Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships is free. And some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. The phone number is 888-25-5225 thanks for hanging out with us, America. Number one best selling author, Ramsey personality and YouTube extraordinaire star George Camel would be my co host today as we take your questions about your life and your money. Triple 8825-5225 Lisa's in Colorado Springs to start this hour. Hi, Lisa. How are you?

I'm good. How are you doing?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Good. I am in a marriage. I'm a year in, and it was a high risk marriage where we're not doing so swell right now. But I don't have. About a year and a half ago is when I first started investing in my 401k. Through my work, I have about only 10,000 saved up. I'm concerned, being 45 years old, that I guess I don't know where to go from here on, how to make sure that I am going to be okay come that age, that I am ready to retire. But I know I have a long haul ahead of me. But my husband is not super interested in a 401k. He only has about 20,000 in an older 401k. We don't have our finances combined currently right now, just due to, you know, it's been a very rough year. So we didn't combine right off the bat like we intended to, and I'm very hesitant.

Let's stop a second. Okay. So how y'all doing?

Sure we're not doing well.

Okay. Are you seeing someone to help you with this?

We are. We've been in counseling for pretty much the whole year.

What. What is a high risk marriage? I don't know what that is. I thought they all were. I'm at risk of dying at all times. I'm just saying.

No, we. We have. I have grown children. He has very young children, one with special needs with down syndrome. And so that going into it, you know, we were advised that, that, you know, the percentages of things not working out were already pretty high. Not in our favor.

Well, that's a way to put a blessing over a marriage. You guys, you guys meet with.

Is there, like, a marriage statistician that laid this out for you?

It was a premarital counselor.

Okay.

Well, I guess. I guess he or she was just trying to warn you that these are extra stressors that some people don't have to face. But I don't know if I'm gonna allow that to be a curse that's spoken over my life either.

Right. Right. In moving into the marriage, we thought, okay, you know, we know this is. This is what we have to work on, but.

Right. So what is the. What's the trajectory right now? Are we going to work through this? Are we going to make it? Or are you giving up hope?

Not giving up hope. I mean, we did file a couple months ago. We took it off the table. That's not what we want. It would be. My second divorce is third. So it's definitely not something that we are, you know, taking lightly. And we want to try everything before, you know, that's an option.

So your question is whether to combine your stuff now in the middle of this storm, right? No, I would not. Yeah, no, I wouldn't. That adds one more stressor.

Okay.

Okay. But as a. As a rule of, and I said in the middle of the storm, the other thing is you can't live sustainably in a storm forever. So the hurricane, the tornado, whatever metaphor we want to use on this is going to leave at some point, and it needs to leave at some point because you're going to drive yourself nuts. You don't want to live exactly like this for five years. Agreed.

Agreed.

Okay. So something's going to give. We either going to get better, we're going to get out. Okay, at some point, I'm not saying today, but as soon as we reach the point that we're getting better, then we need to say, all right, we're going to make the hard decision to go one more step, and that's combine everything. Because we don't see, the numbers tell us, the data tells us, we don't see people succeeding financially or relationally that keep all their stuff separate. It's just. It's just a roommate then. And you're not. You haven't, you haven't. You haven't promised that I'm never going anywhere. And so I don't really give a crap about your 401K or his, whether he's put money in 401K right now. What I care about is, can you guys get knitted together in this relationship? And if you can get knitted together, and now you are one and you start breathing in the same rhythm, and now we're starting to look distant into the future, and we can see us together in that future, then we combine the stuff because it'll help you on the financial front and on the relational front.

But right now it's just going to add stress because you've got all this suspicion and worry and I don't know if we're going to make it. And, you know, I would keep it separate, but I also keep it. If you want to keep it separate, it's fine. But also then keep it all on the table so everybody knows everything. You don't have any hidden accounts? He doesn't have any hidden accounts.

Yeah, and I believe he does. And that's part of the problem too, is not knowing what exactly he brings in. We have a super high mortgage. I mean, just, there's a lot of.

Things it doesn't absolve you of communicating about money. So I don't want you to conflate the two. You still have to talk about money openly. It sounds like that hasn't happened. He's still unwilling to do that. Is the nature of the issues largely financial or is that just a piece of it?

Oh, that's just a piece. Honesty, transparency and loyalty are our issue really at hand. But the finances, you know, he. I don't want to combine. He does. So that causes just another element to this is, hey, we're not acting as a married couple because you won't join finances with me. But I have quite a bit of hesitation to do that for different reasons. And, you know, so it just, it, it's just calm.

Oh, yeah, circus. Circle back with your. Next time the two of you are in front of your counselor together, circle back with that, because here's the deal. Honesty, transparency, loyalty are all essential to win in any relationship, certainly marriage relationship. And until you have that, you can't combine because you, your hope, your hope of making it forward is very low. Unless one of you just wants to assume doormat position, which is really toxic and unhealthy, codependent crap. Okay. But yeah, if you, if you're going to go forward, you need to get those things cleared up. And by the way, I'll just be the old guy that knows nothing about therapy except having been through it because Sharon tried to kill me. I mean, I tried. I mean, we almost. Yeah, it was bad and a long time ago, but, yeah, so. But honesty, transparency and loyalty have nothing to do with grown children or special needs children. Those don't cause honesty, transparency, communication and loyalty problems. They expose them like money. It doesn't cause those things, but it exposes the problems. And so, you know, the high risk marriage thing has to do with those things.

And if you don't get those solved, I'll give you a high probability of, you know, either going crazy or getting out. So, you know, that's where. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know what the timeframe is, but you don't need to go on odd infinite. I mean, for forever and ever with this. It's not. It's not a plan.

Constant counseling for years.

Yeah. Like five years later, we're still having this exact same narrative, this exact same routine. No, thank you. Life goes on. You move to the next thing. I don't want you to end your marriage. I want. I want it to work out. But I'm with you. You keep them separate until you have honesty, transparency, communication, loyalty, whatever. Those keywords where you drop that are pretty serious bomb words. So, yeah, you got to get that cleared up because that's part of what combining the stuff forces you to do, actually. But I wouldn't do it in this case until you get some new.

The foundation first.

This is Ramsay show. I've got some good news and some bad news. The good news is that people have started buying life insurance to protect their families at levels not seen since the 1980s. The bad news is many of them are still buying crappy cash value type plans. I don't care what you call them. Whole life, universal variable adjustable, flexible. They're nothing but a waste of your money. Don't be confused and let someone sell you a plan that sounds better than it really is. Look, term life is the only way to go. Rates are back to all time lows, and the process to apply is easier than ever. With many companies no longer requiring exams, you need to protect your family and use your money for much smarter things than investing in a ripoff cash value insurance policy. Go to zander.com or call 803 564282 and just compare pricing. You'll see why. These are the only plans I recommend. Take care of your family and do it in a smarter way. Welcome back to the Ramsey show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. We appreciate you joining us. George Camel, Ramsey personality, is my co host today.

Phil is with us in Detroit, Michigan. Hey, Phil. Welcome to the Ramsey show.

Thank you for having me, gentlemen.

Sure. What's up?

So I started a business about two years ago, and it's doing quite well. And I'm just trying to decide what I should do with the wealth that I'm amassing. Especially because I plan on living a fairly humble life over the next ten years and just kind of seeing what I can do with that.

Good for you. That sounds cool. So what kind of money are you.

Making this past year? The second year in business, I took home about $190,000. This year, I'm projected at doing about 250. But it's just kind of climbing more and more, so it very well could be higher than that.

Good for you. Well done, sir. And obviously the most money you ever made in your life, by far.

I started working four years ago. I graduated. I'm a physician.

Oh, good. Oh, yeah. You're rocking it. Well, good. Well, all those dreams are coming true on the financial side, anyway.

Yes, sir.

Very good. So what's your question?

So I'm trying to decide what I should do with the money that I kind of. I'm amassing and I'm kind of between. I already had my loans paid off, all of that. I'm trying to decide, and I see it in three categories. Paying off my home, that's not a forever home. Going into more into retirement, and then really, the biggest option that I'm trying to weigh out is buying a commercial building.

Mm hmm. Okay, well, all three are good things. The only question is the order, right?

Yes, sir.

And what would we do? We would follow the baby steps. Right.

Yeah.

So are you investing currently?

Yes, sir. I'm actually on a Roth Ira as much as possible, and all the money I'm amassing is going into, like, an individual brokerage account that I'm making about 10% on right now.

Okay. So let's say you're investing 15%. That's baby step four.

Are you doing anything other than just your roths?

I'm setting up a simple IRA through the business that I'll be matching out and maxing out as much as possible for the. For myself and my wife, who also is an employee of the business.

Okay, that's good. So we want to get you to 15% of your income going into retirement, not brokerage.

Okay.

Okay. That's step one. That's the first thing you do, because you said three things. Retirement. Pay off the condo and pay off the build and buy building. Right.

I don't even know if it's worth paying off the condo since it's not a forever home.

It doesn't matter, honey. There's not a forever home except heaven. You're going to move?

Yes, sir.

It's just when you move, they're going to give you a check.

Yeah.

So it doesn't matter. Yeah. So how big is the condo, and when are you going to sell it?

It's a little 1600 square foot. I have thrown around the idea of keeping it and just renting it out as a rental afterwards. But like I've heard many times in your show, that's not a truly passive income. So I don't even know if that's worth the headache of it.

Well, you told us your goal was to own commercial space, not to be a landlord, so I'd want you aiming at that goal. And if that means, you know, we're going to have a paid for condo and the rest of the money we're going to get in a commercial space. And when we can upgrade to a home, we do that.

What are you owing your condo?

About $160,000. I put a down payment starting last year.

Okay. Okay. You. First and foremost, you are an above average doctor. Most doctors suck at money. And you have, you have avoided docitis, which is graduating from school, buying a house you can't afford, and two bmws that you can't afford, while you have $280 million in student loan debt. That's a typical doctor. Okay.

Yes, sir.

They suck at money and they're like stereotypes. They're like athletes and artists. I mean, it's crazy. Now, some of them don't, but I'm just saying, that's the stereotype. And they don't even make the top five in the millionaire category, the people that become millionaires. So you're way above average because you're thinking about this. You're actually. You said, I'm going to live humbly. You're living in a tiny little condo. You're awesome. In order to achieve bigger goals, you're willing to put off more delay pleasure. Again, you delayed pleasure to get through med school to achieve a big goal. Way to go. Now you're talking about doing in the financial realm. You're way ahead. So let me just give you, like star, star, star, five stars across the board. You are killing it. I'm proud of you. Now, having said that, you asked the question. So we're going to teach you the fastest right way to build wealth that I used, George used, and that we've taught tens of millions of people to do. We use a thing called the baby steps. We want you to have an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses we want you to have.

Then we want you to be putting 15% of your income into retirement. If you're not going to stay in that condo longer than six months, let's just go ahead and get it on the market and talk about selling it and buying a house that we want. Then the next step is going to be pay off the house. If you are going to stay in the condo, let's just pay off the condo. Then and only then do we start saving up for longer, bigger investments. That's after baby step seven. Which baby step seven is. Everything's paid off 100% debt free. And you're putting money into retirement at the tune of at least 15% going in above that. Then go buy some commercial buildings for cash. They're awesome. I've got a bunch of them.

What's it going to cost?

I was looking at possibly around a million dollars. And I've. Yeah, for the commercial building.

Cool. Is that you can put your practice in it or you just want to buy.

Yes, sir. I would be moving my business into it to then, like, start a different business that I would be renting from. And then I would also have tenants.

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's not a bad plan at all. But it's not. It's not necessary for your practice to grow. It's just a nice benefit. I'm sitting in the building we own 100% of paid for. And our. And our operation runs from this campus. And, you know, it's. It's a large commercial building, obviously. And so the. That's what. That's after you get the condo paid off or wherever you're living paid off. And that's after you're 100% debt free. And that's after you have money going into retirement and have an emergency fund. That's when I do the commercial building.

So this could be years down the.

Line and not really. Cause he's making bank.

Once you start increasing this thing, you can put 200, 300 grand away each year. It becomes a.

You can start putting 15% away today into a different retirement. He's got the simples, he's got the Roths. You probably get it to 15% there today. And then you start. You go from 250 to 350 to 450. And you keep living in a 1600 square foot condo. You pay it off in, like, a year and a half, it's gone. And then you can start moving towards a commercial building, or you can move up in house, depending on which one your wife wants. I mean. I mean, depending on.

That was the honest answer.

Whoops. I just said that. That out loud. Happy wife, happy life.

Well, when you started, you know, Ramsay solutions, you weren't. You didn't just go buy a commercial property at the time?

No, I didn't buy anything for ten years.

So you're leasing, renting a space.

Exactly.

Until you could pay cash. Yeah, I think you bought that. You were. You bought the building that we were in at the time.

But we were there five years with a lease, with an option. Yeah, first. Yeah, but we weren't making the money he's making, either. I mean, I wasn't making that kind of money then, but eventually we were. But I'm saying that that's. That's when we bought that building, because we got to baby step seven, and we were stacking cash.

We moved at the speed of cash, which is still a shock to everyone that we even do that around here. And they're like, Dave's lying. I bet they like. No, I don't know how. You got to show them the financial records, Dave. They need proof.

Yeah. I mean, people are. Isn't it funny? So, here's the thing. Okay? This is, this. You'll love this one. Okay, so, we've got our very nice home, a wee bit expensive. And this. I'm gonna try to be nice.

You can tell you're trying to be kind.

This person told a friend of ours that it's impossible to own a home like that. That's paid for. And I'm like, why is it impossible? You just have. You either have the money or you don't. I mean, it's possible. You can say it's unlikely. You can say you don't think Ramsey makes that much, and he's lying. So he borrowed to buy that house. But here's the thing. In every state in the United States, if you get a mortgage, do you know what they do? They record it at the courthouse. It's public record. Do you not think some of these left wing rags that hate me would have already pulled up the public records and announced that Dave Ramsey's a complete fraud if I didn't have mortgages on everything? Because it would take about. I mean, anybody's ever done a title search, anybody in the real estate business, anyone who's ever bought a piece of real estate in America knows how to do it. I mean, you walk into the thing and go, hey, pull up and see if Dave Ramsey or any of these entities that I know that he has got a part of has any mortgages listed.

It takes about, I don't know, with a computer, 45 or 50 seconds.

So, out of all the lies, that feels like a pretty stupid.

That's just the dumb one. I mean, I get the guy over at the mall that sells timeshares and says, oh, Ramsey buys a timeshare from us ever so often over here. He's a liar.

My favorite one is because you can't prove that one. Someone said you financed like a washer dryer because there was another guy named David Ramsey.

I got an extended warranty. That was the lie. It's just hilarious. These people just. But, yeah, but, yeah, no, we don't. We don't have any mortgages.

What a fun life you get to lead.

I know, but it's. It's. It's just. It's. I'm always amazed how dumb people are, you know, that you would say something like that because you can. All you gotta do is go down to the stupid courthouse and this left wing rag we have in Nashville used to be a newspaper. Now it's a little pamphlet called the Tennesseean. It would have already run a negative story about me. It's run negative stories about everything else.

Ain't got that kind of dirt, you.

Know, that would be big dirt on Dave Ramsey. I mean, he has mortgages. That'd be pretty much the end of my career. This is the Ramsey show.

This show is sponsored by Better help. Hey, it's Deloney, and. You gotta be kidding me. 2024 is flying by. So let me ask you, what's something you're proud of so far this year, and what's something you wish you could just stop and collaborate and listen and change direction on? It's important to take a moment to celebrate your wins, and it's also important to make adjustments and make changes when necessary. Therapy can help you take stock of your progress and set achievable goals for the next six months, nine months and beyond. Therapy is a safe, effective place to learn how to say hard things out loud and to make realistic plans for moving into an unknown future. Personally, I've been blessed to have a great therapist, and you can be blessed with a great therapist, too. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give betterhelp a try. It's entirely online, it's convenient, it's flexible, and it's suited to fit your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra money. Take a moment and be intentional for the rest of 2024 with Betterhelp, visit betterhelp.com Deloney today to get 10% off your first month.

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George Campbell, Ramsey personality, is my co host. Open phones at 888-825-5225 David is in Kansas City. Hi, David. Welcome to the Ramsey show.

Hello.

Hi. What's up?

Well, I am a divorced man. I'm 69. I have a relationship with a widow who's 68. She's in another state. We're talking, and we like to get together, but I'm trying to be a righteous, godly man. I don't want to just live together. I want to get married. But if I get married to her, then she will lose her pension from her deceased husband, which is quite substantial. So what I was thinking is just having a church wedding, doing everything the same, except not filing for a state license. So I just wanted your thoughts on that.

What is the nature of the pension? I'm confused why she loses it if she remarries. That sounds more like alimony than a pension.

No, no, it's. Her husband was a police officer for the state of New Jersey, which they have very, very generous pensions. And so it's between three and $4,000 a month. And she would lose that if she remarries. And what most people do in these situations is they just live together. They don't even think about it. But I can't do that. It's a deal breaker for me. I would want to have some kind of ceremonies. I'm trying to be a righteous man, trying to do the right thing, but it's. And this woman has been through a lot. She's lost her mother, her sister, and her husband within the span of three years. And she's been insecure most of her life, and she's finally has financial security. And so for me to come and say, hey, well, you know, we're gonna get married.

What is your net worth?

I'm a chiropractor, so I make about 90,000 a year. But I get some Social Security, too. My net worth is not much. 20, 20,000. Right now. I don't have anything saved. I lost everything a couple years ago. Through divorce? Yep.

And how long have you been seeing this?

We've been talking for several months.

Mm hmm. Okay.

Have you met her?

Oh, yeah.

Okay. Yeah, that's why you started talking. I didn't know if you're talking on.

The phone or, like, long distance.

No, I saw her. I saw her last year. I saw her. We met and we talked, and she's an old years ago, was a girlfriend in high school, so I know her from back then. I know all about her from back then.

Okay. All right. Well, it's a difficult one. I'm not going to argue with you there. I'm with you, though. There's no question. I'm not living with someone I'm not married to. I can't do that as a person, person of faith. Okay. As a Christian. My book tells. My book tells me not to do that I don't do with the things the book tells me not to do because they don't prosper me and they're not good for the people in my life and people around me and so forth. So I just try to, even though it doesn't make sense sometimes, I just do what the book says, and so I'm not doing that. It's not. I'm not like a pharisee. It just is. It just worked good for me, you know? So I'm a follower.

There's a lot of people that do do that. They just live together.

I know they do. And they say it seems like it's okay, but. But you and I know that there's other issues. So. So then the only question, if you go to the church wedding and you don't file with the state, is just, it's not a. No longer a theological or doctrinal or religious question. It. You've solved that. The only question on the table is you are intentionally lying. It's an integrity issue just to keep this in place. And that. That's a, that's also potential deal breaker. I've got to work through that in my head. If I'm in your shoes. I'm not saying you're doing that, but, you know, this is basically a maneuver to manipulate and not tell these people you're married and you are married. And so that's deception. You know, there's not any question about that, and there's good reasons for it here.

But it is back to who instituted marriage. Was marriage instituted by the government or was it instituted?

No, it doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't. You and I know when you go get married, you're married, okay? And you know that the state of New Jersey did not want this pension going to her when she remarried. And you're not telling them is what you're doing. And so, you know that. That I've just got to work through that. I'm not accusing you of something bad here, but. But I can't get. I'm 63, so you and I could be in the same boat someday. I'm not, but I'm not today, but I'm trying to relate and think through.

Well, I'm not trying to game, you know, the other.

The other thing is, I would investigate if there are any things that you can file with the pension board for, uh, individual exceptions like the. The particular nature.

I did hire an attorney. Yeah, I. An attorney. I looked into it and they said there's nothing much you can do. And it's just kind of crazy to me because the state is actually promoting, you know, fornication lifestyle. That's okay. It's okay.

Well, they do, they do with a lot of things. I mean, they do with a lot of things with it. They do with the tax code. They do with a lot of other things. So that's not, that's not new. That doesn't change your stance or my stance. We have to do our thing regardless, regardless of what the stupid state does. There's a lot of things that are legal that aren't right, so.

Well, that's what I'm saying. If I'm doing this right in my eyes before on behalf of ceremony, then.

I mean, I'm just talking it through with you. You're more than welcome to do whatever you want to do. I'm not saying you're a bad guy. I'm just talking it through with you. If I'm in your shoes, I've got to work through the fact that I am intentionally deceiving the state. And is that okay? And I'll give you a parallel example in my life, is that I hate so much so that just talking about it right now, my heart rate is changing. I hate the federal income tax. It is absolutely immoral, out of control, pitiful the money that I send to the federal government makes me want to throw up every time I think about it. I hate it. It's pitiful how bad they run this country. And I keep, and they keep milking me even more. Taking my money at the point of a gun. I hate it. But you know what? I pay 100% to the penny that I owe. I take every legal regulation and loophole they allow me to take. And I'm a student of it. And I hire people with expensive checks that are students of it so that I can give them as little as possible with a hundred percent of integrity.

But I hate it. Did I mention that I hate it? Did I bring that up? And so, you know, but it's not about them. It's about me. Am I doing the right thing? So if I'm in your shoes, I've got to get, I'm not going to accept your lawyer's answer. I'm going to get with this. Get with these people. I'm going to talk to the governor. Crap. Call the governor. Talk to him. I mean, talk to the, whoever runs the police commission in the state of New Jersey and say, look, this guy died on the job, and you're denying his widow the right to move forward with her life with this. It's ridiculous. You're asking her to shack up at 69 years old like she's some kind of 19 year old that can't keep their pants on. This is ridiculous. And you guys needed. You need to give us an exception on this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna bust them if I'm you. And I understand why they do it, by the way, but to keep somebody from, keep the widows from being a target later with them, with the juicy pension. But I'm not saying he's targeting her.

If they get married, you know, he's. He makes $90,000. That would effectively replace her income as long as they're married. But it still puts her at a precarious situation.

I. She. She's not going to do that. She's just. She's been through hell and she's. This money means a lot to her.

Yeah.

And so I understand the predicament, and I'm not unsympathetic to it, but you asked. And so I've got to tell you, the way we answer questions on the show is, what do we do if we woke up in your shoes? Right? I mean, put your shoes on, walk in. I hope I'm not ever in those shoes. Those are difficult shoes. But the first thing I got to solve for the doctrinal part, the faith issue, you've solved for that one? That one's done.

And then I'll fight the bureaucracy after that.

Yeah. That's like a couple of kids getting married in their twenties or something, and they want to have a big, fabulous wedding, but they want to go ahead and get married. They want to go and live together now. So they get, they go to the church and they get married, and then six or eight months later, they have a wedding for all their friends, and that's okay. Cause they're married. That's, that's, you know, financially, legally, spiritually, all in line. You know, that it's in that kind of same bucket for me as far as that goes. But I don't care if you register with a state, but I do care about deception in my life. I don't want to be the guy that's doing that. This is the Ramsey show. You know, it doesn't take a degree in statistics to realize this one stinks. 93% of undergraduate private student loans are co signed. So when you're delinquent and drowning mom or papa or Uncle Joe is stuck in that financial stress along with you. But there is a way out why refi why Refi offers a custom refinancing option with a fixed rate loan based on your ability to pay and the average interest rate.

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No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but it yields a harvest of righteousness. That's a Bible verse. The way we say it around here is if you live like no one else, later you can live and give like no one else. You're going to pay a price to win, or you're going to pay a price by living in mediocre. You're either going to go through some crap and deny yourself some things in order to get to where you want to go, or you're just going to live in mediocrity. There is a price to be paid either way, a life of mediocrity or the life of a champion. Because you paid a price to win the game. You did the workouts, you did the runs, you did the film study, and then you go win the game. And so the way we say that is live like no one else, pay a price so that later you can live and give like no one else. Drive a car like no one else, all your friends making fun of you. And then when you buy a car that's worth more than they are, you can say, how do you like me now?

And then you drive. Whatever the flip you want to drive because you've got some money, because you didn't spend it all on a car when you was a broke person trying to look like you're not a broke person. Right?

Delayed gratification.

That's instant gratification. It's the hallmark of people who are emotionally mature, the ability to delay pleasure. In other words, you be a grown up. And I'm not talking about chronologically. You can be a grown up at eight years old if you know how to delay pleasure. That's a hallmark of emotional maturity. Most people don't have it. That's why you stand out like in a wonderful way when you have it, people that are, can delay pleasure. They, they can stay away from the donuts. I've been working on that one and it's hard for me. But I like donuts and I haven't had one in a while.

You look good.

Thank you. You do, too. Good.

Camera adds ten pounds, so don't go off of that.

So to vacations. But not this one. It was hiking the whole freaking time. But anyway, so, but all of that to say we live like no one else. So later you can live like no one else. So in 2020, we decided we were going to, in 2019, we launched this wonderful cruise that was going to happen in March of 2020 called the live like no one else cruise. And we're going to take folks that are on baby step four, meaning you're out of debt everything but the house and you have your emergency fund in place. You paid a price to win. If you're baby step four and beyond, you're investing, you're paying off your house and beyond, then you go on the live like no one else cruise. It's a, it's a mile marker. Right. And so we've got the Holland America, one of their top ships, fabulous ship. We've got some of the top people from Nashville like Stephen Curtis Chapman, multiple Grammy winners, 67 dove awards is going to be with us. One of our good friends. We've got other comedians and things with us that are, it's going to be a blast.

All the Ramsey personalities. And we're going to do events, Ramsey events on the ship all week long. And we're going to be with you, all of us, including me, including Sharon, all seven days. And it is a fabulous hot, this is not the Walmart on the seas cruise. This is the nice cruise. Okay. I don't, I don't go on those boats. All right. This is the nice one. I want, I'm not, I don't want to do it if we're going to go, if we're going to go half butt. Right. So if you're going to live like no one else, you need to live like no one else. So if you're baby step four and beyond, we're doing the cruise again because obviously we didn't get to do it during the Fauci pandemic. So now we've got to go. And, you know, we had to start everything over. So we launched the thing for sale. We're going in March of 2025 and it's going to be a celebration of you because you've lived like no one else. So that's where you are. If you're baby step four, you're doing that. I live like no one else cruise it is.

At this point, it's 72% sold out. There are, like three suites left and some really nice rooms left. And so because there's not any dumpy rooms on this particular ship, it's, it's almost brand new. It's a fabulous, fabulous ship. So Holland America's top, top flight. So anyway, this is going to be a blast. March 22 through 29th, 2025.

The pit stops are amazing too.

Oh, yeah.

Caico, St. Thomas, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas. Yeah, we're gonna have fun, fun time just with those excursions there. Maybe we'll go snorkeling with Dave. Is that an option? Is that an upgrade package?

Yeah. Swimming with Shamu. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, but yeah, the, that's it. Not have that one on there that I know of. But anyway, hey, we're gonna be hanging out with y'all all week. It's gonna be fun. You'll get bored with it.

But what's cool is that right now, if you, if you book it, there's a deposit. So $600 locks in your room, and then you pay the rest as we get closer to the cruise. So, you know, if that's something you want, you know, like, why haven't budgeted for this? Well, if you're in, babysit four and beyond and you've got the wiggle room, put the deposit down and then join us.

Yeah, yeah, you got time to do it and you better. Well, you got not got much time because it's selling out really, really fast.

We're on pace to sell out by the time the summer's over.

Yeah. Oh, well, or sooner. Yeah, I talked to him this morning. I think probably. What is this, June? We need to be done in June. Probably. But anyway, yeah, so if you guys want to come, we would love to have you the live like no one else cruise. Be sure and check it out. Karen is in Irvine, California. Hi, Karen. Welcome to Ramsay show.

Hi, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Okay, well, thank you. I saw you at my church probably twelve years ago, and you really left an impression on me, so thank you.

Well, thank you for that. Are you at Mariners?

How did you know?

Well, you're in Irvine, so, I mean, I've spoken there like, three times.

No stranger over there.

Yeah, yeah, it's a great church. We love the place. Okay, I'm sorry. Anyway, how can I help?

Well, I just went through a really hellacious divorce. After five years, it finally settled out and kind of all the chips are falling. And even though I got what most people will call a decent settlement because the cost of living is so ridiculous here, I couldn't afford to buy anything. So I am renting a small house, a fraction of what I used to live in, a fraction of the size. But I am paying just through the nose, and I'm paying actually more than I make.

How is that possible?

Rent.

Are you going into debt every month?

No, she got.

No, I'm not right now.

So you're able to float it right now, but it's unsustainable.

Well, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I can. So, I mean, I can tell you kind of what I have in the bank and what I have coming in.

What did you get out of the divorce? How much have you got?

Okay, so we sold a house. So I. In a bank, in a high yield savings account. Right now I have about 1.3 million from that house that is just sitting there. And I'm just trying to figure out what to do with it. But I figure, okay, we'll put that. Put that away in the corner. Really don't want to touch it. And I'm getting some alimony, spousal support, but it's only for six months, and that's $15,000 a month, and it will drop drastically. I mean, I could end up with that, getting nothing. And then for my personal income, I started working after being a stay at home mom for 20 years. And I only bring home about. A little over about 5600 a month after tax.

And what's your rent?

I paid off my car. I paid off all my credit card debt from the divorce. So, you know, I'm not. I don't have a lot of debt, but I'm just trying to be smart. And it just feels like, you know, in this area, it's an uphill battle. I'm a single mom. I'm still raising kids, so I feel like I can't really move out of this area.

How many kids have you got?

I have three, so I have two still living with me. One's 17 and one is 14.

Okay.

And I'm full time mom. No shared custody or anything like that.

Right. So there's no child support?

There is child support, but it may not last. Kind of dealing with an addict, and he just doesn't have a way to pay me.

Okay, but he's paying you 15,000 a month right now?

Yes. So that is coming out of the proceeds that he got out of the house. And then, yeah, that'll be reassessed in November.

Gotcha. So you have a 17 year old and a, what?

14 year old.

Okay. I'm sorry. You've been through hell, girl. That's heartbreaking.

Yeah, it's not a good situation.

Here's the thing, okay? You're very wise in that. Even in all of your pain, you're starting to see that this math doesn't add up, right? Okay. How much is your rent again?

$8,000 a month. And, no, I am not living high on the hog. I am living very basic.

Yeah, but you're in Irvine, and you're in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world.

And so, yeah, it almost feels indigo.

Here's the thing. I'm sorry that your husband was an addict, and I'm sorry he left his children, but they can't live in Irvine anymore. You don't have. You don't have the money. And so as heartbreaking as it is, the best thing you can do for them is to create a stable environment. And, you know, you're not in one. And so if 8000 is the cheapest you can find there, you got to go somewhere else, kiddo. I'm sorry. This is the Ramsay show live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Thank you for joining us, America. George Campbell, Ramsey personality number one self, number one best selling author, and of course, course, big YouTube star and co host of the YouTube show on Ramsey Networks. It's a big show, blowing up the smart money happy hour show that he and Rachel Cruz do together. He's my co host today, and he knows some stuff about this stuff. So open phones at triple 8825-5225 Grace is with us in Philadelphia. Hi, Grace. How are you?

I'm good.

Hi, Dave.

Hi, George.

Hey, what's up?

I appreciate you taking your time. I know you and your team talk a lot about the trends in the real estate market, and I had. My question is, when do you think the obnoxious overbidding on houses will stop?

Wow.

Is that happening in your area in Philly right now?

I mean, I believe so, but, yeah, I could tell you personal experiences, but I just feel that I personally put in offers, and, I mean, I'm just getting beat 50,000 more than asking price.

Well, the simplified answer is that that is caused by more buyers than there is inventory anytime. Basic economics, supply demand curve. Says that anytime there are a large number of people chasing a few goods, it drives the price up. Scarcity drives the price up. The opposite of that would be if there was more houses on the market than there were buyers, then that would be called a buyer's market. This is a seller's market. A buyer's market means that the sellers feel just blessed to have anyone look at their poor little house because nobody's out looking at houses and because there's hardly any buyers. In other words, there's ten buyers for 100 houses. Right now. There's 100 buyers for ten houses. You see the difference? And that's a simplified answer, and that's being caused by several things. But one of the things that's driven it of late in the last five years, as much as anything, is all of the migration that has happened of people changing states because of taxation and archaic crazy laws having to do with the Fauci pandemic and all kinds of stuff. People just left California, they left New York, and they're in Tennessee, they're in Georgia, they're in Florida, and they're in Texas.

And the numbers are there to support that. That's not a political statement, it's just a huge change in population shift. And so that's created in those states in particular, a shortage. Now, you're not in one of those states, but just to say that's exasperated in those states, then the other thing that's exasperated is if the economy, if builders of single family homes do not believe in the economy, then they don't build houses because they're afraid they can't sell them. And that's happened hardcore in the last 18 to 24 months because the real estate market slowed down. And so builders, the number of new housing starts is way off. And we were already had an inventory shortage. And so now with not. With not as much new housing coming online as it needs to, now we've got even more of an inventory shortage. And that's what's driving this, is you've got 100 buyers or whatever the number is on ten houses. That's not an exact number, but there's this tremendous oversupply of buyers, and so they're doing stupid stuff like bidding $50,000 over what the appraisal is, which then ends up ultimately changing the appraisal because people do it enough, it becomes a new market value.

Yeah, that was a follow up question too. Exactly. I mean, how are these houses, townhomes gang appraise to this value? That, or just it's kind of I don't want to meet up. But how are the, how is it equaling the over bidding? How are these praisers saying, you're right, it is over 50%?

Well, if you have ten houses in a row on the market and six of them sell with overbids, you now have a new market value. It's the overbid value because market value, the definition of it in appraisal class, is what a willing buyer gives a willing seller where no duress is involved. Now, we could argue that this is a duress market, but in other words, neither one of them are being cheated and neither one of them have a gun to their head. And so that buyers willing to pay that seller that knowing it, and if they do that enough times on that block, voila, you have a new market value, and it's the overbid price. It's not the, it's not the original value. And so again, the shortage of housing versus the number of buyers is driving it up. And so we've got some markets like yours. I didn't, I was not aware Philadelphia was that hot. But we've got some markets like yours where you put a house on the market and you're getting multiple bids over the weekend, even with interest rates almost double what they were two years ago.

Yeah, and that's another piece of this, Grace, is that there's some golden handcuffs out there because people either refinance or bought at crazy low rates, and now they're unwilling, willing to sell that home because they don't want to take on a new mortgage that has double the interest rate, which means there's lower inventory. So I don't see this thing shifting drastically in the next, you know, a year. I think when you're ready to buy, you got to buy. And if it means you had to get a competitive bid in with a good real estate pro, then that's what you had to do to get that home. There's not going to be deals out there where you're, you know, doing 20,000 under asking price.

Not the time to look for a bargain in real estate business, that's for sure.

No, not at all.

I mean, I'm a bargain buyer. I don't buy except in bargains. And they've bought a lot lately, and I haven't bought anything in a while. I mean, it's. And I'd kind of like to. I got some cash I'm sitting on, but I'm not, I'm not going to pay. I don't pay retail. So it's just like a Ramsey rule.

So what's your price point, Grace?

Well, I mean, and I've been guilty where, I mean, I could kind of get to be competitive. I've gotten 20,000 over, but, I mean, I'm looking around at 300 to 320.

That range goes real fast.

That's the biggest shortage.

Yeah. I was talking to my real estate buddy yesterday, and he said homes under 500,000 in Nashville are going like that.

If I was a home builder in an average city in America right now, I would build all the $500,000 houses I could build. Because you could sell everything you built. There's just a true, because that's an entry level in some markets, it's a number two move up in other markets. And it just, you know, I would build. There's a tremendous inventory shortage. Now, I know this is going to.

Be behind the scenes, but do you think banks are going to, after, when the appraisal comes back and they're saying, okay, this, this townhome that was, I mean, for example, I had a 309 townhouse. I bid for 330, and it finally sold for 363. So do you think the banks are going to counter offer that thing? I don't think this is going to be appraised for that high.

Well, they're going to run an appraisal. And if there's no statistical evidence that that other townhouses are selling at the 369, then that deal is going to have a problem, because that bank has got a bunch of regulations on them. They cannot loan more than appraisal. That's what got us in the 2008 debacle. Them loading, loaning on bogus appraisals. And so the appraisal industry since 2008 has tightened way up on regulations. And the banks are tightened way up. The mortgage companies are tightened way up. So they, they don't have a lot of wiggle room. So if somebody made that offer, they have to disclose to the bank they're paying 369. But the, if the appraisal comes back at 320, the bank's going to lend on 320. They got to have the cash in their pocket for the difference.

Grace, you're going to have to compromise on some things, whether that's location, you know, the home type, how old it is, see past some things that you can renovate. But I don't want you sitting on the sidelines hoping for the market to shift drastically.

It's not gonna. Yeah. And I don't really disagree with your word obnoxious. I kind of think it's accurate, but it is based on supply and demand, and especially if you're trying to buy, it's just, it's distressing. It's harsh out there. Weird. This is the Ramsay show. There aren't many places you can save hundreds of dollars a month and still give you great service, especially with health insurance. That's why Health trust financial is the only health insurance company company Ramsey recommends. Health Trust Financial objectively compares the top health insurance providers to meet your needs and budget. And remember, the service is free and there's no commitment. Go to healthtrustfinancial.com. health trustfinancial.com. guys, if you like the show, we would appreciate some help. You can help us out. We would appreciate it. There's a couple things you can do. One is click the subscribe or the follow button on the podcast or the YouTube channel or whatever it is you're on. That helps a bunch because obviously it changes the numbers, then causes those platforms to feed our show to other people that didn't even know we existed. So thank you for doing that. You can also leave a nice five star review.

That always changes the algorithms and helps things, too. Thank you very much. We know a lot of you are doing that kind of thing. Also, some of the platforms have a share button. You can click it and share it with somebody and say, send it over and say, hey, watch this. Look at this. Think of this. Watch these guys. Or you could just click the thing out. Or if you're listening on talk radio, you can just say, hey, I listen to the station. It's got these people on it, and they're talking about life, and it's fun and I'm learning stuff and just share about the show. Tell people about the show. If you read a good book, you tell people. If you go to a good movie, you tell people. If you go to a bad movie, you tell people, stay away. Right? And so, hey, if you think we're a bad movie, then don't tell anybody. A bunch of you are telling people because our numbers are way up on all of these platforms. I mean, wow. Spotify. Thank you. Amazing, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Pretty cool. All right, open phones at triple 8825-5225 today's question comes from Sadie in New Hampshire.

She says, I'm being sued by someone who is seriously injured in a car accident. That was my fault. I know this process can take years, and my insurance company is handling the legal, but I have substantial assets, and I didn't have an umbrella policy. My home and my financial assets are at serious risk. I'm a 64 year old single woman with about a million dollars in retirement funds, 800,000 in non retirement investments, plus 230,000 in cash in the bank. I also own a home worth about 600,000 with about 425,000 in equity. I've spent my life building a business and financial security, and I'm debt free except for the household. But now I feel like everything is in jeopardy. I also still make a large salary from a business I own. At this point, what can I do to minimize my exposure and potential loss of wealth?

Well, it's anything you do. I'm not an attorney, and I'm certainly not an attorney in New Hampshire. I don't even know one law in New Hampshire except to follow the speed limit. But the, but in general, as a business person, I've learned the legal theory is this, that if you move assets after a lawsuit has been filed in order to avoid people getting those lawsuits, the judge can come back later and undo that move and still give it to them. So if you took, for instance, if you took something and moved it into an LLC or moved it into a trust or something in order to do risk management, it's too late. They can undo that in most states. Again, I'm not an expert on the law, but I think that's a pretty standard legal business law piece of knowledge. So I would hire your own attorney that really knows New Hampshire law and ask that question, you have enough assets, you need to spend $10,000 or $20,000 on your own attorney and say, okay, what can we do here? What is at risk? What is not at risk? What. Help me assess the potential on this thing.

And, you know, what is this injury? An injury of this type, do some research, normally have a payout of and that kind of thing. And so a 69 year old, 64 year old single lady does not, typically in most court cases, have all of her personal assets taken from her. That would be highly unusual. But it can be done. It can be done, and it depends, of course, on a lot of things. But how egregious was the, was your mistake in the, in the car accident? In other words, how careless were you or was this an accident or were you doing something over the top, you know, in the car, that kind of thing? Weird. I don't know. I have no idea. But I'm going to start assessing every one of those things. In most cases, the 1 million you have in retirement funds are, is not accessible to a lawsuit. Your 401 ks, they can't get them. Okay. And your roth iras, they can't get them in most cases, so. But the rest of stuff, which is several million dollars that you've laid out here is probably, you're probably right. It probably is exposed.

And I'm just going to start investigating what I can do to protect it, or at least maybe make it difficult, which gives you then the ability to try to negotiate and attempt to do that. And so. But, you know, you're not in a real strong position. So I'm going to analyze all of my options, and I think you need legal counsel because I'm not that and I'm not any good at it. But it's, George, it's the reason that I don't own anything anymore.

Nothing is in your name.

I don't own anything. My cars are in llcs. My, all of my properties are in different llcs. And once we get a certain amount of dollars in an LLC, we don't add any.

Make a new LLC.

Yeah.

Because you don't want too much of a target.

I don't own them and I don't, there's not a, Dave Ramsey doesn't know anything. I'm really pretty poor actually, personally. And so on a personal level, Sharon, the actual man, Sharon's fairly well off. Yeah. Hope Sharon doesn't have a car accident.

Well, this is a good reminder, honestly, for everyone listening out there. If your net worth hits half a million or more, it's time to get an umbrella policy.

That's good.

I was just looking at mine. I got a million dollar umbrella policy. Once I hit that level, that costs $300. Yeah, $300 a year. And that I got underinsured motorists on there, uninsured motorist on their protection as well, because that stuff can decimate you. And so you want to transfer that risk over to the insurance company.

Yeah. LLC. LLC. Splitting the stuff off, number one. Then number two, having the right amount of insurance, you know, just call somebody like zander insurance. It's an insurance broker. Let them shop around and get you a policy. In her case, a million would have been, would have gone a long way.

Yeah. And being underinsured on your auto insurance, if you've got a policy, it's 100, 300, 100 instead of, you know, 500, 200, 5500. You got to make sure you have enough coverage.

Yeah. The cheapest, the best insurance. There's not many things you can say that's a good buy. There's really two types of insurance that are really a good buy and that's long term disability insurance. When you're an employer buying it as a group for your team. I buy it for our team. But dirty little secret is it doesn't cost much. And the other piece of liability is liability insurance, like an umbrella policy and or upping the liability on your cars and on your home, and then adding to the top of it, an umbrella policy. I carry a $10 million umbrella and I think it's about 3500 a year.

About ten x something like million one.

It's roughly. It might be four grand.

And a great tool for everyone listening, watching out there. Go to ramsaysolutions.com checkup and we'll do the work for you and show you the areas you might be exposed or underinsured. I just helped a team member do this, Dave, and they saved $80 a month with better auto insurance coverage.

Yeah, go ahead.

Too much. You got to get rid of that company and go talk to our friends at, you know, Xander, the auto and Ramsey trust.

Well, go to the plC, the PNC, on the website for their elp. The endorse local providers for property and casualty. And they're all insurance brokers. They don't work for one company. They shop for you and get you the best top rated companies on homeowners and on. And you'll save money. Yeah, but you need to keep your liability high, especially when you start building your net worth. And then once you get to a half million, you're right, you need to pick up a million dollar umbrella. And then once you get to 4 million or 5 million, go ahead and pick up a 10 million. It's just. It's the best buy in the insurance world because of what she's facing. It's so sad. I know.

Well, you know, to minimize the potential loss of wealth, I hope your insurance company has a great lawyer that's going to fight.

Well, they got a lawyer that's equal to the amount they're exposed.

Yeah, well, this happened to me, Dave. This was over ten years ago now. I bumped into a lady.

Remember that?

She ended up suing me months later.

You had a car wreck right in front of the office.

It was so embarrassing.

The whole office. Watch, George.

All Ramsey's looking out the window, and I'm just out there, my little.

Great.

My little Chevy cobalt, and I'm just going, oh, my gosh, tearing up other.

People'S stuff with your little cobalt.

An ambulance, two police officers there could not have. It looked like a parade out there.

Well, I mean, you were just driving. You were just a wreck. The door.

And yet, guess what? A few months later, this lady, I get. I get served. She's suing for like, $385,000. And I'm broke, and I'm on my dad's insurance. So he was exposed to. They ended up getting 25,000 from my insurance company, which was my limit, and 25,000 from her insurance company. She sued her own insurance company, and she got 50 grand out of the deal, so. But I didn't pay a cent out of pocket.

Was she really hurt?

No.

No, she wasn't.

They said, we never seen as many medical boxes that she sent over. She's a little ambulance chaser.

Oh, really?

She had a lot of. Not her first rodeo, Dave. Let's say that.

Well, maybe she hit you, George.

That's what I was. I got a camera the next day. I was like, I'm gonna get a camera. Dash cam.

You got a. You got a little body cam. Because George's body's.

And I increased my insurance coverage the next day.

Wow.

Never again.

Yeah, but. So the next day is too late, by the way. That's the point of this whole email.

You don't get to go back in time.

This is the Ramsey show. George Campbell, Ramsey personality, is my co host. You're invited, by the way, to join us anytime you're in the Nashville area. We charge absolutely nothing to sit and watch us do this show. And it's worth every penny. So we want you to come out and the coffee is free, and it's good coffee. And the homemade cookies are free, and they're really good. Smells kind of like Mama's kitchen when you come into our building instead of corporate America, which is iron tent, by the way. They do a great job over in the Baker street cafe. A little nod to the opener on the show, by the way. But we've got a lobby here full of folks almost every day, Monday through Friday, one to four. We do the show central time, a little south of Nashville in a beautiful town called Franklin, Tennessee. And so come out and visit us anytime. We'd love to have you in that lobby. On the debt free stage is Anthony and Shawna. Hey, guys. How are you? Pretty good.

We're blessed, man.

Awesome. Awesome. Where do you guys live?

Tampa, Florida.

Oh, fun. Welcome to Nashville. And all the way to Nashville from Big Tampa to do a debt free scream. How much have you two paid off?

We've paid off $71,102.49.

Excellent. How long did that take?

Nine months.

Good for you. And your range of income during that.

Time was about 100,212, just in personal, not including the business.

Okay, well, I mean, do you make money in the business? Yeah. Okay. What kind of money do you make in the business?

We do about 350,000.

Wow. Very nice. Good for you guys. Well done. So you're killing it, you two. How old are you?

233.

Yeah.

What kind of debt was this? 71,000.

So we had taxes, which was $8,921.50, student loans, which were $28,008.36, and credit cards, which were $34,172.63.

Awesomeness. Very cool. So what happened nine months ago, or twelve months ago, they said, we got to change this. And then nine months later, boom, you're out of debt.

Well, we actually have a very interesting story. So when we first started dating, this was about March of 2020, we were sitting.

Oh, that's good timing.

Yeah, right? We were in his room because we were not living together yet, and he had these floating shelves, and he had your total money makeover book on the shelf. And we were just sitting there, just hanging out, and all of a sudden the book falls off the shelf. Like, true story. Out of nowhere. So we were like, of.

George pushed the book off the shelf.

Read this.

Well, we did. We read the entire book in one day.

I would. That would have freaked me out.

I would have made. Put that book away.

I would like a Ouija board.

It was. It was pretty crazy. So we read the entire book in one day. We cut up all of our credit cards. We got rid of his life insurance policy.

Wow.

A whole life insurance policy?

Yeah, the whole life. And. Yeah. And then we got to work paying off our credit card debt, not any of our other debt. And we were just living life. You know, we were making about ten to $12,000 a month. And, you know, things were going great, but we weren't really taking it very seriously because we didn't pay anything off after the credit card debt. And then about a year later, we decided we wanted to move from an apartment to a house, renting. And so then we got right back into a whole bunch of credit card debt. So we had to get furniture and washer and dryer and deposits and all that kind of stuff.

Credit cards again.

So we got a whole. We got into all that credit card debt again. And then we also got married and, you know, so got into debt for that. So, fast forward to November of 2022. And we were making about ten to $12,000 a month, and it was off of one client, and we didn't have second jobs. We only had the business. And then they just said this was, like, right before Thanksgiving. So they said, sorry, on December 1, you're out of here. We're not giving you any more money. So that in December, we actually had to use all of our wedding money to pay our bills. And then after that, we started having to put all of our bills on credit cards. So that's how we racked up even more credit card debt. And that was when things kind of snapped for us. We're like, this is never happening to us again. So we had nothing in place. We had nothing. So we were like, we need to change something. So that's when we started going really hard in the business, and we also both got second jobs. And here we are.

Did the book fall off the shelf again? But we definitely picked it up. Wait, I remember this.

Yeah.

Pay off debt. That's good. And then you guys just went for it. Cuz now you had the income to go, all right, we're no more fooling around.

Yep.

Now will you go back again?

No.

Yeah.

As soon as I knew that I was a problem with the money and I gave it up to her, we literally got out of debris. Like, as soon as I gave her all power of handling all finances. So that's. That's my biggest lessons. Let her run everything.

Ah, okay. All right. But you got to know what's going on, right? You know that we talk every month.

About all the bills.

Yeah, I look at it daily.

Yes. I can tell. You're the nerd down to the penny on the phone, and he's just hanging out, having a good time.

Yeah.

He's the free spirit.

Yeah.

You guys call it the every dollar budget. I call it the every penny budget. Wow. Because every single. I mean, we run payroll and. And we run, you know, $4,132.09. We run exactly down to the penny of what we need, and that's how we do it.

Wow.

Wow. Okay. Never gonna be there again. That's that never again moment that changes things.

That's right.

Yeah. And if you really won't go back in debt and you really will not ever live on one client again, then you'll have a great business, and you'll build wealth, and you'll be in great shape, and so. Yeah. You learned some harsh lessons there.

Yes.

So, way to go, y'all. I'm proud of you. How does it feel to be free?

Feels amazing.

Free. Absolutely.

We really. Our big goal is to buy a house. So, you know, we don't really feel like there yet, you know, so we're out of debt, but, you're making great money.

You ought to be able to stack the cash and be able to do that. Tampa is a great market to buy in.

Yeah, we're almost there.

Keep living like you're broke and, you know, a year or two, you'll have go, oh, my gosh, we have hundreds of thousands of dollars for this down payment.

Actually, he. For his, you know, his w two job that he got. He had actually gotten a raise about four months into him having the job, but we continued to live on the original amount, and everything from the raise just went towards it.

That's amazing.

That's a big deal. Yeah. Very good job, y'all. Well done. Well done. What do you tell people the secret to getting out of debt and staying out of debt is?

So I have two things. So the first thing is you have to want to get out of debt more than you want the thing, more than you want, the coffee, more than you want, the nails, the clothes, whatever. And then the second thing is, which this has helped us probably the most, was continue the credit card stacking amount even after you've paid off your credit cards. So by the time we got to the end of our credit cards, our stacking payment was $1,000 a month. So even when we moved into paying off my student loans, we kept that thousand.

You're talking about your debt snowball amount. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yes.

And then when we went into saving for emergency fund, we kept that thousand. And then, you know, now that we're saving up for the house, we kept that thousand. So we always bare minimum have a thousand going towards, you know, debt or savings.

Yeah.

So that's really, really been helpful.

Yeah. That's once you learn to not need it anymore because you're throwing it on that then just don't need it ever again, and it turns into serious money. Like someday when you don't have a house payment anymore and you take that amount and just that amount always, you always pay yourself a house payment that turns into a million dollars so fast, it's scary. Yeah, yeah. We did that on when we paid off our first house and it was like $2,500 a month or something back in those days. And I just set that up going into a mutual fund, and that turned into a million dollars so fast. I looked up and I was like.

Wow, savings rate is amazing.

Amazing. Yeah.

Yeah.

Pretty cool. Way to go, y'all. Very, very cool. Very proud of you. Thank you for coming up from Tampa, Florida, to do your debt free scream Anthony and Shawna. Tampa, Florida. 71,000 paid off in nine months. Making 100 all the way up to 350. Count it down. Let's hear a debt free scream.

Three, two, one.

We're debt free. Yeah.

We're also going to give them two every dollar premium subscriptions for a whole year that they can use and give away as they save up for this new house.

And they'll love it because they're already using every dollar.

Every penny.

Every penny instead of every dollar. There we go. Well, maybe we have a new sub subtitle. This is the Ramsey show.

Hey, guys.

Rachel Cruz here. You know, some people think budgeting means they can't have any fun with money. And I know this because that was me. But the truth is budgeting doesn't limit your freedom.

It actually gives you freedom. A budget is simply telling your money where to go.

And the best way to do this.

Is with everydollar, my favorite budgeting app.

It'll help you create a plan for your money that fits your lifestyle.

So whether it's a spontaneous date night.

Or an epic Disney cruise, budget for some fun. Download every dollar for free today. George Camel Ramsey Personality is my co host today. Thank you for joining us. So many years ago we started building a network of real estate agents across America that are high octane, high protein, that sell more houses than just about anybody in the area and that understand and run their whole thing the way Ramsey talks about. So that when you go to them to list your house or you go to them to buy a home, you're going to recognize the lingo that they use if you spend time on this show. So they're called Ramsey trusted because they do stuff the way we do, endorsed local providers for your real estate. And so if you're thinking about buying a house or selling a house, this is the best possible way to do it, especially when you've got a difficult market time as a seller, there's some unique challenges right now. You may be in a position, if you price it right, to be fielding multiple offers depending on the market. Other markets are stagnant sitting. And because people are frozen by these interest rates, other places were getting multiple bids.

It's a weird dynamic. And you can't just assume that anything you saw on the news or zillow is correct. As a matter of fact, you can pretty much assume both of those things are wrong. And so, you know, you need to get with a professional in your area that's got some experience and sells, doesn't sell three houses a year and got their license last week because they thought it'd be fun. That's just not what we do.

It's a side hustle, Dave.

I go to church with him. He's a nice man. Yeah, but he's dumber than a rock. He's just. It's a good thing he's in church. No, you don't need to. That does not need to be your real estate agent. No, absolutely not. You get somebody that sells a lot of houses, you know, 5300, 200. What are houses a year? These are people that real? Because if they're moving that kind of volume, they know what the flip they're doing. Okay, so these are Ramsey trusted. Check them out for free at ramsey solutions.com. agent if you're getting ready to list a house or look for a house. And by the way, it is a great time to do either. I love a market like this where things are weird. There's opportunity when things are weird. And so on both sides of this equation, you can make things happen. Janet's with us in Palm Springs, California. Hi, Janet. How are you?

Good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up? Sure.

Okay. So my question today revolves around transferring or rolling over a Roth into a traditional 401K within an employer. So, my husband's been with this company for over ten years, and they had previously not offered a Roth option, and they just announced that they would now have that option for them. So we're wondering if it would be best. I know that you do suggest having them the cash available to pay the taxes we would have to pay on it. But does it make sense to keep it within the company, or should he just roll it out of the company altogether and he still works there?

He still works there, yes. You can't. You can't move it out if you still work there.

Okay.

Okay. Now, he has two possible three options here. One is he can keep doing what he's doing, which I don't recommend. Number two, he could make all future contributions be Roth. And there's no taxes caused by that.

Yes, he plans to do that.

Okay. Or he could roll whatever his balance is with that company into a Roth 401K now that it's available, and that will activate taxes on that balance. How much is that current balance?

The current balance is like seven.

Close to.

Yes. In his traditional 401K with his employer.

Yeah. Do you have any money? Are you guys in debt? What's your situation?

No, we're actually in baby step three b. We found your FDU through our church over a year ago. So we're out of debt. We have paid off cars. We have our fully funded emergency fund and we just started saving for a house.

So you want to use $4,000 of your house money to make this 18 a Roth?

I'm sorry?

Do you want to use $4,000 of your house money to make this 18 into a roth?

No, we would save up for that.

You can't save up for it. When you roll it to a Roth. It's going to activate taxes of the following year.

Yes.

What Dave is saying, there's an opportunity cost. If you're trying to save for a house, it's going to delay that because now you need to take a portion of that money to pay the taxes.

Yes, correct.

So I wouldn't. I wouldn't fool with this. I would just make future contributions to the roth leave traditional.

I would just. Because it's only 18k, it's only four grand.

So it's 180k, you'd have a whole lot more taxes.

I rather pay it sooner than later, where it's larger amounts.

Yeah, I agree. I would move it just because it's small. But you need to understand that basically there's $4,000 in taxes that you're activating, and that's going to lower the amount you have for a down payment by four grand.

So figure out how much can hold you back from.

We have about 2000, 2500 extra a month that we've been throwing at debt and all that stuff. So that we'll just continue to roll into saving for this. So it take us about two months to save that $4,000.

Exactly. And you would have been putting that towards a down payment because you're in three b, and that's $4,000. It's not going to be available for a down payment now. That's what I was saying.

Yes.

So as long as you're willing to do that, I. And because it's such a small amount, I would. If it was double this, I probably wouldn't.

Okay.

But if, you know, it's just. It's the other thing I like about it, quite honestly, because I've got so I'm old and I got so many different accounts from different stages of my life now, this is very clean and it simplifies your future because now you're 100% roth everywhere. Right. And that's going to be very sweet later. Instead of this weird little 18,000 account from. That's now grown to 200 and it's been 25 years and you're like, oh, crap, I've got that thing laying over there now. So I like all of. I like the cleanliness of it.

Now, I'm curious, Dave, when it comes to employer match, that sits in the traditional side, so. At Ramsey.

Yeah.

Now, when I'm. When I retire one day, hopefully 40 years from now from Ramsey, I'll have a traditional side with a match in it.

That's true.

So you already kind of have, you know, you've got the different buckets there. If you have an employer match, it's likely going to that traditional.

Now, in your case, you won't because you could take that and roll it because you're a baby. Step seven millionaire.

So pay the taxes.

You can roll that once a year, the employer match into your. Into Roth, but they. But the employer cannot make the match in Roth, and so you got to pay the taxes on it when you roll it once a year. But in your case, because you're in.

Good financial position, that's generally the time to do it in her situation, because the. It was such a small amount in there.

Yeah.

It's not a deal breaker.

99% of the time, you folks call here and ask us if you're going to roll something to a Roth before everything's paid off, including your house. We're going to tell you no, you got priorities because you would put the money towards debt instead of toward taxes. That's what we would rather you do. But the only reason we're answering her differently, or I'm answering her differently. Arguing with George was the.

She was the exception.

Just a small account.

Very exception to the rule.

Wow. It doesn't happen very often around here.

It's something to celebrate.

Yeah.

I have no hobbies.

Malcolm is in Seattle. Hey, Malcolm. What's up?

Hi. How are you today?

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

I'm looking to ask you a question. Get a reality check from you. So I started a small business about 60 days ago, and it's been much more successful than we thought. This isn't my primary job, nor am I going to leave my primary job. We buy and sell paintball equipment, and we do quite well on it. But it's hard for us to get inventory because there's only a couple of events per year. So I was thinking of doing an equity deal with another person. He buys the inventory, I sell it. Basically, it's a way to fund the business without taking debt. But I don't know if I'm just being delusional. Is this another form of debt?

No, it's a partnership.

That's what I was thinking, but I just didn't want to be. It's easy to look at things.

Yeah. It's a partnership, and I think it's probably unhealthy.

Okay.

I think you're probably paying a pretty serious premium on your. Out of your profits in order to bring in a partner to do this. Okay. I would suggest that you just grow a little bit slower and grow with your own profits, and you'll make fewer mistakes, and you won't end up with somebody over to the side, pissed off at some point because something went sideways on you.

What's the inventory cost?

Um, it's tricky because every marker.

What are we talking about? 100 grand or ten grand?

Like $75,000.06 times.

Okay. Yeah. Six times a year?

Yes.

Okay. You need to. What I would do is do about an a 10th of that and roll it and just roll up a little each time. You don't have to be king of the mountain on day one, dude. You can be the little guy at the bottom of the mountain at the start. And just don't. Don't be on the COVID of Fast Company magazine. Be on the COVID of slow company magazine, and you'll survive. That's what I would do. It's what I did, by the way. That's how I grew this 300 million dollar company. This is the Ramsey show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. George Camel, Ramsey personality number one best selling author, breaking free from broke. He is my co host today. If you want to break free from broke, you're in the right place. He's here to help. The phone number is triple 8825-5225 Allison is in Little Rock. Hi, Allison. Welcome to the Ramsey show.

Hi, guys. Thank you so much for what you do, and thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

All right. Sorry. I'm a little nervous. I would really like to go on a beach vacation, and my husband says that we cannot afford it.

Okay.

Can you afford it?

Well, I think it's worth the expense.

That isn't the question. The question was, can you afford it?

Do you have the money in cash to pay for it?

We do.

Okay.

But we do also have debt.

Okay.

Then the question is, how do you define a ford? Okay, so you called folks. If he told you to call us, he set you up, by the way.

No.

Okay.

Sure.

Because we teach folks that when you know that until you're out of debt, and have an emergency fund in place, you really can't afford to do anything. That's our definition of afford. You can't afford to go out to eat. You can't afford to go on vacation. You can't afford to buy a couch. You can't afford to upgrade your car. You're in debt and you're broke. You can't afford it until you get those things cleaned up. And so for a short period of time, you sacrifice those things, these lifestyle decisions, which is all they are, in order to. In order to get out of debt, so that you can travel and do anything you want to do later. And you've got. And you can afford it because you got the money and you don't have debt. But let's say you owe. Do you have credit card debt, as an example?

No, it's cars and my husband's student loan.

Okay, so what do you owe on car number one?

My car. Oh, five.

You. You owe, what?

Oh, 5000 people.

You owe $5,000. Okay, and how much is the vacation we're discussing?

If only myself and my kids win, it would be about 500.

Mm hmm. And your household income is what?

85,000.

Okay. All right. And how long have you all been married?

We celebrated our fourth anniversary last month.

Okay, so you're, like, late twenties?

Yes.

Okay, cool. Good. All right, so the big thing that this all points out, Allison, is that you and he need to get on the same page about what your goals are and what price you're willing to pay to get to them. That's the thing that helps you get the proper and agreed upon, aligned definition about what afford is. Because really, what you're arguing about is not can you actually afford it. What you're arguing about is what afford it means what priorities are. What's the definition of afford? Because what he's saying is if you spend $500 on a vacation, that's $500 less we put on the car. So it's just like we borrowed $500 against our car for you to go on vacation. That's what he's saying.

Oh, that's a good point. Darn it.

I'm sorry, but that. That's. That's his definition. Because he's got a goal to never have any debt again. It sounds like. Like he's working our stuff, right?

I'd say I'm more of the Ramsey listener than he is.

Oh, so he's not okay. He's just a tight wad, then?

Well, like I said, we've got some money in savings, and we could be debt free if how much we wanted to, but we probably have about 54,000 in liquid.

What?

And how much debt do you have again?

Totally. Mmm, let's see. 19 for his student loan, 30 for the truck. The last time I checked, it's probably lower now and then 5000 for my car.

Okay, so you could be debt free by nightfall.

You said if we wanted to. So you're telling us you don't want to be debt free?

I really do.

Prove it. Liquidate that bank account and pay off the debt today.

I think that he would divorce me if we didn't talk about it.

Well, no, I don't want you to do without talking.

I never said do it in secret.

No, we're not suggesting that. I think the two of you need to get on the same page. That's what the. So here's the thing. The discussion about the vacation is not really a discussion about the vacation. It's the symptom of a bigger problem. And the bigger problem is you all don't have an alignment on what your long term goals are and what winning looks like financially. I mean, for purposes of just loving you guys. Like, you're our friends. I don't care if you do our stuff. We think our stuff is the fastest, best way, and we've proven that. So I'll try to sell you on doing that. But I'm more concerned that the two of you get aligned and you're in agreement on where we're going. Right now, he's just working his butt off, and he's scared, and there never seems to be enough. And you want to go spend money on vacation, and so the tight watt in him raises up. Okay, but you guys, you're not talking about the bigger issues of clearing off all this debt, having all this savings, and you could clear off the debt by the. That by dinnertime.

You're not talking about the bigger issues of living on a budget together, because let's pretend you were debt free and had three to six months of expenses set aside and you didn't have any payments. But a house payment, a $500 vacation, is very affordable in an $85,000 household income. Agreed?

Oh, totally.

But I got to tell you, the guy I'm listening to, or the guy you're talking about, he's a great guy. He's a good man. He works his butt off probably 100%. Yeah. But he has absolutely no plan. And so his tight watt, his inner tight wad, raises up and slaps down anyone that wants to spend money because and that's a symptom of he doesn't know where we're going, even though he works his tail off. And so he'll. He'll get a tremendous amount of freedom by you two getting on an agreement. For instance, if you. If I could get you to agree to do the baby steps, both of you, with enthusiasm, then you take this money, you clean off the debt. You'd rebuild the emergency fund very quickly. You'd be able to go on vacation. He'd be able to fund his retirement. He would have. He would relax because he's pretty tight inside right now. I can feel it just thinking about him.

Yeah.

Why do you think he would be against using the savings to pay off the debt?

Because he doesn't see a plan. If he saw it as a part of a plan.

No, we worked hard to save up this money. We're not using it.

The plan, that savings is a cushion. But if you. No one would logically do that. But the only reason you logically do it is if it takes me somewhere. Right. It's got, a, we got to know that we're going to, a, replenish it, and then, b, we're going to build serious wealth because we made these moves, because we take these stupid butt car payments and stupid, but student loan payments, and now they become investments.

You stop paying for the past, and you start building for the future.

Absolutely. But when you've got that as a part of a plan, then you'll release that 54,000. But just saying, individually, can I go on vacation? It doesn't make sense. Individually, can we pay off the $54,000? No, you can't. You gotta look at this as a part of a whole strategy, and then you get tremendous power from being aligned on it. But you guys not being in alignment is what this vacation discussion exposes. Not that he's right and you're wrong, or you're wrong and he's right. Both of you are wrong because you're not in alignment. And you don't have a. You don't have an overall game plan that takes you where you want to be in ten years. You're sitting over here dabbling in the edges of the Ramsey stuff. He's over here working his butt off, trying to stack cash. Meanwhile, got debt to take, clawing his back off.

I'm also confused what part of the world you live in where you can go on a beach vacation for $500 with a bunch of girls from Little Rock, Arkansas. I'd be impressed if you pulled that.

Off that's gas money.

Yeah. And food. No lodging. No fun.

Yeah. We're sleeping on the beach. This is the Ramsay show. Hey, guys, it's Rachel Cruz. When it comes to teaching kids about money, moms tell me all the time just how overwhelming it can feel to get started. That's why I'm so excited to tell you about financial peace, kids. This toolkit was designed to make learning to save, earn, spend, and give money fun for both you and your kids. The best part, it only takes ten minutes a day. Yep, just ten minutes.

You've got this pick up. Financial peace, kids@ramsaysolutions.com. store. That's ramsaysolutions.com store.

George Camel Ramsey personality is my co host. Folks, we now have officially crossed the line. The every dollar budgeting app is the world's most powerful budgeting app. It is insanely popular. Tens of millions of you are using it, and we are honored by that. Thank you. It is absolutely an incredible piece of software that drives this app. It does everything for you. It makes budgeting simple. You can not only track your expense expenses, but when you do the premium every dollar version, you can walk through the whole paycheck planning thing. Will actually, using the digital model is so robust, it'll help you work the baby steps, and it'll call you out if you're not doing it like you want to call in here and go, Dave, I'm not really doing the baby step. Every dollar is going to go, shut up. Don't even call Dave. Just don't do it anymore. It's going to, it's like going to smart off at you, right? Doesn't it, George?

That's a premium feature. You get Dave to yell at you inside of the budget.

There's a little sass built into the software. I'm just saying, well, it is ours. Why would it not be sassy if it's not ours? I mean, come on.

It's not lifeless. It's got a little personality to, it's.

Got a little personality. Every dollar, the world's best budgeting app. You can start for free on the app store or Google Play, or you can go to everydollar.com and check it out. If you don't, you're gonna be one of the few people in America pretty soon that don't have it, or for that matter, around the world. I'm amazed at how many of people are downloading this thing. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. But I gotta tell you, it's, it's working. And the guys are improving it every day. I'm watching some beta tests on some of the things that we've not released to the public yet. Some of these features. This thing in a year is gonna be. I mean, it's amazing workshop.

When you go over to that floor, they are just whittling away.

Santa's workshop is right. With a bunch of serious nerd programmers. Yeah, instead of elves. But they're similar.

Very similar.

Very similar in personality.

Anyway, you can find both at Comic Con. There we go.

Jeremy's with us in Cedar rat rapids. Hey, Jeremy, what's up?

Hey, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call.

Sure. How can we help?

Yeah, so I've really got a two part question. The first part being the company I work for, I've been employed with them for 17 years, and they just announced the sale of the company that's projected to close the middle part of next year. So my question really is, should I stay on board and take part in a severance package that would be available at close? That I would be walking away with about $40,000 in a severance package. And then I have two stock options that it would best as well. That would be around $18 to $19,000. So that's the first part of my question right there. Or should I be looking to jump ship and finding out what I want to do for my next career?

Now, what do you make?

Around 95,000.

Okay, so we're talking about a $58,000 swing in this discussion. Did I get that right?

Correct. Yes.

What would be wrong with lining up the next thing to start the day after you got that $58,000 package?

That would certainly be beneficial. Yeah. I mean, it's a year out, so I'd have to.

I know, but I mean, why don't we use that strategy? What would be wrong with that strategy? Is there some downside to hanging around till the end if you've got the next gig lined up?

Right? Yeah. I think the fear maybe is just more finding a job that would allow me to still provide for my family. Since I do make 95,000, I don't know that there's a lot out there in that range for me currently.

What do you do?

I've been in sales my whole career, but I work in operations currently. I transferred to that about a year ago.

Well, you make 95,000 in sales almost anywhere, dude. Yeah, you know how to sell. You can always find a job, right?

I want something those going to provide a better work life balance for my family. Than sales and that's why I left.

Sales have a bad work life balance.

I'm in retail sales.

Well, you don't have to be. You could just be in sales.

Sure.

I got salespeople that come in at 730 and leave at 530 and they make more than 95. If you know how to sell, you know how to sell. You don't have to be in retail sales.

Sure. Yep. And so, I mean, that certainly could be a lane that I look to pursue. I was really just trying to figure out the best plan to.

The best plan is to have the next gig lined up. That makes 110,000. That starts the day after your $58,000 package drops in your lap. That's the best plan.

Okay.

Because you make 58,000 signing bonus going into the next deal and you make more money going in the next deal and you got a year heads up to go find the next deal and line it up to start then I've started about ten people here. Let me think that I personally was involved in the hiring decision on and we had to delay their start so they could run out the end of their severance package so we could be on the receiving end of getting great people. In other words, we would want you and so we would allow you to go ahead and make the decision. We'd make the decision to hire you and we normally would start you in two weeks, but you're not able to start for four months because you got to run this thing out and get you an extra 58k that I'm not going to pay you when I hire you. You. And so I'll put up with that as the hiring side of the equation in order to get this. And I've done that with high level executive positions too. I mean, I had one that had several hundred thousand dollars on the table that that person was going to get when they came here and they did get, but we had to delay their start date and we wanted them in order for it to line up with their other deal vesting in.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes total sense. I guess my concern was just how long would a company hold a position? It sounds like based.

Depends on how bad they want you.

Yeah.

And there might be another one that opens up a year from now when they get back in touch because you made the connection.

Yeah, I think. I think you got to get your pipeline full of possibilities and then your worries go down.

Got it. Yeah. That sounds awesome.

Right now, the unknown. The unknown is what's driving you crazy. Yeah, that's the direction to go. But if you can line it up now, if, if somebody comes along and offers you two hundred k and you.

Got to start tomorrow, forget the.

Well, screw it. Yeah, walk away from the 58 because you just got $105,000 raise, right. You can do that math. But if they're going to offer you 95 to 95 and you're going to have to walk away from 58, I'm going to keep looking. And I got to quit tomorrow. No, I'm not. No, we're going to ride this thing on out. If you got that much in there now, you know, and I don't know what those stock options, you need to understand what the sale is going to do to the value of those stock options. I don't know what that is. You seem to have that nailed down, but I'm not sure exactly how that works in that world because I don't know this stock and I don't know this deal, but I'd want to learn those things, too. But, yeah, that's the thing to do. So, George, one of the things that Ken Coleman talks about a lot, and I love discussing with him is, and this guy, you know, he didn't say this, but a lot of people in these situations, I lost my job, okay? Because that's basically what he's saying. It's just a matter of time.

He's lost his job immediately. The first thing that happens to any human being when that occurs is fear. If not, you're weird, right? The first thing is you get afraid. But immediately after you get afraid, what we want to train people to do, and Ken's talked about this a lot, is possibility thinking rather than. Because what happens is I talk to people, they go, yeah, well, you know, I'm gonna lose my job in two months. And, and, you know, I'm not gonna be able to get a job making as much. Why not? Once you get a job making more, why is it that automatically you have to take a pay cut just because you're changing? Why don't you get a pay increase when you're changing? You would never have left the job voluntarily to make less money. And so, you know, you haven't been out there looking around yet. You don't know how real they're just, you might be prettier than you think you are. You know, that's the hope.

And usually what happens is that next job ends up paying more. Rarely do people go to the next thing, and it's wildly less. And so, well, it is if they.

Accept defeat before they actually fight the battle. Yeah, you know, go ahead. Don't surrender. We haven't been fighting yet. Go and raise the flag just because you're quit. No, no, no, no. Roll up your sleeves. Go get it, baby. Go get you some. And there's plenty of stuff going on in the marketplace right now. This is a wonderful time to be looking for a job. And let me just tell you, if you can develop the skill of serving people by helping them do business with your company, that's called sales. If you can develop the scale, the site, not, not sales and manipulation and skeezy tactics, greasy, grimy, slimy stuff. But if you can develop the skill of serving people well with something you believe in. I believe in our everydollar app. I don't. I have zero qualms about telling you to go get that. That's me serving you. That's selling you. And I'm going to do that the rest of my life. And so you find something like that that you can represent with integrity, and you can serve people, and you develop that skill of talking people through that and letting them see the brand differentiation, the value, build value for them.

If you know how to sell, you're always going to have a job.

You'll never go hungry.

AI can't replace that. I'm just saying. And there's no digital thing that will replace it. Human beings talking to other human beings in a way that causes them to be served is a, is a very, very old profession, baby.

It's not going out of style.

Yeah. And it's gonna. It's gonna be around. So this guy, he's really got a lot. He's a lot prettier than he feels like he is, right.

I like that.

This is the Ramsey show. Are you planning to sail with us on the live like no one else cruise? Then you better book your cabin before they're sold out. If you're on, baby, step four and above, come aboard March 22 through the 29th of 2025 as we set sail for Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, San Juan and the Bahamas. Join me, the Ramsey personalities and a ton of special guests for the ultimate debt free celebration. Book your cabin because they are going fast. Head to ramsaysolutions.com cruise today. George Camel, Ramsey Personality, is my co host today. Open phones at triple 8825-5225 Jay is with us in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Hi, Jay. How are you, Dave, how are you doing? Good, man. How can we help?

Well, I'm new to the show, and I'm sure you get this question a lot, but I've never heard the answer. I'm trying to figure out why I should pay off a 2% mortgage with money that's making 5% or 15% or whatever. I mean, I can pay it off, but, man, I. Twelve years left on a 2% loan. It's. I can't.

What's your balance?

Find the reasoning. 92,000.

So I understand your question. And as a math nerd, I used to make all of my decisions through the math lens as well. The more I've developed teaching this stuff and learning about it over 30 years and working with very, very wealthy people, a couple things that come to mind, and I completely grasp your concept. It seems ludicrous in the way you're looking at it, to do that. But let's. Let's first break down and say, what are you really making? Okay, so at 92,000, I'll round it up for your benefit to 100. So the math is real easy. And so if you're. If you're paying out 2%, and let's just say you're making 7%, you're netting five. Agreed?

Yes.

Okay. And so that's $5,000, right?

Yes.

Okay. What's your household income?

It's about 140.

Okay. All right. And, well, it's actually more than that.

Because I collect a pension as well.

How old are you?

I am 63.

Okay. So am I. So, okay, so can we agree that $5,000 a year, $400 a month, is not going to make substantial difference in your wealth?

I mean, we can agree that.

Yeah, it's $400. A lot of families spend that on pizza.

Right.

Okay. So, I mean, it's not a lot of money we're talking about. So more than anything, we're talking about a concept, than an actual fact. And the reason I know that is, is that we ended up a few years ago studying millionaires because I became very interested in what makes people wealthy. And we did the largest study of millionaires ever done. We studied 10,167 of them. And we found, by the way, that 89% of them were like you. They're first generation rich. Because I've got a feeling you're a millionaire. Are you?

No, not yet.

I got a feeling you're pretty close, though. How much equity you got in that house?

I got where I'm at right now, I probably got about 150.

Now. What do you got in your nest egg?

I got about, I don't know, 400.

Okay. You're about halfway, then. 650. Okay. Yeah. You're sitting on pretty good coin, though. You're not a broke guy. Okay.

No.

So you've done well. Congratulations. So what we found, as we study these millionaires was we asked them questions of what caused them to build their wealth, where did their wealth come from, and because we want to know, okay. If 89% of them are first generation, it's important to know that nine out of ten millionaires in North America today became millionaires by doing stuff. So what did you do? The number of them that said, I kept a mortgage and invested it because I made the difference was almost zero was weird.

It was weird that because, I mean, traditionally, we haven't had 2% mortgages.

Well, but even. Even if you made at a 6% mortgage, if you had it in a mutual fund and you're making twelve, you ought to be making 5%, 6% on it, you ought to still be making that $5,000 spread. But the point is that $5,000 is 430 or $416 a month, which is not spit. It's not enough to cause you to become a millionaire. So it's weird. What we did discover in further analysis was with the actual data of real wealthy people not discussing concept, but discussing people that really did it was the freedom that they felt by having zero debt allowed them to negotiate with their employer. Different. It allowed their relationships to be at a different level because there's zero stress. And you would purport to say there's zero stress here because I'm not stressed about this. But you have stress that you wouldn't have if you were debt free. We have to all say that if you had zero debt, your stress level goes down. Oh, and by the way, that actually has a physical component to it, too. The number of people with hypertension in America is at the highest level it's ever been.

High blood pressure is at the highest level it's ever been. Heart attacks at the highest level they've ever been. Oh, by the way, debt levels are at the highest level they've ever been. There is a correlation in a cause effect series here in the data. And so as we get into all of that, what we bottom line is you can keep doing what you're doing. It. We wouldn't call you stupid, but the data says that people don't really do that, that are building wealth. They really pay off their mortgage, and they really take their old mortgage payment and invest it in their 401k so that they have more money. That's what the actual data tells us, and that's good news. But we talked about this in the investment seminar a little bit that the difference in the thing we're leaving out of this discussion is risk.

The beta.

Yeah. You're not talking about risk. You do carry risk when you carry a mortgage, because we've done research, 100% of the foreclosures occur on a home with a mortgage.

And there's a lot more to this. There's the mathematical side. Like you mentioned, most people don't actually look at their amortization schedule on their mortgage because you might see, I'm actually paying $600 a month toward interest right now because of how this thing's weighted right now. You're not making that. And unless you have the full 92,000 in a 5% account, which is almost nobody, doesn't sound like he had all that money sitting there, necessarily, then it's not even apples to apples. And another piece is, people forget on the Ramsey plan, you're investing 15% while paying off the house. So it's not a trade off of saying, I'm not going to invest it. Instead I'm going to pay off the mortgage, then on tv.

But he's just saying in general, on the concept of, why would you ever pay off a 2% mortgage when you can invest it at ten? That's a standard question. He's right. He's a new listener. It's a good conversation. Thank you for calling in with that, by the way, because people think we're crazy for suggesting you do pay it off. But the rationalization of the justification, the reasoning, none of that. The reasoning for the advice is that it's right because the data shows that the borrower is slave to the lender. The data shows your relationships are different, your career path changes, and you make more money because you're not. If you're. If you're running your own business and you have zero debt, you make different decisions running the business, and you take fewer crazy risks and more proper risks in your business because you can, and it doesn't scare you anymore. You're not. You're not playing desperate, you're not playing. Not playing small ball. And I've watched small business people prosper beyond belief because their brain is freed up. They don't have this monkey riding their.

Back, living in your head rent free. The other piece is, I want to ask different questions. Do I want to be 63 with a mortgage? You know, who, like, who dreams when they become homeowners? Man, I hope I get to hang on to this thing forever. I mean, there's just a life you get to live when you don't have a payment. I mean, mortgage means death pledge in French. Did you know that?

Yes.

Death pledge. That's what you're signing up for. And so I'm going to live more freely. I want to live in my sixties with and free up a payment, invest it, and you're going to be okay either way. But in the meantime, goodness, I want to get that mortgage off my back.

Yeah. So it is Jay also doing the show. All these years, I have noticed that people that have pretty serious wealth never ask this question, and that's not to make fun of you, but they just don't. It never occurs to them. They're on Georgia side. They're like, I don't want to be in a death pledge. I want to be out of debt. And they don't even necessarily know why. Sometimes they just have this penchant to get away from it. But your most powerful wealth building tool is your income. And when you don't owe anybody any money, you can use that income. That 140,000 is a lot more powerful than the $416 and any spread you could make.

And, Dave, I did this when I was in my early thirties. We paid off our house. And, you know, my financial advisor and creator friends were like, dude, you're an idiot. I can't believe you paid off your mortgage at three point. What? And I'm like, guys, life is more than a spread. I got goals. You know, my wife is able to stay home now because we don't have a mortgage payment. And so you got to think bigger than just a mathematical spread on a piece of paper.

Well, I've been doing this so long that I've seen people's lives change and all areas of their life, and that actually has a mathematical effect as well. For instance, you don't have to work for a toxic boss. You can go work for somebody else that pays you more, and you have a better quality of life. Your stress level goes down, your doctor bills go down. All these things run together.

More options, more margin, more freedom, more joy. I'll take it.

Turns out God knew what he was talking about.

Get rid of the death pledge.

The borrower is slave to the lender. You don't believe me? Try paying it all off and see if you don't feel like you're free. This is the Ramsay show, our scripture of the day, Luke 1610. Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much. And whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. Winston Churchill said, a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth gets a chance to get its pants on. That's a truth, especially these days.

Social media.

Yeah. That's what the Internet's for. Everything. Everything on the Internet's true. Abraham Lincoln said that. All right. Chris is with us. Chris is in Miami, Florida. Hi, Chris. How are you?

Hi, Dave. Good. So, my wife and I were going through. You know, we try and follow the Ramsey solutions as much as we can. The only debt we have right now is a mortgage, and we have a home equity line as well that we took out to replace our roof. So we're attacking the home equity line to try and get that paid off. The question that we would have is, should I sell. We both. We own both of our cars. Should I sell my truck to pay the equity line off faster? We have it. We are planning right now is to pay the equity line off in about nine months. No, I sell my truck. We could probably do that in about three.

No, you should. You should just pay it off in nine months.

Okay.

And you ought to cut some other stuff out of the budget and do it in six months, but you ought to keep the truck. That's not enough time to. You know, if you told me it's gonna take you three, four years or something, and selling your truck would cause you to do it in nine months, I'd sell your truck. But if you sell your truck now, nine months later, you're gonna be looking for a truck because you'll be out of debt. You'll have the money to buy a truck, and you'll be able to do that on the baby steps. Right.

Right.

And the truck is paid off.

Trucks pay only.

That. Is the heloc.

The only debt. Yeah. Is our first mortgage, then the Heloc.

Yeah. What's the balance on the heloc?

About 38,000.

Okay. And your household income must be over 100.

About 275.

Okay. Okay. Shut up. On the nine months, it's 38,000. Cut your freaking lifestyle and pay that thing off, and then get you some money saved so you're never doing this again. You're too. You make too much money. Be the stinking.

You're making 20 grand a month.

Hello, world.

We're also what? Yes. We're also maxing out our 401 k's that we both put 23,000 a year into our 401 keys.

Okay. Well, we tell folks when they're in debt to stop all 401K investing. But I wouldn't do that in your case, either, because you're going to be out of debt in six months or less because you're going to be able to just, you know, I don't think you pinch this budget hard enough. I really don't. I mean, I don't care if you're maxing out your 401K, you're making for freaking quarter million dollars a year plus, okay, so you know, you've got the margin in this. You guys need to look at the budget and go, look, this whole thing of being broke was stupid. We're almost through it now and we need to knock this thing out and then get us an emergency fund. Hey, hey, wait, wait. Just, just, just, just a second. Hold on.

Come back. Chris.

Where?

Dave's not done with you.

Where'd he go? How much do you have in your savings?

We have about 15,000 in liquid.

Okay. I would take that down to about 1000. And then I would do this in about three, in about a month and a half, two months, I'd be debt free. And then I would rebuild your emergency fund to a proper amount of three to six months of expenses. And then I would start your 401K. In your case, you're going to do this so fast. I would stop and restart your four hundred one k two months later. Because you're going to do this real fast. If you, you guys are doing about six things at once poorly. Does that make sense? And all I want you to do is slow down and focus on one thing. Knock that out, then knock the next thing out, then knock the next thing out. And if you'll just do that and do that with a really tight budget and say, look, we're not spending any money till we're out of debt and have an emergency fund in place. No more spending, people. We're turning off your freaking Amazon prime. Okay? We're turning off your stupid little thing you had planned for the summer. We are getting this mess cleaned up.

We make too much money to constantly be living paycheck to paycheck and asking a $38,000 question when I make 275. Dude, dial it in. Knock it out. You can do this. You can do this. Hang on. We're going to get you guys signed up. I want you and your wife on the every dollar budget together. And I want you all to sit down and have a serious discussion about avoiding this kind of thing again. You make too much money to even have to borrow this money in the first place to put a roof on. You should have been put a stinking roof on your house when you make 275. And so all of that and the reason I'm talking to you like this, Chris, is one of the things I discovered in my personal life as I went through going broke and losing everything and starting again. And I've watched it with people for 30 years. The people that win with money are not the people that feel like everything's okay. They're the ones that get pissed off. They get disgusted, and they say stuff like, I make too much money to be this broke.

That's why I'm saying it for you. You make too much money to be this broke, Chris. You need to be disgusted about that. Enough to do something about dialing this in, managing this tighter. You don't have to live on beans and rice, but you do for about, I don't know, the next 20, about next two months, because you need to get this thing paid off, and you get your emergency fund built back up as fast as you can, and then we'll start talking about going out to eat again, and we'll talk about doing all this other stuff again. But there's a lack of focus and an organizational laziness in your symptoms here.

We need to change some habits. Selling the truck is a one time thing. You got to change the habits that got you to this point, and that's where this next two months of sacrificing will help change that.

Yeah. If you're willing to do something as radical as sell a truck, it's not what I'm asking you to do to get organized.

It's less radical.

And focused is less radical than selling your truck.

It's a few lifestyle twists.

It's less radical than telling you to cut off your four hundred one k. And I didn't tell you to do that even just because you're gonna do this so fast. If you'll lean into the other things, if you're gonna screw around with this stuff for six or eight or ten months on all of it, you need to stop your 401K temporarily till you get your. Till you get your crap together. But I think you make enough money to do it without stopping, either without selling the truck or stopping the 401K for a short, because it's such a short timeframe. You start it and restop it, it's gonna create all this dad gum paper logistical nightmare. Same thing as selling the truck. Turn around, buying another truck. So it's a good question. But, folks, let me tell you, this personal finance thing is 80% behavior. So a healthy level of getting disgusted with your former self is part of a part, is part of turning things around. I'm not living like this anymore. I don't want to feel like this anymore. I don't want to have these discussions with my spouse anymore that sound like this.

I don't want these words coming out of my mouth. Jade talks about when she was growing up that they would say, we ain't got no money. And she said, I don't want to ever have a house where we have to say, we ain't got no money. See, that's a. That's a no. It stops with me. I'm breaking the chains. I'm breaking the curse of my family tree. It stops with me. This is the last Ramsey that's going to have this discussion about debt. Uh, because the rest of them, I'm going to disown them if they go in debt. That's it. I mean, we're just not going to do this anymore. That stops with me. And, you know, you can do this. You guys can make a decision to change your family tree.

You got to have those values and principles. If you got nothing to stand on, then you're going to fall for the next thing that comes your way, and that's where that value is. We don't do debt. It's off the table.

Yeah. And so roof needs to be fixed to make 275. We put the roof off to 24. We put the roof off two months and we pay cash for it, or three months, whatever it is. But, yeah, that, that's, you know, when you take debt off the table as a possibility, it forces you to think differently about all the different things you're doing.

And it forces you to move at the speed of cash.

Yeah.

Forces you to change your lifestyle.

Yeah. And focus in. But there's nothing wrong. It's not shaming to say what I was doing was stupid, and I'm not doing that anymore. It's different than saying I'm stupid. I'm stupid is shaming. But what I was doing is stupid. That's not shaming. That's just saying I learned something about the law of gravity. I fell off the freaking porch. You know, that was stupid. That doesn't mean I'm stupid. But I had to learn a lesson about the law of gravity. And so, you know, I. Man, I gotta tell you, the number of stupid butt stuff I have done, and I'm a pretty smart guy, is crazy. My only goal is not do the same one twice.

Shame. What is it? Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you.

Something like that.

I forget. I don't know. I'm not good at these quotes, Dave?

That sounds right. Maybe a nursery rhyme.

But I just kept thinking of the George Bush version of that, you know, where he fumbled it.

Oh, did he?

Yeah.

I don't even want to know.

I'll show you after the show's over. It's that good.

Oh, my gosh.

But that's a good life lesson. I love one of your quotes, David. You know, what is it? Success is a pile of failure that you're just standing on top of.

Yeah. Instead of laying under it. That means I learned from my mistakes. Right? The number of people that I know that are successful, that made zero mistakes is zero. There. There are people that they learn all the time. They're always doing something stupid. But it's just one more thing I stand on top of. It's a, you know, success. The gleaming mountain of success is really a pile of garbage. You're standing on it. That's how it works, boys and girls. Sorry to upset your apple cart, but that's the deal. Good call, man. Thank you for letting us, giving us a jumping off place that puts us our Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back. Back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the prince of peace. Christ Jesus. Hey, folks. Dave here. You want to hear even more life changing content from Ramsey? Download the Ramsey Network app so you can catch all your favorite shows all in one place, like the Ramsey show, smart money, happy Hour, and the doctor John Deloney show. Get real. Talk about life, relationships, money, and your career.

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