I've sat across people who've done horrible things, and you think you're going to have this monster in front of you. They're nothing special.

Really?

When you look at these folks, who do they typically target? Women and children. If you're such an apex predator, why are you picking on these populations? Interesting. Because they're easier to take down. I'm not picking somebody of equal capacity to me because I'm a coward. Evy Pampouris. Is a security expert and former secret service agent.

Who protected presidents and also worked as an interrogator.

Agent Evy Pampouris. No two people lie the same. The body leaks information. You shut up, you sit back, you ask questions, you let people talk. I get a good feel of you, and then I watch what you do with your body. I watch the shifts. Your intuition or your instincts, that's a legitimate thing. You can call it whatever you want. I'm a very instrumental, rational thinking person, but at the same time, I feel people, and if it feels off, I'll either steer away from you, or if I have to work with you, I'm going to be careful. You want to make people feel connected to you. Now, it's not about making people like us. But it's about creating an environment in which people feel like they want to be around you. My goal is to build a relationship with you. So how can I do that?

My name is Louis Howes. Thanks so much for being here. I want to remind you about the Summit of Greatness, our annual conference happening this September in Los Angeles. With David Goggins, Dr. Joe Dispenza, and many more incredible speakers and performers, there will be so many live attendees there that you you can meet with, you can network with, and you can help transform your life. I can't wait to see you at the Summit of Greatness here in Los Angeles.

Hey, Louis Howes here. I'm so glad that you're here. We have a powerful episode with Evy Pompouris, a former Secret Service agent, and this one's all about how to protect your energy, how to claim your power back, and creating boundaries within your life so people don't take advantage of you. I'm so excited about this. It's your first time here. Make sure to subscribe to the channel and leave comment of your biggest takeaway below in the comments. Also, we have another episode with Evy that came out with over a million views. Check out that one after this interview. We'll have it linked in the description. You said 1 in 25 people have sociopathic tendencies or are sociopaths?

Look, you can have that tendency and not be a serial killer. Okay, yeah. You can be antisocial disorder or even narcissistic disorder. You can have Look, antisocial disorder or narcissistic disorder, narcissistic disorder. Again, I don't have my DSM 5 in front of me, but those are the two disorders that lack empathy. The problem with those is they're capable of causing you harm and not feeling bad. That's the issue. Lack of empathy here is the problem. Most people, when they cause you harm, afterward, they'll feel bad, whether it's physical harm or if they gossip about you.

They'll apologize, how they feel remorse.

Yes. Or maybe they won't apologize, but will feel bad about it. With these disorders, they lack empathy. It means, I don't feel bad. That's where the red flag is because I can cause you harm on a consistent basis and not feel bad.

It doesn't mean you're going to kill someone.

No, it does not. It doesn't. That's what you're saying. If anybody has this, it's okay. You're not a killer. No. But there's a degree there. Look, there's other things that get laced into people who could become serial killers. You know It's interesting. When they do these profiles, you always label these serial killers or these people that do these things as these horrible predators and monsters, and we elevate them to such a degree. I've sat across people who've done horrible things, and you think you're going to have this monster in front of you. It's just a normal person. They're nothing special. Really? No, they've been beat up. They've been let down. Some of them are super meek. Really? Yes. They look... They're nice, they're They're not this thing that you label.

They'll connect with you. They'll look in your eyes.

They'll respond to you. They'll do that. But they're also not these apex predators that we make them out to be. When you look at these folks, who do they typically target? Who are their victims?

Vulnerable women.

Yes. Women and children. Actually, the number one population that gets victimized the most are children because they're the most helpless, then women, then elderly. Wow. So if you're such an apex predator, why are you picking on these populations because they're easier to take down.

Less conflict.

Less conflict. It's easier for me to take you. I'm not picking somebody of equal capacity to me because I'm a coward. That's true. That's how you know.

What's the common theme from all the different serial killers you've interviewed that they all have in common?

I can't say I've interviewed a lot. Yeah.

Or just people that have done horrible things to others.

They justify it. They sell it to themselves. I'll tell you this. Usually people who commit some type of violent crime, those were actually easier for me to get confessions on. Really? Because most people-They have an ego around it, huh? Most people feel bad. Aside from the two disorders that we talked about, aside from the disorder where there's a lack of empathy, most people feel bad for what they did, and they'll tell you. So they'll admit to it. Those were easier. Financial crimes, money crimes, scams, the stuff we're seeing now online, those are really hard to people to confess to. In fact, people do it and they don't feel bad. That's why they're so prolific. There's these massive scams happening. Social media.

Oh, it's crazy.

Apps. Tinder. Sorry, Tinder. No, it's crazy. Banks. Because we don't feel bad.

I'm not actually touching you. We've seen this. I mean, so many people are impersonating me and other people. I don't know where they're at, what country they're at, but they're sending emails from a fake louishouse. Live@gmail or Hotmail email using my my name, sending an email saying, Hey, we'd love to have you on the show. We'll pay you $2,000 or $3,000. It'll be live on Facebook. And they get on Zooms with them and they give them access to their Facebook and they take it over. And this has happened multiple times. It's like, every Every time we try to shut it down, they just create a new email, and they're just spamming everyone, I guess. And they're not interacting with them in person. It's digital.

I don't feel that. They feel less remorse. A lot of times they're done from overseas. So that's They're done in other countries, and they'll be countries where there's... I don't want to say what country, specifically. I don't want to target a specific country, but there's certain countries. There's one predominantly in Africa that's very notorious for this, where they're so struggling financially in their third-world country that they look at it like, Look, I know what I'm doing is not great, but who am I really hurting? It's like a $1,000. They have money, it's nothing.

They do it for elderly, too. A lot of elderly are getting scammed?

So elderly people get scammed the most when it comes to money because it is known by people who commit fraud that at that point, they've got some money saved, they're collecting some retirement, they have a pension. So what they'll do is they'll target them for, Hey, we'll invest your money, or, Hey, buy this life insurance. Hey, we'll protect your money. They get scammed financially. I had quite a few of those scams. I remember one woman, she got defrauded. She was part of a bigger case. It's actually very hard to prosecute these cases on a federal level. Sometimes I'd have cases where I had scams, but the dollar amount wasn't high enough for a US attorney to take. And so I would have to fight. They'd say, Find me more victims. But I'm like, I got the guy. Here he is with a... I got a nice bow on this case and everything. The dollar amount's too low. I remember one woman we found, she was part of a collective group that had been defrauded. She was elderly. We found the person. He was charged criminally. But the issue now is how to get money back.

And I think her It was like 30 grand. On the big scheme of things, on an investigative standpoint, it's not a lot. But for her, it was-For her, it's life-changing. She would call me. Can you help me get my money? Can you help me get my money? They found them guilty. Who's going to give me my money? I I'd listen to her and I'm like, Ma'am, your money is gone. This guy, you'd see his assets, you'd see his cars. It didn't matter. One, that's devalued. Two, they blow that money on dinners out. One guy was doing $5,000 in with clients. Where are you going to get that money back? Or they're going on vacation. And so people are left with, you'll get justice in that. That person gets charged criminally. But once they're in prison, where are you going to get your money? Your money is gone.

In your book, Becoming a Bulletproof.

I like the shout out. Thank you.

Of course, you have a chapter that says Everybody Lies. And you talk about these four red flags. I think there's four main red flags on- Everybody Lies. On how to spot why people lie, how people lie, and these red flags. And you also say, don't take it personally when someone does lie. But I'm curious, can you share these, I guess, these main red flags of why people lie?

So there are a lot of different red flags to why people lie. First, the three dominant ways people lie is they'll lie completely. I'll just make up something from beginning to end it's a lie. Second way we lie is truth mixed with lies. So it's truth lies, truth lies. The predominant way people lie, I lie by omission. I just don't tell you. So I don't feel bad. That's where guilt comes in. I don't feel guilty. You didn't ask me, so I'm not going to tell you. The problem with that is you leave it out, but sometimes it changes the whole context of the story. So that's one. So that's when I say everybody lies. And look, it can be a lie of you and I see each other. Hey, Lewis, how are you? Oh, I'm so good. How are you? Evy, I'm so happy to see you. Maybe you're not happy to see me because the last time I You've completely dominated the conversation and you're just like, Evy, shut up. Maybe, but you're like, Evy, it's so good to have you. That's a nice lie, right? But it's still a lie. So we do that from time to time to spare people's feelings for so many different reasons.

Now, as far as trying to detect deception, how do you know somebody's deceiving you? Again, it goes back to behavior. You want to look at the behavior. I'm going to pay attention to that person, to what their normal baseline is. When I sit and I sit across from you, I'm going to look at you. How do you sit, your posture, your demeanor. I'm going to use you as my example. The predominant interview, you sit back, you're relaxed, you're like this. Let's say I ask you a question about something you're uncomfortable with.

I shift or I'm like...

Let's say I say to you, Hey, how are you and your wife doing? Let's say you had a big blow out this morning, right? You do something as simple as, Oh, that's pause for me to say, Why did he just do that? We've talked about all these different things to include serial killers, and the whole time, Louis is sitting back like this. This is his posture. The moment I ask him about his wife, When you see these behaviors, the goal is to be curious. No two people lie the same. So there's stuff out there that's like if they scratch their nose, if they wiggle their toe, all that stuff is nonsense. Because we're so diverse and so complex as individuals, we're all going to do different things. And so I just sit, and you can do this within a minute. You speak to a person. That's why you shut up, you sit back, you ask questions, you let people talk. I get a good feel of you, a reading on you. And then I watch what you do with your body. I watch the shifts. I watch what happens, your mannerisms. Now, you brought up eye contact.

Here's the thing with eye contact. Eye contact does not mean I can lock eyes with you and still lie. Everybody can do it. They may feel bad, but we all know intuitively we should look at people, and especially if we're going to lie, we do... No, I'm absolutely not. I was not there. So you can't really rely on that.

So eye contact is not the best cue.

Not for everybody. It could be good for some people. Not for my daughter. She's what? Eighteen months, we said, right? When she does something bad and I try to make eye contact with her, I'm like, Did you take this? Because now she's starting to understand. Do you know what this kid does? She won't look at me. I'm like, And I'll turn her and she's like, Really? Because she doesn't want to make eye contact with me. Because she doesn't want to lie. She knows she did something wrong.

She's shameful.

She's shameful, but she's also being deceptive. She's like, I'm being interrogated. This lady's drilling me. I'm giving up nothing. But that's her thing. She won't look at me. So everyone's got their tell. So I will tell you this, leave people alone. So if somebody isn't looking at you, parents, if you're a kid or someone's not looking at you, don't teach your kids, Look at me when I talk to you. Look at me. You can use that. But if you know someone's lying to you, don't do that. Because if somebody breaks eye contact when they lie to you, it means their tell is, you've noticed, that they break eye contact when they lie to me. Why would you introduce like, Hey, look at me. Look at me when I'm talking to you. Maybe when they're breaking eye contact, that's their tell. I know how to read my daughter now. When she feels bad, she's done something wrong, she breaks eye contact. She doesn't look at you. No, I'm not going to teach her to be a better liar. Look at me. You know it's bad to tell mommy lies, right? Look at mommy when she's talking to you.

I'm teaching her how to be a better liar. Those are little things.

Why? Because if she looked at you and lied.

Because I'm teaching her, Look at me when you lie.

Oh, interesting.

Look at mommy when you lie. But if I know her tell is she breaks eye contact when she's going to do something bad or tell a lie, why would I do that? Leave people alone. And not just with a child. I just think in general with people. When you ever speak to someone and you're having a really serious conversation, they start laughing you or they're smiling. And you say, What? Don't laugh. This isn't funny. I'm talking to you. This is a serious conversation. They don't know they're doing that. They're laughing because they're stressed out. The body leaks information. Remember I said, Look at the behavior. So when the body feels stressed and when we're lying or in a certain situations, our body wants to leak out that stress and we don't know how to do it. And everybody's body does it differently. So some people will laugh when they're stressed out.

They'll smile. I do that sometimes. Or when something is really bad, I giggle. But I also say, Man, that's really messed up. But I'm just laughing because I'm like, Man, that is so messed up. I'm like, I'm sorry if I'm laughing, but it's just it's so messed up.

It's your stress reliever. So your body releases stress through here. It's just what you do. Now, your wife, if she's listening, she shouldn't say, Hey, Louis, don't laugh when I'm talking to you. She should be quiet, read you, and understand this is what he does when he's stressed out. So if he's talking to me something, I should be more curious. And what I should do is not call you out on it. I should come up from behind and ask more follow-up questions. Tell me about that. What happened again? Tell me a little bit more. And this is how you get people to reveal the truth to you. And there are other indicators. There's so many. But what I will say is look at people. I'll give you another example. I talk with my hands a lot. I'm Greek. I can't help it. I'm also in New York, so it makes it even worse. But if I'm speaking to you and I'm like, Lewis, you know what happened yesterday? I went out with my friends and we went out, we had dinner. It was great. I'm talking to you like this. Then you say to me, Hey, Evy, what else are you working on?

Or are you working with those people anymore? And all of a sudden, my hand's Why did she just do this. All you got to do in that moment is say, Why did she just do that? Evy the whole time has been talking to me with her hands. The minute I asked her this question about working with this specific group of people, Evy's hands went away. Why? What you would do- It's just to do follow questions, right? It's like, Yeah, tell me about that. What happened there? Oh, that's interesting. Do you talk to them more? Are you guys friends? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. Well, I worked with them on this. What do you think? You get people to open up. Now I start to share more with you about what's going on. That's the whole point of this. It's not like, Hey, you just did this. I got you. Because that doesn't help you.

You scratch your head, you scratch your nose, you cover your face.

Some people, right before they're about to lie to you, some people may do this. They may put their hands in front of their mouth. It's almost like because- To block it or to protect themselves. Because this is a delivery mechanism of how we speak, this is where the lie is coming out of my mouth. Or if I'm talking to you about something I don't want to speak about or I'm comfortable with. Let's say the whole time we're like this, you ask me something I don't want to talk about. Let's say you ask me about my husband. We're fine. Sorry, but we're good. But we had a fight, I don't want to talk about it, and you ask me about him and I do this. Well, he's all right. If I haven't done it before, all you would do in that moment is, why does she just do that? Or maybe you don't want to follow up, but you pay attention.

Take note of it, yeah.

That's how the body works. Look, the majority of what you communicate to the world is equally, it's important to know that this tool is how you engage people. And so most of what people read on you is this. So you want to learn how to use this. We throw it away and we sit and we memorize talking points and we memorize what we're going to say. But what we don't realize, that's the least influential thing when it comes to communication. The most influential thing of what we actually communicate, it's the body. It's like 55% is the body, the research says. 38% is paralinguistics. It's this, my tone, my pitch, my voice, my cadence, my pauses, how I speak. Hi, I'm heavy? Hi, I'm Evy. What did I do last night? What did I do last night? So That's paralinguistics. That's actually 38%. And then 7% are the actual words that come out of our mouth.In fact, 49% of what we say, people don't remember. We sit and we memorize talking points. We memorize our bullet points when we do pitches, when we do, I need to say this, I need to say this, I need to say this.

And that's just such a small, minute of what they're actually hearing. When what they hear is your body and your voice, how you deliver the information.

So people remember and hear 55% of your body language. Power Linguistics is 38%, the tone of your voice, right? And then the actual words is 7%, is that correct? Yeah, that's a bomb. That is fascinating. It's like, gosh, who was the quote? Maya Angelou, I think she said, People won't remember what you said, but they'll remember the way you made them feel, right? Yes. I don't remember. I have a mentor of mine that 30 years ago, I heard him give a speech on stage at a school, and he's still a mentor and a friend of mine today. I don't remember the speech, but I remember the way he made me feel. I remember maybe a couple of analogies or something that stood out. But I don't remember the 30-minute or 60-minute talk. But I remember the energy from the combination of all these different things, right? From the body language, from the tone, from all these different things. But I don't remember the words. But I remember the way it made me feel through his expression. And it sounds like the body is, the majority of the expression, then the tone adds to it, then the words.

Yes.

You could actually say nothing but have a huge impact on people with body language and tone alone.

Yes. That's the majority of what people receive when you speak to them. But what we do is we memorize these talking points and we think, I have to say all these things. The other thing is, too, you don't have to say all of it. Give them your greatest hits. We think more is good. No, more is just more. Then people just start to… You lose them. Give them the highlights. Give them the highlight reel. Then later, you'll give them more if you need to. Even when I do the news, I'm going to talk about, as I said earlier, on NBC, we're going to do why there's so many… The question is, Evy, why there's so many school shootings on campuses right now or so much violence, excuse me, violence on campuses? I could come up It's like 10 talking points as to why. But I can't. But here's three. Here's three. Here are my greatest hits because the segments are three minutes because people lose attention. We're trying to keep people's attention span, which is even harder today than it's ever been. That's why you have to bring all of you into it to connect.

Even with Zooms, you ever watch a Zoom or you've been on Zoom, everyone looks like they're falling asleep or like they're dead? Because in real life, they don't look that off. But actually, the camera takes a lot of energy away. Interesting. I learned that, too, when I began doing the news or when you're on air to give more because otherwise you fall flat.

More energy. Yes. More expression.

You want to You want to make people feel connected to you. People remember how you make them feel. They won't remember anything you say, but they'll remember, I like Louis. I like being around him. I felt good when I was with Louis. In fact, I I felt so good. I trusted Louis. When people trust you, Louis, you know what happens to their body? The body releases oxytocin. And oxytocin does what? It's the hormone that makes us feel good. It makes us feel bonds. It helps us build relationship bonds with people. So I feel good around Louis. I trust Louis. That feeling is oxytocin in my body, biologically increasing. That goes up. I have that oxytocin increase, then I feel even better around you, and I give you more trust. Then my oxytocin goes up even more. And on this cycle goes. That's why it's how we make people feel. Now, it's not about making people like us. That's a whole other avenue, and that should not be your goal. But it's about creating an environment in which people feel like they want to be around you.

That's interesting. I've heard this, I don't know how many times when I got into the business world that The phrase is, People do business with those they know, like, and trust. Know, like, and trust is the phrase in business. I think it's like getting the relationships with people they know, like, and trust, all these different things. If you're at a networking event or a business conference or some type of meet and greet, and you're meeting someone for the first time that you would like to potentially work with in the future, do business with, be in some type of a relationship with, what would you say are a few things that someone can do in the first five minutes of meeting someone to create an environment of know, like, and trust in those first few minutes?

Okay. None of that. None of that. Here's the problem with that. It's like a strategy, right? It's a strategy, a technique. And do you like it when people use techniques on you? No, absolutely not. Do you like it when people use tricks on you? No. So why would you do that to somebody else? And you want to build a genuine connection with them?

100%. How should someone build a genuine connection?

One, you're going to get rid of that, and especially this whole like thing, because I'm I'm not focused on you. I'm focused on getting you to like me. What's my mission? My goal is to build a relationship with you. So how can I do that? How about I'm respectful? How about I'm professional? How about I'm warm? I'm approachable. I'm welcoming. I have empathy. How about I give you that and then organically, Louis, you will like me? Instead of me being like, I need Louis to like me because now I'm going down the crazy train of, I need to get him to like me. I need to get him to like me. That's a massive distraction. You're trying to manipulate someone to get them to like me. I need to get them to like me. And that's a massive distraction. And you're trying to manipulate someone to get them to like you. And here's the thing, you can do all the things right, and people may still not like you.

Yeah, something's off there.

You have to be okay with that. I'm not for everyone, and that's okay.

And I think it goes back to your earlier point of identity versus instrumental. And if we're coming into a relationship thinking of, What can I get out of this?

Yes. What can I What do I do to make you like me? Where am I? I'm identity. Me, me, me. I just care about me. I care about how I feel, and I need to feel that you like me rather than, I just met this man. He seems like he's got his head on right. He's someone I'd like to do business with. How about I shut up, I listen, I build a genuine connection, I ask him about himself, I show him respect, I'm professional, I'm warm, especially in professional settings. Because sometimes, too, in business, and this happens a lot, when I have companies come to me for consultations or different things, they'll say to me, Where do we go wrong? Because you try to make people your friends. Then, Oh, your employees, bosses will try to have their employees as their friends. Then when they try to be the boss, again, the employee gets upset like, I can't believe you said that to me because you're blurring the lines. When you are overly nice, overly kind, and overly polite, that blows up in your face. That's how you get rolled. I'm not telling you not to be warm, kind, polite to people.

But when you make that your focal point because you want everybody to like you, it never works.

Instead of wanting everyone to like you, what should people be thinking?

How about you just build a genuine connection with somebody? How about you show genuine interest in them? How about you show them that you're open to them, that you're non-judgmental? That's another thing, non-judgmental, not passing judgment. And today, everybody's quick to tell everybody how messed up they We've got this big groupthink mentality. People like to be in groups or feel part of something. It's another identity thing. I'm on this side and you're on that side. How about nobody needs to know what side you're on? And if somebody expresses something that you don't agree with, so what? You can accept a person and not agree with what they say. So going back to earlier on, I told you my 9/11 story, right? After that, I began doing interviews and interrogations on terrorists or terrorist sympathizers or people who believed in that or thought 9/11 was a good thing. When I did those interviews, nobody in that room that I interviewed was the wiser as to whether I had been exposed to 9/11. Why? My goal doing that interview was to get intelligence, to get information. My mission was, what do I need to know about another possible attack?

That was my goal. My goal was not to come in and be like, Do you know what you did? Do you know what your people did? So I could sit there.

So you're being non-judgmental It's very fundamental when you're interrogating.

Because it's not about me. Because I wasn't an identity. I wanted to know the person across from me. I wanted to be curious. Sometimes they would say things that I thought had some like, I get your point. I get why you're saying this. I get why you feel this. I can empathize. Sympathy and empathy, not the same thing. I can hear you, but that made me a better interviewer and a better connector with people. There's this other study they did. Can you tell I like studies? There was a study they did, and I believe it was out of Sweden. And what they did is they took a population of violent offenders who had been convicted. So we have these convicted offenders of violent crimes, and they asked them, How did you feel about the person who interviewed you? One group said, I didn't like the person. They were cold. They were judgmental. I didn't like the way they made me feel. He was a jerk. That was that one group. The other group said, I like the person. They were warm. They weren't judgmental. They listened to me. I liked who they Then they looked at who gave confessions.

The group that said, I like the person that spoke to me. I felt connected to them. They weren't judgmental. They gave confessions or admissions. And the group that said they didn't like the person, If nothing, zero.

Wow.

So you can sit across from someone and be respectful, be professional, have compassion, have empathy.

And not agree with them.

Why? Because now you make it about you. So you have to be very clear, where am I going? Where am I driving to? What path am I going on? When you challenge people, everybody who's an identity, or you challenge people at every point that they don't agree with you, you're going to hit obstacle after obstacle. And also, you're going to make it harder for yourself to get there. And also, quite honestly, who cares? I'm very clear about if I want to argue something, I'm like, Do I want to put my cognitive and emotional energy into this? No. I'm very aware. We talked about boundaries earlier off camera. My boundaries are more for me than anybody else. My boundary is I decide very carefully who I'm going to debate something with. People, politics. I hear about politics all the time because I worked in the White House and I protected almost all of them. Most of what people say is wrong. I never correct them. I'm like, Yeah, okay. No kidding. Really?

So you don't say, Well, this is my opinion, and I don't believe with that.

No, I'm busy. I have things going on. I don't have time. I'm not going to put that emotional energy into it. Interesting.

So if they get really defensive and like, I really believe in this thing, and in your mind, you're like, Man, that doesn't make sense to me. But how do you respond to someone like that?

80/20. That's really interesting. Wow. Okay.

That's Yes. They're like, What do you think? Do you agree with me?

I really don't. I'm neutral. I'm Switzerland. I never really get involved in that stuff. I get it. But most people don't want to know what I think. Most people want to tell me what they think, so I let them. Because you have to think about also your emotional energy and your cognitive energy. Again, it's another narrative that I'm going to tell you my boundary, and I'm going to tell you my boundary. How about I'm the gatekeeper of my boundary, and I decide who I'm going to emotionally invest in.

How do we set boundaries that actually work then?

I have to put those boundaries in place.

Do we communicate those boundaries, or is it more of like, I'm just going to know my boundaries and react based on that?

behavior. I control my behavior. I don't sit there and tell everybody, Let me tell you my boundaries. One, nobody cares. I'm identity. You need to know how I feel. You need to know how I think. You need to respect me.

It's more your behavior. You just want to engage with people.

I don't invite it in. It depends what you want because sometimes you have to work with people and you want to create good boundaries Boundaries. I'll give you this example. When I was in my service, my previous job, it was 90% male. There was always a thing where I wanted Did you need to be part of the group because I did. But I also understood I needed to be mindful and careful because I didn't want boundaries being crossed. So how do you do that? I did certain things. When they go out drinking, because we would travel a lot and I wouldn't go. If they'd go out as a group, I would be like, Are we going to eat? Or are we going to go hang out? If we're going to go hang out, I'm not going. To the bars or something, yeah. I wouldn't go. Although maybe I wanted to go. I understood I had I had to navigate those boundaries because the moment I did that, something could get lost there. I knew this was a population of people I wanted to work with and I wanted to have respect, so I needed to manage that well.

You have to find those boundaries, but you show people your boundaries. I show you where I begin and where I end. I show you what I'm willing to take and what I'm not willing to take. I got this piece of advice. Well, somebody shared this with me, John Franchi. I can give him a shoutout. Former CIA Chief of Station, massive He was a relatively smart guy. I was interviewing him, and we were talking, and he was a manager of a lot of people. He said, I'll tell you what. He's like, It's easier from the get-go to have good boundaries with people, and then you can diminish them rather than try to be everybody's friend and then put in those boundaries. Interesting. Yeah, it's true. He's like, First you put the boundaries in, and then you build the warmth. That's smart. And he's like, They're not my friends. Because the minute I treat them like my friends, now I'm going to have a hard time telling them what to do because I'm their boss. Interesting. And then people are confused, But you were at the bar with me having a beer the other night, and now you're telling me what to do?

You're telling me my assignment is going to be a midnight shift for a week Because I could stand staring at a wall. Why would you do that? We just had beers. I thought you were my friend.

Start with boundaries first and then extend them the more you get in a relationship with someone.

Just keep those boundaries and create warmth. The research actually comes from Susan Fisk and Chris Malone. They did a research study on high achievers, people that were very successful, and they were trying to find out what characteristic these high achievers and successful people have. And warmth was one of them, being warm. Not being liked. Warm. But just showing I'm open, I'm approachable, I'm accessible, you can talk to me.

But it seems like a lot of people want respect in life, whether it be in the workplace or in relationships, with friends or family. They want respect. But I've heard you talk about we should stop chasing respect and we should start prioritizing something else, why do you think we shouldn't be chasing respect?

Because I'm chasing respect, and I'm not... What's my goal in this interaction? Is my goal to make you respect me? Or is my goal to have a good interview with you? Also, I'll show you respect. I'll show you compassion. I'll show you listening. I'll give you my all for this interview, and that's my focus. And with that, I hope I get respect. I'm here three times. I'm thinking I'm doing okay. But if my goal is I need to make Louis respect me, now I'm distracted from what I'm trying to do. I'm focused on you and trying to get into your head. Maybe, Louis, I do all these things. Are you guaranteed respect? No. Now I'm distracted and I'm focused on making you respect me. Respect is It's a great thing to have, but you're not always going to get it. Being okay that when you don't get it, if you can check those boxes off in your head, I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this. Then at that point, you're like, It's not me. But you're going to sit and try to figure out what's going on in everybody's mind to figure out what's happening up here, and then getting emotionally upset because this person doesn't respect you.

Now, if it's a serious relationship, one that's an intimate relationship or even a supervisor, then you have to ask yourself, you have to be honest and be like, This isn't working. I'm trying to make somebody be something, and how are not What statistic is it of me to think I'm going to make you be a certain way towards me. You're your own governor. Now, I think I'm going to pull those public strings and get you to... Then at that point, you take power back and say, Okay, I'm in an environment where I don't want to I'm not happy here anymore. I'm not happy with this person. They're not changing clearly. What do I do? Now it's like, Maybe I need to put my resume out there. I take power back and change the narrative of my story. Instead of saying, I'm screwed. I'm working for this person. It will never change.

You have self-respect by leaving the situation or the environment and creating a boundary, I guess, by your behavior and your actions.

Well, I'm also going back to being problem-solving. I'm Instrumental versus- Yes, I'm going into that solution mindset. Okay, what am I dealing with here? I have this and I have this, I have this. I've exhausted everything I can with this person. Nothing is changing. It is not healthy for me. So if I've done all these things, I'm competent in my job. I show up on time. I do what I say I'm going to do. I'm going to follow through, I'm warm. I'm approachable. I'm respectful. I'm professional. If I am doing all these things and it is still not giving me respect, then now I have to make choices to change that instead of being at the mercy of this other person's chaos or whatever else. God only knows what's going on up there. If you find yourself saying, I would never do that, hit the brakes. You're not thinking right because It's not about what you would never do. I'd never do this. I'd never do that. That's where we go wrong because we're not seeing clearly. We're identity. I'm seeing the world through me and my lens of how I would move. Rather, I want to see the world through their lens.

You have to think of the long-term exposure of somebody's life and how it's made them who they are, where they were born, their parents, how they were raised. Did they even have parents? One parent, two parents, no parents, the city or country they were raised in. Did they go to school or not go to school?

Relationships they'd been through.

The socioeconomic background, their traumas, their traumas, their experiences. All these long-term things make them who they are. Now I'm going to come in heavy and I'm going to whip you up to be what I want you to be and what? A couple of hours, days, weeks?

If you don't like it, leave.

Just give yourself, get into a solution mindset rather than dwelling on the problem of my boss sucks, my boss is a bully, to saying, Okay, this is what I have. Where's the solution?

Can I make it work here? Can I have a conversation with someone? Can I set myself up for success? Can I communicate my wants or needs. If I'm not getting what those things are by cautiously communicating, then maybe this isn't for me.

Here's the other thing with respect. The issue with it, and you brought up self-respect. Self-respect matters more because sometimes people around you may not respect you, and they might be wrong because sometimes the masses get it wrong. People follow. It's a herd mentality. People bully and gang up on people left and right. You see it on social all the time or with celebrities. Every week, somebody's getting their reputation just slandered, and it's bullying, and everybody jumps on it. Sometimes it's just not... Sometimes it's just cruel. There's one célib they're doing it now, and I'm just like, Leave the woman alone. But if I'm chasing everybody else's respect, that means if you respect me, then only then am I valid. It's an external driver. An external driver is it's when I want the outside world to validate me. But I have to be steady enough to where maybe sometimes the outside world won't validate me. I have to be steady enough to understand that it comes from inside. Right.

I wanted to ask you about something coming from inside side, which is around vulnerability. When I grew up as a young boy, growing into my teens and college years, I never felt like I could be vulnerable. I didn't feel like I could be because I would get made fun of or picked on or bullied or laughed at. If I showed weakness. Vulnerability meant weakness when I was growing up. Over the last 5, 7 years, we're seeing people talk about how vulnerability is a strength and could be powerful in a strength and relatability, connecting with others, allowing others to understand you a little bit better. But it also seems like there's a swing of vulnerability, which is like extreme vulnerability, which is like oversharing all the time, as opposed to a conscious vulnerability at the right timing and setting and things like that. Where do you feel like we are with vulnerability today? And is vulnerability a strength or a weakness in society today?

Well, if you're using it as a technique to get people to like you, then there's a problem. Yes. Because it's not genuine. Let's use this example. Your dad passed away, yes? Yes. Okay, my dad passed away. So let's say I'll come in here, and we actually had this conversation last time. You may not remember, but I remember because I knew your dad had passed. I came in and said, Hey, Louis, how are you? Good to see you. I'm really sorry about your father passing away. You started talking about your dad. You were telling me, you were expressing to me, Yeah, I'm working through it, whatever. Now, let's say in that moment, I'm like, Hey, I'm going to share my vulnerability with you, Louis. You know what, Louis? My dad passed away, too. He just passed and blah, blah, blah. Now, I just took your moment and brought it on to me because I'm thinking I'm going to be vulnerable, too, rather than shutting up, listening, and letting you have your moment to talk about your father and whatever it is you want to share, and really listening and building that genuine connection. And then if it organically happens, then I can say, You know what?

Yeah, my dad passed, too. So I can feel like your heartache. I'm truly sorry. And if you invite further in the conversation, I can tell you a little bit more about that. But if I start saying, This is what happened. This is how he passed. How did he juror that? If I do that, then I'm not honoring. I'm making it about me. So all I'm saying is with the whole vulnerability When you think it's become a technique or strategy, which makes the whole thing disingenuous, how about you just really connect with people and you listen? Don't just share to share because now you're not doing it because you really care. You're doing it because you think, I have to do this so that I can build this connection with Louis, and so we can... And that's where we go wrong. I don't know. Tell me if I'm wrong.

No, I think that makes sense to me. When anything is used as a strategy, I think people can eventually feel it or sense it or smell it. At least I feel like I can. Even sharing this interview might be a little worrisome for me in some ways because I'm like, Oh, are people going to start just acting with respect and warmth and empathy and intensity? In these ways when they first meet me? Am I going to feel like that's the strategy because they're learning from this? You have to really make sure that it's from a genuine place.

But you said something, you feel it.

You feel it if it's off.

You feel it. You're intuition or your instincts, that's a legitimate thing. You can call it whatever you want. You have to... So you read people. It's interesting. You're subconscious or however you want to word it. You read people before you've had a chance to consciously read people. You ever go to a room or a party or an event, right? And you'll meet someone, they didn't say anything to you, they didn't do anything to you, but you're like, I don't like that dude. I don't like that guy. I don't know why. I just don't like him. You have to listen to that. That is you telling you, Hey, Louis, just yellow on this one. Just proceed with caution. You must listen to it because it's picking up non-verbals, other things, other cues, and even other people's, the vibrations or energy. My friend Lisa Salvatore, who is a spiritual intuitive, she always talks about every people's vibration and energy. She's like, You can feel it. Listen to that. I listen to it all the time, and I'm not a spiritual. I'm a very instrumental, rational thinking person. But at the same time, I feel people, and if it feels off, I'll either steer away from you or if I have to work with you, I'll say, Okay, I have to be around this person.

I'm going to be careful. I'm going to create my boundaries without them knowing it. I'm just going to keep my distance.

Boundaries work when the other person doesn't know you're doing it.

It's for you. Yes. What is it you think that is in someone when we meet them at an event or someone's partner, whatever it might be, that we feel like something is off inside of them? Maybe we didn't even hear them say anything. Maybe we did. But within the first few minutes, we just feel like something is off with that person. What do you think that is that is off about them? Is it their energetic vibration? Is that of alignment with moral code in society? Is it they have an intention? You feel like they don't pay attention to people? They're looking around the room. They're more interested in who the best person here is as opposed to who's in front of them. What is it that energy that is off that we're reading?

I think it's all those things. Here it is. The signal is something is off with this person. Boom, right there. That's it. I got it. Now, it's you trying to what it is. If you want to sit and figure out what it is, usually you can tell. You just gave me examples because you felt it. You've met somebody and you felt the energies off. Maybe in a scenario, you're thinking you're talking to them and they're clearly at some big agent event or something or big event, and they're sizing up the room to see who else they can talk to instead of really building a connection with you. So you already know. Most people, we don't trust ourselves. And this is where respect is Trust comes in and trust comes in. How about you trust yourself? We're so focused on the outside world, trust comes within. So if it feels off, trust yourself that I feel off for a reason and pay attention. They're going to show you what it is. They're going to show you what it is. There's a saying from Greek mythology, it was from Adyceus, and he said, Don't listen to your opponent.

Look at them. It will tell you everything. Just sit back and watch the behavior. I can't tell you how many people I've come across, and not that they've done anything, but I'm like, no. Really? Sure. It doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean they're a narcissist. It means they're not for me. It also It means like, look, I'm trying to align myself to be a certain way, and you and I were speaking about that earlier, that you're trying to find people and environments to be in alignment in where you're going. I do the same thing. And so I try to feel, is this person aligned with wherever I'm going? Because if they're not aligned with me and I'm trying to go this way, when I bring in that misaligned person, what are they going to do? And then I get pissed at them.

If you're meeting someone- Should I just come with you to these parties? Tell me, what do you think? You've always been put together, your body language, your physical appearance, what you're wearing. You've always been put together when I was seeing you. I'm not saying that's the way you are all the time, 24/7. But when you show up, I'm assuming when you were working in Secret Service, you were showing up in a professional setting with the way you appeared. In what ways do you think our physical appearance impacts our ability to enroll people in our vision and life, in what we want to create, in partnerships, in opportunities, the way we physically healthy look or where, Don't look, the clothes we're wearing, the makeup, the hair position, everything. How much does our physical package impact our ability to enroll people in our life and our vision?

It impacts a lot. Really? And a lot of people don't like it because it's like, We want to know what's inside. But when people don't know what's inside and all they have to judge you by is what they see on the outside, it's going to create an impact and an impression. So I will tell you this unequivocally, it was drilled in us in the US Secret Service that our parents mattered. So For example, watch next time you see the president, every agent's wearing a dark suit. It was a rule. It wasn't an informal policy. Dark suits, dark gray, navy, black. You're not going to see anybody in that.

You couldn't wear that, huh?

No, I could not.

Why couldn't you wear white?

Because it's what is projecting. What's white projecting? This doesn't project lethality. It doesn't.

It's spiritual warmth.

This is like, Hey, on the Loops House podcast, I've got Let's talk about warmth here and connecting with people. Hey, I'm in LA. No, this doesn't project that. But if I wore my black suit, if I wore my dress shirt, again, even the guys, you wouldn't You'll see them either in a white shirt or a light blue shirt because it's what that image projects. Dark colors project. Even just having your suit, our shoes had to be shined. The boss will look at your feet and he'll be like, Go shine Find those things. Don't walk around like that. Because if I'm put together, then the bad guy who's looking to do something, he's going to be like, She looks put together. He looks put together. They all look put together. Maybe I should think twice about this.

There might be consequences to my actions.

They look like they're put together. If I look like I'm put together, people are less likely to want to cross you, challenge you. They also see you as competent and having authority. It means this person woke up, they ironed their suit, they combed their hair, they shined their shoes, they've got it together.

They're ready to go.

Yes. That image matters. That image was actually a very important thing because if I looked like a disheveled mess, then it looked like my security plan was going to be a disheveled mess. My colleagues were, and it sent a clear signal to everybody else, Come on, take a shot. We obviously can't even put ourselves together, so why don't you go for it? Wow. And fitness was another big thing. Fitness. In fact, on the President's detail, they They made sure everybody was physically fit. I mean, they weighed us.

Really? Like on a monthly basis or what?

Every three months.

They weigh you.

It was weight, and it was... And again, it wasn't for the visual part. It was weight, flexibility, how fast you could run, how many pull-ups you could do, your push-ups. There was certain things you had to do within a window. Every three months, you had to take this test.

Is body composition something that matters when you're trying to influence credibility authority, authority, trust.

What do you mean by that?

I mean, if I'm, I guess, 100 pounds obese, right? Overweight and obese, and my body composition is not broad shoulders, tapered waist, athletic build versus massive belly slumped over shoulders, is my credibility impacted in my body composition?

In that job, yes, it would be. Because in that specific job, because you have to be physically fit, it's also someone's looking to potentially attack or harm someone you protect, or you're doing a search warrant, arrest warrant, people size you up, and they're looking like, I think I could take him. I think I could take her, but he looks like he can't run. So in that space, yes, it mattered. Now, in other spaces, it may not. I think in the end, you have to be good with you, and you have to be healthy with you. So that's what matters. And if you don't feel healthy and you don't feel right, listen to what your body is telling you. Take care of it. But I will say that physical fitness and even mental harmony and emotional, it all goes together. There's the separation with your mind can be healthy, but your body doesn't have to be.

That's out of alignment then, right?

It is out of alignment. It's not about not accepting people as they are. I don't think that's right because obviously health issues and people's stuff comes into play. But your health and well-being matter, and it all has to be in alignment. I guess what I would say is take care of yourself, love Love yourself and respect yourself. And some of that is what is your body composition, and are you okay with it? Are you genuinely okay with it? And if you're not genuinely okay with it, then that's all right. And you could say, Okay, what alternative changes do I need to make? Or can I make them? It's not an easy thing. This goes back to the first thing you asked me. You said, What did you learn in the Secret Service, the top three things? And the one thing I learned was the people around me impact me. So I learned to respect and work out and take care of my body because everybody around me did it. It was guaranteed. In fact, they would work it into our schedule. It was mandatory for you to work out on the job.

I love that.

It was mandatory. There was a gym. The first thing with 9/11, when we lost our offices, the whole building collapsed, we lost our US Secret Service, New York Field Office. When they went and found a new office for us, they moved it to Brooklyn. One of the first things the guys did is Where's the gym going to go? Because it was such a way of life. It was such a culture because it was understood that our bodies had to be in peak performance always. I do think it matters, and I do think it sends a message to the world to a certain degree, depending on what you do.

How do you take care of your physical appearance without the worry or fear or insecurity of, I'm too put together and I have too many nice things on that I might be judged for the designer stuff I'm wearing or the jewelry or the nice watch or the gold necklace versus I'm too basic and just a black T-shirt and Sweat pants isn't the right thing either. How do we learn to navigate physical appearance for that ultimate trust and credibility?

I'm laughing now because they did this in the Secret Service. They would tell us how to Really? So we'd have an event. They'd say, Okay, this is business attire. So you knew the dark suits were coming out, white shirt or light blue shirt. Make sure you bring your sunglasses because you might be standing out. The sunglasses were so that people don't know where you're looking in, obviously, for the sun. But If it was knee casual, knee casual was khaki pants, polo shirts. You knew. There was no mistakes. You needed to know how to dress. They wanted you, but you dressed for the occasion. I'm not rolling into the White House or to stand post in this this outfit. There's no way. They'd be like, You need to go home. And I would get sent home. So you dress for where you're going.

I guess- Why is that important, though, in society, to dress for the occasion?

It depends. In the service, it mattered because, one- That's the rules. It's the rules. But also, I can't show up in this suit and stand next to the President of the United States because now everyone's distracted by what I'm wearing. I need to blend into the background. Not only do I need to exude strength, don't mess with me. And if I'm wearing a bright pink suit, it's like, I don't know if I'm doing that. There's nothing wrong with pink, but- But how do we implement that lesson into, I guess, Our daily lives.

Yeah, the daily lives in professional settings or social settings that aren't rule-based with secret service. To also, again, not as a strategy, but more of like, I just want to put my best foot forward and my best potential self forward in every setting to have the most harmonious life possible and create the most opportunities naturally and organically for me.

You know what? I'll put it this way. If you show up in sweat pants, you're going to attract other people who wear sweat pants. If you show up in a suit, you're going to attract other people who wear suits. If you show up in your pajama pants, you're going to do the same thing. I'm a college professor. I've seen students show up and I'm like, Are those pajama pants she's wearing today? Sure enough. You couldn't get up and put a pair of pants on and comb your hair to come to class. I don't care. Non-judgment here. I don't care. I tell my students, Everybody, you should welcome here. But you're sending a signal. Well, what signal are you sending to everybody around you? The other guy wearing pajamas, he's going to come up and he's more than likely to say hi to you. So what is his head space in?

Who are you attracting?

That's what you're going to attract. The guy in the suit or a gal in the suit or whoever's polished is less than likely going to sit and talk to you because There's nothing in common there. That's how you have to navigate it. Some people may be like, I don't care. Power to you. But it's what are you trying to attract? But if you're rolling in in sweat pants all the time and you're scratching your head going, What's going on? Look at those things. I think it matters how we show up. I know, look, my daughter could grow up and be like, Mom, stop telling me what to do. But I don't think I want to buy that kid a pair of sweat pants. I don't want to wear sweat pants when she goes out into the world.

What about at home?

When she's watched That's okay. I've got him at home, too. But you have to care. I guess if I show I care about myself, then it means I took time to take care of myself, to put myself together, to walk out of the house, to show myself to the world. I'm not saying every time I'm glammed up and this and that. I'm a human being. There's days where I want to dress down. There's days when my husband's like, Somebody might recognize you. You sure you don't want to tidy it up a bit? But I'm like, Hey, I'm just going to Starbucks. Who's going to see me? Or I'm going to Duncan. I think it's a personal choice. But what you said, you also can't care that much that your outer appearance matters. Speaking of dads, when my dad passed away. My book had just come out. My dad passed away. He had this old minivan, Mazda thing, and this thing was running. At that time, my lease expired on my car. But this thing was running great. I'm like, I'll drive this. I was like, I'll drive this. I drove that thing. It's his old minivan.

I mean, it even had rust on the side. It was paid off. It ran great. I didn't care if anybody dinged in, especially in New York. You can't drive anything nice there. I drove that thing like, I was happy. It was comfortable Seats were great. They weren't even leather. They were this fabric material. I drove it around for four years. My brother's like, Hey, can I take that? And I gave it to my brother. I think you also have to be confident in yourself, too. Yes. Now, maybe would I roll in car at a WME party with my agent or something? I might not.

Sure. Again, we're talking about your book, Becoming bulletproof Life Lessons from a Secret Service Agent. Make sure you guys check this out. There's so much great information on this in this book about, again, the things we've talked about, but so many more things, and really how to understand people and the lessons that you learn from so many different types of people that you interrogated or, I guess, interviewed along your time, but also just what you were able to observe and the lessons you learned. So I want people to get the copy of this book by Evy Pampouris. Make sure you guys check it out. Also on social media, your Evy Pampouris on Instagram and everywhere else on social media, evypampouris. Com as well. Where else can we support and serve you besides the book and follow you on social media?

No, I mean, that's it. And I always appreciate when you do that, that shout out. Thank you. And it's like, I have online training courses that I do as well for folks because people, when the things that happen, people would write in and they still do, Hey, I have this issue. I have this problem. How do I handle it? I designed live courses where we cover certain themes, and it gives people a little bit more... I call it beyond bulletproof because it's beyond the book. It gives people a little bit more, and I never thought I'd do a course like that, but it gives people a little bit more info on how to navigate certain things. But I appreciate always that you do that.

Yeah, of course. Where can they go to check that out?

I just go to my website, www. Www. Evipomperse. Com or beyondbulletproof. Net.

There you go. I love it. A couple of fun questions for you. I asked you these before, but I'm curious if it's changed. This one's called the Three Truths. I don't know if you remember this question. You probably don't remember the answers.

I suck at these, by the way, but go ahead. It's all good.

Imagine it's the last day on Earth, many years away. You get to live as long as you want, and you get to create and accomplish everything you dream of. But for whatever reason, it's the last day on Earth for you, and you have to take all of your work with you. So the book is gone, the course is gone, anything you create from here on out, this interview, gone. Hypothetically. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. I call it three truths. What would those three truths be for you that you would share with the world? That's all we have to remember you by.

Be a good human being. Do the right thing by people. Like your humanity. That be one. You don't know everything. You're not that special. You're just part of the whole thing. We should all be humble and just be part of the world but not try to dominate it. I think just live with meaning, whatever that meaning is. You don't have to be. I think this is important to say because sometimes a lot of the stuff out there says, Are you mediocre? Or are you not living your best life? Or are you not achieving these things? Sometimes living a simple life doesn't mean you're not achieving. Sometimes being a person who stays home to raise a child doesn't mean you're not a high achiever. You just made a whole human being. That's pretty significant. Just whatever you're doing, put your heart in it because that's what stays behind. The book, all this other stuff doesn't go. Podcasts won't go. None of this will go. It's just what feeling are you leaving in the world? Maybe how's your legacy? How will people feel about you?

That's beautiful.

When they show up at your funeral.

That's beautiful. I want to acknowledge you, Eric, for your constant journey of evolving as a human, being a mom, and also being of service to people with the information you've learned for so many years now. I think the content that you share and how you share it is extremely powerful and helpful for people. I really acknowledge you. Every time you've been on here, I don't know if this is the third or maybe it's the fourth time, but at least three times, it's people love it, they love the content, and they get so much value from what you share. I acknowledge you for your gifts, your talents, and your desire to be of service in so many ways. That's really appreciative. So thank you for that. Final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Just try to be a good person and not make everything about me. Just be a great person to the world. I guess everyone's taking. Let's just give. And then maybe with the weight, Just be a great human being. The anger will go away. The sadness will diminish. Your anxiety will pass. In fact, the more we are self-consumed, the more those things dominate, the The more anxiety we have, the more depression we have, the more anger we have. Just be a great person to the world. Navigate carefully. Don't be naive and think everyone's out to be your Kumbaya friend. Move appropriately when you feel people who are off. Create space and keep your distance. Make good choices. Create boundaries for yourself to follow. But also within that, Be a great, be of great service to the world.

There you go, Abby. Thanks so much. Appreciate you. Appreciate it.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make I'd like to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple podcast. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcast as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.