Trauma is negative energy that you carry. The more you release it, the more you you become. But there is a way to release it. I have a very, very special guest today. MD, psychiatrist, therapist, speaker, and trauma specialist, and author of a newly released memoir, to beloved Frank Anderson.

Doctor Frank Anderson.

Good to see you. Like a 32 is when my life fell apart. I was just too disconnected. Like, wow, Frank, you were so far from you. When we make decisions from parts of us that are trying to protect us or please others, or please others, and a lot of that is fear of loss, of connection in here, our truth, our authenticity, is silently screaming inside.

What would you say is the number one emotion that blocks us from peace, harmony, and ultimate happiness?

Shame. I think it's shame. Shame is so toxic, and shame is usually the result of relational trauma.

What happens if we sweep it under the rug? We run away from it. What happens to everyone if we do that?

I'll tell you what happened to me. We'll start there.

Welcome back, everyone, to the school of greatness. We have the inspiring Frank Anderson in the house, who is a Harvard trained psychiatrist, a renowned trauma expert, and an expert on IFS and CPTSD, among many other things around how to heal trauma. And I'm so excited that you're here. I saw this stat online that said 70% of adults in the US have experienced some type of traumatic event at least once in their life.

That's right.

That is, you know, a majority of the US population, and I'm assuming that's similar around the world.

Yeah.

And I'm curious, how do we, you know, to start it off, a big question. How do we really face the things we've been running away from our entire lives so that we can integrate these traumatic moments, memories, or events in our life that have caused us to run away from them or chase things to fill an empty hole or traumatic experience in our life? How do we really start to turn around and face these moments that are so crippling and create so much fear and stress within us?

Yeah.

How does that process even begin?

What it typically begins for people when their life falls apart.

Yes.

Sorry to say that when there's a massive breakdown. Right. People do not come to therapy because they're like, I have unresolved childhood trauma. Nobody goes. It's because I'm drinking too much. My wife is, you know, divorcing me. I've had an affair. I'm hitting my kids. Like, people start real. Like, they gotta hit their bottom to say, okay, it's time to do something different. Right? So that's the way most people get into this. I'm trying to bring people in in a different way. Like, hey, we all have some form of trauma. Like, and you know the word trauma is activating for people, right? So I don't have trauma. Like in the general public, I don't have trauma, you know, not me. I'm not weak. That's not me. So there's this avoidance of the word. There's an avoidance of dealing with the pain. Move forward, you know, why go back? What's the point? So I'm trying to teach people, educate people. Like, maybe you can do a little preventative medicine here. Like what if we looked at this before it became a disaster in your life?

That's powerful. And I can relate to that because, I don't know. It was about eleven years ago I finally started getting into opening up and facing the parts of me that were causing shame, resentment, anger, fear, stress, overwhelm and breakdown in my life. And it was a storm of multiple events from a breakdown in an intimate relationship, business relationship, and then me taking it out on the basketball court with my anger on others who were just like, you know, random bystanders to where a friend was like, hey, I don't like the way you're showing up. And it allowed me to look in the mirror and say, man, all these breakdowns, the common denominator is me.

Right?

You know, but I didn't want to acknowledge it. I wanted to blame everyone else. I wanted to say, they don't understand me, they don't get me. They're taking advantage of me, they're abusing me. That's right. Whatever it might be, it's pointing the blame at others as opposed to looking within. And when I had these different events that caused me multiple breakdowns and someone confronting me that I cared about, I was like, oh, maybe I should take a look at myself.

Yes.

And that started the journey over the last eleven years of healing.

That's right.

And healing is a journey. It's not like it was overnight. And I'm like, I'm healed and I'm better.

That's right.

But allowed me to start diving into these different therapeutic experiences that have given me harmony and peace and wholeness back.

Yeah.

And I want, and I know this has been your mission for a long time to help people heal from traumas. And one of the things is I know a lot of people that say I had great childhoods. My parents were great, beautiful, loving families and relationships. And maybe they didn't have big t traumas, but they had little t traumas that caused them to be avoidant, resentful, get into situations where they allow their boundaries to be crossed over and over again. They become doormats, things like that. So what is the difference between big t trauma, little t trauma, and should we be thinking about addressing both of them?

100%. It's a great shift that's happening in culture and society. And, you know, friends of ours, mutual friend Nicole Lapera is a perfect person. That's like, hey, maybe when you're ignored, hey, maybe when you're yelled at, that can have an impact, too, right? She's a perfect person. That's bringing that awareness. For people who know about the ACE studies, the adverse childhood experiences study, big study here in California, and they looked at kids that were growing up in alcoholic families, kids that had divorces. There was physical or verbal abuse in there, and all of the problems that these kids had growing up and all the cost, bigger deal to the medical community. Like, oh, that's when everybody started looking. So how many things are.

What is that? What is that called a ace?

The Ace study, adverse childhood experiences.

And how many. How many, I guess, points are there in that?

Or, like, I don't remember. There's, like, they have a questionnaire, and there's a scale, rating scale. I think they're nine points, but I'm not, like, 90.

If you had, like, your parents were divorced.

Yeah.

If you had sexual abuse, if you were yelled at, if you were or.

Whatever, witnessed something, you witnessed something traumatic. Yeah. That's another thing.

I remember someone reading this off to me, and I was like, I think I've experienced every one of those things.

Right?

And I was like, does that just mean I'm messed up for life?

No. If everybody took the scale, everybody would have a lot of them. This is the thing that. This is what I was saying earlier. People get weirded out by the word trauma. I'm using Louis overwhelming life experience.

Yes.

It's more palatable for people. I'm like, have you ever had an overwhelming life experience? Well, yeah, like, of course. Bullied on the playground or any shamed at so and so, or failing in school or not making the football team, whatever it is. So people relate to that word, overwhelming life experience differently than some people are adverse to the word trauma. Cause I'm not weak.

Right. They're triggered by trauma.

Exactly. That's exactly right. So I'm trying to normalize that in the ways that I can and say, look, these things have an effect on us, and we naturally have ways to try to protect ourselves. They might not be the most effective, but give yourselves a break for the ways you're trying to protect yourself or push the bad stuff away. I do this like cavemen. We're wired, like, in the day. Touch the fire. The fire hurts. Stay away from the fire. You know, it's like that. So we're just automatically programmed to stay away from pain. So bringing people to the pain, they're like, why would I do that? Right? So it is counterintuitive. I was talking to somebody the other day. It's like we do the u turn. Go inside, and you're going against the current, because the current is, stay away. Push it away. Get rid of it. Move forward.

Sweep it under the rug.

Yeah. And that's what our natural instinct is.

What happens if we resist looking at the overwhelming life experiences or traumas in our life and we sweep it under the rug? We run away from it. Happens to everyone if we do that.

I'll tell you what happened to me. We'll start there. Cause I was in therapy, as you know, starting at six years old.

Your parents forced you to do this, right?

As a kid? You don't. You know, the book opens, like, you're not going to school today, Frankie. I was like, why? We're going to a hospital. For what? I'm not sick, you know? And I went downtown for psych testing because I got caught my cousin's basement playing with her Barbie playhouse. This was back in the day when being gay was a total disorder, right? So my parents. Well intended, by the way. Oh, we have to make Frankie normal. They sent me to therapy for six years as a kid because I got caught playing. I thought the Barbie playhouse was cool. The toilet, the little furniture. I was like a kid. I didn't know. I wasn't, like, exploring. I was exploring. And at the time, it was a problem. I was in therapy for a long time. Learned how to do boy things, how to play with boy toys, how to act like a boy, like, do baseball. I did all this kind of stuff. And so I learned. I was taught to suppress, right? I was taught to suppress. What I ended up doing was marrying a woman, which is what you're supposed to do as a man, right?

And so it was a kind of a mess. Like a 32 is when my life fell apart. Like, you talked about yours, right?

When you got married, was there something inside of you? When you're, like, walking down the aisle, or I guess you're not walking down, but when you're about to get married. Is there something inside of you that's saying, like, I don't think this feels right? Or were you like, I'm excited and this is gonna be my future forever?

I would like to. So here's what it was like, actually, for me, was like, this is what you're supposed to be. This is what you're supposed to do. I was doing the right thing. I didn't even know what love was. I never felt in love in my life. I didn't even know that I was missing, like, I didn't know I was missing something. I was like, this is what everybody else is doing. We were friends.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I really liked her as a friend, but I didn't even understand what love was in that way. So I just did the right thing. I did what everybody wanted me to do. Everybody seemed happy and I liked her. You know what I mean? You got along. I got along and, you know, here's the thing, honestly, maybe not every gay guy could do this. I could have sex with a woman. It felt pleasurable, like it was physically pleasurable. I had an orgasm. Like, I could do that. So there wasn't even that. That was like, frank, this is a problem here. Do you know what I mean? Everybody's got their orientation on a spectrum, right? So I wasn't like, walking, receiving her at the end of the aisle, being like, this is a problem.

Spreading it.

Stop this. I was just too disconnected. I feel sad about that now. Like, wow, Frank, you were so far from you. Look what you did, you know? Look what you were able to do. So disconnected, you know?

So that was what is what happens in someone's life when they make decisions out of disconnection to please parents, society, certain rules or standards versus being fully and wholly who they are and meant to be. What happens?

Yeah, the difference. It's a great question. It's a great question because the difference when we make decisions from parts of us that are trying to protect us or please others or please others. And a lot of that is fear of loss of connection. I'm going to do this because this is what I can see. This is what you want from me. And if I give you what you want from me, then I won't lose you. A lot of it is right. A lot of it is fear of loss.

But you lose yourself.

You lose yourself or parts of yourself you never had yourself. See, this is what happens with kids when parents are yelling or screaming or drunk or whatever it is ignoring you. You as a child have to choose them over you to survive. To survive, you have to choose them over you. Right. So you learn you're the last one that's important.

Yeah.

Okay. You're relating to that on some level.

I think a lot of people relate to that.

Yeah, we do. That's what happens. So we're kind of programmed that way. And so we make these decisions in a disconnected way. Most of us do. And then it falls apart because this in here, our truth, our authenticity is screaming, silently screaming inside. Cause we're not living an authentic life.

How do you, you know, if someone's watching or listening? You're saying, you know, I love my parents and I love my family. And, you know, the family that I grew up with. Obviously, everyone's a little dysfunctional.

Yes.

But they don't support my decision of whatever, of me choosing to love this person. They don't support my decision of pursuing a career that I love. It's against their christian religion or something. Religion for me to want to fully step into who I believe I'm supposed to be, whether I'm right or wrong about it. But it's what I fully believe feels right to me. How do you have the courage to be who you want to be without disappointing, letting down and disconnecting with your parents, family and community?

It just happened to me recently with my mom. I'll tell you about this a little bit later in our discussion together. We have a hard time with the. And of things. We have a really hard time with. An and like, can I be myself and also love you? Can I be myself and tolerate your feelings of disappointment? Okay, so we kids don't do. And. Cause they don't have the psychological capacity.

Or the emotional regulation.

You can't do it. So adults have a really hard time doing that. So do parents, you know.

Cause they never learned how to do it.

They never learned how to do it. So this and is really complicated.

Kind of black or white. You either live by the standards or the rules or the code that I live by.

That's exactly right.

Or I don't know how to be with you.

Right. And I have to. I have to truly, like, love, respect myself enough to choose me over disappointing you. That is not easy to do. I'll tell you if. I'll tell you a story recently. So my mom. There's a lot in there about both my parents. You don't. You know, my dad was physically and verbally abusive to me. My mom was kind of the passive bystander. Right. You need that combination in order for it to happen. And she won't read the book. She's like, I can't read this book.

Too traumatizing.

It's too traumatizing. You're defaming the family. My father passed away, and you know you're destroying his. So I said to her, this was last week when I was in Chicago filming something. I said, mom, is it possible for you to love him and acknowledge that I was hurt growing up? I said, if you can't, that's okay. Okay, I can. Now. I actually love my father, and he really hurt me for things that were more about him than they were about me. And what I said, louis, was, I mean, this is raw. Like, right? Like, do we ever stop healing? No. Like, this was last week. I'm like, mom, I chose you my whole childhood. Cause I needed to. When I came out at 32, that was the first time I chose myself over you.

Wow.

And I'm doing it again. I'm sorry. I'm gonna tell my story. This is my truth. And if I lose you over that, I'm going to take that risk. I hope I don't, because I love you. I could love you and know what happens, and I hope you can too. And it was a big moment for us. And she rose to the occasion. I tell you, she was 84 years old. God love her. She's like, I love you. Yes, you were hurt, and I'm sorry I didn't protect you.

Wow. My gosh.

I swear to God, it's such a gift.

That's healing.

It was hugely healing. It was hugely healing for me. It's like, I did never expected that. I had a moment with my dad at the end of his life, which was hugely healing. And then I had this, like, last week with her, and I was like, right before the book comes out, and she's like, I'm going to read the book. Okay, mom. So she was able to, because of my capacity to show up, helped her capacity to join me.

Yeah. And it sounds like I'm assuming you didn't come from a defensive, upset way of communicating. You came from a courageous, loving appreciation I care about. I'm grateful for these things and an understanding of, you know, someone who is my heroes, my parents, essentially, I can love them and be frustrated and hurt by the things that they didn't know what they were doing. Also, they didn't have the tools or the skill sets to be able to teach. Cause you were able to have empathy and step into their shoes from their generation, what they knew and what they lacked, knowing as well.

That was part of the healing journey for me, was losing my anger. I carried anger for my dad for so many years. Anger hated him. Hated him. And I got to the point of, like, real, true acceptance. Like, when you release the energy, trauma is like, negative energy that you carry. It's a negative interaction, and you carry the negative energy as a result of that. The more you release it, the more you, you become. Right. The more you release energy that's not yours, the more you, you become. It enabled me to kind of, like, have compassion for him. Like, that was you.

Yes, you.

That was your struggle. It wasn't about me. You know, I was affected by it, and I was able to kind of really accept him for who he is, as opposed to hold on to the hate, because the hate was eaten away at me. Not so much him. He wasn't carrying it. I mean, he was affected by it for sure.

Right.

So to have the healing allows you to hold the other person for who they are more with all the parts of them. All the parts of them.

You may not like certain parts and may need to create boundaries and communicate. This doesn't work for me, mom and dad.

That's right.

And so I'm going to create a boundary here. I'm not going to show up to these types of functions or when you scream or get loud, I'm going to remove myself from this situation or whatever it might be.

That's right.

You got to step up for you, but you can still love the other parts of them.

That's right. 100%.

Man, this is fascinating. You know, one of the things that you've been a part of for, I guess, 30 years is the body keeps a score. Research.

Yeah.

And you were talking about energy. Trauma being this energy that's stored inside of us.

Yes, that's right.

Why does the body keep the score? What does that mean? And how do we actually start to release trauma so that the energy gets out of our body and we can become more whole?

Yeah, that's one of my. That's probably separate from bringing trauma healing to the world, which is the big purpose. That's not my purpose. That's somebody else's purpose. Okay. I'm just a messenger for that. So there's the big purpose of bringing trauma healing to the world. My purpose is showing people that healing is possible. Like, you don't have to carry stuff that isn't yours and doesn't belong to you. You don't. And that's. So some therapies do that, and some therapies don't okay, so when you acknowledge, okay, I'm carrying stuff that isn't mine, there is a process, you know, and it was Bessel's book, the body keeps the score. It's not coincidental that it's been on the New York Times best seller list more than any other book, because people resonate with it. During the pandemic, people were sitting home making bread and reading Bessel's book, let me tell you. So really, and because it's resonating with people, the message is real. The way I think about it is trauma is held in the body. Thoughts, feelings, physical sensations. So the thoughts, like, I'm worthless, I'm no good. I'm a piece of crap. Like, we internalize the view of somebody else.

If you're yelled at, you worthless piece of crap, you internalize that I'm a worthless piece of crap. So we internalize thoughts, emotions. Trauma is overwhelming emotions, and our body's the first recipient of it. Like, our body holds that stuff. So the body keeps the score. It's such a great title for Bessel because the body does keep the score, but it's in all these different dimensions. Any sensory modality, you can hear something, you could see it, you can feel it, you can smell it. You know, our body takes it in sensory, and it could trigger you, and it holds. Well, we hold it. We hold it, right, and we hold it, and then we develop all these protections to keep it away. And what I like to teach in this crossover way is you can release it also. There is a way to release it.

How do you release it? Of feelings, thoughts, and emotions that have been stored in your body for decades? How do we let those things go that have been so conditioned as a familiar habit pattern that has become who we are almost. We've owned the identity 100%. How do we change decades of an identity and release.

Yeah, I have what I call now. There's models of psychotherapy that I've kind of integrated, and now in this new world, I'm like, the four t's to trauma healing. So I have the four t's to trauma healing, and I'll explain them to you right now. First, and we talked about the first one. Thank your trauma responses. Right.

The protective responses.

The protective responses. The drinking, the eating, the yelling at your kids, the suicidality, the depression.

Thank you.

The anxiety. Thank you. Like, think about suicide for a minute. Suicide doesn't. Suicidal part doesn't want to die. They want to stop the pain.

Yes. They want to get rid of the pain.

I'm the last responder, they say if it gets bad enough, I can protect us by stopping the pain.

Wow.

Okay. So thank you. Thank your protective responses. Thank your trauma responses. Thank you for trying to help.

Would those be called symptoms or just responses?

Totally. If you're in the mental health field, you call them symptoms.

Got it.

You know, if you're in the coaching world or whatever, you'll call them responses, right? Everybody calls them, but it's the same thing.

Okay.

All the diagnoses are trauma responses. Really?

So thank them, acknowledge them and thank them.

And you know what they say? How do we thank that internally? It's all, this is like meditation.

If someone has a thought, if someone has a thought of like, I want to kill myself today, I'm a worthless piece of crap. No one loves me. Look at all these evidence of how I've been abused and neglected and taken advantage of my entire life. No one will care if I die. What's the process? How do I thank?

Tell me more. It's a curiosity. Tell me more. I know you're doing this for a reason and I know it's helpful. I wanna learn more. It's this active listening when I say thank you. Trauma responses, internal. Internal listening. Yeah. And it can be like, close your eyes and go inside. Which people hate to do, by the way. Like, everybody's on their phones, you know, but you can write, you can sit with yourself for five minutes. Right? It's go inside. And it's weird. People like, I'll do this with trauma survivors, people I work with. Go inside. Okay. They pop out with it. I'm like, that was 2 seconds. Let's do four and get people. If you just stop, there's so much about stopping and listening, which is scary for people, stopping and listening. They're like, I just feel nauseous. Like, okay, let's be with the nausea because parts can show up in any physical sensation. And I'm just hearing, you loser. All right, let's just be with. I hear, let's just be with. You're a loser. Let's just get curious about it. And how long has it been doing this and how is it trying to help?

It says, dad called me a loser. If I call myself a loser, then I can beat him to the punch. Oh, okay. Let it know. You get that. So people, bright people, start going, wow. That's what they do. They're like, wow. So this thing that I've hated is actually helping. Trying to help.

It's trying to help. It's a false sense of helping. Right.

Yeah, they did.

It's doing the best it can do.

Yes, exactly. So that's the first piece. Thank your trauma responses and appreciate them. Second is trust that you have what you need inside to heal. You don't need to go. You don't need gurus. You don't need other people to tell you what's right for you. But we've learned to not listen to our gut. We've learned to not listen to our authentic self. So I want to bring people back to trusting that. That little voice inside that's, like, not, I hate you. You're no good. Those are the protectors, the. I knew this relationship wasn't right. I knew there was something wrong here. It's like learning how to differentiate. Listening to your gut, listening to your intuition, reclaiming that relationship with your wisdom. Right. You can feel the difference, like. Or you're a jerk. Feels different energy than, this isn't right.

But, you know, as a 6810 year old, how do you have wisdom that you can tap into?

They do. Those kids have wisdom. Raising my kids, like, when my husband would lose it for whatever reason. I'm not saying. I'm not blaming him. Cause I certainly have lost it, too. But I'm just. When he loses it, they look at me like, that's crazy. Kids know normal behavior. They do. So they have that wisdom, too. The ifs model believes we're born with it. We're born with that wisdom, and we learn not to listen because of life.

Gotcha.

Right?

Because of programming or rules or society or.

Shut up. Shut down. Disconnect. Disconnect. So we all have it. Let's reconnect with it. It's a second step. Trust that you have in you. Then there's this transform. This is where the healing comes in, Louis, the transform. What doesn't serve you and doesn't belong to you. There are three steps to this. This is where the real healing of trauma comes in. And a lot of this is rooted in the models of psychotherapy that I've trained in. And neuroscience knowledge. Okay, memory reconsolidation is a type of neuroscience that rewires our neural networks. What are those three steps? You need to witness the experience or share the story. And it's not just the words. It's the, you know, the part that holds. The trauma needs to share what it's holding internally with me or with my therapist or with my partner or with a friend.

You need to speak it out.

And it's not just the story. It's the thoughts, the feelings, and the physical sensations. I was terrified. I thought I was gonna die, like, so the.

It was humiliating. I had shame. I had insecurity.

Sharing it is the first step because the part holds it all by itself.

Once the body.

You mean the part that holds the trauma. Once it shares it, it releases. Oh, I'm not the only one holding this. Or I don't have to be the only one that holds it. So the first piece is share the whole experience, not relive it, be with it. It's a big difference, because we don't want people to relive their trauma, not.

To re traumatize themselves.

No, that's right. It's not about re traumatizing.

Say it again. Not be with it.

It's be with it, not in it. Okay, so we don't want people to relive it. We want them to share the experience with someone, you know, with a loved one, with a therapist. So. And then this happened. And then this happened, and it felt like this, and my body felt gross or I was all tensed up. Anything else? Anything else? So once experience is shared, then we want.

That's step one.

That's step one of transform. Okay. Second is we want a corrective experience. What does that look like? Tells us we want to disconfirm the trauma. So I'm loved, I'm seen, I'm acknowledged, I'm important. Whatever this trauma is, we want a corrective experience.

If someone watching or listening is thinking, that sounds great, Frank, but I don't have. I can't find evidence that I'm loved. I can't find evidence that I'm worthy, that I'm, you know, thought of.

Here's this considered. When the part says, I'm no good, I'm unworthy, I'm not lovable either. The self says, I love you. Like, I can see that little boy that was six years old. I'm like, I love him. So the corrective experience can happen internally. My adult now can say, you should have never gone through that. That was horrible.

But if you've never learned how to love yourself, how do you tap into that love?

That's the trust. We all have it. We all have it.

Got it.

Now, it also can come from somebody else. It can come from you to me. Like, Frank, I've known you for ten years. I love you. You are, you know, and you're really talking to the wounded part.

Yes.

You're not talking to me. You're talking to the wounded part. So it can be somebody, you know, can be. Trauma heals in connection.

Yes.

Cause trauma is a violation of a relationship.

Say that again.

Trauma is a violation of a relationship.

Is it relationship with others or with self?

Both. We disconnect from ourself to survive, and other people we disconnect from to protect ourselves. Okay.

Wow.

Okay. So this corrective experience is a relational repair. It's a relational repair.

Even if the person's not there?

Even if the person's not there, it can happen with somebody else. That's what therapy?

Yes.

Ideally it's supposed to be a therapist saying, you know, or ideally, it's the self. Like, I'm here now. I'm an adult. I heard what happened. You shared it. I love you. I care about you. And the part receives that.

Yes.

Or from. I've had corrective experiences with my kids.

Yeah.

When they've seen me in a way that I've never been seen before. Like, we have children to grow ourselves also. Right. So you get that corrective experience. So once you've shared it, once you've had some form of corrective experience, and you can feel those moments, they're like, you've had a couple of them here. I felt it from you. When you like, your body relax, you go like, oh, man. When it's something lands, that's a corrective experience. It hits differently, and it feels different. Right. So we have. When that part that's traumatized shares its experience, then it has a corrective experience. Then it's like, I don't need to carry this anymore. I got what I needed, and somebody else knows it. So that's where release is possible.

Wow. Is that step three?

Three? Step three in the transform, then release is possible. And I say to people, like, let the part. Let it go in any way it wants to. And sometimes people's bodies literally shake. Sometimes they're like, oh, my. It's just floating up into the sky. It's just like, energy. It's energy release, man.

I. I mean, for me, this has resonated with me because I feel like I've had a few of those energy releases in big ways over the last 1011 years.

That's right.

The first time when I opened up about being sexually abused when I was a child by a man that I didn't know.

Yeah.

And held onto it for 25 years without anyone knowing. When I let it go, it was like this release.

Right.

A few years ago, three and a half years ago, I was going through a challenging breakup, and I remember, and I was doing therapy for, I don't know, six months with it, intensive like five, 6 hours on a weekend. Like, you know, experiential. Just like, diving into all the parts of me that were blocking my ability to love self.

Yes.

And create boundaries.

That's right. That's right.

And I kind of had this heart pain for years. A few years I was coming and going.

That's right.

In this relationship, kind of a tension and a ball feeling of pain in my chest.

Yeah.

Sometimes palpitations, sometimes it wasn't there, but I remember feeling it in this one conversation with my therapist.

Yeah.

And something all of a sudden clicks in my body.

That's right.

It's like something. And it felt like a pop. And it, like, released throughout my body 100%. It was the weirdest sensation.

That's right.

And I haven't felt that pain.

That's right.

Since that moment of release of corrective experience and sharing it and witnessing it. And it's so freeing to let go of trauma.

It's amazing. Freeing, isn't it? Yeah. Like, because when. And I get chill, like you say that I could feel it from you and I'm feeling it from myself, I get chills throughout my body because there's nothing like, that's how you become you again. You don't change. You not become somebody else. When you release, you reclaim yourself. You reclaim yourself in this amazing way you do. It's true. And I love that you've had those moments, like, serendipitously, because of the work you're doing. I'm saying there's a method here.

Yes.

If you do, and I'm always watching those three, I'm making sure those three are happening even if we're in a conversation. So it can happen. I want the world to know this can happen for you, too. You don't have to do 33 years of therapy like I did. Like, I'm a therapy lifer. Right. It can happen. Like, this is the method. These are the steps that transformation. You feel it, it's real, and you don't carry it anymore. You don't carry it anymore. It's like you're, like, walking. It's like people who have taken antidepressants, when they kick in, they're like, I'm different. I'm not depressed anymore. Like, it's kind of like that when you release that trauma, you're like, I'm not in the world the same way anymore. Right. So that happens. Those are those three steps that need to happen for healing to occur. Right. The last of my four t's is now take back your power. This is take back your power, become you. You're more you every time you release something. And this is something I love to talk about, which was totally new for me, Louis, around the death of my dad and the healing that I did with him.

I told you earlier about my mom and the, like, this healing moment I had with her when she acknowledged what happened and she didn't protect me. Towards the end of my dad's life, he said something to me, and I'm not gonna say what it is. Cause it's like the big. It's like the moment in the book where it's like, oh, my God, it was an incredible moment. What a gift for me to have this exchange with him. It was the first time I felt love from him.

Wow.

And I felt love for him.

Holy cow.

It was in first time. First time. And this was two years ago. Okay.

Not everyone gets this moment, though.

No, I was such a gift. I was like, I think that's why I'm here. And I think that's why I went through this, is because many people don't get that you can still release without having the relational correction with the person. Yes, you can. You don't have to do it with the person. I happen to be lucky enough to do it with him, to have that. And I felt love for him. Even after all that he had done to me, I felt love, and it was amazing. Talk about freeing, to feel love for someone who was brutal to you. It's like. It was the most freeing thing I ever felt. It's like that didn't even affect me. Because I can love someone who harmed me is so powerful. It was like a drug to me, because I was so beyond it that even what you did doesn't affect me anymore. Because I can love you despite of that.

Is there ever power in not loving someone who hurt you or abused you? As opposed to saying, well, they sexually abused me, and they manipulated me, and they gaslighted me for decades of my life, and they really psychologically messed with me for 2030 years. I'm just going to love them, accept them for who they are, and just, you know, not stand up for myself. Like, is there.

Here's the thing. I love that you're asking that question because it's so controversial. And I know you had somebody on recently who has a different view on that, that I'm going to be meeting with her soon. We're going to have. We're going to do an event together.

Yes.

Okay. Because doctor Romani, she just has a different view about this. And I love that we're going to have a conversation about it because differences are really important and useful. Okay? We don't need to. We don't need to stay in the US and them of things because we'll never heal that way. We will never.

It's the.

And it's the. And 100%. So I think there are people that don't want to, and they don't have to. It's not a requirement. This piece that I'm talking about is loving. And it's not like, oh, no big deal. It's when you've truly healed, you're not carrying it anymore. Okay? So it feels different. And forgiveness, if I use the f word, forgiveness, because people get really activated by that word, is a choice. And the thing that people don't understand, and I didn't get it until a couple years ago, is the forgiveness was me releasing what I was caring about my father.

It's not forgiving his behavior.

No. It's not condoning. It was. I'm not carrying the stuff about him anymore. Forgiveness was more about me than it was about him.

Wow.

People still have a choice to do it. You know, Oprah talks about this forgiveness, and Tyler Perry talks about this, too, with all the trauma that he's gone through. So if you choose to, it's more for you. And if you don't want to, you don't have to. Some people are like, it was too brutal, was too painful. I'm choosing not to forgive, and I'm like, that's okay. It's whatever works for you. I was lucky to have this experience that I never thought I would have to be able to love someone. I never thought I would love somebody who harmed me. And the thing that was even a weirder bonus was I started forgiving myself for all that I had done to my kids, to my husband, to myself. So my loving him, still knowing what he did, not forgetting that, allowed me to love myself differently. Interesting, because who hasn't harmed or been harmed, right? This is the US and them piece that I have a mission to kind of get rid of. I know that's a big mission. I get these. I get. I hear voices. Let me say that I hear voices a lot.

It's like, love, compassion, love, connection, unity. Love, connection, unity bring trauma healing to the world. I'm like, shut up. It was like, stop. You know, unity kept coming up, and I didn't want unity to come up. I was like, oh, that's a hard one. The divide of us and them and the message was like unity. Unity. So this was.

The divide is safer. Right.

It's so much easier. Wouldn't you rather be on one side and blame somebody else of the other? So much easier.

Wow.

But now I'm free because I've forgiven myself for staying too long in relationships. Right.

Guilty of that.

Right. But. But so what if you choose to forgive, you release what you're caring about, the other person, but it gives you an opportunity to kind of release what you're caring about yourself.

I saw this quote of yours.

Yes.

It said, trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma.

Yep.

Trauma activates an internal cascade of reactions that blocks love, connection, and creativity. And in turn, love has the power to transcend trauma, heal our pain, and reconnect us to our self capital s, our source, and to each other. How can we. Is it possible for us to truly love ourselves and others if we're holding on to traumas?

I'm gonna say we're not gonna use all or nothing. And it's all degrees. Okay. I am so much further along in this process than I was 20 years ago. Was I able to do 40% of that 20 years ago? Probably. Can I do 85, 90% now? Yeah. Am I 100%? Probably not ever. Right. So, yeah, that statement, like, when I hear that, I was like, oh, my God, that's so powerful. Like, thank you for sharing it with me. I kind of feel like it's channeled information honestly, and I've lived it, and I've spent my whole career studying it. So, yes, I think that is entirely possible. I do believe it. I believe it wholeheartedly. That's why I'm on this mission. I'm on this mission, and I'm not the only one on this mission that I'm very clear about. You're on this mission. There's so many. We're coming together in a different way. There's all. These people are coming out of the woodwork. Like, the people in the ivory tower are showing up in general public. We talked about this. The influencers are showing up and coming. These motivational speakers are coming together this way. Because I think it's a collective.

I think it's a collective to do this.

Yes.

And I think it's. I really do think it's possible, and I'm not doing it alone, tell you that. But I'm one of the people, and so are you that are doing this. Yes, I think it's totally possible, and I think that's what's gonna heal.

What do you think it takes for someone to truly love themselves is releasing.

The stuff that blocks that. That's the. The trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma. I kept, every time I wrote, I wrote transcending trauma, my other book during the pandemic. And I'd write, write, write, write, write. Go for a run, right? Go for a run. I'm like such a runner. And I'd hear, trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma. Trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma. I'm like, that is the truth. Because every time I.

How do you love yourself? If you're blocked by trauma, how do you get rid of the trauma?

It's this cycle. It's the cycle it's going through. The four t's that I talked about, it's going through that. And each time you release something, you've got more capacity in the beginning, right? Each time you release it, you expand your ability to expand your ability. And it's like this cumulative thing. It doesn't happen all at once. It's not like a Hollywood moment. It happens cumulatively and early on when you're super blocked. If you can find some loving connection, because you can help, it's not your responsibility to heal me, but your loving me helps me heal myself. Because love is contagious. So if you are in a loving environment, you can access yours and utilize somebody else's, right?

So just as love is contagious, so is hate.

100% anger. Yes, it is.

That's why you got to really protect your energy and your relationship with people and do your best to shift conversations, move away from those conversations and not get caught in that cycle of anger and hate as well.

That's right. It's moments like life happens in moments and so does trauma. Healing happen in moments doesn't happen.

Here's something that I've heard people talk about. It's like, okay, if you've had traumatic experiences and you're a lifelong in therapy and psychiatrist, like, you've been in this work every daily for 30 plus years or whatever, how does someone continue to release without reliving and resharing the traumatic experiences so that it affects them so much? Some people say, quit reliving it and resharing it all the time. Therapy doesn't work. If you're always in therapy reliving it and you're not getting release and freedom, then it must not be working.

That's right.

So how do we communicate it without being stuck in this? Well, I've been there every ten years. Then why are you still stuck and angry and resentful?

That's right. And there's a lot of bad, there's a lot of therapies that are not trauma healing therapies. I was in, I told you, eleven years, five times a week during my residency. That was a big amount of therapy, but it was the talking, telling the story without release.

Interesting.

Okay.

Pull out therapy, not release.

I knew all about it. I understood it. I was stronger. Yeah, I figured it out. I was stronger, but I was still carrying it in my body.

Interesting.

Yeah. So not all therapies have those qualities of release. That's why that transform thing I talked about. So important. Now, IFS is not the only therapy that does that. EMDR can do it. Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

I've heard great things about that, but I've also. I mean, what's the difference between ifs and EMDR? And if you were, if someone is experiencing trauma in their life, what would you recommend?

First, here's the thing. So there's sensory motor psychotherapy, there's Peter Levine's somatic experiencing. There's a lot of different ABC. You know, everybody's got their initials, ifs, you know, Emdr.

They've got their method.

They've got their method. There's probably six or eight trauma methods. Huh. Okay. And nobody knows this. When you go to therapy, you don't know there's trauma methods, and those should have a release component, like psychoanalytic therapy that I was in, didn't have at that point a release component. So I processed it without releasing it.

Okay, so you weren't getting the full benefit of results.

I was better in a lot of ways. I was able to come out. They did stuff. My life got better, but I was still carrying it.

You were still holding on to. The body was still keeping the score?

The body was still keeping the score. 100%. Yes. Interesting. Yeah, it was. So I want to teach people that there is a way to do this, and it's not just telling the story, it's not just reliving it over and over again. And a lot of people do that. Right? It is. There are these certain qualities I started this year called the Trauma Institute. Okay. And it's an integrative center for bringing all the trauma modalities together, integratively bringing trauma healing to the next generation of therapists and to the general public. It's a mission for me. It's like, I don't think one model's the right model. Everybody needs different things at different times. So let's pull this resource together a lot of my friends and colleagues have made these models, and I'm, like, thankful for them to have made them. Thank you, Dick Schwartz, who made ifs. Thank you Pat Ogden, who made sensory motorcycle therapy. Thank you Gabor mate, who makes compassionate Inquirer, Bessel van DER Kolk, who brings neuroscience. Dan Siegel, like, all of them, amazing things. Like, it's time to put it together in an integrative way. And that's what I hope for the trauma Institute.

What is the core thesis of ifs?

Yeah.

And why is that something that you study and teach so frequently?

Yeah, it was like I said, I was in therapy a long time. A lot of different modalities. Did EMDR, I did sensory motorcycle therapy. IfS was different for me first because I grew up in a big italian family, and everything was about the group, the family, about the individual.

Interesting.

Sure.

A lot of people can relate to that.

Right, right. And a lot of ethnic groups are like that. Not only italian.

About the group, the culture, not the individual.

The individual doesn't matter. The group matters. The family matters. So I grew up there, and it was so amazing for ifs to say, go inside, you have self, and you can access that to heal. So it was really powerful for me to reclaim me. So ifs says we all have self energy. We're born with it, and it has inherent wisdom. We all have parts, too. All different parts of us.

How many parts of us do we have?

It's, you know, I have a part that likes to run. I have a part that likes to travel. We have a lot of different parts. We have a lot of different parts.

And there's positive parts and kind of wounded parts.

Yeah. I love that you didn't say negative parts because everybody's like, bad parts. You know, I worked. There's no bad parts. Dick's book. No bad parts. Right. There's no bad parts. We look at the positive intention. So some parts protect, some parts carry pain. Right. I have a part that's a therapist. I have a part that gets really stressed out and anxious, you know, so we.

What are the parts that protect? What are they actually doing?

Well, they're doing these behaviors and symptoms. Drinking too much, over exercising, overworking.

Over overworking, reactive, angry, resentful, protective.

And the only reason they take on those extreme roles is because of something overwhelming.

Is it a sense of control? Is it a sense of protection?

What is the control and protection? Yeah, control and protection.

When we say, when we do something obsessive or a particular way that we want to make sure it's done this way. And it seems controlling.

Yes.

What is that saying about us?

It's saying, what it tells me about us is that I grew up in a controlling environment.

In a controlling environment.

I grew up in a controlling environment. And I, in turn, I internalize control as a way to help. That's what it says.

So someone thinking they're being helpful by.

Being controlling the part, it's like, like, the part, like critic. Let's talk about critics. Like, who doesn't have an internal critic in some way, it's because you were yelled at or criticized, and then you're like, look how effective that is. I was the recipient of that criticism. I see how powerful it is. And then some part of us says, oh, I'm going to use that to control the kid in here who keeps crying because if he shuts up, then I won't get yelled at.

Wow.

Do you see that?

So I'll suppress my feelings, my emotions.

I'll do it. Shut up, you idiot. Shut up, you jerk. If you shut, if you're quiet, we won't get yelled at. So we use what's in our environment protectively. And if we understand that, then it's a different relationship with the critic. Not hate your critic. Get rid of it. Don't be critical anymore. Like, who's ever stopped drinking? Because you just said, and for those of you who are old enough, like Nancy Reagan, just say no to drugs. Like, doesn't work. It doesn't work. You know, it's like, no, it's like, oh, where did you learn that? How is it helping? Oh, okay, I get it. Are you interested in helping in a different way? Right. Would you be? Do you want to work together here? We can team up and do it differently because these parts don't like the way they do things. They were forced to use what was in their environment.

It's just a part of the tools that they know that they had access to. Yeah, yeah.

And when we're young and we come up with tools, like, kids aren't good at raising themselves. Okay. But that's what they do, right? They need.

Sometimes they raise their parents.

Sometimes they raise their parents.

Isn't that fascinating?

Yep.

What happens to someone who is maybe the oldest sibling that has to take care of their mom or father's emotions or lack of control or bad behavior, or they need to go work at an early age to support the parent? What happens to that type of person who experiences that in their life?

Yeah. So they become a Harvard trained psychiatrist. That's one of the things they do. Like, I was such a parentified child, really. I was such a preemptified child. I took care of my siblings, I took care of my mother. I was trying to manage my father, you know, like, so they become therapists, they become healthcare workers. Like when you learn that you have to care take as a way of protection. Like, if I manage to survive, then if I manage you and your drinking, then you'll maybe take care of me.

Oh, man. But that never happens.

It doesn't happen.

But it's searching for that.

But it's like you're searching for. Right. So if I take care of everybody, maybe I'll be loved.

Oh, wow.

Right? So I become a consummate caretaker. Like huge, right? We have a lot of caretakers in this world, the culture and society and that. Like, er doctors. Like, there's so many places where people caretake in an attempt, first of all, to focus on somebody else instead of themselves. And secondly, in an attempt, you're gonna like me and love me and then I'll get what I need. If I take care of you, I might get what I need in return.

So intentions are. It sounds good. I want to be of service, which is a great thing and a great intention, but when it's I need to be in service with someone. Cause then maybe I'll get love.

That's right. That's great.

Then you just keep doing.

You're chasing love 100%. That's why it's called to be loved. Like, that was my whole life. That's why that title was so perfect. If I'm of service from self, it's not about me. It's about a bigger cause. I'm here to help from a different place.

What is self versus what, being of.

Service versus trying to get something. Parts have an intention of protection. And that's the difference. There's a difference between, I really do love helping people when I have to in order to get worse. It's a different story. Ooh.

Then there's like resentment and frustration and.

Anger, and then that's when you lose it on somebody, like, you know, after all.

But parents do this, you don't appreciate.

Me, how much I've done for you. You know how much I've done for you. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, that seems like a common theme for a lot of parents, almost be for all parents, but it's like people can resonate with that where it's like, yeah, parents were frustrated with me because I didn't listen or I was rambunctious or I know. I was, like, jumping on the walls half the time.

That's right.

And you'll hear, you know, people say that my parents would say these things like, oh, after all I've done for you, you don't appreciate me, right? You don't listen to me. You just take advantage of me.

Right.

That doesn't seem healthy. But what can parents do to realize, okay, kids are gonna be kids, and maybe it's not this perfect world every day where they're, like, listening to me and quiet and patient and. Well, so how can parents shift their energy to appreciate bringing life into the world as opposed to needing appreciation from a five year old?

Right. So what ends up happening? And Doctor Becky is somebody who. I know. I don't know if you know.

Yeah, yeah, I've had her on.

I thought you'd had her on. She's great. Good. She gets. She's a big ifs aligned person, too. And so she. She real. Her parenting stuff is so solid. I love what she has to say. And a lot of it is parents often get activated about their kids behavior because of their own stuff, of their history. And my message is, do your work. So you don't say, and I've said it. Do you know how much I've done for you? I've said it. My parents said it. And I used to say as a kid, I used to say as a kid, I didn't ask to be born. Like, that's what I would say to them when they would, like, shove this appreciation. When I heard myself say it to my kids, I'm like, oh, my God, this is horrible. Like, how painful to do what was done to yourself. But when I looked a little deeper, if I behaved the way my kids were behaving, entitled and not appreciative, I would have gotten beaten. So I want to stop their behavior so it doesn't activate my own to.

Want to beat them or hit them or spam them.

Stop doing this because it's too uncomfortable for me, because it reminds me of my history. Wow. Do you see that? And so that's the cycle the parents are in that they're not aware of. So when you start doing this stuff to your kids and everybody does it, unfortunately, then it's like, do your work. I have done more healing in my life through my children than anybody else or any other therapist. Like, they have brought this stuff to my attention. I started becoming my father in the negative ways.

In the negative, the wounded ways.

The wounded ways. And that shot me into therapy for the third time. Is when I had kids and I started yelling at them and I was like, I grew up with this. The reason I had kids was to. Not to give them something else. And here I'm doing it, and it.

Was like, when what was inside of you that was doing it.

Yeah. Because when my boys would fight, if two kind of rambunctious boys, when they would fight, I can remember feeling panic inside because if I yelled and screamed like that, I would have gotten beaten. So every time they fought, my history showed up.

Oh, gosh.

Instead of like, they're boys. Come on, guys, let's behave. When you're not activated by your history, you're like, hey, you know what? We don't throw toys. If you're upset, use your words. Like, there's a way to react when you're not activated.

Yes.

Anytime you lose it, it's about your history. When it's intense, it's yours.

I think I heard maybe it's gabor, mate. That said, if it's hysterical, it's historically exactly, right?

Yeah, it's exactly.

If it's hysterical, it's historical.

Yes, that's correct. Because you don't know that.

Because you're. Because it's like if you're seeing a situation.

Yeah.

Kids running around and hitting each other.

Yeah.

Stealing something from. And screaming and yelling. And you're reactive.

Yeah.

It's because you're triggered by an event that you haven't faced and processed fully yet.

Correct.

From your past.

Correct.

Otherwise it would just be a neutral event. And if it didn't happen to you or if it didn't trigger you, you just say, hey, guys, like, break this up. What are we doing? You know, it's like, let's get to your room and take a break.

People don't know that and people don't want. They're like, it frustrates me that there's so many parenting, there's so many books about kids behavior. There's not many parents behavior. Doctor Shefali's another one.

She's great.

She's also very aligned in this. Right. You know, she's aligned.

Conscious parenting is powerful, huge.

And parents are like, these kids are blah, blah, blah versus, oh, I've got work to do. Unresolved his.

How many parents do you think in America repeat the patterns of their parents unconsciously and have not done the work to create new tools to parent from a conscious way?

Well, most of us, really. I'm sorry. Most of us. I did it. It drove me crazy to be a trauma expert. Like, I teach this for a living. People pay me money, and I still did it. And it's not. It's because awareness does nothing for change, really.

Awareness does nothing for change.

Not like that. Not when it's trauma. Not when it's trauma, because it comes up inside of you and it's. It takes you over. Right. I'm like. Like, I do know better. I had so much self loathing every time I lost it with my kids.

Afterwards, like, later that night, you're like, what am I doing?

Yeah, that's.

I'm out of integrity because I'm teaching one thing, but I'm doing the opposite.

So painful. That's where I got suicidal in my life.

Really.

That's the only times I got suicidal, was when I did what was done to me. I was like, I would rather be dead.

Oh, my gosh.

Than perpetuate this. I swear, that's that. It was so painful. I'm like. And I couldn't help people all day long because my history wasn't being activated.

You could see it from a separate situation and give the best of advice in the world.

Yeah, I know. What's I do appropriate for a living. It's ridiculous. And then. Yet I saw myself doing it. It was crazy.

When did you start to shift emotionally? It sounds like the body was keeping the score for you when you had children and for those years. And you would do things that were out of integrity with what you wanted your highest self to do.

That's right.

And then you would beat yourself up and self loathing and shame and guilt and resentment and all these emotions that don't serve yourself in becoming better. So what was the process as a Harvard trained psychiatrist and a trauma therapist for 2030 years, what was the process for you to get out of depression, suicidal thoughts, and overwhelm? To be more of peace and harmony when kids would act out?

I just. It's so. I was like. I was like, you're on rinse and repeat, Frank. Like, you just. You're on rinse, repeat. How many years of there? Like, I just did a keynote recently at the network where I'm like, I'm wondering if therapy is the way to go. Like, I've been in for 33 years. Like, maybe it's not the right way, but it's more about, like, this, where you get into resilience. I have been trying. I will never stop trying. I think we're here on this earth in human form, to have difficult experiences.

People who like to hear that.

Sorry, sorry. I think we're not only here to have difficulties.

We can have loving, fun experiences, too.

Yeah. Yeah. From a soul level. We're here to grow and evolve. And if you. I've, like, the three. I have my three r's. You repeat it, you repress it, or you repair it. Okay, so I've been one of these people. I don't know why I'm one of these people who's constantly trying to repair. Constantly trying to repair. Right. And this is what we do with every moment. We have a choice. We repress it. Most of us repress our trauma. We repeat it over and over again, or we repair it, take advantage of those opportunities. Right. And now I know. I never knew I was smart because I was criticized a lot. I'm a smart person. I know that. And I still did it because my history was in me, and now I don't. Like, I am so did. My kids are 16 and 20, and my son, my oldest, can yell and scream at me like any 20 year old can. And I don't react anymore. I don't.

How did you learn how to not react but also not get. Take, you know, getting, you know, letting a boundary cross over where you can't.

Talk to me that way. I'm gonna walk out of this room right now. That is really not okay. I'm not gonna tolerate this, and I'm not gonna engage with you when you're like this. I couldn't do that before.

How did you learn to not let it boil inside of you and think, this ungrateful child I've given my life to.

I didn't learn it. I healed it. That's what I did. I tried to learn it. I tried to learn it.

So there's a difference between analytical understanding versus physical wisdom.

That's right. Then the physical wisdom is releasing the trauma. The physical wisdom, I don't have to try hard anymore. It's not in me. The trauma is not in me. I used to have this crazy startle. My kids, we'd have a trampoline in the backyard. One would jump on me from behind, and I'd freak out because of my startle.

When I was, like, a trigger. Like, if someone was reacting, yeah, it was like.

Like this. And I would say to them, like, hey, remember Papa said he was hurt when he was younger? That's why he reacts this way. Like, I didn't want them to take responsibility for my reaction, but I still had it.

But you didn't own it and release it.

I couldn't. I didn't really, at that point, I didn't release it. You know, now I don't hold startle so much anymore because it was physical. It was a physical abuse I worked on early on, and I released it, and now I don't hold the startle. It's funny, we watched stranger things with my youngest son. He loves stranger things. It's such a trauma.

Talk about trauma. It's dark, traumatizing.

And my husband's jump it like a mexican jumping bean. And I wasn't. I'm like, I'm not. I don't have jump scares anymore like I used to because I released them. So it's like, when you release it, you don't get activated by it anymore. Wow. So that's the. That's the point. Like, I'm not done. I'm not done, but I am. I am so much more myself than I've ever been in my life. And I could tolerate my feelings, other people's feelings, so much more than I ever. Am I perfect at it? Hell, no. But every layer that you release, you're more. You.

Yeah. And you're expanding your capacity for uncomfortable emotions.

Yes.

You're expanding the ability to sit with them, to witness them without being wounded by these emotions or reactions or. Or overwhelming life experiences.

I told you with my mom, I'm like, look, mom, if you decide never to see me again because this is too painful for you, I can. I'll handle that. Like that. I was like, that's right. Like, I.

It's not what I want.

No, it's not what I want. But I can tolerate that because I'm choosing me, and I deserve to be listened to, prioritized, and take. I love myself.

Yes.

Enough.

My. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of people watching or listening that have probably experienced some type of challenge and family or relationships or might be where they have love and also frustration and hate.

Yes.

With someone in their life. Right?

That's right.

Family member, an uncle, a father, whatever. My grandparent, whatever it might be.

We all do.

And my. My intention is never to break people up.

Right.

To get them to leave a relationship or end or create a divorce. That's never my intention.

Yeah.

Because I believe it is powerful to be family and connected, even if there's discomfort or frustration or someone doesn't approve of your life choices or whatever it might be. So how can people not say, screw you? You don't understand me. You frustrate me. So I'm going to tell you that this doesn't work for me. I'm going to divorce you in this relationship, family member, friend, whatever it is. How can they cautiously communicate in a loving, appreciative way?

Yes.

And create a boundary if someone doesn't want to receive that or they're not kicking them out of their life forever.

So the screw you or kicking them out of your life forever is a protector. That's a protective response.

It's a wounded response.

It's, I'm wounded, so I'm gonna do this to you to protect myself. Okay? So. And we do that all the time. And that is the reactivity or the shutting down and disconnecting the ghosting people and never calling back. You know, like, those are. Those are setting a boundary from a protector to protect our pain, which is very different than what I did with my mom. I'm like, I love you. I was setting a boundary from self. I love you. I care about you. I want you in my life. I'll do anything I can to help you. If you can't join me for whatever reason, that's up to you, and I will deal with the consequences of that. But I love myself, and I'm choosing me over disconnection to make you feel better. Wow. Okay, so that's coming from a different place. So we set boundaries from a place of love.

Yes.

You know, I organized a funeral for my dad because I wanted to. I wanted to give him a good send off, you know, and it was from a place of love. You know, you could say no. From a place of love. Like, this doesn't work. So do with my kids now. It's like, that doesn't work for me. I'm sorry. I don't want to be yelled at. You're angry. I'm open to hearing about it, but not this way.

Yes.

When you're ready. Let's go.

You can calm down or you can talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's from where it comes from. So the boundaries different when it's reactive.

Yes.

Or shut down. Cause that's protective versus when it's coming from a place of love.

Wow. You are the expert on trauma. One of the experts on trauma in the world today. It seems like a lot of people are over sharing their traumas online right before they've actually gone through the four step process and done the three things of transforming their traumas.

That's right.

And it seems like this trauma dumping is happening without a processing privately.

Yeah.

Or with a professional first. What are your thoughts on people sharing their traumas online? And should people share things that they've struggled with online is the right time to do it, or people oversharing too much.

Yeah, it's a great. That's the downside with everybody joining up to try to help. When we all come together to try and help, not everybody's doing it from the healthiest place. Right. So that's one of the downsides, what I say to people. And even when, if you want to confront somebody who's harmed, you confront a perpetrator in any form. Heal first. Confront second. Heal first. Confront second. Because typically what you do once you heal, you see the wound in your perpetrator. That's what typically ends up.

Yeah. And you can. I mean, it's hard. It's hard to hear this if you haven't. You can see the compa. You can have complexity, compassion for the complexity.

Yes.

Of what that person was doing. It doesn't mean you agree or say they're okay.

No, you don't agree or condone, but you can see it. Like, my dad is. Like, he was a wounded person. He had limitations. I could see that now.

And the little boy inside of me was the recipient of someone else's actions. And this is not okay. And it hurt me and it huge. All of his life conditioned me for many years of my life. It ruined parts of me. And there was anger and all true wounds that he put me through this conversion therapy and these things and caused all this pain in my life. But if you can step back and look at it, you can still see, at least I know where it's coming from.

And I don't take responsibility for it anymore. I don't hate myself about it anymore. I don't even hate him about it. It was what was happened. It's. I wouldn't be sitting across from you right now if it wasn't for him.

Wow.

I wouldn't be.

You wouldn't care about this work?

I wouldn't be a trauma expert. Yeah. I wouldn't be helping people. So I have gratitude now. I mean, this is a long time. This is a long time. So I'm not. I don't want people to feel bad about themselves, if ever. We're all at different stages. I've been. I'm 60 years old. I've been doing this since.

You're 60?

60 years old.

How is that possible?

You look like that's because of healing. This is what I tell people. They're like, go to skincare line, Frank. I'm like, no, it's not skincare. It's releasing trauma.

Wow.

It's releasing trauma. I think I look younger the more I release. I think we all do. Honestly, you feel lighter. I am not carrying stuff. I'm not carrying it anymore. Right. So, yes, it's possible for people. Yes, you can do it. I don't want people to feel bad. The trauma dumping is sharing before you've healed, and you're gonna.

And people get a lot of attention. They get a lot of, like, validation, and then they keep doing it from a wounded place.

Yes. It's. It increases the US them mentality. That's the thing that I'm like, you're all good and we're all bad. Like, you know, but this early, premature trauma dumping doesn't really help now. I'm trying to create. I'm trying as I move out of therapy. Therapy is great. Don't get me wrong. It's not enough to heal the world. There's limited resources. We don't have enough therapists. So I'm trying to bring this to the general public so that people. There are safe ways for people to do that. We're creating this part of what the trauma institute is trying to create ways. If you can't afford it, you don't have those resources, that there might be ways to do that. I'm really working hard on that. But trauma dumping is not helping. Even though a part gets heard, it does. It's not done safely.

Yes.

It's not done with permission. If you trauma dump all parts of you, don't agree to share the internal parts of your. The internal parts. I say, is everybody okay with this?

Is everyone in alignment with this?

Is everyone in alignment with you?

Just the wounded part of you.

Right. Then you share from a different place when everyone's aligned. So I'm mixed about it. Like, yeah, there's too many people showing up doing it. I want to say the wrong way. Doing it in an uninformed way. That re traumatizing. It's re traumatizing when you relive something. We know this from neuroscience. Reliving reinforces the trauma neural network. Being with it is the space to allow the transformation stuff to occur.

What's the difference between reliving it and being with it?

Yes.

What is that?

I'll give you an example. Like, I'm so sick and tired of you. You do this to me over and over again. That's in it. Okay. That's in it. Right. And you could feel, can't you feel your emotional energy? Yeah. And it's like. It's like all of me feels this about all of you. And I'm all, I'm going to always do that. Yes. I'm going to get. I'm not going to get. Thanks for sharing, Frank. I'm going to get a defensive response back. That's your natural instinct. If I say, a part of me was so upset by what you did the other day, that really hurt me when you said that. Then you're like, oh, so he doesn't hate me.

You ruined my life.

I didn't ruin his life. You're like, oh, that thing I did was harmful to him. I get that. You're much more likely to say, I get it. I'm sorry about that. Here's what was going on for me. Right? So that's the being in it. It's so, like, encompassing, and it's not effective. It never works. Nobody's like, thanks for sharing.

Wow.

When we're in it.

Wow.

And so it's the being with.

Is it possible for someone to heal without a therapist, a priest, a psychiatrist who's actually helping them release their trauma?

That's what I'm working on. You know, I'm not 100% certain I want to do this. There's other people working on it, as we mentioned. I want to kind of create a safe way to do this because there's peer support, things that are helpful to a point. Like, one of the things I want to teach people is, like, when can you do it on your own, and when do you need to get extra support? Right. When you're able to be with it, you can do more. When you start slipping in it, you've lost perspective. So that's one of the guidelines. I did a course recently with a writer who writes memoirs also, Lyssa Rankine.

I know Lyssa. Yeah.

You know, Lissa. Right to heal. Right to heal. We just did a course, and we're trying to teach people, and I did, like, we set up this structure and guidelines of how to write from the part. How to write a love letter to the part.

Interesting.

So we're working on different ways. I feel like we're working on how do I heal? Because I know there's a lot of people out there who don't have these resources, and there's a lot of trauma. So I'm really working on. And I'm. You know, I want us to collectively work on it. Right. To bring this to people so that if you can't, you know, when you need to get help or how to get help. And, I don't know, you talked about these moments in your life, like, with my husband, I had so many corrective experiences with him. Like, that was. That's been a very healing relationship, you know, so we can heal in relationship under the right circumstances that are not therapeutic.

Yeah.

Too. Right. You know what I mean? Sometimes friendships are like, I have friends that are just, like. Can be so vulnerable to. And it feels so good. I don't have a ton of them, but we can heal in relationship. Yeah.

I wanted to ask you about drugs with mental health or trauma.

Which drugs you talking about? There's a lot of them.

I do my best to come from an open mind when it comes to, I guess, prescription drugs with someone dealing with mental health, trauma, you know, depression, all these different things.

Yep.

But sometimes I feel like people bypass the work first to get a relief of. I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed, I'm mentally struggling, I'm depressed, I'm suicidal. Thinking, yes, give me a drug to feel better.

100%.

What are your thoughts on this? Cause you've prescribed this as a psychiatrist to patients and clients before. Do you feel like too many people are quickly jumping to prescription drugs to heal a symptom versus turning around and facing themselves, doing the process you talked about and actually going through the pain, which feels like you're gonna die sometimes.

Yes.

It feels like threatening.

Yes.

When you face the wounds, it is horrendous. So I understand it is probably the hardest work you'll ever do.

That's right.

But what are the complications of going from prescription depression? Antidepressant drugs first before working through the pain emotionally.

Yeah. So I'm not an anti drug person, and I'm not a drug first person. Right. I used to do a lot of psychopharmacology lectures. There's neurobiological. I teach about the neurobiology of PTSD and dissociation. And when you're in hyper aroused PTSD, you have low serotonin, you have low gaba, you have high cortisol, you have high cortisol, high norepinephrine. There's a real biology. I mean, I teach this stuff in my sleep. So there's real biological dysregulation. So when you have PTSD, you do. Can benefit from increasing your serotonin or decreasing your norepinephrine or dopamine. Okay, so there's.

There's also natural ways to do that.

Right? There's natural ways to do it, and the drugs aren't wrong at all if they're used appropriately. I think of medications as therapy enhancers. That's the way I think of them when somebody can't be with because they're too flooded. Use the meds to help lower the intensity so you can be with meds. Don't do the work. Meds, do not do the work. We can have a whole nother episode on psychedelics at another time because there's a whole world of the psychedelics. MdMA, catamine, all those drugs. I'm steeped in that world, too, because people are rushing to those.

I get so worried about that.

I know.

I get worried that people. And then they're like, I'm healed. And then three weeks later, they're like, they're not. I'm gonna break down again.

Well, it doesn't work. And I have very good friends who are very thoughtful trauma therapists who are doing amazing work with psychedelics, too. So they're enhancers.

Got it.

And if you have enough knowledge to know when. It's like, when do you need therapy? When can you do the work on your own? When would medications benefit you, and when are you using them as a replacement? Like, both are true. Do you know what I mean? There's a lot of people that are like, these hippie anti drug people. I'm like, that's ignoring science. And I got PTSD, took a bill. That's ignoring reality. Both extremes are harmful.

Again, I try to have an open mind about it.

I can hear your energy, though. I feel it. Oh, good.

Because we live in the world of Anne's here.

Yes.

And I also worry about external chemicals influencing internal. The internal pharmacy that we naturally have. Just like you said, the wisdom is within us at birth.

And five. Yeah.

We have to tap into it.

Right.

We've got to shut up the clutter and, you know, the chaos, all these things. I get it. It's like, how do we know that medication also won't harm our chemistry in the future if we do too much of it?

We don't know that.

And shift of us needing it to then be self regulated. That's my worries. In a world of ands, it's a big deal.

With the add meds, for example. The add meds are very complicated, especially from childhood.

We're developing our brains.

Exactly. So it's very complicated. You're bringing up something that's important, important for people to pay attention to, and let's be thoughtful about it. Like, I used them at one point in my healing. I couldn't do the work. I couldn't work.

That makes sense.

I couldn't. I was so. I was depressed. I was taken over by it. The therapy wasn't helpful because I didn't. I needed and I did it for probably two years, maybe, is what I did. And it helped me.

Then you got off of it.

I got off of it. It helped me do the work.

Yeah, let's get.

Helped me do the work. Like, if you can't do the work, it can help you versus use it instead of doing the work.

No, yeah, yeah. If you're willing to do it and say, okay, I'm intensely doing the work now.

Yes. Yeah.

And it's a both. And, yeah. Then it's like, okay, yeah, if I'm unable to do the work and I've tried and tried and done all these different things, that's not working.

Then try it and try it, but.

Also do the work with it. Right.

Don't just take the med. It's not a replacer. It's not a replacer. It's an enhancer of the work.

That's good.

That's the way I think. I like that philosophy, you know?

Yeah, that's great.

And to be really thoughtful about the long term effects of these medicines, I think it's important because there is a culture, like, let's do everything quickly. There's such a culture in that.

Or put a band aid on it or just give it relief.

Yes. We're so. Technology has made us so instantaneous. Some of the pill stuff folds right into that. You know what I mean? And, like, I'd rather do an MDMA session or a mushroom session so I.

Don'T have to and feel good in the moment.

And I'm, like, gone into la la land, you know, so I don't have to do the work. So there's a bypass. We call that bypass. Like, a lot of people use meds. A lot of people use meditation as bypass, or spirituality, really, as bypass. Let me get to a higher place and ignore my trauma. There's a lot of bypass in spirituality. There's a lot of bypass in medication. They both, like, I'm a very spiritual person. It can really enhance the work, but it can also be bypassed. So can medicines.

Wow. If someone knows that they have blocks, they have wounds, they have pain, they have resentments, anger inside of them, and they also know that, man, this might take months or years to process and actually face. And I've got so much at work and my family, I've got to show up and, like, hold the ship together. Like, I can't go through this work right now because it's going to be so painful. It's going to take so much of my energy, my time. I'm not going to be there for my husband or my wife or my kids or my work. I'm going to be in like breakdown mode.

Yes.

What would you say to those individuals on what's available on the other side and is it ever a wrong time to start the work?

Yeah, it's a great question. And I face this a lot with a lot of people. I have to tell you, I can feel it as we're talking. It is really painful. It is difficult to go through this. I'm on the other side and my life is better than it's ever been. I am doing more things than I had. I would have never in a million years thought I would be able to live this kind of life. So the benefits are enormous when we are clean and clear and truly ourselves. The benefits are endless for all of us in different ways. So not everybody wants to, has the resources to do the work to get there. And I say that's a choice. I really say that's a choice. Most people can't slip through life without getting stopped up by it. It's the third divorce, it's the third kid that I can't afford that I shouldn't have had. It's the job that I keep, like failing at or another boss who hates me that I got fired for. Right. So what I would say to people is, how is your life and is it where you want it to be?

And if not, which pieces do you want to change when this does not have to be done in the grueling, all at once kind of way? You know, out here in LA, as I'm working more with people, it's fascinating that a lot of people who are in this industry are terrified to do the work because they are afraid they're going to lose their careers over it.

Interesting.

If I, and there's a lot, I met a lot of people who have significant trauma. You don't play somebody else for a livelihood without needing to get away from something. I'm not saying every actor has trauma. I'm not saying that. I'm saying I worked with people who are very reluctant because there's fear that they're going to lose what they do have. If they do the work, I'll lose my family, I'll lose this. So what I say is take it one step at a time. Like, where are you unhappy? What do you want to change? And then do the work around that piece. Do it a little bit at a time. It doesn't have to be like, not everybody needs to be in therapy for 33 years. Sorry, I don't recommend that for everybody. There's a lot of money and time consuming. I'm grateful, but I have a purpose, right? So do it in phases. And if it gets too hard, really stop. There's timing. I had a piece. I had my oldest son and my youngest son. They're four. Four years and a day apart. And my youngest is on the spectrum. And he was a very challenging kid in.

With many, many medical problems. And I couldn't. I wasn't. I was too overwhelmed in my life to do deep healing work.

Then during that time, I couldn't do it.

Then. I was barely keeping afloat. Right. So it's like, you gotta balance where you wanna be, where you are, and what kind of resource, energy, and monetarily do you have when it's kind of a long life and different people do different work at different times. You know what I mean? And I can say this now at 60, like, oh, you're only 30. Like, you've got a. You've got a. You're at 30, like, you've got a long way to go. Like, it's okay. Do a piece of work now. You know? I did a piece of work. Got into a great relationship with a guy. It was like I didn't repeat anything anymore. I was like, I'm not in repeat mode. I found a good relationship. And then it was these years later, when we had kids, that stuff came up at a different layer. So I went back. Do you know what I mean? So it doesn't have to be all at once.

Interesting. And what would you say is the number one emotion that blocks us from peace, harmony, and ultimate happiness?

Shame. I think it's shame. Like, shame is so toxic, and shame is usually the result of relational trauma.

Really? When does shame occur?

I write about this. It can happen. Brene Brown talks about shame in a way that I love. Also, I think from a, I write about shame from a trauma, a relational trauma perspective. And there's two shame cycles that I talk about within trauma, within relational trauma. One is when you're verbally or physically abused, you worthless piece of. Okay, you internalize. I'm a worthless piece of. So you have a part that holds shame. I. Shame is not. I did something wrong. Shame is. I am bad. So when we are. When there's an external shamer, we develop an internal shamer and an internal shamed.

Wow.

Okay, you worthless piece of. If you behave, we won't get in trouble. So when you're critically abused, verbally abused, or externally shamed, you have a shame wound. I'm bad. I'm no good.

Is that sexual abuse too?

Sexual abuse can. Yeah, it's. It's. Yeah, sec. I would say sexual abuse too. It's interesting. It's. I just feel that so powerfully, like, it adds another dimension to it, like I am. It's like the vile.

Yeah, yeah.

Worthless. It adds another layer of shame. Right. You can relate it from your own history.

Right.

So it's. It's. Yeah, it's. I would say it's a. Another depth, another layer of I am horrible. I am bad. That's one shame cycle that can be healed. Okay. And that's the wound is I am no good. It takes a long time to heal shame wounds. They can be healed, but it takes a long time. It's such a physiologically powerful emotion, and it's so reflexive and reactive. Right. Instantaneous.

It's probably why you had this kind of reaction when your kids would jump on your back. You're like, ah.

It's just. It's so reflexive. The other shame wound comes from neglect.

And that could be big t neglect.

Or little t neglect. I am so bad that my parent doesn't even care. I'm so bad that I'm not worth food or clothing or a hug or love or affection. Or love or affection. So when it's neglect, it's. And I call this one the hyper aroused. You yelling and screaming. This one's the hypo aroused. Numb, detached, disconnected. And then you develop an internal shamer or disconnector, like, those are. The people are disconnected from themselves because they've learned that disconnection is a way of being in the world. Wow. See, so those are two such shame cycles that I work with in relational trauma. All different versions over and over.

How is someone who is disconnected or analytical and not in their body and connected to their heart?

Yes.

Based on conditionings of neglect and shame.

Yep.

How does someone like that learn to process and heal so they are fully in their body and in their heart and connected to themselves and the world?

That was so when you. I had the smart intellectual protector in a big way.

I'm gonna know it all.

You don't get to Harvard. Like, I was like, yeah. Uh, like. And I was who I was, your identity, who I was. I am smart. And it was, you know, intellect fills a void. Intellect fills the void, the shame void. It's like, really? And those parts, if I feel worthless.

Then this will help me not feel worthless.

I'm going to fill the space. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to understand it. I'm going to solve the problem. Right? And those parts have a very hard time stepping back. If I step back, there's nothing.

If I don't lead with my intellect or showcase my abilities or skills, I'm nothing.

Nothing. Wow. And it's so powerful. So those are. Take a long time to work with those. And I remember the moment that I wasn't fully identified with that part. It was like one of these identity crises. It's like, who am I? Who am I if I'm not smart? You know, like, then it was where I was like, oh, you're funny, and, oh, you like this? Like, I started seeing the other dimensions, but for the longest time, it was like, I. I write about this in the book. I used to run home with a's on my report card hoping my dad will love me like this is. She's gonna love me now. The gold stars on the report card.

You know, perfect GPA.

That was top of the closet, that was driven for achievement to get love.

Did he ever acknowledge you or love you when you had a's?

It didn't. He acknowledged, we got a dollar for every a back in the day. Okay. We got a dollar for every a. Okay. So. But it didn't get me what I wanted. It didn't get me love, really. It didn't get me love, you know?

So you got rewarded in monetary ways, but not emotional.

Not emotional or affectionate. Exactly. So it took, it take those, those people that are all left brained.

How does someone learn how to fully love and love themselves and give themselves affection when their parents didn't have the tools or wasn't in their DNA to touch, hug, kiss and love on their kids? And I said, when I went to Japan last year, I saw this and I heard this from many people that said, just the culture. I'm sure some people didn't do this, but the culture in general.

That's right.

Just wasn't affectionate with kids. And it's very academic driven, achievement driven, you know, type of culture. Again, not all parents were this way, but it seems like this was the culture and they grew up not able to express their emotions.

That's right.

As fully based because of that.

That's right.

So if someone was raised without affection from their parents love attention, how do they learn to give them self affection and be comfortable receiving from others when they never received from their parents?

Yes. It's a great question. Because it is. I'm gonna say it's possible. I do believe it's possible. And it's undoing a lot of family legacy. Cultural trauma, transgenerational trauma. Okay, so there's a lot that comes up in transgenerational trauma around that doctor.

Marielle Bouquet talks about. Yes. Generational trauma.

That's exactly right. He's huge. We all grow up in some form of a family that we've internalized the messages through ethnicity, through the family culture, through, you know, so you. We internalize that stuff. That's also not our energy. It's energy we absorb because of the family we're in.

Gosh.

Okay. So once you differentiate who you are from what you were subjected to, who you are from what you were subjected to or what family you were born into, what's yours, what isn't yours. Right? And this idea, we all have love within us.

Yes.

We all have it. So even if you're programmed not to. We all have it.

We all have it, man. Your book to be the story of truth, Trauma and transformation by Frank Anderson, is a powerful story about just kind of the life you've been through and the different levels of traumas and challenges and therapies and experiences is a beautiful story. I want people to get this because I think a lot of people can relate in some way to their own life, 100% about what they've experienced, what they've gone through, and how to find hope and healing, no matter how much trauma you've experienced.

That's right.

What type of disconnection you've had, how you've been abused, abandoned, forgotten, dismissed.

That's right.

In your uniqueness in the world. And how to love and acknowledge people, even if they've treated you poorly as parents, and see them from a compassionate place without condoning their behaviors and actions toward you as a child. One of the exercises I have experienced, that is probably one of the most healing for me, as I had been doing the work for a while, was revisiting. I'm getting chills just thinking about it was revisiting the five year old in front of me and having a beautiful conversation and experience with my five year old self.

That's right.

And bringing him into my heart and reconnecting with that wounded boy.

That's right.

And as an adult self, being able to hug and give him what he needed. And also thank him for going through the challenge and the struggle for facing these confusing times as a child without the tools and saying, thank you for getting us here.

Right.

I got your back now, and I can take us to the next place.

100%.

Thank you for enduring this confusing, painful life.

Yeah.

You shouldn't have had to experience this.

That's right.

I acknowledge you for not hurting yourself more than you did, not beating yourself up more than you did, and for doing your best.

That's right.

I love you. I accept you and I appreciate you, and I got you 100%. One of the most beautiful.

Right.

Exercises that I have done for my, all the parts of myself.

That's right. That's the transformation thing I was talking about. It's a beautiful example of that. It is, yeah.

And I think, you know, your book gives us kind of this journey of how we can do this with ourselves and different parts of ourselves and just understands the complexity of the human experience because it's, in my opinion, the most beautiful experience, but it can also be the most challenging, confusing experience at the same time because we live in a world of Anne's.

Yep. I love that.

People can get the book right now to beloved. Also, your website, frankandersonmd.com. You're also on social media. More now. Frank Anderson, MD if they just google that, they'll find all of your social media links. You're also working on the Trauma Institute, which people can find as well on your website, and learn more about how they can use the tools and training and courses to support them on their own journey if they can't afford therapy at this moment or they're not ready for it, or they want to do it on their own to get started and dabble in it. So I highly recommend that you are. You know, you've been in this work with the leaders of psychiatry, psychology, therapy, trauma for decades. In this work can be studied with, worked with, and know all of the top experts you're constantly learning. So this book will be a great resource for anyone looking to reclaim themselves and to feel fully loved and healed in their journey. So I'm so grateful that you're here, and I acknowledge you for the, the pain you have endured and the suffering that you have experienced throughout different seasons of your life.

And the gift you give all of us by saying this pain is I'm going to create meaning from this pain and trauma and suffering, and I'm going to find out why this is happening so I can serve people so they don't have to experience this pain and suffering as well. So I want to acknowledge you. Thank you for the gift of continuing your journey of growth, your gift of finding ways to bring academic research and science to the masses so that we can understand the complicated.

Yes.

And just acknowledge you, Frank, for your. For your big heart and tapping into your heart and getting out of your head. Yeah, you're a beautiful human being.

Thank you.

Two final questions I have for you. This is called the three truths question. So it's a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want in this world, but it's your last day. You could be as old as you want. You know, science has gotten you to 100 plus something years old. You still have the same skin, you know, at a hundred, so you look 30. But for whatever reason, it's the last day for you. Hypothetically, you get to create everything you want, to witness, experience everything you want from this moment until then. But for whatever reason, in this hypothetical question, all of your content is gone from the world. We don't have access to your book, this conversation, anything you create, for whatever reason, it's gone. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons from all of your life's experience. And this is all we would have to remember and be reminded of. And I call it the three truths question. What would those three truths that you think everyone needs to know that you would share?

So we all have love in us, even our enemies. We all have trauma that can be healed. And really nothing else is more important than love and connection. Like, it's interesting, when you were saying that I was part of me instantly flashed to my kids and then my husband and then my siblings, right? It's like the people that are important to me, right? And then you're like, all your books and information are gone. The other piece was like, but wait a minute, like, I want to get this message of trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma to the world, you know? And so I would say those, the three things encapsulate that. The importance of love and connection, the fact that we all have it in us and it can be healed.

Final question, Frank, what's your definition of greatness?

Loving kindness. Honestly, love and kindness.

There you go, Frank. Thanks so much for being here.

Appreciate you.

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