When you leave everything that you've known and you sacrifice relationships over it, it's hard.

I'm so sorry.

It's fine.

We got back from the honeymoon, and they were like, are you pregnant? Are you pregnant? Are you pregnant? I was looking at her like, is this normal? And she's like, yes.

And our setting is, this is what's expected of you. I will look back at my childhood and say there were things that I definitely would have changed. The imbalances of kids. Raising kids is unhealthy. Kids can help out and learn responsibility in other ways.

With Jim Bob, did he ask you questions about, have you dated somebody before? Have you kissed?

Oh, my goodness. I had a 50 page questionnaire I filled out.

It was absolutely cheap. We sat down with Ginger Duggar Volo and Jeremy Volo from the hit tv show 19 Kids and counting. As a duggar, jinger grew up following the cult like teachings of the IBLP. Ginger unpacked her childhood in her new book, becoming free indeed, which she said was one of the hardest things she has ever done. We talk about courting wearing pants for the first time to the time. Jinger found her stolen diary on eBay for $100,000. All in today's episode.

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I wanted to open with kind of a funny question because I was listening to your book jinger, and something you mentioned was watching your first movie together on your honeymoon. So tell me about that. Like, that. That is so, so interesting to me, because on our first date, we watched a movie together.

That's awesome. I love it. Yeah. I didn't watch many movies growing up, and so pretty much any movie that Jeremy asked if I had seen, I was like, nope, I haven't seen it. So he thought it would be fun to, like, let's watch a movie, like, because I just never really did that with him.

Yeah.

And I knew he knew one.

Yeah.

It was like a movie that explained her life a little bit. So.

So we turned on the Truman show and we watched that, and I was like, oh, my goodness, this is my life. It just was so crazy how I think there are different dynamics to that movie that were not so, so closely aligned with my life, but so many things I could relate to. Just, like, people looking into your life, like, you're in a glass bowl, and they're just seeing, like, everything that you're doing. It was just wild. Like, I just could not believe how similar that was to what my experience growing up.

And Sharemi, when you first met jinger, is that how you kind of perceived her life? You're like, she is living in the Truman show.

I mean, as I got to know her and, like, stepped into her situation in her world, that definitely came to mind, because at first, I didn't know much about her life and that experience. And so I meet her, I meet her family, and then I kind of see their experience with the tv show and how it is like a glass bowl. Like, it's like a fishbowl. So, yeah, I mean, I just. I just remember thinking, like, the Truman show is obviously reflective of, like, the rise of reality tv.

Yeah.

And so her family being such a big presence in reality tv. You've got cameras in your face constantly.

Yeah.

And I.

You're brushing your teeth. You're going to the store.

And early on in, like, the early years, it was more. Right.

It was, like, less produced reality.

Yeah.

As you go on, like, it, things start to be like, okay, they'll suggest stuff like, okay, maybe we can go on a date. Like, you guys go on a date today. You know, once we were married, they were like, how about you guys go out and play tennis today? And so we said, that sounds fun. Let's do it.

But after, like, 15 years, they needed more ideas of what to do whenever.

They had run out of normal life stuff to do.

And when you were courting, did they allow you, like, could the camera guy be the, quote unquote chaperone? Or did you still need a sister or brother to be with you?

Cameras weren't enough.

Cameras weren't enough. Even though you got the hard evidence.

We always had to have a chef from there with us.

Yeah. And that was an interesting thing about even, like, that purity culture was, it was. I think it played the rules, not the game, if you know what I mean. Like, it was so focused on, like, the formal rules of, okay, this is how you must have a relationship or conduct yourself that at points, at times, it missed the whole point of. Of what building a relationship is, you know, so that that was a wild ride with the chaperones and all that. But, yeah, I'll tell you this. Like, with the cameras, she's so comfortable with cameras. Like, I think sometimes Ginger's more comfortable behind a camera than she might be in normal life at times, just because it was like, you know, obviously, that's an overstatement, but, like, she grew up with it, whereas I never got that comfortable where they would be like, we're on a date, and you've got, like, three cameramen around you with a mike boom and a producer, and they're saying, cut. And there's extras in the restaurant, you know, having a free meal. No. And then it's like, all right, have a meal.

Talk about. Talk about, you know, your first kiss. Talk about whatever, you know? And they would give us, like, talking points. And so then you just walk through it. And it wasn't staged, but it was, like, prompts. So if we were not. If we weren't giving them enough, we need a little prompt.

Who were these extras that just happened to, you know, be friends at a.

Restaurant all the time?

Just, like, if it was. If it was, like, a set dinner, then sometimes they would do that or put, like, a couple friends who would just come sit in the background at a couple tables.

So we had our favorite. We had our favorite restaurant in Laredo, which is where we. When we got married, we were living in Laredo, Texas. It's called the border foundry, and to this day, I haven't. We have not found a restaurant in LA that's as good as the border foundry. So it was just this incredible steakhouse on the border of Mexico. And so we'd go there all the time, but when we would film there, the restaurant owner would just have his friends come for a free meal, and so, like, they were stoked for that.

That's probably such a fun party thing for those people to bring up. They're like, by the way, I was an extra on.

On episode five of season ten.

I have so many questions for you. So, like, did you intend? Or did I guess, like, when you were growing up and starting to think about, like, getting married, did you, like, know you were going to pursue, like, a courtship type of relationship, or was that something that. And how did you meet a Duggar daughter? Like, how did that whole process come to be?

Yeah, so, no, I mean, I didn't grow up in the same setting as her, so I didn't even really understand the. I mean, I had heard the term courtship because years earlier, there was, like, Josh Harris had a book, I kissed dating goodbye. That was, like, real popular amongst certain, you know, christians. And so I'd heard of it, but we never had bought into that. So I really didn't understand the dynamics of what courtship was, and I definitely didn't think I would, you know, be dating and then marry a girl who's on tv or anything like that. So it was just. It was just pure providence of how I met her. And so, yeah, I didn't really have a conception of it. And here's the interesting thing, too, is, like, I had no idea who Bill Gothard was. I had no idea even the religious setting that she was in. So I just showed up because my buddy Ben Sewald, who married Jessa, is like, hey, come on out. You know, I'm with the Duggars at this conference in Texas, so I'm like, cool. And I'd been to conferences before, and so I stepped into that world, and it was kind of, like, shocking, but initially just in kind of a pleasant way, I was just like, wow, look, everybody's super happy and everybody dresses the same, which, you know, I immediately noticed, like, it was kind of, like Cookie Cutter, but it was a really pleasant experience.

At first, I was just like, wow, everybody has a ton of kids. And I had no idea, like, the theological foundations for that.

Was it an IBLP conference?

It was an IBLP conference, yeah.

Can you kind of describe for those people that don't know what IBLP is like? Just like a nutshell. What is it?

Yeah, for sure.

So IBLP, it was basically that was, like, the program that Bill Gothard started. And so Bill Gothard was this guy who came on the scene in the sixties and seventies. He was promising parents, like, a guarantee for success for their families. If you follow my teachings, my principles, then your life will be a success. Your kids will be a light to the nations. They will help people around them. They will turn out really well. And so with the sexual revolution happening at that time, there was a lot of people, like, concerned for their kids. They're gonna get, you know, mixed up in bad stuff and drugs and all of that stuff. So they were, like, really concerned for their kids. And he said, I have the key. I have all the answers to life's problems, so just come follow my teachings. So it started out where he had some good things to say generally. You know, he would, like, say, okay, if you follow these principles of authority, you know, submitting to the government, your. Your parents, whatever, then your life will be a success. And so parents were like, this is great. Let's go.

And so they would send bus loads of people there. He filled up massive stadiums full of people, and it was a big deal. And so a lot of parents were so well meaning and got mixed up in this. And the IBLP stands for institute and basic life. Principles. And he would fill up these seminars, and then they would take it back to their churches and start teaching or their communities and start teaching these principals, and then he would have, like, seminars that they could host in your area. And so that's kind of how it spread. And his teachings went to, like, even other countries. And he had. Bill Gothard would. He had, like, a headquarters where he would train students. A lot of underage people went there as well, which caused problems.

Whole other story.

It's a whole other story. So, basically, the whole thing was built upon one man and his teachings that were the answer to all of life's problems for you.

And do you think your parents had these fears of, oh, my gosh, what if my kids take part in the sexual revolution and they, you know, start doing drugs? Like, do you think that fear that your parents had led them to fully, you know, follow everything this man said?

Yeah, I can't speak for them and what they were thinking at that time, but I definitely will say a ton of parents were in that place. I think so many of them were really afraid because times were changing. It all seemed so new that there was so much, like, rebellion around in their kids, and they were terrified. And so I think that definitely drove a ton of families into these teachings, and they were well meaning, I think, to start out. And some families would step in for a little bit and see, oh, this is really bad. And they would leave. And other families, the fear drove them to keep going.

Some of the rules with IBLP, it was like, you couldn't listen to rock music, right? No. No. Women couldn't wear pants. I noticed you're not wearing, like, a skirt today. Like, was that, you know, changing from the way you were brought up and changing from the way that you knew the world as a kid? Was. Was that scary the first time you put on a pair of pants or chose, I guess, to wear makeup? I don't know, was that makeup was.

Fine in our house. That was something that was never, like, issue, but definitely, like, a lot of those outward standards that were taught to us. It is modesty, being that you need to wear skirts that fall below the knee. You can't wear sleeveless shirts. You can. You can, like, if you have, like, a normal t shirt, you're allowed to roll up your sleeves, but you can't buy a shirt that has the sleeves already off. It's kind of interesting. So it's like, all these rules that don't make sense. Like, the. The rock music is because you're gonna call the demons into your life if you listen to it. So there was a lot of superstition in those teachings, and it was really fear based and man made rules. And so whenever I realized, okay, I was going to the word of God, Jeremy really helped me a lot, too. Like, he wasn't trying to change me for who I was, even. But I think once he realized, like, okay, this man is saying things that are not even in the Bible, like, let's talk about it. Why do you believe this? And then it was very quickly, like, those things kind of, like, fell off once I realized, oh, this is not in the Bible.

Jeremy had to go through the teachings. Like, he had to go through 60 plus hours of Bill Gothard's teaching before we could get engaged. And so he was listening through that, which was actually super helpful, because then it helped him to realize, oh, this is why you believe this is because he said this. And so Bill Gothard would take, like, a verse of the Bible, and then he would twist it and make it say whatever he wanted it to say, and then make you make a vow to, like, commit to do that. So it was very, like, deceptive in the way that he taught. And so Jeremy kind of just, like, walking through those. Those different teachings, we would pause the video and say, oh, my. Like, let's go back to that, because that is not what the Bible actually says. It's totally silent on that subject. And Bill Gothard's making up a case for something that he wants you to do. And so all of those things, I think the fear that gripped me for so long fell off whenever I realized this man is not telling me the truth. And so I wanted to have the authority be the word of God, not just another man's words that he's just.

Saying, yeah, it really helped me understand her because I stepped into that setting with her family. And I think, like most people, you just go, oh, wow, they have a ton of kids, and they do life this way. And when I started getting into the teachings, I started realizing, like, oh, there's. There's an underlying belief system that's driving this behavior. And ultimately, it was fear based. It was this terror, actually, of God, which isn't like, a righteous fear of God, which is like, this all filled, reverential fear of God because he's God, which drives you to him. The fear of God should draw us to love him and draw near to him. It was a fear of, like, oh, if I screw up, I'm in trouble. So I have to have life sorted out perfectly from what I eat, to what I wear, to what I say, to what I don't look at, which is why they were terrified of outside influences. It was like, if I hear these noises, I'm gonna be infected. So it's like music out. If I watch these images, then I'm gonna be infected.

So if I have, like, a cabbage patch doll in my house, then it could bring harm upon me. Very superstitious.

So it was superstitious fear and that. I mean, you know, from a biblical perspective, that's just, like, radically unbiblical. But it helped me understand, like, oh, that's. That's where Jinder's coming from. And so as I'm falling in love with this girl, and then, like, understanding her mindset more and more, we were able to connect on those things. And I did just start to see, like, she was a woman who was committed to the Bible, like, genuinely loved Jesus. So when we were able to, like, realize and discover who Jesus is, the fear based superstition just kind of fell off.

Out of curiosity, what were some of those, like, specific beliefs that come to mind? That. Or, like, teachings that Bill Gothard had that you guys were like, wait, let's talk about this. And then you're like, we're not aligned.

Yeah, because you literally spent 60 hours, like, learning about all this. So, yeah, I'm so super curious too.

So. Okay, so one of them would be how. How Bill Gothard would use the Bible. He would use it like a buffet line. So if there was, like, one verse, and actually a lot of people do this, he sees one verse, and he goes, oh, I'll use that. And then he'll just build a whole system around it. So, for instance, he would go to the old covenant blood laws, and Israel had all of these blood laws that he gave to the people, and he had reasons for them. He had reasons for people treating animals humanely. And he also had a theological underlying reason for the reason blood is. So. Such a theme in the Bible is because it's where life is. It's called the lifeblood. And so he was showing just how sinful their sin was. And ultimately, all those blood laws in Leviticus are pointing to Jesus, who spills his blood to pay for us. It's like the beautiful, sacrificial, most basic element of the gospel, and so there's, like, a theological profundity to it. Well, Gothard would go to blood laws and start telling people, like, what they could and couldn't do, like a husband and wife or, like.

Like, wild, like, oh, yeah. You need to abstain from being together over these times. And, like, he was a guy who was never married, never had kids his own, and here he was as the expert on what you are to be doing as a couple, and it was, like, wild.

Like a reference administration.

Yeah.

Oh, so, like, a woman's on their period. It's like, you can't be together.

Yeah.

He literally taught sleeping together, but, I.

Mean, not in separate rooms, but specifics.

Of, like, how many days you have to wait and when you could. When you couldn't.

Wild. And so you have a kid. You need to wait this long. I remember hearing that, like, in his.

Wait, wasn't it different if it was like, a. You had a boy girl versus a girl?

Yeah.

So I remember hearing that and going, I wouldn't. You know, that Leonardo DiCaprio meme where he's like, you know, like, I remember, whoa, wait, what? That, that, that. So I paused it and went, oh, wait.

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I was like, he's missed the entire point of why God was doing this. Like, he's missed the story of the Bible. He's looking at these leaves, reading them out of context, and he's just making up all these rules. He's missed the point of what God is doing with his people. So then we would go to, like, a book of, like, the book of Galatians or the Book of Hebrews, and we would sit there and we would talk about it, and she would literally be like, oh. Like, whoa, I've never seen this before.

Another thing, too, was like, adoption. Like, oh, man, it was so sad to see, because he had such a warped view of, like, almost. I mean, there were some families within the system who had adopted, but he was so afraid of you being able to bring other kids into your home, because what about their generational curses that they might have upon them? And so you don't want to bring that child into your home, and because it could be a disturbance to your family, and you might not know what things they're bringing with them into their. Because maybe they were grew up in, like, a location where there was, you know, some voodoo worship going on, and maybe you don't know what their grandparents were into. And so if you bring that kid into your home, then your home could be, like, almost cursed because of it. So it was really harmful.

Something like.

I wanted to say, there was a point in your book that really shocked me. And you mentioned how Bill Gothard taught about this woman who had a ship painting in her house, and she lost her family in a shipwreck. I don't know if that was just a made up story or a true story that he had actually heard of, and he taught of how having a painting of something could change your future and could make your family die in a shipwreck.

Yes, totally.

And here you are, a young girl, hearing these things.

It's terrifying.

I just can't imagine being a kid told that a painting in your room can affect. Oh, my gosh. When I was a kid, I used to do some weird stuff. I was into skateboarding. I would wear these t shirts that had, like, bloody snakes on them and skulls. My parents were terrified. They're like, my son's gonna become goth, and would probably listen to a lot of rock music.

Look at you and your neutrals.

I know.

I wanted to dye my hair black.

That's crazy.

Well, I was, like, I was really into that. Like, I thought it was cool, right? Like, I was just a little boy, and so, man, I would have been screwed if that was true.

But, see, that's the thing, is, like, you did have a generation of kids raised in that environment terrified of everything.

Yeah.

They're just terrified of, like, what's this gonna do to me? Is God gonna strike me down? And he would even teach, like, there would be things that were out of your control that you weren't aware of. And so hard hardships. Like, this is a story he told about a guy who was a business owner, bought a strip mall to invest in, and he allowed a store to be in there, and it had a liquor license, and he wasn't aware of it, but there was a liquor license, and everything starts going bad in his life. He's losing money. Unhealthy. Like, terror striking me. He's going, what's happening? And then he finds out there was a liquor license, and so he gets rid of it, and everything goes good. Well, that mindset is so superstitious. And you're constantly, like, looking around the corner, like, is God gonna strike me down for something I'm not aware of?

It's terrifying. It really is. And it affected a lot of the ways that I looked at the world around me, and I was. I definitely lived in that fear for so long. Even if I was going out to, like, play brimball with my siblings, I wouldn't want to go, because maybe I had this feeling I was supposed to stay home and read my bible. Well, if I go out, am I gonna get killed in the car accident? Like, I had that fear, and it was. It was something that until I was able to realize, okay, this isn't true. This is not based in the Bible. This is not how God sees me then that, like, produced freedom in my life where I could see, okay, I am not gonna be defining, like, what. What my destiny is gonna be based on what's around me and what decisions I make like that.

But as far as Bill Gothard is concerned, like, props to him, because that's a great way to keep people entrapped in your scheme. Like, if you can slave them to the fear of what you're saying, they have to keep coming back because you've got the only one.

Right. Right.

And he built his little kingdom.

Yeah.

And he'll have to answer to God for that. But as far as, like, a cult leader wants to go, like, it's a good strategy to keep people entrapped in fear. And you see that pattern. That's why I think Ginger's book hit such a chord, because so many people don't know who Bill Gothard is, but this. These same kind of lies and tactics are used by people in the name of religion.

Yeah.

All the time. And so you can honestly, just, like, you could even white out Bill Gothard's name, describe what he's done, and put in a thousand other names, and so many people have experienced that.

I'm so curious. Was there a time where something bad did happen to you? Where you maybe, I don't know, did get in a car accident or something happened, and you were like, that? Was it like, I had that. I had that sinful thought and that caused that? Like, did that ever happen to you?

That is a good question.

I can't think of a time where it was specifically like that, but I think it was. For me, it was more just this overwhelming fear. So I didn't ever have an instance where I can say, like, oh, yeah, I didn't think I was supposed to go and this happened. Like, I can't think back to a time where that actually took place, but I always had this looming fear above me whenever I would try to make decisions, just afraid that I would put myself in a bad place where something could happen.

And I think going back to, like, my stepping into this world, I quickly realized early on, like, Ginger's view of God needs to be. Needs to shape, like, shift. She loved Jesus and knew Jesus, but had this kind of ad nauseam reaction to this. Like, God's gonna strike me if I'm not perfectly aligned. And so, as we would study the Bible together, and she would see the beauty of her acceptance in Christ, where God looks at you if you're, if you're united to Christ in faith, he looks at you the way he looks at his son. So if you've had a great week, he doesn't look at you any different. He looks at you the way he looked at you at the start of the week, which is covered in the righteousness of Christ. If you've had a horrible week, made terrible decisions, fallen into sin, he looks at you the way he looks at his son. And for so many christians, they can miss that. And they really do think God is, like, up there in heaven. It's like, he loves me. He loves me not. He loves me. Based on your behavior. And the very gospel is, when you're joined to Jesus in faith, you are covered with his righteousness.

So literally, you are seen and accepted based on him, not you. And when ginger kind of got hold of that, it was like, I mean, she just, like, you could see the weight of coming off of her shoulders.

And I think that's interesting because I think people that hear your story and your upbringing with religion might be surprised that you are still, like, consider yourself a Christian and.

Yeah.

And, like, participate in that way. And I guess, like, speak to people that might have that train of thought.

Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that that's something that I've seen even in a lot of my friends who grew up in the system that I did. A lot of them have wrestled with that because it's so difficult. Whenever you were raised in something that has so many elements of truth on one side, and then at the same time, it's, like, really tough to, like, figure out what is true. So I've said, like, I'm disentangling instead of, like, deconstructing. There's so many who are just throwing their faith away never to, like, you know, they're gonna, like, tear it down to the studs, never build it up again.

Did you ever consider that?

It was so, for me, I was somebody who loved Jesus, and I knew that that was my only hope, and I knew that the word of God was true. And so whenever I realized that these teachings were so warped, for me, it was not an aspect of, like, okay, I'm going to run away from all this because I already had that relationship with Christ. For me, it was like, I could see, okay, this is not true, but I know that the Bible is true. I just need to pull out what was not true, what words they told me that were. They said, this is scripture. Bill Gothard would say, like, okay, here's a verse of the Bible. This is what it says. Like, man. Man shall not live by bread alone, right? So then he would take that verse and he would twist it and make it say, like, okay, therefore, like, we actually do need this kind of bread. Like, he would go back into exactly the opposite of what the verse said and say, we need this specific bread maker. We need to do this. So I would just take that verse and say, okay, that's.

Throw that out. That's not true. What he said about, like, having to eat wheat so many times a week, you know, it's like, okay, no, we need to have a balance in this. What does God's word actually say? What was the context of this? When was it written? Who was it written to? So just going back and learning the Bible again from a foundation of God's word being the authority, not a man's words, speaking into it, that disentangling process has been hard. There have been days where it's, like, tough to work through all that. And it can be confusing at times, but it's also the most freeing, because I know that God's word is true, and that is my foundation. I'm not going to put my trust in a man or anybody else. My trust is just going to be in Jesus. And in his words that he said in the Bible.

Obviously, you grew up in a household where you had 18 other siblings. So, Jeremy, you must have thought, maybe I'm signing up for this. Maybe I'm going to end up having 19 children. Who know.

Did you think that growing up that you would have 19 children?

Yeah. So it's very interesting. That was something that I was always kind of, like, a little bit afraid of, but I was never the one who was like, give me your kids. I'm going to go babysit your kids for you. Some of my siblings are more geared that way, and they're all about watching everyone's kids holding their kids, and I'm all for it. I just wasn't. I just wasn't. I was like, I will do the grocery shopping. I'll do all the laundry. I don't mind, like, give me the chores around the house. I love that. But I was not like, I don't know, I just didn't. I wasn't doing that. So then I was really. I wanted to have kids. I just was, like, really afraid of the thought of, like, having as many as possible. But that was what was, you know.

Just kind of assuming that would be your.

Yeah, that was gonna be it. I was gonna get married and have a lot of kids. And so even on the show, if you watch the old shows, I'm sure I probably said multiple times, I'm just gonna have as many kids as possible, you know? And so I just say over and over, but, like, I was afraid. I was so afraid to, like, you know.

Yeah, but so that's an interesting thing, because one of the major issues, I think, in that setting that she grew up in was they were always taught what to think, but they weren't taught how to think, so they weren't like, she didn't ever actually have the option.

To, like, I was never taught to, like, challenge anything and go through and.

Go, what do I want to do? What does my future. It was like, this is your future.

This is it.

This is what is.

This is where we're gonna go. So my parents were like, I will say, like, I think it was the system that, like, brought a lot of that in.

Yeah.

And so my parents, like, wanted us to, like, be able to do what we want to do, like, hobby wise or whatever. You know, they, like, figure out what we're engaged in and, like, want to, like, come alongside us in that. But it also did provide a lot of cookie cutters within the system. And so you saw, like, kids just all wanting to do the same thing. Wow, this is amazing. You all have the same passions and obvious, because it was such a small box, there was not much you could do.

You can't, like, do drum lessons. That's kind of a.

No, it's like, every is the same thing.

You have more.

Yeah, totally. And then even, like, having kids, that was. It was something that I once I realized that, okay, I don't need to have as many kids as possible. I just felt like, a massive weight off of my shoulders because I just thought, like, this is then kids can actually be. I think it can be a sweeter situation where they're coming in when they're like, when you're like, oh, we'd love to have a kid now. Let's. Let's have a kid. And instead of, like, the burden of kid after kid, you know, I'm like, just getting over having a baby. I'm having another baby. Sometimes that happens, but it's like, it's not a burden. I saw so many moms in that setting who were just beat down. They were having child after child. They were on bed rest. They were so sick. The younger siblings were having to, like, care for the kids for the nine months that the mom was sick with the next pregnancy, and then as soon as she was done, you know, three months later, she gets pregnant again. And it just happens perpetually until she can't have kids anymore.

And the issue isn't, like, kids. Kids are incredible.

Right? Like, and they are a blessing, but it's like, everything in its right place.

Yeah. And it was the twisting of scripture to tell every woman, this is what you must do regardless.

And did you. Oh, sorry.

Sorry.

No, you're good.

Did you feel like you missed out on your childhood because you were spending all this time having to help raise your other siblings? Right.

Like, my perspective now is like, okay, I don't want to look back too far and try to, like, pick apart what I wish I would have had or all of that, because I have to look at my life as a whole now moving forward and say, okay, there were things that I definitely would have changed in some of that. But, like I said, I wasn't one of the ones who was, like, watching everyone's kids. I had two of my siblings who I would take care of and help with their schoolwork, their music practice, help them get their chores done, stuff like that. And I think that looking at that system, it is imbalanced. And I think that parents should be, you know, they should take care of their kids. If you have them, you should take care of them. And kids can help out and learn responsibility in other ways, but maybe not in the motherly aspects of, like, what moms or dads should be doing. You know, you have all these. The imbalances of, like, kids raising kids. I think that I saw that a lot in the system, and I think that that is unhealthy.

And so I will look back at my childhood and say, okay, yes, there could have been things that have changed. Like, we would never do organized sports because we were afraid of influences around us. And so we would do a family sport in the community with. With just people from the community would come and play, and we would all play that together. And I loved it. And so some of that, like, things that maybe we missed out on was, like, the kids would not know if they're athletic, you know, because, like, we're playing sports in the backyard, but, like, you're not on teams, you aren't learning that.

Yeah.

You aren't learning what you can actually do. And so I think that being put in that box, that was something that I was, you know, looking back, I'm like, oh, I wish I would have had maybe more opportunities to explore what I was really interested in in that way, like, you know, so.

And when you were married, but you weren't having kids right away, were you guys getting questions from your parents?

It was like, we got back from the honeymoon, and they were like. And I was like. I was looking at her like, is this normal to just be asking, like, are you pregnant? Are you pregnant or pregnant? And she's like, yes. And our study is like. Anyway, it was from, like, friends.

They were like, they would ask us to all the time. And it was like, oh, the producer.

Every time we sit down for interview, are you guys pregnant?

Or, like, how does that make you feel?

Well, made me feel. She was used to it, I think.

Or expecting it. I expected it because that's just what you do in those times.

I was like, get out of that aspect of our lives.

Yeah.

He's like, that's weird.

Why are you asking us weird?

But for me, I was like, okay, no, this is just what people do. Like, this is the. This is what's expected of you almost.

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So I was afraid of, like, the reactions and, like, people thinking, oh, no, maybe they think that we can't have kids, and, like, that could. That's honestly probably where a lot of people would think, like, you know, if you grew up in that setting, you're gonna have kids right away. Otherwise, maybe you can't. And so. But realizing, like, I think the further away from the system that I got, the more I realized, okay, I want to live my life to glorify God, but I don't also want to, like, be so much a people pleaser where I'm just, like, allowing everybody else to dictate what we should be doing as a family. And I think that that was a balance that I needed to find. It took me a while to get there, took me so many years. And there's still days where it's, like, really hard to, like, do your own thing, but at the same time, it was what brought me the most freedom. And then also realizing, like, okay, other people are watching. They're seeing how you're living your life. Like, people from the system, they want to see, are you willing to do hard things and to.

To step outside of that and do what you're convicted of, not just what you're told to do. And I think that also provided room for other loved ones to, like, follow suit. Well, like, step outside of that system and think for themselves and not fear that they were gonna be looked down upon. Maybe if they did something different or.

If they would see her. And it's kind of like they're waiting for the lightning to strike.

Yeah. And then they're like, you know, as many kids, it's like, maybe everybody else is gonna have. And so, yeah, those things, I think they were. So there's so much fear that will keep you bound if you let it.

Yeah.

Well, did they, like, assume that you were like not able to have kids or did they, were they thinking, oh my gosh, they're using birth control. That's not okay.

I don't know, we just didn't talk.

We waited a year.

So, yeah, it wasn't super long.

But.

I just waited a year. And then I was like ready.

And my approach was just when she says, let's have kids, cuz I'm like, yeah, let's have kids, you know?

Yeah, but I mean, now, like, Evie's, Evie is three and a half.

Yeah.

And that's a lot of time.

Yeah, we jumped into like newly married, but I still feel like we bypassed like the courtship thing, which would be very interesting to a lot of people because I don't feel like a lot of people navigate engagement relationships like that. So what did that look like for the two of you?

Oh, it was. For me it seemed, it seemed like it was gonna be, you know, like more normal because like my family, all of them just did this courtship thing. But then when it comes down to where it's like, it's actually you in the courtship, I think even Jeremy being an outsider coming in, looking at it, and we would talk through like, okay, are we gonna have my ten year old brother there as my chaperone to be with us at dinner or in the car? It was interesting once we were engaged, especially like, I think that's where I started to realize, oh, wow, we actually need time to talk about things that we need to talk about just us. And so if he came out to visit, we were long distance. He was in Texas, I was in Arkansas. So if he flew out to visit for a weekend, he would say, okay, I'm gonna call you when I get home. Or like, if he was, you know, even if we were like in person, we needed to talk.

Because your ten year old brother's there. Yes.

You can't talk about married.

So we never, I never did the. The only chaperones we would use is like we'd go on a double date or something. Cuz I just wasn't gonna do like, no, I wasn't gonna have a ten year old kid with me. Like, it was kind of absurd. Oh, yeah.

And so you'd been like, yeah, I'm sure. I don't know if you've like traveled the world doing that, but you must have just been like a guy, just being a guy. And then you're like, okay, now I need a ten year old on my right, my date with.

And he was pastoring a church at the time.

Okay, I'm, like, doing marriage counseling.

How old?

I was 27.

27.

You were older than me when this is going on.

So that was the thing is, like, I would literally go from, like, pastoring a church. I'm doing marriage counseling. I'm doing. And then step into a setting where it was, like, those rules. And that's where I say it was, like, playing the rules, not the game, was, like, so focused on the rules.

Yeah.

Missing the point of what we're doing, the objective here, which is like. And I told her honestly, and this is why I wouldn't be pro courtship or anything if I need. Because the spirit behind it is good. Right? Like, oh, you want to have purity, and you want to really focus on each other and not get physically entangled and, okay, but if I really need these rules to keep me moral, I'm not a good dude. Like, don't marry me. Like, if the only thing keeping me pure and focused on her and loving her well is, like, a chaperone, I'm not a good person. Like, I need to work on self control. So we saw through those boundaries, and here's the deal. You can get around boundaries if you want to get around boundaries. Legalism and rules never accomplish. It looks like it's going to work, but it never does. What? It actually doesn't deal with the issue. And so ginger and I honestly looked at our courtship and said, we'll make the most of it. I wanted to obviously respect that.

And so, yeah, Jerry was so respectful, like, coming into that setting. He didn't have, like, an attitude about him, which I think I really appreciated that. And I think he didn't even know all of what he was getting himself into. I always tell him, I'm like, he didn't know what you're getting yourself into when you stepped into our world. But he was so good about, like, okay, I'm gonna jump through these hoops because this is, like, what's required of me. And then, you know, we'll have our lives together.

I want to ask how that even happened in the first place. Like, did you. Because you guys met at a conference. Did you say, come back home and be like, mom, dad, there's this guy. Did you ask to court him? Like, how does that even work? Getting started in.

It was crazy. So whenever he showed up there, I met him at that conference, and it wasn't until later. Like, how many months later was that? Several. It was several, yeah. So five or six months went by, and he was talking to Ben and Jessa, and you. You'd visited, like, one other time, came to our house in between then just to hang out with my brother in law because they were friends, and he was like, oh, yeah, I have some sister in laws. You know, my brother had my brother in law. He's, like, kind of few, and so take your pick. So he took his pick, and it worked out. But it was like, what happened was, though, he signed up for a missions trip that we were all going on.

Yeah, I started to like her, and I'm, like, strategizing with Jessa's, like, to know her. She's like, good. He's. She's like, go down the missions trip because, yeah, you have all these guys come and try to get to know these girls. Obviously, there's a wall up because of the tv and all that. She's like, go on this missions trip. You'll get to know my family really well.

And it was being recorded for the show.

No, that one wasn't.

I don't think so. They had already filmed a lot of them. I don't think they.

So I signed up for that. And so that was Jess's kind of a helpful strategy. And she's like, you'll. You'll get to see ginger as well, like, for this. I think it was a week long.

Yeah, we were going for, like, two weeks. I think you only came for, like, the first part.

And so I went like, okay, I want to get to know her obviously better, but I also want to get to know her family and stuff. And so it was organic. It was as organic as it came from.

It was really pretty chill. Yeah. Like, a big missions group with, like, I don't know, 60 other people or so we were able to just, like, be around each other on that trip away from, like, even filming and stuff, which is great. Less pressure that way. And it was awesome, because whenever we came back from that trip, well, he had talked to my dad at the end of that trip. You can tell him about that.

Yeah. And I just expressed interest. And so he wanted to get to know me, obviously, which is, like, a.

High pressure conversation to enter in.

No, I don't. I don't think so. I just. He probably saw it coming a mile away.

Okay.

It's like, yeah, you're talking to his daughter all this time.

Like, a week before the trip.

Yeah.

And we had signed up, like, several months before he. They allowed him to, like, come last minute.

I think Jessup pulled.

So Jesse was like, we gotta get this guy on this trip.

But so, yeah, he saw it coming out I think. But. So I just asked him like, hey, I want to get up to know her. And he was like, yeah, she's great. I was like, I know. And he's like, well, you need to get to know me first. So.

Yeah. What was that conversation though?

It was like a three minute conversation. I remember it.

Oh, pretty sure I would have thought it was like a long cuz. You, you literally watched 60 hours of Bill Gothard.

No, this was later. That was later.

Okay.

Yeah, so that was like, we got our timeline, we zoom forward. So I asked Mister Duggar and then he's like, let's get to know each other first. And then that's where him and I start talking. And he actually asked me soon after to start watching the Gothard stuff.

Was it a vhs tape? Like, how did you get.

Now they had a website, is streamed online.

Yeah, online.

And questions afterward to make sure you actually watched.

Oh yeah, we talked about it. Oh yeah, we would talk on Friday mornings and chat about it. And at first it was interesting because, you know, going back to the whole Gothard thing, I was just like, oh, this guy's got some interesting things to say. It was kind of philosophical. And I remember in one of our first conversations, Ginger and I talking about those, she asked me what I thought and I went, yeah, he's not a Bible teacher, but he's got some interesting things to say. I think that's like my exact sentence. And I think for her, she was like, what?

It was really shocking.

She thought he was.

He was the most amazing person.

Yeah.

You know, but at the time he would.

So that's what Mister got made Gothard effective was he had a cultural analysis which was accurate. It was the solution that got wonky. So he would like, he talked about the rise of humanism and secularism and you're just gone. Yeah, that's right. You know, so those initial sessions I watched, I would at times go, oh, that's a little interesting. But there weren't like alarm bells going off, you know?

Yeah, I wasn't until the further. And you get to the teachings and.

With, with Jim Bob, did he ask you questions about, have you dated somebody before? Have you kissed?

My goodness, bro, I had a 50 page questionnaire I filled out. What?

You're kidding. It was actually she.

Yeah.

So it's like, how far have you been with a woman?

Yeah. Everything.

Every single question. Have you done? Have you smoked weed? Have you drank? All those questions in there, what was the most bizarre one that was like, what is like anything that threw you off that wasn't expected on the sheet.

Probably all of it.

I think it started out like, how many debt?

Oh, yeah. You know, so it was financial, it was. It was moral, it was relationships, it was past history.

It was history.

Oh, it was. View on finances, view on debt, view on family, view on kids, view on. I mean, it was like, was it.

Provided by the lB, IBLP, or did he create it?

Somebody, I think somebody in the IVP.

Yeah, somebody did, and they sent it.

To him low key. It was actually. It's like, I wasn't mad at it because it's a great conversation.

Like, really crazy if it's. I mean, it was crazy, but I'm just saying, like, it actually did end up on the flip side of it and producing a lot of, like. Because, yeah.

Honestly, now that I'm like, I was about to be like, what? I'm thinking about this. I'm like, that's kind of good. Like, if you're marrying somebody that has $200,000 of student loans.

Just wait. If you guys have a daughter, that's a horrible thing.

We could have gone to school at, like, Michigan, right, where it was 60 grand a year, and put all that into, like, that would have all been debt. And then here we have an arts degree. Like, how do you make money with an arts degree when you have a hunt? What is that?

240 grand in debt right now?

Right. That's a good million dollars.

But so here's the crazy way. So, like I said, like, the motivation for a lot of that was good because a lot of couples, this is what happens. Couples get involved physically, they get involved on, like, superficial personality traits. Like, oh, my goodness, we get along so good because we both love the same movies, and they actually get go real serious, real fast with an intense relationship. And oftentimes never actually hit the reality of life and engage on the reality of things that are years down the road. But because it's such a superficially based relationship, they're not thinking permanence, they're not thinking long term. And so, you know, when you think about what a marriage is, when you're saying, I do, and you're saying those cute words, you know, in sickness and in health, well, in poverty and wealth, no, that's real. And life is hard, and life is difficult. And love is not a feeling first. It's a decision that results in feelings, but it's a self sacrificial decision to commit to someone regardless of anything else, no matter what happens. I love you the way Christ has loved me. Which means I love you.

In spite of your failures, mistakes, in spite of whatever life throws at us, I am choosing to love you. That's heavy. And so people who go into marriages, and I do marriage pre marriage counseling all the time. People go into marriage not thinking about the basic foundational elements of life. And that includes finances, that includes moral decisions, that includes children or whatever else. So the front load relationships with questions like that. I'm not saying, like, on second date.

Be like, okay, let's talk about 50 pages.

Like, that's a good motivation. And honestly, like, I have two daughters. Like, I'm putting those guys through the ringer. But it becomes, like, this formalized kind of, like. And that's where purity, culture, I think, went wrong.

Yes, but it's created too formal at the beginning.

Yeah.

Which.

Oh, it's.

Yeah, that's the issue. I think that I saw with it, too, is, like, it's super formal, and there's so much pressure to, like, know if you want to, like, be in a courtship with this person before it's actually, like, known. And probably part of that was too. I don't know. I mean, part of it was we were in the public eye, and so if you bring somebody around that you're talking to, you need to know right away, like, am I going to be in a relationship with this person? Because maybe they're going to film something about us, and then maybe it'll air, and then if we break up, it's more pressure. So we also had that. Yeah, but with the whole courtship thing.

Yeah.

I think that the main thing was, like, there's pressure to know, like, okay, do I want to, like, marry this person tomorrow? Well, I don't know. I need to get to know you. But you also, like, can't be casual friends.

That really freaked me out with Abby, because I viewed relationships in the same way. So I almost broke up with Abby in the first month because I was like, am I gonna marry this girl? I don't know. And it was eating me alive. It was freaking me out.

What?

Because I had that same view. I was like, okay, dating is for marriage. So, like, am I gonna marry her? I gotta decide right now. And it's like, I. She's cool. She's my friend. Like, we really like each other.

I don't know.

That's really freaking scares me. And so I almost. I almost ended it because of that. But I. I'm so curious because Abby was my first relationship. I'm so curious. Was. Was ginger your first relationship?

No. And I was open with her about that at first. Like, I got married when I was 28 and she got married when she was 22. There's six years. So I was. I just turned 28, she was 22. And if I had gotten married when I was 22, it would have been a disaster. Right. I was not in a place of maturity, of spiritual maturity. And so I'd had previous relationships and so, yeah, and she was aware that, but I was her first serious relationship.

So was that hard though, not being cuz you had to keep physical distance between me at all times? You couldn't just like watch a movie with your hand?

I mean, we shoulder, right?

Like, well, we could, yeah, we could like sit on the couch, but like, it was just rules. Like, they just have a lot of rules, so.

But for me, like, I obviously I was pastoring, I was really serious about my relationship with the Lord by that point in my life.

Yeah.

And so I wanted physical purity. I didn't want.

We didn't, like, we. I think they would have been fine to like kiss before we were married, but we didn't like, we followed all the rules that my family wanted us to follow.

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Take a moment. Visit betterhelp.com unplanned podcast today to get 10% off your first month. That's better. Help. Help.com unplanned podcast. Back to the episode. Why did you decide to do that? Because at that point, right. You were 21 when you first met.

Yeah.

So why at 21? Because you were rethinking all these things. So I'm curious. I'm curious why you chose to go through with all that.

Well, because I was still in this, the. In the system, you know, I still had a lot of things that I was coming out of, and the other side was I did want to, like, respect my parents wishes. And I thought, okay, this is a season. And, yes, it's our life, but it's also, like, their wishes. And so I wanted them to be. I wanted them to, like Jeremy. I wanted them to like this relationship happening and there any of those things where I can, like, give up whatever I might want to do. And at that point, I probably would have thought maybe I should, you know, save my first kiss for my wedding day. Like, I probably still believed that. But, like, I think a lot of those things started to fall off later. And at the same time, they were, like, having the chaperone there was not convenient all the time. And that was something that I probably could have had a conversation with my parents and even said, hey, like, I don't really see the same way. But I didn't. I also wanted to just, like, probably because I was working through so much of the teachings and breaking it down, I thought, okay, I'm just gonna work through this on my own right now and not talk much about it.

There was never a desire to be disrespectful or, like, we. Even if there's things, it's like, oh, we should do it differently. Ginger and I both were totally ready to lay down our rights and say, yeah, we'll follow your wishes.

Yeah.

And knowing, like, I knew I was falling in love with who she was. And so the superficial things, even, like, I didn't press on her not to wear skirts or she came to those decisions on her own. And I really wasn't that concerned about it because I was in love with her. And so I knew, too, like, hey, the more we live life together and the more she's grounded in the word of God, some of this stuff will just fall away. Like, because it doesn't. It doesn't really have any. It doesn't have any teeth to hold her.

And I think you saw a lot of that, like, even talking about the teachings and stuff. And I I just, like, had a light bulb moment, you know, I was like, what is.

Yeah, I knew she got it. Like, she got it.

You know, my eyes were open to how bad the teachings were that I was in, and I really wanted to come out of them. And so I think he saw that, too.

And I wasn't in a rush to, like, be like, oh, can we change things? It was kind of like, hey, I know who this woman is at her core. That's who I'm marrying. And if we need some chaperones, it's like, sure. And I'm gonna do everything to respect her father and respect her mother. And I'm not trying to come in here, like, you know, this. This big, you know, shake things up. I'm gonna be respectful. And honestly, that's how I'd want somebody to approach me. For my daughters, like, even if I have rules they don't agree with, it's like, hey, man, that's my daughter, and I want you to respect that. And ultimately, yeah, I think. I think I wanted to have integrity through that whole process.

It's really commendable.

What was it like the first time you wore pants in front of your family?

I can't remember when the first time was.

I didn't know if that was a big moment.

I know the other day was last. No, it was probably, like, maybe, like a couple years. And after I started wearing pants, because, I mean, we live far away from them.

Oh, okay.

But, like, the first few times I went back, I was not wearing pants. I wore a skirt just to honor, just to. Because it was. Yeah, it was just, you know, I knew that that's a big deal for my family, and I didn't want to, like, my heart is not to rub anything in anyone's face and be like, I'm doing this. I'm doing my own thing. Like, I ultimately want to play a long game of, like, showing them that, okay, I love you. I know that we disagree on a lot, but I want you to see that I'm walking with Christ and this is what I'm doing. I don't feel like it's a sin to live my life in this way, to do what I'm, what I'm convicted of now. And I want them to see long term those things, but I I don't have a heart to, like, rub it in their face.

And that's where I. About Ginger's process, like, with all these things that seemingly seem insignificant, like pants or something. Ginger's heart has always been, I want to honor my family. I want to respect them and love them. And ultimately, I want to have a sweet relationship. I don't. So there's never been a mindset of, like, you know, oh, I'm free, and let me. So even when we approached those topics, it was always thoughtful. It was always, let's have a conversation. Let's explain where we're at. And it wasn't like we got married. And then she went, okay, I'm writing a book. It was, that was a 6567 year process of her going, me living my.

Life and seeing, like, okay, now I want to share this story because I see it's so, these teachings are so damaging, and coming out of them, it made me want to, like, speak because I could look over and see friends and loved ones who are being so harmed by this teaching all around me, and I can't just be quiet.

And did you have, like, did you think through the conversation, call up your parents and tell them, hey, I'm not wearing parents, or was it one of those things you're like, I'm just doing this, and then they find out, yeah.

Just like you said, just having a conversation with them.

Oh, you did? You felt the need to, need to call them up and let them know.

Because it's a big enough thing in my family. Like, that's huge. It might seem so small. Like Tara said, it. It seems so insignificant to so many, but for my family, that was massive. And so I wanted to let them know, regardless of how things go. Like, I just want to be, like, be able to share that. And I don't feel like I have to share every little thing with them now. Like, even looking at our lives, we are living our lives. However, one, we're not like, oh, I have to call my mom and dad and tell him, okay, I'm going to do this differently. But that was, like, one of the first things. And also, I think the big thing is, just because we're in the public eye, I knew that there was gonna be so much that would blow up. You know, if it's like a paparazzi photo when we're out, this taken, okay? That happens all the time, so, like, let's just be ready for it. I'm just gonna tell them. And then that way, they know, and they know that it came from a heart of, like, hey, this is what I'm.

I feel convicted of or don't anymore, you know, and they can just know from my heart, and then we'll move on. And so that's kind of how it was with a couple different things that I felt convicted of, whether that was like, getting a mortgage on a house, like, because my dad's in real estate, I was like, well, let's just run this by him, and we're going to just tell him what we're doing. Like, not like, hey, what do you think of all. What do you think of what we're doing? Sometimes there's an element of that. Like, we asked our other, like, counselors in our life at that point what we should do, and they were like, yeah, go for it. And so I just wanted to include them on a couple of those things. But as we've moved on, like, we have our lives here. We're established, we have a great community around us, an awesome church that we're a part of and love it, and so, like, we'll have other people that we're asking those questions to now. And, yeah, I think it's a. It's a healthy place to be, but I just always wanted to show them that I loved and cared about them, even if we have differences.

Wow. Yeah. I did not think through, you know, obviously, it is a big deal, but, yeah, just wanting to tell your parents, hey, I mean, I respect you calling them and telling them that, because you obviously didn't need to do that, but just, like, caring about them enough to call them up. How does that, is that frustrating? When something gets picked up in the media or. I'm sure there's been so many articles written about, like, we've never dealt with paparazzi. We make tiktoks. Like, we don't. We're not paparazzi people, but you've dealt with that. And so it must be really frustrating when people twist a storyline or try to paint you out to be somebody. How does that make you feel?

I don't know. I think just having grown up in the public eye, there's a certain level of realizing, okay, this is just our life. And it's not like we have this crazy amount of paparazzi following us every single day. There were seasons where it was wild like that. And it's ultimately I realized, like, whatever they say, they're just. There's always going to be a naysayer. There's always going to be someone. If it's a comment in your social media, all of us experience it. You know, if it's a friend saying something behind our back, whatever it is, at the end of the day, I just want to let it, like, roll off my back. If it's something that's negative now, if it's something that's legit, then that's where it hurts worse. Like, if it's kind of, like, twisted, you know, it's like, oh, Ginger did this, and she's doing this despite her parents. I'm like, no, I am doing, like, I'm gonna wear pants. But it's not to, like, to make them mad. Like, those things bother me if it's, like, about my family or if it's about my kids. So, for instance, we have kept our kids off of social media.

That's something I felt like both of us felt, like, really inclined to do. And so we showed felicity at the beginning for a little bit when she was small, and then I just really felt like, I don't want their faces out there. I don't want them to have to, like, just be a part of this, because I was. And I said, like, if they have, you know, want a following later, they can go do that for themselves when they're old enough to decide. But that was something we felt convicted about. Well, then all these articles pop up about my youngest, Evie. They were like, well, why haven't you showed her? You know, like, you don't show her face. Does she have a medical condition that you're ashamed of? Like, what's the thing that's wrong with her? And so you'll still see articles about that, and it's like, you know, if you don't show them, then they're like, oh, this is crazy. They always think that we have major marriage issues if we aren't on social media for a couple months. And I'm like, no, it's just because, like, I'll do. I, like, push through social media, do stuff, you know, and then I'll get burnout.

So then I just back off, and I'm like, it's fine. I won't do anything on social media.

For a few months, I've been taking a picture together.

I just like, yeah, but it's like, because you're not because you've lived your life in front of them for so long. There will be a few, just a few people who will write up all this stuff. And so those types of things now we've just like, we just kind of laugh it off and like, oh, that's funny.

We've had people on the show that have been a part of, like, family vlogs on YouTube. And one of the siblings decided, hey, I don't really want to, like, be in the videos that much. And so the pantry parents respected that, you know, didn't have in the videos, and same thing. Their audience was like, oh, my gosh, they hate that kid. It's like, what is the drama? Oh, my gosh, they don't like their kid. And so I find that so fascinating that they kind of did the same thing, did that with you guys.

Yeah, drama sells. I mean, it's just, you get clicks, the more clicks you get. The Internet has changed that for journalists because. Because now it's about clicks. You can actually measure how many people viewed this, how many people, and then they see, like, all these negative headlines get thousands of more views. And so it's not genuine journalism. It's like, journalists who fail journalists like journalism, but it gets clicks because the more audacious you can be and then obviously you have the laws in our country really protect the journalist from defamation. So it's like, you really can't. And so it's, they're just after clicks. And so we understand that. And so it kind of rolls off our back, like, yeah. You know, early on in our relationship, we determined, and this is like initial. Now we'll read some headlines, but, you know, just pops up. But early on, I mean, our engagement was on magazine cover or whatever, and I was just stepping into this world. We were just like, we're just not gonna read it because what happens is the good headlines. And I guess this is true of, like, comments, too. Like, if you put out a video or put on a reel and you read good comments, you're like, oh, yeah, it can easily go to your head.

Yeah.

And puff you up. But then the negative ones cut to your heart and, like, tear you down.

Yeah.

And so you find yourself on this roller coaster of people's opinions. And some guys, like, eating Cheerios in his mom's basement. And all of a sudden, like, my emotional state is being affected because he didn't like, like the way I put the car seat in the car. Yeah. And so you just go, I'm just not gonna read it. Like, I'm just gonna avoid that. And I was told that, you know, playing soccer professionally, it was like, do not listen to the blogs. Like, do not go on Twitter. Do not, because you'll have a performance and people will just rip you apart. And so it's better just to keep your headspace, you know, on reality, when you're.

When your life is so public and you're on a tv show, I'm curious, like, was there a point where you're like, are we gonna get, like, we're gonna see some money out of this? Like, was that a. Was that a conversation that you had with the producers, your parents? Because counting on was a, you know, was a show that you guys were very much a part of. So I'm sure you probably had to make some sacrifices for the show and to make that happen, right?

Yeah, that was. That was interesting. The dynamics there. We chose, again, we chose not to make money an issue, because once you mix money and family, things get complicated real fast. We understood there was issues with the money. That show was making a ton of money. But Ginger and I just both determined we're not gonna make this an issue. This is. Even though there. This might be a hill that we can fight on, we're just not gonna fight on that hill.

We had. We had conversations, but we just kind of, like, at the end of the day, it was like, okay, we'll just do our own thing. Money somehow.

And so we determined, I mean, through counsel and talking to others, too, like, we're just not gonna fight that battle.

Gotcha.

And so if some came in, we were like, great. And if it didn't, we're just. We just honestly just said we're not gonna fight that battle, because we just knew, honestly, we were playing. We saw bigger issues. And I think there were some issues that seemed to be like leaves on the tree. But the root of the issue was deeper and more theological, and ginger had a conviction. I want to speak to the deeper issues.

Yeah.

And I don't want the others to get in the way of my voice on that.

Yeah. Cuz for me, my heart really is in all of that. I want to. At the end of the day, I want to have. It's not about, like, just going over the issues and, like, just covering them up. That's not the thing. We talk through a ton of issues and work through is hard, you know? And at the end of the day, it's like, I want my loved ones to see, like, to come out of these teachings. And so I want to be helpful to them to, like, get them out of this system, to get them. Like, that was my drive. And so I thought, I want to be in a place where I can still talk to them and still be in their lives. Like, I don't want to be alien. Like, yeah, I don't want to make unwise decisions to where it would be tough to do that later.

And not to say that those issues shouldn't be addressed and then being addressed have been addressed properly. It was just the avenue, just the timing, too.

We just thought thing, because, like, we did have conversations about a lot of things. Not easy. Yeah. But I think that our heart in all of it was just to make sure that whatever we were doing, that we would be living as we wanted to as a couple. And then from there, like, my goal is just to, like, reach my friends and loved ones to, like, pull them out.

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You know, there were, there were times where I was like, okay, I'm. We were done, we were done filming, right? And, and it was tough. Like we wanted to be, you know, have our kids off of tv or things like that where there were aspects where it. It was things that we wanted to do. And we realized like, okay, we might not be able to get everything that we want right now. Like, it's not possible. And so I wanted just to play a long game with my family relationships to preserve those, to be able to be a good influence on them, to like, get them out of these teachings was my goal. So like, even when I wrote that book, right, like going into that, I was like, maybe I shouldn't write this book because family relationships might be harmed by it. They might think that I'm doing this out of spite or sharing my story for another reason. If they think like, oh, maybe this book's gonna do well, so I'm gonna share my story and make money off of it. I didn't want to make that an issue. So I said, well, I'm convicted that I should write this, so I'm going to do that.

Even though it's hard and it was the hardest thing I've ever done, but it was the right thing to do. So I'm not going to sacrifice conviction on what I think I'm supposed to do based on what other people want me to do or not say, you know, but at the end of the day, when it came to, like, the show and all of that stuff, I was like, I'm going to set that aside for the opportunity to be in their lives and to be able to speak into their lives in a positive way to hopefully help them come out of these teachings.

So writing the book, praising that as the hardest thing you've ever done, I quite honestly, listening to it, like, I've assumed that it probably was hard, but for it to be the hardest thing you've ever done, what? Like, I guess elaborate on that for me, which, I mean, the more I hear you talk about, I'm like, okay, duh, no wonder this was tricky. Like, this is your whole life. This is everything that you knew. There must have been a lot of pain intertwined with all that. So I guess talk.

I think just because of the system, it was my life. It was everything. So if you're just in, like, sorry, no, you're okay. Usually get to this emotional over this, but I think it is painful, like, when you leave everything that you've known and you sacrifice relationships over it, it's hard.

I'm so sorry.

When you sacrifice relationships with, like, friends, people thinking that you're doing the wrong thing by speaking out, it's hard because it's like, especially being in such a tight knit community where those are your people, and I was building my own community outside of it. But I did not have even the strongest community when I was in that place of starting writing. So that, that aspect of, like, having a few close friends that I was starting to film, you know, get friendships with and having a good community around me was just beginning in a new place because we had just moved, you know, to LA. And then writing that and realizing, like, okay, if I write this book, I could really just cut off this whole all I've ever known. And that was the side, the risk that I had to take. And ultimately, in the end, yes, there have been some that have, that I probably won't be close to because I wrote that book. But then at the end of the day, I realized, like, okay, I have also been able to help way more people than I ever would have if I lived in that fear of being, like, in the comfort of, like, where I thought I was.

It wasn't actually comforting because I was living so gripped by that fear of, like, I can't ever say anything, I can't ever speak out about this because I just knew where that would lead me. You know, it would leave me in a place, like, with no one. But ultimately, that's not what has happened in this book. Writing this book has been the best thing that I've ever done because it's also helped me to grow. It's helped me to realize, like, okay, I want to be a voice to speak up whenever it's hard. And I want to show even others who are in that place to be willing to do the hard things, be willing to step outside of that harmful theology that you might be in right now. Do the hard thing now and you won't regret it later. And so that's something that, even for my kids, I want them to see that it's not best to take the easy route. You know, it feels comfortable in the moment, but you're going to help more people if you are willing to sacrifice yourself in that way.

And I know your book has been an inspiration to so many. I'm sure people tell you that and write reviews about that all the time. Something I'm curious about is, like, in choosing to write this book, was one of those tough conversations you had to have, probably with your parents?

Yeah. Yeah, I had to share with my parents, and it was. Yeah, it was hard having those conversations with them, because ultimately, I chose to write my book from a perspective of the theology being the drive driving force, because I thought, if my mom reads this, if my dad reads this, if my siblings read this, how are they gonna take it? I don't want to, like, not talk about things that need to be talked about, because they can be offended at what I said. That is true. Like, you can be offended that I'd say that Bill Gothard is a false teacher, but I don't want you to be offended over a petty thing that I might have said about you. So I chose to keep it focused on the issues of the teaching that I was raised in to keep it more broad, like, where if anybody reads this coming out of a harmful teaching, that they can be brought out of their teaching, too. And so that's the perspective that I wanted to take. And I told them that from the beginning. I think that was something. One more conversation that I had that I thought, this is needful to share with them what I'm writing, and they don't have to be happy about it, but it's what I need to do.

Was that hard to, like, weigh that versus, like, you know, scripture saying honor, honoring your mother and father? Has that been, like, a really hard thing to, like, separate?

Not for me. I don't think that that was an issue, because I am honoring them. Honoring doesn't mean obeying. It doesn't mean doing everything that they say. And as a couple, we are our own family unit. And so I need to love and honor my parents, which means respect them, but I don't have to bow down, like, everything that they say I need to do. And so that, for me, was very clear. I had clear conscience going into that, writing this book, thinking I'm honoring them. I even said, I'm grateful for, you know, my childhood. It was not perfect. I shared a lot of difficulties that I struggled with throughout my childhood. But at the end of the day, like, I'm grateful for my parents. I love them. We have differences. Everything's not perfect between us. But I think that at the end of the day, I love them, and I know that they know that. And, yeah, I think that it's. It's good that we're able to speak out, especially, like, being in a public place. You don't have the option, I guess. I don't know. You have the option. You don't have the option to just stay silent, like, because this is some teachings.

These are the teachings that I promoted when I was on the show. I promoted these teachings as being good. Courtship is being the option. Wearing these clothes as being the option. I wrote a New York Times bestselling book with my sisters that talked all about Bill Gothard's principles. And so I needed to correct what I had said. I needed to share where I am now. And so that was what I was really convicted about. And even going into that sharing with my parents that I've grown and I've changed, and this is where I am now. I'm gonna share this, and I hope that you'll understand.

Does that worry you, that that book, I'm sure there's still copies out there. Like, does that ever worry you that people could come across this book and be like, well, jinger Duggar said this.

So I still get royalty checks every once in a while. It's like, you know, pennies, but, I mean, it still is. Like, it's funny. It's really funny. I don't worry about it too much because I think it's like a thing of the past. And I think that if anybody wanted to see that book, I'm like, yeah, it's a shame that I wrote it, but at the end of the day, I could only, like, start from where I am now and move forward.

If you don't mind me asking, like, what does it look like now, navigating a relationship with your parents? Like, do you talk to them every x amount of days, or, like, do you see them at certain events? Like, how does that. How does that look now with you living out here in California, which is obviously a lot further away than I think everyone's back in Arkansas, right?

So, yeah, it's. Being far away from family is like, you know, they're always bittersweet things about that, right? Like, I wish I could be there with my sisters when they're all hanging out or whatever, but it's also been healthy for us to just be away and be our own family and grow and learn together. And then, like, I will. I will. Like, we're on a family group message with my family, and so there's always something going on, so I can see what my family's up to. I try to call my mom regularly and talk to her and see what she's up to. And then different siblings. Like, I talk to all of my older sisters often. Like, we'll just FaceTime and catch up. Big family dynamics, even make that difficult. Like, I feel bad that I can't talk to all my siblings all the time.

What is that group chat like, with 19 kids?

It's wild.

Two parents. That must be. I mean, you must be getting the ding every, like, five minutes on there.

I mean, yeah, seriously. But I just silence it and then I'll look at it. You know, at the end of the day, I'll see whatever they've posted, but it's like, whatever's going on. Like, the other day, tornado. Tornadoes were going through, and so we were just looking at all of the stuff. They're, like, posting pictures of clouds and, like, you know, texting videos of the damaged ones that came through. They were all fine, thank the Lord. But, like, it's stuff like that, right? Whatever's going on around them or, like, news articles that pop up, they'll send out whatever it is.

My family's in Missouri, and Abby has been cracking me up because my dad, she's pointed out my dad will always send messages about the weather. You mentioned the tornadoes. I'm like, yeah, we knew about the tornadoes because my dad told us.

It's a family group chat thing. Every family group chat has a spouse.

Allowed in the Duggar family group chat, because then that could really crowd it.

It's huge. Yes.

So the spouses are in it?

Yeah. Well, we have. They have tons of them. So, like, we have a. We have, like, girls one. You know, there's a workout one that I'm on. There's, like, the big family one. So they need.

Right there.

Yeah. There are so many. There are so many group chats. I can't keep up with all them, but, yeah, it's just another way to, like, kind of stay in touch with what's happening over there. So, yeah, it's good. It's good.

I keep having this intrusive thought about you having a J name as well, being a Jeremy.

Mm hmm.

And I. There's not a Jeremy.

No, there's Jeremiah. Okay, so that was too close. Yeah.

I like this girl. And it's like, oh, you have a.

Start to get weird. If, like, all the other brother in laws have James.

That'd be a little weird.

I am curious, like, do you know why your parents just. Was it just because they liked all j names?

Well, they started out, and they had my oldest brother, they named him with J, and then the twins were next, and they named them Jan and John. And then after that, they thought, well, if we just have one more kid, we don't want them to be left out. So it started out because they thought it was cute for the twins to have matching names, and then the oldest already had J name, and then Jill was next, so they couldn't leave Jill with, like, Sally, you know, like, what would that be that they thought if they just had one more kid? And then that just continued.

A question that's been in the back of my brain for, like, 45 minutes now. Because I meant to ask it earlier because we were talking about Bob Gothard, and I was like, wait a second. Okay, you literally met. You met Bill, right? Like, he came over to your house.

When you guys were kid. He knew. He knew who we were, so we were, like, friends.

That is crazy.

Yeah.

Like, because I'm. I think of this guy. I'm obviously, he started this massive movement, and so the fact that you had him over at your house, that was just like, whoa, okay.

I have it in my journal. Oh, yeah. I was. I was looking at my journals recently, too, and I realized, like, I wrote down in my, like, kid journal that he came and played foosball with me, and I think I lost. Did I lose to him, like, playing foosball?

You said he did lose. You said it in your book.

Did I write it in the book, too? That's right, I did. That's why I had it out, too. I was reading it, but I. I played foosball. See, I. My memory now, we would just interact because we would go to his headquarters for, like, girls retreats and stuff, and then we would talk to him. We'd see him at conferences. And I think because my family was, like, poster family for the IVLP for a while, then we had a closer relationship with him.

Is it still around? Is. Are they still having conferences?

They still have conferences. Bill Gothard's not. He's not, like, over it now, but they definitely still have conferences going on.

I assume that it was over. Like, I watched the documentary shiny happy people, and I assumed that this was something of the past.

No, so it's heyday is past. Like, it's.

Yeah, but it's.

But it's like, it's interesting because you'll see movements like that in evangelicalism, where, like, the heyday of filling stadiums is gone now. They're, you know, fledgling and struggling financially, but. But the influence of those ideas permeates and so a lot of people today would be really influenced by those ideas and have no idea the formal introduction. So they wouldn't know his name, but they think the way he thinks because it's permeated churches or whatever.

And you mentioned your diary. Something that really struck me in your book was the fact that someone put it on eBay or something and trying to sell it.

Wild story. So this was back whenever the show was, like, in its peak stage. And we would often just have random people come visit us. They would, like, email, and they would say, can we come visit? And so often it was families. Sometimes it was just individuals that would, like, watch the show and they would email us and we'd just have them over for tater tot casserole dinner. And it was great, you know, so we had lots of random people that would just come into our home, take it, like, always giving house tours. And then there was one time, it was, like, over the 4 July, we had quite a few people who wanted to come visit us, and one of them was this girl. And she said she was, like, a college student and wanted to just come see our family. And so my parents were like, well, you can come on the fourth because we're gonna have, like, a lot of people have a big party. So she shows up and somebody gave her a house tour, and she had a backpack with her most of the day. And she, when she went on the house tour, I guess she just stole my diary out of my nightstand.

And so, yeah, she took it. And it wasn't until a couple months later that somebody emailed my dad. Like, one of our friends was like, hey, I think that ginger's diary is on eBay. And. And he was kind of, like, laughing because they were like, yeah. And it's like, for up for $100,000. And so he called me upstairs page over the intercom, and I ran upstairs, realized, like, oh, my goodness, I'm so mortified. It's my diary. I was not mortified because the details, the content was. Nothing was private that should be, you know, kept secret. It was my handwriting. My handwriting was awful. They opened it up to the page where I had, like, written with very sloppy handwriting. And then I, like, blacked out a section, and then below was, like, the worst looking handwriting ever. And so I was mortified, you know, it's like, what? I don't know, like a 14 year old when I saw this. And that was from when I was younger. And so I was like, how could they get that one? How could they get that diary. But we ended up figuring out who it was and told her she had to send it back.

And she did.

Well, eventually. Yeah. Or she would be prosecuted. She wouldn't send it back at first. Yeah. And then she's like, okay, I'll send it back in the paper cup I drank out of. Do you want that too? Like, little attitude. And she stole the book out of. She stole a book out of our, like, book cabinets with doors on them. Just a random biography she took. So she sent that back to.

So weird.

Bizarre. And then get this. She emails us later and she says, okay, I would actually like to come back to your house because I want to bring a busload of people back who are just like me. What would you say?

I would say heck to the no, is what I would say.

Yeah, she could stay on the couch.

Are these people in prison?

Like, she could sleep on the couch.

Are these a bunch of thieves that you met while you were books?

I know, I know, I know. People just like me. And we were like, no. So most of the people we met over that time were really cool and nice. It was kind of interesting having strangers in our house all the time. But, yeah, that was just life before the gate at the front of my family's house. Like, we didn't have gate, so people would come down the driveway and knock on our front door.

Was interesting because it doesn't seem like you made much money from the show. Have you considered re putting up one hundred k? I could think about it.

Well, with inflation. Let's move.

200K you could probably get there.

Was any bids, though?

No way. So insane. But it was hilarious.

Yeah.

Get a laugh out of it now then. It was creepy. It just like such an invasion of privacy that is happening. Creepy. Not knowing who took it for a while. That kind of scared us.

Okay, so obviously, I think we not trust.

Yeah, totally.

I think it's clear that you guys probably won't have 19 kids. But where. Where are you at now with that? Where are you on the. On the topic of children? Because you. You have two right now.

Three and a half is a long time.

I know. Three and a half. And then we have a five year old. She's gonna be six soon. And, yeah, we're talking about it. So we've thought, like, initially, I think we said three to five kids, but now we're like, okay, we think maybe three, two or three. So, yeah, we'll let y'all know. We'll let y'all know.

Felicity has been drawing a lot recently.

And oh, my goodness.

She drew a little picture of our family, and it was mom, dad, her, Evie, and a little brother.

Brother. And then she was singing a song in the car.

That would be enough for me.

All about brother. She was like, and Eddie and mommy and daddy and our little brother, and I was like, oh, no.

Well, you better.

You know something we don't know.

You better get rid of that painting, though, because it could end up happening.

Oh, no.

Wouldn'T mind.

I don't know. Yeah, we'll see what happens.

Boys are really fun.

Yeah.

Is there one person that's like, let's keep having kids, and then there's one else who's like, let's not.

It's just about like, yeah, we'll just. We'll just see.

Yeah.

Like, we don't know.

Gotcha.

We're just enjoying the stage, though. The kids are so much fun. This is such a sweet stage with them.

I love that. Yeah, that's sweet.

Well, we're so happy for you guys. You just seem. You seem like you've got things figured out. You both are. Sighs you're so good at speaking. Sorry to interrupt you. You're so good at speaking. You can keep talking.

Sorry.

I'm inspired by you guys. Like, you seem, like, very wise and, like, you've handled everything with so much grace and class, and I think it's. It's admirable.

That's kind of you say, you guys, so much for having.

It didn't have to be that way, right? Like, I mean, like you said, drama sells and it gets clicks and everything. And I think that you've really kept big picture and, like, what you ultimately want.

I'm super grateful for you guys and thanks for having us on.

I hope we accomplished this goal, but I'm pretty sure you said that you didn't do the shiny, happy people documentary because you didn't want to be, like, misconstrued or something. So my goal is that, like, your voice is heard the way that you want it to be heard through this episode. So I hope we accomplish that today.

Yes, you did. Thank you so much for letting us share.

Of course. Of course. Yeah. Well, thank you, guys. Go get their book. Check out their book. I listed. You can listen to it on two x feed. If you want to be crazy like me or read it, you can. I guess you could read it, too.

And it's anywhere books are sold. You can get the audio. Audiobook or. Yeah, just hard copy.

And where can people find you guys on social media? Is that something you're posting to.

Yeah, we're on social media. I'm at Ginger Volo. I don't know if you say at anymore. Ginger Volo on social media. And then Jeremy.

Yeah? I think I have an underscore.

Underscore.

All right, we're gonna go get some lunch. Thanks for watching, everybody.