Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Thanks for joining us, America. We're so glad you're with us. Rachel Cruz, number one best-selling author, Ramsey personality and co-host of the Smart Money Happy Hour. Ramsey Network production is super popular. My daughter is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825. Jacob starts this hour in Oklahoma City. Hi, Jacob. How are you?

I'm good. How are you, Dave?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

I'm 25. My wife is 28. We have about $13,273 in debt. We are going to pay that all off by December. In July, we will be moving into my grandfather's home where he is going to let us pay rent to him, but we will basically be able to take all the money that we pay in rent and put it back into the property. The property sits on about an acre and then has a surrounding 40 acres of pasture. We would like to start farming and ranching sometime next year. Currently, we make about $92,000 a year, but sometime next year, My day job will give me a raise to about $100,000 a year. I work for my parents' roofing company, and I will basically be taking over the company. At that point, I'm just I've baffled because I've got so many blessings going on in our life. It's a lot of responsibility to take on. But my big question is, what should I do with the extra money that I'm going to be making? Should I put Should I put that toward the ranch? Should I put that toward after, of course, I follow through with the rest of the baby steps?

Let me make sure I understand the deal. You're moving into property that is not titled to you, and you're going to invest money in the property that is not in your name?

It's in our family trust.

I don't care. It's not in your name. Why is it in a family trust?

Well, my grandparents are still alive. They have it set up in the family trust to where it goes to The trust will basically have my dad as the executor when they pass away, but they- The trust has a trustee today.

Who is the trustee today?

The trustee today would be my grandad mother because I believe the trust name is in my grandpa's name. Then once she passes away, it would go to my father as the beneficiary, and then it would go, I would assume to me. But we've got a meeting with the lawyer that we're supposed to have set up.

Let me tell you, there's no possible way. These people are trying to be sweet. They're trying to plan well, and they're trying to plan well, and they're trying to be generous to you. But there is no possible way you should put money into this property unless it's in your name. On the promise that three generations from now, it's going to land in your name. No way. More going to go wrong here than go right.

Well, and because, too, Jacob, this could be money that you're putting in your own house, right? And building your own equity for your own family. I mean, talk through the why.

It sounds like their intention. It sounds like My intention is to give you the property.

Yes.

My point is they should just do that. Okay. It needs to go into your name because it's unwise for you, even though the current set of players, the current set of actors They're all good people and they all have good intentions. It is not in your name. The things that can go sideways are too numerous to count. Thirty-five years of doing this show, I've heard them all. Okay? Somebody, your dad decides he's going to have an alcohol problem, or he decides he's going to whatever, or your mom accuses him with something he didn't do, or I don't know. I mean, oh, crap, man. Crap And then he's in control of this blessing that you now have invested $100,000 into something that's not in your name, you're going to lose it all. Do not do this. It's okay if you want to live there, but don't improve the property unless it's in your name. If their intention is to put it in your name, there's no reason they can't go ahead and do that.

Okay.

There's no estate tax planning. Is your grandfather's estate worth over 27 million? No. Okay. Then there's no reason from an estate planning perspective that they can't go ahead and move the property into your name. It does not have to stay in a trust. It's just not necessary. This particular piece of property, it sounds like there's a whole bunch of- Is there a difference of putting a name on a deed of the person that owns the home that's still living versus it passing?

Like capital gains tax?

It doesn't matter. If it was just in grandpa's name and grandpa has a car wrecked and gets sued for a half million dollars because he accidentally killed somebody in a and he gets a $10 million judgment against him, then they've lost it because it wasn't in his name. There's all these things that could go wrong and nothing that goes right here, and there's no reason for it. That's what I would do. As far as your long-term investing, you've got a lot going into family business and a lot going into your land and property. Hopefully, it's going to be dated to you, so you can do that. You need to be doing for sure some other stuff like a standard retirement program, get you a couple of Roth IRAs going, and get some stuff in mutual funds where you're not all in Oklahoma farmland. Not that there's anything wrong with Oklahoma farmland, but you don't want all your eggs in one basket. That's what I'm saying. You need a good retirement program going. Be putting 15% of your income away like standard Baby Step 4 for that. If you want to do more real estate and stuff later, you do that with money you save up and pay cash after you get this other thing worked But we're not living in grandpa's house for free and then go buy rental property.

You need to work through this. You need to work through this with them because it's not setting you up in a position of reasonable strength and reasonable dignity. It's unreasonable for you. It's not unreasonable for them. It's their property. They can do with it what they want to do. But I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong. But I am saying if their intent is to go ahead and give it to you, they can do now. Yeah.

Well, and I think that's what's difficult sometimes with Jacob. I don't know how old he is. Twenty-five. Oh, 25. Yeah. So I'm like, that's the hard lessons of life that in his perspective, it's perfect. The dominoes will fall perfectly right in a line. This makes sense, right? And then that's where when it comes to this money stuff, being extra formal in it, meaning documentation, contracts, right? I mean, all of that, it's just to cover your basis. I feel like sometimes we tend to not go as formal with family. That's where you get burned. Exactly. Because you just assume everything's going to fall into place as it should. To your point, the hard part is we've seen it all, heard it all, and I think it's reasonable, Jacob, for you to go in and say that, because they actually could say, That's a great idea. Maybe they hadn't even thought about it. I don't know. I'm going to go ahead and deed it to you, and then you guys get the benefit of it all. It's seeing the back end of it that's always difficult, which is what we see sometimes.

It sounds like they see your potential and you moving into running the family business and you taking the helm of the family over time. They obviously have great respect for you by all the things you're telling me. But this deal here is a little weak, and you all need to work on it. This is the Ramsey Show.

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Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Kimberly is in Colorado Springs. Hi, Kimberly.

Hi, Dave. How are you?

Better than I deserve. How are you?

I'm hanging in there. Cool.

How can I help?

Okay. I called because I recently got divorced. I have three children, and my former spouse, when the court ordered all of the debt and all the things, my former spouse was court-ordered to pay off a credit card that's in my name. Now, we sold our house, I got all the money from the house, paid the lawyer, paid all of my other debts except this one credit card. My question is, I got a decent tax return, and so I was wondering, do I go ahead and just pay it off with the tax return from my money, or do I just let him pay it as he is able to?

He just got the money from the house. Why didn't he pay it off?

He didn't get any money from the house because that's how much was back owed. He actually still owe me another 14,000 that's coming out of his 401k that hasn't come through yet. That's still being worked on. But he didn't get anything from the house because of- What's the balance on the credit card? It's about 2,200.

What do you make?

I am a stay-at-home mom, so I get about 1,900 in child support. I have a three-year-old, and then a nine, and an eight-year-old, and so I stay home with them, and I use the child support and alimony to cover our bills. Then once my three-year-old goes in the free- 1900 is the total you're living on? Yeah.

With three kids?

Well, I'm selling Everything I can, and I have a small, tiny, tiny, tiny pottery business.

You know the math on that doesn't work, right?

Yeah. God has continued to provide. I got about 10 grand back in taxes.

God can do math. That covered me.

He can, but She's continued to provide, and I haven't had to use credit cards or anything, but this is the last one I'm trying to pay off.

Kimberly, where are you living? I'm just curious what your rent situation is.

I'm in Calhand, Colorado, which is about 40 minutes away from the springs. My rent is about $1,150 a month.

You have $1,900 coming in, and you have three kids to feed.

Correct.

Are you planning on going back to work?

I am. We have summer coming up, and then my three-year-old should be going to school next semester or next in the spring. And so once she goes back, I'm going to go back into the workforce. But I got to stay home with my two big ones, and so I wanted to continue to be able to do that with her. So I've been selling everything I can. I refinish furniture a little bit, too. And so I've been doing that, and then pottery, and then selling all the things that I can find to sell.

But you said in the spring, do you mean the fall, you'll go back to work probably in August, in two months?

No, she's talking about next spring.

No, I don't know if she misspoke.

The school year coming up, so we're going into summer now.

September. August, September. August, September, you'll go back in the workforce.

Making what?

I was a stay-at-home mom for nine years, so I'm hoping to make at least 30,000 a year. That's the goal. I have a degree in graphic design, but I hate it with a passion. I I'm wanting to probably do something in sales or something like that. I don't even know what I'm going to do. I'm just trying to get through the next few months doing what I can.

Yeah, I probably would. Considering where you're at financially, I wouldn't pay for it right now. I mean, the hard thing is that it's a little bit of a gamble that it's in your name. So if he doesn't pay, then it's all liability. But for right this moment, I don't know if I would. I mean, Kimberly, there'll be a place that there's nothing else to sell, right? I mean, you're going to get to a place that like...

I'm more concerned about your kids eating the MasterCard getting paid right now. As long as you understand that the divorce decree says he's supposed to pay it, but that divorce decree does not have the power to take your name off of it. If he doesn't pay it, it's going to be you that gets dinged.

Yeah, and that's my thing.

So not having credit- At some point, if he doesn't pay it, you're going to have to drag him back into court, and or you're going to have to pay it.

But that 10 grand I would keep for- It's $2,200 right this second.

I want to make that I don't want going out the door to a credit card company.

Okay. All righty. Perfect. I appreciate your wisdom.

I'm sorry, Kimberly, you're going through this.

I feel like I would not have loved you well if I didn't say, I think you need to lean in on this income side harder. I'm a person of faith also, and I do believe that God comes through. But I have noticed that no corn grows unless I sow corn. For sure. I have to put corn in the ground, and then God brings the rain, and God brings the sunshine. But if you sow sparingly, you're going to reap sparingly. Going along saying, God has provided, God has provided, and it's going to be okay, and I don't have any idea what I'm going to be doing in August. I'm going to love you enough as my little sister to say, you need to focus in on this career piece, and you need to really start thinking about what you're going to be because you're hurting, and you've been wounded by this whole process. It's terrible. You didn't expect to be here. It's caught you off guard. I'm sitting the other side of it, and the math is scaring me for you. I'm going to send you Ken Coleman's book, From Paycheck to Purpose, and I'm also going to send you his assessment to start figuring out what it is you want to do.

Let's start thinking about 10 years from today, what is the glorious, most prosperous career that you're going to love and make a lot of money doing that you start working towards now and actually engage in in August, rather than, I think I'll maybe go into sales because I hate graphic design. I want more thought into this for you than that if I'm you. Hang on, I'll give you those two things as our gift. I'm not trying to be offensive. I know you're hurting, but I'm also not going to let you just sit there because your numbers are really scary, really scary. I want to see some income coming your way for a long-term sustainability for you. Open phones at 888-825-5225. It's awful. When somebody in her situation, her whole plan was to be a mom with those kids. I got to stay home with the other two. Now, I want to stay home with this last one. But all of that changed with the divorce. You don't get to make the same choices because of what's going on.

Yeah. I think she said through the summer.

Yeah, I know. I'm not saying she's bad.

No, no, no. Well, The game has changed.

It's a new script.

Yeah. I'm sure for her, it's so painful. Oh, it is. It's awful. Just not only the divorce aspect. I think that is hard for a lot of women. It's hard for everybody. Where that maternal instinct is so strong. For so many women, they choose to and want to, desire to, dream to, stay home with kids and do all of that. Then when that is taken from you and you're forced back into something like this, it's terrible. But Kimberly, I really think I'm glad you called in, though, because I hope that this gives you some direction, maybe a little bit of motivation, but also it just sucks. I'm like, this is one of those grieving things that Dr. John Deloney talks about. You grieve what isn't true anymore. It's gone.

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Thanks for hanging out with us, America. We're glad you're here. Continuing to rank in the top podcast in the world because of you. We appreciate that. We were one of the first four to have over a billion downloads on Apple. Thank you. We appreciate that. The only way that happens is if you guys tell people about the show, and we would appreciate it if you do that. Share the show, click the share button or cut out the link and email it to a friend and go, Hey, listen to these guys. They got something to say here. Of course, follow. Click, follow. Click, subscribe. That makes a big difference in the algorithms. And always those five-star reviews are just sweet and helpful. Thank you very much. Ryan's in Pittsburgh. Hey, Ryan, how are you?

Good. How are you doing today?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

All right, so quick question. My wife and I, we are newly married, and one of our Our cars is about at 100,000 miles. My question for you is, when is the best time to trade in the car to get a new car? For a quick, brief context, we have no debt besides the mortgage, and we do have some money set aside for a car, for a newer car.

Good for you. Is it breaking down on you, Ryan? I know $100,000 is a lot.

I just- $100,000 miles.

$100,000 miles, yeah, that's what I meant. But is it still in good condition, still driving?

It is still in good driving condition.

Who's driving it?

My wife is. Okay.

It's time to upgrade. Federal law, his wife gets the good car. Okay. Yeah, and newly married, they may not have told you about the law. Rule of thumb is this. Number one, always pay cash. Correct. For whatever you drive. Number two, I would not buy a brand new vehicle unless you have at least a $1 million net worth. Because they go down in value so quickly, you really can't absorb the death blows that the mathematics give you unless you've got substantial wealth to absorb those blows. We're going to limit that damage. Then the third thing that helps us to do that is never... Really, I can think of very few times in your life, like almost never, that It would add up all the things that you own with wheels and motors, and it should not equal more than half your annual income. Because if it does, you've got too much stuff going down in value for you to mathematically get ahead. If you got a $12,000 lawnmower, that's part of the equation. People do. God help us, but they do. If you got a CDU and your CDU has a sister and so on.

These things all go down in value. I own a bunch of them, too, but it needs to be a small percentage of my world that's going backwards if I want to go forwards. As long as you're those three things, you're not buying new a millionaire, you're paying cash, and you're not more than half your annual income, and you want to move up in car, I'm fine with you moving up in car.

How much do you guys make a year, Ryan?

Combined net right now is 70.

Okay.

Okay. The price range of car would be what?

Right now, we have 20 set aside.

What's your other car worth?

For a used car? Probably trade in value right now around 15.

Okay, so you got 35 and you make 70. That's about the max. That's half your annual You have income. That's what I was just talking about. You don't need to be driving two $40,000 cars when you make 70 because they're losing $10,000 a minute and you can't get ahead. That's about the most you ought to be driving, making 70,000. Now, I think you said 70 take home. We're talking about gross income, but still, you're right in that range. That's fine. What you're outlining makes sense, and it's okay to do that, but that's some good guidelines. Folks, it's real simple. It's not because I hate cars. I actually love cars. I've got a bunch of nice cars. I like cars. But I hate what they do mathematically, and I certainly hate when you're losing 60% of the value in five years if you buy a new car. If you buy a $40,000 new car, you lose $24,000 in five years. You can't afford to do that if you don't make a lot of money and get ahead, not in make progress.

I'll say this, too. It was interesting. There's an account on Instagram. I've gotten to know her name's Kelly, but she's called the Car Mom, and she goes through and reviews cars. It's her big thing. She's become an expert. I think her dad. I think she's in the car business. Her family has been. But it's been so interesting. I talked to her on my show. I had her as we're talking about used cars. She was saying, though, how cars today, we used to say the 100,000-mile rule, and she's like, But the way they're built now, they last longer. That was a little bit, too, why I was pushing on it. Again, if you want a new car, mathematically, you can. But don't just assume you guys these days that, yeah, just because it has a high mileage, that it's done, right? If it's not given you trouble and you're content in it, then you're fine.

If it's a Dodge Neon, it's probably done. But it was done when you bought it, so you already screwed up. I know, but there are some cars that do- But most cars, you're right. Most of them are great vehicles.

The way that they make them now, they do last.

I mean, a dadgum Camry or a Honda, a Corridal run 300,000 miles without an eye blink. Yeah. So you can- They're great vehicle. She's right. I agree with her.

That's very good. So you can go upgrade in the math and everything we just talked about. But also, just remind in the back of your head that you may be high mileage.

The first guy that ever worked here was named Russ Carroll that helped us do financial counseling here. Russ always would sit with clients and say, Okay, want or need? Is this a want or need? Here's your need. Your need is transportation. But everything above something that provides transportation is simply a want. But we justify it. It needs an airbag. It needs this. An airbag? Yeah, probably. Well, it needs to be, My little children are going to die, and all this crap. No, they're not. That's just bull crap. But this thing of we justify our ego asks and call them needs when they're actually wants. Anything above the basic service of transportation. Getting you from A to B. Ryan moving up out of a 100,000-mile car in his bike- That's not giving him trouble. That's not giving him trouble is a want. Yes. It's an okay to spend money.

Want is fine. Yes.

It's okay to spend money on once. I gave you the guidelines. Just spend money on once. But we don't, and he didn't, He didn't. But don't call up, and more importantly than us, don't tell yourself that somehow this is a need. Oh, God, we're dying. And all this drama queen crap in your head that people do in order to justify buying something that they just simply wanted. And they couldn't just own it. I wanted it. Why did I buy it? I wanted it. I don't have a single vehicle today that isn't 90% of the reason I own it is luxury. 10% is transportation. Because they're ridiculous cars. But it has nothing to do with nothing. It's not that I need to impress you with the car. That's not the point because I don't buy it for you. I bought it for me. What you think of a stop light is irrelevant to me. But this thing of the prestige of a car, this sense of security, which is false, to her point, 100,000 a mile car. So all of that, these are wants. And so be careful, is this a need or is this a want?

Clothing is a need. An $8,000 purse is a want. And there's nothing- A $100 purse. You added some zeros. That's a really nice purse. I don't know. I've seen a lot of... What are they? Coach or whatever, these Louis Vuitton stuff, whatever. I mean, this crap. There's nothing wrong with it. I mean, one gun is a need. Oh, my gosh. A closet full of guns is a want. That would be me. Okay, I'll pick it on your purchase. I'll pick on my guns. All right. It's a want. Needs versus wants, though, is key. I use them all at once to protect my family. So it's a want.

It's a luxury. Yes. It's needs versus wants. It is, though, a real conversation because the expectations of lifestyle within those categories is so high. The norm already is high. Challenging yourself a little bit on that, I think, is healthy and good. Ryan, yes, you all can upgrade a car. You got cash. It's within the mathematical limits. But just because it hit 100,000 miles doesn't mean you have to if it's not breaking on you. There you go. I'm going to close this out. This is The Ramsey Show.

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Hey, I am so glad I get to talk to you. My question for you today, I am 27, and I just started having any concept about money maybe three, four years ago, and I've been trying to crawl my way out of debt ever since. Well, I went into business for myself about a year ago, and I want so badly to be able to have a budget that I can write down and follow. But my husband, he has a set income, gets paid every two weeks. But for me, my brain, I don't understand how I can make a budget for myself not week to week how much I'm going to make. I don't even know where to start.

Yeah. So that's an irregular income, Leslie. And a lot of people, they deal with that, whether they're on a commission system or they own their own business or whatever it might be. So The way we teach people is to say, Okay, so you have your husband's that's consistent. And then, honestly, and I have to do this too, Leslie, for mine, you guesstimate. It's what we say, that you look ahead because you want to do the budget before the month begins.

So you'll look ahead and say- You're using the Every Dollar app. Will the paycheck planning feature help, Rachel?

Well, not necessarily, depending on her income. I mean, her total income is going to be changing, possibly. I always just tell people to say, Hey, I think that comes into play second. But to say, look ahead and say, Okay, here's what I think I'm going to make. I always go on the conservative ends just to make sure that all of your main bills, your four walls, food, shelter, utilities, transportation, all of those are covered. And then in your every dollar budget, prioritize, even visually, the list of, Okay, here is what we have to have, and here's what we have to get paid. Or once we're paid, then we know, Here's the categories that we're going to have. And if the end of the budget, if those last few categories If you don't have the money for it because you made a low income, that's okay because they're not necessities, if that makes sense. But yeah, the paycheck planning action in the EveryDollar app, you're able to say, Okay, if my paycheck hits on the 15th, here are the bills between the 15th and the 30th that have to be paid. You're able to make sure that your income is spread out evenly throughout the month as well, if that makes sense.

Leslie, what does your husband bring home?

I think last year, it was in between 60 and 70,000.

Okay, so let's call it $5,000 a month. Okay. What is your worst month? What would you bring home?

Oh, my gosh. December, I think I've maybe made $100 the whole month.

Okay. Does that happen very often?

I guess it, not one year. No. I opened my business March of last year, and I was doing great all the way up until, I would say, about November. Then it went dead all the way up until it maybe started picking back up the first part of March. Even now, I wouldn't say I'm doing great.

So what are you making now? What'd you make in March?

Probably a thousand dollars all month.

Okay. So you're going to have to get this business moving. It's not working very well.

Well, and I do plan on that. So right now, I only do nuisance wildlife, but I actually take my pesticide exam next week. And if I can get that, having routine places that I go and spray for bugs that every month, every other month, I have set income. Whereas right now, I just wait on someone to have a wildlife problem, and I go take care of it.

Yeah, okay. And you got to have a whole bunch more people calling you. They got problems.

That's how the problem is I can't afford advertising because I'm barely making my bills.

Yeah, but it's not advertising. You got to get word of mouth out and you got to go talk to builders. You got to go talk to people who are property managers. Say, When you have a problem, call me, and here's the card. It doesn't cost you to get out there and put some shoe leather in your marketing. You need to get your income up because you're not making enough as part of the problem in this, but that's a side issue. Now, if you are going to do that, if you can become an exterminator while you're also working with a problem wildlife, then you got two pieces of your business model that you can put together. Maybe you can turn this into an actual job, at least an income that looks like a job. Okay, so what Rachel is saying, let's pretend your worst month was $1,000 a month on average, okay? Which that sounds like you've made more than that a lot of months, and it's just been a dry spell. Let's call it, let's say, then you would budget With his 5,000 and your 1,000, and then you would make a list of things you wanted to do that you did not get into that 6,000.

That list is prioritized from the very first thing I want to do if I get $1 more than 6,000. Then once I get that thing, then what's the very next thing, number two? The very next thing, number three, in that prioritized spending plan, then applies to your every dollar budget, and then you can get that moving. That'll drop into that paycheck planning part of the every dollar app and start to work for you. But really, what we're revealing more than anything else here is you don't really have a budgeting problem. You have an income problem. If you were making $8,000 a month and your worst month was $8,000, you probably wouldn't have called me saying, I have a budgeting problem, because you're just starving. You're not making... I mean, you're making $100, and then $1,000. You're not even making wages. You could make more than this working down at target. That's what your main issue is, and you're calling it a budgeting problem, but it's really an income problem.

Yeah. I would say, too, Leslie, if you start getting this up, we call it peaks and valley seasons of income, too. If you went and made 4,000 one month, we'll put 2,000 aside in a completely separate account. I would open up one if it's going to be fluctuating this much. Then on a down month, that you have 1,000, you can pull 1,000 from that account from the previous month to get what you guys need, to make it a little bit more consistent. You have to be disciplined in that.

Or if you're just living on your husband's income- Yeah, and yours is just extra. Then the hills and valleys won't matter. But they just matter how much you can apply to other things that advance you. Matthew's in South Bend, Indiana. Hi, Matthew. How are you?

Hello. Thank you. Thanks for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

Doing good. How would you recommend paying for dental school when I don't have enough money to cash flow the entire amount?

The first thing is that dental school, medical school, nursing school, law school, what they fall for when they're pursuing one of those lofty degrees is they're just so thrilled if they get accepted somewhere that they don't even look at the price. The first thing is look at the price because there's a vast spectrum of dental school. You can spend 600,000, you can spend 200,000 to get through. It is very expensive. Dental school is expensive. It's inordinately expensive. It's more expensive than getting an MD, is what we run into. But even then, I'm going to look for the cheapest possible dental school, number one. Number two, I'm going to start studying the dental industry, the labs, the suppliers, the vendors, and find who's got scholarships. There's not many of them, but there are some. I've heard some wonderful stories of people going and doing that.

I've heard. I actually ran into a lady in the Cracker Barrel restroom. True story.

More information than I needed.

We went to Cracker Barrel, and I went to the bathroom. This lady She stopped me. She was like, Are you Rachel Cruz? I said, Yes. She's like, I'm here. She went on. She said, I just graduated. True story, Matthew, from dental school. She said, I worked for the college, and she's graduating debt-free. She worked for the school.

If you work for the school, you get free tuition.

I was like, No way. She was like, Yes. Because I hear these stories. Every now and then we'll hear it. I remember tucking that one away. I was like, I'm going to remember that next time someone calls about dental school because that was her. She was right there, and she said that she graduated and completely debt-free. There's these other avenues to Matthew that you can see.

Just be thinking about a different, Matthew, than the way the standard dentists thinks about it, because they come out with five or $600,000 instead of their own debt. It is a long, hard life if you do that. If you don't believe me, go watch our Borrowed Future documentary You'll see a dentist there that's a million dollars in debt, and you'll see a grown man cry. It's really distressing. The good news is that guy has worked his way out of it. But wow, it was a mess. He was in. So you go watch Boreowed Future, and that'll scare you straight. This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love and create actual amazing relationships. Thank you for joining us, America. I am Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, co-host of the Smart Money Happy The Hour with the one and only George Campbell and my daughter. She's my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Chuck is in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Hi, Chuck. How are you?

I'm doing fine. How are you, Mr. Ramsey? Thanks for taking my call.

My pleasure. What's up?

Well, I'm considering paying off two vehicles that I have and my home, and my wife has been pushing me to do this, and I'm wondering if it's a good idea.

Paying off two vehicles, paying off your home, is it a good idea? Well, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

No. It would be coming out of my IRA, so I'd be paying taxes on it.

That's part of it. How old are you?

I'm 65, and my wife is 67.

How much would it take to pay off your vehicles?

If I have a two vehicles, it'd be 30,000.

Okay, and how much to pay off your house?

If it was 2,000, it'd be 40.

Forty on the house?

Yeah. I figured it'd be 80,000 for my IRA to pay off.

So 70,000 plus taxes? Correct. Okay. How much is in your total nest egg?

I have about 15,000 in non-taxable savings and probably $980,000 in annuities in two different investment companies. Okay.

You're a millionaire. Where'd it go?

Well, close, but yeah.

No, you are. You've got equity in your house, too.

Yeah, that's true.

You have a net worth of over a million dollars. What's your home worth?

Probably about $300,000.

Yeah. Okay. You're worth about a million, too. Good for you. Well done.

Oh, thank you.

Well done.

My son has been pushing me. I call him Dave Ramsey Jr. Because he's been listening to your program and he paid out all his money.

So these people are And your wife is telling you to do this also, or you're wanting to do this?

She's been wanting to do this. My son has been convincing me to do this based on your… But he told me I should get your opinion.

Okay, I got you. All right. Yeah. Well, the answer to the question is pretty simple, is I would pay off the car in the house by morning before the close of business today. No question, because you'd have $900,000 left over and everything's paid for. But more importantly than what Dave Ramsey thinks, because it's not really an issue, is why would you do that? Well, number one question is, why would you not do that? What's the downside? There's not really a downside. If your home was paid for and your cars were paid for and you had $900,000 in your investments, you wouldn't go borrow $80,000 to enhance your investments. No. Well, in essence, it's the same thing.

And regardless of low interest rates and things like that.

Well, I mean, you wouldn't go borrow regardless of low interest rate.

Yeah, that's true.

And so by asking the question in reverse, That's called a sunk cost analysis. It makes me think, Oh, yeah, I need to pay it off. And for the very reasons that I wouldn't go borrow if it was all paid for on it to enhance my investments, it's the same reasons I'm going to cash out $80,000 worth of the investments to be being debt-free. It's the exact same analysis.

Yeah, okay.

. The other thing is, if I'm wrong and your son's wrong and your wife's wrong and you hate being debt-free, you can go back in to that.

No, no interest in any more.

Well, I mean, it's not hard. You know that. You're a millionaire. You just call up the banker and you'd have a mortgage by the end of the next day, right? They would love to loan you money, dude. You're You're the guy they're after, right?

What makes you not, Chuck, what makes you not want to do it? It's just because the car payments, it's not painful every month, you just don't care.

I guess paying the taxes.

No, I hate it, too.

Instead of leaving it and compounding in the mutual fund.

Sure.

Truthfully, you've protected that nest egg like an eagle. I mean, you wouldn't let nothing near that nest egg. That's how it got to be freaking 980 grand, right? Because you protected it. You put money in it. You kept putting money in it. You've kept your claws out. Nobody's touching this. Now these people are trying to get you to touch it, and you're going, I don't think so. This is not how I got here. That's truthfully, one of your greatest strengths is turning into a bit of a weakness in this particular discussion. But I'm so proud of you. I'm assuming you didn't inherit a bunch of money. I'm assuming you did all this on your Yeah, my wife and I worked and put a significant amount in my IRA.

In the last four or five years that I worked, I maxed it all as much as I could. Yeah, that's great.

I'm so proud of it.

It's awesome, Chuck. Well done.

I wanted to pay it off before I was done working, but I didn't, so here I am.

I'll give you one last thing for the people out there listening and for you, too. Something else is going to happen here that you hadn't even thought about because the debt is so small as a part what you're doing. It's like buying a biscuit. We're talking about what? Compared to your total nest egg, you got a million three, a million two, and we're taking 80 grand. We're taking 80 grand. It's so small, it's irrelevant, really, mathematically speaking. But what you're not going to see coming is about three weeks after you pay this house off, you're going to wake up and go, I can breathe a little deeper. Because the borrower-My life gets Now, the borrower is slave to the lender, and you're not going to be a slave anymore. You're going to be able to feel that down inside. You'll physically feel it, probably, because you've been so long at this, and now it's like, Last step. There's a relaxing- No bank in your life. There's a peace that goes with it.

Yeah. Just to say it out loud, people probably know, but even for those that are listening, they're newer. We say, Don't take money out of your retirement to pay off debt. But he's of age. When you're past 59 and a half, then you're able to take money out. Yes, he's still going to be taxed on it because it's a traditional IRA. But if you're younger than 59 and a half, you don't touch your retirement to pay off debt.

No. And if your nest egg is too small, if your nest egg was 120,000, I wouldn't pull 80 out of it. Yeah, that's right.

Because you have to live on that on retirement.

I might sell the cars, but I'm not pulling 80 out of 120. The point is, it's a very small It's more of a theoretical and emotional discussion for him than it is mathematical because it's just such a small percentage. So the math really is irrelevant in this. It's more of a, man. I did it. I became a millionaire in America as a working man, and I saved my money, and we piled up a bunch of money in the last few years of work, he said.

I'm not touching that, and now I am going to touch it to pull the money out.

That's emotional. But he did it. Now I'm debt free, and the house is paid for, and the cars are paid for. It's like, Touch down. Yeah. Touch down, baby. I mean, you just broke the tape on the marathon after 26.3 miles. You just broke the tape. You leaned into it, baby. Well done. Touch down. I love it. This is the Ramsey Show. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. We are glad Glad you are with us. Well, if you are on Baby Step 4, which means you're out of debt, everything but the house, and you have your emergency fund in place, fully funded at 3-6 months of expenses, that's one, two, and three. That means you're at Baby Step 4, you're starting to invest for retirement. Five is kids' college, six is pay off the house early, or seven is your debt-free everything. If you're anywhere in four and beyond, we invite you to live like no one else because we tell to live like no one else so that later you can live and give like no one else. That's the idea, right? We have the Live Like No One Else Cruise.

Yeah, that's right. We're going on Holland America, which is a fabulous line. We're going to Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, San Juan, the Bahamas, all the Ramsey personalities, plus a bunch of other special guests like my friend Stephen Curtis Chapman is going to hang out with us, my friend Monique Shohan from the Food channel, Iron Chef winner, Dina Carter, famous, remember, Strawberry famous country singer, yeah, is going to be with us, and several other people. Quite a boat load of stars, including all the Ramsey personalities. We're going to be doing events on the boat through the whole time, talks on the boat. It's going to be incredible. It's a ship. Don't quit calling it a boat. My wife gives me a hard time. Anyway, the thing is almost sold out. It's not yet sold out, but it's 70% gone. It's only been up for sale for three and a half weeks. It is next March 22 through 29 of 2025. Go to ramsey solutions. Com/cruise before the cabins are gone, because they're going to be gone. We would love to have you if you're Baby Step 4 and beyond. Please do not We need a debt to do this.

We don't need your money that bad. You can come on another one. And please don't do this if you don't have your emergency fund in place and you're in debt. So it's baby step four and beyond. Live like no one else so later you can live and give like no one else. So this is the live like no one else, Cruz. We're not hypocrites. We're not trying to get people to do something they can't afford to do. We want to give you a place to celebrate, though, for those of you that have made the journey with us, and you're further up the baby steps. It's going to be a lot of fun. We're going to have a blast. All the Ramsey personalities are going to be on this ship the entire week, including Sharon and I. We would love to have you guys to come as our guest. Lucas is with us in Nashville. Hi, Lucas. Welcome to the Ramsey Hey, Virgil.

Hey, Dave. How are you all doing?

Great, man. What's up?

I work in the media industry for about 13 years, and I made a move to Nashville because I'm trying to switch industries over in the aviation industry. I'm a private pilot, and I'm trying to finish it up my training to do that full-time. Paul moving here took a job, was looking for something like either remote or part-time, just to add supplemental funds to be able to fund the training. And started at a business. It was fantastic. And ended up going into that, taking on a lot more roles, and Got integrated into the business. Here about two months ago, the owner let me know that he wasn't going to be able to pay me, and that he'd be able to get money soon. But since then, I'm three paychecks behind, and I'm in a position where I felt like if I leave or say something about it, then I'm putting the last stake into the company and hurting the friendship that I've built, but also aware that it's slowing down my life goals.

No, it's not life goals. That's not the problem. The problem is friends don't do this to people.

I'm with you.

So you haven't built a friendship. You've built a relationship and you care about these people, but they're not taking care of you.

100%.

Yeah. What you're describing to me is you're not really getting much communication about… Because, dude, if somebody's not paying me, I want to know a lot of detail as to why.

That's where I'm at.

And you're not getting it.

Because I've personally signed clients, signed a quarter million in clients, so I'm like, Where's the money?

That's a fair question. I don't think you're going to be there in 30 days, but if you want to give it one last hey, oh, Mary, it would be sitting down in person with the owner and saying, Okay, I am officially done unless you clue me in on every detail here. Because I signed a quarter million dollars worth of people, and I can't figure out why I didn't get paid. Where's the money? Yeah. It's a fair question.

Yeah, that's where I'm at. I'm trying to get to a place where I'm not feeling responsible for- You're not responsible.

That's it. That's the part, Lucas, for me, that I'm like, Yes, is your work there vital? And is it the linchpin on a lot of what's going on? Possibly because you're good at your job. But that's not your responsibility. That's not your responsibility to hold the company together. That's the freaking owner and CEO's That's your responsibility. So for you, I'm like, I would not. That's emotional bandwidth that you don't need to have. I mean, you don't. You are a team member. They're on the team. But if Lucas leaves and the whole thing dissolves, that's not your fault, Lucas.

That's not your fault. And by the way, you didn't just up and leave because you were mean.

You didn't get paid.

You've been working for free. Hello. There's a lot- And they're probably taking advantage of you.

You sound like a nice guy, but they're probably taking advantage of you, too, Lucas, to a degree.

I don't think you're going to make it there, and I don't think they're going to stay open.

I don't either. Hearing that, it just confirms. I have a feeling that I am doing it to myself. I'm going to be putting myself into it like that. I have a track record for getting 100% in the- Well, it's okay.

Hey, I love getting people given 100%, but you got to think about what you're giving 100% to. You're not getting 100% back. You're not even getting 50% You're not even getting a paycheck back.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like if the tables were turned and you were the owner and your back was against the wall and one of your key people was on the other side and you couldn't pay them, I know what Lucas would do after talking to him for just a few minutes. You would give a thorough, detailed explanation and say, If you'll join arms with me in this and help me turn the corner, I'll make it worth your while. It's going to be a minute till we get this other thing to clear, and I'll show you what it is. You would tell them what the flip is going on.

Or we're in a bad position, Lucas, and it's not good for you to be here, so we're going to have to let you go. We can't afford to keep you. I pray you go make more money somewhere else.

That's another one of your things. If I actually love you, then I want what's good for you. Yes.

Is it being bad to myself or dumb to me? If it's financially, I can stick it out to try to help in any way I can with what little communication I have.

Well, I don't think- To try to get us the turn. They haven't earned you with the way they've treated you. If you wanted to donate some of your time, so to speak, because you're able to, in order to help this business turn, because you believed in these people. But, dude, the people you're describing to me, I don't believe in them.

I'm with you.

Because you You need more than just, Oh, this is all going to work out, dude. Yeah. While I cash $250,000 worth of checks and you don't get paid, I can figure it out. No. I need an explanation. It's a Jerry Maguire moment. Show me the money. It's like, whew.

This isn't even your end goal of a career track, right?

You just got sucked into it. It was supplement, yeah. But he cares. Thank God. A team member that cares. That's wonderful. He cares about the people. Sure. That's wonderful. He cares about the people.

Thank Yeah, but they're taking advantage of it. Oh, they're definitely.

I don't know whether it's a lack of business acumen, lack of basic relational skills. Something sketchy. Or they're crooked or all three. But you're due a lot more explanation, detail, than just, Hang on, it's going to be all right. No, not. I'm not going to do that. This is the Ramsey Show. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Today's question of the day comes from Denise in Ohio.

She says, My husband refuses to sit down and talk about a budget. He doesn't want limitations on how he can spend our money. I never know when I'm going to come home and find a new vehicle in our driveway. Jeez. He has two muscle cars, a truck, several all-terrain vehicles, motorcycles, and plans on always having a car or motorcycle payment. This has forced me to separate our finances because I have no doubt that he would find a way to spend my money along with his. We both contribute a portion of our income to pay bills. He wants to be in charge of that, but is regularly late on payments. Lately, he's been telling me not to put money in my 401(k), or I'll lose everything. He doesn't have any retirement savings except what he invests in silver. I don't know what to do, but make sure that I have secure retirement.

I don't know what to do. D-i-v-o-r-c-e. That's the only way you're going to be secure in retirement. This guy's-He's out of control. No, you're not married to a man. You're married to a child. I want to buy me a big truck, and you can't tell me I can't buy a big truck, mama. You can't tell me nothing. The world's going to come to an end anyway, so I'm going to put my money in silver. It's a freaking four-year-old. This guy's disgusting. He's disgusting. I don't know what you're still doing there. You're married to the equivalent of an alcoholic who does cocaine. I mean, this is so out of control. Such self self-centered behavior, such immature behavior, it's hard to measure. The only hope you've got is to sit down and see a marriage counselor and let them give you the words to guide him into the marriage counseling office with your pastor or with a good marriage counselor that's trained or however. I don't care. But someone needs to be giving you words other than me because I'm just so pissed at this guy right now. He's useless. But Unless he changes, if you stay married to him, you're going to be broke your whole life and frustrated because the anger is dripping out of it.

Well, and just The selfishness in it all. Not only does he not want to talk about it, he's making decisions without you, all of this. That's not just with the money side. That's probably happening in every part of your marriage.

This guy does whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. He has no limitations on him whatsoever by anyone. He likes one person on the planet himself. Selfish is what we call that. It's the opposite of selfless. I can't even imagine what Winston Cruz would do if you came in and started acting the way this guy's acting.

Or if he, Winston Cruz came home acting the way he's acting. I mean, either way. Yeah, I can't even imagine. It's just a spouse. Well, it's just a spouse. That's the thing that's so hard. Not only is the financial decision that he's literally making in reality of buying very expensive things, not saving all of that, but let alone the spouse that's like, why- Just disrespect. Well, and it's just the spouse, too, that just says that first line, he refuses to even talk about the budget. Even that in and of itself- I do what I want to do. Is showing, yes, this level that you're not seeing marriage as a team at that point, and she's suffering. Denise suffers because of that.

Denise, if you were my little sister, and I loved you, which I do, I would say, I don't want your marriage to end, but I think your husband has chosen to end it. What I would tell you to do is to go see a marriage counselor, and he won't go because he won't do anything that's not about him. The marriage counselor is going to guide you in a proper, not a radio answer or a podcast answer, in a proper series of steps to confront and ultimately lead to what we call an ultimatum, which is either, Baba, you're going to get in marriage counseling with me, and we're going to start handling our stuff together, and we're going to both have a say in this, and you're going to start respecting my viewpoint, not just yours. And either those things are going to happen, and we're going to start handling money together, and we're going to start being wiser, or I'm not going to be here. So you are going to choose to be divorced, sir, if you don't agree to make some changes. That's what you're telling him. The result of you continuing to do this is going to be, I'm gone.

And you need someone to guide you in that process, not me, not just me getting fired up at this guy. I don't want to transfer that to you. But you need to sit down with a coach, a counselor, a marriage counselor that can guide you much better than I can, or Rachel can, but will guide you in a series of conversations with your husband that lead to finally saying, either you stop this behavior and we get on the same page and we go to marriage counseling where you start respecting me and loving me as much as you love you, or we're going to call this, I'm done. Because you're going to... Fast forward this in your mind, Denise, 20 years to see where you all are. You have a lot of rusty trucks in the yard. That's where you are 20 years from now.

It's sad. He chooses that over you. I mean, it's what it ends up being, and it's really sad.

Yeah, this guy's got issues. His mommy and daddy never told him no. How dare his wife be a grown up? Now, that's what's going on. When I was growing up, they don't say this anymore. It's a saying people don't use anymore, that if you never tell your child no and you buy them everything, They do not learn the ability to have self-discipline because they've never had discipline. When I was growing up, we call that so and so was a spoiled child.

People say that.

Like spoiled mayonnaise. Have you ever spelled spoiled mayonnaise? It stinks to high heaven. Spoiled children stink worse because they become Denise's spouse later. That's what this is. This is a spoiled, brat little boy that you chose poorly when you married.

No, really.

I mean, seriously.

You never know. No, I'm not saying that because I don't know. I don't know the story of that, but he sucks now.

There's no question about that. Connor is in many Hey, Connor. How are you?

Connor.

Hey, what's up?

I'm looking to save some money to invest in some form of entrepreneurship after I graduate College next May. Currently, I'm caught between buying a vehicle to see my family and friends on the weekend back home or staying at college to complete this internship I committed without buying a car to maximize the money I can make.

How much money are you saving up for your entrepreneurial endeavors, sir?

Well, I would be able to save five grand this summer, additionally, if I didn't buy a car.

You're going to buy a car that's five grand?

That's probably where it would go, yes. Yeah. Okay.

That's okay. If you don't have a car and you buy a $5,000 car and you pay cash for it, I would buy the car. You'll find a way to do the other entrepreneurial things. You'll scratch the money together. It may delay that a little bit, but what you're doing is not unreasonable. You're in college, and if you delay starting a business a little bit so you have a $5,000 car, that's not an unreasonable decision, sir.

Okay.

I'm all about business. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. I started cutting grass when I was 12. I've been self-employed, straight commission just about my whole life, all but about three or four months, probably. Actually, I did have a real job one time, but didn't last. I I believe in you. I want you to be an entrepreneur in the future, but I don't think this $5,000 decision is going to keep your dreams from coming true. As a matter of fact, it might actually facilitate your dreams coming true. As you can actually get around, you have transportation. Hang on. I'm going to send you a copy of the book, Entree Leadership, that was a number one best seller. It's how I grew my business. And so since you're a great future entrepreneur, I'm going to help you with that as my gift. This is the Ramsey Show. I know you work hard for your money, and the key to keeping more of it in your pocket is by making a plan for your spending with a budget. And EveryDollar is the budgeting app that I use personally because it's perfect for looking every dollar you make in its little President face and telling it exactly where you want it to go.

Just like you told that guy in traffic exactly where you wanted him to go. And even better, every dollar walks you through the entire budgeting journey so you always know your next right step. Download every dollar for free in the App Store or Google Play today. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Matthew is in Springfield, Missouri. Hey, Matthew, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hello.

Hi, what's up?

Well, recently, I found out I was having a baby and got engaged, and she has a daughter of her own from before we were together. So I started getting serious. I own a construction business, started getting serious about paying some stuff off. The baby's making me sweat a little bit because it ain't just me anymore.

Good for you.

I had to take care of.

Good man.

Well, I've had a construction business and had a ton of debt, had about 30 employees. We're doing four to five million dollars a year for about three years in revenue. And for '23, I thought I was on my high horse, thought I was it, and taking on a lot of debt. And then things slowed up last year. I had to lay off, continue to lay off more and more people, and it just snowballed down.

What was the debt for?

Oh, just random things like business loans. A lot of it was equipment that I'm currently liquidating most of it the best I can.

How much debt have you got?

Altogether, including my personal, is 360,000.

Honey, it's all personal. You sign for every bit of it. Some of it's in the business bucket, but the bank doesn't call it that. They call it... They have Matthew on the hook. So 360, do you own a home?

Yes, I do.

Is that part of the 360?

No, that is not.

You have 360,000 not counting your house on what?

Just the own vendors and getting behind. I had a bad dealing. A guy owes me 120 grand, went to court, got a judgment. Now we're trying to collect on the judgment. It's mostly vendors and subs. It's equipment.

How much do you owe on your equipment?

On equipment, things that I could sell right now is about 73,000.

I'm sorry. Why couldn't you sell all of it?

Well, right now, I'm upside down on most of it.

How much do you owe on equipment?

73,000 is what I got.

No, you said that's what you could sell. You owe more than that on equipment.

No, 73,000 is what I owe on the equipment.

That's everything on the equipment. You have vendor debt to the tune of $290,000.

In a $120,000.

Judgment lien that's an asset.

Yeah, so 170s left. How much of it is just- He's not getting that judgment.

But that's okay. Anyway, I don't think you're going to collect on that judgment. Do you, Matthew?

Well, we'll hear next week. The bank is supposed to respond.

The guy you sued doesn't have any money.

Yeah, I would assume so.

Yeah, I would assume so, too. So you're not going to get any money. Lawsuits don't make people have money that they don't have. Yeah. So you're not getting that money. So what have you been making profit in the last 12 months?

I don't really know exactly the answer to that. It's been a downward, up and down. And then about, I would say October last year, it fell off a cliff. I know my monthly revenue has been about $250,000 for the last part of last year each month, then it went down and down. Right now, it's about $40,000 a month.

Okay. What were you doing that was $200,000 a month in revenue?

We were building custom homes, multimillion dollar custom homes. That is what we were specializing in at the time.

How many homes do you have now that are just spec out there?

I don't own any. I don't even actually have any new construction projects going on at the moment.

Okay. Here's the thing. It sounds like, and I work with entrepreneurs all the time, we've got about 10,000 of them in our Entree Leadership program. It sounds like you're really good at building houses. It sounds like you're a very hardworking guy, and you really suck at running the business.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

That's what it sounds like, because you don't know any of your numbers. You don't know where the money is coming from. I grew up in the building in real estate business, and I can't figure out how you thought you were making $200,000 a month building custom homes. Because if you build a $5 million custom home, if your builder's fee on that's 500 grand, 600 grand, it's going to take you 18 months to build that house, typically. And that's not 200,000 a month. And you'd have to be rolling these things off one a month, rolling off the end of the line to be making that money.

No, that was gross. I'm sorry. I meant that was my gross revenue, including like Money that came in and I had to pay subs, and I had to pay a lot.

We had that one time. Okay, that's the customer paying you for building their house, and you're supposed to pay the subs that built their house. It's not even your money.

Yeah, that was just my revenue.

No, it's not your revenue. It was money coming in. It was money... Your revenue is money that your company is actually making in profit. Your revenue is the builder fee. Your revenue is not the $2 million it takes to build the That's the customer's money. Follow me? Yeah. Okay, so you never thought. How many houses a year were you building?

Last year, we had 10 total start, finish, and then just various remodel projects in between a couple of framing jobs.

You don't have anything going right now?

Right now, I got one addition. It really interest rates went up, and building came to a halt in my area for the area that I was working in. Now, I'm trying to get some more work, framing or doing something elsewhere, but I'm down just two or four weeks.

The 75,000. The vendors that haven't been paid, those are actually... You're in a mess. Those are actually customers money that you've used.

Yeah, the vendor that It's roughly, I don't know exactly.

Yeah, like subs. Subs that did work on my house that you were building for me and you didn't pay them, they're going to put a lien on my house. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. This is really dangerous. Okay. Scary stuff. Wow. You had no bookkeeping system systems and processes, nobody watching the flow of cash. Nobody watching the flow of cash. It knew what they were doing, and it just money coming in, money going out. When the music stopped, there weren't enough chairs.

Do you saw people on payroll, Matthew?

Just two people. I laid everybody off. That was W2 employees.

That's good. I'm sorry. What I come to realize- How old are you?

I'm 23.

What do you… I mean, seriously, do you liquidate the assets, like your home that you have?

What is the equipment that you own? The 70,000?

It was pretty much enclosed trailers. All enclosed trailers. I've already sold the Skid Steer, the Goose Neck. I've already sold those, but I didn't have any loans on those. Those were all cash. I paid for in cash.

You mean like an 18-wheeler trailer that you're using for storage on sites?

There's enclosed trailers that you pull behind pickups. I have quite a bit of them. I think seven at one time.

Okay. They're all up for sale and you're trying to get them sold for whatever, but they're not going to bring the full 70.

Yeah, that's where I'm at.

What do you owe on your pickup?

That or I could let them get repossessed. I really don't.

No, you need sell them because when they repossess them, they're going to sell them for nothing and show you for the difference. What do you owe on your pickup?

On my truck, I owe 12,000.

Okay. All right. You're going to have to go all the way back to the beginning and start your business over because you were really good at it when it was small. And go from there. I'm going to give you an entree leadership coach to help you as my gift because I want to help you turn this thing around for this baby because I've been 20 and scared and I didn't know what I was doing. I've been right where you are. Hang on. Kelly's going to pick up. We'll get you with one of our entree leadership people and help you walk through this, untangle all this barrel of fish hooks. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality number one, best-selling I'm Arthur, host to The Rachel Cruz Show, and my daughter is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Benjamin is with us in Los Angeles. Hi, Benjamin. Welcome to The Ramsey Show.

Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure. How can we help?

I'm brand new to the trying to get out of debt and change my life. Probably only been listening to you guys for maybe two or three months. I come from a not wealthy background. My father doesn't even have a retirement, so I've got to try to plan to take care of him when he can't stop working. Me and my wife just had twins about seven months ago.

Well, congrats.

Thanks. But my question comes from, I am trying to start me and my family off with Baby Step One of trying to get ourselves a lot of debt and moving forward, but my wife doesn't fully feel on board to change our living and thinks we're just doing fine when we're going paycheck to paycheck. I'm wondering, how do I get her on board with this idea and help navigate that whole situation?

Do you handle most of the finances, Benjamin, in the house?

So She won't allow us to combine them. She has her paycheck that pays our mortgage, and then I am supposed to cover all of the other bills with my paycheck.

How old are you guys?

I'm 34.

How long are you all been married?

Four years.

She's how old?

She's 23.

You've been married four years.

I was sorry. She's 24. We got married when she was 20. Okay.

All right. So you all are a 10-year difference age-wise? Yeah. Okay. She's probably not feeling because she said she's not feeling the paycheck to paycheck, and she's probably not if she's making a better income and her only bill is the mortgage, and she's just living her life. You're the one that's feeling more of the tension. I I think that's an issue in and of itself that I think would be fair for you to sit down and talk about the... It's the why behind Benjamin. I mean, that's what we always say to start with. Your why of wanting to do this is what? Because you're stressed, because you're scared if something happens, you know you're not going to be able to take care of this family? What's the why for you from wanting to even engage a different process financially?

The why for me is just that we just had kids, and my car needs some work. I have picked up a second. I've started hanging TVs and doing contract IT work in order to put stuff together.

What normally happens when someone first finds us and they start getting really excited about what their future could look like if they were out of debt and in control with their money because they're in debt and out of control with their money, and they run into their spouse all excited and jumping up and down in the kitchen and say, I'm going to sell your car. They run into the kitchen all excited, jumping up and down, start talking about what we need to do. We need to get on a budget. We need to cut our spending. We need to get in control. You start talking about the what. Rachel was saying, You probably led with the what. If you did that, you're normal, by the way. That happens a lot. If you led with the what, you've turned my name into a cussword in your house. Got you. Okay. Okay. Instead, reset, go in and say, Honey, I approach this whole subject that's really important to me poorly with you. I goof in how I approached you with it, and I'm really sorry. You owe an apology. Then reset and say, And the reason I'm so excited about this stuff, and I I think it's really important for us to work together is because I'm scared to death.

We've got two kids. I'm out hanging freaking TVs at 34 years old because I'm scared and our money is out of control. I don't see a good future of us running this household separately. I don't see a good future if we keep doing things the way we've been doing them. I don't like it the way it is, and it's really bothering me When I found this stuff, it gave me a little bit of hope, and I got a little too excited, maybe. But, honey, I can't keep going like this. This is killing me. That's a why.

Yeah.

That's a why. I want to be a good dad. I want to provide for our children. I want to retire with several million dollars and sit on a golden rocking chair. That's a why. We got to sit down, we got to get on a budget, We got to get this stuff going. We need to work these baby steps. Those are what's. If she hears your heart and then turns a cold shoulder to you, you don't have a money problem. You've got a marriage problem. The phrase you used a while ago ran a chill down my spine. My 23-year-old wife won't allow, you said. Yeah, To which I almost laughed. Okay? That's how crazy that is.

On either side. Yeah. She says, My husband... Because we, Benjamin, get on people that say- My husband won't allow. Yeah. If there's a lady that calls in, My husband won't allow X, Y, and Z.

I've been married 43 years. If I told my wife I wouldn't allow her to do something, I'd wake up dead.

You wouldn't wake up? Well, so, Benjamin, honestly, I think that first part is important, the why. And any spouse, this is true with anyone that we get a call, if you can't go to your spouse and say, Here's my fear, and it's vulnerable, right? Here's my fears. Here's what is scaring me. My hopes and my dreams. Here's what I'm excited about. Here's what I think could happen. When you do all of that and they still just, meh, and some will, then again, that's a marriage topic. That's not a money problem. You got a marriage problem. But then number two, Benjamin, too, you have to paint the vision for her as well. Show her not just not the what or the why, but the how. So just get a sheet of paper out and just put some numbers down realistically and say, Hey, okay, here's what- Here's why I'm excited. Here's what we make combined. Here are our bills. Here's our debt. If we had this much margin, we could be completely debt-free. That frees up X amount of payments per month, 1,200, 1,400, $2,000 of just payments that we have. And if we invested that, babe, by the time we're 45, that's what this could look like.

Kind of Do some math and just show her the vision on what you've captured it and bring her along in that. So say the why, say the why and the how. But if those aren't working, then yeah, then there's a... And you all are probably exhausted. I mean, you got seven-month-old twins. Oh, my gosh. I'm surprised you even put a sentence together. It's exhausting. So give yourself some grace in all of this. But for me, it's the why and the how that she needs to hear.

Lead with an apology for having done this wrong, and then explain to her this really matters a lot, and I need you to hear me, and she'll hear you. You'll be okay. This is the Ramsey Show. It's the last call for our two-night virtual event, Dave Ramsey's Investing Essentials. It's set for May 21 and 22, and you do not want to miss this. I'll unpack my personal playbook on investing and real estate, and show you how you can feel confident in your investments, too. Tickets are $1.99. Snag a VIP ticket and you'll get two sessions with a Ramsey-preferred coach. You can join from anywhere. Go to ramseysolutions. Com/events and get your ticket today. Well, I think it's been almost 20 years ago, I've read a book called Thou Shall Prosper, and I started talking about on the air what a wonderful book it was. The author called me up and he said, Who are you? I love you. My book is selling. He and I became great friends. Rabbi Daniel Lappin and I have been friends for… It's got to be 20 years, isn't it? Probably. It sounds right. Get down into that microphone. Get down into it.

Yeah, sorry.

It's okay.

It's been probably 20 years, right? Yeah. I'm thinking almost. It's got to be… That would be 2002, 2000. No, it's not quite that long. It's probably 15 years, something like that. Anyway, I don't know. Brand new book came out. Otterly enough, rabbi is an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, and the Book Thou Shal Prosper is his main… Or the book that made you in terms in terms of-With your help. Well, it's a fabulous book. It's one of my top 10 faves of all time. I ended up writing the forward when you reissued it later. Yes. But this book came out, the new book, The Holistic You, Integrating your Family, Finances, Faith, and Friendship, and Fitness, sadly came out October the eighth by an Orthodox Jewish rabbi after October the seventh. Really bad timing, rabbi.

Awfully bad timing. You can't rely on to get anything right.

Okay, I'm with you on that. I like it. So good stuff. You taught us in Thou Shal Prosper so thoroughly to not be ashamed of earning as a result of serving. I think one of my favorite quotes was, If you do a good job for folks in business, they give you certificates of appreciation with president's faces on them. Right. You've written a lot of best-selling books about money and business and other practical life lessons that are woven all through there from the Hebrew Bible, what we call the Old Testament, and as Christians, and you call the Bible. That's where you and I have had a lot of common ground, a lot of wonderful discussions, fireside and over dinners with our wives and everything else. We've just become great friends. What is it that the holistic you goes into that you haven't done in these other It's the 30,000-foot view.

It's zooming out a little bit and relating to the idea that our lives are actually a complex system. It's not as if these are separate components. In just the same way, nobody would say, your heart is one thing and your liver is something else, your lungs is something else. You're going to see a heart specialist and say, look, this is what you need. Take this meds and it's great. It's going to wreck your kidney function, but it's going to be great for your heart. You get out of there as quickly as you can because I want a doctor who sees the whole me, not just a little part of me. Our lives are very much like that as well. We had a woman who became a coaching client of ours who came to us because she said she's done everything right. She did really well at college. She got into the business school of her choice. She focused. She graduated top in business administration. She came out with a really great MBA, and she says other people who didn't perform nearly at her level were getting much better job offers than she was. That alerted her to the fact that there's something real going on.

What's going wrong is that while some of her colleagues were attending birthday parties or celebrations, connecting with other people, building up their own personalities, in the final analysis, when you interview somebody for a job, you're not just looking at grades and GPAs from college. There's a subtle emotional, psychological connection that is the result of everything that you have done with your life because everything you do contributes to making you who you are. Here's a girl who is terrific, I mean, very, very accomplished, but only unidimensionally. She was excellent academically. I mean, She could do a bond yield analysis in her head. I mean, she was really good.

But her relational IQ was just not there.

But the rest, it just wasn't. She couldn't talk about anything else. She didn't have any hobbies. She didn't have any interest. She'd really deliberately neglected all the other aspects of her life. That's why we condensed the complexity of a human life into the five fundamentals of family, finance, faith, fitness, and friendships.

One of the things that, Rachel, I do a lot of controversial things, as you know. Oh, I'm shocked. I preach financial heresy all the time to the financial pharisees out there. But Rachel is not as nearly as controversial She's more likable. People love Rachel. But the one thing that she gets the most hate on is when she suggests, dares to suggest that couples combine their finances and not run them separately. She actually used a phrase pretty similar to what you've used here in the book, that if you can share a bed, you can share a bank account.

She's exactly right. Yes, and we go further. We say you have to. We do, too. That's absolutely essential.

Walk through that because we talk about this a lot. Why is it so essential? Even just two segments ago, we had this exact call. We get this call once or twice a show sometimes about a spouse.

It's becoming not only are fewer and fewer people getting married now, but many who are getting married- Aren't acting like it. Are acting and also aren't sure whether they're roommates or married.

Yeah, that's what I mean. They aren't acting like they're married.

There's a proliferation of lawyers drawing up prenup contracts. I mean, that That's a fine way to go into a marriage. Again, if it's a second marriage or third marriage, and they're lots of assets and children, complexities exist. But ordinarily, when a young couple marries, you would have thought it would be with a wholehearted bonding. We're not talking roommates. Okay, this is really, really important stuff. The reason that you have to share the bank account as well as the bed, and frankly, leaving one is just as ridiculous as omitting the other. But the reason there is because there's something very different about how men and women typically relate to money. Not that a woman doesn't enjoy earning money, not that a woman can't be particularly good at her career and Excel at it, but it doesn't do anything directly to her sexual feminine identity. When a man makes money. It is a very intrinsic, masculine-related thing to him. The evidence of that, of course, is the reverse. Unfortunately, we've seen places, regions where steel as an industry has collapsed. One of the things we know, unfortunately, is that when a male loses the capacity to earn money, loses a job, heaven forbid, there is almost inevitably a sexual dysfunction that it companies that.

It's almost inevitable. Never with a woman. When a woman loses a job, it's painful, it's problematic, she's worried, she's embarrassed, but it doesn't hurt.

But the way money is identified with us is different. And so learning to work as a team, though, is crucial in the unity of the marriage to say, Hey, we both are in this together, and we are coming at it wholeheartedly into this marriage. So every part of our marriage, to your point, from my health, the way I want to raise my kids, all of that has to be in line with my husband, and together we see it and we're a team.

No, clearly. I've got to say that maybe many of the people who get upset when you speak about these things are people who've almost lost contact with their essential feminine natures. It's easy to do. Men can lose contact with their masculine natures and become incapable. A lot of the people in the news on campuses today are right there.

Because I do hear from specifically on the women's side of hearing this message, if something happens, I have to make sure that I protect myself. It's almost this fear element there. Then for the guy, different reasons why. But I think that It is so key. You also talk about—I want to get this in before break—this work-life balance aspect, too, and how key that is. Yeah.

That actually is not what we talk about because we figure out anybody who can work a spreadsheet can draw up a work-life balance.

There you go.

That's not hard. Happy anniversary.

Happy anniversary. How many years you've been married?

Not telling you, because if I tell you, then you're going to know how old the wife is. But let's say it's over 44 and below 46 years.

Okay, there you go. I can probably figure that one out. I'm a math guy. Rabbi Daniel Lappin, the new book is called The Holistic You, Integrating your Family, Finances, Faith, Friendships, and Fitness. Anything this guy writes, I recommend. He's a good friend and an incredible thought leader. Be sure and check it out. This is the Ramsey Show. Hey, folks, the Total Money Makeover 20th anniversary edition is now here. I believe believe the success of this book is all about the hero stories, people who felt overwhelmed and stuck until they found the least complicated money book they ever read and learned how to work the plan and actually build wealth. Go to ramseysolutions. Com/ramsysolutions. Com/ramsysolutions. Com. Mystore to get the Total Money Makeover 20th Anniversary Edition and become one of the new Total Money Makeover heroes. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, and my daughter is my co-host today. The best way to make the most of your money is by doing it on purpose. That's called a plan, being intentional. In the money world, we call that a budget. Every dollar is our world-class budgeting app, the best budgeting app in the world.

It makes it simple to plan your spending, track your expenses, and hit your baby steps, and move through, and level up. You can keep a pulse on your spending and share everything with your spouse, make progress on your money goals with every dollar. Download every dollar for free in the App Store, or go to Google Play and do it, or you can even go to everydollar. Com and find everything you need. Tyler is in Pennsylvania. Hi, Tyler. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hey, how are you guys doing? Better than we deserve. What's up in your world? Not much.

To get the long story short, I'm 28, a full-time truck driver. Started a side business about eight months ago that worked out on the road. The only debt I have is 200,000 on a mortgage and $8,500 left on a camper land.

My mortgage is roughly $1,400 a month.

I'm paying $2,500 a month. And the camper is $280 a month, but I'm trying to pay that off in the next six or seven months. It was like a $1,250 monthly payment on it. The question is, once I pay the camper off, did I use that 12:50 and put it right on the mortgage or start reinvesting back in the 401k that I've pushed current for the last couple of years?

Stop paying extra on your mortgage. Throw all the money you can find anywhere in your budget at the camper and get it paid off quicker than you were planning to. Once it's paid off, you need to have an emergency fund of 3-6 months of expenses. That's what we call Baby Step 3. You're debt-free then everything but your house, and you have 3-6 months of expenses. Then Baby Step 4 is what you said. Start your 401k back over. Start it again. 15% of your income needs to be going into your 401k. Make it a Roth if you can and put it in good mutual funds. Then any money you find beyond the 15% going into the 401k with no payments now, but a house payment, now we start throwing extra money at the mortgage. But only after the camper is gone, you got the 401k restarted and the emergency fund in place. Only then do you do that. Gillian is in Atlanta. Hi, Gillian. How are you?

Hi, I'm good. Thank you. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Thanks for taking my call. I am calling because I make too much money to live paycheck to paycheck, and I need help getting back on track, and I don't know what I'm missing How much money do you make? I combined 148, my husband and I.

Okay. Good for you.

Have you guys written out a budget? Do you know where your money is going every month? Have you realized, Oh, my gosh, there's so much payments. You're seeing it happen and you're just trying to slow it down, or you don't even know that?

I don't even know that. I've been attempting a budget, and then I just got every dollar, but because I'm coming into it in the middle of the month, it's still a little confusing. Yeah, so I don't know where everything's going. We're not living lavishly.

No, you can disorganize your way out of 150 grand.

Yeah.

Yeah. How much debt do you guys have, Gillian?

Thirty-five thousand.

Okay, what's it in?

Five thousand in student loans, and 30,000 is my husband's truck.

How much is that car payment a month?

675.

Okay.

What's your house payment?

House payment is 2,000. Okay.

Nothing you're giving me here that is out of control. I mean, We've got some goals. We need to pay off the truck and the student loan, but nothing here is screaming stupid. It sounds like, mathematically, that your biggest problem is you guys are just not telling your money what to do. We always laugh and say a budget is people telling their money what to do instead of wondering where it went. You've just been wondering where it went, and now you woke up and you're disgusted with that, which is a really cool place for you. That means you're getting ready to change your life.

Yes. The second reason why I'm calling today, my husband is going to start getting monthly bonuses on top of it.

You're muffling. You need to speak direct into your phone. I can't hear you. The second reason you're calling is what?

My husband is about to start getting monthly bonuses on top of his salary, and so I want to make sure that we don't just mix that into everything that disappears every month, I want to be intentional with it.

You need to be intentional with all of it, yeah.

Yes.

Do you guys have a regular salary, or is it commission-based? Besides just the bonuses. Regular salary. Regular, okay. Well, that's the easiest part of budgeting, honestly, for so many people, the irregular income is where they get really tripped up. So we're in May right now, in the middle of the month. You're right. I would be looking and saying, Okay, in June, here's our budget, and you have your income, and I'm glad you have every dollar minus all of your expenses, including giving. And there'll be some savings. Do you guys have any savings at all?

Five thousand and a CD.

Okay. So I would take that down to a thousand, and go ahead and put a lot of this towards your student loan. And that's pretty much knocked out at that point, which is great. And then, yeah, you're going to be tracking, Julian, every single thing that you spend money on. And I would go back to April, February, March. Go back some months and see on average, what are you spending on groceries? On average, what are you guys spending out to eat? Get some averages and plug those into every dollar. But remember, those numbers were numbers when you weren't budgeting. So you're going to be able to say, Oh, my gosh, we spent that much going out to eat. Well, if we cut that completely out, maybe that'll take the student loan down to $500, because that'll be $500 we're not spending out to eat. We're going to put that towards the student loan. Your grocery budget, again, this is when you're not budgeting. So you're just going and getting what you want to Okay, what can we limit there? And you're going to start to see all these things trickle in of, Oh, my gosh, this is where it's going.

And you're going to be able to shore it up. And because you guys have this truck payment and this debt, I would go through that every dollar budget and start cutting columns, cutting these categories on the app that you don't need and to say and lowering dollar amounts.

We're going to hit this truck. We're going to hit this truck.

And the great thing about every dollar is it's going to show you at the top what's left. And so you're going to find some margin, You really will. And you're going to start to see that number grow, grow, grow. And you just think, if we put that much towards the truck, this is where... And you start to actually see it happening. But you got to see those hard numbers first and foremost. So go back a few months and average out some of these categories. I think that's really going to help you see somewhat of a goal to shoot for.

I think as you get good at this, and it's going to take you a little bit to get good at it, you're going to put $3,000 a month on the truck, and the truck is going to be paid off in about 10 months. That's what I think. Okay? Here's your rules. You and your husband, sit down, turn the television off, put the kids to bed, get the Every Dollar app up on the screen, and start telling June what to do. You guys get to choose together what it's going to do. You lay it all down and then you stick to the plan that you laid out. The first month, you're not going to be very good at this. The reason you called us is you suck at this and you're learning. Okay. The second month, you're going to be a little bit better. The third month, you're going to feel like a budget pro. It's going to take three months before it all clicks. Okay. Give yourself a little grace. It's tense to sit and talk to your spouse about this when you never have. Expect some tension in the area. Give yourself a breathe, breathe, okay?

Smile, tell a joke. And so begin to lay it out. And every dollar has an assignment before the month begins, and it's not going to be perfect the first month, and we're going to do it together, and we're going to have a contract between the two of us that we're not going to violate this plan that we have both agreed to without coming back and changing it together. You might have to change it a time or two.

Yeah, you probably will change it throughout the month. So give yourself that leeway. But you guys agree on to say, wow, this was more. You have to agree on it.

You can't just come in and go, Honey, I changed it today. No, that doesn't work that way. We're going to do it together. It's very, very important. When you do that, you're going to feel the stress and the anxiety in the relationship leave the air as well as this sense of out of control and chaos. It's amazing how powerful this one simple tool is. This is the Ramsey Show. Our scripture of the day, Romans 12:2, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Andy Warhol says, They always say time changes things, but actually, you have to change them yourself. Kelsey is in Indianapolis. Hi, Kelsey. Welcome to the Ramsey Hi, Dave.

Thank you so much for taking my call. I appreciate it.

Sure. What's up in your world?

I'm going to a divorce right now. In the past year, since August, I started my first full-time job, saving up for me and my little girl. I have currently saved, since August, a little over 15,000 in cash. Good for you. I have no debt, no credit cards. It's funny, this old man said to do baby steps, and guess what?

He was right.

I don't have any legal obligations or anything as well when it comes to divorce. My question is, with the cash that I have set, it's currently in a share certificate which will mature in September. When it matures, it'll be around $20,000, if not a little more. My question is, I know you prefer people to save up for 20% on a home mortgage, but as of right now where I stand legally, it was no two years of W2, I'm not able to find a cosigner on an apartment or qualified by myself for an apartment. I'm currently living with my family. It's not the best emotional and verbal situation. I've been here during the three years of this legal separation and divorce. My question is, is it okay if I put 10 or 15% down, which would be the 20K, and get a home and have a payment that's roughly 1,200 a month?

Kelsey, if you can't qualify for an apartment, you can't qualify for a home. So your logic is broken. But to answer your question, if you have an emergency fund of 3-6 months of expenses plus a down payment of 5%, 10%, sure. Go ahead and buy in that case, okay? That's all fine. And yes, you do need to get out of there. But there are plenty of places in Indianapolis that will rent to a person who has $20,000 in the bank that does not have two years of W-2s. Lots of them. You've been told a lie by someone because we regularly survey the apartment community. George Campbell did one not long ago for his podcast where he called around to different apartments in different cities and said, I have a zero credit score. I'm brand new out of college. I don't have a job track record, but I have a job. I can prove the job to you. Will you rent to me? And they said, Sure. Some of them required a little larger deposit, but every one of them, except one, said no FICO score is fine and not two years of W2s. All of that is the...

So someone's been telling you this and it's not true.

Okay. I've put in three applications for apartments and been denied every time, saying that I need a cosigner and I need it to either- What happens to, Kelsey, so what we have found, though, is sometimes you have to call and actually ask for or a management position, someone that has a bandwidth to be able to or have decision-making rights that the person in the front office who may just be going through the applications doesn't have.

We have found that, that you have to find this.

You don't just fill out applications blindly. Go in and sit down and talk to them and say, Here's the situation. I went through a divorce. I've been working. I'll show you the W-2 for what I'm doing. I'll show you proof of job. Here's my certificate. I've got $15,000 in the bank, and they'll rent to They'll rent to you. But if you just turn in applications, they'll just turn them down because they don't even look at them.

But if you're in a position to buy a home and you do have that down payment, and that payment is no more than 25% of your take home pay, you have your emergency fund, and you have all of that set up, at that point, I would go ahead and buy. We always say to- I'm not sure you do, though, because I don't think $20,000 is an emergency fund plus a down payment.

Do you, Kelsey?

No, it's not. I do have three or six months expenses saved outside of the 20 grand.

Oh, you do? Okay, then $20,000 is fine. Yeah, it's just a point brand. What are you making? How much are you making? It's not 20%. How much are you making?

Monthly with the child support and my own together, it's a little over $3,200 a month.

Okay, all right. I would buy. Now, here's the thing. We tell you never take out more than a 15-year mortgage. We tell you never do it where the payment is more than a fourth of your take home pay. We do say those things, but we do not We say the third one is 20% down. We say 20% down is best because you avoid PMI. But a first-time home buyer or someone in your a situation where you're trying to reenter the housing market for the first time or reenter it as if it's the first time, very few of those people put down 20%.

Okay, so I'm okay. I'm not going to get spanking by Papa Dave.

I just told you. You could do it. That's funny. Okay. That's funny.

Kelsey, that's exciting It's exciting, though. I mean, seriously, this feels like another great step in the right direction for you, too.

But don't do it based on there's no apartments in Indianapolis that are rent to you because that part's not true. That part's not true. Because literally, You think an apartment won't rent to you, but you can get a mortgage? I mean, come on, that doesn't even make sense. So sit down with Churchill Mortgage, and they'll help guide you through the process. We've been endorsing them for, gosh, almost 30 years now, and they'll help you figure out what you can afford and start to lay out. Then you may decide to save a little bit more and go get you an apartment and get out of this toxic family situation. But I think you do need to get out of that. You've gotten far enough the other side of the divorce to recognize there's other things that are toxic that are bringing you harm, and you need to separate yourself from that, or at least get some distance from it anyway. I think you do need to make that move. Mikaela is with us in Minneapolis. Hi, Mikaela. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hello.

Hi, what's up?

Essentially, I'm calling because I just graduated, and my husband and I just have decided to sit down. We've had conversations about our finances in the past, but really just taking it seriously, and there's quite a bit of debt. How much? We're not really sure where to start. A little over 686,000.

On what? Mortage. How much is this What's his mortgage?

$350,000.

You have $300,000 in non-mortgage debt?

I have my doctorate. And what? So my student loans were about chiropractic.

Are you working now or you just graduated? Not.

I just graduated about a month ago, and I'm currently not working. We have a toddler, and we're about to have our second baby, so I'm staying for a little bit for that reason.

Oh, man, girl.

You signed up for $200,000 to be a chiropractor?

Wow. Yeah. What does your husband make? It varies. His income is based on his sales.

What's he make?

I don't really know, yearly. We roughly estimate about 6,000 a month, but it totally varies. Some months it's as high as 10,000 a month.

It'd probably make an 80 or 90,000. Okay. Honey, you're going to have to get to work. You've painted yourself in a corner. You don't have a lot of choices. I mean, you have a baby, I understand, and you should do that, but you're about to be a chiropractor because you spent 200K, and you got to pay 200K by being a chiropractor. You made that decision. You can't unring this bell. You're about to be a chiropractor, and you're probably going to start at 50,000 to 70,000 a year. If you work your butt off, maybe you can get it up to 110. Between the two of you, then you're going to have to get an attack mode and get after these debts. Yeah. Wow. Let's do this. Let me help you. You got a baby on the way, and it's a scary time, and this is an overwhelming amount of money. You may not be able to keep this house, and you may not be able to keep the cars you bought, too. You guys have made a It's a real royal mess, and there's going to be some pain involved before you turn this around. Probably some chiropractic metaphors in this.

But hang on. We'll have Kelly Who's in there? Kelly's in there. Pick up and get you... I'm just flabbergasted. Get you Financial Peace University and help you two get started, and we'll try to help you with this. You call us back if you need help as you go. That puts us hour of the Ramsey show in the book, so we'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus. Hey, folks. Dave Ramsey here. You know, budgeting doesn't have to be boring. You just need a budgeting app that's made with you in mind, and that's EveryDollar. The EveryDollar app has helped millions of people work the baby steps and take the stress out of planning and managing their money. Start budgeting with EveryDollar for free right now. Just go to ramseysolutions. Com/everydollar and download the app today. That's ramseysolutions. Com/everydollar.