Try to think back to 2013. It wasn't that long ago we had air travel and electricity and air conditioning. It was part of the modern era. 2013, Tulsi Gabbard, who was in her early 30s, had just been elected from Hawaii. She was a member of Congress, first term, a Democrat. And not just a Democrat, she was the single most famous freshman that year, and she was fedded by her party. The Democratic Party made her vice chair of the DNC as a freshman that year. And she was on the cover of magazine. She was the future of the Democratic Party. It was 2013. Fast forward 11 years to the beginning of 2024, that very same person was a headliner at CPAC, the conservative Political Action Committee. And not only did she speak there, she was arguably the most popular person who spoke there. This year, 11 years later, here's part of what she said.

Our democracy is under attack. The perpetrators of this attack are those who, in the name of saving our democracy, are destroying it. I don't use these words lightly. Every one of us who loves this country and who cherishes peace and freedom should be very alarmed by those who, driven by their insatiable hunger for power, are actively undermining all that we stand for. Almost every single day, if you're paying attention to the news and the headlines, there is some new assault and some new attack. Now, it's the Democrat elite and the swamp creatures in Washington who are doing all that they possibly can to keep us, the American people, from a very simple thing, having the freedom to choose who we want to be our next President. It is clear through their actions, they have no respect for us, and they have no respect for our fundamental rights as citizens of this Democratic Republic. They are so terrified that we, the people, may make what they think is the wrong choice. That in the name of protecting democracy and saving us from ourselves, they're actually destroying our democracy and taking away our freedom.

Wow. You can see why she was the most popular speaker at CPAC this year. But again, 11 years from vice chair of the DNC to headlining CPAC. Some people have asked, Well, wait a second. That's awfully fast. This must be an op. She must be a secret lefty or a CIA agent. Well, of course, we can't know. But if she was, she'd probably be getting something out of it. She'd be really rich. But no, Tulsi Gabbard is probably the least rich, famous person in the United States. She is not cashed in, just the opposite. She's actually really suffered for her change of heart. What was the process that led her from freshman in Congress, 11 years ago to headliner at CPAC this year? It's a very interesting story. She's written it in a book that has just come out. For Love of Country, Leave the Democratic Party Behind. She's joining us today to explain what exactly happened in her life. Tulsi Gabbard joins us now.Thank you very much.Tulsi Gabbard, thank you Thank you. Thank you so much, and congrats on the book. I have to say the first thing that jumped out. Tulsi is one of the most rock solid, honorable people I've ever met, says Joe Rogan.

I can attest to that. That is true. I feel the same way. Thank you. But I can also see why people are like, What is this?

Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard from Hawaii, probably the most reliably democratic liberal state. Argument there, maybe, but subjective, but pretty close, if not the most. And now this, what happened?

A lot has happened in that 11-year period. As you were talking, I'm just thinking through like, Gosh, has it only been 10, 11 years? But to me, it just shows how insane today's Democratic Party has become. Yes. Really, truly. I joined the Democratic Party in 2002. I was 21 years old when I ran for the State House in Hawaii. And as you know, I My parents are very independent-minded people. They raise all of us, five kids, to be critical thinkers and independent-minded. Make your own decision, but do your research and figure out why you are coming to this conclusion or why you are coming to this decision. And so when I had decided to run for office in Hawaii, there wasn't just like, well, of course, I'm going to be a part of this party or that party because somebody told me to or because it was a family, generational thing. None of that was there. I really started to look at Hawaii's history in politics. Why was Hawaii such a strong democratic state? As it still is now, it's a little bit less so. But at that time, what I saw was a party that welcomed free thinkers.

It was truly a big tent party, even in their own words. It was a party that stood up for Civil Liberties. It was a party that stood up for freedom of speech and was willing to fight for it. That is true. It was a party that in Hawaii's history, fought working people, fought for average everyday Americans against the corporate industrial complex, which in Hawaii was the big four plantation owners back in the day. It was because of those reasons and looking at leaders like JFK.

Can I ask you for people who aren't familiar with the history of the state, which is actually very interesting. It is. Completely different from the history of any other of the 49 states. Yes. It was almost like a feudal system in Hawaii. Is that fair?

It was. Going back, and this is where there was a big shift, and people in the political world ask all the time is, why did Hawaii become such a strong Democrat state? It was because there were four major landowners that came in and essentially took the land from the local people through the Queen in Jail, and decided, Okay, well, here's what we're going to do. We're going to start growing sugarcane. We're going to start growing pineapples. And they essentially installed themselves as the government of what was then the territory of Hawaii. And local people really didn't have a whole lot of say in it. But through that process, there were immigrants coming from Japan and from the Philippines, from Portugal, from places all over the world, seeking opportunity, getting work visas and work contracts to go and work in the fields. And these massive plantation owners essentially treated them like crap. Subhuman living conditions, abysmal pay, and essentially what we would call a complete complete abuse in this day and age. But they got away with it because the people had no voice. When one group started to rise up and say, Hey, we got to stick together and demand better living conditions and better pay, let's say it was the Filipinos who did it.

They said, Okay, well, fine. We're just going to have the Japanese workers come in and take over your fields and leave you with nothing. Pitting one group against the other. In Hawaii, it was the ILWU Union, primarily, that came in and actually started to organize workers. And there was a couple of Democrat political leaders who had failed at the polls previously because they didn't have the votes. They came in and said, Hey, look, we're going to fight for you. And they did. And that was when Hawaii shifted from Republican to Democrat control, because the Democrat Party at that time was the party of the people. It didn't matter where you were from, didn't matter your background, how much money you made or didn't make your education or anything else. They were the party of the people battling against the elite. The reason why this story is important is because you look at that legacy in my home state of Hawaii, and then you look at what's happening in our politics today, where, unfortunately, the Democrat Party and those in charge of it are now the party of the elite who are way out of touch with the experience of everyday working people across this country.

And it is unfortunate that that party has gotten so far away from its roots, its roots of being a party that celebrated freedom, its roots of being a party that fought for Civil Liberties to one now where with the Biden-Harris administration and the Democrat elite across Washington are intentionally politicizing and weaponizing the tools of our own government and their friends in big tech and social media and their friends in the mainstream media to take away our freedoms, to take away our right to free speech, to violate our privacy and our Civil Liberties. They have become the party of war. In every respect, unfortunately, the Democrat Party has become a party that is undermining the very fabric of our country, of our freedom, of our Constitution and the rule of law, which is why ultimately I left the Democratic Party. It's why I am sounding the alarm bells as we head into this very critical election year about really what's at stake.

The reason that I know you're sincere is because you left the Democratic Party at exactly the moment that it solidified its position as the Party of the Rich. There's so many rewards that you can receive if you sign up. I know a million people who've moved in the other direction. Joe Scarborough or Stuart Stevens or Steve Schmidt or all the guys from the Lincoln Project, Bill Kristol. They've all been rewarded for it a lot because there's a lot of money to pass around if you do that. But you left at exactly the moment when you could have gotten rich by staying and reading the talking points.

When I first got elected in 2012, it was a race that I was not supposed to win. If you listen to anybody who knew anything about politics, I won that election, zero support from any local or national Democratic Party individuals or the party as a whole. It was, imagine this, the people's voices were heard through their votes, and they were sick and tired of the pay-to-play corrupt politics and wanted a new direction and a fresh direction of leadership. It was a hard-fought election, but I had no idea what was in store when I actually went to Washington.

So what did you notice? I mean, Hawaii- Well, first of all- The obvious is very far away. It's just so far- It is. Physically from DC.

It is. And you would think in the age of technology, that distance wouldn't matter so much, but it does. Yeah, it does a lot. But shortly after my primary election, I got a call from Nancy Pelosi saying, Hey, do you want to speak during prime time at the Democratic Convention coming up? And I was like, yes.

How old were you?

I was 31. What a trip. That must be. And I said I would like to speak about veterans. I was serving in the Hawaii National Guard at the time. I'm still serving the US Army Reserve now. But to me, hey, here's an opportunity to speak to millions of people across the country about the people who are nearest and dearest to my heart, my brothers and sisters. And so the whole thing, it was quite surreal because I didn't seek it out. I didn't I didn't know how that machine worked. But I found myself getting these phone calls from people within the Democratic Party like, hey, go and speak at this premier event that most people don't get invitations to. And a couple of weeks after I was in office, I got a call saying, Hey, what would you say if you were asked to serve as vice chair of the DNC? And I was just literally my response was like, What does a vice chair of the DNC I don't know nothing about this. What do you really want from me? What are you asking of me? Ultimately said, Yes, because this is an opportunity to be in a position to make some positive change.

But these kinds of things kept on happening over the... It was my first year, first couple of years in office. You'll appreciate this. One of the major turning points that started to slow down the and the headlines of... I remember there was one at the Democratic Convention. I don't know if it was CNN or MSN. Someone was like, Oh, I wonder who's going to play Tulsi Gabbard in a movie. All this stuff. I'm like, This is so weird. But That summer of 2013, my first year in Congress, as you know, one of the main reasons that I ran for Congress was because of the experiences that I'd had on both of my Middle East deployments, where I experienced the cost of war firsthand, serving in a medical unit. I wanted to be in a position where I could help influence and impact those foreign policy decisions that were directly impacting my brothers and sisters in uniform. I didn't realize that my opportunity to be able to do that would happen so quickly. But it was August of 2013 that President Obama announced, then President Obama announced that he was going to seek authorizations to use military force from Congress to go and drop some bombs on Syria in what would be the first volley of a regime change war there.

I was on the Foreign affairs committee at the time. August, most members of Congress are at home during recess. I was home in my district. And I remember, like it was yesterday, pumping gas at the gas station. And this woman came up to me, and I'd never met her before. Local lady came, she grabbed my arm and looked at me with this intensity in her eyes, telling me that her son had just come home from Iraq, and she had been terrified that he wouldn't come home. He was finally home with her, and now they wanted to send him back to another war in another country and beg me, Please, Tulsi, don't let them take my son from me. Jeez. And as the next couple of days went on, I would bump into more people like that in the supermarket or just around town who were absolutely terrified. I went back to Washington. We held all the committee hearings, open hearings, classified briefings, and I went in with an open mind, saying, Give me all of the information. I want to make sure that I do my due diligence before I take a position or make a decision on this.

And ultimately, Secretary Kerry came in and briefed us the answers to very direct questions that I had, such as, what is our objective? What is your objective in wanting to go and start another war in another country? How do you think they will respond What will you do next? What is that second, third, fourth order of effects and consequences that will always happen? And the question, when I said, What is your objective? I believe it was Secretary Kerry or someone from the State Department who said, Well, we don't want to deliver a decapitation. We don't want it to be a pin prick. We want this to be a punch in the gut and send a message. And my question was, Okay, so a punch in the gut, what will you do when they respond? They said, Well, we don't think there will be a response. That's your plan? You don't think there will be a response? Gary said that. If somebody came up and punched you in the gut, would you just not respond? If they don't respond, they've got some pretty weaponized, powerful friends. You don't think they'll respond? And what if they don't respond to us, but they respond by attacking some of our friends who may be in the region.

All of these different kinds of questions, there's like, Well, we just don't think they'll do that. Well, what happens next? Well, we think this will send a strong message. And it's the same political BS talk that means nothing and is so disconnected from the reality of the people on the ground who have to live with those consequences. It really It surprised me, and maybe I shouldn't have been surprised, but it surprised me that after so many years of looking back at the massive mistakes of Iraq, that they could be so glib and just saying, Oh, we'll just go drop some bombs and send a message, and that'll be it.

They learned nothing.

They learned nothing. I panned an op-ed and published it. I was certainly the first Democrat, maybe the first member of Congress, to come out in opposition to President Obama's request. Within hours of publishing that op-ed, I got a call from the White House. Essentially, what they said was, How dare you? How dare you How dare you go against your president? How dare you go against the president who came from your home state? Not a moment of the conversation. There wasn't much of a conversation, first of all, but they were not interested at all in the reason for my opposition, which I stated pretty clearly in the op-ed, how well thought out this decision was. It was not made haphazardly. They weren't interested in my experience that I brought that helped inform my decision of having deployed twice to the Middle East before. It told me a lot about them that they were more concerned with and they cared more about being a good member of the team and go team Obama and go team Democrats, then they were concerned about the actual consequences of the very serious request that he was saying he would come to Congress with.

It sent a strong message to them as well, that I wasn't the person that they thought I was going to be, and someone who could be pupeteered, who could be bullied into just going along with the boss or whatever they had in mind, that was the beginning of their realization that, Okay, this one thinks for herself, and she's not afraid to take a stand.

At that point, they have two options. They can either try and crush you, you're a freshman, so it's a little early for that. They've also ginned up the publicity machine on your behalf. You probably weren't even aware of this, but most congressmen come to Washington, no one ever hears, no one knows they're there. Everyone knew you were there. So they can try and crush you, or they try and suborn you, bribe you, give you stuff to win you over. What did they try?

It is the public things. I remember, and I think you'll get a kick out of this, being invited to the White house correspondence dinner my first year in Congress. I had guys who have been in Congress that are coming up to me saying, Gosh, Tulsi, how come you got invited? I've been here for four terms, eight years, and I still haven't gotten invited to that. And I was like, Do you want to go? I really don't like going to these things. I hate these big parties and social things. You can have my seat. But it was that thing where, Oh, go to this embassy for this fancy Party, all this stuff that, unfortunately, too many members of Congress find very, very appealing and get some, I don't know. I don't I don't want to use the word fulfill because it's not fulfilling, but I guess it's what they want. And I didn't want any of that. So the things that they were putting before me were not attractive to me at all. And it all definitely came crashing down in 2016 when I took a step to go after Hillary Clinton when she was running for President in the Democratic primary.

I was vice chair of the DMC, and I saw that the mainstream media, they were all saying she was the most qualified person ever to run for President, and listing out all of the titles that she has held, but not a single one of them was questioning or holding to account, holding her to account for her record on foreign policy or challenging her on what commander in chief.

Yeah, or the job that she had done in any of those jobs.

That was irrelevant. Right. The actual record of what happened. Tell us what happened in Libya, actually, for her pushing for the regime change in Libya and what happened as a consequence. There are so many different examples.

For sure. You said that out loud. What happened then?

I resigned as vice chair of the DNC.

Why?

Because the rules said that as officer of the DNC, you can't take sides in a partisan primary. The DNC itself, under Debbie Wasserman-Hilton, clearly was in every way tilting the scales for Hillary Clinton. But I resigned as vice chair of the DNC and endorsed Bernie Sanders around this single issue of foreign policy. Yes. Specifically because while I disagreed with Bernie on a bunch of things, he was certainly more of a non-interventionist than the warmonger that Hillary Clinton is. I knew that would provide me with a platform to have a voice and actually speak the truth to the American people about her record and how dangerous she would be if she were ever our president, and how personal this was for me because the cost is real.

So what happened when you did that?

I announced it on Meet the Press on a Sunday morning. Didn't tell anybody I was doing it, no one, before I went and made that announcement on that show. Monday morning, came back to work, and a lot of my Democrat colleagues were basically drafting their political eulogies for me. Just like, You're done. You're done, Tulsi. Hillary will President, you will not get a single dime for your district, anything that your community needs. For your district? For my district. Not for your campaign. Not for me. For my district. They've never given me anything for any of my campaigns, and I'm totally fine with that. But that my district and my constituency in Hawaii would be punished for doing what I did. I also learned that there is an actual list of people who are blacklisted, I suppose. I was told that it would take years and years and years to ever work my way off that list. I was chuckling at all.

They said this out loud?

They thought this or they said it out loud? Oh, yeah. No, no, no. These were many conversations walking to and from votes with different people who are pulling me aside and offering their condolences, their political condolences to me because I had made a decision that they said would be equal to the death of my the Death of My Political Future.

That's crazy.

Yeah. Msnbc. I remember doing an interview. I think it was one of the first debates that Bernie and Hillary had in Florida. I think it was. And an MSNBC anchor said, Aren't you afraid of the Clintons and what they'll do? And I said, No, I'm not afraid. But I thought it was quite curious that he felt compelled to ask that question with concern in his voice.

Yeah, well, people who've been around them knew. Yeah. So you still, though, were in the party. When did it become clear, I can't represent this party anymore?

It was in the fall of 2022. There were a lot of critical midterm elections happening that year, increasingly over time. It wasn't one specific thing that caused me to make this decision, but it was increasingly over time. A couple of things. Obviously, the radical change that the Democratic Party leadership went through in really, truly become a woke, warmongering party of the elite But also it was a recognition that I had done all I could to try to change the party from within. I tried I tried as vice chair of the DNC. I tried as a candidate running for president in 2020 in the Democratic primary. The things that I was talking about, about bringing the party back to its roots, bringing the party back to being the party of the people and the party of freedom, The Party of Peace and Security, it not only fell on deaf ears, I was booed by the party elite for having the audacity to push for these things. Oh, man.

Yeah, This is a very restrained version of what I saw. They didn't just boo you. They accused you of being an agent for a foreign power and a disloyal American and an evil person. I mean, I saw that.

It's true. It's such a crazy, crazy accusation to make, obviously completely baseless. The media never asked Hillary Clinton for evidence of this traitorous treasonous act that she's accusing me of as a sitting member of Congress and as a soldier wearing our country's uniform.

Yeah, an officer, right?

Yes. The problem is that it works. That's why they continue, even now, how many years later. They continue to fall back on the Russia-Russia playbook. It's a Russian asset. They've used this against you. They've used this against Donald Trump, and they continue to come back to this.

But I'm not an officer in the United States Army, and you are. It's a little weird to say, I mean, Hillary Clinton, I will never forget it, accused you of being a disloyal person. That's a crime under the military code, I think. It is. Yeah.

It is. One that would not only be grounds for them to remove my security clearance, but it would be grounds for discharge, and it would be grounds for enforcement under the uniform code of military justice. Yeah.

If you're actually working for a foreign power as a military officer, you can be executed for it. It's not a small thing to say. Rather than just saying, Tulsi Gabbard's an idiot, or I disagree with her, or whatever, they went right to that, the heaviest thing you could ever say about somebody, about an American. That was all foreign policy related, right? Yes. That's the way it felt to me.

It was foreign policy related, and it was related to the fact that I had the audacity to go against them. To challenge the elite of the Democratic Party, which is Hillary Clinton, and it's Barack Obama, and it's the people who surround them in the military-industrial complex, in the media-industrial complex, those who are pushing. And it's not limited to the Democratic Party, of course. Mitt Romney also called me a treasonous person who is a Russian asset or something along those lines. So they are all part of this permanent Washington elite who cannot allow for those who challenge them to go unscathed because they're Their whole existence is based around that. It's based around power and where they get their power from.

The main source of power, obviously, is the exercise of military force. Yes.

It's the most powerful. It's the most powerful thing. We are the most powerful military in the world. And that's what's so offensive about them and what they're advocating for is they treat our military... It's Actually, I don't want to say they forget because they're not stupid. They really don't care about the men and women who make up our military and who live and die by the consequences of their actions, whether they're holding office or not. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are not in office right now, but they still continue to wield immense power in influencing the decisions that are being made.

Can I just, it's sidebar, but I think relevant, interesting. Are you answering the question that everyone watching has, which is who is running the government at this point? It's obviously not Joe Biden. You think Hillary Clinton?

It's not a leap of imagination to know that that's true when you look at the people who are in Joe Biden's administration. They are the people who were the right hands for the Obama administration, for President Obama, and for Hillary Clinton. When Hillary Clinton said herself the other day, she said, Oh, yeah, I talk to the White House every day. It is no shock or surprise who the influences are behind the policies that are coming out of this White House that many people say is the most radical and woke White House that our country has ever seen.

There's no question about it. But as this was happening to you, I'm sure you don't want to go to the White House correspondence dinner. Good for you. Tiresome. But on the other hand, it is a lot easier and much more pleasant to be loved than it is to be hated. I think it's just true. As you became really hated by the leadership of the Democratic Party, and they weren't hiding it at all, did you ever think, maybe it's just easier to pretend bombing Syria is a good idea? Did you ever question your decision to say no?

No. I knew that that would be true. I knew that there was certainly an easier path to take. You think? It was laid out for me when I first got there, but I never second-guessed my decisions about these different positions that I took. I never regretded them. Never, not to this day. And I never will, because I didn't go to Washington to be loved by the people who live and exist and thrive in that bubble.

Well, sure. I get it. Their love is not worth having. No. I totally agree, but their money is good. I think you're the only famous person I've ever met who flies Coach. You're certainly the only very well-known member of Congress and former presidential candidate I've ever met in my entire life who didn't cash in personally, and I know that is factually true. Do you ever think maybe, I don't know, it's easier to fly first class. Maybe I should have just…

It's not worth it. Okay. It's not worth it.

Do you think it's weird that we never talk about the money involved? I just know that from living there and from knowing a lot of well-known people who've become famous in politics. And there's not one of them, not one, literally not one on either side is not in the top 1% for income, but you're not. No. Why doesn't anyone ever say that?

Because it is the assumed norm. It's not the exception. What they're doing is the norm. So why would they talk about it? There's nothing to talk about because they assume that every member of Congress, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, the day you walk out, you get your payday.

What did you get when you walked out?

Nothing. I had to come up with a plan of like, All right, we got to figure out how we're going to pay the bills.

How much money had you amassed during your.

Every financial advisor would probably be very disappointed because my husband and I were, I'd like, Okay, we got a couple of months. We got a couple of months that we can make it through. We got to come up with a plan otherwise.

Before you'd have to sell your weekend house?

Sure. The imaginary weekend house.

Were you able to buy a big house when you were in Congress?

No. We bought a house. I don't think you ever came to our house there. I'll give you a little hint, and we shared it with my sister and her husband. But we did buy a house in a neighborhood that was affordable in DC. We found out the first week that we were there that We try to order takeout from somewhere.

Oh, in DC? Oh, you lived in the hood. I knew that.

In DC. They were like, Okay, put the order in and everything else. As soon as I gave them the address, they were like, Oh, no, we don't deliver to that neighborhood. We won't cross that bridge. We won't cross the Anacostia Bridge to get to your house.

You lived on what we call the other side of the river.

Literally. Anyway, there was a question that a reporter asked a couple of years, I forget, two or three years after I'd been in Congress. They're like, Okay, you've been here a while now. Do you feel like you fit in? And it was a surprising question to me, and I said, no, I don't ever want to fit in here. This is not my home. I'm grateful to get out of here as quickly as possible, as soon as votes are done, as often as possible, get back to my community in Hawaii or get out and visit other communities in the country and remain very closely connected to the people who I'm there to serve. We've talked about this before. There are far too many politicians from both parties who spend their time at social hours and happy hours with lobbyists than they do actually spend time at home.

Does anyone ever... Oh, that's certainly true. They have sad, sad personal lives. Almost not all, but most, as you know. But I'm always amazed by the financial disclosures. Again, this is the last question, but since no one else talks about it, I will. You see these members of Congress who are, in some cases, they're clever, maybe even smart. In some cases, they're just pretty ordinary, actually. And they're so rich relative to the mean.

Oh, yeah.

I have no idea how they made all that money. I have no clue at all how Nancy is just so rich or how her stockpicks are way better than Warren Buffet's. How does that happen? But does anyone ever talk about that internally on the Hill?

No, because most of them benefit from it. I love these accounts on X and on Instagram that pop up now that are actually tracking. I don't know how they do it. I really don't know how they figure it out, but they are tracking what she's buying and what other members of Congress are buying.

Nancy Pelosi's stock tracker?

Oh, yeah. That's definitely one of them. It's incredible. But they're like, Hey, everybody pay attention. It is. It's incredible to see. When you watch that, and I'm so glad for the transparency that they're providing to people in real-time, almost, but it's no wonder why she and others, Democrats and Republicans, who could very easily pass the legislation that says no member of Congress or the Senate or their spouse or their senior staff should be allowed to trade in stocks. Period. Full stop. It's such an obvious way to stop even the perception. If you want to claim like innocence or whatever, there should be no perception that our elected leaders are profiting off of the knowledge that they have as policymakers that directly impact industry and businesses. That's a no-brainer to me. I introduced legislation when I was in Congress to do that. Many people have since then. There's been a lot of talk and conversation. Why hasn't it gone anywhere? That's why. Because they profit off it. So they don't, of course, they don't want to talk about it.

That's just an easy one.

It is. Frankly, why do they need to be forced? I'm not some stock trader, but when I was 23 and 24, I had $5,000 in my savings account. I was like, okay, cool. Let me learn a little bit about stocks. I put some money in some stocks and I don't remember how they did. But I knew immediately, going into Congress, Perception is reality. And so it doesn't matter like, well, I've had this stock for 15 years or whatever. It doesn't even matter what it is. I got rid of... I did not participate in anything related to stocks or stock trading or buying or selling or anything for the entire time that I was in Congress. And it's not some like, oh, look at me. I'm so great. It's just common sense that we have people in great positions of power. Why should they be forced to do something with the passage of a law? Why don't they just do the right thing and say, You know what? We get that even an innocent thing could be perceived as insider trading. We're just not going to go there.

Because it's too lucrative to give up.

And they know they can get away with it.

So it's interesting It's interesting. You have explained, and thank you, the history of Hawaii, which I think is directly relevant to the choices that you've made. As far as I know, everything is just true. The party has changed a lot in just the brief time that you were a member of it. A lot, dramatically unrecognizable. But also in the process of going through all these experiences and being attacked by people who thought, who said they were your allies, you've got to change. I've changed dramatically in 20 years, just through, we all do, if we're honest. How have you changed? What perceptions of yours are different from what they were five years ago?

It is that the last five years, that it became more and more clear to me how many people, especially in the Democratic Party, in Washington, specifically, how little they think of the Constitution. I think the last five years, especially, are pretty pivotal because you look at what happened with COVID, for example, as a starting point of how people, both at the federal level, at the state level, county level, and a lot of places, when given just a little bit of power, man, they took advantage of that and continued to abuse that power in a way that just didn't make sense. It didn't make sense. When they're like, Okay, well, for public safety, everybody's got to stay indoors, and you can't go to church, and you can't even worship, like in Hawaii, on the beach. You can't have an outdoor service. But if you're going to go and do a Black Lives Matter march, that actually rises above any public health and safety concerns that we talked about, and so that's okay. The politically motivated decisions that were being made in the midst of what they were calling the greatest health epidemic of our time, I think, exposed exposed pretty deeply to a lot of people that it was really all just about power and how little they were concerned about things like freedom and Civil Liberties and the ability for us to make our own choices for ourselves.

Then it just continued escalate more and more with the Biden-Harris administration in how they were undermining the rule of law, continuing to this day, and how willing they were to both directly and indirectly censor, blacklist, and smear everyday Americans across the country if you happen to challenge them, whether it be on COVID or be on things like, and this was I think this was the thing that caused Mitt Romney to call me a treasonous liar was saying, Hey, there are US-funded, DOD-funded bio labs in Ukraine that should be secured because there's a war going on over there. The last thing we or the world needs is anything going on in those bio labs being unleashed in a way that could pose a threat to people. That was seen as- But I should just say you weren't guessing.

No. You got that. It was confirmed in any case in a public exchange in the Senate between Marco Rubio of Florida, the sitting Republican Senator, and Victoria Newland, the Undersecretary of State, who volunteered it on camera. Yes.

It was on the DOD website talking about their long history of funding these bio labs, not only in Ukraine, but in many other countries around the world.

Of course, because it's outside US law. It's biowe weapons research, obviously. But I don't even think you said that. You just said basically what the Secretary of State said in the Senate. Then you have a creature like Mitt Romney calling you a traitor to your country. He did. What do you think of him? What is that? Why would he be so committed to a lie that he'd be willing to try to destroy your character?

He is part of that Neocon, Neolib establishment in Washington that poses a direct threat to our Republic, to our democracy, and to our freedom. That really is at the heart of why I chose to leave the Democratic Party. Seeing people, and, yes, got it, he's a Republican, but But he took the same position as Hillary Clinton and many other Democrats who don't care about our country. That's what it comes down to. They don't care about our country. I challenged Mitt Romney. I sent him a legal letter challenging him on his accusations for the very reason that we talked about as a uniform officer serving the United States Army. His accusation as a US Senator is a crime punishable by death. So If you're going to make that accusation, as he did on what was then known as Twitter, you better freaking back it up.

If you take three steps back, it's like, obviously, Mitt Romney is emotionally a child. He's very much a subgenius. He's not a genius. I'll just put it that way. He's made hundreds of millions of dollars in our economy. What does that tell you about our economy? How could a guy that get so unbelievably rich? There's something systemically wrong, right?

Yeah. I think there's a huge, and I think this will be the topic of the next book that I'll write is, as we talk about the military-industrial complex, there is a corporate-industrial complex that exists as well. I'm all about capitalism. But when you look at the monopolies of the fear- Yeah, that's not capitalism. That's not capitalism at all. You look at how many small businesses are suffering in this country because of overregulation by government and because they can't afford to pay millions, tens of millions of dollars to have lobbyists going and scratching the back of politicians so that they can create the loopholes that allow their business to thrive at the cost of the mass majority of the small businesses in our country and the elimination of competitiveness. True competition, which capitalism is all about. True competition in our country. That's how when you look at people like Mitt Romney and you see how they have done so well, that's the reason why.

He's just so disgraceful. It's hard to believe he's real, but he is. How did he respond when you said- He didn't. His silence was- He didn't respond at all?

Did not respond at all, not to my lawyer and not on Twitter and not in any way, shape or form, which it didn't surprise me.

It's so dishonorable.

It is. It is. I am so grateful and really, truly feel like it is a privilege to be able to serve our country in uniform. April makes 21 years for me. I'm grateful to serve as a battalion commander currently, where I have the opportunity to work with incredible Americans who come from all over the country and who deeply love our country. It's not a small sacrifice to make both both for those who are serving as active duty service members, as well as those who serve in the reserve component. There's a reason why we do it, and it stems from a deep love for our country. To have a guy like that make such an accusation. Yeah, it hits close to home, not only for me, but the real issue with that and why I challenged him on it is because when people like Mitt Romney make that accusation, people like Hillary Clinton call me a traitor and a Russian asset or a puppet of Putin. This is not about me. It's about the message that they're sending to every serviceman and woman in this country and every American, that if you dare to challenge us, we will come at you.

It's always the least American people who make the claim that you're not American enough. But Do you ever think, so again, this is demonstrable if anyone who's made it to this point in the conversation can decide, do I agree or disagree with Tulsi Gabbard? That's fine. But I don't think any fair person could say you're in this for the money or the accolade. It's just the opposite. You're continuing to get deployed, and you're not making any money doing that. You're doing it anyway. It's quite a time commitment. Do you ever think maybe politics is not the business for me because I believe what I believe, and I'm never going to sell it out? Maybe you're not transactional enough for that. No, I'm serious.

I have never thought of, quote, unquote, politics as a career at all, ever. So the different times in my life where I have held public office, it's never been, Well, this is what I'm going to do for the next few decades, and then I'll retire. It's why I have left at different times. I did not run for re-election when I was serving in the State House because I decided to volunteer and deploy to Iraq with my brothers and sisters in the Hawaii National Guard at the time. I did not run for Congress again in re-election in 2020 because I felt like I could... The climate of the House of Representatives had gotten to that point where I felt like I had maximized the impact that I could make there, and I could be of more influence at that time on the outside, holding their feet to the fire, and being able to share exactly what I am now with the American people, the truth about what's going on in Washington, and the truth about these politicians who claim to care for you, but show through their actions that they don't more and more brazenly. This is really, you'd ask the question about what happened over the last five years.

How was the change? The change is huge.

The change really, where there has been a change, it has come from a much deeper appreciation, frankly, of our Constitution and the role that our leaders must have in truly upholding the Constitution. It's obviously something I've swore an oath to twice in my life, and I care very deeply for, to see how those in were so brazenly, and continue to so brazenly, abuse their power and weaponize our law enforcement, the national security state, all of these different tools that are at their disposal increasingly pushing us towards a place where our country is being led by a tyrannical government. Yes. The problem of the- It's a very real danger. Oh, I But I frankly couldn't, 10 years ago, maybe even less than that. I don't think I would have said that.

Oh, I don't think most people would have said it at all because it seemed like just the normal disagreements between people with the same goal, which is to help the country. That's not the case, obviously. The problem in the Constitution, though, is that the whole document, basically, is just like limits on the power and authority of politicians. That's the purpose of it. Here's what you can't do to the population. But it's in the hands of politicians to uphold. Maybe that's the core problem with our government, our system of government, is they have to restrain their own power. What if they're like, Well, we don't care about the Constitution. Old white guys wrote it, and they were racist, and it's now invalid.

That's exactly where the leaders of today's Democratic Party are. For sure. That is their mindset.

But what do you do about that?

That's where going and actually looking again at our founding documents, looking at the Declaration of Independence, looking at the federalist papers, where we are reminded over and over and over again about how our nation's founders continued to say it's we the people, that our government does not exist without the consent of the governed. This is the message I'm carrying everywhere across the country, is that if you are not happy with the direction that our country is headed, I think that most people are not happy with it. This changes only when we take action, only when we take action. There's no Night and Shining armor that's coming to save the country. Our founder specifically built our country on the foundation of we the people taking ownership and responsibility for the leadership that we want and the future that we want. Right now, I am sounding the alarm and encouraging everyone to sound the alarm. The name of my book is For Love of Country: Leave the Democrat Party Behind, specifically and very directly pointing to those who pose the greatest threat to our democracy, to our freedom, to our security, and our ability to live in peace right now.

My grave concern is that in this next election, if President Biden or Harris or whoever they may put up, if it's not President Biden, if they are allowed to remain in power, then we will get to a place where the country that I love, that you love, that so many of us love and appreciate, will become unrecognizable and to a place where the freedoms that we are already starting to lose, that we won't be able to get them back.

I know a lot of people have been to jail in the last three and a half years, a lot. I'm I interviewed a lot. Just interviewed one today. They've gone to jail for their political views and for their willingness to challenge the people in power. If Biden or if Clinton, Obama, get reelected using Biden as a cut out, and Kamala Harris. Are you worried that... I mean, we're talking about actual Americans, American citizens going to jail. We're going to see a lot more of that, it feels like to me.

We are already seeing more of that, and I have no doubt that that will only escalate dramatically, because every time... They could win the election by, theoretically, one vote, and they will run around the country and say, Well, the American people have given us a mandate to continue the great work we are doing for this country. Well, the great work that they see they are doing for this country is actually for themselves. And they are completely undermining the fabric of that makes this country what it is.

That's for sure. But are you worried? I mean, you're in this interesting position because they've always... They've disliked Trump for a long time. Disliked me for a long time. They thought they could use you They thought they loved you, and so they hate you with a very intense and very specific hate, and you've given them the finger at every turn, and you won't stop. So do you ever think to yourself- Wouldn't be surprised. Why wouldn't they indict you for being a Russian agent or whatever?

As we are seeing now, they are completely willing to use the Department of Justice and law enforcement to serve their own political means. No, it wouldn't surprise me at all. They are showing that even without evidence, without basis, without anything to back up their claims, they are, and this is what they've been doing this against Trump since he first ran for office in 2016, launching years long investigations into him, this whole Russia collusion thing, things that were proven through those investigations. No, there was nothing here. There's been no accountability for them whatsoever, which goes back to just emphasizing how critical it is. If you are a person who cares who cares about freedom, who cares about our country, who cares about being able to make your own decisions as parents about what education you want for your child, if you care about having a safe community for your child to live in, if you care about having a secure country with borders, the Democratic Party is not the answer. It is not the answer. They are, in fact, the problem.

You've been in a lot of different news stories talked about as a potential VP choice for Trump. I have no idea if that's going to happen or not. Probably unknowable. Are you open to that? If you don't do that, if you don't do that, what else are you open to? What's your plan?

I'd be honored to serve our country in that way or in other ways and to be in a position to help President Trump, if he is reelected, to actually address these challenges, to help execute those policies that will bring back a secure border, that will breathe new life into our economy and start to get this radical inflation out of control. Which on that note, I was in a conversation the other day with two different groups of people. One was with a very, very wealthy couple And they were saying, well, gosh, and they're not fans of President Biden either, but like, the economy is not actually that bad. The stock market is doing all right. And it's not really as bad as a lot of people are saying it is. And then the next conversation was with people who are not part of that wealthy class who were talking about, a loaf of bread is three times more expensive today than it was six months ago or a year ago. Basic necessities, electricity, food, medicine, all of the things that people need just to live and to try to live in a healthy way are far more expensive, but they're not making a whole lot more.

The dollar is not going nearly as far as it needs to in order to be able to afford this inflation. I just mentioned that because this disconnect still continues between the elite in Washington and the reality that they live in versus the reality that the the rest of us live in this country. President Trump recognizes that. I'd love to be in a position to help secure our country and to get us off this path towards World War III and nuclear war that the Democrat elite and President Biden's policies have us on right now.

My last question, a lot has been written about you, and a lot has been written about your spiritual life. I don't know if any of it's accurate or not. Most politicians don't have a spiritual life, so I think it spooks our media that you clearly do, you can feel it. But I want to ask you a specific question. There was a fairly famous exchange on MSNBC a week or two ago with a reporter from Politico who was attacking Christians. That reporter said, The crazy thing about Christians is they think their rights come from God. When, of course, the implication is they really are granted by Joe Biden. Like, what? Where do you think our rights come from?

Our rights come from God. I saw that clip, and I laughed when I saw it. And then I was concerned because I saw the people sitting around the table in one of those panels, and they all had serious looks on their faces as they were nodding along with this woman saying this, as though, first of all, whatever her spiritual beliefs are or the lack thereof, that's her business. But have you read the Declaration of Independence ever? Certainly not recently, because, again, whatever your own personal thoughts may be, the Declaration of Independence is not... They don't mince words.

Yes.

That our God-given rights are inalienable, and they do come from our creator. Again, recognizing that as the basis for our founding documents is a very powerful message to every person in politics or in power that you don't get to try to take away those rights. God gives us those rights. Only God can take them away. This God complex that so many of our politicians have is at the heart of the problem, is they're so eager to put themselves in a position of power where they believe that they have the power to say what is true and what is not true. That something as undeniable as the fact that I am a woman and you're a man is something that they have now declared to be a fungible label, I suppose, that you can just say, I believe I'm a man, so I'm a man, and let it be so. This is It would be laughable if the consequences weren't so dangerous, to have people in power who don't recognize that our rights and freedoms come from God, and you follow that track. Where does it lead? Is they really do believe that they are God or should be God, and that they are self-appointing themselves to be in that position of authority and have a lot of tools at their disposal to try enforce that.

And that is what is at the heart of the danger that we face as a country right now. This is something that transcends party affiliation. It transcends how you may like or dislike certain candidates. This is the fact, and it's the reality that we have to confront ourselves with. If we care about peace, if we care about freedom, if we care about security, if we care about our country and our future, the choice is very clear in this election and what we must do in leaving the Democrat Party behind.

Tulsa Gabbard. I don't know what's next for you. I don't know what's next for any of us, actually, but I hope you will keep talking.

I will. Thank you for having me. Thank you. It's an honor. It's so good to see you.