurateur.

Right, right.

And being really passionate about coffee. We love coffee. Like sourcing it. We like making our own. We like sharing it with our friends. That's one thing. Running a business that's going to be all Friday nights and Saturday nights and Sundays for indefinitely. That's a different type of passion. Right. And so I think it's just navigating which passion is, is the real passion. And as George said, in what order? Right. When we look up in three years, do we want to have a thriving coffee cart business? And if that was to be true, how much money would make that thriving? Or do we want to have a home? And what would that look like? And where would it have to be in the DFW market, which is chaos, like every other market in America right now. Those are some great questions. If you had to flip a coin, Alex, and you could have the coffee cart business of your dreams or a home, what would you what would you pick right now?

Oh, man. I think the first thing that came to mind was, was a home. And, don, that's something that, you know, I think we've been so focused on, like, what will be a return on investment, right? What will be better for our money? But emotionally, maybe we haven't had. We haven't been having those conversations.

I think we have a new conversation. Sit down with your wife and go, okay, what really is the priority right now? And can the coffee cart business way? And can we do the coffee cart business sooner and cheaper? And instead we just rent the espresso machine and we get a nice folding table with some cool decor around it, and we don't have to go buy a, you know, a mobile trailer for a coffee cart right now.

And we'll do the $500 weddings instead.

Of $1,000 weddings and start small, maybe do the first one for free for some friends. And, you know, you take some cool pictures and put that on a little website, and you just start small and start sooner while saving up for the down payment. I feel like that would give me more peace from moving toward both.

And, George, I've got entrepreneur friends who would rather set themselves on fire than buy a house. Like, they are too busy trying to start a thing and then start a business.

I don't have to worry about a house and maintenance and the repairs.

I'll sleep under. Under a tree. I want to start a business. And so I love that Alex is going to shift the question from, what's the best investment? What's the best ROI? It's what's the life that we want to create two years into our new marriage? Do we want to be a entrepreneurial couple that's going to build businesses together? And we're going to start with a coffee, and then one day we're going to have a wedding planning business, whatever. Or do we want to look up in three years and be well on our way to paying off a kind of old house, but it's ours, and we'll fix it up over time or we'll upgrade when the time's right. That's a different set of questions than what are we passionate about and what's the best roi right now? And I love getting to that. What's the real question behind.

What's behind the spreadsheet?

There you go. Yeah, that's a good question.

Cha ching. That's a good conversation.

Every once in a while, people need to actually use this bridge.

I think everyone has those dreams, like we want to do the house. But I also want XYZ or.

I'm really passionate about music. You don't have to quit everything, right? Or. What is that? What does that mean? What's the. What's. What's the question behind pass.

I love coffee. I'm not trying to make money off it. I'm not smart.

You do consume enough to where your heart one day will go.

Right down there.

We'll see it from space. That's it for this hour, America. We'll be back soon. Right here on the ranch show. Live from Nashville, Tennessee, this is the Ramsey show. I'm John Deloney, joined by my good friend George Camel. And we are taking your calls on money, building wealth, selling your house, on your emotional health and your mental health, work you love, whatever you got going on in your life. We are here for you. Triple 8825-5225 this show is made of up of real people going through real challenges in real time. And George and I are going to sit with you and figure out what's the next right move. Triple 8825-5225 let's go out to Dallas, Texas, and talk to Kelly. Hey, Kelly, what's up?

Hey, what's up?

What up? What are we doing?

I just had a couple questions about how to get out of credit card debt and kind of stay afloat with mine and my husband's fluctuating income.

All right, bring it on. What's going on?

So we have $2,300 worth of credit card debt, which is a big hurdle that we have right now. However, it's super hard to pay it off considering that our incomes fluctuate so much. He could bring home anywhere from $1600 to $4,000 a month. And I can bring home anywhere from one thousand four hundred dollars to one thousand six hundred dollars a month.

What do y'all do?

He works for a warehouse here in town, but the pay is competitive and it's based off of work. And the attendance bonus can either double or cut your check in half, depending on if you were there the entire time or if you had to miss a day for any reason. And I work for ups.

Okay, so if he shows up to work, he'll make $4,000?

Yes. So, among other things, like, it's based off of hourly, so it starts at $15 an hour, and the attendance bonus is an extra $5 an hour.

So why wouldn't. I don't understand why. It's not like school. I mean, just stay there. Why would you lose that?

Well, I mean, for instance, he missed a day a month ago because I had to call 911 for our son.

Well, that's different.

Yeah.

That's not the everyday occurrence, but that's a once in a year or two or five. That would. That would happen, yes.

But it still affects the attendance bonus.

Okay.

So if you miss one day, you lose the whole month's worth of attendance bonus?

It's paid every two weeks, but yes, it can cut your check in half or it can double it depending on your attendance.

Okay. Are you working full time?

I work part time at ups and we have it set that way. I work in the mornings and he works in the afternoon till late at night so that we can avoid having to pay for childcare.

Okay. How many kids do you have?

We have two.

All right. And outside of the 2300 in credit card debt, what other debt do you have?

He has. He had to get a truck, and I say had to because his car before was just breaking on us constantly. We ended up spending like $2,000 to fix it in January. And that would have paid for three months worth of a truck payment. Wasn't reliable. Wasn't really.

What's left on the truck loan?

It's 23,000.

So he chose to get a $23,000 truck loan. Okay. What else?

And then I have $2,000 worth of student loan debt.

Okay. And that's everything?

Yes, that's everything.

All right. So all in all, we're about. We'll call it $27,000 in debt.

Yes.

What's your household income for the year if you added it all up?

I think when we filed our taxes, it was 67,000 last year.

Okay. All right. So we're trying to get out of $27,000 worth of debt. We make 67. How much margin could you guys have if you got on a every dollar budget and you said, hey, anything that's not food, shelter, utilities, transportation, insurance, we are not going to spend money on it. How much money could you have to throw at the debt?

I mean, on a good month where he makes 4000, probably $1,000 a month.

Okay, so $1,000 a month times 27 months means you're debt free in a little over two years if you can throw a thousand. Right?

Yeah.

Now, what if we could find a way where we could spend less and make more in where we could put 2000 a month, then we could pay it off in about a year. Right?

Yeah.

Now we're talking. That sounds a whole lot better to me if we're going to sacrifice.

Right.

So that's where the budget comes into play. We look at the budget and we say, here's how much we're going to bring in this month. Here's what our expenses are. Every other penny is going to go toward our smallest balanced debt. Have you tried that yet?

We have. I did financial Peace University when I was 14.

Oh, my God.

Every two years since. And so we're still on baby step number one. Like, we're just trying to get a savings account. And every time we get something put back, we get a flat tire or, you know, the catalytic converter goes out in the car or our room floods from the bathroom. Like it's just one thing after another. We cannot get past baby step number one.

I know, but, Kelly, you went out and bought a 20 something thousand dollars.

Truck, so you have enough to cover a car payment.

No, y'all. Yes, y'all did. And unless, unless he has just gone rogue and that's a whole other issue you gotta, you gotta address.

Did he do this behind your back?

No, I advise not to. I advise if he was going to get a car and give me something more affordable.

George, I don't want to put you on blast, but your Tesla didn't cost.

No, I. George is a millionaire and.

He doesn't drive a car that expensive. Again, my truck isn't near that expensive. I want you to hear us say.

Like, anytime a guy says I had to buy a truck, he is lying.

Unless he is like a lineman.

Anytime he convinces his wife that he had to buy a truck, he's an amazing salesman.

But here's the thing.

Like, at some point we have to decide that life's not going to just happen to us anymore. And it does take a while to get out of the cycle, Kelly, because I'm telling you, like, I remember when I was broke, it was like, Murphy wants to just live with me and go like, hey, buddy, I know you're trying to get out of debt, but here's a little emergency. Have fun with this. And at some point, we have to go. No longer are we going to let life control us. We're going to have agency and autonomy over what happens next. And that might mean we sell the truck.

And here's a deeper issue. I am not going to work at a place that if I have to go take my son to a hospital that I lose half of my in my income for the month, I refuse. I'm not going to be held hostage.

We live in a really small town. It's one of the best jobs that are here. But he is still applying for other jobs.

Okay, good, because I don't want to be held hostage that way. I'd rather work at Walmart throwing boxes for $20 an hour.

That's stable.

And it's stable. It will always be there. And it's. It's. You might not want to say I work at Walmart, but I tell you what, the job's gonna keep being there, and they're gonna keep paying you $20, and they're gonna pay you overtime if you keep working hard. And you can always count on that. But your original call is, how do we even get out of debt when our. Our income fluctuates by 50% in certain. In certain weeks or certain months?

Yeah.

And you need stability as much as you need more money. Do you have. You live in a small town. Do you have anybody that can watch your kids for a few hours a day?

My friend from Missouri just moved in, and she's helped out a little bit. So we also do, like, Walmart delivery. We do doordash. I bake on the side for extra income. But here lately, it's only making up from what he's lost in attendance bonuses.

Okay. Well, the deal with a regular income is in that budget. If you have a regular income for anyone listening, you're going to start with the four walls. Food, utility, shelter, transportation, that gets paid first. If you make more than that, then we're going to cover the rest of the bills that need to get paid. But luxuries are out until this debt is gone. And I think he needs to strongly consider selling this truck and driving a beater truck for now. Because we got to swallow our pride while we're getting our family to stability. And that's going to hurt. He's not going to like it. And I hope he doesn't come fight me, because I'm sure he could take me to fight. So if he asks, John said, I'll say it.

Sell the truck, man. Your family's stability is way more important than looking fancy driving down the road. This is the Ramsey show.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey show. One of the greatest ways you can support your neighbors. Making sure they get financial information that can change their life costs no money. You don't even have to talk to your neighbors. You don't even have to be that weird. All you have to do is like the show, subscribe to the show, leave a five star review, and it kicks the show up in the algorithms of the youtubes and the podcasts and wherever else you consume the show. And it puts it in front of more people. More people get the life changing wisdom of don't spend more than you make. Or the life changing wisdom of I don't buy a house or a car that you can't afford and don't wait on the government to bail you out. Just wild, new fangled wisdom. Like, controversial, controversial. Highly controversial. All that. All that. More. How dare you. Triple 8825-5225 let's roll out to Minneapolis and talk to the great and powerful Lance. Hey, Lance.

Hey, man. How's it going?

Great. What's up?

Not a whole lot. Just, just a couple questions. Been listening to you guys for a few months. I like and agree with everything, but I'm in a weird situation because I can't get past baby step six because I don't own a home. We've been renting. My wife and I have been married for seven and a half years. And we've been renting for seven and a half years. We were kind of waiting for house prices to go down, and they never did. So I ended up starting a business with my sister. She lives in Iowa. And we buy, I bought like three condos with her that are rentals. And I also bought a place with her down in Yuma, Arizona. They winter there. And so I have four paid for income producing properties. I have a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank. My wife and I both make a good income. She makes around 100 grand. I make around 100 grand. I'm self employed. She has a 401k that she pays 6% and the company matches 6%. So we're sitting in a good spot. Here's my dilemma. I want to continue to grow my rental properties.

I want to buy like a duplex, move into half of it, pay it off in a couple years or less, and then buy our dream home. She, every house I show her, she obviously doesn't want to live with anybody. She doesn't want to rent out any part of it. And the median house price in Minneapolis say we live on the outskirts. It's probably close to 400,000 right now. We rent and we get a great deal. We probably live in a four or $500,000 house, and we pay 21 50 a month, which isn't terrible. It's not breaking the bank. We're able to save every month. And obviously I'm able to grow my rentals, but I know that I'm sitting here wasting time paying that $2,100 every month.

Lance, can I say something controversial?

Yeah.

You want to grow your rentals more than you want to grow your marriage.

Get your wife a home.

Like, when is she gonna. You've been married eight years.

Get your wife a home.

I told her ten. I said in ten years, you buy.

Whatever house you want, but you guys have the money.

Get her a home. Today.

Today I think she wins. Okay. What kind of house does she want? Let's talk about the house she wants.

This is more fun house, man.

I know she does.

Here's.

But you are caring for four other families more than your own.

What are your, what are your properties worth altogether?

So they're not their condos in Iowa, they're worth around 90 grand apiece.

Okay.

And the one in Arizona, we just bought it for 130. But that one's probably, I think we're coming into it with a little bit of equity, maybe 1015 thousand.

So you have over half a million dollars in investment properties.

Well, it's. I got half of a half a million dollars, so my sister and husband.

Own the other half.

So I have a few hundred thousand, 230 to 200.

And how much do you have in cash?

200. Okay.

And you would be uncomfortable putting down 200,000 on a $500,000 home?

Yeah, because that three, the 300,000 at that interest rate is still looking at like a 2000 $803,000 payment.

What's your take home? After taxes, but before other deductions, like investing in health care. What would your take home pay be?

So you'll make $200,000 a year?

Yeah, it's probably like 910 thousand a month.

Okay, let's say it's 10,000 a month, we'll take 25% of that. That's gonna go toward the mortgage. So 2500, let's say, is the max, right?

Well, toward the mortgage, yeah. I don't know what, the math works out to a 300,000, probably 25, 2800. Yeah.

Well, all I'm saying is you go find. Now we know. Okay, we. Our goal is $2,500 payment on a 15 year fixed rate mortgage. That's what we're gonna do. Well, now we have the home price and down payment numbers to go. All right. If we put 200,000 down, we can afford a $420,000 home. Home. And so it's less about our lance's emotions versus her emotions. And it's based on a parameter we agreed on. And then we're going to do it when the math makes sense.

And by the way, retirement and taxes take up $80,000. Well, you're bringing home more than ten grand a month.

I'm a. I. She does pay a lot towards her HSA. She kind of taps that out. So we have that then. I. I'm self employed. So someone type bring home a lot and other months I bring home not as much.

What about the rental income? I mean, is that not counting.

Yeah, the rental. No, that's not counting the rental income. I didn't even put that.

Where is that going?

The rental. The rental income right now is probably around 1500 a month. My portion that I bring home.

Have you done the math?

Money, go.

Have you done the math on how much this divorce is going to cost you? It's going to cost you half of everything you own.

I'm just saying, if we were patient for two years, we would have another duplex paid.

I just got an amazing deal on this investment property, so I'm going to put the money towards that. But next year, babe, it's going to be your year.

I already tried that. That doesn't work.

No. Get your wife a home. Get. Tell your wife, listen, take her out to dinner tonight and with some flowers and tell her I want you to have a spreadsheet and I want you to put on the, on the, on the table. And if you're really romantic, I want you to hang it over like the little candle and let it just burn up. Burn it and let, let the spreadsheet burn up and say, I love you and I have turned our marriage into a roi and it should be an I love you. Ooh, that sounds kind of good.

I'm driving a 2003 regular cab Chevy pickup with 181,000.

Hold on, hold on. You hear this? America, listen.

All this money.

Listen, America, listen. It's the world's smallest violin. Nobody cares.

What does she drive?

Lance, buy yourself a car. Buy you.

Make.

Sure I could buy a car. Just can't buy a duplex.

Geez. Well, you know why? Because somebody else lives in there with you. Oh, my gosh. You watch way too much instagram. Dude, get your wife a home.

I was. I was gonna let her listen to this episode, but now I can't.

We'll make sure she listens.

Hey, it's already in the record, so when y'all go to court, it's gonna get played anyway.

Lance, you know. You know what? You can't put an RoI on the joy on her face when you tell her, honey, we're gonna buy a house.

Gonna buy.

Not for someone else, for us.

Let's go shop.

Let's go house shop.

No. Even better. Let her go house shot. You have been house shop because you're.

Gonna make it miserable. You're gonna go. No way. I could find a much cheaper house.

Let's go to tile depot. Let's go to the tile depot outlet warehouse and see if we can get that same tile for. Dude, you get your wife a house. Get out, y'all. Dude, you have done an amazing job. You're crushing. How old are you?

45.

Amazing.

38.

It's amazing.

And you never own, so I don't.

Want to do three.

There, you see? You're laughing. You know how expensive divorce is. All right, get her a house. Get her a house.

Has she ever owned a house?

Nope.

And she's 38 years old.

Only the rentals. Yeah, she's never owned one.

And you guys make 200 grand, and you have 200 grand in the bank. Are you seeing what I'm seeing?

My taxi tells me to buy a house every year.

Wow.

You know why? Because he knows how expensive.

He's seen some things. Lance. Oh, man. We're having fun with you, Lance. I want to see you win. I want to see your marriage win. And part of that, which is hard for guys like us, Lance, because we love doing the math and the ROI. But you know who doesn't care about that is the person who loves you the most in this whole wide world. They want a great life with Lance, and at some point, they just don't care about another investment property that'll bring in another $300 a month. They just want a place to call their own.

And at the end of the day, often people want to know, do you love me more than golf? Do you love me more than your business? Do you love me more than the spreadsheet? Do you love me more than the good deal on the duplex that we can move in and someone else can live next door to us and listen to house music all night long? Whatever the thing is, buy our house. And you better let her listen to this episode, my friend. This is the Ramsay show. Welcome back to the Ramsey show. Listen, the best way to make the most of your money is by creating and sticking to a monthly budget. I still don't like doing budget, and it's still the only way to keep me on the rails. George loves budgets.

I live to just track the next transaction.

I feel like you're like, heart rate just goes up ten beats sometimes.

I just look at it. I should admire it.

Like, I heard you the other day, and you were just like, oh, man. And I looked over and, like, you had your budget out. You're just, like, all excited. Anyway. The best way to make the most of your money is by creating and sticking to a monthly budget. Whether you like it or not. Every dollar makes it simple to plan spending, track expenses, and save for what matters most. All of this is in an easy to use app that fits into your busy lifestyle. Everydollar has saved my feeble attempts at making really complicated 75 tab spreadsheets. It kind of calls out all my bull crap and all my excuses and just puts it right there in front of one keystroke.

And your formula got blown up, and it's like, hashtag ref. And I'm like, I don't know what's happening. Get me out of the spreadsheet.

Well, no, that works. But it just allows me to be like, well, you know, like, in five years, if we do this, we triple stay with double stamp that. Just how much did you spend this month versus what you said you were going to?

Can I tell you anyone, any spouse that uses the spreadsheet, your spouse doesn't want to look at it. You're the only one in the family versus every dollar. It's loaded up on your phone. You can both just tap in. You have the accountability. No one has to look at a spreadsheet again.

And there is some comfort slash accountability, depending on which side of this you fall on, that if you and you and your spouse tie yourselves to the same every dollar account or connect with the every dollar account. When you spend, she knows. When she spends, you know, and you.

Don'T have to blame each other, you can just call your budget Derek and say, oh, classic Derek. Am I. Right. That's not really how he said, we can't.

Goes in my house. But.

No, no, just. Sheila says, john, stop.

Yes, exactly. So download every dollar for free. It doesn't cost any money in the app store or the Google Play store. Is that right? The Google Play store?

Yeah, that sounded right.

Have you ever been to the Google Play store?

You made it sound wrong, but I think it's technically right.

Go to the Google Play store or the app store today, right now, and download every dollar for free. Let's go out to Rochester, New York, and talk to Mitch. Hey, what's up, Mitch?

Hey, guys. How we doing?

Outstanding, brother. What's up?

So my wife and I are drowning a little bit in debt.

Tell us about it, man.

Yeah, so we both have advanced degrees. We're looking at about 400,000 in student debt and then about 200 on a mortgage. And essentially the interest on my loan comes out to about 1500 every month. And kind of the thing that's slowing us down to make any progress. So it's kind of putting us in a paycheck to paycheck situation.

Are you guys using both degrees?

Yeah, yeah. We're both practicing chiropractors.

Awesome. What's the household income?

About 120.

That feels low. Are both working full time?

Yeah, we're both early in our careers, so there's definitely room for growth. But, yeah, we're still in the first, kind of.

Are you working for another practice right now?

Yeah, both of us are at separate practices as associates.

Can you work on. Do private practice on Saturdays and Sundays, or is that a violation of your contract?

Yeah, that's a no go.

So, I hate to tell you this, but as a guy who's got advanced degrees, who ran up a bunch of student debt, you're going to have to do the job that you get to feel prestigious about, and you're going to have to do a bunch of other work on the side because you. Because that 1500 bucks, dude, that's. That's. That's net neutral, right? You're spinning your wheels and you're going nowhere, right. How did this happen, man? How'd y'all borrow 400 grand to be chiropractors?

Well, so tuition is about 150 or so. So, you know, between that living expenses, that's kind of where it adds up.

But how'd you end up taking jobs for $60,000 apiece?

I could. I could talk your ear off all day long about the ins and outs of why Cairos don't get paid. But New York tends to be one of the bad states for it. And is it time for y'all to move? Maybe. We just bought a house as the.

Yeah, I know. But you owe more than half a million dollars in debt.

Oh, yeah.

And you know that. But I just want to say it out loud. And you make 60 grand a year.

Right.

That's a scary reality. Right?

Oh, yeah.

So this is going to look different now. Our friend Jade Warshaw heard and her husband, Sam Warshaw, they paid off $468,000 in seven years. So your journey's going to look more like that than the average baby stepper who's like, I paid off my debt in two years. So we need to figure out what it looks like to at least pay off your debt. Debt with an aggressive timeline. Let's say if it's seven years, that's fifty seven k a year, which means all of one of your gross incomes would need to be going toward the debt, which I don't think you guys can do right now. Right. With your minimum payments, your mortgage. So we need to figure out how to get the income up in order to pay off this debt in an aggressive timeline. And that the only way to do that is by spending less and making more. So, one option is you sell the house you rent to alleviate at least that mortgage weighing you guys down, and you go work every single weekend. And one of you is working one night. The other ones you're switching off. Do you guys have kids?

Yeah, we got one little guy.

Okay. And what's childcare look like?

300 a week.

Okay. That's not too bad for daycare.

Yeah.

Okay. So that's just gonna be part of our budget. Are you guys doing an every dollar budget right now?

We're kind of on the start of that right now.

Okay. I'll help you out. I'll give you every dollar premium so it connects to your bank account, has some really cool extra features like paycheck planning, financial roadmap. So hang on the line when we're done, and we'll gift that to you guys to help you on this journey. And it will be a journey, but the only way is we got to get this income way up in order to knock out, you know, 40, 50, 60 grand a year from these student loans instead of two grand a month.

But you even realize that 50 to 60,000 a year is the bare minimum, right?

Surprisingly, no. It gets a lot worse than that.

Tell me about it.

So, I mean, I've got colleagues who are making 2030 a year around the same area. So how is that possible?

I know what I pay my chiropractor. How's that possible?

I wish I knew, but it seems to be the reality. Unless you're in a separate state taking a salary. A large part of it is a lot of our salaries based on volume. So if you're seeing a lower number of patients earlier in your career, you're not making as much as, say, someone who's seen double your volume.

But why would you sign up with a practice if they're not handing you clients? That's what you trade, right? You trade the full weight of the payment for a steady stream of clients, right?

Yeah, we're, us specifically. We're a newer practice, so everyone's growing. I think there's definitely been some learning curves.

Is there another practice you could go join? Did you sign a contract where you have to stay a certain amount of time or what?

Yeah, I'm locked in here and I feel pretty passionate about the people I'm with. Like I said, I do think there is room for growth. And I know there's a handful of other practices in the area that I've looked at might not have been a better fit for. So part of it, I guess, comes down to my morals and how I'm willing to practice.

No, I don't think that's it, man. I don't think you're. Man, maybe I'm crazy, Mitch, but. And again, I've just, I just spent my whole career sitting with medical professionals. I don't think you're. I don't think you're getting it. You want to have, like, I got these morals, man. You also have a moral responsibility to pay off your debts. You have a moral responsibility to be a present father in your home and a husband. And you can't do that when you owe half a million dollars. And there's this sense of, well, it's just the way this is in this town. Well, then sometimes throughout human history, people have gotten on a boat because the farm wasn't. Wasn't producing and they went across the world. Right. There's. Sometimes you have to get up and just go do a radical thing. If, and if it's going to grow, then somebody's going to have to just do wild things like work late at night. And we're the only practice open on Saturdays and Sundays. And we work from 04:00 p.m. until midnight because that's when people get off of work. Y'all gonna have to get radical about developing a different kind of practice.

So y'all can make more money than these other just meandering practices in the neighborhood. And so if you're gonna go do this, man, you got to go all in, like, your life depends on it, cuz it does. You can't just go, oh, it only makes 60 grand. That's just the market in this area. That kind of ad I could just. Is, you know, they. I could tell you why they don't pay. No. Go make it happen. Go make it happen. There's gotta be a sense of urgency and almost not panic, but almost panic. I'm gonna go make this happen for me and my family. Let's go.

It's way too easy to put off making a will. And believe me, I've heard every excuse in the book. But not having the time is one excuse we can kick to the curb right now, because these days, most folks can make a legally binding will on their laptop between loads of laundry. If you're wondering if you can make your will online or if you need a lawyer, we have a quiz to help you figure that out in less than five minutes, just go to ramsaysolutions.com willsquiz. Ramsaysolutions.com willsquiz.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show, George. John, I had a little bit of a bad attitude on that last call.

I could tell you got a little fired up, but I know. I also know, as someone you've experienced, you know, high levels of student loan debt, getting advanced degrees, and the heartbreaking part is the ROI. It almost feels like, I mean, they're literally getting scammed. To go $400,000 into student loan debt to make 60 or 100, boggles my mind.

Yeah, I I get that. And here's the challenge. I think the. I think when you graduate with a advanced degree, there's just this feeling that now the world is going to open up to me, and I've experienced it a couple times. Right. Like, now I can kind of do whatever I want. And then you realize, like, oh, no, math still applies. And my quote, unquote, following my passion, if there's not a market for it, there's not a market for it. Right. And I want to do what I want to do in this particular geographical location. Well, those jobs only pay this, so you can't. And when you owe money, especially you owe that much money. What you want to do and what you're passionate about goes out the window because you owe that much money.

What you have to do, where you want to be.

I want to be by family. I want to have. I just want to stay at home. I want a homeschool. All that goes out the window because you first, before you, you had these principles and values. You hitch yourself to that wagon, which is, in this case, half a million dollars. Right? And it's heartbreaking because I could tell somebody like Mitch wants to help his community. If you're around good chiropractors, there's some scam ones or scam every. Every profession. You're a good chiropractors. Their whole life is dedicated to giving people their life back, helping them move, helping them not be in pain, helping to get back to work. All those things. They're amazing to be around. They're inspiring. But, man, when you're so constricted on what you can actually do in your life just because of how much you owe, it's so you can hear it in their voices. It's just so terrifying. Right? And I wish there was better coaching on the front end, but on the back end, man, it is what it is. Now we have to live in reality and make some really hard choices, but when you can, you know, you can get a full time job at a.

Being a manager of a local fast food joint for the same amount you can make after a doctorate degree in some of these professions. You gotta weigh that, right?

That's tough. Well, I hope everyone who is about to get a degree, you have a kid, you're a parent. Go watch borrowed future, our award winning documentary. It's free on YouTube. It's at about 88 minutes. And the stories in there, there's some heartbreaking ones and there's some inspiring ones. I remember the dentist who had a million dollars into debt. And hearing him, the tears and the shriek of pain in his voice is haunting. And that makes me go triple check and make sure this is going to be worth the juice, is worth the squeeze on this.

All right. Today's question of the day comes from Beth in Indiana.

Here's what Beth has to say. Our oldest daughter ran away after high school graduation to live an alternative lifestyle that we don't approve of. She hasn't spoken to us in three years, though we've tried to contact her. We have some savings and life insurance, about 5 million, and need to make a will. As we have nothing in place right now. We have three other children that are responsible and trying to live God honoring lives. Would you include a child in your will that refuses to have a relationship with you? We aren't quite sure how to handle this. We love her dearly, of course, but also don't want to support her lifestyle. Is there a fair way to deal with this?

I mean, there's a lot of. I don't really know what this. What she's talking about here. So.

You don't agree with your child's decisions, morally, ethically, financially, whatever they're doing, the relationship is strained. Do you still leave them in the will?

I mean, I guess it depends on how you look at your will. Is your will a. A reward for a job, a childing well done? Right? Is it a. An investment in the future of your legacy? Like, what are you using your will for? And I think that's question number one. Question number two is it doesn't sound like Beth has understood that she left the child, left them. And the kid has said, for whatever reason, I don't want to be a part of y'all's life anymore. I don't want to talk to you all anymore. And I'm assuming that means I don't want your money either. I don't want anything to do with y'all. Y'all have said you don't approve of me. You don't. You don't accept me. So I'm out. And so in that case, as far as I'm concerned, the will is second best. I always want my kid to know you can come to my home. And I love you.

Yeah.

You're okay here.

I'm between a rock and a hard place here. Because on one hand, I'm like, okay, don't put them in the will. That's your prerogative. You're not a bad person.

No.

And on the other hand, I'm just, like, thinking of the prodigal son story of, you know, the dad watching his son coming over the hill, and he's so excited. He's throwing the party, the feast. My son is home. We don't know that there's going to be a happy ending like that here. We just don't know. But I want to have that open handed spirit that says, this is not a one and done final thing, right. And that you're still fighting for this relationship, but you're also not going to chase them down, you know, and shove it down their throat, so. And I hope the relationships repaired.

Me, too.

There's a beautiful happy ending, and she gets back in the will. But I don't think it really matters at this point because the relationship does not exist.

I can just tell you, George, I cannot count dozens, maybe hundreds, but for sure, dozens of conversations I've had with parents over the years of college students and young adults who have come back in older years and said, I would do anything to have those conversations back, to have my judgments back, because I just want my kid. And sometimes we go to war over. I told you not to borrow money so you won't come home until you have that credit card or whatever else thing you write. My three kids are great, but it's you, because you. Whatever. I'm telling you, man, the number of families that have come back and said, I would do anything to have those conversations back and let my kid know that I love them, I don't agree with them. I think you're a knucklehead. As long as you're safe, right? If you're not being safe, that's a whole other conversation. Right, right. Or if you're struggling with addiction, that's a whole other conversation.

And that's the part we don't know. But what is alternative lifestyle? Is she blowing this money on drugs? I have no idea.

But here's the deal. When it comes to your will, it's your money. You decide what you want to use it for and what this, your $5 million, is for. I want to tell all parents out there, don't use your inheritance to buy love from your kids or buy completely loyalty. Yeah, that's the part.

The part that irked me was that we have three other children that are responsible. They're trying to live God honoring lives.

Yeah.

I'm like, well, now it's a competition of morals and who makes mom the proudest? Which. That part feels weird to me.

Yeah, it's tough.

It's a very personal thing. I can't decide for you. I just know I'd want to be open handed trying to repair the relationship. And who knows how much money you'll actually have when you, you know, hit the dusty trail? Celebrities have said, you know, Steve Harvey's like, me and your mom are gonna spend every dime we got. You ain't getting none of this. You know, that's fine. You know, guy Fieri said the same thing. He's like, I'm gonna spend all the money. I'm gonna let make sure that you're a responsible adult who knows how to make their own wealth. But I'm gonna spend what I've made or give it away to charities I.

Believe in, you know?

So I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it, but I do think you've got to.

But let's go to this question. Would you include a child in your will that refuses to have a relationship with you, you. It happens, but it's very rare that that is a one sided choice. Usually, somebody chooses to not have a relationship with their parents because their parents have put stipulations on that relationship that they are opting out of. Right. So it's actually a kid putting up a boundary saying, if this is your requirement for you to love me, I get the message. I'm out. Right? And so what? I include a child in my will that refuses to have a relationship with me, depending on whether that money would contribute to their premature death? Um, I would, yes, because it's about me, um, loving my kid, but that's me. And my hope is I never get to the situation. And I know it happens all. I mean, it's been my whole career, but this is heartbreaking. Um, what about you, George?

I got a nine month old. It's heartbreaking. Think about not having. Not having a relationship with. She just said, dad. Dad. Yeah. Said her first words the other day. I'm like, I cannot imagine one day where she's like, I want nothing to do with you. I would be so heartbroken. I think the will would be the last thing on my mind at that point.

Yeah. But truly, it's heartbreaking. But even my son's one of the most amazing young men I know. He's 14. And I asked him recently, I said, hey, as we're going into high school, when you reach age x, I want to take just you and me anywhere you want to go in the country. Like, anywhere in, like, we're going to go on a father son trip. And he's like, actually, I just want to do stuff with my friends. And I was like, I know, but, like, we can go anywhere. We do anything. And he's like, yeah, I just want to be with my friends. And it was a knife to my soul. And if I had said, well, then you don't. And now I'm doing this, right. I'm putting up this wall. Then if. If you don't let me love you like I want to love you, then you.

Oh, boy.

And, yeah, right.

You become the child.

That's exactly right. Then I start putting stipulations on that instead of and me going, man, that bums me out. But cool, man, I know you love your friends. And me having reconciled that I'm raising a young man who is going to separate from his dad over time.

It's tough parenthood, man. What a journey.

They didn't come in the manual on this one. This is the Ramsey show. We'll be back shortly. Live from Nashville, Tennessee, this is the Ramsey show. I'm John Deloney, joined by George Chaos. We are taking your calls about your money, your wealth building, the work that you love, your relationships, your mental and emotional health, just about everything. Triple 8825-5225 a couple of opinionated guys. We've got opinions for you.

That's me.

I think that's us, but that's cool. And we're great at grammar. Triple 8825. Let's go out to St. Louis, Missouri, and talk to Joe E. What's up, Joe?

Hi. How are you?

I'm outstanding, brother. How are you?

I'm doing well, thank you.

You bet.

What's up?

So my situation. My wife and I have been aggressively paying off debt this year. We had a plan to pay off all of our debt in 2024. And the issue, though, that we're having kind of midway through the year.

Oh, Joe, we lost you. Let's turn back on Joe.

We hear, brother. Joe, you there?

Can you hear me?

There we go. All right, now we're back.

Continue.

Go ahead.

All right, sorry. So I've got a couple of life changes coming up. My wife and I were paying off debt, and we just found out a a few weeks ago that we're expecting a baby.

Yeah.

Thank you. Baby number five.

Whoa. All right.

I take that back. Just kidding. No, that's good. That's awesome.

So, along with that, I'm looking in about a year to have a career change. And so my question, I guess, is how aggressively should I continue to pay off debt? Because I really want to pay off the debt this year. However, I understand, like, the stork mode concept, but I feel like we may have enough income that we could do both. So I'm just trying to figure out what priorities are.

Yeah, you're right about stork mode. For those listening, wondering what the heck that is. When you're having a baby and you're in baby step two, that's when it's okay to pause and just keep minimum payments, don't put anything extra, and just stack up cash in a savings account until mom and baby are home and healthy. And so that's okay to do. How much money do you guys have right now in the bank?

Barely any. And this is why I think we may have, I don't want to say maybe went too hard. Earlier this month, I looked at my bank account, and we had about $1,300 total.

So how long have you guys been living paycheck to paycheck like this.

Not basically this year, since we started paying off debt, all of our savings.

But have you been in debt since you've been married?

Not the entire time. So we had all debts paid off a few years ago, but then both my cars were totaled and my family car and my personal car that I take to work. So we then had to get new cars.

And we walked to the dealership and said, give me your most expensive cars, stat.

No, no, no. I was able to put a significant amount of money down. I have one car paid off already.

Okay.

And the only debt we have left is $20,000 on a. On a minivan. All right, so that's everything we got left.

So 28k on the minivan. And when is baby 20,000. 20,000. When's baby due?

Baby's due end of January.

Okay. So we have some time. What's your household income?

About? Just north of 11,000 a month.

Oh, my goodness. So why don't we get this van paid off in, like, three or four months?

Be well. So. And this is like, this is the thing with saving up for a career change and the baby.

Why do you need to save up for the career change?

So I'm my career. I'm active duty military.

Okay.

And there's a possibility that with a career change, it could be involuntary career change, just with a lack of promotion and separation and all that. So what?

You're speaking in code, Joe. You're speaking in code. Are you about to get laid off?

No, actually, maybe.

Are you about to get discharged?

I could, yes.

Honorably or dishonorably?

Honorably. Honorably. So it's just basically being passed up for promotion. It's not dishonorable or anything, but there's a chance that it could happen. If it does happen, it could happen as early as march of next year. So I'm getting a little nervous about.

So what is the career change? What are you wanting to do exactly?

So I have an engineering degree, and I'm wanting to be an engineer. And.

Okay, what does that have to do with you paying off the minivan in the next four months?

Well, basically, how aggressively I should be saving.

Don't say.

Because in just.

In fact, let's get priority straight. Number one, let's get out of debt, and then let's stack up some cash for baby. And my guess is, by the time baby's here, you will be debt free with a fully funded emergency fund. And if I'm you, I'm doing six months. Cause you got a whole lot of kiddos to take care of.

And think about this. If you're trading, paying this off and going bananas, right, paying this off, having five kids or four kids, pregnant wife, you're trading, paying this 20 grand off for having no job, the potential. And this is. This is anxious thinking, having the potential of no job and a $20,000 liability hanging around your neck, right?

And I would definitely prefer not to do that.

Right?

Just having that cushion. And.

I got it. I got it. When I get anxious, I create worst case scenarios and then I backfill them. How realistic is this that I lose my job? Yes.

It's. I'd say about 50 50. Honestly.

Is there anybody you can go sit down and ask?

No, because I'm waiting for promotion results to come out and they keep that hush hush.

Okay. And so promotion. I don't. I don't. I've never heard of this. So you're. You're teaching me live in your particular branch. You either get promoted. It's kind of like tenure. In academics. You get tenure or you get fired, right?

So if you. So if you get looked at. So you get looked at twice. And if I were to get passed up for promotion a second time. I got passed up for promotion once, I get passed up for promotion a second time, I have to be discharged.

How?

Seven months after I get notified of that.

How many?

Seven months later.

Month after I get notified.

Okay.

Which I should be notified end of August.

So you got plenty of time to make plans for what's next. Right now it sounds like we're ignoring the debt and the bay, like, all the things that are really happening in reality today. So here's my plan for you, Joe. You ready for it? Can you live off of him? What are your monthly expenses total up to? Fuel, utility, shelter, transportation, insurance, all of that for the family.

So my monthly expenses, it varies. When the kids. When my kids are in school, give me the average. Okay, so average, I'd say it comes out to be about 5000.

Okay. If you do 6000, you said you make eleven. So 5000 a month means there should be, if you do a budget, six grand a month. Now you do the math. In about three and a half months, the vans paid off. Am I correct?

Correct.

And then three and a half months later, we could have another 20 grand saved up.

And then the baby's here.

And then baby's here. So think about that. That could be a reality. Come January, you're debt free with an emergency fund, looking for an engineering job. And that means, like, a good plan.

Right. And that means when y'all are buying back this whole clothes, you aren't going to go hog wild this year. You're going to, you're going to hang on with those four kids the best you can. You're going to reuse some stuff, secondhand some stuff, Facebook marketplace, some stuff. Is that ideal? No. Is that what might be in season for you guys this year?

Yeah.

And seven months making that kind of money is 70 grand. That's a good landing pad for you to go be an engineer somewhere. You're going to be all right, my brother. We'll be right back.

Alright, lets cut to the chase. Its easy to get discouraged about crazy house prices and interest rates. But when you have the right real estate agent to help you buy and sell the right way, youll have confidence to make smart decisions. Ramsey trusted agents arent just experts who guide you through buying or selling. Theyre someone you can trust to have your back from the first call to closing day. Find a Ramsey trusted agent near you@ramseysolutions.com. agent ramsaysolutions.com Agent.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show. Triple 8825-5225 George, this is happening.

Are you talking about what I think you're talking about?

I'm talking about that, you, me, Demoney.

Rachel, couple thousand of our closest debt.

Free friends, Ken Coleman and several thousand Ramsayites on a boat traveling the high seas.

Man, it doesn't feel real, but it's, it's very real. It's called the live like no one else cruise. And it's back. It's happening March 22 through the 29th of 2025. So you got plenty of time to make your plans and join us.

Seven day cruise stops all through the Caribbean, Turks and Caicos to St. Thomas to Puerto Rico, the Bahamas.

Dude, this is wild.

And didn't they used to sing a song about this? Come on, pretty mama. Key Largo.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. We're not going to Kokomo, are we?

I think if we sing any more, the FCC will take us down.

I think you're right.

But here's the deal. The crew set sail in March of 2025. And if you want to go, here's the deal. You just need to put down a dollar 600 deposit to secure your cabin. So lock it in because this thing is going to sell out real soon. And this is for those who have done the hard work. They've lived like no one else. They've become debt free. We want to celebrate with you. And so we're going to do the largest debt free scream ever done, I think, in the world. I can't imagine bigger group people doing them.

It's going to be the largest debt free scream of all time in human history, ever.

So if you want more info, you can go to ramsaysolutions.com cruise. You can see all of the special guests we're going to have on there. Magicians, musicians, world class chefs, singers, songwriters. John might sing.

George will have. Your somersault routine is world class.

I think we need Ramsey personalities karaoke night, and that could be worth it.

Personality talent show would be incredible.

I could probably find a talent between now and then.

No, you can't. But some people can.

That's fair.

It's gonna be a no, actually. Jade would destroy us all.

Dads. Yeah. I'm not gonna be singing. Jade used to sing professionally on cruise ships.

I know.

So we're definitely out.

Nope, not doing that. Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas. Ann, more. We hope to see you there. March 22 through 29th, 2025. $600 deposit. That's it. $600. You can put it down. Reserve your cabin. They're going super fast. Ramsey solutions.com cruise. Cruise. Not slash. Rachel Cruz.

That's actually a good point, Randy.

Solution.com cruz. All right, let's go back out to Dallas, Texas, one of our favorite cities today, and talk to Amber. Hey, Amber, what's up?

Hi.

Thank you very much for taking my call.

Of course. What's going on?

Yeah, so I have been thinking about my living situation. I live in an apartment, and I don't have an income right now. I had a baby. He's 18 months old, and I also have a disability. So I have been pretty much just arriving on a long term disability settlement that I received, like, two years ago.

How much was that for?

The settlement was for. Let's see. I think it was 80,000.

Okay.

What's the nature of the disability, Amber?

So I have multiple sclerosis.

Okay.

And, yeah, so it was kind of crazy that I had just got that settlement, and then, like, a few months later, I found out I was pregnant.

But is it just you? Are you solo?

Yes, I am solo. That's the other thing.

Do you have any family in town?

No. No, not at all.

What is keeping you in Dallas at this point?

Well, I'm from Dallas, and dad is in Dallas, too.

What is his involvement right now with this relationship?

He's there.

But is he paying child support?

Still working through it.

Is he paying? Okay. Okay. Have you gone and formalized this with an attorney?

Yeah, that's something I'm looking into, but I haven't done anything yet. I've just been kind of using the first year to see how things are gonna go.

You know how they're gonna go, right?

Yeah, I think I have a pretty good idea.

I know how you want them to go, and I want them to go that way too, but they're not going to. To.

Yeah.

I want you to call legal aid, Dallas. There's some, there's a bunch of resources there, and if you can't get ahold of them, there's a couple of fantastic law school clinics there in the DFW area. And I want you to reach out to one of those clinics and see if they will walk you through the child support process so we can get him on record. So he's gotta pay. Now, we both know that that system's flawed and it doesn't always work out like we want it to, but I want it on record so that you have that additional support for that little baby. If he's going to choose to opt out of that baby's life, fine. But he's going to put some money down, okay. And support that kid. Is that fair?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. He kind of contributes a little bit.

But kind of contributes a little bit is not good enough for me. Yeah, I want. He is paying dollar 600 per month.

Yeah.

Every month.

Yeah.

Actually, that's crazy you say that because that's exactly what he's doing. All right, so what, I have this feeling that.

What's your living situation? How can we help you?

Yeah, so I'm in an apartment. It's a one bedroom and it's about 1700, like 1720 a month. That's including the water, trash, all that stuff. So about 1720 a month. And like I said, I've been, I've been living on this, you know, amount of money for the, like the last two years pretty much exclusively.

But you're burning through that.

What is the balance now?

So now we're sitting at like 40. I know. And so I'm like, this is dwindling really fast. I am really sad because I don't know what to do.

But will you qualify for disability?

I don't, I don't know. I did apply three years ago, the way before baby was here, but I was not at the hearing level, unfortunately.

But it sounds like, are you going to be able to work for the foreseeable future or is that not going to be a possibility?

I'm going to try because. Yeah, I'd rather try then because I know, it's going to be a long road if I apply again, which I might do.

I think you do both. But, Amber, can I just be super direct with you?

Sure.

You got the rug pulled out from under you in your life, didn't you, two years ago?

Oh, yeah. 100%. Yes.

In this diagnostic, this diagnosis is scary, and it's painful and it's uncomfortable, right?

Yes.

And then you found yourself with this amazing baby, and there was terror and fear and also optimism that dad was going to come through and it's going to work out, and it hasn't. Right?

Right.

I'm saying this because we have a compressed time limit together and because I. Cause I care about you. The whole time. You've been knocked down and you got knocked down a couple of times. Math has kept spinning.

Right.

The real reality has kept spinning while you're grieving. And so the quicker you can pull the pin on this apartment that you simply cannot afford, you can't afford a month place, plus utilities, because you're just burning through that settlement money that you got. And I would love more than anything for you to be able to just stay at home with that baby. It's just not a financial reality for you. And so if you have a local church that can help support you or if you can figure out a way to work from home, do different types of whatever that is, now that you're wrestling with, like, this is going to be the rest of my life with Ms, and here we go. So whatever you can do. I've worked with some amazing colleagues over the years who had MS, and it was tough for them. It was. It was a unique experience. But, man, they were contributors. They were. They were a plus. Rock stars on the team. Right? And so it's figuring it out. Okay? This has been my story. This has been my lot. But I'm gonna get back out there because I.

It's me, and it's this little baby. Right.

You need a sustainable solution long term. And for now, that might be, you know, applying for SSI, because right now, you got to take care of that baby. You got to pay the bills. And we also need to get out of this lease and find a cheaper apartment.

I would apply for SSI ASAP, and I would reach out and see if you can get out of your apartment, break the lease, say, I can't make the payments anymore, I have no job, I'm on disability, and go from there. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back.

Are you planning to sail with us on the live, like no one else cruise. Then you better book your cabin before they're sold out. If you're on baby step four and above, come aboard March 22 through the 29th of 2021, 2025. As we set sail for Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, San Juan, and the Bahamas. Join me, the Ramsey personalities, and a ton of special guests for the ultimate debt free celebration. Book your cabin because they are going fast. Head to ramsaysolutions.com cruise today.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show. I'm John Deloney, joined by George Camel. And we've got an amazing, beautiful family on the debt free stage. We've got Thomas, Suzanne, and Camon from Raleigh, North Carolina, the research triangle. How we doing, y'all?

Wonderful. How are you?

Good, you guys.

Thank you.

So you're on the debt free stage. How much debt did you pay off?

$167,000.

Okay. How long did that take?

37 months.

Wow.

Wow.

Cam, did you used to have a brother that they got rid of? What happened?

He's unamused by John. I love it so much. Okay, what was your range of income during that time?

So we started about 113, and we finished at about 133.

Way to go. What do you guys do for a living?

So I'm a pastor, I'm a nurse.

Wonderful. Wonderful careers helping your community. Love to see that. All right, what type of debt was the 167?

So a little bit of everything. We had credit cards, personal loans. We had about 58,000 student loans. That was actually. Actually the last part that we paid off. And then we had 75,000 in vehicle payments.

Whoo.

Man.

Preachers be rolling.

I had a 150 lariat that was fully loaded, and that was probably the hardest part to let go. And the motorcycle. That's right.

I feel like you still go in the garage in a dark room and just stare at the wall and be like, I miss you four.

Yeah.

Every time I see one drive by, I'm just like, hmm.

So you like things that go of room. And, Suzanne, did you have no part in these car loans? No.

I had a 2016 Explorer XLT, leather interior, sunroof, and I kind of had my identity in my car.

Wow.

And that was hard to let go of two, and I miss it every day.

Do you have any of these now?

Did you get rid of all the vehicles we drive? He drives a 2011 in Subaru Tribeca, now 200,000 miles.

Oh, that's a pretty picture.

Subaru, man.

Well, that one, actually. The engine blew up on.

Okay.

And so he. We traded in the explorer, got the Subaru Tribeca, and then he drives that. And I have a 16 escape that. They're both paid off now, obviously.

Wonderful.

But hold on. Can you say it again? But I miss it every day.

We do both miss our vehicles every day.

It's intense. So three years, you paid off 167 grand. How did you do that? And what got you on the path?

We sold everything.

Yeah.

Except our child.

And she picked up all kinds of shifts.

So I went from a Monday through Friday eight to five job to a 36 hours a week, twelve hour shift nursing job that I was able to pick up extra shifts.

Wow. Okay. So 37 months ago, you guys are pretty normal as far as America goes. You had all the car payments, student loans.

Actually, it started like, 14 years ago. My brother Richard got us two of the financial piece dvd's. We watched them, we started budgeting, but we didn't change any of our behavior.

So we just felt like, oh, that was fun. That was cool.

We were actually just recording what we. The stupid stuff we were doing.

He thought it was like a cool.

Movie because he didn't get you all the dvd's. He just got you two. You're like baby step four and just left you hanging.

Hanging.

That's right.

Wow. Okay. So 37 months ago, you were like, hey, remember that Dave Ramsey guy? Maybe we should go back to that. Is that what happened?

Yeah. So she was starting a new job, and we were like, we make too much money to continue to live paycheck to paycheck, and knew something had changed.

Absolutely.

So were you both on board from the start? I mean, you're like, all right, we're selling all the cars. What? On board first, like, who dragged who into it?

He's the. The spreadsheet guru. And so he would make the spreadsheet. We would do the zero dollar budget. I would make the grocery list, I guess. And we would do rice and beans. Not literally, but we dwindled down the grocery list.

So you brought your lifestyle down to nothing, and you were willing to go, like, all these toys that we've acquired, that we love, that have all these payments attached, we are going to sell them.

I was very resistant to getting rid of my car, but because he got rid of his truck, I said, okay, I'll do it.

Was this like, well, if you do it, I'll do it, or no, no.

But the biggest thing for me was the $8,000 discover credit card that was in my name only. Once that got paid off, I was. I was whole hog, basically. I was like, okay, well, if that got paid off under my name, then I can do this.

And so you needed a quick win to go. This is possible for us. That's the power of the debt. Snowball and baby step two.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And we didn't sell our vehicles until a year in. So, in fact, the first year, we didn't even keep track of how much debt we were paying off. In fact, it was November that year. I was like, hey, I should probably check this out and see how much I've actually paid off. And we realized that kind of just doing it partially, I mean, not really being intense about it. We paid off $55,000 in that first year, and I was like, whoa.

And that was basically, like, haphazardly. What if we actually really paid attention and how to go, yeah.

Wow. So January that next year, we led our first FPU class and sold my truck. And then this.

Is that your church?

This is another church we've actually led two other times in last, last.

That was our second class. The first class we did was our small group at our church.

Oh, that's cool.

Yeah.

Wow. So does your, does your, like, congregation know about this journey? Yeah, they're in on it and they're, like, cheering you guys on.

Yeah, most definitely.

That's fun. Yeah, we like to see a pastor live it out and go, oh, this guy's really doing it.

Yeah, it's crazy. So I've been preaching for probably 14 years now, and it, it's changed how I approach money and talk about money. Like, before, I was, you know, scared to talk about that. Like, I was like, oh, this subject I want to talk about in front of the congregation because I was just being poor with it.

Well, you had your own shame around it.

Exactly, exactly. And so, you know, it's, it's helped us getting our finances in order, has helped us be able to share the truth of God's word freely when it.

Comes to money, if you're okay and you can just say, we don't want to talk about this. You just have to do that in front of a whole bunch of people, both of you. The last few years, just the healthcare profession has shifted and changed, and it's just gotten tough on a thousand different fronts.

Absolutely.

There's something about going to work every day where you are doing the best you can as a pastor, and somebody's going to write you an email, somebody's going to complain, somebody's going to say something that breaks your heart because you really were doing your best that day. And this person really goes, there has to be some kind of freedom that, heaven forbid, if you, either one of you just says, I'm enough, that you're okay, right? And when I've worked with pastors, I've worked with people in the medical profession, there's that angst that I owe so much. It took me so much money to get here. I had to get a doctorate in theology or I had to get medical school. By the time I get here, I am stuck doing this thing, which means I got to play by all these rules. Whether I agree with them or love them or can even stomach them at all, both of y'all are completely free now. What does that feel like?

It's such a burden just off our shoulders.

It's still surreal. I still don't know how to live.

Yeah, it's like getting off a boat all day. You're back on land and it's still kind of wobbly.

Yeah.

Wow. What's next for you guys?

So we're going to celebrate in Cancun. So, yeah, we're looking forward to it.

We've neglected vacations because of this. And then next is obviously our house.

Oh, that's next up.

Rumor has it that if you say no to some things and pay off debts, your kids will evaporate. But I see your son.

He's still here. He has. He has. He has been told no with some things.

And he survived. You made it, Kim. Yeah, he survived. Wow.

How old is Kam, Kira?

He's twelve.

Okay. And he got to see mom and dad hustle and sacrifice to give him a better life, to leave a legacy, to see mom and dad.

Let's stress that we weren't taught as young un's.

We want to change that. And so we involved him as much as we could. And we actually have a sheet that we had up on the refrigerator that had all of our debts listed. And we started with just our debts, but then when we got to our end, we had to go to every thousand dollars, just kind of keep us going because it was two student loans that were huge. And so, like, we were like, hey, we gotta have something. And so every. Every thousand dollars he would mark off, and that was his part of it. And, wow.

So, well, we're gonna celebrate with you guys. We got two everydollar premium gift cards that you can use. You can give them away just to say thank you for visiting us and to cheer you on the journey. You guys ready? All right, we got Thomas, Suzanne and Camden from Raleigh, North Carolina. $167,000 paid off in 37 months. They sold the motorcycle, they sold the suv. They sold the truck. Making 113 to 133. Count it down. Let's hear a debt free scream.

Three, two, one.

We're debt free. Nothing like it.

John, can I tell you, I would love to go into a hospital. And be served by somebody who doesn't owe any money. Who can focus on me. I'd love to walk into a church and have a pastor that is beholden only to God and what's right. Not to the whims. Because he's no lender.

Living in their head rent free.

I love it. I love it. I love it. Man, what a gift. Y'all are amazing. Good folks. We'll be right back. Welcome back. This is the Ramsay show. Today's scripture of the day is proverbs 1211. Those who work their land will have abundant food. But those who chase fantasies have no sense. Ross Simmons says hustle beats talent. When talent doesn't hustle.

That's how I've lived my life. John.

I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true at all. I think you should pay close attention to this Ross Simmons quote.

Fair point.

Fair point.

I'm more of a proverbs guy myself.

I see what you did there. Let's go out to Indianapolis and talk to Mona. Not Lisa. Just Mona. Hey, Mona. What's up?

Hi.

Thanks for your help today.

You got it. What's going on?

My mom and dad, my elderly mom parents are moving in with me and my husband. And they are giving us a lump sum to take care of them for whatever the remainder of their life will be. And we've got a contract. Everything's written up. But I want to make sure that the lump sum is not taxable on either part. Either side?

Yes. Well, when it comes to gifts, which this would be considered a gift. The donor is generally responsible for paying the gift tax. And so, you know, if you look at the exclusions for the year, this year it's 18,000. So each parent could give you 18,000, which would be 36. So that what they could do is split it up over three years. What is the urgency to give you all 100,000 at once?

Not to sit down every month and say, here's your rent. We don't want to, like, talk about the finances every month. And they're going to come with absolutely no bills. They're not going to pay our electric or anything like that. So.

Okay.

Can I tell you what I would do, Mona?

Why don't you just take control of their, you know, you have access to the checking account and you're covering the bills from their account going to you.

So even though they're giving me the 100 and it's actually for their expenses, I mean, they'll never have rent or anything. It's still the 18. You could still only do 18,000. That's still considered a gift.

18,000 from each parent.

Because I was just going to say, the services that I'm rendering, like, they're not going to have to drive anymore. They're not going to have to shop anymore.

I know, but you're doing this. You're doing this the most complicated way possible.

Okay.

Like, why wouldn't you, like, not have them not give you. Yeah. There other siblings that are gonna take their money?

No, there's other siblings involved, but they're the ones that came up with this idea.

I would rather you take guardianship of their checking account and you withdraw expenses as needed.

Okay.

And if they don't trust you, because. Because here's the deal. Let's say that the hundred grand runs out in two years and they're still around. Are they? Are you just not going to get any more money?

Yeah, we haven't thought that one through.

I would rather you.

How old are they?

Yeah, they're 80 and 87, but my 80 year old mother, her mother is still alive and she's 100.

That's what I'm saying. Like, what's the long term game plan?

Yeah.

Are you guys okay to just take care of them forever?

We were just gonna do 100,000 and. And look at it like, you know, whatever, however long they live, we would take care of them if they had no money. So we were just going to do it this way.

I would rather you have access to their checking account and you need this.

Money to cover any bills right now. Like, what if you just left?

Okay, well, we don't split it up when they pass away.

I'd rather them just invest this money if they don't need it, and that hundred thousand in seven years turns into 200,000 and it becomes an inheritance that one day you guys get blessed with.

Yeah, and I already am on their checking account. I haven't done anything yet, but they put me on it years ago.

I would much rather. You'll have a contract that said, we'll pay you $1,000, or we're advising you to withdraw fifteen hundred dollars a month or whatever for groceries and gas and like, this, this rent, and you just pull it out that way. It's. It's not taxable that way.

Okay.

It's just paying for expenses that are their. Expenses that they're accruing because. Yeah, you're right. There may be 20 more years.

Yeah.

And there's also a life. I would taxes. The taxes are the, you know, don't worry about.

My mom's going to outlive him.

So I believe it. And so we just need a long term game plan. It sounds like you guys are financially secure.

You get.

Do you guys have any debt?

We don't. And we've got our house paid off.

It's amazing.

You're just for this moment listening to Dave since 2008.

Bless you.

And it's worked out. So here's the deal. I would just invest that money and invest it wisely. And when they pass one day, that could be 25 years from now, then that'll just be part of an inheritance and it'll, you know, it'll all shake out. But I don't think we need to play this weird monopoly money game where you take money from them every month and they manage. You guys manage because you guys don't need the money.

And can I tell you what I think would happen, Mona? This is me being. Being honest. I think if you take a hundred thousand dollars from them, this relationship gets real transactional real fast and they start looking at you.

It's weird on my. Even on my part.

Well, they start looking at you as though, no, no, no, no. We paid you. You're gonna do this.

Yeah.

And you're gonna do this. You're gonna do this. I would much rather manage their checking account through you and they just live in your house.

It sounds like they're feeling kind of guilty about this. And this money is a way of them saying, well, we gave them money.

Actually, I think. Tell me if I'm wrong. I think brother and sister, or I think siblings came up with this idea because they feel bad that you're taking the burden.

Yes. My parents came up with it too, because some of their friends are broke now and they've been in like, a nursing home for two years and it ate up $100,127 on one of their friends.

Okay.

Yeah. So I would only use that money if you need to in order to take care of your parents because you guys don't have the funds to do so. I hope that never happens. I hope this money just becomes a legacy that they get to leave.

And if you and your. And your siblings need to feel. If they feel like. If y'all feel like you're owed extra money, if you will, for the service, quote unquote, services rendered. Because mom moved in with you guys or mom and dad moved in with you. Y'all drove him around for a. Whatever. Split that up during the inheritance with whatever's left, but let your mom and dad spend their money while they're still alive.

Okay. That's a good idea, too. Thank you. I appreciate it.

You bet.

John's full of a lot of things. Good ideas is one of them.

Occasionally. Occasionally just one of the things.

Producer Kelly Daniels shaking her head. Yes, absolutely.

Let's go out to Los Angeles, California. Kelly, we're up against a clock for the last call of the day. What's going on?

Hi, George. Hi, John. Yeah, hi. So I'm 47. I'm on baby step six. I'm living in a town down here in southern California that I've never really been happy with, and I have the opportunity to move. My job is 300 miles away from here, and it's a farm property that's my business, and it's owned by my mother. I have an opportunity to move there and live basically rent free. But I'm emotionally attached to this house here. I've lived here for three years. Like I said, it's in an area that I don't want to live in. I don't want to end up here. But the actual house, I love it, and I don't know how to, like, emotionally tear myself away from this property.

Why are you so. Why are you so emotionally invested in this home?

I don't know. I don't know.

Just a bunch of studs and some drywall.

What did it mean to you? Did you move there after a divorce? Did somebody pass away? That. What does it mean to you?

Oh, that's good. Yeah. It is kind of part of a divorce and part of the autonomy that, you know, I bought this house all on my own after my divorce.

There it is.

Yeah.

So here's what I want you to do. I want you to write, this is going to sound cheesy and lame. There's going to be millions of people across the country who roll their eyes at this, but I'm just talking to you. I want you to write a thank you letter, a letter of gratitude to this home. And I want you to read it out loud in your living room.

Yeah.

Cause this home was there for you when nobody else was, right.

Yeah.

And it served a purpose, and it gave you a roof over your head, and it gave you some security and comfort when your whole world fell apart. And we're really grateful for that house. And now we're gonna go live the rest of our life. Cause we're back on our feet again.

Yeah.

Can you build a new dream home on the farm one day?

I definitely can. And, in fact, my dad started it, and then he passed away, and so it. It's so close to being done.

Go get it. Go get it.

Kelly. That's your new emotional attachment. That should be your new thing you get excited about working on.

George is big on transference. Just move your emotional attachment for me. Don't deal with it. Just move it over there. I think that's fantastic.

But I'm selling the house and starting a new life on the farm.

Absolutely. Thanks for the call, Kelly. All right, let's thanks everybody in the booth, including Kelly, sitting in for the one and only James Childs. Great show, George. And thank you, America, for listening and hanging out with us. We'll be back soon on the Ramsey show.

Doctor John Deloney here. Mental and emotional health challenges, broken relationships. It's all just part of life. But they don't have to define you. The Doctor John Deloney show is here to help. It's a collar driven podcast where you can get practical advice on dealing with anxiety, loneliness, depression, relationship challenges, your kids, and so much more. Listen to questions from our callers, or if you're walking through a tough situation and need some help, give me a call. You were never meant to do life alone, and that's what this podcast is all about. Follow along on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or the Ramsey Network app. Remember, you're worth being well.