I was a girl who felt in many ways, abandoned and rejected. But I do think there came a point where it was like, I have allowed shame to dictate most of my decisions. And why not try faith? I have the honor today of introducing Sarah Jakes Roberts. What a beautiful journey it's been. God gave me something that I want to share with you. That was okay for me. Can you make some noise for Jesus now? Power moves. Just because it had enough power to stop you in your past doesn't mean that it gets to keep that power. When you reclaim it, you can begin moving in the direction of transformation from the inside out. If you have normalized something that was traumatic, then you have become comfortable sleeping with the enemy.

Wow.

I need to know that, you know, what hurt you, what wounded you, what changed the way that you see the world. I want to help you clear your lens.

Is it possible for us to be fully in our power if we don't forgive ourselves for our past?

No, because.

Welcome back, everyone, to the school of greatness. Very excited about our guests. We have the inspiring Sarah Jakes Roberts in the house. So good to see you.

Good to see you again. Thank you for having me back.

Of course. I am so excited because since the last time you were on here, you have just continued to impact millions of lives around the world with your message, your voice, and your life. And so I'm so grateful that you're back. Thank you for taking the time. You've got a new book called power Moves. Ignite your confidence and become a force. And in my mind, you're really empowering people to become a force for good, for sure, in their own corner of the world. And you start the book with one of my favorite quotes. I'm going to just read it really quick from Marianne Williamson, who's been on the show. Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us the most. The quote goes on, but I'm curious, why do you think people are afraid of the power within them?

People are afraid of the power within them because if we really step into the fullness of our power and we can't maintain it, or it's exhausting and stressful, or we disappoint people, it would be so much easier to just set a low bar of expectation. But when we step in the fullness of our power, I have discovered that it's not pressure, performance, or perfection at all. It's simply authenticity. That is the most powerful gift that you can give to the world.

Wow. But how do you navigate your own power personally, within your current corner of the world, your house, your relationships with your kids, but also with an online platform and then a platform of a communities that come to watch you live, speak, and at your events, how do you manage the power of all of it?

Okay, so if you just want that to carry us through the rest of the interview, that's fine. Cause that's gonna take a minute. It really is my authenticity. I am not any different when I am at home versus when I'm speaking. So I speak with that much passion.

At home as on stage, yes, but.

Just not that much volume.

Oh, interesting.

You know, I am sincerely sharing whatever is on my heart in any given moment. And so that's part of the reason why I wrote the book, is because I would get finished speaking, and people were like, that was so powerful. You're such a powerhouse. They kept using this word, power, power, power. And I was like, I don't necessarily go throughout the day thinking, I'm so powerful, I'm such a powerhouse. What's happening in that moment? And the more I started just thinking about who I am in that moment, I realized that those moments when I speak is really just the overflow of the way that I flow in power throughout my week. And so when I am studying for a message, I'm doing it with sincerity. I'm doing it with a real hunger, and then that just overflows into the moment. So I'm not thinking to myself, how can I be powerful? How can I say something powerful? It's simply, how can I be honest about where I am, what I know, what I'm learning that can help someone else. And as simple and straightforward as it is, for some reason, that has turned into this powerhouse example of a person when I am speaking.

And so I wanted to demystify that there really is no secret to what's happening. I'm just doing it with sincerity and authenticity.

When do you feel the most powerless?

When people say things on social media that I can't respond to, that I tell myself I can't respond to.

Oh, why do you tell yourself you can't respond to it?

Because I do not want to give attention to negativity.

You don't want to give it power?

I don't want to give it any more power. And I also recognize that whenever something has bothered me, something that someone has said that's negative, the reason why it bothers me is because it echoes an insecurity. That already exists in me. And so if I am at war with them, instead of untangling my own mess, I miss the opportunity to grow. So if it burns, if it stings, if it gets on my nerves and under my skin, it's because it was already under my skin and they just watered it. And so I try to get in within and say, like, well, what about this really bothered you? Are you afraid that you aren't good enough? Are you afraid that your delivery really is x, y, and z? Why did this bother you? And I tried to extract what's actually happening.

What was the saying maybe 5710 years ago that used to bother you the most that would get under your skin, whether it was someone saying something online or just in person that you learn to overcome or have a better management of. And how did you learn to navigate that insecurity so that it didn't hurt you as much or make you feel as triggered? Like, where should we start at?

Let me see. I do want to say I have a community of people who I call the delegation, and they've shown me a lot of love on social media. So usually if something really gets under my skin, they're fighting the battles for me. That's nice. Probably that I'm only in a position of influence because of who my dad is.

Oh, okay. And I think that that would frustrate.

That would frustrate me, because I have lived most of my life in its shadows. And it, I think, also takes away from the genuine posture required for me to receive the messages that I receive and to do the work to make sure that I'm being a good steward over the influence and responsibility God has given me. So I feel like it can be discrediting when people just chop up everything that I've gone through or everything that has happened for me as a result of just being my dad's daughter.

Interesting. So how did you learn to navigate that? I guess critique or insecurity or frustration.

I think I've accepted that a lot of that is true. Not. Not a lot of it, but a portion of it, sure. I mean, nobody works hard for their children to start from ground zero, and my need to have a certain level of autonomy, and I built this on my own, and no one did it, is rooted in pride. And so I can appreciate that my father has opened a lot of doors for me, that he's paved a lot of this road for me, but he's also not the vehicle keeping me on the road. And at a certain point, it's my work ethic and my passion that has to take over. A parent can only do so much before Grace takes over and work ethic takes over. And I believe that that's where I'm living now.

Yeah. And if you're not continually showing up every single day the way you do, then none of this would happen.

Absolutely.

They can get you in the door.

Maybe, but you've got to be consistent.

For the last decade.

Right.

That's interesting. When did that switch start to happen for you? Where you said, okay, I can accept this critique or criticism or whatever it might be, I can accept it and not let it bother me. Like, was there a day, a moment where you were able to switch off that frustration and say, okay, you're right that he opened the door, but now I'm driving the car?

I think it happened over time. Yeah. It wasn't one particular moment, but probably a series of them coming together where I was, like, I have to find. I have to come to a place where this doesn't shake me anymore. And so, like, what can I build with that will allow me to not be shaken in this area anymore? I don't want it to be pride. I don't want it to be ego. I don't want it to be anger. Like, it's gotta be something that holds the tension of two realities, and this is the reality. I don't want to be resentful that I'm TD Jake's daughter. Like, I don't want to live with this idea. Like, I wish I would have x, y, and z. And so I needed to hold space for those tensions. And I reject anything that requires me to peel apart pieces of my identity. And in order for me to hold all of who I am in one space, I have to accept, like, I am TD Jake's daughter. And there are privileges and opportunities that have been afforded to me as a result of that. I am also someone who has worked very hard, who gives everything that I have to, whatever is in front of me.

And so those two things can exist in the same space. I don't need to reject one and stand on the other.

That's interesting. Do you think sometimes we sabotage, if someone has been given an open door, let's say, do you think sometimes we sabotage ourselves to stepping into it and being as successful and as powerful as we can be? Or do most people just take it and run with it?

Everyone's different. Uh oh, everyone's different.

I think it's almost like this guilt of, like, oh, I've got this opportunity. Like, I should sabotage or take advantage of it.

Like, I think that most people want to do well when given an opportunity, but they don't always trust that they can deliver on the level of the opportunity.

The expectation, maybe. Yeah. Interesting.

And so I do think you have two groups of people, those who, like, try and over deliver to the extent that they burn themselves out and maybe fake it until you make it. And then you have people who don't want to live with that type of pressure at all. And I think ideally, we would be somewhere in between, where we're like, I'm going to move into this opportunity, and I'm going to trust that because this opportunity is in front of me, that this opportunity requires who I am in this moment. So I can't pretend to be someone else, and I can't pretend that opportunities aren't just falling in our laps. You knew some of the right people. You knew some of the right skill set. Like, there is something about who you are that created this opportunity that you're about to step into. Don't worry about what you don't know. You'll learn along the way. Keep your heart open so that you can receive the lessons connected with the opportunity, but also own the fact that this opportunity has crossed my. Crossed my path because I'm on this road that allowed it to happen.

Was there ever a moment where you felt like you were not being yourself or living up to a different expectation or trying to be someone else in order to own this power?

Okay. No, but this. I want to because it sounds so corny and arrogant to say this, but let me tell you why. Because I never really wanted to be a speaker. I never really wanted this influence and stuff. I feel like I made God, like, here. Here's my concession. All right. I will do this. I will go where you tell me to go. I will say whatever you tell me to say. I will bring my best to every opportunity, but please don't let me have to pretend to do it.

Really?

Yeah.

When was this? How long ago?

I will say about nine, eight to nine years ago.

Okay. As you started getting more request to speak.

Sure. I was like, you thought you were resisting it? Yeah. So I started just. I was just sharing my story about being a teen mom and figuring out what grace means and living in this spotlight, making all these mistakes, and then people started asking me to speak outside of just my story, and I was like, that sounds a little bit more like preaching, pastoring. That's not my thing. I can't really do that. But people were like, hey, we're not asking you to be anything other than yourself. Just come and do it. And then I would speak, and people would be like, oh, my gosh. I understand God differently now, or I believe that there's a chance for me to walk out my life and experience love. And with those types of results, it's hard to put my desire to rather just be in the background in front of that. And so I'm like, I will do it for the sake of whoever's on the other side. For someone who may be like me and feel like I don't really fit, it doesn't really make sense. Is there really space for me? I will do it for them, but I can only do it as me.

I'm only effective if I show up as myself. And I have to be free enough to do that. And so even when I get nervous and I'm speaking in new spaces, like, maybe it's a corporation, maybe it's a different type of church, maybe it's a university. And I'll start getting nervous and anxious. Like anyone who's ever heard me speak. You'll hear me pray. I'm like, no fears, no nerves, no anxiety.

You still get anxious and nervous?

Yes.

Really?

Yeah.

Why do you think not this is a good or bad, right or wrong, but why do you think that happens for you?

Well, I am naturally introverted. I internalize. I keep things to myself. It takes a lot for me to, like, speak up and use my voice. And so in those moments, I'm gonna have to think out loud in front of people. I'm gonna have. And then I'm, like, criticizing myself while I'm speaking. I'm like, girl, that didn't make any sense. You said that wrong. You should have studied to make sure you're pronouncing these words properly.

Let me say that publicly.

In my head. I'm thinking all of these things. Like, oh, my gosh, did I check this? There have been moments. There have been moments.

So she'll second guess yourself while you're speaking, for sure.

Cause I would like. I don't mind speaking, but I would like to think about what I'm going to say before I actually say it. But there is a freedom required to step into certain moments where you can't be in your head and be in the moment at the same time. So I have to say, you know what? I'm going to let myself go. And if I say something wrong or I make a mistake, I'm going to be willing to apologize. I'm only human, but I have to be free in order to be a channel, a vessel, and I can't block my own flow by being in my head about it. So I do get nerves and anxiety by, like, lay them. I surrender to whatever the moment requires.

Really?

Yeah.

How? I guess when you're about to go on stage and speak anywhere in a church or a corporate event or something, when do you start to feel nerves? Like an hour before? The day before? Ten minutes before? Like, right when you get on stage, when did they start to.

Okay, here's my process. So I say, yes, I'm going to do it. And then I instantly regret it. Then, right then when I'm like, yes. And they're like, great. I'm like, oh, gosh. So right there in that moment, then I start studying, and I'm like, you know what? I've got something to say. I can really help these people. This is going to bless somebody. This is going to be amazing. And then when it's time for me to actually do it, like, the notes don't make sense. That courage I had is gone. And then that's when I'm like, you need to take a deep breath, center yourself, regroup. You got this.

That's, like, right before you on stage.

Right before.

So you regret it right away.

Absolutely.

Like months before. Right. And then you start to prepare the week before, whatever it might be, and get ready. And then an hour before you.

How about those out the window?

Wow. Yeah, it's interesting. I used to. But it sounds like, you know, the week before, you're in service mode.

Yeah.

You're preparing. You've got your cards, you're thinking about it. You're in service. How can I bless them?

Yeah.

And I used to be so nervous before I got on stage. Even though I was doing it all the time, it would still get anxiety. Like, the morning of. And I called my coach one time, and I was like, why do I still get nervous? I'm, like, getting paid to do this. Well, I'm getting, you know, I'm speaking in big places. And he said, because you're still thinking about yourself.

Oh, my God. Someone told me the same thing.

And he said, you need to start. You need to know that you're gonna forget the thing you wanted to say. You're gonna forget that joke. You're gonna forget the point and just be of service. Even if it's the one human in that audience. Just think about serving them and get out of yourself. And I started doing that more. I still get a little nervous, but it's way better.

Yeah.

Just thinking of, okay, I'm here to serve. I'm here to serve. And it sounds like you do that leading up to it.

Yeah. No, when I get stopped making it about me, and I can only make it about the people in the room, then that helps me a lot.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's beautiful. Did you have any. Obviously, you grew up watching your dad, but did you have any formal training of, like, presenting on stage or speaking, or did you practice it a lot growing up? Or is it more just observing and then learning on the go?

It's learning on the go. It's learning on the go.

You're so talented.

Thank you.

Amazing.

Thank you. Yeah, it's definitely learning on the go. My husband sometimes will be in the corner. He'll be, like, nodding his head at me, like, breathe. But, yeah, I would not say that. I mean, I guess I'm naturally a speaker, but I also don't feel like I'm naturally a speaker. But when I have something to say, I can say it with conviction and certainty. But if you just hand me the microphone and just tell me to start speaking, I need to say a quick prayer before I open my mouth. Cause I don't keep something ready to go.

That's good. So you're very intentional.

Oh, yeah.

Take a moment to be intentional and let something come to you, as opposed to just. I got it all figured out right away for sure. And I think a lot of people, when they don't have the answers or when they asked a question, they'll just respond even if they don't have the answer. But you're willing to take a beat and be still before you speak, which I think is really powerful. Speaking of power is taking a moment, like, risking having an awkward silence and risking people being like, oh, what's happening in you being in that moment? I think it's very powerful.

I really do feel like there's a flow. There's a pocket that you have to be in if you really want to connect with people, and you can't get in that pocket if you are not connected with yourself. And to make it about performance or to make it about ego or, you know, I've got to pull clips or what if I fall? Like, all of these random things that can come, like, you've got to be connected with the message of the moment. And when you find that message, to dare to stand in it, even if it means abandoning your notes, even if it means having to wait for it to make sense to get the language. Right. You've got to trust that pocket. And when you get in that pocket to really live in its fullness is, I think, the greatest gift that you can give someone who is investing their time and their attention in a world that's vying for their time and intention.

Wow.

The least you can do is make sure that what you're saying is pure and life changing.

How do you stay in the pocket of power and not be in performance or ego? When you know people are going to be watching this live? When you're speaking on stage, you know that, you know, part of the things that have gotten you to this place are clips online that go viral that are. That are inspiring to people. How do you let go of all that and just be present in your power?

I just remind myself that I am a person. I'm not a figure. So, like, no matter how many people are following me on social media, no matter how often those clips go viral, at the end of the day, I'm a person. And I try to not let popularity rob me of my humanity.

Wow.

And I gotta really allow myself to be human. So even me praying publicly where everyone can hear, no nerves, no fear, no anxiety like that is to remind my ground myself in the reality that I do have fears, I do have anxiety, and they could hijack this moment. And so I am making sure that I'm coming into a space where I'm grounded enough to just be human. And I like to believe that part of the reason why so many people have gravitated towards my messages and my voice is because I'm one of those people who are like, I am just up here being human. Like, I was speaking at my father's church in June of last year, and as I was speaking, my wig starts slipping. Louis.

No way. What happened?

It was not. It was not secured properly. And I remember speaking, and I'm kind of pacing the floor, and I'm in this zone, I'm in this pocket, and, like, you know, I'm not thinking about anything else. No. This is black church, though. So, like, people are standing, they're talking, their hands are up. And I saw this one woman, and she was like, this.

No way.

I was like, she, like, tugs on her forehead, and I was like, that's an interesting praise. I've never seen that before. I moved to the other side of the room, and then someone else was like, come on. And then I was like, is my wig? And they were like, yes, yes, give it a tug. But I realized that because of the hairstyle it was in, like, it wasn't gonna stay on. And I was like, I'm gonna take it off.

Come on.

I'm gonna take it off. I'm gonna take it off. Cause I still have things to say. I wasn't even, like, fully finished with my message. I still have things to say. And so I take this wig off, and now here I am with a wig cap on.

How many people are here watching?

There's probably 6000 people in the room and 70,000 people watching online. And here I am in my wig cap, continuing to preach this message. And now when I was behind the scenes, I, like, turned into a puddle. Like, what just happened? I am so embarrassed. But in the moment, all that mattered was me continuing what I had to say. But there were so many people who came up to me afterwards, and they were like, oh, my gosh, when you did that, like, I felt freedom. Like, I felt like I could lock in, like, I could focus. Like, it doesn't matter how I show up. All that matters is, like, who I am in any given moment. And so now this thing that I thought is, like, this is gonna go viral. This people. I'm gonna be the laughing stock of whoever and whatever. There are women who are like, oh, my gosh, when you did that, it's like I felt shame get pulled out of my body. It's.

That is power.

Yeah.

When you can step into, like, your most. I guess you're not your most vulnerable moment for you, but still own yourself, own your message, own your voice, and be of service.

Yeah.

That is powerful and beautiful. Wow.

Thanks. Yeah, thank you. It was. When it was over, I was like, wow. But, you know, I just. I just wanted to be real in the moment, and I didn't. I couldn't let something like that keep me from continuing on. And I wasn't trying to be anybody's hero when I did it. I was just trying to make sure that I maintained my responsibility. But I didn't know in doing that that it would have meant something to so many people. And that's why, like, what has blown my mind about power is that we think that, like, I need to take all of these classes, I need to do all of this finessing. I need to do all of these rubbing the shoulders. And everything that people have said was powerful about me just came from authenticity and owning every part of who I am, whether it was the parts that were inspiring or the parts that were cringeworthy, recognizing that they could all live in the same space.

See, for me, this is empowering and inspiring. But I could assume there might be a few people watching or listening saying, well, you know what? It's Sarah Jakes Roberts. She can do whatever she wants. She can. She can, you know, her dress can malfunction. She could, you know, take her wig off. She can whatever, stumble around and do something on stick and fall down and get back up on stage. But she's so powerful, she's so worthy that it doesn't matter. It doesn't affect her.

I hope you. Huh?

So I'm curious. For someone that thinks that they've never been enough, that they don't believe they're enough, where they don't believe they're worthy or deserving of their own power, what are three things that you think maybe from your book, power moves, that they could start to apply today to feel more enough and more powerful.

So I've spent almost as much time feeling like I was powerless than I have flowing in this level of power.

Really?

Yeah. And I will say that part of the reason why so many of us end up feeling powerless is because we have not fully sized up our opponent. So if you have fear, if you have shame, if you have doubt and you have worry, we say these words so casually and so frequently that they have become normalized. The only problem with normalizing our insecurities, our fears, the abandonment and the rejection issues is that they don't really have the same level of power that they need to have in order for us to overcome it. And by that, I mean fear is powerful. Shame is powerful. Our doubt is powerful. It's powerful enough to keep you stuck in relationships. It's powerful enough to keep you alone, to keep you from pursuing your purpose and a business deal, whatever. It's got power, too. And if you're going to have power, you got to have the right target. And instead of trying to target something that's going to make you feel better about those things, we have to face off with the fear. We have to face off with the doubt and with the shame. We've got to look that thing in the eye and say, at the end of the day, I no longer want to be controlled by you any longer.

You've had my name for far too long. You've dictated my destiny for far too long. I want to be better than who fear says I am. I want to be better than what shame says that I am. And in order to direct our power in the right direction, we got to know who our opponent is. And so I would say to anyone who believes that I don't have what it takes or I don't have enough work, that as long as you believe that it is true, what we need to be saying instead is that I need enough power to finally get out of this pattern of thinking that has kept me stuck, that has kept me feeling defeated. And that is a stronger belief. And I believe that anyone who's going to introduce a stronger belief has to be able to say, I am this and that. Like, I may be a teen mom, but I'm still a girl who has dreams. I may have come from a broken home, but I still want to pursue this. I do not want these statistics to end up defining who I am for the rest of my life.

And so just because I'm this doesn't mean that I won't be that either. And so being able to live in this duality, so that fear doesn't convince us that who we were yesterday defines who we're going to be tomorrow.

So I so identifying it first, facing.

It, this thing has real power. It has enough power to keep me from moving, enough power to keep me from growing. Now that I have identified that it actually has power, I want to talk about how I want to extract the power, reclaim the power that fear has, that shame has, and point it in a direction that will allow me to experience wholeness and joy and peace and confidence. Power moves is all about really reclaiming power from fear, from our shame, from our past. And recognizing that power moves, just because it had enough power to stop you in your past doesn't mean that it gets to keep that power. When you reclaim it, you can begin moving in the direction of transformation from the inside out. Not just because I want to get a new job or I want to build something on the outside. When power moves in you, then power can move through you.

Wow. Okay. I love this. So when you identify it and you face it, as opposed to, I guess, running away from it or just allowing it to consume you, what would be the next step? How do we move that power into a direction that supports and serves and empowers us?

I love that you asked this cause then we need to study, how does it show up in my life? So I. In my intimate relationships, I would never speak up. So if someone projected something onto me and said, oh, you know, Sarah doesn't want to do this, or, hey, we're going to do this, and say, I would never use my voice, even if I disagreed, I would just go with the flow. I didn't want to be a disruptor. I didn't want to detract from anyone, even if it was a major decision. And so I recognized that the power of fear was showing up and keeping me from actually using my voice. And so I have identified it now. I've seen how it shows up in my life to go to the end of the day and to reconcile. How did the power of fear, the power of shame, show up? It determined what I put on. It determined whether or not I spoke up in the meeting. It made me shut down. I got angry. Like, how did this show up in my life? And what do I wish I would have done instead? What would have been the power move that I did instead?

What do. And the beautiful thing about this is, when you're reconciling it within yourself, you can say whatever you want to say to yourself. Like, you may not. This may not be what I would have said in the meeting. Like, I wish I'd have told her to shut up and say. Like, that may not be what you say in the meeting, but start practicing what it feels like to use your voice to show up in power, to do the opposite of what fear and anxiety and doubt do the opposite of that, even if you're only doing it within yourself, because you have to exercise using your own power within. Because the next time there's a moment like this, you get to capture and say, wait a minute. This is a moment where I get to choose to have faith or I get to choose to have fear. And because I've already practiced how I want to show up in this space, this may be the moment where I dip my toe in the water and begin to show up, pick up a.

Little bit or set a boundary or say, no, that doesn't work for me right now.

Let me think about that.

Yeah. As opposed to just going along with what you would always. Your past identity would always do, I guess, for sure. So it's almost like, create a rehearsal and practice with yourself first. Once you identify and you're aware of it, I'm hearing you say, like, how would you reflect on something you would have done earlier that day that you wish you had the power to do?

Exactly.

And start practicing it on your own.

So at the end of each chapter, we literally have this, like, marinate activate prayer. So it's like these three sections where it's like, let's marinate on how you would have wanted to do something differently, and then let's activate it. The next time you're doing x, y, and z, try and show up in a way that allows power to move through you and then a prayer to help you in those moments, because it does create. Change is not always easy, even when we know it needs to be implemented.

That's true.

It's just not.

What's the biggest power move you need to make in your life right now? The biggest change that's on your heart or mind or in your world that, you know, you're still marinating. Marinating and need to activate.

And I am still probably really. I have to, you know. Cause we are on a podcast where people hear things. I am needing to be more intentional about owning my voice as an entrepreneur. There are.

Are you not being authentic in certain areas or you're not?

I am. I would. It's hard to say that I'm not being authentic because I don't fully. I don't know that I have fully owned the fact that there are a lot of things that I have, like, stumbled into, and then there are many things that I had to really be strategic about, you know, making specific hiring choices, making sure that our brand has a certain feel, touch and consistency. And I've done that with intention. But because I act like everything just happened by accident, it's keeping me from really understanding how to serve other people and giving these tools away and to really empower my team to, like, own what they know as well.

Wow. So that's what you're working on?

That's what I'm working on.

Okay.

And I know that my fear in working on that, the reason why I haven't is because I don't want to come off as an expert when I am still learning. And so I would rather just be like, I'm still learning than to own what I know thus far and allow that to be used for whoever needs it.

Lead the way. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. But you weren't an expert when you started speaking on stage, either, were you?

I was not.

Did it stop you from putting yourself out there?

It did not.

But sharing a message, you know, authentically and imperfectly, and it served and moved people.

See what you did there? A little sprinkle.

What is the prayer you need to hear right now for yourself?

You're called to this. You're called to do this as you are, to just keep it pure. I think that the hard thing about success, which feels like a very cringy word, is that people begin to impose their strategies onto you. And when those strategies and ideas about who you could be and what you could do and this could happen for you, it can make you hungry for something that you never even had an appetite for. And so protecting my appetite so that I can continue to just focus on what God has put in my heart is my greatest responsibility.

Wow. Yes. It's interesting. I just wrote down kind of what you were sharing there. I put calling on top and then success versus service.

Yeah.

And, you know, at satellite, you started sharing your story to be of service to people that were asking, hey, share your story.

Yeah.

And you realize, oh, this was helping individuals, you know, a handful of people, and then hundreds and thousands and millions. And you gained success as well through that process of just sharing your story and. And being of service. And then it sounds like it's moved you into a calling. That's what it's sounding like. Right. But how do we learn how to know when we're going after success versus service and how do we know? Well, this is an amazing opportunity, and here's this cool thing I could do with this person and this experience, and here's a lot of money over here in this project and this deal. How do we know when we're taking on success and it is truly service versus success by itself?

I think the line is so thin that the only way you learn it is by trial and error.

Wow. Yeah.

Unfortunately. But I think some of the qualifying questions I ask myself is, what's driving your desire to do this? And being real enough to know when it's ego, being real enough to know when it's wanting to seek approval from certain industries or certain people versus even with this book launch like, you've written a book before, so everybody's like, you got to hit the list. You got to hit the list. You need extra numbers to hit the list. Hit the list, hit the list. But, like, when I wrote this book, I wasn't thinking about, how do I write a New York Times bestselling book? I wrote this book because I was completely consumed with this idea of what it means to have power and who holds it and who doesn't. And why do we believe that it's only reserved for a few? Like, I wanted to explore this idea of power, and I did that, which means that this book has already been successful in the way that it was meant to be successful for me. And so for me to get to this point and then for it to become about, okay, but if you don't hit the list, it wasn't successful, is robbing me of the obedience that started the book in the first place.

And so I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that people hear about the message. But I'm not going to put the success of the book on whether or not it makes it into a list.

How does someone learn how to do that, though, when there's so much pressure from, you know, their survival, making money, their approval, the pressures of a publisher potentially telling you, you need to do this, or your community letting people down? How does someone let go of the need for something to be successful and be an obedient servant to their calling and message instead in a material world, when we got to survive and pay.

People and numbers matter and all of that matters? I think defining what success is for yourself first, because if you don't have a definition of what success is, that's part of even in the book. Like, I have to define what power is for me as a person, because if I do not have my own definition, I will be stretching and reaching for someone else's definition of power. And so I've got to know what it is for myself. And then I also need to know what is everyone else's definition of success or power in my world, whether it is what it like, my husband and I, perfect example. My definition of what it meant to be a good wife was like, dinner's on the table at six. You know, the house is completely clean. Like, you wake up and the house is clean, you make sure that before you go to bed, you look a certain way. Like, I had all of these different ideas of what it meant to be a good wife. I never stopped to ask the person I'm actually marrying, like, what is your definition of a good wife? Not society's, not what I've seen on sitcoms.

What does it mean to be Ta Rae's wife? Because I wanna be successful and powerful at being your wife.

Wow. What did he say?

He doesn't care about dinner. Be on the table at six. He's not nearly as obsessed with cleaning. He wants honesty, he wants communication, he wants loyalty, he wants joy, he wants peace. I would be up making sure the room was clean before we went to bed so that, like, if you wake up, the room is still clean. And he's like, I want you to get in the bed so I can put my head in your lap.

Wow.

And even for someone who internalizes, for my husband to value communication and honesty, sometimes I'll have like a whole dialog going in within me and he has no idea what's happening and he wants me to speak up. So I know that part of what it means to be a powerful wife to him is me being able to verbalize what I'm thinking and what's going on in my world. And so we are so consumed by living up to other people's expectations and other people's definition that we're robbing the people who we are in the closest proximity to of us being powerful in the roles that we play for them.

Wow.

And so when you come up with your own definition of power as it relates to your specific roles, like, what is power as the founder, what is power as a spouse, what is power as an adult child? What's power as a parent specific to the people who you are called to serve? You're able to incubate what really matters and push away that which would try to make you perform into someone you're.

Not speaking of power moves. Someone could look at this and think like, is this a relationship book about power moves and relationships? You're speaking about your husband.

Yeah.

It seems to me like a lot of people are struggling in relationships. Power dynamics where there's just fights happening all the time, in intimate relationships where people are dating or married. Why do you think people struggle so much to have peaceful power in an intimate relationship in today?

Probably fear of control.

Really?

Yeah, I would. I think so. Fear of not even necessarily controlling another person, but controlling mitigating opportunities for hurt.

Like fear of being out of control.

You mean fear of being out of control. So the more that I can control myself or control them, try and control the way that this relationship works, the better off I'll be. So I have a lot of. I feel safe? Yeah, I think, yeah, at the end of the day, I think people are searching for safety and safety and control often feel like they go hand in hand.

Can you feel safe if you're controlling someone else?

No, I don't think so.

So how does someone feel safe in a relationship with, you know, someone else that they're sharing their heart with, they're being vulnerable and open with. How can they feel safe if someone else has the ability to hurt them?

If you do not feel safe by yourself and on your own, it's going to be difficult for you to feel safe in the context of a relationship, because at the end of the day, you have to get to a place of safety for yourself, emotional safety, spiritual safety. Like, you have to know where is your home plate? And if you don't know your home plate and you just meet someone while you're out in the field running bases, then nobody knows where home is.

Wow.

So I have to know where my home plate is. What makes me feel safe is consistency, stability, rest makes me feel like I'm not an out being out on the town kind of person. Like, I like to be at home. It makes me feel safe. And so I know how to get myself to a space of safety. I know how to communicate to my husband because I know what is safe for me, what I need from him as well. And he knows what safety looks like for him as well. But when you don't know what it looks like, and there are times even in a marriage where you're just on autopilot, things are just going crazy, and now you're trying to, like, control everyone else's movement. I think you have to know I am out of my safety. And because I am out of my safety, I am now in survival mode. And because I am in survival mode, I have a different set of expectations than when I'm functioning from a place of safety. When I'm in survival mode, if you have a bad day, I think you're about to break up with me.

Are you rejecting me? Does something go wrong? Because I don't feel safe by myself. But if we can get to a place of safety for ourselves, we can invite other people into the intimacy of our safety. We can visit the intimacy of their safety, and we can also give one each other space when that other person needs to get back to their place of safety.

I know a lot of women reach out to you and ask you questions about relationships based on your experience or interpretation of your community. Where do you feel like women are at today in relationships? Do you feel like, what's the percentage of women do you feel like are safe emotionally in the relationships they're in? And is it about the men they're with or the relationship they're in? Or is it more about they haven't learned the skills of emotional safety or regulation yet?

I saw a very encouraging article that the divorce rates are actually going down because people have done a lot of work in therapy and understanding triggers and communicating. So marriage is becoming more safe than it once was. But I think that we also have a generation of women who feel like they saw a previous generation of women lose theirselves in relationship, lose their voice, lose their ability to explore their creativity and their power to become subservient to whoever their partner was. And I think there's a legitimate fear in that for women who feel like, hey, I do want to create a life with someone. I do want to experience love, but I also want to be the fullness of who I am. And I'm not sure that the two can coexist, and they are so committed to preserving who they are that they don't want to take a chance on relationships. And I think that that is a fair perspective based off of what we can see. But I do think that when we are in relationships with our partnership, that we have to be willing to make space for the reality that just because what we saw didn't seem healthy, it doesn't mean that we can't create something healthy.

Right.

And in wanting to create something healthy, you have to make sure that you and whoever you're going to build with want the same things that you're willing to create your own definition of what love and marriage and partnership looks like. And that whatever that definition is, that you will commit to protecting your definition, because it may not be the world's definition, it may not be your parents definition or the church's definition or whatever, but you got to be willing to protect your definition so that you can have a bond that lasts throughout time. My husband and I, like, there are certain things we want for our family. There are certain things we want for our marriage. And we're often in worlds and cultures that don't always support that, really. But we know what it is. Mm hmm.

Wow.

Yeah.

But, I mean, as long as you guys are coming together in alignment on it, that's all that matters for sure.

Cause it's gonna take the strength of both of us to maintain the marriage that we want. It can't just be a one sided strength.

What would you say? Are, you know, you've been married, what, ten years now? Ten years now. And I was asking you some marriage advice before.

Yeah.

Cause you're going, I'm engaged, and, you know, be getting married sometime soon. Exactly.

Yes.

If someone was looking to get engaged or married to their partner that they're with right now, what would you say are three mandatory questions they should ask their partner before marriage to make sure that their answers are in alignment. And if they're not, then you should probably reconsider being in the relationship.

Well, my husband and I have a shared expression of faith, so I think making sure that you have a shared expression of faith, not even just a shared faith, but what does this expression look like for you? How does it show up in your world? Because everybody who believes in God isn't trying to live a life of light, love, and goodness and conviction and humility, and so making sure you have a shared expression.

So it's not just the same beliefs, it's the same shared expression of the belief. That's interesting. Cause he could be like, yeah, I believe in God, but I'm an angry person.

Right, right.

I'm just trying to tear the world down.

Exactly. How does your faith show up in your actions?

Interesting. Okay.

Yeah. I will say that this isn't a question that you would have a shared answer to, but I think it's a question worth asking the person. And that is, what is the most traumatic experience you've had in your life, and how does the residue of that experience show up in your presence?

Let's go. That's big. What?

Yeah.

Wow. Okay, so, one more time. Say it again.

What is the most traumatic experience of your life, and how does the residue of that experience show up in your present?

That is so powerful, because if people have not healed the wounds of the past and they drag them into the present, they'll keep happening in the future, and it's gonna affect the person you're with.

And we're all a little crazy. And if you have normalized something that was traumatic, then you have become comfortable sleeping with the enemy.

Wow.

I need to know that, you know, what hurt you, what wounded you, what changed the world the way that you see the world? Because I want to help you clear your lens. I'm not asking you to not have the lens. I just want you to understand how it shows up in who you are right now. And what do I need to do in order to help you see beyond what happened to you?

Yeah, that's interesting. Cause if someone's replying and saying, well, I didn't really have anything, and they're just dismissing it. Or if it is a big thing, but they're not willing to address it, it's like it's gonna impact you. The person you're with, for sure. They might be avoidant or reactive or explosive or aggressive. You don't know. Yeah, that's a good one. Great question.

And I would say the last one is, what brings you joy?

Mm. Why that one?

This world is tough. And I want to know the secret to putting a smile on your face when the world's trying to wipe it off.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

Do you think the world is in more pain now than when you were a teenager?

I do not know. It feels like it. And there are plenty of reasons why I think it feels like that. But I also think social media has put it more in our face than ever.

We didn't see this stuff.

We didn't see it.

We would see it. Maybe newspapers or.

But there were still wars. I mean, people were still going through a lot of pain. There were ups and downs in the economy, and so I want to believe that there was, you know, the same or similar amount of pain.

We just didn't see it.

Yeah, but it does feel very magnified.

It does. What is the, you know, you incorporate prayer in your life a lot. What is the prayer that you think the world needs to hear right now?

I think that every person has to be willing to ask themselves, God, what is it that I need to see, and who is it that I need to be to address what I see? I think it's too big of a thing to ask, what is the prayer that the world needs? But if I can get people to understand that who you are in your world matters is significant, that you are a power player in your circle of influence, then they can take ownership over their corner of the world, and it may just be the four walls of their home. Yeah, it doesn't have to. I want to believe that there's something in me that will address every single problem in the world. I want to believe that all I have is this story, this platform, this gift to take the Bible and make it relatable. And it doesn't always feel like enough. It doesn't, but I release it anyway. And I believe that if we can all combine in releasing whatever we have anyway, that maybe we can make a difference in one person for one day or for a lifetime. But I think we have to be willing to take ownership because we've got devastation.

And then we have people who are apathetic in many ways because they're so overwhelmed and what they can't do to solve what they see. But if we can engage in what we can control, I believe that we can see a difference. I have to believe that.

I can't remember if this is like a quote or just an analogy, but. And I can't remember who said this, but something like, if you want to go change the world, start with your own house, start with your own family. I can't remember who said that, but it seems like so many people are trying to fix problems outside of their own life. Like, they're shouting about this cause and this problem and this thing in the world that's unjust and this war and this thing, you know, changing these policies. And I get it. I understand that. But it also seems like they're just not happy with their own life, and they probably have challenges at home that they could be taken care of first. Why do you think so many people try to fix outside problems as opposed to focus on how they can improve their health, their relationships, their past, their traumas, their family situation. Why do you think we, as society try to fix outside versus first fixing inside?

I do think that there are some people who are literally called to focus on what's happening outside of maybe their immediate circle of influence. Like that immediate circle of influence may not be their target audience.

Sure, sure.

Right. But I also think that there are some people, but if they have broken.

Relationships and they're, you know, sick or they're not taking care of that first, that's, I guess, what's wrong.

I mean, because it's just so much easier to sweep around someone else's front porch. It just is. I mean, we all know people who would, like, give the best advice that they don't take. You know what I mean? It doesn't mean that the advice itself is broken, but it is just really hard to do the heavy lifting for yourself. Most of the people who are like, this strong friend for other people are showing up for them, but they need strength themselves because there is a vulnerability that comes when it's your life on the line, your relationship on the life, where the outcomes directly impact you. And so it can be very liberating to say, I'm going to tell you what to do, and then I will figure out my stuff later, or not at all. But I do think that you can only effectively impart what you know to be true. Everything else is guesswork. But I can tell you that I found out power moves because I saw power on the platform and I saw power in the car line, and I saw power when I was creating a business plan. Like, I know this for myself, and when you know something for yourself, you're able to have a more convincing argument for other people.

But it just requires a lot of vulnerability that many people aren't willing to step into.

Wow. I mean, did you say you had two kids as a teenager?

Well, I had one son at 14, and then I had my second child at 21.

21, okay, but you're a teen mom.

Yeah.

And there's, you know, that's not as common today, I guess, in America, right. As maybe it was in the past. But it's still. It's very rare. And it must be very challenging to be a 14, 1516 year old mother in american society, I'm assuming. How did you not let that define you or hold you back in any way or block you from your power and your ability to transform as a human being in the ways that you have? How did you not let that be your identity and keep you in some box.

I spent a long time thinking that that would be my identity. Yeah. I mean, because unlike other things that people go through, like, you got a baby on your hip, like, if you have recovered from addiction, like, you can recover and never look like what you went through, like, there are all of these different things that can happen to us that no one knows about. But I've got a baby on my hip and a young face. I look like a teenager who had a baby. And I figured, if I am going to beat this, then I'm going to just add on some decorations to this title, right? I'll get a degree. I'll get the house, I'll do the marriage. And as long as I was concerned that that would define me for the rest of my life, I was allowing it to define the choices that I made in life. And when I got to a point, I was probably 23, when I was still just, like, even old enough at that point to have a child, I was still thinking that it would define me. And I just got to a point where I'm like, you know what?

I have to accept this, that this is a part of my identity, this is a part of my lived experience, and yet I'm also not going to run from it for the rest of my life. And when I stopped running from it for the rest of my life and finally embraced it, I was able to see outside of that one thing. It was so hard for me to see outside of the fact that I got pregnant as a teenager. It just felt like, how could you be silly? How could you let this happen? And your TD Jake's daughter. This is so embarrassing. And I couldn't see past that.

Was there a lot of shame that you were feeling? Or for sure, really, what was the main emotion? Was it shame or was it guilt? Shame.

Shame. Also, I had my son at the age where purity culture was really prevalent in the faith community. And so everything that we were sending messages to young girls about was about not having sex before marriage. If you do, no one's gonna want you like these. You know, put on a white gown and say that you're gonna be married to Jesus until you find your partner. And so, you know, and I have a sister who's just almost a year older than me. It's like eleven months in a few days. And so I would be sitting at her, like, purity class with my baby in the back.

No way. Oh, my goodness.

Okay, so shame. Definitely shame. Like, you're not one of the good girls, you're not the one who did it that way. And it was all that I could see.

Really?

Yeah.

It's really hard to be powerful when you feel shame, right?

Oh, yeah.

When were you able to let go of shame and step into power?

Then I really feel like it was a gradual release. And I kept thinking that I would finally have one accomplishment that would make me feel better about it, and it just wasn't enough. Nothing could fix it. Nothing could do it. No relationship, no accolade. It was nothing. No degrees, nothing. It was never enough. And so I finally realized, like, I'm not going to be able to just perform my way out of this.

Wow.

I'm going to have to really understand the messages that I have received and choose whether or not I agree with these messages. So, especially, you know, like, I didn't really understand faith fully at that age, but I do think there came a point where it was like, I have allowed shame to dictate most of my decisions, and why not try faith? Like, this idea of you're fearfully and wonderfully made, and no matter what you've gone through, God still loves you? Like, it was very much so. An attempt. I didn't go from shame into this. I confidently believe everything, everything God says about creation belongs to me. Like, it was an attempt. It's like, I've tried shame, I've tried depression.

It's not working.

I've tried promise. Like, I've tried all of these different things. Let me just try to believe that I could be better than my past choices. Let me try to believe that his strength is made perfect in my weakness. Let me try to believe that I can have a fresh start. And if I were to try and believe this, what choices would I make if I thought it were true and I started making those choices and trusting those decisions, and I started recognizing that as I moved in the direction of my faith with works, that I was coming back to life again.

So, you know, we're talking about, again, power moves and how to really build this confidence within yourself. It sounds like you didn't have confidence for many years.

Oh, no.

You had a lot of shame, insecurity, frustration, depression, anxiety, I'm assuming all these different disempowering emotions that kept you feeling weak, I guess, right? Not powerful. You decided to make a decision. Okay, let me try this other way of being, living, experiencing, believing, and start backing it with choices that support that identity. Right. How long did it take for you then to start fully owning the new identity? Because it's not an overnight, like, okay, now I'm this confident person, and I'm gonna believe this and own it and act this way. It sounds like it took some time. When did you feel like, oh, I am no longer living in shame. I'm living in acceptance and forgiveness of myself and appreciation of self, of what I've been through. And I'm stepping in this new identity that I now own fully.

So when I started getting evidence that making these decisions that were based and rooted in faith were actually bringing out a better version of myself, I started releasing that grasp on shade.

Really?

Yeah. I started believing that I could trust myself again, that if I took a moment and really stilled myself, that I could see people and things for what they really were. And so I started getting evidence. So, at the end of the day, shame was so powerful because it had evidence.

Yes.

And sometimes when we're moving from shame into faith, faith doesn't have evidence yet. And because faith doesn't have evidence, it's so much easier to fall back into whatever that negative experience was because you're familiar with it. I know it. Yeah. But the moment that faith begins to have evidence, it's easy. Easier to continue to move in a direction of faith. So that happened gradually, but it was happening. But what was overnight, as it relates to me forgiving myself, was the moment that I realized that I was looking at my teen pregnancy through a lens of judgment instead of compassion. And I was able to start seeing it through compassion when I realized that I wasn't just a girl who got pregnant. I was a girl who felt, in many ways, abandoned and rejected and who was searching for a place to fit. And when I saw myself in that moment before I made the choice, the choice made more sense to me.

Yes.

And a lot of times, we're judging ourselves for the outcome of our choices and not looking at who we were in that moment. If we look at our choices in context with the families we grew up in and the cities we grew up.

In, traumas we had, or whatever it.

Might be, the decision makes sense in context. But because we are just so disappointed by the outcome, we don't look at the context.

Right. And I guess maybe you had a. That's kind of an aha for me, because I used to be, I didn't forgive myself for a long time just for, like, the actions I did. Just stupid stuff as a kid. Right. It's like. And the pain I caused and just, like, hurt to my family, myself, all these different things just felt so shameful for a long time. But for whatever reason, you just woke something up in me where it's like, well, I had a different identity back then and I was making choices based on that belief of an identity to myself. And when we can have compassion, when I'm hearing you say towards our younger self and the identity and the beliefs we had, then we can see, okay, those choices are natural. We're going to be making those choices based on that. So now we have the awareness and we can start to marinate and reflect on that identity and those behaviors and those actions and beliefs, and we can start to activate new beliefs and new identities. And over time, hopefully, we make the choices consistently to own that new identity. It sounds like, for sure, wow, how is it possible for us to be fully in our power if we don't forgive ourselves for our past?

No, because you have to know what's in you. And if you have this barricade up like I did, where it's like, well, that version of me doesn't exist anymore. Look at me, I'm shiny, I'm brand new, then I cannot really plan how to protect myself or to have boundaries or to know where my weak spots are because I haven't yet done the work of recognizing how I end up making poor choices. So one of the chapters I'm most proud of in this book is called know your harm. Because if we go throughout life thinking that I'm going to get to this stage of life where I am no longer making mistakes, where I'm miss perfect and no one can say anything to me, then we're going to miss out on the reality that, like, you are going to do harmful things, you're going to have long days, you may say something hurtful, you may be dismissive, you may be disrespectful, depending on what's happening in your world. And you have to know how you show up in the world and how it can be harmful depending on who you're talking to or what their experience of you may be.

And so I don't know that you can really own your power without owning how you've harmed yourself, how you can harm others, because you have to be power with no accountability is reckless. You have to be accountable to the ways that you're going to fail, the ways that you're going to mess up so that you can apologize and own them. That is power. Seeking forgiveness, being able to forgive, it's not about doing everything well, it really is about owning every dimension of who you are.

How often do you forgive yourself today?

Oh, all the time.

Really?

Yeah.

What do you need to forgive yourself for?

Sometimes talking negatively about myself.

Just internally or you mean internally?

Sometimes internally. Sometimes I have to forgive myself for not showing up in the highest version of who I am in conversation with other people. I have to ask my children for forgiveness.

Really?

Yeah. Like, hey, I'm sorry, I think you were trying to share something special with me and I got upset, or I got so worried and afraid that I started projecting my own pain or trauma onto you. I have to apologize to my husband. Sometimes I get so caught up in work and so blinded by whatever task is in front of me that I'm not attentive to, like, just looking him in his eye and being like, how are you for real? You know, and not just going through my life like two ships passing in the night. And I apologize or have to seek that forgiveness because at the end of the day, I have a core value that I want to live by as it relates to all of these different hats that I wear.

Wow.

And when I don't live up to those core values, it's not just an assault on the person who has had that experience, it's an assault on the core value that I want to embody for myself.

Right.

And so I have to forgive myself so that I am postured to actually give an apology that is heartfelt.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

And what is your thoughts on vulnerability within power?

Unfortunately, you can't have one without the effect. I'm sorry.

Tell me more. You can't just be powerful without being vulnerable.

You gotta be. That is. That is power. Vulnerability is power.

A lot of people think, you know, power is about being strength and confidence and having it all put together and being perfect. But I'm hearing you say vulnerability is power.

It is power. Anyone who we feel is powerful are in a position of extreme vulnerability in order for that power to flow through them.

Interesting.

They're trying new ideas. They're exposing themselves to the world like they're.

They're risking.

They're risking. They are risking and often risks that they don't necessarily have to take. But because they are committed to being positioned in this space of vulnerability and exploration, they're taking chances that maybe other people wouldn't take. And you see power, but they may see weakness, you see power, but they may see fear. And a lot of times what I am learning in speaking with people and having the honor of just being in relationship with people who I think most of the world would deem powerful is that at the end of the day, they really are just human people doing the best they can with what they have been given and hoping that it translates to the people who are called to them.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

What do you think are the fears? You don't have to call people out, but what are the fears of some of the most influential and powerful people that you advise, connect with, interact with? What are the biggest fears that powerful people have?

Being misunderstood. Trying something new and different than the way people have come to know them. Relevancy.

Staying relevant.

Mm hmm. Staying relevant.

And why are people afraid of not being relevant?

Well, I think because we think that power is popularity, and that's why you gotta have your own definition. And I'm kind of like, I am not going to be relevant forever. No one is. But with this window that I have been given, I want to give all of what God has given me to this moment so that I don't have regret when the season is over. And so I am not clinging for relevancy or popularity. I'm maximizing every opportunity that has come my way and also prepared that at any given moment, it's going to be a different person, a different style, a different way of showing up in the world that someone else carries that isn't mine. And then my power isn't gone. It has just moved into a space of mentorship or maybe into a different industry. So as much as it is about making a power move, it's also recognizing that power moves. So as a parent, I don't think there's any better example. Like, what makes you powerful to a newborn parent, a newborn baby is totally different than what makes you powerful as a mother with an adult child. Like, I'm not burping my 21 year old, I'm not staying up all night with him, but I am trying to listen to him and be attentive to what he needs.

My power as a parent has moved. And as long as the world is moving, as long as new ideas are emerging and new generations are taking their place, we have to recognize that power is going to move. And I can try and swim upstream when life is carrying me into a different path, or I can trust that there is power that awaits me in the new path that I'm set upon.

Wow. So you mentioned 21 year old son. So I'm assuming you're mid thirties then. What if you could do an experiment with me for a moment and go ten years in the future to your ten year older self, who has lived this season of purpose that is in front of you right now and assuming it'll go ten and many more years beyond that. But this season of ten years, the next decade, what is the three pieces of advice that your future self, with all the wisdom and experience and lessons you're going to gain over the next ten years? What do you think she would tell you today to be prepared for with this next decade?

I hope that she would tell me to be present in every moment, to plan like it's going to last forever, and to hang on to the relationships that matter the most to me, to really prioritize them and keep them in the forefront of what I do.

What would she say is the thing you need to look out for the most?

Look out for other people's agendas.

Really?

Mm hmm. Yeah.

How do you know when someone's agenda is in alignment with yours? Or there's a win win, you know, exchange or a good intention for both parties versus someone making it seem like is a good intention for you, but really they want something from you? What? How can you discern that?

I think it's natural that when you're in relationship with people, people are going to want something in exchange, but making sure that what they want doesn't bankrupt you in the process. So if I give you what you want, because I'm going to get something back from you, too, right? There's an exchange here. I just have to make sure that it doesn't bankrupt me in the process. And I also have to understand what is a win for you. And can I trust I'll give. We have these events, and whenever you have groups of people, there's an opportunity for sponsorship. We got flooded with so many people who wanted to be a part of sponsoring our events, and we had to qualify. As in turning down money. We had to qualify with a budget that needed to be met. Yeah, we had to qualify. Okay, this is a great deal financially, but at the end of the day, I'm going to be telling them to buy bottles of alcohol. You know what I mean? Like, I have to be willing to stand by where I am leading them. And I have to say no. Even though at the end of the day it could have been helpful for my bottom line.

I am responsible for these souls, these people that have been placed under my influence, and I have to make sure that whatever I am giving to them is actually helping them. So all of the sponsors that we had at our last event, like, we gave away two full ride scholarships, we gave away two program certificates. We were giving away money and financial advising because, yes, you may come and you may be able to sponsor this event, but I also want to make sure that people are leaving with like things that they can actually use for themselves and that they have tools that are helping them to evolve practically. And so, I mean, we gave away trips. Like, we're constantly thinking about the ways that we can make sure this is relevant to the people who are trusting us with their time. And there are most things are not. So being intentional about making sure that when they do align, that we maximize those partnerships.

That's beautiful. Yeah. We've, you know, I've had this show for eleven years now.

Yeah.

And I've never been drunk. I've never done drugs or been drunk. And I've been offered many big deals with like alcohol sponsors.

Yeah.

Nothing against it if people want to drink, but it's just not something that I want to promote.

Right.

So I turned down a lot of money for things that just don't make sense for me personally. So I understand that. I think it's really cool. Power moves ignite your confidence and become a force by Sarah Jakes Roberts I want you guys all to get a copy. If you want to get clear on your vision for your life and your purpose for this season of your life and you want to overcome the challenges, the shame, the insecurity that's held you back, make sure you get this because it's going to give you a lot of powerful wisdom and actual advice from someone who's lived in shame and insecurity and depression for a period of life and who has overcome that. So I think it's really cool that you're sharing power moves with the world, and I want the world to get it. They can go on Amazon or anywhere. Books are sold. Also, Sarah jakesroberts.com and you've got an amazing tour as well.

Yeah.

Is it happening right now or it's happening later in this year? How can we show up to it? How can we get tickets?

It's happening right now. But so we are going to. Oh, goodness. Houston, Chicago, Brooklyn, the DMV, Atlanta and Los Angeles. But we're also going to have an online event because we recognize we won't be able to go to every city that we want to go to. So all of the details are on sarahjakesrobbers.com for those who can't be in those cities. I think some of the cities are at capacity, but the other ones are, there's some openings there, but obviously virtual. You can have a party. A watch party.

Watch party. Let's go, baby. So check it out. Sarahjsrobbers.com power moves. I got a couple final questions for you before I ask them. Is there anything else we can do to serve you today?

No. I think that at the end of the day, what you guys are doing with school of greatness and allowing people non traditional forms of education and empowerments, literally, you being responsible for your corner of the world. So thank you. It takes someone who really understands that it takes all of us, not just one of us, to create space and platform for other people to come through and serve as many people as possible.

I appreciate that you. Well, hopefully we'll get you back on many more times because I love connecting with you and meeting your man. I want to hang out with him more, too. I want to acknowledge you, Sarah, before I ask the final two questions for your constant evolution and journey as a woman, as a leader, as a human being doing your part to serve humanity as well. And I just think it's cool that you keep creating value for people and you keep showing up using your voice, even though you're introverted and what you say is shy. I don't know about that, but, you know, shy, introverted, and want to stay home more. You've got a gift, and I'm grateful that you're cultivating it and sharing it with so many people. So I appreciate that about you. I asked you this question last time. I'm curious if it's changed. It's called the three truths. So, imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want to live in this world. But eventually, it's the last day, and you get to continue to create and experience life the way you want to experience it.

And all your dreams come true. But on the last day, you have to take all of your work and your content with you to the next place. So, we don't have access to your books, your videos, your sermons, your speeches, anything anymore. It's gone hypothetical. But you get to leave behind three lessons, you know, in your hundreds at this point, right? So it's your last day, and I call it three truths. What would be those three truths for you?

Number one, find a way to love every version of who you have been. Number two, treasure every opportunity day to engage with people who you encounter. And number three, never become someone's savior when you can lead them to one.

All right. That's powerful. It's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard that last one.

Yes. I'm saved.

It's a powerful, powerful truth. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Trusting your authenticity? Trusting. I want to say trusting your authenticity. But I also want to be clear that authenticity is not the same as consistency. Which means that you're going to have to do the work of asking yourself, is this still authentic to me? Because sometimes we are loyal to an authentic version of who we used to be, and you can't trust that. But if you do the work of constantly asking what is authentic to me today and trusting that that makes sense, then you can present that person in the relationships that matter and create from that well and love from that well and introduce everyone you know into that version of who you are.

So, authenticity sir, thank you so much. Appreciate you being here.

Glad to be here.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter, and now it's time to go out there and do something great.