Welcome to the Rest is Politics US. I'm Anthony Scaramucci. I'm the former White House communications director for Donald Trump, fired after 11 short days, but worked on his campaign for nine months and had been involved in presidential politics, primarily as a fundraiser and donor for the last 25 years.

And I'm Cathy K. I'm a US Special Correspondent for BBC Studios. I've been covering American politics for 25 years. This will be my sixth US presidential campaign. This is the first ever episode. I want to explain a little bit about what we're going to do every week when we release these shows on Fridays. We're going to start by talking, of course, about the news of the day. We'll get to that in a second. Then we want to broaden out to bigger cultural issues and what Anthony and I are observing in this incredibly complicated, fascinating country and how it all ties in, of course, to the 2024 We're going to start with the news of the week from New York City and that Manhattan courtroom and Donald Trump on trial, and how terminal might this be for his campaign? What's the problem for his campaign here? Of course, all of you will remember that This is the hush money trial that is taking place in New York. Donald Trump has actually been indicted in four separate criminal cases. One of them is a civil fraud case, and this is the one of the four that is coming to trial in New York.

It all surrounds the adult porn star, Stormy Daniels, and whether he paid her off in order to keep her story about him having an affair with her quiet so that he could get elected President of the United States. It's all fabulous sleazy stuff that is taking place up in New York. He, of course, denies all of this. It's actually a technicality because it was their falsification of business records that took place to disguise a campaign payment to the wonderfully named Stormy Daniels. We're going to take a look at what that means for his political campaign. I mean, one of the things that interests me about this trial is what this means for Donald Trump. I want to hear your thoughts on this, Anthony, because you worked for Donald Trump in the White House for a few days, but you spent a lot more time with him on the campaign trail. Even though we knew Donald Trump was going to be a defendant in this case, watching him day after day, having to sit in this a dingy courtroom and being treated like any other defendant, looking bored, nodding off occasionally, looking irritated. I don't think I've ever spent so much time thinking about the psychological impact of being a defendant in a criminal trial and how exhausting that must be, particularly for somebody like Donald Trump, who has tons of energy, loves to express his opinion all the time, wants to talk all the time, wants to be the center of the attention, wants to control events.

As much Which, as anything, I find this trial fascinating for what it's doing to him every single day out there in New York.

Well, for starters, I just want you to imagine somebody that has gotten away with everything for six decades. He's pushed the envelope, he can bully people. He can say things about people that nobody else can get away with. As an example, he'll say that he likes his POWs, his veterans not captured versus captured, and in a way, denigrating somebody like John McCain. He's got away with everything, and he thought he was going to get away with this. What was interesting about this case is that one person, one of the witnesses on the case, Michael Cohen, who I know very well, has gone to jail already for this case. Now, someone will say, Well, he went to jail specifically for the perjury, Patty, but he went to jail effectively for the slees in the case and for the obstruction that the case caused. Now, Donald Trump is sitting there on trial for something that one of his millions already got caught doing. I think the psychology of this is, wait, whoa, wait a minute, six decades of getting away with everything. This may be the time in my life where I've come to the end of my rope, and I'm not going to get away with things.

The one thing I would just say to you is that he's not actually being treated like other people that are being prosecuted in a criminal court. If someone like you or me, for example, or someone listening, did the things that Donald Trump has done in the courtroom, he would already be thrown in jail, mega fines, silenced immediately.

Because of the gag orders, you mean?

Yeah, because of the gag order. What's interesting here is he's at the end of his rope, not getting away with certain things. Yet he's going on these radio shows, attacking witnesses, threatening witnesses. And definitely, you're not allowed to do that in our courts, but he's getting away with it. So the real question is, and I push it back to you, 25 years of observing this, is he going to get away with it again this time? Will he be exonerated? Is there one MAGA witness in that 12-person group of witnesses that's going to allow him to get off from hell or high water.

Yeah, I think that's the question for him. Does he get acquitted outright? Do the members of the jury, all of them, say, We, the jury of his peers, find Donald Trump not guilty of of falsifying his business records in order to interfere with the 2016 election? Or does he have a hung jury? One member of the jury says, Actually, you know what? I don't think the prosecution has enough evidence to show that he was intending to falsify his business records to cover up this hush money payment, Stormy Daniels. Or is he found guilty by all 12 members of the jury? I think all of those have different implications for the 2024 election. If he's found not guilty, then that plays into his argument that all of this is just a political witch hunt, and the government is overreaching, and he is being attacked by the deep state, just like you, my MAGA supporters, are being attacked by the Deep State. If it's a hung jury, I think he gets some of that benefit. I think he can still go and say, You see what? I wasn't found guilty. A member of the jury decided that actually I was innocent.

If he's found guilty, then I think that's more problematic for him in terms of his ability to go out to the country. Remember, we're going to hear the next four weeks hearing about porn stars and the fact that he is accused of having an affair with a porn star when his wife had just given birth to a child. Now, I've had a few children. I would not have loved it if my husband went off and had an affair with a porn star after I'd just given birth. I mean, that's just like there's a ton of suburban mothers out there who might say, Guys, this is not great behavior. The impact that this could all have, just hearing the testimony, whatever the outcome is from the jury, just hearing this testimony day after day after day, I wonder what impact that's going to have on suburban women voters.

Well, listen, I went to law school, and I only learned one thing in law school, Patty, and that was, don't be a lawyer. I think that was the most obvious thing I learned in law school. But I have a lot of friends that are DAs. I have friends that actually work in the Southern district. The Southern district, which is federal courts in the United States has a 99% conviction rate. If they take a case and you want to go to trial with them, it's 99%. Sam Bankman-Fried, an example, the cryptocurrency fraudster, he took the case, they convicted him on all counts. The Southern district of the United States and the federal courts did not take this case. I think it's important to express that to our viewers and listeners. When you ask those guys who are buddies mind, well, what are the likelihood of the prosecutors winning this case? They say 60 to 70%. So there's a two-thirds chance that Trump gets convicted. Okay, well, what if he gets convicted? I've asked prosecutors before the show, what do you think happens? Well, he's the former President of the United States, so he's likely to get a fine, potentially some home confinement, but he's not going to go to jail.

Could he have an ankle bracelet on him? Would he have to campaign remotely for a period of time and beam himself into his rallies? Possibly. This is not, in my opinion, the election-killing case if it goes to full fruition and they actually get the conviction that they're looking for. But it is gnarly, and it is something that the Democrats should exploit, particularly, as you say, as it relates to the suburban women.

There's an interesting money side of this, though, isn't there, Anthony? Because, of course, while he's stuck in that courtroom, which he just looks He looks like he is stuck in a theme park place you'd love to be, but which I would hate to be in, he looks like he's not having a good time. He's not a happy camper. One of the reasons he's not a happy camper is he can't be out on the campaign trail while he's stuck in Manhattan courtroom, raising money for his campaign, part of which, of course, goes to pay for his legal fees. But I wonder what impact this has on the campaign more generally. When you were with him on the campaign in 2016, and you're flying all over the country, and you're holding rallies, and you're raising money and going to fundraisers, how much does the fact that he can't be doing that at the moment impact his campaign and his campaign's prospects, do you think?

Listen, on the margin, I think it does affect him. On the margin, I think it's demoralizing to his staff. The glaring obvious thing here is no Melania in the court, no Avanka in the court, no family members in the court. So they're obviously upset at the facts of the case. I think there's another thing lingering here, Patty, and I'll push it back to you. I think everybody knows this is true. So he did this. There's no question about it. In the immortal words of the great Norman, Mitt Romley, another person I also work for, You don't pay $138 $40,000 for somebody not to have sex with him.

That was a very good line from Mitt Romney.

You know, Mitt, okay, if I had to put all my money on, Mitt has never had sex outside his marriage, all my money is going on that. So you know this is true. And The result of it is, do the American people really care? One of the things we learned on the Romney campaign is that Americans like bad behavior. Mitt was a model citizen. He got mad at me once because he said, What do you think is going wrong for me? I said, Well, you look like a Ken doll. I said, That's going wrong for you. He said, Well, what do you mean? I said, Well, Mitt, when you pull the pants down on a Ken doll, you're flat in front. You follow what I'm saying? You don't have enough balls going on here.

Strapping He was taking his dog to the roof of his car, that was not enough bad behavior, clearly.

I think that hurt him, too. But the overperfection probably hurt him because most Americans have a tattoo, most Americans are overweight, most Americans have problems in their marriage. Most Americans have issues. When they look at Trump and they see those flaws and that bad boy behavior, I think they've chosen, in Trump's case, to ignore it. He's the first politician that has broken all the taboos, Patty. Thirty years ago, Bill Clinton said that he smoked pot, but he didn't inhale pot. That was a big taboo to say something like that, right? Now, these guys are going on the Bill Marshow smoking pot with him. My point being is the entire world has changed, Trump has changed that world, whether we like it or not. He has dented and shifted the discourse in the American political society. He's made a courses. He's a bully, and he's given license now to way more bad behavior.

I agree with all of that. And I'm going to do a yes, but, which my husband always hates it when I do a yes, but. But I'm going to push back a bit because I wonder whether actually what the American public is feeling right now is not the titulation factor of some bad boy behavior, Donald Trump versus super pristine Mitt Romney. It's a complete exhaustion factor. And look at the fact that there's no one out there in New York. Where are the crowds? Where are the demonstrations? Where are the people chanting his name outside the courthouse? Everybody's bored. They're bored of the Donald Trump show. They're exhausted by the Donald Trump show. We've been hearing about Stormy Daniels. We know even that Stormy Daniels' name comes from the fact it's the name of her first dog and the street she grew up on. We know way too much about Stormy Daniels. I think it's like, I don't know that we want to watch this movie again. My sense of the American public at the moment is that there's a feeling that this is yet more chaos and that this is the chaos that comes if Donald Trump is reelected.

More than that, just exhaustion with the election, generally. It's not just with Donald Trump, it's also with Joe Biden. People are turned off by the whole thing. I think this trial, if anything, it's revealing some of that. Maybe the public's exhaustion is going to be Joe Biden's secret weapon because they're going to watch this trial and think, Actually, you know what? Reruns. We in America, we don't like reruns. We like new shows. Come on, Hollywood, give us something new. Donald Trump drove up turnout like crazy in 2016. He drove up turnout in 2018. He drove up turnout in 2020. He drove up turnout in 2022. But there was an MBC poll out this week that showed the enthusiasm for this election as it is lowest level in 40 years. If anything, that probably plays to Joe Biden's advantage because some of that lack of enthusiasm comes from watching Donald Trump sitting in a courtroom and talking about porn stars and hush money payments.

Well, listen, I think it's a brilliant and insightful analysis. But what I'm more impressed about is that you know the origin of Stormy Dangel's stage name.

I do have to think, though, that my first animal, my first pet was called Dog. We had a dog called Dog, and I lived on a street called London Road. So my stage name would be Dog London, which just it doesn't work, does it?

Dog London doesn't work, but it could work, though, because that's how brands are. It could work.

In this case, by the way, Anthony just has the most... You couldn't make them up. It's the most extraordinary names.

Well, I mean, Stormy made up her name. I give her credit for that. But God gave David Pecker this name. All right, is this the best? That we have the chief witness for the prosecution. The guy's last name is Pecker. I mean, do you love this? I personally love it. I feel like there are no coincidences in the universe, Patty. And this is God's way of letting us know that you should be having a little bit of fun in sports, religion, and politics.

Yeah. If you were writing this in Hollywood as a screenplay, probably your editor would say, Don't be ridiculous. That's not possible.

But you're saying something that I think people need to understand and to really open up the hood of what is going on. The engine is misfiring. I know people say, he worked for Trump. They got into a spat. He doesn't like Trump, blah, blah. It's actually more than that. I've tried to be objective about Trump. I want to be fair about his political instincts. I want to be fair about how he's moved the political zeitgeist in the society, how he is shaken to the core of the Republican Party. But there's something going on underneath all of this that I think people need to understand. He's sputtering. He's running out of money. His legal fees are through the roof. He's campaign donated are going towards the legal fees, not to the field offices. Patty, I submit to you, and I want to get your reaction to this. These are two people running for the presidency that are well known by the American public for five decades. Both of these people are known entities. This is not like a Barack Obama introduction tour circa 2008. These are known entities. Therefore, people have made a decision, the man or woman on the street, who do you like and why they've made the decision.

So I'm suggesting that this is a get out to vote election. And Joe Biden is going to win the popular vote. You know that, I know that. Even the Donald Trump people know that. So the way When Trump wins this, it's through the Electoral College. He came close in 2020. He lost only by 40,000 votes. And so now what is at stake here is how many field offices are going to be in these swing states. The former President doesn't have enough money to put as many field offices in as the current President.

Which is why all the money is going to be important. But I think all this trial is contributing to the sense that things are off kilter. The tension is high. The rhetoric is hot at the moment in America, not just around Donald Trump and not just around these trials, but we're seeing it play out a few miles north of that courtroom where he is in some of these university college campuses in New York. We're going to talk about that and what's happening on these college campuses. Is it really about Gaza or is something else going on? We're going to talk about that after the break.

Welcome back. In addition to everything that going on in the world of Trump and Biden, we have a big spillover into our nation's campuses, where there's a lot of people protesting, Patty. Tell us, set the scene there for us. Yeah.

We want to take a little step back and look at some of the broader cultural and social issues that are happening in the country. When you look at American college campuses, you've all seen the pictures of them and the protests that are taking place with students, imbroiled in this Israel-Gaza battle that is taking place thousands of miles away, but which seems to now have landed squarely in the middle of American universities. We wanted to look at what that might mean as well for the politics of the country, for the race. What happened is that last week, the administrators of Columbia University had to go before the Senate and testify about what they have done on campus since October the seventh in order to protect Jewish students who have been the victims of anti-Semitism and who say they feel safe on American campuses. This followed a previous testimony from the presidents of MIT and Harvard and Penn University, which led to two of those presidents after those hearings having to step down. The administrators of Columbia were very aware of what might happen. They knew their jobs were potentially on the line, and they went before this Republican-controlled committee in the House of Representatives, and they were much more in favor of restricting students who were trying to threaten Jewish students.

So they were much more on the side of the Jewish students and much more firm about what constituted unlawful violence on campus. As a result of that, they got some applause from the Republican members of the committee who said, Yeah, you've done a good job. You've made us satisfied. But then they went back to campus and all hell broke loose because the faculty and the students said that their right to free speech had been trampled on, and they were furious, and they started protesting again on campus and camping out in the middle of the campus quad. Actually, now what we see, Anthony, is this spreading around the country. It's disrupting classes. Classes have gone back online at Columbia because students say they don't feel safe. I know kids at Columbia University have just gone home because they say the atmosphere is so tense on campus. You've had a whole load of congressmen in the last few days also turning up at Columbia University, Republican congressmen saying, We stand with the Jewish students, and the President of the University should resign, and the administration isn't doing enough. What do I think? I think I I'm so glad that I am not part of a university administration in America at the moment because you have so many conflicting pressures.

You've got pressures from the student saying that this is a free speech issue. You've got pressure from the faculty. You've got pressure from these very wealthy donors who are often alumni of the colleges who are saying not enough is being done to protect Jewish students on campus and threatening to withdraw their donations, which these universities depend on in the United States. It's a mess. I get what you're saying, Anthony. I do think This, in some ways, reflects the tone and the heat and the temper and the violence and the anger in the American political system more broadly. America has become dysfunctional, and things can't get run. Whether you're at the college level or you're at the Congressional level, things are pretty dysfunctional at the moment.

Listen, I'm going to say something. It's going to probably offend everybody, but I'm going to say that the American people did better when their political leaders came out of the military. If you go back, we had conscription in the United States during the Second World War, First World War, Korean War, et cetera. We had 85% of the Congress was tied to the military, and most of the business leaders leaders, teachers even, were tied to the military, and there were certain standards and protocol that was put in place. People are not going to like me for saying all this, but that's the case. Even a George McGovern could fight with a Bob Dole. They were on opposite sides of the spectrum, but they both fought for freedom and the Constitution in World War II, and so there was more decorum. Because we don't have that anymore, in my opinion, there's a fraying overall in the society, and it's spilling over into a lack of protocol. I'll just point this out. In 1984, there were protests at Tufts University. They raided the administration building. I was a sophomore there at the time, and they were protesting South Africa and Apartheid, and they wanted a divestiture.

It was done peacefully. It was a pain in the you know what for the President of the school, but the late-grade Jean Maillard said it well, If we can't allow for peaceful protests on a college campus, Where on God's Earth are we going to allow for it? This is the lungs of the society, if you will. We had peaceful protests and non-peaceful protests during the Vietnam War, but I do think that that impacted the politics of that, and I think it helped to lead to a closure of that war. I want to push it back to you in a second, Patty, and ask you this question because I think this is a big impact. The demographics of the United States are changing once again. There are way more Arab Americans in the population that are exerting political influence. As an example, in Dearborn County, Michigan, many of the Arab-American community voted not for Joe Biden. They didn't vote for his competitor, but they just voted undecided or whatever they basically said. 170,000 people in that county could swing the entire presidential election. I push it back to you. You're a student of American politics and free speech, and free speech is very different here than in the UK.

How would you handle it? What would you do?

I think you have to make the rules on campus super clear. I had a conversation with the Chancellor of Vanderbilt University, which is perhaps a more conservative environment down in Nashville, Tennessee, than in New York City. He said it comes down to clarity. This is what you can do, and this is what you can't do. We allow what you can do, and we enforce rules against what you can't do. Maybe that's part of what needs to happen in these universities But it's interesting that you and I have had this conversation for the last... We've been chatting about this for a few minutes, and neither of us has raised Gaza. I wonder why it is that it's Gaza, the issue. I keep thinking about this. Why is it Gaza that's triggered this explosion on campuses? I have no doubt that many of these students are sincere in looking at what they're seeing happening in Gaza, and they feel appalled by it. They're offended by the fact that America is sending weapons to Israel that are being used against civilians in Gaza, and they're protesting about that. But I think there's something else that's happening. I think that there is also a moment where you look at some of these protesters and you've got a feeling of, we, the oppressed, unite together against oppressors.

And whether we feel we're oppressed because of gay rights or Black Lives Matter. There's all of these forces have come together on campus. Because five years ago in the United States, if I went on a Sunday morning political show and I said the word Palestine or Palestinians. It was like there was a bad smell in the room. It was almost a point of principle that America was standing by Israel. I think what we're seeing happening on campuses is a demographic sea change, which is not just to do with a rise, a smallish tickup in the number of Arab-American voters in the country. It's also to do with polls that showed, even before October the seventh, that young Americans under the age of 30 were no longer supporting Israel over Palestinians. In fact, there was a poll last summer, I missed it at the time, but I've digded it out since, that showed that Americans under 35 were more sympathetic to Palestinians than they were to Israelis. If I were sitting in Tel Aviv right now or in Jerusalem, that poll would terrify me because I would look at the demographics of the United States and say, Those young people who today are demonstrating on college campuses, in 10 years time, they're going to be members of Congress.

They're going to be voting with that thing. Now, look, the war may be cleared up. This may blow over as a political issue. But that longer shift of America being so firmly pro-Israel, I think that's changing. I I think it'll change American foreign policy going forward. There is an element of cynicism in this, right? We saw this week Mike Johnson go up to Columbia, and he was on campus talking about the students who he said were intimidating Jewish students, and he called on the President of Columbia to resign for not doing enough to protect Jewish students. I am old enough to remember 2017 when there was that big march in Charlottesville. There was a far-right march and they were walking through the streets of Charlottesville, carrying banners that had swastikas on them and shouting, Jews will not replace us. Where was Mike Johnson then? Where was Donald Trump then? Donald Trump was saying, There are fine people on both sides. So It's possible that a perception that campuses have become too left wing and too liberal and the student bodies have become too woke gets used then by conservative politicians as a political tool, a bit like it did by Nixon in 1968, when he came up with a silent majority, he used that to divide the left.

I think you could see some of that happening, too.

I give you credit for that. I never understood that before, and I think you're making a brilliant connection between the oppressed and the oppressor. But let's talk about who the oppressor is in their minds. That's very wealthy people. They're very wealthy, have decided that they don't like this. You got to follow the money in the United States. One thing that you have to understand about US politics, it is about the money. Universities, it is about the money. You know what? It is about the money in most things in the US. Whether it's Robert Kraft, the owner of the New England Patriots, he says, not giving any more money. It is the CEO of Apollo, the CEO of Blackstone. You could go through the list of people. I'm going to take a pause in my donations because I don't like what's going on. I've been in a trustee position, a board of advisor position at a major college, and I understand the laboratory that they're trying to create in this dish that they're trying to create a freedom, free speech, give people the intellectual bandwidth. But I predict, Patty, that October seventh was a seminal day.

If we go back in history, let's say it's 25 years from now, we look back, we say, Oh, wow, October seventh was a seminal moment. It pushed the envelope. It pushed the pendulum back to something more normal than the allowance of this level of radicalism on a campus because the administrators want that money, Patty, and they're going to change their tune. I'm not going to say they're going to change their tune 100% to please all those big donors, but I predict that the tune at these campuses will change as a result of the extremis that's happening. I don't support it. I think that anti-Semitism is a sign of ignorance. The Jews represent 0.3% of the population of the world, yet they have 20% of the Nobel Prizes. You mentioned one thing. I just want to comment on one last thing, and you said about the Americans. The Americans have been pro-Israel because of... When you think about the leadership in the United States in the post-World War II era, They understood the importance of having a democracy in that region. That's why there was full bipartisan blanket in support. It'll be interesting to see if that continues.

I think that's really on the ballot this coming November, the rules-based order that we've been living by, or does the United States and the people of the United States want something new?

We will do. I am sure a whole another show on America's relationship with Israel and how it's evolving or not evolving or might evolve. On the campuses thing and how campuses have drifted to the left and become more radical, I'm reminded. I had this amazing... I went down to Arizona and spent some time down there a year ago, and I was taken out into the desert by a guy who calls himself a America's Sheriff, and he has five kids. He took me out for some target practice out in the desert. We were talking about... He's a very conservative, has a talk show. He was talking about his kids, and I was saying, What do your kids do? And he said, Well, none of them went to college. I don't want any of my kids to go to college because you know what might happen, Katie? If I send my kids to college, one of them will come back liberal. That was worse than a death in the family. Only one. He had a friend whose kids had gone to college, and they came back liberal. For Conservatives in America, they've long seen universities as this world that costs an insane amount of money.

The sticker fee for Columbia University is $100,000, pretty much. They cost a lot of money. You look at the stats on diversity and how many students at Ivy League universities count themselves as conservative or very conservative. It's something like 5%. There's Very little political diversity of thought. You can see why they've become a target for the right. It'll be interesting to see now, after all of this, whether you're right, there's a pushback. We saw some of that from the Columbia Administrators up in that hearing on Capitol Hill, a swing back to a right. We're not going to be so accommodating of all of the students and everything they want to do and the faculty and their views on free speech. We're going to enforce some sense of law and order. It's going to be really interesting. As this spreads now from New York and those elite universities, and now it's spreading to Texas and California and Chicago and North Carolina, and it spreads around the country, it's going to be fascinating to see how long it lasts and what impact it has on the election. If all of these students, come November, say, Actually, you know what?

We cannot bring ourselves to vote for Joe Biden.

Before we go, Joe Biden wins Michigan?

I think that's the big touch and go one. I think if he doesn't win Michigan, then Donald Trump's chance of getting 270 Electoral College votes are significantly increased.

Okay, so I'll take a stab at it. I think Joe Biden wins Michigan because the alternative for the Arab-American community is actually worse than Joe Biden. I think they show up and they actually vote for him. But we'll see.

Well, that was a pretty serious conversation, not surprising. Antisemitism, college protests. But to finish on a slightly lighter note, and because we like quiz on the rest is politics, and I know they like them on the rest is history, so I hope they're listening to this. A little historical quiz for you, Mr. Scaramucci. When was the first time that American students staged a protest on a college campus?

Oh, wow. All right. I have no idea when the first time was. I'm going to venture a guess that it was, I don't know, the War of 1812. How's that? I don't know.

Not bad. I liked the number.

Good Should I hide from the camera now? Should I wear a bag on my head now?

I think that's C for effort.

Oh, my God. When did Guy Fox blow up the parliament?

November the fifth.

November fifth, 16:00.

Do you want the answer?

I want the answer.

It was 1766, and it was students at your alma mater, Harvard, who staged a walkout. Here is your chance for a bonus point, though. What were they protesting about?

They probably wanted more of food or something like that. I don't know. That was good.

Good come back. They staged a walkout over the quality of the butter that they were being served at school meals.

All right, ding, ding, ding. If I was on Jeopardy, I would get the vote on that one. All right, keep going.

Half the student body was suspended. That's it. Pop quiz over.

All kids care about the booze and food. Okay. Is that the whole quiz?

That's the whole quiz. I think you get a B.

I get a B. All right. Well, I give you an A plus on coming up with the quiz, and I'll give myself a self-grade of a C plus for not knowing the answer.

Okay. Well, we will have another quiz for you next week, and I'm terrified that you might have one for me, so I'll have to try and get a heads up on that. I can't wait. We'll have a lot more next week. Join us on The Rest is Politics next Friday. Anthony, great to be with you.

It's great to be on with you. Next Friday, we hope to see all of you guys. Lots to discuss as we get towards a 2024 presidential election.