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I find it really strange that people aren't able to make the distinction between regimes and populations. The whole thing is the same. If you're angry with the Putin regime, okay. But why would that automatically make you say that you hate Russians. But also compared to- There's 140 million of them. You can dislike Macron and like French people. Why can't people make this? Why do you have to be at war with an entire population just because you don't like the region?

It's insane. But moreover, I can like or dislike anyone I want because I'm an adult man and I'm not a slave. So I can have any opinion I want.

We discriminate by nature. It's in our nature to discriminate.

But also, it's my birthright. You can't tell me who I have to like and dislike. I'm not going to submit to that. Last night we were talking at dinner and you expressed some views, and I thought to myself, I'm meeting with a conspiracy theorist.

Well, I think if you're not a conspiracy theorist by now, paying attention.

You are often described that way. Does it rattle you?

Well, it was probably a time when it would have done. But I've gone through this process in the last four years of realizing that I spent the first 50-some years of my life believing and trusting a certain worldview that with COVID and everything thereafter, all of that fell apart. It's like picking a thread on a tapestry. The whole thing just fell away into… Once you lose all of the things that you had taken for granted and trusted, then I suppose, almost by definition, you're in territory that the others who aren't on the same path as you would call conspiracy theorist. But it's really just you think, Well, if I think now that they were lying to me about that and that and that, were they telling me the truth about anything at all? Yes. You're aware that some of it must be true, but it's early yet. I've only been in this revelatory process. The scales have only fallen from my eyes. My naive trust that I placed in the establishment and in the institutions that I placed in them without really thinking about it terribly much.

Well, you were part of the establishment. You worked for BBC.

Well, I worked for BBC in as much as I was doing contract work for BBC. But I was never directly employed by the British Broadcasting Corporation. I'd be brought in to do a project. A production company would pitch a project. I would be the presenter that was associated with that project, and I would be paid by the day for the duration of the project, and then I wouldn't be working for the BBC.

I'm just saying that people watched you on BBC.

Yeah, I'm sure they did. I wrote a column for the Sunday Times in Scotland. I had been, for a while, the President of the National Trust for Scotland. At one stage, I was a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. I I was certainly associated with and part of the infrastructure of the establishment. That's absolutely the case. But I did all of it. I hold my hands up and say I did it in a naive way without really interrogating the integrity of those institutions.

It was just-Oh, I'm not judging you. I've been there.

I just trusted that I've always been a political atheist, struggling to vote in general elections, but often, usually trying to vote for someone to make plain that I was taking part in the democratic process. But I've never been affiliated to any political party, any ideology. But I think I thought that the powers that be had mine and my family's interests at heart, whether they were red or blue. Of course. Or whatever. I thought, basically, they're going to keep the lights on. They're going to make sure there's food in the supermarket. They'll maintain the roads. They'll be schools open, there'll be a hospital if my family needs it, regardless. But now I just don't feel… Well, I now know that the establishment doesn't have mine or my family's interests at heart, and that's hard. It's like a grieving process, I think. The analogy I would make with that, the five stages of grief that we're supposed to go through, the shock, the denial, the bargaining, the various stages that you're supposed to go I'm still, I'm probably four years in just coming to that point where I'm making peace with the fact that it's my responsibility that I didn't see the reality.

That's me. For a while, I was angry with them, and I still am angry with them. But baddies are just baddies. Baddies do what baddies do. My problem is that I feel, Oh, it's my fault. I should have I should have-I'm with you 100%.

I should have understood.

How could I have been so stupid?

I just think it's really interesting that there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to support what you just said, that the people in charge do not have your or your family's interests at heart at all. In fact, they're working against those interests day and night for whatever reason. I don't think any honest person can deny that at this point four years in. Well, compound question. What What percentage of your friends in 2020 arrived at the same conclusions you have arrived at? And what's the difference between you and those who didn't admit what was happening?

I would say I've lost touch with everyone from before, really. Everyone. Obviously, my family, that's the family into which I was born, and also my married family, my in-laws. We We've all remained as close as we ever were, although there were differences of opinion about whatever, what COVID was, about the products, the jabs, and so on. There were differences of opinion, but it didn't cause any ill feeling or any schisms there. Those people are still fully… It's all very loving and close. But work colleagues, friends, people that I had known in some instances from university days, people that I had worked beside. Broadly, broadly, I've lost touch with all of them. There's a handful of people. There's literally a count on the fingers of one hand of people that, as it turns out, ended up with all of the same suspicions and have ended up every bit as conspiracist as me. But as I'm sure you would testify, well, I don't know. I'm not going to prejudge your experience, but those people that I partied company with That void has been filled. That vacuum drew into a whole other cast of people, in many cases, very unlikely and unexpected.

Trudy and I, my wife and I, we would laugh about Who are you on the phone? Who have you just come off the phone from now? I would say, and it would seem so bizarre and so unlikely. People that a few years ago I would never have imagined I would ever have a conversation with, not for any particular reason, but I just didn't expect to be pulled into their orbit or them into mine. I've been through this process of shedding one carapace, feeling very exposed, I suppose, like something that has cast out like a crab without its shell until the shell hardens again. It's a very raw, nerves jangling, but now it's forming again. I would say, I suppose, to torture that analogy a little bit. I feel a little bit bigger. I feel as if I have grown because I wouldn't go back If I could press a button and make the COVID debacle not have happened, I wouldn't because what I've learned and what I feel I now understand, or at least that which I think I now have enough wit to ask the relevant questions to better understand, I wouldn't exchange where I was for where I am now.

Back to a shallow, dishonest life.

I did. I lost all those affiliations that I had because of the television persona that I had when I was making soft history and archeology documentaries. You get invited to be patron of this, representative of that. Just people won't affiliation with you. I was connected to Combatt Stress, which was a veteran's charity, and I was connected to the Association of Lighthouse Keepers. Is that a big one in Scotland? No, it's a very fringe little group, the people that look after the Lighthouse. A fringe group?

Yeah, the Lighthouse Keepers.

As I say, I had an agent, and I had a column in the Sunday Times. I had been the President of the National Trust. I was a fellow of the Royal Society. All of that, I'm not anymore. I'm not any of those things anymore. They all distance themselves from me one by one, like domino's toppling. It hurts at the time, or the first one does, like the first punch in the face. You never get Every punch you get there after is sore, but it doesn't have the shock value of the first one. So once a parted company with the one, I'm going, Oh, yeah, I can see that coming. It's just a process that I'm glad to be on for me, for us, my family.

I think of this as the great sorting. I mean, under this immense downward pressure exerted on the West over the last four years, people I end up on one side or the other. It's not a clean political divide. It's not even a political divide, as you pointed out. It's not left, right, laboratory, whatever. But I've never figured out, and I've thought about it a lot, what is it in people that compelled them to move to one side or the other, particularly to the side you're on? You said it's unlikely people that you never thought you'd be talking to. What do they all have in common?

It's a question that Trudy and I and others in a small group of of like-minded people, that is the $64,000 question. Okay, so you've thought about this. As they used to say, what's the common denominator? What's the unifying feature? I don't really know. I think there has been a great sorting I think what happened in 2020, 2021, the choices that we were invited to make, pick aside, are you going to be with us or not? And a large number of people decided to be with the... To remain part of the main. The liars. And other people pulled back from it. This was the great sorting of our generation. Yes. The first big sorting like that, there has been for decades. I think some of it was simply down to people's natural amygdala fight or flight response to threat. I think some people... You don't know until whatever the gunfire starts. That's exactly right. Whether you can't predict it until it- You think you're brave. People like Jordan Peterson have articulated it very well that the culture of movies that we were all invited to watch growing up, you're invited to think in World War II, you'd have been with the French resistance.

Of course. You would have hidden your neighbors because the black van was outside going to take them away. That's how people are invited to think that they would be the maverick. You would be the one that stands in the face of the tide. Then it happened. Before people realized what had happened, they had been sorted in that way. I think the really Part of what's really difficult now is that there's no going back, and yet we're all still living together. All the people are broadly still there, those that jumped one way and those that jumped the other. We have to find this way to go on because we were invited to see what a lot of people were prepared to do. One of the most difficult parts of it, it sounds silly now because it's really a detail, but quite early on when the mask mandate was still very much everyone had to wear a face mask. I was having to go up and down to London for work. I was flying home every Sunday morning, and it would be, I don't know, a British Airways flight or whoever. I wasn't wearing a face mask under any circumstances.

I would go through the airport, which was difficult enough.

Wait, if I can just ask you to pause. Why weren't you wearing a face mask? Would it just be easier to do what everyone else does and be obedient? Why are you so disobedient?

Well, again, I was always a rule keeper, a law abider. You I've never been a protester. I've never been an activist, anything. I'm very much a... I wasn't really paying attention, is the truth of it. I just wasn't really watching what was going on.

We were making archeology documentaries.

Well, exactly. I had a lot of things going on, but to get back to the plane, it would be awkward enough people watching you in the airport. But then I got the steps of the plane, the cabin crew would be masked and they would say, You're not wearing a face mask. I would say, no, I'm not wearing a face mask. Are you exempt? Some of them would say. And I would just say, yeah, I'm exempt. Because in my head I was. Because I thought, as a human being, I am definitely exempt from this nonsense. So I wasn't even lying in my own head. I thought, no, I I'm exempt because there's no point in this. I agree. I'm not a slave. Yeah, I'm exempt. But then you turn right down into the body of the plane and be 299 people with face masks on, glaring, glaring at me. And I would think it's this close. If If someone gave the signal to, Let's pin this guy down in the aisle. Let's eat him. Yeah. You could see suddenly, you could see, I am actually at risk here, not from the establishment necessarily, not from the government in this moment.

I'm just because I have made myself conspicuous. I have stood out from the norm, and anything could happen in the next five minutes. I'd have to do the long walk down to my seat, it'd be 27 E or something, some middle seat, and I have to get into it. Sometimes people, either side of me, would ring the service bell, put the light on, ask to be moved, to get away from me. Of course, they couldn't because it was a full flight. Then I would have to sit for the hour and 15 minutes or whatever of the flight back up to Edinburgh as pariah and then get off the way. Then rinse and repeat, do it next week, do it next week, do it next week. It's just like I said, that's a silly anecdote.

It's not silly at all. It's totally real.

But suddenly I saw people and you think, Gosh, you could suddenly see how things happened, question you had thought, I wonder how they got that to happen in Germany in the '30s. I wonder how they got that to happen in the terror in France in the- Of course, 1709, yeah. 18th century. I wonder how they got that to happen in Russia. Well, I do ask myself that anymore because you think, Oh.

Hey, guys. Josh Hammer here, the host of America on Trial with Josh Josh Hammer, a podcast for the First Podcast Network. Look, there are a lot of shows out there that are explaining the political news cycle, what's happening on the Hill, the this, the that. There are no other shows that are cutting straight to the point when it comes to the unprecedented welfare debilitating and affecting the 2024 presidential election. We do all of that every single day right here on America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Subscribe and download your episodes wherever you get your podcast. It's America on Trial with Josh Hammer. You said that in public. You said famously something close to what you just said, which is, Oh, now I understand how totalitarian movements move downward into the population, and the population, by and large, supports some genocidal agenda that normal people wouldn't support, but they do support it. You said that, and you were attacked as a bigot for saying that.

Oh, yeah, but you must have been on the same... Surely you were getting the... What was your experience? I don't know.

I don't pay any attention at all. I'm sure I've been called every name. I don't care at all. But I had checked out mentally for sure.

But what is it about why... You've clearly been more I suppose, bullheaded, stubborn about things and being prepared to stand in the face of things for longer than me. When you were asking me, what did I think was the common... What was the common denominator? What was uniting all of the people that were refusing go along with it? What do you think?

Well, I just grew up in a different way. I just knew that the majority opinion was not always right. I always felt that. I knew that I didn't care what people thought of me except the people I love just because of the way I grew up. It was not hard for me at all to take a position that is different from everyone else's. I only care about the people directly around me. That's just my temperament.

What about then the plight of a concept like democracy? We talk a lot. We're brought up in the West to talk about democracy and liberty and freedom and rights. What's your take on the reality of what democracy even means now? Because for me, I have been forced through a process of thinking about what democracy even is and wondering what it is that we had that we called democracy, and certainly wondering what it is that we have now, if anything, of that which we used to call democracy.

Well, democracy, at least in my view, it's been redefined to mean democracy is a system of government in which the people in charge, whether the elected officials, the agency heads, the people who run well-funded NGOs, when their views are represented, even though they may constitute 2% of the population's views, when those views are represented, when they're fully in charge, you can do whatever they want, that's democracy. That's not my view of democracy. My view of democracy is much more primitive, the peasant view of democracy, which is it's a species of private property, it's ownership. I am a citizen of this country. I was born here, so were my parents. I, therefore, have a share in this. I'm a shareholder in the country. I own part of this. Mine, actually. Now, I own one 350 millionth of it, but it's still ownership. It's still a share. You can't treat me like a slave or even your servant because this is my place. That's where I think democracy is. It's almost like a temperamental... It's a description of the certain worldview that you have about your government and your relationship to that government. That's how I feel about it.

It doesn't mean that if 51% of the population wants something, it gets it every time. We have a representative democracy, a constitutional republic, as I'm often reminded. But basically, if you have a system where the people in charge don't care at all about what the population thinks, we know for sure that's not democracy. What did you think it was?

Well, as you just said, in a state of semi-slumber, I just imagined that I was represented in the places of power by the fact that I was able to vote. I now realize that voting once every four or five years is nothing at all. That's a completely meaningless transaction to me now. It always was. I see now why I was, Oh God, it's a general election. I better vote for somebody. I was always very disconnected from it. But now I partly think that that may have been some semi-instinctive realization that it was meaningless anyway. But I worry now about quite a lot of people around me talk about direct democracy as a solution to our problems. It's always this Swiss model that's quoted referenda about this, that, and everything. Sort everything by having a referendum about it. Having gone through the last four years, that worries me because if there had been a referendum about face masks or lockdown or, God forbid, mandatory jabs, we'd have got all of them. The majority vote would have enacted all of those things, mandated jabs, longer, tighter lockdowns, face masks, and all of the rest of it would have been enacted by direct democracy.

Now I think the problem you've got there is the majority, you better hope they come to your conclusion. Well, because Because otherwise, if we take the step of thinking that direct democracy is the way to get us out of these problems, well, in short, I live in fear of direct democracy.

Why do you think they're saying that? I mean, what people leave out, I'm very familiar with Switzerland. I have ancestors from Switzerland. Spent a lot, went to school in Switzerland. I've been there, was there twice this year. I'm not an expert on Switzerland, but I know it well enough to say conclusively their political system works because they have a Swiss population with certain attitudes that have evolved over a thousand years, and it works for them. They vote twice a year and all the stuff. The Cantons have a lot of independent power, very weak central government, et cetera, et cetera. But that works with Swiss people. They're changing the population of the West, and particularly of Europe, so fast that you wonder, what is that? I mean, the idea that there is a thing called a Britain, or a Spaniard, or a Frenchman, or Portuguese people, or Belgians, or people from Lichtenstein, or whatever, that there are populations, Indigenous populations in these countries that have a certain national character, or language, and shared history. All of that is being obliterated by mass immigration. It's on purpose. It's against the will of the existing populations of those countries, and it's clearly tied to political power.

Am I missing something? Look, this is my view from 3,000 miles away.

No, without a shadow of doubt, I think the same thing is happening right here.

It's obliterating the United States, but it's harder for Americans to fight back against it because there's no... I mean, our indigenous population or the American Indians who aren't even really the indigenous population, but whatever. They were here before the Europeans arrived. They replaced another population that was here before them, but whatever. The point is, we don't feel we have the moral standing that, say, the Scots would have. Scotland was never or has not been in a very long time a colonial power. Why are they doing this to Scotland?

Identity is a sense of identity, personal identity, the sovereign individual, and then that coming together to be maybe a sense of community in your town, and it broadens out to national identity is problematic. I'm utterly convinced that there's just a huge centralisation of power going on. There's an anonymous faceless cabal of people whose names we don't know, whose faces we wouldn't recognize who are centralizing power. For the first time, the technology is enabling that to be global. People have tried it in the past. Whatever people have tried to be, have been totalitarian in the past. But the technology and the reach has never enabled a tyrant to control the whole world. But that is there now. I think that's what we are hurtling towards. People like Eric Hoffer and the True Believer and so on, he wrote so effectively about how every mass movement has sought to take away people's national identity and their personal identity. They want each individual to turn their back on their parents and on their family as being You can do better than these people. Their ideas are outmoded. They've messed you up, and you'd be better off without that influence.

And likewise, they want to cut people away from their national roots, their sense of belonging in a place, and their sense that they are British or that they are French. Because once you get people deracinated in that way, cut away from their roots, and the process is also about making people ashamed of their history, be it their own family history or their national history. I've noticed. So that there's nothing in the past but things to be ashamed of. So you get people to disavow the past, to disavow their parents, to disavow the family, to disavow the nation, as it's been understood. And then those people are just dots on a spreadsheet. They're just flickering dots on a screen that can be put anywhere. And now you have a global population that don't belong or feel connected to anywhere. And so You can put them anywhere because they have no roots. And that's been tried over and over again. All the great faiths have done something, attempted something similar. All the great ideologies, all theisms, fascism, communism, whatever, they all seek to do, as Hofer explains it in True Believer, they all apply the same tools to get people disconnected until you're just a lone individual that's ready to dawn a uniform and do something new in the face of utopia, the nowhere place that is the ideal future that's easy to sell people because it doesn't actually exist.

But what it means is total destruction. I see mass immigration in Europe as a form of warfare against the indigenous population. They're being destroyed and degraded. Very obvious to me as a serial visitor to that continent over 50 years, and it gets worse every time I go there. But I noticed that the people who are from there, whose parents were born there, whose ancestors who were there a thousand years ago, in your case, wearing like face paint and skirts with spears or whatever. It was scary. Highland tribes. None of those people feel free to stand up and say, What are you doing? No, you can't flood my country with people from another place because they're not Scottish, and I am, and you're wrecking my country. Why can't... That's not racist.

That's just obvious. It's also important to remember all the time that these people are being uprooted and moved in their turn as well. Oh, I agree. Everyone Anyone. And so what happens is, yes, indigenous populations are being flooded by people from elsewhere, but those people have been uprooted by the same forces of chaos and disruption The West has done God awful things to one country of the Middle East and elsewhere, one after another, African countries. And those people have been cut away from their roots, and they're on the move as well. So everyone's victim in this. Everyone. Where people turn up in large numbers from an ethnic and cultural heritage point of view, don't belong. But that's also not their fault. They're ponds on the board as well. And of course, what happens is that the people, the resident, the incumbent population feel threatened by the arrival of the new, and they get angry with the incomers when really we should all link up, everyone should link arms and say, Who did this? Calm down, everyone. Just let's sort out exactly how this has happened to all of you.

Are we being manipulated?

Why are you? Who's moved you here? It's important because you fall so readily into the-I agree, but do you have that conversation in Scotland, specifically? It's very difficult because, of course, everything, any descent, any raising a voice in that way brings out the same predictable tools from the toolbox. So you just I've long ago, I've been described as anti-Semitic for one reason and another. I've been described as white supremacist for one reason and another. I've had all the labels. And you said right at the beginning, you're now known as a conspiracy theorist. They're almost badges of honor. I agree. If you're not being tired with those brushes, then you're not doing your bit. Because immediately, that old line about you know that you're over target when you're taking flak. If they've got nothing better than to call you anti-Semitic, white supremacist, whatever, then you think, Oh, I must be doing something right because that's just the same old box of clumsy, blunt tools that get brought out to shout down anyone who's actually asking important pertinent questions. But we're not going to answer them because we're not going to give them the answer because the answer will expose us, the baddies, even further.

So let's just dismiss them as It's racist. Does it still work in Scotland, in the UK? Well, I think, as I say, because many people are now finding that it's a badge of honor to be... I've been a Putin apologist. I've had that one flung at me. I've been all sorts of things just because I've said, We're jumping into all of these stories at the moment. In the third act was actually the expression that Jimmy Dore used to me when I had him on my show the other week. He said, Everyone was invited to join the Ukraine story. In the third act. But there's pages and pages of this play before you get to the Russian tanks trundling across the Ukrainian border. You're coming in late. You've joined the cinema in the last-Well, there had been a war in progress for eight years. Now it's Israel, Gaza, and everyone's invited to that all started on October the seventh. Oh, it didn't? No. It's all obvious. It's all obvious stuff. Because those turn spotlights onto places and stories and back stories that the troublemakers, the original troublemakers, do not want to be confronted with, then hence, shutting everything down, censorship, labeling, dismissing people as whatever bad name they can think of.

How long do they take you to get to decide you didn't care what they called you?

Again, it's that thing about the first time you get punched, it hurts, but worse than pain, it's the shock. But then the next time you get punched, you think, Oh, yeah, that's that again. I suppose around the time... Because I came into all of this, I suppose, or I was seen to come into all of this around COVID and lockdowns and vaccines for children and all of the rest of it. But then, as I say, once I picked that thread and then everything started to... Then the big tapestry all started to fray and unfurl, then the next thing that came up then was Ukraine. And suddenly, people who had... There was this loose coalition, I suppose, this fragile thing of people coming together around the COVID debacle and asking the right questions and being militant enough and saying no. There was a cohesion there. But it was as though the powers that were being rumbled on COVID. Let's get a war going. Wars are great. And so Ukraine started, and A lot of the people that had brief… It was like an Awakening. You know the Oliver Sacks, Robert De Niro movie. It was like people had briefly come awake.

Just when the Ukraine war started, they all just went back to where they had been before, listening to the propaganda, just taking the official line, accepting the official narrative. I suppose it was when I started being accused of being an apologist for Putin, I thought, I've already been a an aluminum tinfoil hat wearing, conspiracy theorist, anti-vaxxer, granny killer. Now I'm a Putin apologist. Well, fair enough. I've seen the way this works. Now that I've collected that badge like a scout, I can put that one on my sleeve as well. Now I'm a Putin apologist. I definitely don't. I really don't care now, because if you're not being accused of being a whatever label, then you're not in the debate.

I just reject the whole premise, which is that some group of people who really hate you or have contemph for you, at the very least, can decide who your enemies are and then require you to agree with them. I've never had really strong feelings about Russia. I certainly wasn't mad at Russia. Why would I be? They never did anything to me. But like Tori Newland in our State Department decides, well, they're our main enemy for whatever weird reason she has for deciding that. Now I have to sign on to I'm an adult man. I can decide who I like and who I don't like. The whole idea of it. Well, get on board. Well, I don't know. Maybe I don't want to. Like, what? Who would go along with that? How could any adult allow some far away office holder, agency head or NGO director to decide what their opinions should be? What your opinions as a father of three, a married man with a job, like what you have to believe. Does that seem weird to you?

It does seem... Well, it does seem weird to me. I think people are frightened.

Of what?

Well, as I was talking about that experience on the plane with my bare-face, literally, defiance of that dick tat, it's extremely uncomfortable to stick out, to put your head up, to be noticed. I suppose, actually, in answer to your earlier question about what would be a unified characteristic of people that said, no, I suppose I had already had a long time of being recognizable to some people because of the… I hear a low-level Familiarity, celebrity, whatever. Some people would recognize me from television documentaries that I had made. I had grown a a harder shell about being looked at and whispered about, noticed. Sticking out in that I was already slightly familiar with. Whereas I think for people who had enjoyed complete anonymity, and then it came to say the COVID thing and not wearing a face mask or asking questions about what their children should or shouldn't put in their bodies, it's very uncomfortable to stand up and be noticed, to be visible. Because I had a little bit of callous, a little bit of hard skin about being noticed because I was a face from television, I suppose made it that little bit less uncomfortable for me to then be spotlet about, for the first time in my life, controversial issues.

I'd never been controversial in my life, but at least I was slightly familiar with being noticed.

When you started to get attacked as a bigot, a crazy person, White supremacist, whatever wherever that is, how did the people you love, how did your wife react?

Well, Trudy's here. Trudy is in this room. We've been 100% together on all of it, she's never blinked from it all began. I've always had that absolute... For so many people, where a split happened between We've been partners over some of this, I can't imagine how awful that must be because it's hard enough. I can't imagine. I can't imagine it. But we've always been 100% together on it. Even we're in our wider families where people took the jabs and whatever. There's never been any trouble. Differences of opinion and people thinking what was the right thing to do, what was the wrong thing to do. But no rancor, no shouting, nothing like that. I've always I've mercifully, thankfully, I've never been more grateful in my life for Trudy because of the way that she responded in the face of all of this.

But it's a big change. I mean, if you're married to someone who's on television and who's famous for his views on the Vikings, everyone likes you for that, and all of a sudden he's being called a white supremacist, that's a big change.

Yes, it is. But as I say, she just never blinked. She didn't blink. Well, you were blessed. In the game of chicken, she just didn't blink. She knows me. She's known me since I was 19. When it comes to being called things like anti-Semitic or racist or misogynist or whatever, whatever, reputing apologist, she knows me. She doesn't have to I wonder. Is he? Because she just knows.

She's smiling. No, you're just really, really so fortunate to have that.

Well, yes, fortunate. But we also I suppose you have to think, Well, we probably chose one another and stayed for reasons. Then you think, Well, as it turns out, this being a testing situation, This would be part of why I chose this person, because one way or another, I think I probably knew that she'd be like this in a situation like this. And me for her, we would just back each other up, which does make you very invulnerable, because this whole process has absolutely, in a way that's cliched, you do get confronted with what matters. We've been thrust into this from really a very recognizable and ordinary lifestyle. We've got a mortgage and we depend on a regular income to keep the wheels on the wagon like everybody else. That's right. The vast majority of people. We identify and have that commonality with... That's why I think a lot of people write letters to me from all over the world, and they stop me in the street to talk to me, because I think they instinctively realized that I'm not a credentialed academic, and I'm not an expert on this, that, or the other. I'm very much just a regular person with all of the same concerns that they've got.

Kids at school, all of it that people were able to identify with. But when I say that I've been confronted with what really matters, you think all that stuff about whether you could afford a, I don't know, a second home or luxury cars or all that cliched stuff that people are encouraged to think about. You think, God, no. What really matters is spending 24 hours a day with somebody that backs you up. My kids are the same. The kids were, they came through the whole... They were under pressure at the time to take jabs. You won't be able to go to the gym or you won't be able to go to... You won't be able to have your socialized, you won't be able to travel. They were rattled by that. They were younger then. They were teenagers when all of that happened. Very impressionable and vulnerable. But we got them through that. But they didn't. They ended up choosing not to take the jabs either. I cannot put into words how much that means to me that they didn't get polluted with that product. That's it. That's everything to me. Never mind the fact that Trudy and I didn't.

The fact that it didn't go into them, There's no salary you could give me. There's no bonus you could bum me that would make any difference. It's all of that. It's hard to talk about it in many without sounding almost like you're patronizing people. But the extent to which I've been reminded about what's important in life is worth all of it. You call me any name you want because I know who I am and my family know who I am, and I can look at my kids and my wife in the eye, and she and mine, and think, no matter what, literally, no matter what happens, we We made the right calls.

It does seem like, obviously, you're from a slightly different culture than we're from here in the United States. It's a much smaller country. It's an island in the middle of a freezing sea. There does seem to be a greater level of conformity in the UK than there in the United States.

Do you think so? Is that how it strikes you?

It does. I mean, it's a more obedient culture. You never had a Wild West, you didn't have gun fights, or you haven't since Christianity showed up, et cetera. But it does seem, and I'm judging this from your media landscape, it seems like you and Russell Brand, maybe there's somebody like George Galloway. There don't seem to be many dissenters. Describe the media in the UK right now.

Oh, my goodness. I have to be careful with my flowery language. Go crazy. Well, I'm appalled. I'm just simply appalled that we don't have anything that passes in the same way that we don't have any representation in Parliament. We don't have any representation in the mainstream media.

At all, right?

Absolutely. That was another aspect of what was so unbelievable and so discombobulating and stressful about all of this, because in the early weeks and months of what was going on from 2019, 2020, onwards, there was that period of waiting for the people, the silverbacks of the media world, to stand up and do what was required to be done, which was ask some questions. Don't propagandize. Don't just give us the government line and the pharmaceutical line on all of this.

You stop lying.

Challenge it. That incredible period of wait, and every single one of them failed the test. All the mainstream channels, all the big titles, the Telegraph, the Times, the Daily Mail, the Works, they all swallowed it and pumped it back out again. So the media is... We don't have a media worth its name. Journalism, Scotland, for example, had a proud, proud, proud history of journalism. Dundee, we're truly studied to be a journalist. Dc Tom Thompson, an iconic publishing name in Scottish journalism. Jute jam in journalism was the cry from Dundee. A proud, proud history of being ready to hold to the fire the feet of those in authority. And Overnight, either it had slipped away and we hadn't noticed. It was only exposed by COVID, or it slipped away as soon as the COVID debacle started. Then realizing you're part of that process of casting around, looking for God, we can't be the only people that think this is bonkers and bollocks. There must be other people like this. Then that process of going online. As you say, Russell Brand, God bless him. He was an established podcaster. He was already there doing other things. When all this started, he was suddenly to the floor asking those questions.

Other things is an understatement. I mean, he was from a completely different world. He had no incentive to get involved in this stuff.

But when it was required, suddenly he was there and we were watching, we were consuming Russell Brand as much of it as we could get. We were watching you and we were watching George Galloway on the Mother of All Talk shows. These funny things, these constellations, all the other stars went out in the night sky, and a few of suddenly all these new constellations appeared. You're looking at... Thank God, who can we listen to today who may have many points of view in other subjects and other concerns I might not agree with, but they're certainly asking some of the right questions about this. The new media stepped into the fray. If anyone, and they are, if people were surprised to see me, a guy that used to make documentaries about Stonehenge and the White Cliffs of Dover and Waterfalls and Purple Mountain Majesty and all of that, if they were surprised to see me suddenly, Spotlet on live television, asking questions about and refusing to comply with this, that, and the next thing, if people were surprised to see me cast in that role, well, not half as surprised as I was or Trudy was, looking at me going, How did this happen to you?

How have you ended up doing this? I said, Well, that's a very good question. I really don't know. But it's like the bit in an airplane where the pilot's dead with food poisoning and the copilot's dead and all the… Some schmuck has to come from back of the plane because nobody else is going to do it. A lot of people were suddenly cast into that unlikely role and have taken the dog's abuse for having done so. Their only crime has been to say, Hang on, I've got a question. Before we all leap into the abyss of all of this totalitarian regime, I'd quite like to ask a couple of questions just before we all go. Some of the hardest criticism has come from people that you would have thought ostensibly would have been on your side.

I mean, you live in a place where there are... I really don't think the American might... We often complain about our media, which is Stalinist, completely Stalinist. They serve the people in power. They'll tell any lie. It doesn't matter to them at all. But I think it's much worse in the UK. That's just my observation.

I mean, I did watch some of your guys eating hamburgers and saying, You get a free one of these if you get your jab.

It was totalitarian.

And people and alongside people dressed up as hypodermic needles. I remember all of that. So yes, it's- But it doesn't seem like any dissent is allowed in your country.

For example, tell us about the Scottish hate speech law.

Oh, well, I would say that's part and parcel of something that seems to be happening around the world in a certain Western country, which is to say either small countries with small populations or quite large landmasses, but small populations, so Canada, Australia, but places like New Zealand. The Anglosphere, the English-speaking world. But then something equally sinister also happened in Israel, where Netanyahu said, make my people the petred dish of the world. Experiment on these here lab rats. So again, a small population with an authoritarian leader that just offhand just decided to do what he wanted. But that was true of all of them. And yes, Britain, but then Scotland obviously has a devolved administration based in Edinburgh empowered to take a certain amount of decisions separate from West Minster in London. We've been under the thrall of administration in Edinburgh, led by the Scottish National Party for what seems like a thousand years. It's been like an SNP Reich.

It doesn't seem very Scottish to me at all.

Well, I first put my head above the parapet and got into trouble as a contrarian all the way back in 2014, actually, because that was the time of the referendum on whether or not Scotland would remain part of the United Kingdom or would strike out as a separate entity. God forgive me, I had been keeping out of it. I had my opinions, but I was keeping out of it. Relatively late in the day, coming up to the vote, I think it was the Telegraph, but one of the big broadsheet newspapers asked me for, What do you think? Would you write us a thousand words about what you think? I wrote that, well, to cut long story short, that I prefer to stay part of the United Kingdom. Queue the opprobrium from the nationalists, those who… Because I had made television like the history of Scotland, and I had been seen as a certain Scottish TV I think a lot of people made the broad assumption that I was probably a socialist in my politics, which I never have been and never will be. I got into trouble then. I've been on the I've been under attack from the SNP and its little Wizards ever since then.

It's important, probably in the context of this conversation, to make plain that it actually wasn't COVID that I first got into trouble. It It was the Independence Referendum. Scotland is run by low-caliber people, low-caliber cacistocracy, government by the worst of people. The SNP started out famously. Well, it didn't start out, but at the time of the referendum, it was led by Alex Sammond, who at least was an able, sure-footed a good auditor. He had some game. But subsequently, it's been Nicola Sturgeon, and it was then more recently, Hamza Youssef, and now he's fallen over his own feet, and he's been replaced by another one, another non-entity, but it was Nicola Sturgeon through the COVID debacle. They just seemed to... She reveled in the power. She reveled in appearing every day to count death tolls and insist on the continuation of lockdown and cutting the 6 inches off the bottoms of doors and school classrooms to let air circulate. Insane.

Is she a pretty smart, happy, well-balanced person?

I would say no, no, no. Anyway, she's gone. You have in the SNP in Scotland, people who are drunk with the idea of power. They really The very idea that a majority would have put that bunch actually in control of an independent country makes my blood run cold because it was a close run thing for a while. But it's gone now. The threat's gone for a generation, if not forever. They're inept, they're cacostocratic. When it came to the hate crime legislation, they just seemed to go for one offensive, irritating policy after another. They attempted a named person's bill in recent history, where they were trying to insinuate between every child and their parents a named person. And that could be a teacher, it could be any figure. That person would have been encouraged, and the child would have been encouraged to establish a relationship with that named person. If there are things you don't want to talk to Mom and Dad about, you could talk to this the named person. And your parents would never need to know that those conversations had to take in place. This was the named person's bill. It was eventually knocked back at the Supreme Court.

But this is an attempt to destroy the family. Yeah.

Well, that would certainly be... That was my interpretation of it.

What's the other interpretation.

Well, it was supposed to be-The government has more authority in your home than you do. Isn't it always? It's the same reason for clamping down on the internet. It's for the safety of children. They always say this. It's about protecting children from this, that, and the other. When, of course, we know it's got nothing to do with It's just about taking control of the internet. The Named Persons Act was, yes, but in line with that idea of if you want to lead a popular movement, you have to separate the children from their parents. You've got to put pressure on the family until the family fractures. It took the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, to finally turn back and stop the Named Persons Bill. But it'll be in someone's drawer somewhere, still under consideration. The hate crime legislation, it's It's important not to come in on the SNP in the third act, so to speak. We've got a long history of this behavior. When it came to the hate crime legislation, that was a pet project of Hamza Youssef, who was the sometime justice minister. He always failed in every post but fell upwards.

He was justice and failed and got promoted up to health and failed and was promoted up to whatever, one inappropriate appointment after another. The hate crime legislation was his, was very much something that he championed.

And what was it?

Well, you see a manifestation of it. In Canada, Trudeau has brought in similar legislation. I don't know if it's called the hate crime. It's almost the same name. But you see it all over. The same thing is happening in Australia. The attempt by these would be these tinpot dictatorial politicians to have control of what people say and what people think. Hamza Youssef wanted to criminalize what people were saying in the privacy of their own homes. So the idea was that if mom and dad were having a conversation in front of the television one evening and dad said something, if the child inadvertently repeated it in school the next day, let's say, My dad said so and so, the police could come to the house, hypothetically, and say to the father, What was that you were saying in this house last night? We've got your child. That was the It's the level of it.

So is Hamza... I mean, that's totally North Korean. I don't even think that happens in North Korea, actually.

He's gone now.

But is he considered... I mean, he should be expelled from your country for doing that, in my opinion. But is he considered a villain? I mean, how could he It's so evil.

Yes, you would think that any rational person would respond to that notion in the same way. But look at the way it's happening all over. It's not just happening in Scotland, it's happening all over. It's part of a pattern of behavior of a certain any controlled leader in one Western country after another who are demonstrably working from the same script. It's no coincidence that all of these Western regimes in these countries are taking similar steps at the same time. They're not acting independently of one another. They're not all having these dreadful ideas independently at the same time. No. This stuff is part of the pattern that we saw during lockdown, where suddenly everyone was saying, build back better. Everyone was saying, narrow window of opportunity. Everyone was saying, safe and effective. Clearly centralized.

It was a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

I think we can agree. A pandemic, yes, absolutely. That was a favorite.

But what is that? What are we looking at? Who's coming up with these ideas, these talking points? What's the point of it all? I don't want to be a conspiracy nut, but the level of coordination suggests that there is some body atop all of this controlling everything. I mean, what else does it suggest?

It feels as though... I think it's getting harder and harder to overlook what seems like the certainty that we're on the cusp of change, a paradigm change. I would say that we're being herded towards futalism. Most people For most of 5,000 years of human history, most people pretty much live in serfdom. In a feudal state, you can describe it any way you like, but it's a narrow, very small group at the top with everything, with all the castles, ownership of everything. Everyone else is so far beneath them as to be an insect level and treated accordingly. That is what we're going back Really up until the 19th century? It was the way of it for everyone everywhere. The way, the way, the way of life that has been possible for some of us, a relative handful in the scheme of things, a blinking of an eye in the great story of human civilization, a tiny, tiny, lucky group for a couple of hundred years in the West were able to live lives of unbelievable liberty and opportunity and equality and aspiration. If If you wanted to, you could get whatever you were capable of achieving for yourself.

Yes. And enough generations have taken that for granted that now it has fallen. People think that food in the supermarkets, lights on in the dark, police on the street that actually care about the people rather than being enforcers for the establishment. They think there's been a misconception that somehow is just in the natural order of things, that society works like that. Just the merest glance at the rest of the world at the moment, never mind 5,000 years of history, will show that the possibility of living the lives that some of us have been able to live for a very brief period of time is vanishingly, it's impossibly unlikely what we've had. But too many people have finally have been taking it for granted one after another. Now, those who would return us to feudalism have saw the opportunity and have been working towards it. And populations all over the West taking it for granted, being tolerant, being nice, keeping their heads down in return for safety and convenience, have laid themselves open. They're not in a fit state to defend themselves against a well-organised, well-motivated small group that wants to return the whole thing to some neo-feudalism.

But that's not to say it's too late. I don't want to be completely negative here. That I do think it's still possible. I think enough people have realized, are realizing all the time. I would say I think- Wait, may I assess one thing?

Are you suggesting, it sounds like you are, and you probably are right, but that some futalism is the natural state of man. Radically hierarchical societies are just natural.

Yes, absolutely. People enslaved. Slavery is a natural state. It just is. It's been a reality for so many, for such a large part of everyone who's ever lived or died. Well, of course. Through history. But I think in 2016, when we had Trump elected here and Britain voted Brexit, Subsequent to that, we got COVID and goodness knows what all. Trudy said, perhaps she wasn't alone, but she was the person that I heard say it. She said, Those two things were not supposed to happen. They were not in the script. Somebody took their eye off the ball and allowed a figure like Donald Trump to be elected in America. That's right. For the population of Britain, by a narrow margin, but nonetheless by a majority, to leave the European Union. The treaty said everything we've had since has been a sustained punishment beating to put those populations back in their box. Everything that's happened, including the evaporation of your Southern border, all of that that's happened has been a panicky response by a narrow group that saw two things happening off script that were of great significance because it was democratic. The Those were popular votes.

Now populism is being stamped on all over the world. The tractors, the truckers' revolt, the farmers' protests all across Europe, all of these things are being mischaracterised by the authorities as far right as extremist, all of the same labels because they have got to nip that.

In both cases, the people didn't get what they voted for. I mean, Trump was not able to govern. No. Very effectively, couldn't build the wall that he promised, was investigated and spied on from the very first day. I don't think you guys got Brexit. You voted for Brexit, right? No.

Absolutely 52%, I think it was. Yeah, 52 to 48% in favor of leaving the European Union. And from the moment the ink dried on that decision, All of the powers that be in the establishment, in the civil service, all across the political parties, moved heaven and earth to thwart that decision. It's been Brexit in name only, Bryno, they've called it, because it's now worse. I would say that the situation for those people that aspired to Brexit, they've got less now than they had before the vote happened. Because they've been so comprehensively punished and Brexit has been so eviscerated. The very concept of it has been so hollowed out that the people that wanted it have got less than nothing from it because it was populist. Just a notice also that in the last four or five years, populist has become a pejorative.

How can people use the word democracy to describe your country?

Well, we don't. That's why I have these fundamental problems about… We certainly don't have democracy. I wonder when democracy went away. I wonder for how long it's been standing there. What's your guess? Gosh, in my most conspiratorial moments, I think something began to happen all across the West after the Second World War.

Clearly.

Really. From the middle, during the war and after the war, I think the moves got… I don't know if it started then, but I think there was a gear shift.

Have you been to Tokyo? Have you been to Japan?

I have in Tokyo.

Then you wonder when you go to Japan, if you go from London to Tokyo, there's no evidence that the side that one actually won and the side that lost actually lost. If you didn't know the history, you would think, Well, obviously, Japan won the war. Look at it. Obviously, England lost it. Look at England.

What is that? Yes. There are all sorts of things that are confusing. I'm not a historian. I love history. I'm fascinated by history. My shelves are full of history books. But How many books have you written? Well, written? Oh, 12 or 13.

I think it's fair to call you a historian.

Well, but I'm not an academic. I don't have any. And nor do I want to be. I never really I've had that. It's not in my nature. I'm not really… Anyway. It means that I'm perfectly happy to be at home to unorthodox ideas about history because I don't have any academic… I don't have a professorship to defend.

Maybe that's why you can see the world clearly.

I sometimes wonder if I have a unique USP, a unique selling point, I think it may be that the things that I have said over the last few years, everyone knows they're true. It's just that for whatever reason I've said them, and I've had the opportunity and the platform from which to say them. Because I am just a regular person saying what every other regular person knows is true, that's my... But we've wandered off.

I think that's a great... You're qualified enough. You're not an Oxford, Don, but you've been right about a lot of things.

I've got basic questions about the Second World War.

Okay, well, what are they? Clearly, something important changed in the West in 1945.

What was that? What's very interesting to me is that Hitler Stalin were together at the beginning. Yeah, of course. When Poland was invaded, Britain said, We will do whatever it takes to restore freedom and democracy to the people from whom it's been denied. It was stolen.

And then what happened, Neil Oliver?

Then you've only got to read any coverage of the Second World War to know that at the end of the Second World War, Poland was left swallowed hole by Well, they handed it to Stalin. So the stated objective- What is that? The stated objective of Britain declaring war at the time was, well, you didn't do it. You didn't do that.

Well, you didn't even try. In our country, it's illegal to criticize Winston Churchill. He's the greatest hero in world history.

When you look at the murkyness that happened at Yolta between Roosevelt and Stalin and Churchill, and the fact that agreements were arrived at somehow where many people who wanted, whatever you would call West, the West, they wanted to be the West. They were just allowed to be swallowed hole by the Communist block.

Yeah, to the most violent totalitarian in history. So they handed these countries. They went to war to protect the sovereignty of these countries that they then handed.

People were being chased back across specified lines back into that.

What is that? Clearly, there's lying here. So what's the truth?

We started there because we were speculating about when it all started to go wrong, when When they slide towards... Anything that ends in ism is the same. Whether it's fascism or communism or any of these things end up with piles of corps. You can't get a cigarette paper between any of these ideologies. It's important not to be distracted by whether or not it's-I agree. National Socialism or communism or whatever. They're all the same. They're good for a handful of people and they're catastrophic for everybody else. And so clearly, something shifted up a gear in the West, in the middle of the... During the Second World War and after, and has been moving faster and faster ever since. But I think there's been an extraordinary gamble taken now because even people who are in a state of semi-slumber, like myself, were aware of notions like a social contract, that we as citizens would be represented, no taxation without representation. We would have our views represented We would have our liberty defended. We would be safe in peaceful countries. In return for that, we would pay tax and we would submit to certain otherwise onerous restrictions on you can't do anything.

You've got to be agreed to be policed by consent and so on and so on. That's okay. There's now a social contract. There's a quid pro quo there for people. There's a reason for people to comply because there's There's nothing in it for them. Liberty, aspiration, hope, all of that being protected by legislation and a constitution and all of that. The gamble that's been taken now is that all of that is being taken away. Everything that the people, all of the inducements to be law-abiding, peaceful citizens is being taken away. And what do I get in return? Nothing. You're going to get a digital ID, you're going to get central bank digital currencies. You're going to live in 15 minutes cities. We'll tell you what to eat. Your currency will be programmable. So we'll have complete moment to moment in real-time control of everything you do, everything you want to do. Now, that's a heck of a gamble for a very narrow group of people to take with billions of people because there's nothing in it for the people. There's nothing in it for them. And I I think they have fumbled the ball. I think that's where there's hope because not 50%, not 51% of the people have realized that and would do anything about it.

But history shows that it never requires. It only takes 5% or 10% of people to cotton on and do something about it and make the difference. I think that in the final moves towards this neo-feudalism, they have exposed themselves. They've gone galloping towards the finishing line too early in the wrong way, and too many people have seen it. I think in there somewhere is hope, and it's probably enough hope.

I wonder, though. I mean, it does seem, two things. It seems like they're pushing the population, not just of your country or mine, but really of most Western countries, right to the point of revolution. How about we give you nothing and you Just shut up and take it?

Yeah.

And erase all hope for a future for your children or grandchildren, or even having children or grandchildren.

It's quite a gamble to take.

But the gamble is that the technology is evolving so quickly that it'll allow them to harness this surveillance state and various tools of violence that are so overwhelming that there's nothing the population can do anything, could do about it. Drones and AI are going to be enough to to force people to accept this. That's how I read it.

It's possible. Yes, of course, it's possible. But I think it's incumbent upon us to be optimistic that that's not what happens. I think there's an absolute obligation. It's beyond a right. It's an absolute obligation to be positive. I struggle with it. I have to be yanked back onto the path of righteousness by Trudy all the time because she is, by inclination, more positive than I am. But nonetheless, I lean to the dark side all the time. Well, Scots have dark souls, don't they? Yes, it's never difficult to tell the difference between a Scotsman and a ray of sunshine, as the saying goes. But you have to… When we spoke earlier about being brought to terms with being made to confront what really matters, and it is difficult to talk about it in many ways. It almost makes a person blush because of the things that you find yourself having to say. But the Constitution of the United States, the First Amendment, it's at times like this that these things are suddenly a light comes on inside them and suddenly everyone sees them as though for the first time. It's only because they're being threatened that people see them.

The The language, the inalienable right, is so important. You know this, you get this at school, but the inalienable is to say that your freedom is not... You're born with it. It's there. It's from God. It certainly isn't given to you by any person, and it can't be taken from you by any person. But the third and most important bit about inalienable, I only really began to contemplate in recent years, is that even if you want You can't surrender your freedom, you can't because it's inalienable. You are lumbered with it. You're stuck with it. It's like your leg. You can't... It's part of you, your freedom. And it's when it's challenged in this way. And it's under freedom. And people talk about freedoms as though it's plural. There's only freedom. It's a single thing. And because it's inalienable, it's at the moment when it's being threatened, that people... None of us has any... We have an obligation to defend it. You don't get the choice. If someone offers you slavery, will you be my slave? You can't. Because it's your inalienable right to be free, you can't surrender to slavery. It's not your thing to give away.

That's why some of this, I suppose, had to happen. People need to see the freedom of speech being taken away by hate crime legislation, hate speech legislation, legislation or whatever. They need these things to happen before you look again at what freedom is, what democracy might be, what it is to have inalienable rights. We don't have the option to give these things up, even if we're broken and we want to. I think these are profound verities.

What's the tipping point? What's the point at which you won't have optimism? What's the point at which- Never.

You can't. Good. Well, good. Well, you can't because you're not allowed. You're not entitled to give up because it's in the nature of inalienable rights, even if unto death, you may take our lives, but you'll never take our freedom. The oft-quoted line from Braveheart. That is just it. There's There's nothing to be pessimistic about, essentially, because the option to give up is not there. You don't get to give it up.

Do you think the totalitarians will win, honestly?

No, they won't. Because I believe I also think a lot nowadays about natural law. I read about common law, which has become an obsession, and I read about natural law. Whether you're religious or not, let's say, if you accept an intelligent universe, and then natural law says that the intelligent universe does want the best for you, unlike our regimes and our establishment and our powers that be, the universe is there for you to be the best expression of yourself and consciousness that there can be. And all of that can be subverted by evil. A bit like if You can hold a ball under the surface of water for as long as you've got the strength to do it. But the ball wants to be somewhere else because that's in the natural order of things. Eventually, the totalitarians will run out of the strength to subvert the way that things are supposed to be. It's difficult to put a timeline on these things. I wouldn't say that we're going to see the end of it in our lifetimes, you and me. It might be for our children to see the end of it, but it will end because the natural law will reassert itself.

Another of the things I was sleepy about in a state of slumber about, I didn't really think about faith. I've always been a person of faith quietly. I don't go to church, but I believe in a transcendent intelligence intelligent entity. I think that was brought home to me, and the light came on in it for me during this time as well, because so many people wrote to me, thousands of people wrote to me from all over the world. This game started where people… One woman wrote a letter to me and addressed it to Neil Oliver, near Sterling Castle, Sterling, Scotland, and the letter came to me. I thought, Well, that's impressive. The postman managed to get that to me. I put a picture of on social media, and without thinking, and it opened floodgates. And now I've had thousands of letters like these. And so people were writing to me without knowing my address. And the vast majority of the letters were about this is a fight between good and evil. This is a fight between right and wrong. This is about light and dark. It was as fundamental as that for most of those people that were writing to me.

And perversely, in an upside-down way, it was becoming aware evil in the world around me that made me think, What's the opposite of evil? There must be good. There must be good because I see the evil. Every force has its equal and opposite. So there must be good. There must be God. There must be because I've seen the alternative. I've seen the adversary because it's stalking the land at the moment. The badness is visible. That's part of this profound realignment that I've been going through. Or it really is just an awakening. I mean, that's a hackney term now, but being awakened.

Do you see it happening to others around you? Yes, yes, absolutely.

More and more people are saying it. Differences are never made by the majority. Not really. That's not how it works. The crucial thing is invariably done by the one or just a few people who are right. You know how when you... Sometimes you'll be sitting at a dinner table with friends and family and whatever, and you say something and the whole place just breaks up. A great perfect line. You just say something and everyone laughs. If you think, most often, you didn't even think of the line. You didn't compose it. It was just there and you said it. And everyone laughs because what you said, it's not just funny, it's also true. People can instantly... True runs through people like lightning through a lightning conductor. It just, oh, it runs through you and you feel it. And I think that's what's happened for a lot of people. A lot of people are able to identify very readily with what's wrong here, which is simply an inversion of natural law that evil is trying to assert itself. Freedom is being taken from people from whom it cannot be taken, but with the ending of those people themselves.

These fundamentals are happening, and I do genuinely hand on heart thinking of people think that. Don't just think it. They know it because it's true. It's true and people feel it.

I think what you're saying is absolutely right. True things, they resonate. There's like a tuning fork inside you that starts to hum when you hear something that you know to be true. It almost doesn't need to be explained. When you hear it, you know it. But I think there's a step from that experience to using the word God in public in the secular West. Are you hearing that more? Yeah, definitely.

I am, too. Definitely. I feel good about it. I think part of why I feel good about it is because it's coming at me in various shades. I'm being people of Christian and Islamic faith are talking to me. And in Taraleya, they mention, they talk about everything, but they talk about faith and good and evil. Within the Christian community, I hear from Catholic and Protestant, and they're all saying the same thing because the only important bits of any of those messages are the same anyway. And They're all... Again, it's the truth. It's striking. It's chiming with me. I can feel it because it's evidently true. I don't have any quam about invoking God because I'm pretty sure I've caught sight of the devil.

It's so interesting. Not everything, but a lot of things that I thought 20 years ago were completely ridiculous. Now, I was utterly wrong. And one of them We were told for so long that Muslims are your enemy. I want to say I'm not a Muslim, and I'm completely opposed to mass migration, period. I don't care of anybody. I'm just against it. But it hasn't turned out that way. I have to say, you, Galloway, of course, Russell Brand, it feels like the people who hate you the most in the UK are educated white liberals, and it feels like a lot of Muslim immigrants are open to what you're saying and agree with you. That's my impression as a foreigner. Do you feel that?

Yes, because I think it's much more important just to see a person first. Why? Of course. I know you know that, but that's the thing. I don't always think about this information is coming at me from a Christian or from a Muslim.

Well, in our country, it's a different experience. But after 9/11, and I'm not Muslim, I'm not going to become Muslim. I don't agree with Islam. But we were told, again and again, and everybody in the world I lived in seem to agree with it, that Muslims is Islam. That's our enemy. I don't know if you had that experience in the UK. We definitely had that here. It's just interesting.

But again, that's all part of that divide and conquer.

You're absolutely right. I just did not perceive that at the time because I'm stupid.

Well, you've made me think about it. You spent years in Washington, DC.

Only 35. Not a big deal.

I hold my hand up and say, I absolutely I grew up with absolute certainty that America were the good guys. I watched the West Wing, almost all of it, and I thought that as long as there's Democrats in the West Wing, the white hatted cowboys are out there making I'm not sure. Everything's going to be all right. God help me. I went, Oh, Jed Bartlet. Well, fantastic. Now I think, Oh, why did I ever think that? Now, you were in the belly of the beast. What is it? What is it with these people? These people that... I'm not going to... Why name any names? These people that have gone in skinny and come out fat with money, with lobbying and goodness and insider trading and all of the rest of it. So they've got more money than Creasus, and they're still there in their dotage, still at it. What drives it? What makes these geriatric goals get out of their beds anymore?

I missed the whole thing. I didn't grow up worrying about money and just being as honest as I can be. I never really thought of money as a huge motivator in people's behavior because it never was for me.

What was motivating these people?

Clearly, money is part of it. I was just late to that understanding. We all have blind spots and failures, and that was definitely one of mine. I didn't see how corrupt it was because I couldn't imagine. I would never say something I don't believe for money. I just would never do that. It would never even occur to me to do that. I didn't grow up like The idea that other people were saying things they knew to be untrue for money, I was shocked. It took me decades to figure out what was going on. You would hear people say, Oh, it's all about the money. I'd be like, That's bullshit. We just have different views, different ideologies, different worldviews. No, a lot of it was just about the money, and I just did not perceive that.

But how much money can a multimillionaire have?

Well, I agree. I've never been that. Well, that is absolutely right. First of all, Getting out of debt, I do think, is a massive blessing. If you can get out of debt, it just means you're not controlled. There is an inherent freedom in that. Debt is slavery. We love debt in the United States. We have a debt-based society, lending money and interest. That's the main thing that we do in the United States. I think it's disgusting. I've always thought that. If you can get out of that, it's clearly liberation. But beyond that, is it going to make you happy? No. I mean, I've just lived around rich people my whole life, so I know that that does not make you happy.

But if we accept that money is part of it, it must be more than that. What is it? Because one does end up with fewer and fewer options when it comes to explaining what's going on. It just feels like it does begin to feel as if it's in the service of some darkness.

That's what it feels like. It is in the service of darkness. There's no rational explanation for transgenderism. That's just you're sterilizing kids. There's no upside that could ever justify that. You're doing it for killing people, as the US government has. I hate to say it as a patriotic American, but it's been a force for killing for a long time. What is that? And again, there's only a spiritual answer, I think, to that question. I don't see a rational one, for sure. But I also think it's recognizable in a temporal framework as hubris. It's the belief that you are God, that you have greater powers than any man actually possesses, greater foresight, greater wisdom, greater power. And that is the oldest trap there is. That is the story of history, is people convincing themselves that they're more than human. And that's how you destroy yourself in the society that you lead, for sure.

And so what happens? Has the American Republic fallen?

Republic is it just Something has long gone. I mean, the second you allow an intel agency to murder your democratically elected President, as we did 62 years ago, and then ignore that it happened, it'd be like, I don't think that's really what happened. Shut up. No, it's not a... If you allow unelected bureaucrats to murder the guy that the majority elected? Just by definition, the system is not what they say it is, obviously. But I do think I agree with you 100%, and I agree with our long-deparded President, Dwight Eisenhower, that it really was the Second World War in ways that I don't understand, but it's demonstrable, changed the nature of the country, changed the relationship between the population and its government. Can I just ask you a question that I always think about, UK-specific question? So 1914, UK, England, Britain, whatever we're calling it, is running the world. And doing, I would say a pretty good job. Not perfect job. Pretty good job. Putting in railways and spreading Christianity and being pompous, but basically being a fairly benign colonial power as colonial powers go. There's a war for years. The smartest people in the country are all killed for no obvious reason.

The country is really weakened by that war. The United States becomes a preeminent power in the world by 1919. So it's a huge loss for Great Britain. I would say the first real war, again, for no real reason. 20 years later, your leaders tell you, got to do it again for reasons that are clearly fake. Liberate Poland and then hand it to Stalin. That's not the reason, obviously. Democracy is not the reason. And then the country is really wrecked and the empire collapses and it becomes sad. Is there bitterness about that? Why wouldn't that be the bitterest thing that ever happened in the history of your country? Do they talk about that? They brought us into two wars that just destroyed us. All these cool things that we had, this great society that we had, we made the-I think there is a lingering sadness. But what about anger? Like your leaders said that there was no reason to join either war.

Well, the people Obviously, in my lifetime, your lifetime, the veterans of the First World War, they're all gone. Oh, of course. And the veterans of the Second World War are the endangered species that they are. They are almost all on the way out. And Once the people to whom it happened are gone, then that takes something with them. We're only angry with what happened at one remove, in a sense, because the people who really suffered it are gone. But I hear what you're saying about- I was born 25 years after the war ended. It's so obvious, though. You could say that Britain only became a second-rate power after Suez, which wasn't until '56. '56. You could say that for whatever had happened to us, courtesy of the first World War and then the second World War, it was that shit show in Suez and that affiliation by America, that Britain became a… Only then.

Yeah, but it was dead. It was I would say it's much…

I think you do make me think about something that's not unconnected. I do think that what's happening at the moment, we will not understand what has actually happened here. Maybe in 50 years time, people look back, maybe in 100 years time, in the same way that I would say someone who went through the First World War, even if they were experiencing it, even if they were in the Western front or whatever, with the bullets flying and seeing all of the horror of it, you couldn't possibly conceptualize the impact and the consequences and the significance and the way in which... You You don't live through a period and know that you might suspect that the world might be changed forever as a result of the period that you're living through. But to actually predict what will be the real consequences in 10, in 50 years time is beyond all of us. I think it's impossible. I think part of why people won't waken up to this at the moment and won't confront it is because it's so big what's happening. I think it is going to be like a first World War. Of course. Someone said that the first World War was a set of iron railings between the past and everything else because you could see the past, but you could never reach it again.

And I think, but that wouldn't have been a pardon right at the time. That wouldn't have been a pardon, even as the men were dying.

It was not. My wife's great grandfather, whose picture is right over there, wrote a book about it, His Service in France, and I've read it. Pretty great book. And it's the most cheerful book ever written. He was successful guy in the United States, went over there, fight for something. He didn't understand what he was fighting for, and he was in good mood the whole time. I have no idea.

I think at some point, again, in the same time frame that we're talking about, Second World War, thereafter, I think the world fell finally into the grip of the banks. It fell finally into the grip of those unelected, unaccountable, for-profit groups for whom everything was only about money, money and power. For them, they became anywhere at that point. They didn't care about Britain, they didn't care about America. They just cared about money. I think that has I think we lost in that slow motion consequence of the 20th century or the first half of the 20th century, all of what had been before, that love of country, that patriotism, that identity, I think that was unmoored, unhiched at that point. Something very large and slow moving just began to drift like a great liner that was no longer on its safe anchorage. It's only now with our 20 vision of hindsight that we're able to look back and see that that happened.

When was the last time Britain had a leader who believed the country was more important than the banks?

Well, you'd probably have to go back to pre-1694 and the establishment of the Bank of England. I mean, that's when the bank Bank of England was set up, and that became the model for the Fed in 1913, and the creature of Jekyll Island. But then where do you start? The City of London was established by the time of William the Conqueror. Of course. And there's a state within a state that's like the Vatican. It's a separate entity. People don't fully appreciate the extent to which the City of London is not Britain. It's a separate... It's a separate... It's a separate... It's not a police force. The monarch has to seek permission to enter the City of London. There's a nominated person in Parliament, the City Remembrancer, who most people don't notice, who's there all the time to make sure that the unique rights of the city of London are maintained and not compromised by any subsequent legislation. There's been a long period of that. To get back to a time before the banks had thralled, you'd have to be before the bank of England was given that magical power to create fiat money. That's when all the…

That's when the trouble started. Do you know about the Bradbury Pound? No. That's the great story. Well, you know the… What do you call it? That Abe Lincoln had constitutional script, the Greenbacks. Yes. During the Civil War, obviously, to get himself out of a financial hole. Well, the Bradbury Pound came about in 1914 because there was a run on the banks. War was declared and people panic. People were going to the banks with their bits of paper, the big bank notes, I promise to pay the bearer on demand, the sum of £5, £10, £5. And in those days, you could actually get that transformed into gold. You could get the relevant bit of gold.

It was transferable, had value.

And so the banks had a run on. Now, They closed the banks. There was an extended bank holiday. The bank went scuttling to the Treasury. David Lloyd George was the person they sought out. The Treasury, the government, must have had an inkling that it was happening because within three days, legislation was rushed through Parliament, so they must have had something ready to go. They created Treasury notes. The The first Lord of the Treasury was a man called, I think it was John Bradbury, Bradbury, anyway. His signature was on these notes, and their nickname was the Bradbury Pounds. The banks reopened. The people were still queuing up, wanting to transfer their bank notes into gold, they were persuaded to take these treasury notes instead. People said, Well, what's the value of these? They were debt-free and interest-free, and they were underwritten by the notional value of Britain. Everything that Britain was or is, it's creativity, it's people, it's labor force, it's everything. That's what underwrote the Bradbury Pound. And for whatever reason, people accepted it. Okay, I'll take these Bradbury Pounds. I'll take these treasury notes, not bank notes, treasury notes, interest-free, debt-free. And that saved the day.

The run on the bank averted. Now, almost at once, the banks said or realized, We can't have this. This is debt-free, interest-free mode of exchange. What's in it for us? And so very quickly, they went back to the government, said, Withdraw these Bradbury pounds. Let's go back to the old days. We'll buy government bonds. We'll give you banknotes. We'll call it 3%. 3% interest sound fair? The Bradbury pounds were, I I think the last one actually didn't come out of circulation until maybe in the late... Many years later, I can't remember exactly when the last one came out of circulation. Britain's national debt in 1914, before the war, was about £650 million. By 1918, it was £7.5 billion because the bankers had regained control. But for a moment, for a moment, with the with the advent of this debt-free, interest-free, treasury note underwritten by the notional or real value of Britain, there was a currency went out into general circulation that could have changed everything. Imagine if people, imagine if the banks had been disempowered because they didn't have the power of debt, they didn't have the power of usury, interest, whatever you want to call it.

But they realized we're not having this. So having been got out of the hole of the run on the gold, the Bradbury Pound were taken away. Nobody noticed. There's a war on. And the national debt, that began its cycling up.

Could crypto be a Bradbury Pound?

Well, I I host, I seek to host conversations about Bitcoin and crypto from time to time. I'll make no bones about it. I'm not really sure that I properly... I'm an expert in a position to say whether I think it's the freedom of humanity or not. I hear very strong voices on either side. People say it's a Ponzi scheme and a con and don't go near it. Other people say, No, this is the foundation upon which we will rebuild society. And somewhere between those two polar extremes must lie the truth. I think there are elements about it. Distributed ledger, blockchain. I think somewhere within there, there are profound solutions Because I have asked and had a vague yes, whether or not you could use the blockchain protocol to have, say, a news channel that couldn't be shut down because it's peer-to-peer. The currency exchange with Bitcoin is peer-to-peer, person-to-person, without the intercedence of a bank. Hypothetically, they say, yes, you could distribute information. You could transact. Bitcoin essentially is a transaction information. So therefore, you could hypothetically, you could exchange news in that way, and the baddies couldn't get at it, hypothetically. So the cryptocurrency or Bitcoin and blockchain interests me for that reason.

And although I listen to very strong voices saying, Don't go anywhere near Bitcoin. It's been hacked. The banks have got control of it, and so on, and so on. I think somewhere within that thinking, there there might be some of the answer.

How long until you get pulled off the air?

Oh, I don't know. I do genuinely.

When- If you're living in a country that is trying to criminalize conversations at your dinner table between you and your kids, send you to prison for seven years for having the wrong opinions.

I think it's a bold, not me. I mean, I'm a small fry in these things, but I'm a minnow, so swimming in these waters. But nonetheless, these are bold moves because I think the people that are seeking the control with everything, with digital currency, with digital IDs, with all of it, are cowardly, frightened people. I think we're dealing with, I think we have created an ecosystem that has enabled to thrive the most frightened, psychopathic, parasitic, cacostocratic leadership the world has yet seen. We have created the conditions for them. We've got to take responsibility for the fact that they are our fault. You get the government you deserve. That's true. We can't wash our hands of it. Nonetheless, I think they're scared. Very, very, very frightened people. And what they're most frightened of is everyone else. They're probably frightened of each other. I think there's a line that, will they cross it and do the wet work That would be required. They're operating at one remove from really hurting people physically, really going the length of throwing people into gulags and concentration camps. They're not there yet. Are they ready? Do they have the backbone to actually start?

Not so much people like me, but bigger fish. Are they really going to do that? I don't know if they've really got it in them. As long as people keep their mind- Well, if they're proposing jail time for people who criticize them, that suggests they do have it in them. Let's see what actually happens. I think some of it is brinkmanship. I'm Are you ever persuaded that they've got the cojones to be the authoritarians that they fantasize about being?

Well, it depends on circumstance, right? I mean, once the virus, intentionally or not, got out of the lab in Wuhan, the COVID virus, then they moved immediately to institute totalitarian rule. That will happen again. They're still doing gain of function research, as you well know.

But don't you think- There will be a real virus that escapes. I don't think so. I'm not sure there ever was anything. I'm not persuaded that there ever was anything novel called COVID. I'm not. Covid came and influenza vanished. That's a bit... Really? Now, All the people that would traditionally in their tens or hundreds of thousands every winter would die of the flu. Yes. Nobody's dying of the flu. You know what? This is now COVID. That's convenient. So I'm not entirely sure there was anything new. There was no pandemic. The average age of death was 82, 83, which is beyond life expectancy. You look at the stats, the official government stats for a country like Germany in 2019, 2020, hospital bed occupancy was an all-time low. There was nothing clinically observable that would have given any clinician any cause for alarm in terms of we're dealing with something here, people are dropping like flies. It simply wasn't happening.

Did you have a lot of friends who died of COVID?

No, I don't know anyone who died of COVID.

What do you mean you don't know anyone? I don't know anyone directly. Millions and millions and millions people died.

No one connected to me. None of my people died of COVID. But I know plenty of people have died subsequently of heart attacks or stroke or all the other things that happened once.

Do you know anyone who knows anyone who's died of COVID?

Well, I must do. I must do. I can't think of anyone of it, but I do not know anyone who died of COVID.

It's crazy if you think about it, it's like, I don't know.

I'm not persuaded that there was anything new circulating. There may have been, but it doesn't matter. Even if there was, the facts remained. The data makes clear that the people weren't dying in large numbers. Well, not before the rollout of the jabs. But in 2019, 2020, there was nothing to see here. What we ended up with was a pandemic of testing with the misapplication of PCR tests that were never designed, according to their designer, to be used as diagnostic tools. They're forensic, they're not diagnostic. Everything about it was hinky. The whole thing was obviously, they simply took an opportunity to do something that they were planning to do anyway, which was to use a pandemic to seize control of people's freedom and their money. The biggest transfer of wealth in history. Job done. All of that was achieved. But if we had a pandemic of anything, it was a pandemic of propaganda, a pandemic of lies, and a pandemic of testing. That's it.

Well, it is pretty remarkable that for a pandemic that supposedly killed 10 million people or whatever the number they were signing, you don't know anyone who died from it, only people who died from the vax. That is absolutely true in my case, too. And in fact, I don't know anyone who knows anyone who died of it.

I possibly don't I just couldn't quite as contrily say that.

No, but that's pretty... I mean, we're both in our 50s, know a lot of people. You don't know anybody who died of COVID. I know a number of people who died or were injured from the vax. But at some point, I mean, the Spanish flu was real. Millions of people died, including relatives of ours.

Let's revisit that. Lies down lies in statistics. I mean, numbers are always problematic. When I was at school, and I studied history at school, I remember being told that Stalin said that 4 million Russians, Soviet, had died conquering Germany, beating Germany. It's now routinely quoted as 20. Yes. So the numbers, whatever the numbers are, they go up. And so likewise With the Spanish flu, now I read sometimes that maybe 200, maybe more 200 million people died of Spanish flu. But the number keeps going up with the passage of time. There are grounds for thinking that what people died of was aspirin overdose. Because aspirin was very new at the time of the Spanish flu pandemic. The doctors or the medical establishment, they knew they had their hands on a useful drug, but they hadn't worked out the dosage. They didn't know how best to administer it and at what level. People were literally eating handfuls of aspirin. Seriously? They were taking handfuls of aspirin. People, when they were dying of Spanish flu, their symptoms are not what you would expect from flu, influenza. People had bloody froth at their noses, their mouths, bluing of the lips, which is symptomatic of oxygen starvation.

But those are symptoms of aspirin overdose. Aspirin overdose will cause your blood to have less oxygen in it, hence the bluing of lips. And then the damage to lungs. Are you listening to this, Trudy? And then the damage- I've never heard this. And then the damage to lungs will create this frothing. Now, people were dying of... Well, people were dying, but this far out from 1914, 1918, and given the complication of the misuse on a colossal scale of aspirin. It's interesting, the parallel. Doctors were encouraged to push aspirin on their patients, and they were in league with government and physicians were all working together with Big Pharma to push aspirin as the wonder cure It's the wonder treatment. You've got, well, you end up with many, many dead. Like I say, that lies down lies in statistics. It's hard to know how many people died, certainly not. But a lot of people died. But then sometimes a lot of people die with an influenza. But the way that things got out of control, you've got this complicating factor of people eating fistfuls of aspirin, and it was cheap. People could get their hands They could get their hands on it.

It's hard to know if people were dying of influenza or if they were dying of aspirin overdose.

That's an amazing story.

The Spanish flu pandemic is always quoted as the pandemic. It's happened before, it will happen again. Well, let's revisit. Let's find out. Let's have a clearer-eye view of exactly what did happen.

Knowing that and turning down the vax and successfully fending off the attempts to inject your kids with whatever that was, MRNA vax, how wary are you of taking any drugs?

What's your most powerful adjective, Tucker? I worry about I lie in bed and I think, God, what would I do if I was injured and I needed a blood transfusion? Or if I needed injections or whatever, how confident would I be of what was in the injections? I could be being told one thing and the reality being another, and it might not even be the fault or the action of the person administering it. That's right. What exactly is in that vial? Well, it said, I worry about exactly because Clearly, the AstraZeneca product, which was not an MRNA, it was adenoviral, yada, yada, different. That's been thrown under the bus, but the MRNA products are still there, Pfizer, Moderna. We know that my government have invested hugely in MRNA technology. This is going to be the platform for the future of all sorts, pharmaceuticals included. I'm very, very anxious about what's going to be out there. And as I say, if I required, as I'm sure I will, between now and popping my clogs, I'll need medical intervention and I would be anxious. I tell you, I've traveled extensively, as have you, and in the years before, I've had everything going.

I've had bad reactions to things. I remember being really very unwell after my yellow fever. Me too. I was- Typhoid, yeah. No, all of it. To the point where I thought, God, I was away. I was away from home when the effects of it started hit me. I thought, Oh, my God, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to work. This is dire. I've had my stories to tell about, but I've had I've had Japanese encephalitis jabs and hit this and hep that. So have I. You name it. I was an enthusiastic to be-Well, yeah, you show up at the doctor before heading to Africa or wherever, and they give you a whole list of shots. I thought vaccination was the way to go. Then, of course, they were only able to apply these products by changing the definition of vaccine.

The mRNA technology, specifically, is it-I don't want that anywhere near me.Well, of course not.Ever. But one of the things when the conspiracy theories started talking about these drugs, really at the end of early 2021, they said, Well, they could breach the blood-brain barrier, and they could change people permanently.

They're gene therapies. Exactly. That used to be... You weren't allowed to say that. I was putting that in monologs and having it taken out, but now I can say it because it is.

Because it's literally true, and they admit that it is gene therapy, mRNA.

Imagine if they had gone out to the general population in 2020 and said, We've got an experimental product. It will have some effect on your DNA, but we can't honestly tell you how much, if any. It's not safe because previously pharmaceutical would never, by their own, By their own industry standards, they would not have applied the word safe to cream that you put on a baby's bottom for nappy rash. That's right. You can't call it safe. That's a dangerous word, safe. Effective? No. They knew going out that it wouldn't stop transmission because they hadn't tested to see it would stop transmission. So the whole safe and effective and take this not for you, but to make sure you don't kill loved ones, was a lie. That was lie after lie after lie. And it was only... We know all this. It was only released under emergency use authorisation, probably involving the DOD rather than big pharma in any meaningful sense. They knew going in that there would be an adverse reaction for every 800 doses of every 800 dose would see an adverse reaction. They got pages and pages of what the adverse reactions were going to be that Pfizer tried to bury for 75 years, but wasn't able to do.

We were lied to and lied to and lied to. The question is why. People were almost being thrown in jail for knowing and saying that it was lies.

Well, in Australia, they were. But the question is why, and you wonder, does it change your Do you notice a difference in people who took it?

Well, we'll find out because the biggest human test in history has been carried out.

It's longitudinal.

That's right. We're waiting for the results now.

But what do you think? What's your instinct? You were right before.

Well, I listened very early on to the likes of the German Thai doctor, Sucharabhaktadi, I think his name. He frightened the living daylight. So to me, three, four years ago, And he was saying then, Anyone applying RNA, anyone putting a product like this into people is taking part in the biggest crime against humanity in the history of humanity. And for the sake of your honor, for the sake of your family name, you must walk away from having anything to do with applying this product to anyone. You must, because if you do this, you will be taking part in the biggest crime against humanity. I was thinking, Oh, my God, who is this guy? But there was something very... He was a credentialed, serious clinician, a research scientist person. Why would he be saying these things? He must have reasons for saying these things. He was very early on saying, This is gene therapy. This is going, this could change the DNA of the cells in people's bodies. We already think we're seeing that happening.

The human behavior changed after the Vax, the the inoculation campaign. I mean, it did change. Human behavior changed. People started living differently. Their attitudes changed.

What do you think people have been modified already? Yes, I do.

I have no evidence for that other than what I see.

Specifically, how is it manifesting?

I think people seem much more compliant, actually, and I think they seem broken. Now, how to disaggregate all the different factors is beyond my capability. I'm not God, I don't know. But being locked indoors for a year, bereft human contact. There are lots of different factors. Drinking and drug use went way up. Screen time went way up. But there's no denying that people changed the way they lived and their attitudes really changed. If you have a drug that could potentially change people's DNA, and I think there's evidence that it can, I mean, it can, why wouldn't you see changes in behavior?

Well, again, I say I would simply wait. I will see. We will see. But when it comes to why people- That's the biggest thing that's ever happened in human history. It's the biggest thing that's ever happened in human. It would be the biggest crime against humanity. In terms of changed behavior, I think you also... Yes, I believe, I absolutely said that we may well be seeing genetic change. But people, that part of our conversation earlier, that thing about a test, a sorting of people in a fairly binary choice, to Find out that you got the biggest test of humanity wrong. The big one. Here's the one. You don't know it's coming, but it turned out that that was the test. To know that you... Or to suspect I'm pretty sure I called that wrong. I did that. People have seen that in themselves, and that's a lot to live with. I don't know. Let's say you were lying in your bed at night, family asleep, mom and dad, before three, four kids, and the smoke alarm goes off. And as dad, you suddenly find yourself standing out in the street having fled the house. Before you even had time to think, you realize that your instinct.

It turns out it's a false alarm anyway. There's nothing to worry about. But nonetheless, imagine if... And then you go back in the house. Dad, you didn't come for us. You ran into the street and we were still in the house with the smut. That's the analogy I would draw. So yes, people may, maybe the RNA component of what happened would alter people. But I think people are altered by self-realization, which is a pretty powerful drug.

I completely agree with that. And by the way, in a society that literally sends women to war to defend us, it's so degraded. At this point, the concept of honor is missing. The male survivors of the Titanic live with shame. Of course, you're a man. How did you survive that? Women drowned and you lived? Really? But I think we've lost touch with a lot of that. But that is a feature of nature, of the natural law that you referred to earlier. And so it's real, whether we acknowledge it or not. Guys who are raped in prison are referred to as bitches. You know what I mean? There's something once you submit or allow yourself to be treated as something less than human, it changes you. And of course, being forced to take a drug into your body whose effects you don't know that you don't want is an act of true submit. It is like getting ready.

It's profound. We know- It is profound. Freud and the archetypes and the hero journey. I mean, all these things that we know about that are the basis for so much of our understanding of the human psyche, that every man, every person, let's say, but every man is supposed to go down into the belly of the beast in pursuit of the lost father and rescue, much like Pinocchio does in the Whale, goes and gets Geppetto back out and becomes a real boy. That's the hero journey. We know what we're supposed to do in order to justify our three score and 10 in this incarnated moment in time, we should go on the hero journey and emerge as fathers in our own right, able to fulfill that role. We know that that's the hero journey, and it's right there woven into us. It's in the DNA. To have had your shot and not going into the belly of the beast in pursuit of your taking up your role.

You've emasculated a lot of the population.

Whether or not their genetics have been altered, which they may have been, that self-realization is a damn hard bullet to chew.

So does it strike you that the way that you think about people is influenced by Freud and by people who think about human behavior in non-chemical terms in moral, spiritual terms. That whole way of thinking has disappeared. I mean, that was a feature of our childhoods where people would say, Well, you have unresolved issues, guilt, whatever. You didn't live up to your own standards. You take that with you. Now, it's like you've got a chemical imbalance. We can't even I don't think young people can even analyze human behavior in those terms.

I think it's part and parcel of an anti-human agenda. Yes. That what has been done fundamentally is anti-human, and it's being done to people who see no inherent… They don't know what it means to be human and alive. Therefore, they can be casual and contempluous of people in account of billions because They have got away from the sovereign human being. That's right. And what it means. We've barely floated a dugout canoe onto the Pacific Ocean of the unknown as the human consciousness. But we've already got the transhumanists, not the transgender, the transhumanists who are already preaching that the human being, Mark One, is suboptimal and needs an upgrade via technology. They want to blend humans with tech, digitize, ersatz human beings because the time of the biological human is partly over. But that's a product of the wrong people, not even asking what it means to be human and alive.

Well, it's a rebellion against God, too. I mean, as Christians, certainly, but I think Muslims and Jews also, certainly Jews do, believe that human beings were created in God's image. To deface that image is to attack God. To declare people inherently inadequate, that's a theological concept, I think.

It's bound up with many, as I say, it's going to be 100 years or more. But obviously, you're in 1968, Paul Eirelich wrote The Population Ball. At the same time, actually, Gareth Hardon wrote The Tragedy of the Commons, and they both speculated about the basic crapness and rubbishness of people in large numbers. They'll just make a mess of everything. It was that return of that neo-Malthusian approach to people. There's too many of them and they're not worth having anyway. So this is going to be the ending of us. The predictions of Ehrlich and so on were wrong. You got it completely wrong. I talk to people, I I interview people all the time who are saying, and you'll be across this, that birth rates are plummeting across the West. It's not just in the West. Japan is poised to disappear in 100 years. There won't be any Japanese people. So it's not even a Eastern phenomenon, swathes of populations are not producing enough people to keep themselves going. It's true in Britain and France, all across Europe. It's true in America. It's really bad in America. People are having 1.4, 1.5 children on average, which is not enough to sustain.

People are not appreciating that they are sitting in the cheap seats on a plane that is in a tailspin that may not be possible even if you could get to the controls to pull the plane back into level flight. It may have gone beyond that point. You've got that information out there at the same time as people like Bill Gates and others are saying, We've got to check the human population. We've got too many people. In a hundred years time, There's not going to be anybody here. Well, I'm using hyperbole, but populations are in steep decline, and the explanations for it are existential. It has to do with maybe possibly falling fertility, and God knows what we've done to fertility with these products that we've jammed into several billion people. We'll see what the fertility consequences of all that are in due course.

I think we know.

I think we know. But in any event, there's also people delaying having children. Then so many women, when they do reach a point where they do want to have children, they're now in maybe their mid-30s, their late 30s, the relevant partner is not there at the right time, and so they miss that. There's all sorts of existential reasons, societal reasons for the plummeting.

But they got to work at a consulting firm in the ensuing years. That's not enough.

But what I'm saying is that we know this, and yet the Malthhusians are still out there banging the drum for fewer people. They can't get rid of people fast enough. They can't quickly enough deter people from having more people.

Isn't that genocide? Isn't that what that is?

Yeah, it's anti-species. Again, it's coming down to people, I think, who are not properly invested in the future, and they're certainly not invested in the future of humankind. They're not giving their last measure of devotion to make them sure there's people in it.

There's a gut-level hate. There's a football you probably haven't followed this, but in the United States, the kicker who gave a college commencement speech the other day. In it, he said- Trudy and I watched it this morning.

By chance, we watched it online.

You're deeply steeped in the politics of the United States. But then you saw how moderate it was. He's like, As you grow older, you might want to have kids because that's a source of enduring joy. All these politicians and cultural figures, and I can't remember that check's name, but Taylor Swift, some fake entertainer gets out there and denonces the guy as a Neanderthal and as evil because he suggests that having children may be more rewarding than your stupid career. What is that impulse? Why would you be mad at someone for encouraging young people to have children? That's very weird to me.

I was listening to Jordan Peterson years ago. I'm not claiming that as a badge of honor. Just a fact. I was way before everything that's happening at the moment. I came across him years and years I think it was courtesy of the Joe Rogan experience. He was part of the intellectual dark web. Remember the Sam Harris, Brett Weinstein, Heather Haying, and Jordan Peterson, and so on. I remember being really, very profoundly struck by a lot of the things that Peterson had to say about children and parenthood. For example, I really remember him saying that so many people say they don't want to have a baby because it's going to interfere with their lifestyle. He said, I really have to ask, what lifestyle is it that you can't take a baby with you? I thought, yeah, because we, Trudy and I, from we had our first and then we've got three, they always came with us. They just were there. Then there were two of them, and now there are three of them, and they just went everywhere. It didn't impinge on anything. Obviously, it goes without saying that it made our lives by an inexpressible orders of magnitude richer.

And yet, the abiding message out there is that, Oh, no, there's better things to do than be families. That's antihuman at the basal level.

Well, so then I want to ask you just finally about one of the great trends in the West, and it is only in the West, is the climate hysteria. How do you assess that? That seems part of this larger hole. It's a hoax. It's a hoax in what sense?

Well, there's It's multifaceted. The climate is changing because that's what the climate does, like weather. The climate changes.

We did have glaciers at one point.

Yeah. When they started measuring temperature, we were just coming out of the Little Ice Age, which had lasted for hundreds of years. Temperatures were as low on planet Earth as they'd been for thousands of years at that point. When it comes to measuring temperature, there was only really one way for… Unless we were going to go extinct or go straight into another full ice age, there was only one way for the temperatures to go, which was up. The fact that there has been sustained increase in temperature, well, it would be because it was coming from the bottom of the well. The only way was up. Also, It used to be an accepted fact that increasing carbon dioxide follows a rise in temperature. It doesn't cause it. As the world gets warmer, there's a a several hundred-year lag, and then If there's more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere as a consequence of that warming. To tell people that carbon dioxide is causing the increase in temperature would be like seeing a horse and cart on a road from space and imagining that the cart was pushing the horse because you could see it moving. That would be how wrong you are.

It's the horse pulling the car. And likewise, CO₂, there's more of it once the planet's warmer. By, I think it's 800 is the lag. So there are all sorts of reasons for being aware that this way in which people are being frightened into thinking that there's a catastrophic Apocalypse coming because they've got gas central heating and they drive fossil fuel Mars is a hoax. There's a big complicated picture to do with the climate changing. It used to be called in the '70s, I remember the documentary with Leonard Nemoy. Very well. Talking about we were getting into an ice age. That was just the '70s. And then it became global warming. But then because that isn't holding up, it's become climate change. Well, yeah, of course, climate changes. And then in any event, what's being done in response to it is not green and it's antihuman. As advocates of fossil fuel say, if we are, if we are, let's say we are going into a time of climate uncertainty and instability, that would be the very time you wouldn't want to do away with the ability to cheaply and readily heat homes or air condition them.

That would be true.

As appropriate. I mean, if something's going to happen, this would be the... You do not throw away your matches at the time when you might need to light a fire. Also the wind turbines that now are at the end of their life cycle, and they're just being landfilled. These vast, unrecyclable plastic things are just being buried in the ground. They are being made in any event using fossil fuels. They can't be recycled. Electric cars, that's just a means to get people out of their cars and back onto, I don't know, horses or Shanks' pony or whatever. So it's not green what is being done. The planet, we're making a mess. Look what happens in the extraction of the lithiums and other rare earth metals are required for electric batteries. Look at the child slavery that that entails. Look at Look at the scarification of the planet that's involved in the extraction of those things, the destruction of ecosystems and habitats in pursuit of green energy. Really? Seriously? The one clean green energy that is available, which is nuclear, is strictly verbotim because we've been told that you can't have nuclear energy.

In Europe, you've seen a spade of climate cultists destroying medieval art. It's never modern art. It's always Christian art, I've noticed. But But they've gone into museums and spray painted or slashed paintings. I don't think you've seen any vandalism of private planes at all. If you believe in the schematic, if you believe in the story of climate change as an existential threat, The first thing you would do is get rid of private air travel, but that doesn't occur to anybody. I don't understand. What is that? What are we watching?

Well, you've got that bizarre situation where the rich at the World Economic Forum in Davos and other places are openly saying that because of carbon credits, us, rich people, will buy the carbon credits of poor people that can't afford to go on holiday anyway, and that will offset our private jets and private yachts. You're not using your carbon credits anyway because you can barely afford to feed yourself or your family. So you're definitely not going on holiday this year. So I'll take your carbon credits off your hand and I'll use that to legitimize the perpetuation of my luxurious lifestyle. The hypocrisy of it, the rubbing of people's noses in it is off the scale. And again, it's antihuman. If for one of the farming techniques and the fertilizers that we have, there's very good reason for thinking that half the world's population will starve to death for one of the fertilizers that are made from oil. So they just stop oil.

So you're going to see famine. I don't think there's any doubt about that soon. And when that happens, will people blame each other as they've been instructed to do, or will they finally figure out that this is all manufactured?

Well, I think, again, being absolutely an inalienable responsibility to be positive, I would have to answer yes to that question. More people do. Well, I can say for one, I see it now and I didn't use to. So I've added to the count by one. And Trudy sees it and she didn't use to, so that's two. Our kids do. So that's five. So just in my circle, I'm seeing people waken up on a very personal level. So yes, I do think that enough people are seeing the way in which we are being played. We are being an attempt, a galactic scale attempt to pull the wool over our eyes is going on. And more and more people are seeing it, and they're seeing that people are being uprooted from their homelands and have been for generations, and they are turning up where they maybe ought to be. Instead of people pausing for a moment to think, Why is this disruption happening? They just get angry with the victims of it. I'm not I'm not telling you. I'm sure there are bad lads and criminals and absolutely the people of whatever creed and color that you wouldn't want in your communities.

I get that, absolutely.

But they wouldn't be here if the governments and NGOs hadn't brought them here.

But the Where the picture is, look at the... They're building a bridge in the Darian Gap to make it easier for the NGOs and the WHO and the UN and the rest of them to drive people into the United States from the South. If you can, as I say, I'm seeing it, and more and more people are seeing it. All it really takes is for people to realize that the trouble is not beside you, it's above you, and it's not a big group. Actually, the techniques are old, worn out, transparent from overuse. There's nothing to fear but the fear they saw, I would say.

I can't believe that I am more pessimistic than a Scott.

Well, you've probably got Scottish genes. I do. But that's a zero-sum game, Tucker. You can't. You've got to be. It's like taking your castor oil. It's like taking your... You've got to be optimistic because it's your obligation. It's nothing less than your obligation to force yourself to be optimistic. You cannot go to the dark side until it's all over, in which case it won't matter anyway. But I don't think so.

Neil Oliver, thank you on that.

I appreciate it. Thank you, Tucker Carlson.

Thanks for listening to Tucker Carlson show. If you enjoyed it, you can go to tuckercarlson. Com to see everything that we have made, the complete library, tuckercarlson. Com.