Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, joined by the one, the only, Dr. John Deloney. We're here to serve you, to help you take the right next step for your life and your money. The way you interact with the show is you call us at the number, 888-825-5225. If you should be so lucky, our phone screener, Christian, will let you through the lines You will have the privilege, the honor of talking to Dr. John Deloney. May the odds be ever in your favor. There you go. Hannah's kicking us off in Atlanta, Georgia. Hannah, welcome to The Ramsey Show.

Hey, Hey, thank you so much for taking my call.

Absolutely. What's going on?

I was in a toxic relationship and ended up getting divorced. Me and my ex-husband had a few car loans, and we had an apartment together. Once the divorce or during going through the divorce, I ended up losing my job. With that, I ended up losing my apartment that I had, and I also ended up losing one of my cars. I have one collection that That equals about 3,000. I have a car repo that's about 12,000. We did have a car loan that was joint together, and I just found out recently that the car loan that we had together has also been repowed. I have about $55,000 in debt. 52,000 of it is in repo, three in collections. I don't know what to do, if I should file bankruptcy or what steps I need to do.

Sorry. This is like a terrible country song. Just one thing after another. Are you back to work now?

I am. Thank God. I have a job, and I'm making about $2,500 a month.

Okay. Do you have any kids?

I do not.

Okay.

What job are you doing making $2,500 a month?

I actually work in a dental office. I'm just one of the receptionists there.

Okay. Is that enough to pay your bills?

Luckily, I live with one of my friends, so my rent is not that expensive. I pay about $800 in rent.

Okay. Both George and I, George is going to walk you through the math of all this, but both him and I, I know there's a season when you just get beat up and beat up and beat up and beat up and the smoke clears and all that. I get that. But I want more than just $2,500 a month and you rent a room from a friend for your life. I have a bigger vision for you than that, okay?

Mm-hmm.

We'll talk to how to get different kinds of work or expand that, but 2,500 bucks, man, that's got scratching by these days.

I actually am in college right now because of all of this, I needed a better life for myself. I'm actually in school right now.

Good for you.

I'm going to be a nurse.

Good. Okay, amazing. Then I take back everything I just said. Good on you. You're incredible. That's awesome.

Are you working full-time while doing nursing school?

Yes, I am.

Wow. Good deal.

Okay, so we make 2,500 bucks a month. You have a car now?

I do. I paid cash for it.

Okay. You owe nothing else except for the 52 in repo, 3,000 in collections. Was the 3,000 in collections for a car? What was that for?

That was for the apartment that we had. During the divorce, I actually ended up losing the apartment because I lost my job. I couldn't pay for it.

Okay, so this is like the eviction settlement, miss payments, breaking the all that? Yeah. Okay. Well, the good news is you have a place to lay your head that's safe and affordable. You have a car to get you to and from work. You have work. There's a lot of good things happening after what you've just experienced, which is straight up hell. Yeah. How much money do you have right now left over after you pay your bills? Every single month?

I was doing the math last night after my expenses because I am paying for college myself, so I'm not taking out any student loans. After all of my expenses, I have about $300 left every month.

Okay. You could start attacking these debts with. How much is school costing you? How are you able to cash flow nursing school?

Well, I am going to a technical college, so it's about maybe $1,500 every semester. But I'm just saving as much as I can a month to go towards that, so I don't have to take out any student loans.

Hannah, for the repos, did both of those happen in Georgia? Yes. Okay. When they get repowed, whoever repossesses the cars, the person who holds the title, sells those cars. What he sells or she sells that car for goes against the note. You don't owe $53,000 on those two cars.

You owe the deficiency balance.

They should have sent you a number saying, Here's what you owe us now that we have sold these cars for X number of dollars. Now, it wouldn't surprise me if they sold those cars to their buddy for an insanely low deal. I don't know how that all works, but you should not owe the total balance of $53,000.

Okay.

Have you been in contact with the repo, folks?

No, actually, the only way I found out about this was I just pulled up my credit card and saw that the account was closed. I contacted the lender, and that's when I found out that it had been repossessed.

Well, in some of these that get repossessed, if they sell the car and the price they fetch is higher than what you owe on it, they actually owe you that money back or have some split depending on what state you're in. I can imagine if they sold a $20,000 car and you owed 18, that they just kept that $2,000 and just didn't call you yet.

Do you have any communication with your ex?

I don't. No. He has me blocked on everything. I can't contact him at all.

Okay. Have you let them know that this debt is partially with an ex that you have no contact with?

Yes. Okay.

I would be proactive in talking to them. I don't want them coming after you because you've been ignoring them. I want them to know you by name going, Hey, she calls every week just updating us. Here's what I can pay. Here's where things are at. Here's my plan. I would work on getting on some payment plan with them just to show that you're making effort to pay this off. Then, like John said, once you know the exact amount that you owe, now we can make a plan to say, How can we negotiate this? Can we get a lump sum saved up? How do we attack this so that we can get this out of your life and have you move on. But the only way out of this thing is to get rid of this debt off your record and out of your life.

Hannah, please, please, please don't file bankruptcy. You're nowhere near that case. Okay? Please don't do that.

That was the thing I didn't know if I should or what direction I should go in.

We've seen worse situations.

Way worse.

We still didn't tell them to file bankruptcy. There is hope for you yet. The key here is it's hard because you're in school. You're not going to be able to take on extra side hustles and get your income up while you're in school. How long until you're out of school and working?

I've only been in school. It's a year now. This is my second semester.

How long is the program?

A bachelor degree for nursing is four years.

Okay, so you could foreseeably be doing this for a while, living this life where you're trying to work full-time, school full-time, and trying to tackle the debt?

Yeah.

Okay. I've done that. I've done it, and it's not fun, but it's definitely doable. Okay? We 100% believe in you, but don't take... What I don't want you to do is I don't want you to take the pain of this divorce and then spread it over the next seven years with a bankruptcy on top of it. You've been through enough hurt.

Don't do that. Hang on a line, Hannah. I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke, as well as Financial Peace University. We want to walk with you as you climb out of this hole and start whatever's next for Hannah. We are cheering you on. This is the Ramsey Show. Here's a quick math refresher. There are only 24 hours in a day, so your business needs to stream timeline tasks that are time suckers and focus on activities that make money. To reduce headaches as they scale, smart businesses use NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud financial system. Netsuite helps you improve efficiency by bringing all your major business processes into one platform. Join the more than 37,000 smart businesses like Ramsey Solutions that have done the math and graduated to NetSuite. Right now, you can download NetSuite's KPI checklist absolutely free at netsuite.

Com/ramsey.

That's netsuite. Com/ramsey. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Listen, selling the house the Ramsey Way makes homeownership a blessing instead of a burden. The Ramsey Trusted program is the only way to find an agent that you can trust to keep you on track with what we teach here on The Ramsey Show and get the best offer for your house or find the right house for you. We're going to send you some of the top agents in your area who we trust. We vet them, and you get to review their stats, you get to interview them, you decide which one you want to work with. And these agents have years of experience. They're pros. They've sold a lot of houses. They know what they're doing. They're going to help you make those decisions when it comes to pricing and marketing and making or choosing the right offer. So go ahead and find a Ramsey-trusted real estate agent for free at ramseysolutions. Com/agent. All right, let's head out to Philadelphia up next. We've got Jessica there. How's it going, Jessica?

Hi, George. Hi, Dr. John. It's great to talk to you.

It's even better to talk to you. How's it going?

Well, here's my question. Would it be beneficial to pause Baby Step Two for about two months in order to cash flow attending the Money and marriage conference in February?

That's a loaded question.

Sophie's choice. I have my answer. What's the state of your marriage?

It's a really good marriage. We have four kids. Three of them are teenagers. One almost is a teenager. We're really busy with that.

My husband's an elementary school principal. The last four years have been really crazy with his job.

He's also in grad school right now, going for his doctorate in education. So we're busy. When I hear the Money and Marriage Conference being advertised, I'm like, I want to do that. I want to go with him and just invest in our marriage. I think it would be really awesome. We've started the Dave Ramsey plan about a year ago. Now, which was a month after buying a car and financing half of it.

Oh, boy. How far away from becoming debt-free?

We should be in beginning of Baby Step 3, in March of '25, if we didn't do the conference. It would put us on hold by about two months.

Well, here's the good news. It's not the first or last time we're going to do this thing. I could get fired at any moment. Yeah, that's true. Jessica, if you were my friend, and if it was any other event, I'm going to tell you, don't do this right now. I think John was saying, Hey, is this on fire? Like, your marriage is more important than anything. If this is the one thing that's going to save the sinking ship, then we would say, All right, this is worth saving your marriage over. But this is not a crisis situation. This is a luxury to travel, to get lodging and transportation, and go have fun for a weekend. I would tell you to just pause and join us for the next one when you're able to cash flow it and out of debt.

But I will tell you this. I don't think it's been announced yet, so I'm going to get your number Or your email address. You know the one in October is sold out. If you do want to come, it's ramsey solutions. Com/eventsandmoneymarriage. We opened up a new one in February for Valentine's weekend. It's going to be amazing. But there will be a Money Marriage live stream that we follow up the October one with, and I'll hook you up with that, okay?

Oh, that's kind.

Oh, that would be amazing. So you all can watch it at home. It's not going to be as cool as the one here, but it's going to be amazing. It's going to be a totally different. It's going to be me and Rachel, and it will be Awesome. Hang on the line. And I don't even think we've announced this yet, so I may have just completely messed up everything with live events. If I have, I did just mess it up.

Kelly's saying it's been announced.

Kelly's just telling me, you're fired. She's mouthing, you're fired. It's okay. It's all right. So, Jessica, we got you covered. So hang on the line here and we'll send you the... We'll get you hooked up with a free live stream. That's awesome.

What a great pitch that we did not pay for for the money in marriage event. So thank you for that, Jessica. Check that one-off the list.

I know. It's tough for me because I want everyone to come because I know it's good. And also, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it.

You got priorities right now. That's right. So that's good. Thank you for that. James is up next in Allentown, Pennsylvania. What's going on, James?

Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

You got it. What's up, man?

I am pretty new to the Ramsey show. I am looking to buy a car, which I have enough for in cash, but I have no real credit built up. I've had a credit card for about a year. I've only gotten gas and maybe some dinner a couple of times with it. But I'm worried about if I don't ever build real credit, I'm worried about future mortgages and stuff like that, and I'm looking to see what I should do.

You're going to play a game with us? Yeah. Okay. Guess mine or George's credit score. Ready? Go.

Zero.

Ta-da. Zero.

Well, you know what's funny? You know the reason people want a good credit score? So they can afford the financing of the vehicle. You've already achieved that. You've transcended the need for a credit score. You have the cash to pay for it. I will address the real fear that people have when it comes to buying a house because they go, Well, the mortgage company is not going to let me just get a mortgage if there's no credit history. There's this thing out there called manual underwriting. It's not done a whole lot because America is obsessed with debt, and so everyone just has a credit score. And this is the process I went through in 2019 to buy a house. I didn't have a credit score. They said, All right, you can do a no-score loan through manual underwriting. We're going to look at your tax return, your income history, bank statements, and then a real person says, All right, George is qualified for this mortgage. So you're going to be able to do the same exact thing. Our friends at Churchill Mortgage, they've been doing this for decades. They're the experts in this field when it comes to no-score loans.

And that truly is the only reason I can think of where it's a valid point to go, All right, I might need a credit score here. And even then, there's a way around it. Okay. How does that hit you?

It's a relief. I didn't want to have to finance anything. I'm really looking forward to staying debt-free for the rest of my life. Beautiful.

What car are you buying?

There's a way around it. Nissan Ultima.

Nice. And how much cash you have saved up?

A little over 30,000.

Whoa, that's incredible.

How long did that take I don't really spend much, so it's just been saving for ever. I love it. So it's been 20 years.

James, you just said something that I think is important for us to double-click on.

What's that?

Buying a house and using a mortgage, using a manual underwriting, that's not actually the way around it. That's actually the thing that makes the most sense. The way around not having enough money or not being in a position where you have any business buying a house, that is where a credit score comes in. That's actually the hack. Because if you have cash, you just buy it. If you pay your bills on time and you've got enough money and you can prove, Here's my job. That's what manual unwriting, they're just going to come check out your life and make sure you can actually afford what you're about to do. That's just a straightforward path. We've created We started taking an exit around the actual anything that makes sense, and now that's become so normal. You just see everybody exiting, so everybody just exits. It really clears up the lanes in front of you. But the path should be, can you afford this or not? If you can, and the only way we tell you to borrow money is with a mortgage, do you have a life that makes this mortgage for as few years as possible as it's going to be in your life?

Do you have a life that can sustain this mortgage? That's not the weird thing. The weird is having to get this proxy to be like, No, we've looked at all the other places he borrows money, and he's pretty good with it. We're going to give him a triple stamp and double stamp it.

Not his first rodeo at not being able to afford things.

Yeah, he never can afford things, and he always figures out a way to pay little bits and pieces of the things he can't afford, so he's good to buy your house. You see what I'm saying? You're doing it the right way.

All right.

Just the chaotic way. Just some encouragement for you.

We live in a- Yeah, that's the weird part is that it's so normal now to be broke and to have to navigate this stupid broken financial system that when you do it any other way, people look at you funny. I guarantee, James, when you go to the car dealership and you go, Oh, no, I don't need to go to the financing office. I'm just going to write you a check. They're going to be like, What? They're going to try to convince you that you should finance it anyways.

They made me go. I walked in and said, The second time I bought a car, the first time my kids were with me, it was a disaster. The second time I said, I work for Dave Ramsey. I'm on the air for The Ramsey Show. I'm going to write a check. The The salesman was amazing, but he goes, Dude, I hate to do this, but they're going to call you. They're at least going to call you. I was like, Okay. It just can't not. They can't not. They're going to try to sell it.

We say that be careful when you step foot on that dealership, wherever you're buying the car from, do your due diligence. Don't let them talk you into anything.

They're going to make you feel stupid, out of touch, you're dumb. Oh, you're one of those idiots that listens to that show, and you're like, No, I'm one of those idiots that sleeps all night.

They might even offer you a discount for financing with them. Don't take the bait. They are in the business of making money. Cars are quite literally the vehicle they use to lend money. That's it. That's how it goes. James, hang on the line. I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. I want you to read the credit scores chapter because I think it will make you have an even worse taste in your mouth towards the system and help you overcome it. This is the Ramsey Show. I've got some good news and some bad news.

The good news is that people have started buying life insurance to protect their families at levels not seen since the 1980s.

The bad news is many of them are still buying crappy cash value type plans. I don't care what you call them, whole life, universal, variable, adjustable, flexible.

They're nothing but a waste of your money.

Don't be confused and let someone sell you a plan that sounds better than it really is. Look, term life is the only way to go. Rates are back to all time lows, and the process to apply is easier than ever with many companies no longer requiring exams. You need to protect your family and use your money for much smarter things than investing in a rip-off cash value insurance policy. Go to zander. Com or call 800-356-4282 and just compare pricing. You'll see why these are the only plans I recommend. Take care of your family and do it in a smarter way. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. The phone number is 888-825-5225. I'm George Campbell, joined by the host of the Dr. John Deloney Show, Dr. John Deloney. We've got tons of shows on the Ramsey Network, including that one, so be sure to check them out. If you're enjoying this one, it's on podcast, YouTube, wherever you like to hang out. Kevin is up next in Seattle, Washington. Kevin, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. Sure. I need help. I am debt-free, which I'm extremely excited about. I discovered Ramsey Solutions about probably a a year, a year and a half ago, and really dove in. It made me feel good that I felt like I had been living the Ramsey Solutions lifestyle for my entire adult life without even knowing it.

You're like, I'm not the only crazy person out here who's like, I don't want to have payments.

Right.

Or more realistically, somebody taught you common sense.

Well, yeah. When I graduated college, I was just I was shy of 70,000 in student loans. So I immediately out of college, my focus was to pay off the student loans. My goal was get that done when I was 30. I managed to pull it off just before my 29th birthday. And from there, I purchased a house with a mortgage. I didn't really have much money saved up at that point. And then spent my 30s focusing. I had a couple of roommates in and out and just picking up side jobs and focused on trying to pay my mortgage off as fast as Fast forward another 10 years, I ended up selling that house when it was really close to being paid off, put that money into an IRA. Things are going great. I've moved closer to family. I don't currently own a house right now, so I don't have a mortgage. I'm renting just to make sure that this is the place I want to be, and I like the job and everything. So the biggest challenge, and I'm starting to realize it more and more as I get older, is that I've been doing the track every dollar I've been living the Ramsey's solutions life for so long that it feels that it's turned into an obsession or an addiction or it's taken over my life.

I realized that I'm in a much better situation than a lot of people, and I don't take that for granted, but I feel like I'm struggling by not being able to spend money. I know that probably sounds twice as crazy.

No. What you're experiencing is surprisingly, I don't want to say it's common, but it's not rare that this identity takes over. I guess as someone who is on the inside of this thing, me and George actually stir the Kool-Aid before we send it out to you guys. Probably the top three most expensive meals I've ever eaten in my life were with Dave. Ramsey is not about not spending money and not about buying really nice things and not about having amazing dinners and experiences with your friends. It's about making sure that you're a person of generosity and that you can afford these things.

You can. How do you I think it's almost turned into fear because like I said, when I graduated college, I just needed to pay off the student loans. That's where every dollar went. Then once that was done, then it was a mortgage, and I only focused on that. Then the fear was always not being able to do that.

What was money like growing up for you?

Probably lower middle class. It never went without, but just We were just happy and everything seemed fine.

If you're a lower middle class, there was a tension in your home that was palpable. I guarantee you. Whether you knew it to be that or not, if you're lower middle class, things are tight all the time.

Yeah. We were happy, but it was definitely tight. There you go.

My guess is that's wired into your nervous system.

How How do I break... Being 45 years old now and- Ancient.

I can write everything down on a piece of paper, and I can be like, I'm going to be okay.

But I can't convince myself.

Can I tell you a It's not a trick. It's just a path. But I want you to know you're not crazy. I grew up in that was very similar, lower middle class. Things were scary. My dad never said, We're broke and we're poor. He never said that. But when I would say, Hey, I'm out of deodorant, I could see him wince. When I went to get seconds and there was very little food, I would just exhale. I caught it. It was a part of me. Now my life is very, very different. Recently, my family's moving. I told my son, who's 14, I told him, I have this weird gnawn pit in my stomach now. He said, Why? I told him, because it's still wired into me that everything goes away. Here's what I want to tell you. You cannot outthink this. One of the great modern lies of the modern mental health movement is that you can become mentally okay. You can become mentally and emotionally well by just sitting around thinking about stuff. That's just not true. You have to act differently. What does that mean for you? You have to choose to stop ruminating.

When your mind starts spinning and spinning and your heart rate starts going up and going up and going up, you have to choose to say, I know what you're doing. You're trying to protect me, body. I'm all good. Then you have to think of something else. You have to choose that. It's the same thing I tell a parent who's lost a child. Often that picture, that last picture of the kid in the funeral home, will just lightning bolt into their mind. They get to choose from that moment forward, are you going to meditate on this picture and think about it and have your body just go back to that spot? Or are you going to exhale and then immediately replace that picture with little kid on the big wheel? You get to choose that. Here's the second You have to build into your budget giving and spending. You're going to have to practice this new way of being. Dave has taught me to really look at the ratios because my nervous system can't handle the life I have now compared to the life I grew up with. So I simply have to look at the ratios.

Do I have enough money for X, Y, and Z? Yep, I do. Okay, cool. Then I'm going to give this much away. Dude, it is like,. But you exhale. Then I'm going to buy this for my wife because I love her. Comparatively, it's less than 0.000% of my networth. I'm going to buy it. I practice, and I practice, and I promise you it gets easier.

Are you single, Kevin? I need to get over it.

I am, yeah. No, no, no.

Don't get over it. Don't get over it. Go right through it.

What we're saying is in that every dollar budget, you're going to force yourself to give more than you ever have, and you're going to force yourself to spend more than you ever have, and you're going to find a new hobby, and you're going to pour some money into that and start to see what that feels like. Over time, that will become normal. That's a normal part of the budget. That's what I want. Kevin gives more. That's what I want. Kevin spends more because you're great at saving. We got that dialed down. Right now, we have a flat tire, so we need to inflate the other parts of our life artificially right now by forcing it in the budget. It's total artificial. Until it becomes, Oh, you know what? I enjoy golf. I'm willing to spend 200 bucks a month on this hobby over here.

Let me challenge you on the giving part. I want you to tie or do whatever your faith tradition practice tells to do. But I want you to, when I talk about giving, I want when you go out to eat, I want you to find a bus boy who's cleaning up tables and just scrubbing and scrubbing, going from table to table to table. Walk over and put your hand on that guy's shoulder and he'll turn around. Because most people walk past that guy every day, they don't even look at him as though he's a human. I want you to stop and I want you to hand him $100 bill and say, I see how hard you're working. I'm really grateful for you. We just watch his eyes. Or go to Waffle House and tip the waiter 200 bucks on a $20 plate of diabetes. And dude, they will follow you out in the parking lot and they'll hug you because you just paid their electric bill and their water bill and whatever was You see what I'm saying? You will experience generosity.

And watch what happens to your body. You're going to feel more joy than you have in a long time. Because truthfully, there's very little joy in saving and investing. There's more joy in spending, but there is way more joy in giving. I think that's going to unlock to make something for you, Kevin, as you start to do this.

I want you to... You're changing your identity, so I want you to write down on a piece of paper, I am so-and-so, and I'm a person who is a good steward. I give. I'm so-and-so, I'm a person who has a good time with my money. I'm so-and-so, I am smart with my money. And we're going to start from there. We're going to backfill that with habits and make it happen.

This is The Ramsey Show.

This show is sponsored by Betterhelp. Hey, it's Deloney, and you got to be kidding me. 2024 is flying by. So let me ask you, what's something you're proud of so far this year? And what's something you wish you could just stop and collaborate and listen and change direction on? It's important to take a moment to celebrate your wins, and it's also important to make adjustments and make changes when necessary. Therapy can help you take stock of your progress and set achievable goals for the next six months, nine months, and beyond. Therapy is a safe, effective place to learn how to say hard things out loud and to make realistic plans for moving into an unknown future. Personally, I've been blessed to have a great therapist, and you can be blessed with a great therapist, too. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, it's convenient, it's flexible, and it's suited to fit your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapist at any time for no extra money. Take a moment and be intentional for the rest of 2024 with Betterhelp.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. If you are enjoying the show now or anytime, do us a quick favor and hit the like button, hit the follow button, hit the share button, hit the subscribe button, and share this with a friend, a family member, someone who you think could a little positivity, a little hope in their lives and display some of the just trash that's out there. I guess, the candy, just the sweet nothing candy that is the internet.

I don't know. You refer to yourself as the Ramsey eye candy. Some of the candy is all bad.

That's very different, John. That's true. Thank you for reminding America. You're welcome. If they're not watching on YouTube, now is the time to start. There we go. It's open phones at 888-825-5225. Don't be shy. Call us. We'll give you our best advice, and sometimes it's not the best. Right, John?

Disagree.

Julie's up next. In Montreal, we're going way north, John. How's it going, Julie?

Hi, I'm good. How are you? Doing great. Julie, we've got some of your closest friends here in the studio from Montreal, from Toronto. Wait, really? Yes, we really do. We're surrounded by Canadians right now. It's one of the nicest warm feelings I've ever had.

Oh, well, thank you so much for taking my call. I love both of you. I watch you religiously.

That's so cool.

Well, what's up?

All right. I'm 27. I'm nitrous. I'm currently doing Baby Step number 2, Giselle Intensity. I'm doing Financial Peace University. If I keep going, I'll be out of debt by August 2025. I listened to that episode that Rachel talks about giving to charity, and she talks about how important it is and how it transforms you across how important it is. I believe in it, but when it comes to the… Right now, I'm making 4,000 a month, and that extra $400, I can't find myself to actually give it away. I'm wondering if it's How wrong it is to not give when you're in baby step two.

I don't like looking at it from a right or wrong moral perspective. Giving has been and always will be a matter of the heart. We've always said, give a little until you can give a lot. Giving is not one of the baby steps until baby step seven, which is choose your own adventure. But in baby step one, give a little, give something. Baby step two, give a little, give something. Once you get out of those steps into baby steps four, five, six, seven, that's where you can really dial it up because you have more margin. Right now, you're saying $400, is that 10% or are you saying $400 is how much you can throw with the debt?

That would be 10% of- Is that what your church is asking of you? No, but in your budget, you say give 10% of your income.

Okay. I We've just done that. Well, it's coming from Rachel's perspective, and she's a Christian, and so tithing 10% is built into her spiritual practice, into her faith practice. If you can't breathe If you can't eat, then I want you to be well and whole. I think what George is getting at is it's an ethos. It's a way of being. Does that make sense? If you can't get $400, don't get $400 today. But I do want you to pick up somebody's gas at a gas station. I do want you to put into your budget, I'm going to give $35, I'm going to give 50 bucks away. I'll tell you, the more it pinches, the more it becomes a part of you, the more it hurts, if you will. But giving to where you walk around with your eyes open and you get your eyes out of your belly button. Our whole world is forcing us, not forcing us, our whole world encourages us to walk around staring at our own navels and wondering, how do we feel? What do we feel? How do we feel and how do we feel? Giving helps you look up and see humanity, see your neighbor, see that person who doesn't have what you have.

It gives you perspective on your own life. It gives you perspective on your own challenges. You get to see in real-time, Oh, I don't have to wait for somebody in some government house to solve the world's problem. I can be a part of this, too. I see you, neighbor, and I'm going to help you out. It's an ethos. It's way less a math problem. Even inside the Christian faith, there's people who 10% gross, 10%... It's going to be a question that you have to answer for yourself when you sit down a budget. But yeah, I'm with George, man. Make it a part of who you are.

And make it fun. It feels like right now you got to hit a quota. I just want you to have that spontaneous spirit like John saying. I have a line item in my budget just called bless up, and we just set aside a little bit of money, and whoever sees an opportunity, we just get to give. Maybe that's how you start to frame it up. Instead of a certain percentage, you just say, Here's how much I'm able to do this month. Here's how much I'm willing to do, and you just make it fun and you make it matter. I think that will unlock something in you. And guess what? A year from now, you're going to be in a different place. So this is not a life sentence. I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself to do a certain thing a certain way.

Does that give you some peace?

Yeah, that definitely helps. Thank you.

Okay.

Absolutely. All right. It's a great question.

I love the spirit of it. The fact you're even asking this tells me that you're going to be a very generous person. If you're even struggling with it, I'm like, I want to, but it's hard. Better than, I don't even understand why the heck would you even do that? All right, John, is that up next in Des Moines, or as some of my friends call it, Des Moines? One of your friends does. One of my favorites. John, what's happening And then- Hey, George and John, thanks for taking my call.

Yeah, what's going on? What's up?

Well, to keep it straightforward, my wife and I, we're receiving pensions that meet all of our family's living expenses. So is there a need or benefit to still investing in a retirement plan, like a Roth IRA or 401(k)?

I'll tell you what I would do. I would still recommend diversifying away from the pension. There's a few reasons for it. The obvious one is that you don't have any control over the pension, and that if something happens with the company, the pension dies, too, and they perform poorly comparatively to you investing on your own through a 401(k) or an IRA.

Okay. To clarify, so I'm retired military, so I receive a retired pay from the government plus a disability. So I guess if that funding stream stops, I think we're all in a worse way Absolutely.

That would be a scary one. How much is it? Is this enough to sustain for the next foreseeable future, regardless of what happens with your expenses?

Yeah. So between the two of us, we make a little over 10 grand a month in just the disability and retirement pay.

Okay. And what's your life like right now? What's your financial picture? Do you guys have any debt?

We just have the house left. We have about 87,000 left to pay, so another year and a half, and then we'll be completely debt-free.

Amazing. What retirement dreams do you guys have? Have you talked about that?

Well, we're living them as we go. We're just enjoying time. We have two kids, a 9 and 10-year-old, so we're just Getting in that family time when we can, traveling when we can, and then giving our time and money when we can as well, because we're in definitely a blessed situation.

All right, John, I'm going to ask George a question on your behalf. Is that cool?

Yes.

If I was, John, and I was getting $10,000 of a federal pension every month, and I was 18 months away from having my house paid off, I think in my house, we would pause any additional investing and get that sucker off? Because that feels like a liability that doesn't really even need to be there. Is that bad math?

No. I think, truthfully, John, you're going to be okay either way. I just still like, no one's ever complained that they had too much wealth to pass on and leave a legacy with. It doesn't sound like you guys investing 15% of your income would really change your life all that much, but it could change the numbers down the line.

Okay. My wife, she currently stopped contributing to her Roth IRA and 401k, so we can pay off the house and get rid of that liability.

Okay, good deal.

I didn't know if there was a benefit or need for us to actually continue with the retirement accounts, if that's something that we can pass on to our kids or anything like that in the future that we need to think about that I'm not aware of.

Yeah, well, the thing to think about is with a Roth IRA, you need earned income in order to contribute to that. And so while you're working, that's a good thing to use. The 401k is a good thing to use. But again, if this is guaranteed the government forever, you're going to be okay. But I would just rather be diversified and have more options of where I'm pulling from and when with those other retirement opportunities. So thanks for the call. Sounds great. Yeah. Thanks for your service as well. This puts this hour of The Ramsey Show in the Books. I'm George Campbell. He's Dr. John Deloney. We'll be back before you know it. From Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, joined by my good friend Dr. John Deloney, and we're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. We'll do our best to help you take the right next step for your life and your money. Sarah is going to kick us off this hour in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Sarah, welcome to the show. How can we help?

Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call. First of all, I have an opportunity cost question.

Okay, lay it out.

So this The situation is that I'm a cancer patient, and it's metastatic, so I have an 85% chance that I'm going to die within the next five years. Sounds very dramatic, I know. But I also have a very specific life dream. My husband and I, when it comes to the baby steps, I would say that we've really moved into baby step seven, and we had made plans as partners that we were going to now pursue very specific dreams to give back to the community. My dream is to charter a federal credit union. It really requires a specific college degree. With so little time left, I'm debating, is it time to just put that dream on hold because it's going to take a couple of years of college or pursue it so that I can finish strong if these are my last five years, and I really just don't know which direction to go.

For those people who are listening to this going, Wait, what? How is she talking so clearly? You've been wrestling with this for a long time, haven't you?

Yeah, the past year, ever since the diagnosis. Okay.

So is the smoke cleared? Are you still walking around in that shocked phase where everything feels pretty good and it's hard to wrestle with even though it's sitting out there?

I can get I'm emotional from time to time, but I think I know what I want to do. I just need to know which direction to take. I want to, again, make that last... If this is the last chapter of my book, I want it to be a really good chapter. I don't want to rob my husband of our last few years together. I would have to be a full-time student and work full-time. But I also don't want to not do something with my life before I go.

When it comes to price point, we can afford No, it's nothing to do with that. Tell me about your dream of what would... If you had a magic wand and you went on a local park bench and this credit union emerged, what would it be doing for the community?

This federal credit union would be chartered specifically for my Native American tribe to basically… There's just so much poverty and so much lack of both resources and training within in my tribe that I want this federal credit union to give them access to a specific type of loan and the coaching that they need to be successful so that they can begin having that opportunity.

I think that's beautiful. I also think you can accomplish a huge chunk of this. Or let's snap your fingers. You spend five years imagining what life is going to be with your husband. Because here's the deal. You all made plans, and those plans are now over as you knew it. Your marriage as you know it is over. Your life as you knew it was over. Now you all are going to build a new life for the last five years. You care and love for this tribe, and you want to give them resources, you want to give them information, you want to give them coaching. This is just me. I would hate for you to live the last four years of your life taking accounting three, right?

It does sound miserable.

I know it is because I always used to watch my roommates would come home and just stare at a blank wall, right? Here's the thing. If that's what you want to do, Because I'm somebody who loves a college classroom. I love being surrounded by people and arguing and debating ideas and a professor who's walking us. I love that. If you tell me, John, that I've always had this dream, I don't want to go out without an accounting degree. I'll tell you right now, go sign up today. You got four years, go make it happen. I would tell you to go do that. That doesn't sound like your dream. It sounds like that is a step you have to take to create this vision of how am I going to help and love my tribe. I would love to see you just bypass that whole thing and just love your tribe.

Is there a way to accomplish that mission without being a charter of a- Start a weekly class. Credit union? Because if the goal is to give them resources financially, there's all kinds of ways to do that, right?

Set up a program by teaching them how to apply for college, teaching them how to get jobs. You could create an entire ecosystem so that 150 of them can band together and build a whole string of credit unions down the road. One of them will name it after you one day. You see what I'm saying?

Yeah, I hear the direction that you're going with this. Then one of the things that I'm afraid of is how do I get that That investment, that cultural group investment, if I don't have their credentials? Because I don't have a whole lot of charisma either, so I don't think they're just going to sign up. What would be a way to substantiate that reputation?

I disagree with you. I disagree. You do have charisma. I can hear it on the phone.

Well, I talk on the phone for a living.

There you go, right? I You're doubting yourself and you've pigeonholed, The only way I can leave a lasting mark is to create this brick and mortar thing. George and I are telling you- You could start an Instagram account and reach way more of those people this year. Millions of our native friends.

We're just saying, I want you to dream of different ways you can accomplish the mission so that you don't pigeonhole yourself and do, Well, if I don't sit in a classroom for the next four years, this isn't going to happen. Because I think there's more than one way to do this. I also I want you to enjoy, let's say there is five years left. How do you still enjoy time with your husband and still create memories and also accomplish your career dreams? Yeah.

Can I challenge you on something?

Yes.

Do you have kids or just your husband?

No kids. Just the husband. He's an amazing guy, too. One of a kind. It's actually notated in my doctor's notes how much he stood beside me. Definitely a heck of a guy. That's awesome.

If you decide You all two alternate making dinners for each other, and you wake up every morning and watch the sunrise and have coffee together for the next five years and you pass away, that's an extraordinary last chapter. An extraordinary last chapter. I don't want you to conflate a life well-lived with big neon flashing signs that say, I left my mark. Because what you're going to find is, yes, it is cool to put a mark on something. It's cool for me to have a number one best-selling book. But I tell you what, when my son stands up and George, my son's here today, and he's like, Man, he called me. Yes, sir. I'll take that every day of the Week. That comes from having morning breakfast and hanging out and walking alongside and teaching and riding bikes together. I want you to re-imagine what a life to well live looks like in your last chapter. I promise, If you chase some big, huge dramatic thing, it's not going to feel like you think it's going to feel. I want you to be honest about what does a life well-lived look like in the last five years?

You're in this ride or die with your husband. You all sit down together and decide what is this going to look like It might be serving Indigenous people. That's amazing. I love that. But let's serve them in a way that's not going to require you to spend three-fourths of your remaining time in a classroom. Let's figure out other ways to do it because I promise you're smart enough and you are captivating enough to do Best of luck to you. We love you, love you, love you. Call anytime.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. Open phones at 888-825 Today's question from the day, question of the day comes from Zack. From the day. From the day. It's of the day. It comes from Zack in Kansas. What does Zack have to say?

I'm looking for it here. All right, let's see this.

Oh, boy. Is this a real question?

This may be my favorite question of all time. This is my number one favorite question of the day ever. Zack from Kansas writes, I want to buy an Alex Van Halen drumet at auction. It's his last played tour set. It's likely going to be $100,000 to $150,000, and I want to use some of my 401k money to pay for it. Dude, I am with you so far, Zack. I love drums, and I love Van Halen. Most importantly, that was awesome, I think it will go up in value rapidly, more rapidly than my 20% increase in my retirement fund. That's how much it's gone up so far this year. I think it's a good investment because it's rare. I would like to hear your thoughts and insights. Oh, man. Easily. Number one, favorite question of all time. Should I cash out my 401 to buy Alex Van Halen's drum set? I'm going to have to go with a yes on this one, Zack. I'm going to have to go with a yes, a big yes.

I feel like Deloney in his heart of hearts would actually be, Yeah, bro, do it.worth it. It's worth it. Oh, my gosh.

Zack, for all that is holy, please don't do this.

In case someone stops the call here. Do not do this. Please don't do this. For anything. No. Especially not on an Alex Van Halen drumset. I think it will go up in value more rapidly than my 20%. Okay, let me explain. It's a good lesson in compound growth, John. You wanted to play the game?

You're going to bite? There's two investment lessons here. You teach the one on compound growth. I'll teach the one on stuff. Okay. I remember when they asked Warren Buffett about crypto, and he said, I wouldn't buy all the crypto for $25. And they said, Why? And he said, Because no matter how much it goes up in value, that value is not real. It's a proxy. It's a guesstimation. It's a bunch of people saying, I would pay that for I'd pay that for that.

At any given moment, 24/7. Right.

And what he said was, I would have to sell it to be able to buy anything that I need.

That has value.

That has value. Like wood or oil or water.

Or a Van Halen drum set.

Or a Van Halen drumet. Now you see where I'm going. So if you're buying a... Dude, I like buying guitars. I love them. I love them. I love them. And once I sell X number of books, I've got my eyes on a very particular guitar that I have no business buying, but I can't wait to get it. I get that. But to To say that I'm doing this for an investment would mean at some point I have to sell this and hope that somebody will still buy this for this much money down the road. And so I I do not think it will appreciate more than 20%. I just don't see it. When you're thinking about buying things that are going to go up in value, Beanie Babies, baseball cards, do they go up in value temporarily or over a short period of time? Yes, of course they But I'm not going to Mickey Mantle Rookey card. It's gone up a gillion dollars. I wouldn't use that as an investment vehicle, and I wouldn't spend money. I wouldn't borrow money for myself to buy something that I'm going to have to resell to do anything with.

Good point. You ready for the math lesson?

Bring it, bring it, the mathematicianian.

Taking money out of your 401(k) as a withdrawal has not only your income taxes, but also penalties. It's like borrowing, let's say it's $50,000 he wants to rob his 401(k) of.

The It's $150,000.

He said he wants to use some of his 401(k) money to pay for it. I don't know if he's saying he has... Let's say he's going to use 50 grand as an example. Well, he's going to pay upwards of 30, 35% for the pleasure of using that money. Not only that, but he's also Unplug the future growth. I have an example here. Let's say he's 37 years old. He's going to use 50k. That money from 37 to 67, if he had just left it in the 401(k), never added a dime, would have turned into over a million dollars with compound growth. So if you're trying to tell me that this drum set is going to be worth over a million dollars one day, now we'll talk.

He's one of the best drumers of all time, George. I'm not going to lie.

Well, why isn't someone else bidding this up for?

That intro to Hocker Teacher is pretty amazing.

Why are they only selling it for 100,000 if it's actually worth a million?

It's just not there yet. Don't do this, Zack. No.

Zack, Zack. This is a real question, guys. Is this really that no one faked this in the booth? Okay. People always assume, John, that we fake this stuff for entertainment. I could not have written this question in an improv creativity group. I couldn't have done it. It's too good. Too good. All right. Back to real people with real problems, hopefully. John in New York City, what's going on?

Hey, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure. How can we help?

Hey, so I have a business I had for roughly about 15 years, and finally decided to run it. I'm on me some cash. I have about $200,000 that I'm sitting on. I The business itself doesn't have any money because of the way I run it up to this point. So the question is, do I use the money to finance it, or do I apply for a line of credit, or what should be the next step for me?

So explain. You said you've been running the business for 15 years?

I had it for a while, but I had such a nice job. I never really thought about ever quitting the job, which I did a year ago to actually run it. So it was basically I was paying really well. Whatever the money was coming in was going right back out. I started at $346 a month. And fast forward, it's at close to $800,000 right now. And on contract, I have now a top line of 3.2. Wow. That's where I'm going to be at this time next year.

So top So your plan is 800,000 a year?

Right now, but on the contract right now, starting July first. So at this time next year, my top one is going to be 3.2..

And what is your net profit?

30 % on that.

30 Okay. So why are you needing to finance anything? Why can't you just pay cash for whatever you need to do to scale the business?

That was the question. See, up to this point, I've been run in in such a way that I never even thought it to... I took a very tiny salary. And so now that I quit my job a year ago, I decided I'm going to grow this business. We're going to build something for the family, like family legacy. But I have 200,000 I've been sitting on because I come from nothing. And just the fear of going back to nothing is to I just want to open up to cash. That was the question, do I go into debt for the first time in my life? Well, not the first time I actually have a house and an investment property. But again, that's not really part of the equation right now.

I'll tell you, the best way to run a business is debt-free. And that's how Dave Ramsey started this company, the studio we're sitting in, this building we're sitting in. All was done at the speed of cash. And it's how we teach all business owners to run their business in Entrez Leadership, which is our business arm of teaching people how to grow and run a business. And so I would highly recommend you continue to run this business debt-free. Move at the speed of cash. Don't get ahead of yourself. Don't get starry-eye. Don't go finance a million dollars to try to scale this thing. You've done an amazing job doing it with cash. There's no reason to turn to a lender now.

Good enough. I've been actually having to turn business away because I don't have enough cash for what I'm going to need in terms of buying equipment. And I'm okay with that, just so you know.

What business is it?

It's cleaning service Property Management deal with a lot of large commercial properties. That's all I deal with. Everything is with contracts for a year at the very least. We're doing well, and we project to do even well and grow even more. But I'm happy to turn business away because I don't want to do it after... I'm hesitating. I find you guys about a year and a half or so ago, and I'm late to the principles. But again, I don't have any debt.

I don't- John, listen, here's what You just did. You've been moving and moving, and you just signed the big one. You just signed one that's going to bring in millions of dollars. I want you to step out and look at 10 years from now. If you nail this one, it's going to put- I'd like to. I know you will. I know you will. But it's going to put millions of dollars in your pocket, and that is going to be what you buy the new equipment with. If you can hold your lifestyle one more year, and you can hold the way the business operates one more year, you're going to be flush. I'll tell you, you're in New York City, so you get what I'm about to say. Imagine the meetings we had here in 2020 when the world shut down, we had not one creditor to pay. A hundred % of the energy in this building was going to make new business and help people who are hurting. It was not trying to backpay money we'd already spent. And I want you to be ready for that moment because there's going to be people in your field that are desperate to pay off their cleaning equipment and their vans and whatever, and you're going to owe no money.

And you can come in and give people a base price during the middle of a crisis, and you will take the entire market over. You are right where you need to be, my brother. You're on track, on track.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. Open phones at 888-825-5225. We're going to keep the show rolling onto Cincinnati. What's going on to Ambrose in Ohio? How's it going?

Hey, how's it going? I just had a question for you guys. I am getting married in August. Yeah, I know. Basically, both me and my fiancée, I'm 27, she's 26. I'm just wondering how to combine finances. So I have a house in about $100,000 networth, and she was a Traveler for a while, so she's got a really high cash networth of almost 200K. And I'm just wondering, how do you guys suggest combining finances? Obviously, I have been married before, so first time doing this, I don't actually know how you guys did it when you did it. So I'm just looking for that type of help.

Awesome. When I got married- We were so broke.

I had eight cents, and so it was pretty easy to combine it. We combined it in the ashtray, the cup holder in our car.

And Ambrose is like, I have a million. She's got two million. Just want her the best way to combine these things. No, it's great. I love that you're thinking about this. You own a home. What's left on the mortgage?

It's about a 200,000. I don't know, it estimates. It goes from 220 to 240, and I have 140 left on it.

Okay, so you got about 100,000 equity there. And is she renting right now?

She's at home with her parents. Okay.

So once you guys get married, is the plan for her to move into your house? Yes. Okay. And do you guys have any debt other than your mortgage?

No, no debt.

And she has $200,000 in cash?

Yeah, she was a travel nurse during all of COVID, so pretty good.

This is amazing. And you have cash as well?

Yeah, I've got about a 15K cash set aside besides the stuff. So 15k, and then the rest of it's going towards the wedding.

Okay. You guys are cash flowing the wedding. Have you figured out who's paying for that?

Yeah, we already got that covered.

Great. And Honey Moon?

Yep, got that covered, too.

All right. So here's what I did. Here's what I recommend anyone do. Once you guys are back from the Moon, combine your bank accounts to one. And what I did was I had my checking. I just made it a joint checking and added her to it. So it's not like you both have to close down your accounts. You can just create out of yours a joint checking, add her to it. She can shut hers down, and then you guys have a shared joint savings account as well. That can be a high-yield savings account with an online bank. That's really all you need as far as the tactics.

Are you all going to live in this house for a long time? Wait, ask your question again.

Sorry. Basically, also, there's no tax implications of combining finances and considering that work.

No, this is you all's money. Are you going to live in your house? Is this going to be your permanent place? Yes.

I'm going to probably be there for about five years as well.

She's excited about living there?

Oh, absolutely. She's gotten the garden beds, picked out a bunch of stuff, was updating it, pending the rooms. She's definitely nesting a little bit there, although she's not pregnant, that's all I'm saying.

No, I can imagine moving Moving in after you've lived in your house by yourself, it's going to need some work. I would recommend considering taking some of the cash that you all both have and pay this house off. It'd be pretty amazing to start your new marriage without a house payment.

Yeah, you'll have 2.15 going into it if nothing changes, if you don't add anything to it and you pay off the mortgage of 140, you still have 75,000 left as your emergency fund, savings, vacation, slush funds, what have you. That would put you in the Ramsey baby steps at Baby Step 7 at a very, very young age. Which boggles my mind. Now, the question is, what is she going to think about using her 200K toward this mortgage?

I don't know. It's going to be hard to convince her. She doesn't want to invest in that because it's sitting in cash right now. Pay off your house.

That's the best investment you can make. A forced, fixed savings rate. You don't have to worry about what the market did with your money. You guys are sitting pretty. What's your mortgage right now? What's the monthly payment?

1,200.

Okay. You'd free up probably about a thousand bucks. Obviously, you still got to pay property taxes and homeowners insurance. But that's an extra thousand bucks you guys now get to invest on top of your amazing income. What are you guys going to be making together once you're married?

Sorry, 160.

Okay. Can I recommend something before you do any of this stuff? You all need to go out and have a dream about money, a conversation about money. Because I'll tell you what, you're going to start off and you're already going drive out of the church parking lot with two flat tires if that money is still her money, and if your house is still your house. When you all drive out of that church, that's you all's money, and that's you all's house. If you all decide we're going to pay our house off, pay your house off, and if you all decide we're going to live a life where we owe nobody anything forever, and our entire destiny is up to us moving forward, I can't even imagine amazing that would be. I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes thinking about the fights and the discouragements and the near calling it quits me and my wife had the first few years. So much of it was over money and jobs and where we're going to be. You all will have all of that behind you, if you wish. But you all need to get on the same page with all of this becomes ours and just practicing, talking about that and deciding what life do we want to have?

You get what I'm saying?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Okay.

That's the most difficult part because she worked really hard to save up $200,000. It can be very jarring for you to come in and be like, All right, sweet. We're married now, so you're going to pay off my mortgage. You need to change the language around all of this. This is now our money. This is our mortgage. This is our house, our dreams, and what is our best path to wealth and peace and joy. And 100% of the time, that is debt freedom. That's a part of it. And you'll have plenty of time to invest. I'm not worried about the fact you guys will be multimillionaires If you invest from 27, making high six figures all the way up to 67, it will boggle your mind. But for now, in the meantime, while you guys are young, I'd rather free up a mortgage payment and enjoy that money. Invest some, give some, spend some, go on some trips. How does that hit you?

Awesome. That makes a lot of sense. I appreciate the advice.

All right. Go get them, brother.

Goodness gracious. What a wonderful problem to have. Here's the other side. If she came in with $200,000 of I don't know, medical school debt, that would also be our debt.

Our debt. It'd be our debt.

That's right. It's a lot less fun than coming in with 200 grand of net positive cash flow. But it's the same principle where you have to swallow your pride and go, I did so well saving She came into this. Well, that's her debt to pay off, and so she's going to work on that. Well, that's a one-way ticket to a real sad marriage.

Yeah. It's also tough to... So often when you are able to and you're blessed enough to build up some pretty significant cash reserves, you almost don't realize how much you start leaning on it. As an identity, as a safety crutch, I'll be okay. I can do anything, right? When you get married, and of course, you don't want to have a house payment, but I need my... I've been leaning on this for years. This is my $200,000 that I can do anything at any time with, and it's like, No, no, no, now it's us. That's a hard transition to make. I get that's really tough. Yeah.

Probably one of the hardest conversations as you combine together is just getting over that hub of what are we now going to build together? Because there's some compromise. It's not like you marry the same exact person who's like, Oh, my gosh, I was thinking the same thing. You should definitely do that. There's going to be some arguments and spirited debates over what to do. There should be. But when it's born out of the same values, well, now we can get somewhere. We can actually compromise and not lose our principles.

I think it's asking, what do we want our house to feel like at the end of every day? I want it to feel warm and hilarious and If we just want to watch TV, we can watch TV. If we want to just go for a walk, we can do whatever we want because we don't owe anybody anything. That's how you reverse engineer that, Oh, then I'm just going to go and pay the house off because we have this money set in this account. That would be better than, All right, let's buy a duplex, and we're going to- Arbitrage it. Jeez, Louise.

Going down that. We know money fights and money problems are still one of the leading causes of divorce. When you can start out your married life with zero debt, I'm telling you, it's going to decrease the amount of money fights and money problems you have. You're going to have to go look for some problems. That's good.

That's good encouragement. They'll find you. They always do.

They'll find you. Well, I found, John, that even though my wife and I don't argue about money a lot, still a lot of arguing. I'm like, Why did you have to buy so many throw pillows? Well, I have to see which ones look good. Then I'll return the rest. America- Then it's girl math.

If you can help solve the problem of how many pillows are on my bed right now. Why are there so many pillows? I will never, ever understand that.

You're not even allowed to put your head on them.

I have two I don't understand why we need so many pillows on our beds, George.

For the esthetic that no one sees except you.

Help, America. Help.

Send help. This is The Ramsey Show. Here at Ramsey, we talk a lot about building wealth, and a big part of protecting your wealth is insurance. Having the right insurance is key to taking care of the things and people that are most important to you. When you work with our Ramsey Ramsey Trusted Insurance Pros and partners, you'll have the peace of mind knowing you're not paying for gimmicks.

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This is The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. A crux of this show is making the most of your money. The only real way to do that tactically through a daily habit is by budgeting. We've the tool to make that happen for you. It's called Every Dollar. It makes it super simple to plan your spending, track your expenses, save for what matters most to you, all in an easy to use app that fits into your busy life. So you can download it, you can get your spouse to download. You can both be logged in, have accountability, and know exactly where every dollar is going instead of hoping that you have enough money in the account at the end of the month. So go download every dollar for free in the App Store or Google Play today and get that budget rolling. All right, Maya is up next on the line in New Orleans. What's going on, Maya? Hello.

So essentially, my question is, should I put my credit card debt on hold to pay for my summer classes? And then how can I best prepare myself for my loans as I graduate with my MBA in December? So I know there's going to be a new monthly cost overall. I did do a breakdown with all my debt, so I'm trying to be quick, but I can I'm going to run you guys through what I'm working with right now.

Okay. So how much more? You have schools over in December. How much more do you have to pay?

So I'm paying for my summer classes right now. I'll be taking out a I'm on in August, only five grand. But right now, I paid 1,600 at the beginning of this month, and then I owe 1,600 at the end of July. As far as my credit card debt on one, my total is 879, and 300 is due by end of July, my next credit card, 358. That's due at the end of the month. I can easily pay that off now, actually. Hold on.

If you could easily pay it off, why did we go into a few hundred bucks of credit card debt? What happened?

This is crazy. I normally put my gym workout on the credit card every month. It's just a reoccurring thing, but I got a little willy-nilly and rent it up higher than it should be. It's normally about $75 a month.

Ran it up through extra spending?

Correct.

Okay. Maya, you're getting an MBA. Are you going two classes or is this an online program?

This is an in-person. I'm doing an accelerated program, so it's nine months. But this summer, I'm taking some additional courses or some, I guess, online classes. It's about three grand for the summer, and it's normally five grand a semester. Okay, hold on. I'm taking out one additional loan.

Have you gone through all of your services and fees? Yes.

Hold on. Well, I looked at what they're charging me.

Yeah. If you go through your services and fees, I would be stunned if you're not paying a rec fee, you're not paying for an amazing gym.

No, that's separate. I'm sorry. The gym membership is coming out of my own personal- I know.

That's what I'm saying. I'm saying you're about to have an MBA. You're about to have a master's in business administration. As a part of this $5,000 tuition that you're paying, that comes with counseling services and medical clinic and access to the university gym. Over here, you're paying for the gym again. That's what I'm trying to get at.

I'm paying, yeah. I have trainers that I go to, and unfortunately, I just don't want to give it up.

I know, but you don't have the money for it.

You're going to go into debt at who knows what interest rate so that you can have multiple gym memberships? Could you cash flow this otherwise? What would it take?

You're about to be a master of business administration.

Okay, you make a great point. I actually started listening to you guys in January. I was doing great. Then in March, I stopped listening to you all. I'm not going to lie, and I got myself back into credit card debt.

I'm seeing a correlation here. When you don't listen to what John says, bad things happen.

If you don't have George Campbell in your ears at all times, don't do it.

Here we go.

You guys are back into my morning routine.

Maya, are you in great shape? Are you in great shape physically?

I need to get it fully there.

You'll be all right for a few months. Okay, for real. Here's the deal. Let's try to stop the bleeding. No more loans. If you took debt off the table, what would it take for you to cash flow the rest of the schooling?

Okay, so- How many thousands of dollars? To cash flow? Okay, by the end of July, I mean, 1,600, I'm still going to get a grand back for my taxes. I was going to flow that to it. I already have a total of 1,400 I saved up today to pay for my summer school. Done.

July is coming, right? Let's check off July. Exactly. What's the next bill?

Five grand, and then they do payment plans, so it'd be a grand a month.

Done. Can you cash flow a grand a month to avoid going into debt?

Done.

Yes. I make $55,000 a year. Thankfully, my job pays for all my car expenses. Then come August, I'll pick up at my part-time job again. I work at that same gym. You work at the gym and it's not free? The gym membership is free, but the part where I get training is $75 a month.

Oh, my goodness. Okay. Here's the truth. You make 55 grand, you can cash flow a thousand bucks a month. Truth?

Okay. Yeah, if I- Yes, you got to cut things.

You're in graduate school.

Here's our new mantra. Debt is not an option. That's your new mantra. Okay.

Can I stop investing in my 401k for both of them?

Stop investing down to zero. We're going to cut our lifestyle down a little bit so that we don't have to go further into debt. Because the truth is, you don't need this. You don't need a lender. You have Maya. She works her butt off, and she has the money to pay for this. Here's the deal.

That's my thing is I'm young. I'm 23, and my goal is just to pay off the debt by the time I'm 30.

I don't think you can take it out more debt.

I was thinking the end of the year.

But that's why I was going to take out the debt because right now, I'm sitting at 57 How is someone who's so driven and so disciplined, so lackadaisical about their financial future, going, Well, seven years from now, maybe I'll pay off a few thousand dollars?

Or somebody who's getting a credential that is going to give you access to teach people how to run their businesses. You're like, I know.

Maya, if Maya was running Maya Incorporated, she was running the books, what would you grade her right now?

Honestly, I would give myself a two. But ask me two months ago, and I would I gave myself a six.

Is this out of 10? Yeah, out of 10. Okay. I want to rate you 10 out of 10. To do that, we're going to cut the debt because you know how business works, right? Revenue goes up, expenses go down. That's how it works. Right. One of the expenses right now is debt. If you can cut that, then your revenue, your income, is going to be all profit, right? This is business 101. That's how I want you to live your personal life because you know this from a business standpoint, but it's easy to get sloppy your personal life because we are infallible humans who have emotions running the show.

Maya, why are you getting an MBA?

This is a bad question. I have my undergrad in healthcare management. I actually graduated in December of 2022 with my undergrad. I graduated a little early to save some money. I did not like working in the healthcare field, so I switched over to HR, and I worked for a car rental company. I like doing what I'm doing, but I'm going to be honest with you, I really don't know why I'm getting the MBA. I tried to get a master's in a different area, and essentially, the counselor I met with was like, No, you need to get an MBA. It'll do good things for your career. I'm just getting it right now because I know that I'm young, I don't have kids, I have time to get it, and I'm able to, like you said, cash flow is cheap right now.

But you're not cash flow. You told us you're going to go into debt for it, and you already owe $57,000.

Yeah, I do owe $57,000. But yeah, so I'm going to attempt, like you guys said, to cash flow it. Actually, I think that that's possible.

Well, you promised me it's not going to be an attempt. Can you just say, I'm going to cash flow it?

I'm going to cash flow I'm going to cash flow it.

Okay, we will be watching. We will find you on the internet, and we'll know, Maya. So don't lie to us.

Yes. No, I am. I'm going to put a plan in place. I just need to figure out, I guess, how to best budget all my stuff.

There we go. That's a solution.

Hey, Maya, how far along are you? In my- In your program?

I have five classes left, so I'm taking two classes in the summer, and I'll have three come August, and I'm done.

Okay. You're already headed way downhill. Because otherwise, honestly, if you were just one semester in, I would have told you to stop. It's too expensive and it's too hard of a credential. At 23, you're going to get out with an MBA, and you're going to put yourself in a strange position where where you're over-credentialed, so people can't hire you at some of these entry-level positions at these big companies, but you're going to not have enough experience to run the company or be a senior leader, and so you're going to find yourself in a no man's land. I want you to start now networking, networking, networking, networking, so that when you get out, you'll have a job or multiple job opportunities with this new MBA that you don't even know if you really want. Good God Almighty. College counselors, we got to do better.

That puts us The Ramsey Show in the Books. From Ramsey Network, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm Ramsey personality, George Campbell, joined by my good friend and colleague, Dr. John Deloney. That's D-R-Dot, two PhDs, don't forget it. We're pumped to be with you. Happy to serve you in any way we can to give you the right next step for your money, your life, your mental health, your relationships. John, you ready to go?

Always.

All right. That's enough confirmation for me. Andy's up first in Atlanta, Georgia.

What's going on, Andy? Why don't you have more friends? What's up, Andy?

Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my call.

Sure. Sorry, you had to hear that. Yeah, we can hear you loud and clear.

Okay, good. I appreciate it. It's more of a moral question than a money question, but I have two sons. One is graduated college a couple of years ago. One is going into a senior year. The oldest one got the mother of all scholarships where basically he graduated with 20 grand in the bank that they paid him to go there. Wow. Yeah. The younger one basically has full tuition scholarship, but I'm paying his room and board, and I've been cash flowing it just because life has been good the last four or five years. While I saved over 50,000 for each of them in a 529, I was just going to leave that sit there. So if they want to get a master's at some point, It's there. My question is, basically, I will have over four years put out about $60,000, room and board, because it's so expensive.

Andy, Andy, Andy. Yeah. You don't owe your other kid any money. Is that what you're about to say? Okay.

Well, I'm just wondering if there's any moral obligation in any way.

Wait, do the kids know about all the numbers here?

Well, probably. I mean, they're smart. They're smart kids.

Is your other son being like, Wait, But, dad, he got 60 worth. Is he asking you?

No, he's the most grateful. No, not in a million years, Woody. He's getting married this August, and I did tell him I wouldn't because his fiancé's family doesn't really have any money. So I gave him the $15,000 budget.

That's you.

To have his wedding.

That's awesome. Yeah. That made me start thinking, well, there's still a big disparity.

So I didn't just I thought I'd get some- Here's what I know.

There's no disparity. Smarter than me. Here's what I know. There's no disparity. Here's what I know. The home that that young man grew up, and I spent my whole career working with college students. That home that that young man grew up in was safe and it was warm. He had parents who pushed him and coaches and supporters who pushed him, and I don't even know why he got that scholarship. But that didn't happen in a vacuum. You've been supporting him his entire life.

Sure.

That looks different. Support for our kids looks different. Some of our kids need extra medications, and some of our kids need a different backpack, and some of our kids need counseling, and some of our kids need football gear. As a parent, we want to look at what's the best way I can set my kids off. I don't want to keep a spreadsheet. I spent seven cents here, I spent nine cents here. That's a recipe for resentment. Dude, you've done an amazing job with your kids. They won the freaking dad lottery when they got you.

Well, they won the mom lottery, and dad didn't screw it up.

I'm curious, Andy, is this coming from a personal place where you feel guilty?

No, I get it.

I get that. No, not really. Just when I started thinking about, Okay, I'm going to underwrite some of this wedding here, or most of it, then I started thinking, Well, that doesn't even things out. I know it's weird. It's weird to think, Oh, I have to even that out. But maybe it's coming from a place of, in the last several years, I've been very fortunate in my business, and it's done really, really well.

There we go.

I could do that.

That's a totally different proposition position. I got a buddy who, when his kids got married, he's very, very, very comically wealthy. When his kids got married, he surprised each one of them with, I'll take care of your home. That was their wedding gift that they didn't know it was coming. Oh my gosh. If you want to drive a car up that's brand new because you've been super blessed or something like that, do that because... Let me put it this way. You don't need an excuse to be generous with your kids. Sure. I don't want you to be like, Well, okay, I've been super, super blessed in the last four or five years, business-wise, financially. I had to take care of this kid, so I would love to do something amazing for their wedding. Oh, You don't need to go through a bunch of mental gymnastics. If you want to be generous, be crazy and generous. Go for it. But it doesn't have to balance out with your kids.

Don't do it out of a place of guilt.

Yeah, do it at a place of joy. I worked really hard for this money. I got lucky, and I'm going to give a lot of it away. I think that's beautiful, man. That's awesome.

All right. All right. Well, that makes me feel a little bit better about whatever it is. What do you do for a living? Whatever did I decide to do.

What do you do for a living?

I I have a small company that creates sensory rooms for kids with special needs. My customers are mostly school assistants.

Andy, you're making all the other dads out there look real bad right now, especially with Father's Day around the corner. It's the last thing we need.

All right, Andy, can I ask you this one other question? Yeah. When you have a small business, did one or both of your kids grow up when things were really lean?

Oh, yeah. When I left my decent paying job to come here as a partner, I had to take my salary down to basically $30,000 while we were putting them in music lessons. We drastically tightened the belt for years. That's where we learned about this thing called the envelope system. I've actually taught FDU once at our church.

Well, I'm really grateful, dude. But listen, that is a very common thing that there's really lean years You as a dad are looking at these two youngsters and you're wishing you could give them the new baseball glove, the new bat, the new computer, the new whatever, and you just can't. That money doesn't exist. Then when it comes, there's this sense that I, A, need to make up for the past, or now that I can, I'm going to just turn the faucet on and flood this kid with. Don't use your kids as a way to try to make up. Just do it out of a spirit of generosity and a spirit I can. You get what I'm saying? You were an amazing dad. They got to see you grind. They got to see you win. They got to see you sacrifice. They got to see you win again. Dude, how incredible. What a gift for these kids. Then they get to see you dedicate your life to serving kids with learning exceptionalities and special needs. Come on, man. I mean, it's incredible. It's incredible.

Well, thank you. I mean, in the end, it's manufacturing and business, but it is nice to be able to do it in a way that enriches the lives of people who really need it.

That's exactly right. You're there, my brother. Come up with something really cool for them and give it away and be comically generous with them, but not out of any sense of obligation, but because you get to, because you're able to, and that's just who you are. You're a guy who's just generous. That's amazing.

I want to be Andy when I grow up. For real? That's a good reminder. Happy Father's Day. It's around the corner and a lot of great dads out there. They get a bad rap, the Homer Simpson era of dadhood. But then you have Andies, and you're like, Oh, that's what it looks like to be a father, to raise kids the right way.

Kids learn when their dads are grinding way more than when dads are just passing out new things all the time. You want to teach your kid, let them watch you really struggle and continue to get up and continue to get up. That transforms generations.

Good on you, man. Beautiful. This is the Ramsey Show. All right, let's cut to the chase. It's easy to get discouraged about crazy house prices and interest rates. But when you have the right real estate agent to help you buy and sell the right way, you'll have confidence to make smart decisions.

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Ramsey solutions. Com/agent. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. The number to call is 888-825-5225. You are the show. Thank you guys for calling in and trusting us with your most important life decisions. We don't take it lightly, and we try to do our best to steer you in the right direction. That will lead you to peace and debt freedom. All right, up next, we got Catalina in New York City. What's going on, Catalina?

Hi, how are you? Thank you for taking my call. Absolutely. I need your help. I'm joining in debt, but my main One question is, I have a loan for 21,000 with 11.99%, and I just call a company, one of those debt relief companies, and they said they can save me on the interest if I join the program. Do you recommend that?

No, no, no, no.

Can I be honest, Catalina? I hate these companies with a burning, undying passion because they promise this wonderful life where you're going to have debt relief. And what they really do is they tank your financial life and then attempt to negotiate while taking your money. And so what they're doing is something you can do for yourself without paying someone to do it and without taking your financial credit and all that in the process. What debt is this?

It's a personal loan that I took to pay off some of my credit cards.

Okay. You got 21k. How much do you make a year?

About 60.

You make 60. Okay. Are you single?

I'm married.

Okay. Is this household income 60,000?

Yes.

Okay. Are both of you working outside the home?

Yes.

Okay. You're living in New York City, correct?

Yes.

Okay. I'm just curious because it's such a high cost of living out there. Are you guys struggling to just eat?

That's my nearest city. I live in a different town, in a small town. But it's close to your city.

Got it. What company holds this debt?

It's one of those... Hold on, let me see the name. It's one of those...

Hold on, let me see the company. Because I'm wondering if you can negotiate directly with them and say, Listen, I want to pay you back. These interest rates are killing me trying to get a handle on the principle here. Could How did you bring the interest rate lower, and I'm going to attack this thing and get you your money back.

It's one of those credit unions.

Okay. Have you been over there to talk to them?

No, not yet. I just gave a call to one of these companies. That's why I call you because I was like, I don't want to make another mistake. I already make plenty of mistakes.

I'm glad because I don't like these debt consolidation companies, these debt relief, these debt settlement. They all work in a few different ways, but largely, what they'll tell you to do is, Hey, stop making payments. Don't make any payments, and you pay us that payment instead. In the meantime, your credit gets tanked. It'll go to collections, and they're going to try to settle.

That's their strategy. That's what he told me, not to make any payment, yes.

Exactly. That's their strategy. Instead of doing that, instead of stopping payments and tanking this thing, sending it to collections and causing this problem to get even worse, the key here is for you to attack it because you're trying to take the shortcuts. I'm going to pay off one debt by using another debt to pay off that debt, right?

Yes. I'm on baby step one. I started to line up my debts, but I'm lost.

How many more debts do you have?

Well, I have a lease, and I have credit card debt, that's $10,000.

Okay. Do you know what's left on the lease if you did an early buyout?

Yeah, the lease is end on September, but I would like to refinance and keep the car and buy it out because I already paid half of the car. That's my only transportation that I have.

What's the car worth?

It's $39,000.

Whoa. And you guys make 60 a year.

Yeah, we're drowning.

Don't you think that was a lot of car to buy?

Well, at the moment, the payment seems okay, the monthly payments, but now I'm almost done with it.

One of the keys, Catalina, to breaking free from this debt cycle is to not use the language of broke people. Here's what broke people ask, how much down, how much a month? Wealth people ask, how much? Can I afford it in full? And so that's the question I want you to ask, because you will become a wealthy person. That is going to be your identity. And now we're just going to take some steps to get there. So you've got the lease, you've got the credit cards, you've got the personal loan. What else is out there?

That's it. Just the lease, the credit card, and the loan.

That's plenty. Don't worry. That's enough. And so we need to get our income up. How quickly can we get our income up? Are both of you working full-time right now?

I'm doing some side work. Sometimes I do a day extra, and I get almost $300. I'm trying to get side work.

Okay. You have a husband? For a week. Yes. What is he doing work?

He cooks.

Okay. So are you both making about 30,000 or is one making a lot more?

Well, he makes less than me.

Okay. What does it look like for him to go make more income?

Well, he's about to retire next month, so it's probably going to be- Retire?

You can't afford it, sweetheart.

Well, he's going to retire to get the paycheck, but he's going to keep working. So it's going to be a little more income.

How old are you two?

He's Almost 65.

He's almost 65?

Mm-hmm. Does he have a pension or a 401? How's he going to retire?

Nothing. He has nothing.

Yeah, You can't retire, sweetheart. You all are broke.

Where does that leave you now trying to pay off all of this debt with half the income?

Well, it's going to be bashing in more because the Social Security money will be a plus because he's going to keep working his hours.

Okay. I don't understand the concept. I thought the whole point of retirement was to not be working.

Yeah, no, not for him.

But hold on. When he retires, where is he going to get extra money from?

He's going to stay in his job, and then he's going to collect from Social Security.

Okay. By retirement, you mean he's going to start collecting?

He's going to start collecting, exactly. Now, stop working.

Got it. Okay. I would rethink this whole plan, I think you guys need to figure out how we're going to go into retirement completely debt-free. Number one, I would look into the buyout of the lease, and then I would sell that car. It is not a car you should be driving. Even if you do buy it, you don't keep it. You're going to buy it in order to then sell it to make that $30,000, and then you're going to get a much cheaper car in cash.

Okay, I like that. How do I resell it?

Well, you can go private party on Facebook marketplace. That's one way to go in your local community. There's reselling sites like AutoTrader. You could list it on, Craigslist. Then with the credit card side, we need to cut those up. They've not been a blessing in your life. Have you used the credit cards recently to stay afloat?

Well, I just use it for the monthly payments, but I paid at the end of the month, most of them. It's just one that I have.

You said you had $10,000 in credit card debt.

Yeah.

Well, then you don't pay it off at the end of the month. I think we need to stop getting starry-eyed about what you hope will happen when you start using these lenders money and start looking at what we need to do to never need a lender again and never need one of these programs and never need to pay off the credit cards with a personal loan because the interest is better. Do you see how this is broke people math and broke people mentality? Yes. You guys work too hard to be living like this at 1565. I know.

That's why I need you help. That's why I decided to call you.

Well, help me help you. Here's the deal. I'm going to gift you Financial Peace University. I want you to watch all nine lessons with your husband. We're going to craft a plan to get our income up, even if that means he's working and not collecting social security for another few years. And your goal is we are not going to stop working until our debts are paid off and we have some stability and peace in our life. And that might be a four-year journey for you, but it will be worth it. So hang on the line. Christian is going to pick up and we'll gift you Financial Peace University Just promise me you'll go through it, watch every lesson, and take what we've said to heart. I will. Thank you, Catalina. We are cheering you on. Goodness, I just want to strangle some lenders, John. They disgust me. Debt settlement, debt relief. Get a clue. This This is The Ramsey Show. Are you planning to sail with us on the Live Like No One Else Cruise? Then you better book your cabin before they're sold out. If you're on Baby Step 4 and above, come aboard March 22nd through the 29th of 2025 as we set sail for Turks and Caicos, St.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Well, guys, insurance is a big deal. This is the defense you play as you begin to build wealth. If you want some help in that area, we've got Ramsey trusted pros who can shop the market, compare insurance quotes, so you don't have to. You're a pro, compare quotes, discounts, bundling deals for you at extra cost. And these Ramsey Trusted pros will also make sure you have all the coverage you need and nothing you don't. And we vet these folks, we interview them. We coach them to make sure that they are market experts who have your best interests at heart. So if you're wondering if you have the right coverage based on your individual needs, be sure to find out for yourself at ramseysolutions. Com/ coverage, and you can take our free coverage checkup quiz. It's quick, it's simple, and you will have more peace by the time you're done. Let's go to the phones. Victoria is up next in Vancouver British Columbia. What's going on, Victoria? How can we help?

Hi. My husband and I are on Baby Step 7, and we have begun the process to immigrate from Canada to the US. I was wondering, how much should we be saving for our family for medical expenses? We have four kids, five and under.

Part.

The timeline to immigrate would be maybe five years, maybe 15 years. There's lots of time to save.

Yeah. Well, I don't think medical expenses are something to worry about. Are you guys going to be working here?

Well, my husband will be, but in Canada, we don't pay anything.

Brag about it. So he'll probably have- Sorry. If he's working for an employer, he'll likely have an employer subsidized health care plan, or is he going to start his own business?

He is self-employed, and so he would just be moving his business.

Okay. So you guys would just be shopping the marketplace for health insurance, and you can start that process now. You can jump on ramsey solutions. Com and get connected with a health insurance pro who can walk you through the options. Here's what it is today. If you move here today, here's what the cost would be. Here's the things to look out for. Here's the monthly premium. Here's where your out-of-pocket max would be. I wouldn't overthink it. Just know that it can be variable because of being self-employed and just shopping over the marketplace. It might be for a family of six, it could be 3,000 bucks a month for health care.

Okay.

I would get at least a figure. Now, that's going to change 5 to 15 years from now, but it will be far more expensive than if you just had an employer subsidized plan. Then on top of that, just making sure you have the out-of-pocket maximum. Let's say it's with your plan, $15,000 is the max that you pay before insurance covers the rest. I would make sure to have that in an emergency fund. Or if you have a high deductible health plan here in the States, you can get something called a health savings account, where it's triple tax savings. You put the money in tax-free, it will help you grow it tax-free, you can invest the money, and you can use it tax-free for qualified medical expenses. That's another great way to help cover some of those costs.

How often do you pay $15,000?

That's like if you had all five of your kids in a car, and this is all an awful hypothetical, so forgive me, and there was a bad car wreck, and everybody had to go to the emergency room, the most you would pay is $15,000. Then the insurance company has to pick up 100% after that. It's catastrophic. I don't know. If you're like me growing up, you are always breaking something, a breaking a bone, and let's say it got infected, the most you're going to... That out-of-pocket is the cap. George and I both, we both have kids, and so we have in our emergency fund, I have in my emergency fund the maximum amount of money that I could ever have to pay in a single year. It's there. I have never had to use that ever in my life. But if it did, I would have it.

I'm just throwing random numbers out there, Victoria. Yeah, just making them up. Because every plan is going to be different. I think ours is $10,000. My plan is nowhere near that. I think with the family plan, we're on a high deductible health care plan here through Ramsey. I think it's like seven or $8,000 maybe for a family, maybe $10,000 max.

Yeah, so that $15,000 was a made-up high-end number. But there's a cap to... I think the illusion outside of the US is every time you go to the doctor, you have to pay for it out of pocket, and it's $50,000 every time you go. That's just not true.

Okay.

I think some facts would help you to... I think right now, it's just this the unknown is so scary. Jump on ramseysolutions. Com, talking with a health insurance pro, they'll just be to give you some ballpark numbers to give you some ease and go, All right, here's what you would really need to cover, day in, day out. Here's what you need in an emergency. Here's what it would cost per month. That'll give you a better picture.

Okay. Now, health, medical costs aside, would you think it is a wise suggestion to move from Canada to the US in terms of financial gain?

I mean, I'm so biased. I'm so like America. I think this is the greatest country. I would never leave it. I'm a little biased towards that. I think there's a lot of opportunity here. We've got our fair share of problems. I'm not going to pretend like it's perfect, but I think it's a wonderful place to live that has tons of opportunity and It's like college. You get what you put into it, and you can make it what you want it to be.

I can tell you this. For my friends who live in Canada, in Tennessee, where we live, and every state has different income tax brackets or different state income tax. We have no state income tax in Tennessee. None.

Yeah, we were thinking of moving to Tennessee.

Well, it's a beautiful place. Your tax rate is going to be dependent on how much you make, but you're just going to pay federal taxes if you live in a state like this. Then on the high end, it would be up to 35% of your income if you were making a whole bunch of money. When you think of how much taxes you pay at home, it's going to depend on how much you are making and all that. But my Canadian friends sure are jealous of how much of my money I get to take home.

And how much cheaper everything is. When Canadian callers call in Victoria, my brain like, explodes. When they tell me just how much the groceries are and cost of living and all of these things. I do think there's some benefits there to be had, but just two guys' opinion who have only lived in America, so take it with a grain of salt. That's right. But I wish you guys the best. That's a big decision, big move, and call us back if you need any help along the way.

I love living in Tennessee for whatever that's worth.

It is a wonderful place. I'm not going to be too excited and invite everyone because it's getting busy over here. We're close for business.

I don't mind. Keep coming. Keep moving.

Keep it moving. It's good times. All right. Let's try to get to one quick one here from Keith in Newark, New Jersey. What's happening, Keith?

Hi, guys. A big fan of the show. I appreciate taking my call. I'm trying to advise my father, who is 81 years old, lives a very active lifestyle, completely independent, and he's looking at his future needs for his medical care. He's considering a continuing care retirement community, and I'm a little concerned about the situation of putting all of his eggs in one basket and limiting his ability to make decisions, to be flexible with his spending and his health care needs in the future.

What's it going to cost?

Roughly what he's looking at, he's probably got about 2 million saved up. The buy-in is $450 down and about $5,600 a month.

What does that include?

That's nothing, really. That's just a condo. That's independent living. If he wants to progress to... I'm sorry, acute care. I'm sorry, assisted living, that comes with additional costs and can be up to $14,000 a month. My concern is when I actually do some back of the envelope math, if he puts down $450 and he's paying $5,600 a month, for the first four years, he's essentially He's actually paying 17,000. Oh, because of the buy-in. Just for the ability to possibly use the assisted living, which he may or may not need.

Yeah, I agree. He might earn it. Yeah, I agree. Based on what you laid out. This does not seem like a great plan. He can live where he wants to live, and when he needs assisted living, let's move to that option.

Yeah, and unfortunately, this is a much deeper conversation here. I think there's some conversations friendship and community and safety. So have those conversations with your dad. Sorry we didn't have enough time to unpack it, but that's a very layered conversation.

You're wise to tread with caution here. This is the Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. Our scripture of the day, Psalm 103: 13. As a father has compassion for his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him. Charles Kettering said, Every father should remember that one day his son will follow his example, not his advice. I love that. That's his version of more as caught than taught. I like that. Again, Happy Father's Day this weekend for all who celebrate. That's you, John.

That's me. It's a big weekend for me.

One of the best dads I know. And me. This is my first Father's Day. John, thanks for acknowledging that.

Yeah, congratulations.

Thank you. We did it. Excited to see what Mia gets me.

Yeah, she better come strong.

Yeah, I mean, you're not getting breakfast in bed from a nine-month-old.

How well did you do on Mother's Day?

Not great, but I feel like it was a win. I did all the things I could think to do.

So you should expect what you did divided by three.

I expect nothing. That's how I live my life.

I completely disagree with that. Keep the bar low. You already have a picture of that morning already laid out.

I honestly forgot it was happening. That's how humble I am. Kelly is saying words that I cannot say.

The number of thoughts going through my head that I'm not going to say because we're on the radio.

All right, let's do what we do, John. Danny is in Orlando up next. How can we help Danny?

All right. How's it going, gentlemen?

We're good. What's up?

Well, I find myself very much in a poor mindset. I was listening to your conversations earlier, buying vehicles, finding out what the down payment was, versus monthly payment. 34 years old I find myself in about $50,000 worth of debt, salary making about $88,000 a year. I have a home. I purchased it about four years ago, so it's gone up significantly or good enough, I think, in equity, up to $100,000. However, the debt to income ratio, I think, has finally caught up. I think the writing was on the wall a few years ago, but I've been able to stave it off as much as possible. Unfortunately, today, I find myself making minimum payments, sometimes missing payments, dealing with late fees, penalties, and really just making the bare minimum, sometimes missing those payments, in turn, having negative effects on my credit score, which are obviously impacting me long term for any loans or anything of the sort. So the question is, well, what do you promote or advise that I do? But what I had thought about is selling the home that I currently have, using the equity to pay off the debt, in turn, raise the credit.

I should have some money left over at the time to purchase another income-generating property. Ideally,.

That's the last time we need to look into his business opportunities.

What are you doing, man? Okay, Danny, I can sense I'm less concerned about your credit score. I'm more concerned about Danny.

You sound like a guy who just got punched in the face. Well, yeah, looking at- You just seem just tired. I'm just done. I'm overwhelmed. If I get one more overdue bill, are you ready to just live a different life? Yes, sir. Are you single?

No, I'm not.

I have a wife at home, two children, and I think that's a big part of it, right?

Looking at 30 years down the road, what life and my may be able to provide them.

How does she feel? Is she as exhausted as you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so.

What do you do for a living- Turn it around. What's that now? What's your job? What do you do for a living? 88,000. Ehs manager, Environmental Health and Safety Manager. Okay. What debt is the 50? Break it down. Come again. What debt? It's two vehicles, about 15,000 each. Some of it is investments that I made in the property, perimeter fence, water softener unit, some credit cards. That's minimal. I think that's like 2,500, $3,000.

But the bulk of it, it's the vehicles, the property improvements.

This is for your primary home, you did these improvements? Yes, sir. Okay. Yes, sir. Dude, stop calling those property investments. You wanted a water softener on your house. Just call it what it is because it allows you to bandaid or duct tape over. You wouldn't normally spend that money, or maybe you would, but just call it what it is, dude. I wanted a nice fence, and I built a nice fence.

I wanted a water softener, got a water softener. I wanted to upgrade the flooring. I did that.

Let's don't wrap it up into The ROI. Yeah. Okay. What are the cars worth? They're upside down on the vehicles.

I bought them like two years ago or. Have you checked like Kelly Blue Book, Private value on these?

Yeah, I think it's about 16, 18, and their value like 10, 8, something like that. Okay.

You said you had 15 on each. You're saying it's 16 to 18 on each? Something like that.

I'll be honest, I don't know the exact numbers, but it's between that 15 to 18 range. I say that because there's late fees that have compounded on there.

If it was 15 at one point, the late fees have brought it up now. Well, please do not let this car get repoed. You need to get out of this thing. Even if you're underwater, here's two options for you to get out from under this. Number one, you save up the difference in cash. You have a great income. I don't know where it's going right now.

I don't buy that. It's just going to the minimum payments.

I think there's some spending and lifestyle happening here, too, right?

I mean, a mortgage payment is $2,700. And what do you take home every month?

I take half of it as 5,000, give or take.

5,500. Yeah.

So about half your income is just going to try to cover the mortgage. Exactly. Well, I'll tell you this. Selling the house is a last-ditch napalm. We tried everything else, and we couldn't scrape out of the dead after years of trying. That's when I would say sell the house. But to me, right now, it feels like a cheap shortcut. And I do think this was too much payment for you. I think if we can't get the income up long term, then selling the house is a good idea just because it's too much of your world. But don't do it as a temporary shortcut.

That's where I find myself. Most of my income is going to the property, to the house. Do you have any money in savings? No, kid, can't. All of it has been slowly chipped away, and that's what I meant by the writing was on the wall. Once I saw that savings slowly fade away, that's when I should have made some drastic changes. But I had enough to make it buy up until now, but now it's paycheck to paycheck. What about your lifestyle stuff? Do you all go out to eat a lot? Not anymore. Okay. We used to. I tell you, we did have a lifestyle where comfortable. We would go out and everything was paid tip top. Credit score was in the 700s. This all really turned downhill within the past four years and quite pinpointed. Obviously, it's my fault. I think too much debt all at once. What are the car payments?

$500 and $600. Here's the other option. I mentioned saving up the difference in cash of the difference you're underwater on. That way, you can sell the car and you have a clean title. The other option is going to your local credit union and getting a loan for the difference. That way, instead of being $18,000 in debt, you're in debt for the difference.

At least that gets you out of the car, freeze up a payment. Can you guys live on one car for now, or do you need two? We essentially are.

One of the vehicles is not even registered because I can't afford that.

Well, can you work over Overtime? Side hustles? I'm a salary employee, so it's not a real overtime situation. But yes, side hustles. Side hustles. I'm a handyman. I do a lot of handy work, and I'm not afraid to work. What are you charged for handyman work?

So I've cleaned out things. I charge by the job. I don't charge by the hour. But Danny, there's something that you make 88,000. You almost make 90 grand. Yes, sir. I don't understand. Help me with this. I don't understand where this all goes. Are you investing? Yeah.

No, you're probably taking a pension, right? A little bit here and there, but nothing that's steady enough for me to say, Yep, this is my investment plan.

You need to point all the guns at the debt, which means no investing, no eating out. Every extra penny we can scrounge up is going toward our smallest balanced debt. We're going to knock that out. Which is the smallest debt?

A credit card? Yeah. Okay. So we knock that out. The problem is, here's the thing. You picked up on my tone of voice. I have a hard time looking at that, when I am behind on the HOA, I am behind on the mortgage payments, and I'm looking at a potential eviction from my home.

Well, if you're going to get evicted, then we got to sell it before you hit this point. But I think we need to take an honest look. Right now, you don't even know your debt numbers. Go pull your credit reports from all three bureaus.

You can do that for free, annualcreditreport. Com. Get a real picture, sit down with your wife and say, We're in crisis. We need a plan. Hang on the line.

I'm going to send you my book, Breaking Free from Broke, to help you navigate some of this. Bro, this is happening to you. You can go down with this ship or you can get a path off. But this is happening. You got to look at these numbers. I know it hurts. I know it's scary. You have to look at these numbers. That puts this hour with the Ramsey Show in the books. Thank you to Dr. John Deloney, the folks in the booth, and you, America. Thanks for listening. We'll be back before you know it. Hey, folks, Dave here. You want to hear even more life-changing content from Ramsey? Download the Ramsey Network app so you can catch all your favorite shows all in one place, like the Ramsey Show, Smart Money Happy Hour, and the Dr. John Deloney Show. You'll get real talk about life, relationships, money, and your career.

Plus, the app lets you browse by topic like debt, business, or selling your home. Get the content you want whenever and wherever you want to listen. Download the Ramsey Network app today.