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16S only why are relationships seemingly so hard for so many people when it's the thing we need the most? To feel alive, to feel happy and feel connect.

This is the million dollar question. You know, I'm a relationship therapist. For 35 plus years, I work with people in their romantic relationships, family relationships, friendships, co founder, colleagues, coworkers. So love and work, the two pillars of our life, as Freud said. And if I could just say, why is the simple feeling of loving or caring not enough? Because the entire human drama is really complex. The same way as nature is complex, so is human nature complex. And I spent my whole career studying what is changing in relationships. Are they more complicated today? Are they more painful today? Have our expectations changed? That I have answers to. I don't have answers to why is it so, you know, but I do.

Is it more complicated now? Relationships 50 or 100 years ago?

Yes, absolutely.

Why is that?

Why? For a very simple reason. For a long time we live, and we still, in many parts of the world, live in traditional societies where relationships are clearly codified. There are clear rules, there are roles, there are obligations, there's a tight structure from which you can't get out. But it tells you clearly who you are, where you belong, where you rooted, and what's expected of you. And you don't have too much questions about whose career matters more and who's going to wake up to feed the baby and who has a right to demand for sex and what, and everybody, every husband knows exactly what they can ask from their wife, and the wife knows exactly what she should not tell her husband. And children know their place and adults can out interact. All of this was super regulated. You know exactly that on Sunday you go to visit your family and that you have to call your grandma and that. And nobody has. You go to church or you go to any other religious institution where you go to pray, to be with the community, etcetera. And you know what? Nobody needed to explain to you why it's important.

You just went because I said so. And because that's what you do. That's what we do, and that's what we don't do, because what will the neighbors say? And there is a community that looks over you all the time, and the streets are narrow like that, and everybody knows what's going on in the neighbor's house right now. Your best friends could be breaking up and you didn't even see it coming. Nobody knows what goes on in the neighbor's house. That's where should we begin? Became, I think, so powerful. It gave you back a sense of what actually goes on in other people's lives, so that you're not alone wondering, am I the only one who's going through all of this? This tight structure of our society has moved into what we call today network societies. Network societies is not tight knots, it's loose ends. It's loose threads with commitment that can be revoked at any moment. That's why your women are constantly writing to you. I thought we had something, and the next day he disappears. I thought we had developed a sense of trust. You know, where is the care? Where is the loyalty?

Where is the continuity? All these things that now are not just set, fixed, they all have to be negotiated. Everything that was a rule is now a negotiation, a conversation. Who's going to go to work? Are we going to move you to the west coast or are you going to move with me to the east coast? Are we going to have children? Are we ready to have children? How many children? Do we even want children? You know, on and on and on. Am I happy at work? Oh, I could do better. Should I stay a few more months? Should I leave? Is this what I really want to do? Is this who I really am?

Is this my passion?

Is this my passion? You know, this identity quest? The whole time, is this who I want to be? Is this? And all of these questions are rather new questions. Why? Because in the past or in other parts of the world today, you kind of know who you are. Seriously. You're the son of somebody. Even you're the son of somebody. It starts with that, Ben, you know, and you probably will even do what your father has done if you are a man. And maybe not too much of any of the. Outside the house, if you are a woman, or you may begin a charting course of working outside the house. And all of these things are very, very normative.

And now it's different.

We don't have any of that at this moment. We basically, I call it the identity economy. We spend our time trying to figure out who am I? We have an enormous industry of self help, you know, with this belief that we are self help, self made, that we can have selfies, that we do self care. It's this self, self, self that is so focused, such the center of everything, and so fragile. The freaking self has never been more fragile. We are constantly making sure that it doesn't get overwhelmed, that it doesn't get triggered, that it doesn't get violated, that it doesn't get shattered because it stands there alone like the little Dutchman with his finger trying to hold back the dike, you know? And that is the times I think we are in at this moment. And there, that's the waters I think you swim in.

Sure. Well, I think that's where suffering, inner suffering comes from. On the surface is when you obsessively think about yourself, when you're obsessively self centered, thinking all the time, trying to.

Improve yourself and feeling not good enough.

Right?

I think it's the combination comparing. Now, I don't know that people didn't compare themselves when they all went to and stood on the steps of the church on a Sunday morning. I think communities, people have always compared themselves, but there was much. There was a different type of social control, the one that we have on social media today. Social control has always existed. So suffering is part of life. Community and not being alone is what helps us with all our experiences. Definitely with suffering. I look at the disappointments of relationships and the struggles that we have. Why are they so challenging? What is the challenge? What can you do about it? When is it you who can do something? And when do you have to realize the limitations that what you will do will not change another necessarily when it does and when it doesn't? And how does this manifest at work? And at home, you ask me how relationships have changed. I think we've never had more expectations of love and work than we do today. I think we expect today from love and work, many things that we expected before from religion and from community.

We want our relationships to be transformative, transcendent, meaningful, spiritual, purposeful, erotic, passionate. And we want it at home and we want it at work.

How do we get it at work, too?

Oh, because we want work to be purposeful today. We want work to, you know, to give me a sense of identity, of meaning, of self fulfillment, of development. I don't just want to go to work only for the paycheck. I need the paycheck, but I also want the paycheck to be meaningful to me. Work has become an identity economy. It's not just what am I going to do, it's who am I going to be? And, and it parallels, it parallels, you know, what do we talk about at work? Transparency, belonging, authenticity, trust, psychological safety. I mean, when did the entire emotional vocabulary enter the workplace to such a degree that soft skills, what they used to be called, which are emotional and social skills, relational skills, which used to be seen as feminine skills and feminine skills, you can idealize them in principle, but disregard them in reality. And these soft skills have very quickly become the new heart skills. And that's why I'm working in the workplace. It's not because I have changed and I suddenly am interested in work. It's because work has changed and is suddenly interested in what I have been doing for decades.

I love this. I'm going to ask you a question that may be hard to answer. Maybe it's easy, but you've had, you've seen a lot of intimate relationships work and fail over 35 plus years, right?

Yeah.

What's the percentage of people in your mind who are in intimate, long term relationships, marriages or not married, but together, are actually happy most of the time, thriving. Beautiful. I'm sure there's challenges, but, like, they're able to work through them with semi ease. How many relationships in your mind are super happy and thriving after decades of the changes of the times, society, work, family, all the dynamics that happen in life.

So I have two ways of answering yes. The first one is cultural. Your definition of happy and thriving and fulfilled is probably very different than many other cultures where being healthy, having enough to eat, having children, having grandchildren, having good childrenare not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story, or are you looking for a life story?That's good.You understand?Yeah.There are many people have had love stories. There's a whole different story. I never thought for a minute I would live with these people. Take something else. To have a partner in life with whom you're gonna go through the pains, the sufferings, the challengesfight in a way that will not break us, but will kind of be a source of learning and growth and clearing and kind of resetting.Yeah.I think my friend Jay Shetty talked about this in his recent book, where it was about the success of a relationship is in how well you fight.Right.And how. How successful you can fight together.I think so, yeah.And not hurt each other too far beyond're not the right fit for each other. Right. We're not the right match for this type of relationship.Let me show you my cards and let's see how this goes.But I always lacked that emotional courage. Cause I was afraid of hurting people.Right.And I said my priorities. My number one priority is my health. And no woman wants to hear that they're not the number one priority in a relationship.Right.With an intimate partner. Really?Yeah.They don't like that. Most of them, at least. And I said, my number two priority is not you or the relationship. Be there. And no one wants to hear they're not number one or number two.Right.Number two.Exactly. Let's give me a silver.I said, my intimate relationship will my third priority. Now, let me give context, because I need my health to be a top priority. So to have more energy, focus and value to you. And to my second priority, kind of.Foundational thing that allows everything else to be built, relationships and business.And to my second priority, which is my vision, my mission, to serve people. And if you hold me back from my health and I feel unhealthy, I'm not going to be good for you. If you hold me back from my purpose and you try to deter me from that, I'm gonna be resentful, frustrated, like, antsy. But if you are in alignment that these are my top two priorities, you're gonna feel like the number one priority.Well, that's nice.And so it's creating that context and conversation, just setting the stage and just being like can never pull me away from these things unless there's some emergency or whatever. But it can't be this. I don't want you going to the gym. I don't want you working on your mission. I don't want you. I need you here with me more. And I was like, I'm not that guy. Yeah, maybe in ten years that'll change.And I will be, well, what?Right now, I'm not.What was the work you did that allowed you now to ask for what you want and be as clear as that?I needed to heal a lot of my inner child woes.Right.Really? And have a different relationship with my younger psychological self that never got to hear or be validated the way that I needed to validate it, and never got to heal or mend painful memories. So it wasn't until I was able to mend the memories of the past and create new meaning around them.Yeah.And create a sense of connection and an intimate relationship with my painful wounds of repair. That's when I was like, okay, I am safe. I am free. I am peaceful as I am. I don't need to please you to feel loved and accepted and free. And I was able to say, okay, I'm happy, alone, if this relationship doesn't work, but I'm never going to abandon myself again. So that was a big part of it, having that healing journey and doing the therapeutic work on that.You can go, Michael. Stop interviewing me and don't ask me about my partner. But I'm curious to know if you were able to ask her what she wanted, like what her priorities were.Yeah, I asked her, yeah. Really, really early on.Yeah.And she, you know, one of these, this conversation where she asked me about my priorities, she was like, I was like, what do you want? What's your vision and what's your vision for intimate relationship, you know, a committed relationship, long term? I've said this on the show before, a few times, but I was like, you know, she said, well, I want to be married and have kids, and that's something that I want and I value. I said, okay, cool. I value that as well. But I can't tell you that in the first couple of weeks that that's going to happen with us. So I need to feel safe. I need to feel time, a foundation. So if you're cool with that, knowing.That maybe it's a maybe. Yeah.But everything has to work out for me to feel like a yes. I can't commit right now.What do you see is the difference maker for healthy, long lasting love.Yeah.For decades. Versus those that stay married a long time but aren't happy and those that eventually get divorced.I think the statistics are something like 50%.Right?So 50% of all marriages end in divorce. The illusion is, is that the 50% that are left are happy.No, they're not.No, they're not.Maybe 15% or something, maybe.Right. And we don't really know. I mean, like, if you went and polled everybody, you might be even shocked. Part of the deal is the bar's very low. So the bar's something like, we get along.Right?Like, that's it. I've got t shirts I get along with. What's it really all about? If that's the struggle, if the struggle is to get along, like I said, that's a very low bar.You get along with lots of people.Right. Really what I've found to be the case, and I'm not looking at, like, particular people, for example. Right. But I'm going to look at, like, what keeps a human being involved in anything. Right? So, like, why does somebody like. So I love to play guitar. Why? Because I engage with that thing. I'm curious about that thing. I want to get better at that thing. I like how it feels when I accomplish something in that thing. If you take that in any aspect of your life, the same thing holds true. My relationship with my wife is a function of who I am in it, and I need to keep bringing that to it. There's no time when this is a done deal. You know, I have to keep showing up here, not for, like, for longevity, which is, I think, where a lot of people get messed up. People look at the relationship like, well, I can't do this for the rest of your life. The rest of my life. And I'm like, well, you don't have to just do it today. Right. It's like being on a diet. I don't need to be on a diet for three months.I just need to be on it right now.Yeah.And that is moment to moment to moment to moment to moment, because that's really all you have. But so what I do notice is that the areas of life where you are flourishing most, there is some profound relationship you have between what you say and what you do. There's a profundity at play. So if you look at any area, you're successful. You are literally doing what you said you would do, even when. What? I don't feel like it. Yeah, right. Marriage is the same. Marriage is the same marriage. And I talk about this in the book. I say, especially in the western world, but you look at, and I'm using marriage as kind of a model, but applies to all relationships. But in a marriage, there's a on that, there really was no look down the road. There was no, like, what's this about? You know? It's just. It was all very much riding that particular roller coaster, living in the moment.Of fun and adventure.The problem was nothing was getting created. There was no. This is what we are up to.There's no vision coming to life, right?But that was in a very personal level. Like, there was no. There was no thought in my head, like, so where does this go? You know? It was just like, well, let's see. You know, to share things that are sad or scary or whatever might be coming up for me. So I appreciate it and I receive it, man. Yeah. My final question for you, and again, I want to make sure people get the book. We'll have it all linked up. But my final question, Gary, is what's your definition of greatness?Oh, that's a brilliant question. Right. So it's the triumph of the human spirit. It's the opportunity for somebody to go beyond whatever that might be for you.Right?And sometimes it's a simple thing, like going beyond some old hurt or pain, but sometimes it's going beyond a situation or circumstance.I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great one.

are not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story, or are you looking for a life story?

That's good.

You understand?

Yeah.

There are many people have had love stories. There's a whole different story. I never thought for a minute I would live with these people. Take something else. To have a partner in life with whom you're gonna go through the pains, the sufferings, the challengesfight in a way that will not break us, but will kind of be a source of learning and growth and clearing and kind of resetting.Yeah.I think my friend Jay Shetty talked about this in his recent book, where it was about the success of a relationship is in how well you fight.Right.And how. How successful you can fight together.I think so, yeah.And not hurt each other too far beyond're not the right fit for each other. Right. We're not the right match for this type of relationship.Let me show you my cards and let's see how this goes.But I always lacked that emotional courage. Cause I was afraid of hurting people.Right.And I said my priorities. My number one priority is my health. And no woman wants to hear that they're not the number one priority in a relationship.Right.With an intimate partner. Really?Yeah.They don't like that. Most of them, at least. And I said, my number two priority is not you or the relationship. Be there. And no one wants to hear they're not number one or number two.Right.Number two.Exactly. Let's give me a silver.I said, my intimate relationship will my third priority. Now, let me give context, because I need my health to be a top priority. So to have more energy, focus and value to you. And to my second priority, kind of.Foundational thing that allows everything else to be built, relationships and business.And to my second priority, which is my vision, my mission, to serve people. And if you hold me back from my health and I feel unhealthy, I'm not going to be good for you. If you hold me back from my purpose and you try to deter me from that, I'm gonna be resentful, frustrated, like, antsy. But if you are in alignment that these are my top two priorities, you're gonna feel like the number one priority.Well, that's nice.And so it's creating that context and conversation, just setting the stage and just being like can never pull me away from these things unless there's some emergency or whatever. But it can't be this. I don't want you going to the gym. I don't want you working on your mission. I don't want you. I need you here with me more. And I was like, I'm not that guy. Yeah, maybe in ten years that'll change.And I will be, well, what?Right now, I'm not.What was the work you did that allowed you now to ask for what you want and be as clear as that?I needed to heal a lot of my inner child woes.Right.Really? And have a different relationship with my younger psychological self that never got to hear or be validated the way that I needed to validate it, and never got to heal or mend painful memories. So it wasn't until I was able to mend the memories of the past and create new meaning around them.Yeah.And create a sense of connection and an intimate relationship with my painful wounds of repair. That's when I was like, okay, I am safe. I am free. I am peaceful as I am. I don't need to please you to feel loved and accepted and free. And I was able to say, okay, I'm happy, alone, if this relationship doesn't work, but I'm never going to abandon myself again. So that was a big part of it, having that healing journey and doing the therapeutic work on that.You can go, Michael. Stop interviewing me and don't ask me about my partner. But I'm curious to know if you were able to ask her what she wanted, like what her priorities were.Yeah, I asked her, yeah. Really, really early on.Yeah.And she, you know, one of these, this conversation where she asked me about my priorities, she was like, I was like, what do you want? What's your vision and what's your vision for intimate relationship, you know, a committed relationship, long term? I've said this on the show before, a few times, but I was like, you know, she said, well, I want to be married and have kids, and that's something that I want and I value. I said, okay, cool. I value that as well. But I can't tell you that in the first couple of weeks that that's going to happen with us. So I need to feel safe. I need to feel time, a foundation. So if you're cool with that, knowing.That maybe it's a maybe. Yeah.But everything has to work out for me to feel like a yes. I can't commit right now.What do you see is the difference maker for healthy, long lasting love.Yeah.For decades. Versus those that stay married a long time but aren't happy and those that eventually get divorced.I think the statistics are something like 50%.Right?So 50% of all marriages end in divorce. The illusion is, is that the 50% that are left are happy.No, they're not.No, they're not.Maybe 15% or something, maybe.Right. And we don't really know. I mean, like, if you went and polled everybody, you might be even shocked. Part of the deal is the bar's very low. So the bar's something like, we get along.Right?Like, that's it. I've got t shirts I get along with. What's it really all about? If that's the struggle, if the struggle is to get along, like I said, that's a very low bar.You get along with lots of people.Right. Really what I've found to be the case, and I'm not looking at, like, particular people, for example. Right. But I'm going to look at, like, what keeps a human being involved in anything. Right? So, like, why does somebody like. So I love to play guitar. Why? Because I engage with that thing. I'm curious about that thing. I want to get better at that thing. I like how it feels when I accomplish something in that thing. If you take that in any aspect of your life, the same thing holds true. My relationship with my wife is a function of who I am in it, and I need to keep bringing that to it. There's no time when this is a done deal. You know, I have to keep showing up here, not for, like, for longevity, which is, I think, where a lot of people get messed up. People look at the relationship like, well, I can't do this for the rest of your life. The rest of my life. And I'm like, well, you don't have to just do it today. Right. It's like being on a diet. I don't need to be on a diet for three months.I just need to be on it right now.Yeah.And that is moment to moment to moment to moment to moment, because that's really all you have. But so what I do notice is that the areas of life where you are flourishing most, there is some profound relationship you have between what you say and what you do. There's a profundity at play. So if you look at any area, you're successful. You are literally doing what you said you would do, even when. What? I don't feel like it. Yeah, right. Marriage is the same. Marriage is the same marriage. And I talk about this in the book. I say, especially in the western world, but you look at, and I'm using marriage as kind of a model, but applies to all relationships. But in a marriage, there's a on that, there really was no look down the road. There was no, like, what's this about? You know? It's just. It was all very much riding that particular roller coaster, living in the moment.Of fun and adventure.The problem was nothing was getting created. There was no. This is what we are up to.There's no vision coming to life, right?But that was in a very personal level. Like, there was no. There was no thought in my head, like, so where does this go? You know? It was just like, well, let's see. You know, to share things that are sad or scary or whatever might be coming up for me. So I appreciate it and I receive it, man. Yeah. My final question for you, and again, I want to make sure people get the book. We'll have it all linked up. But my final question, Gary, is what's your definition of greatness?Oh, that's a brilliant question. Right. So it's the triumph of the human spirit. It's the opportunity for somebody to go beyond whatever that might be for you.Right?And sometimes it's a simple thing, like going beyond some old hurt or pain, but sometimes it's going beyond a situation or circumstance.I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great one.

fight in a way that will not break us, but will kind of be a source of learning and growth and clearing and kind of resetting.

Yeah.

I think my friend Jay Shetty talked about this in his recent book, where it was about the success of a relationship is in how well you fight.

Right.

And how. How successful you can fight together.

I think so, yeah.

And not hurt each other too far beyond're not the right fit for each other. Right. We're not the right match for this type of relationship.Let me show you my cards and let's see how this goes.But I always lacked that emotional courage. Cause I was afraid of hurting people.Right.And I said my priorities. My number one priority is my health. And no woman wants to hear that they're not the number one priority in a relationship.Right.With an intimate partner. Really?Yeah.They don't like that. Most of them, at least. And I said, my number two priority is not you or the relationship. Be there. And no one wants to hear they're not number one or number two.Right.Number two.Exactly. Let's give me a silver.I said, my intimate relationship will my third priority. Now, let me give context, because I need my health to be a top priority. So to have more energy, focus and value to you. And to my second priority, kind of.Foundational thing that allows everything else to be built, relationships and business.And to my second priority, which is my vision, my mission, to serve people. And if you hold me back from my health and I feel unhealthy, I'm not going to be good for you. If you hold me back from my purpose and you try to deter me from that, I'm gonna be resentful, frustrated, like, antsy. But if you are in alignment that these are my top two priorities, you're gonna feel like the number one priority.Well, that's nice.And so it's creating that context and conversation, just setting the stage and just being like can never pull me away from these things unless there's some emergency or whatever. But it can't be this. I don't want you going to the gym. I don't want you working on your mission. I don't want you. I need you here with me more. And I was like, I'm not that guy. Yeah, maybe in ten years that'll change.And I will be, well, what?Right now, I'm not.What was the work you did that allowed you now to ask for what you want and be as clear as that?I needed to heal a lot of my inner child woes.Right.Really? And have a different relationship with my younger psychological self that never got to hear or be validated the way that I needed to validate it, and never got to heal or mend painful memories. So it wasn't until I was able to mend the memories of the past and create new meaning around them.Yeah.And create a sense of connection and an intimate relationship with my painful wounds of repair. That's when I was like, okay, I am safe. I am free. I am peaceful as I am. I don't need to please you to feel loved and accepted and free. And I was able to say, okay, I'm happy, alone, if this relationship doesn't work, but I'm never going to abandon myself again. So that was a big part of it, having that healing journey and doing the therapeutic work on that.You can go, Michael. Stop interviewing me and don't ask me about my partner. But I'm curious to know if you were able to ask her what she wanted, like what her priorities were.Yeah, I asked her, yeah. Really, really early on.Yeah.And she, you know, one of these, this conversation where she asked me about my priorities, she was like, I was like, what do you want? What's your vision and what's your vision for intimate relationship, you know, a committed relationship, long term? I've said this on the show before, a few times, but I was like, you know, she said, well, I want to be married and have kids, and that's something that I want and I value. I said, okay, cool. I value that as well. But I can't tell you that in the first couple of weeks that that's going to happen with us. So I need to feel safe. I need to feel time, a foundation. So if you're cool with that, knowing.That maybe it's a maybe. Yeah.But everything has to work out for me to feel like a yes. I can't commit right now.What do you see is the difference maker for healthy, long lasting love.Yeah.For decades. Versus those that stay married a long time but aren't happy and those that eventually get divorced.I think the statistics are something like 50%.Right?So 50% of all marriages end in divorce. The illusion is, is that the 50% that are left are happy.No, they're not.No, they're not.Maybe 15% or something, maybe.Right. And we don't really know. I mean, like, if you went and polled everybody, you might be even shocked. Part of the deal is the bar's very low. So the bar's something like, we get along.Right?Like, that's it. I've got t shirts I get along with. What's it really all about? If that's the struggle, if the struggle is to get along, like I said, that's a very low bar.You get along with lots of people.Right. Really what I've found to be the case, and I'm not looking at, like, particular people, for example. Right. But I'm going to look at, like, what keeps a human being involved in anything. Right? So, like, why does somebody like. So I love to play guitar. Why? Because I engage with that thing. I'm curious about that thing. I want to get better at that thing. I like how it feels when I accomplish something in that thing. If you take that in any aspect of your life, the same thing holds true. My relationship with my wife is a function of who I am in it, and I need to keep bringing that to it. There's no time when this is a done deal. You know, I have to keep showing up here, not for, like, for longevity, which is, I think, where a lot of people get messed up. People look at the relationship like, well, I can't do this for the rest of your life. The rest of my life. And I'm like, well, you don't have to just do it today. Right. It's like being on a diet. I don't need to be on a diet for three months.I just need to be on it right now.Yeah.And that is moment to moment to moment to moment to moment, because that's really all you have. But so what I do notice is that the areas of life where you are flourishing most, there is some profound relationship you have between what you say and what you do. There's a profundity at play. So if you look at any area, you're successful. You are literally doing what you said you would do, even when. What? I don't feel like it. Yeah, right. Marriage is the same. Marriage is the same marriage. And I talk about this in the book. I say, especially in the western world, but you look at, and I'm using marriage as kind of a model, but applies to all relationships. But in a marriage, there's a on that, there really was no look down the road. There was no, like, what's this about? You know? It's just. It was all very much riding that particular roller coaster, living in the moment.Of fun and adventure.The problem was nothing was getting created. There was no. This is what we are up to.There's no vision coming to life, right?But that was in a very personal level. Like, there was no. There was no thought in my head, like, so where does this go? You know? It was just like, well, let's see. You know, to share things that are sad or scary or whatever might be coming up for me. So I appreciate it and I receive it, man. Yeah. My final question for you, and again, I want to make sure people get the book. We'll have it all linked up. But my final question, Gary, is what's your definition of greatness?Oh, that's a brilliant question. Right. So it's the triumph of the human spirit. It's the opportunity for somebody to go beyond whatever that might be for you.Right?And sometimes it's a simple thing, like going beyond some old hurt or pain, but sometimes it's going beyond a situation or circumstance.I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great one.

're not the right fit for each other. Right. We're not the right match for this type of relationship.

Let me show you my cards and let's see how this goes.

But I always lacked that emotional courage. Cause I was afraid of hurting people.

Right.

And I said my priorities. My number one priority is my health. And no woman wants to hear that they're not the number one priority in a relationship.

Right.

With an intimate partner. Really?

Yeah.

They don't like that. Most of them, at least. And I said, my number two priority is not you or the relationship. Be there. And no one wants to hear they're not number one or number two.

Right.

Number two.

Exactly. Let's give me a silver.

I said, my intimate relationship will my third priority. Now, let me give context, because I need my health to be a top priority. So to have more energy, focus and value to you. And to my second priority, kind of.

Foundational thing that allows everything else to be built, relationships and business.

And to my second priority, which is my vision, my mission, to serve people. And if you hold me back from my health and I feel unhealthy, I'm not going to be good for you. If you hold me back from my purpose and you try to deter me from that, I'm gonna be resentful, frustrated, like, antsy. But if you are in alignment that these are my top two priorities, you're gonna feel like the number one priority.

Well, that's nice.

And so it's creating that context and conversation, just setting the stage and just being like can never pull me away from these things unless there's some emergency or whatever. But it can't be this. I don't want you going to the gym. I don't want you working on your mission. I don't want you. I need you here with me more. And I was like, I'm not that guy. Yeah, maybe in ten years that'll change.

And I will be, well, what?

Right now, I'm not.

What was the work you did that allowed you now to ask for what you want and be as clear as that?

I needed to heal a lot of my inner child woes.

Right.

Really? And have a different relationship with my younger psychological self that never got to hear or be validated the way that I needed to validate it, and never got to heal or mend painful memories. So it wasn't until I was able to mend the memories of the past and create new meaning around them.

Yeah.

And create a sense of connection and an intimate relationship with my painful wounds of repair. That's when I was like, okay, I am safe. I am free. I am peaceful as I am. I don't need to please you to feel loved and accepted and free. And I was able to say, okay, I'm happy, alone, if this relationship doesn't work, but I'm never going to abandon myself again. So that was a big part of it, having that healing journey and doing the therapeutic work on that.

You can go, Michael. Stop interviewing me and don't ask me about my partner. But I'm curious to know if you were able to ask her what she wanted, like what her priorities were.

Yeah, I asked her, yeah. Really, really early on.

Yeah.

And she, you know, one of these, this conversation where she asked me about my priorities, she was like, I was like, what do you want? What's your vision and what's your vision for intimate relationship, you know, a committed relationship, long term? I've said this on the show before, a few times, but I was like, you know, she said, well, I want to be married and have kids, and that's something that I want and I value. I said, okay, cool. I value that as well. But I can't tell you that in the first couple of weeks that that's going to happen with us. So I need to feel safe. I need to feel time, a foundation. So if you're cool with that, knowing.

That maybe it's a maybe. Yeah.

But everything has to work out for me to feel like a yes. I can't commit right now.

What do you see is the difference maker for healthy, long lasting love.

Yeah.

For decades. Versus those that stay married a long time but aren't happy and those that eventually get divorced.

I think the statistics are something like 50%.

Right?

So 50% of all marriages end in divorce. The illusion is, is that the 50% that are left are happy.

No, they're not.

No, they're not.

Maybe 15% or something, maybe.

Right. And we don't really know. I mean, like, if you went and polled everybody, you might be even shocked. Part of the deal is the bar's very low. So the bar's something like, we get along.

Right?

Like, that's it. I've got t shirts I get along with. What's it really all about? If that's the struggle, if the struggle is to get along, like I said, that's a very low bar.

You get along with lots of people.

Right. Really what I've found to be the case, and I'm not looking at, like, particular people, for example. Right. But I'm going to look at, like, what keeps a human being involved in anything. Right? So, like, why does somebody like. So I love to play guitar. Why? Because I engage with that thing. I'm curious about that thing. I want to get better at that thing. I like how it feels when I accomplish something in that thing. If you take that in any aspect of your life, the same thing holds true. My relationship with my wife is a function of who I am in it, and I need to keep bringing that to it. There's no time when this is a done deal. You know, I have to keep showing up here, not for, like, for longevity, which is, I think, where a lot of people get messed up. People look at the relationship like, well, I can't do this for the rest of your life. The rest of my life. And I'm like, well, you don't have to just do it today. Right. It's like being on a diet. I don't need to be on a diet for three months.

I just need to be on it right now.

Yeah.

And that is moment to moment to moment to moment to moment, because that's really all you have. But so what I do notice is that the areas of life where you are flourishing most, there is some profound relationship you have between what you say and what you do. There's a profundity at play. So if you look at any area, you're successful. You are literally doing what you said you would do, even when. What? I don't feel like it. Yeah, right. Marriage is the same. Marriage is the same marriage. And I talk about this in the book. I say, especially in the western world, but you look at, and I'm using marriage as kind of a model, but applies to all relationships. But in a marriage, there's a on that, there really was no look down the road. There was no, like, what's this about? You know? It's just. It was all very much riding that particular roller coaster, living in the moment.Of fun and adventure.The problem was nothing was getting created. There was no. This is what we are up to.There's no vision coming to life, right?But that was in a very personal level. Like, there was no. There was no thought in my head, like, so where does this go? You know? It was just like, well, let's see. You know, to share things that are sad or scary or whatever might be coming up for me. So I appreciate it and I receive it, man. Yeah. My final question for you, and again, I want to make sure people get the book. We'll have it all linked up. But my final question, Gary, is what's your definition of greatness?Oh, that's a brilliant question. Right. So it's the triumph of the human spirit. It's the opportunity for somebody to go beyond whatever that might be for you.Right?And sometimes it's a simple thing, like going beyond some old hurt or pain, but sometimes it's going beyond a situation or circumstance.I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great one.

on that, there really was no look down the road. There was no, like, what's this about? You know? It's just. It was all very much riding that particular roller coaster, living in the moment.

Of fun and adventure.

The problem was nothing was getting created. There was no. This is what we are up to.

There's no vision coming to life, right?

But that was in a very personal level. Like, there was no. There was no thought in my head, like, so where does this go? You know? It was just like, well, let's see. You know, to share things that are sad or scary or whatever might be coming up for me. So I appreciate it and I receive it, man. Yeah. My final question for you, and again, I want to make sure people get the book. We'll have it all linked up. But my final question, Gary, is what's your definition of greatness?Oh, that's a brilliant question. Right. So it's the triumph of the human spirit. It's the opportunity for somebody to go beyond whatever that might be for you.Right?And sometimes it's a simple thing, like going beyond some old hurt or pain, but sometimes it's going beyond a situation or circumstance.I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great one.

to share things that are sad or scary or whatever might be coming up for me. So I appreciate it and I receive it, man. Yeah. My final question for you, and again, I want to make sure people get the book. We'll have it all linked up. But my final question, Gary, is what's your definition of greatness?

Oh, that's a brilliant question. Right. So it's the triumph of the human spirit. It's the opportunity for somebody to go beyond whatever that might be for you.

Right?

And sometimes it's a simple thing, like going beyond some old hurt or pain, but sometimes it's going beyond a situation or circumstance.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great one.