It's time to gear up for the school year at Tilleria Outlets with all the essentials from first day fits to backpacks, jackets, sneakers, and more. All for an additional 25% off the outlet price at participating stores. 30 lucky shoppers could win a free bike. Enter by scanning the QR code next to Columbia and Coach. Shop name brands like Nike, Converse, Tilly's, Vans, and more at outlet prices. Visit telariaoutlets. Com for details. Tilleria Outlets, Highway 99. Exit Cart Mill. This is an from Better Help. As kids, we were always learning and growing, but at some point as adults, we tend to lose that sense of curiosity and excitement. Therapy can help you continue that journey because your back to school era can come at any age. And Betterhelp makes it easier to get started with affordable online therapy you can do from anywhere. Rediscover possibility with better help. Visit betterhelphelp. Com/newdirection today to get 10% off your first month.

Today's episode is brought to you by Altoids because let's face it, navigating the dating world isn't easy. But with Eltoids, your breath will be stronger than the urge to text.

You up at 1:00 AM. More intense than a rose ceremony and more reliable than your besties, Questionable Dating tips.

Do the simple things. Make sure that you have fresh breath wherever you go, and you got to do it with Eltoids. Eltoids is your sidekick in dating. Do yourself a favor and make sure that you have fresh breath. There is no bigger turn off than stale, stinky, rotten breath.

It's also so easy because I feel like with gum, you always either hate a wrap or you got to throw away, or the gum gets nasty, and you're like, Where can I throw this gum away? With an Eltoid, it's just so easy to throw in your bag, so easy to just dissolve in your mouth, chew it up. Fresh breath immediately.

Immediately. Altoids is the strong, reliable, and intense boost of freshness that young professionals and single minglers need to be their authentic selves in daily life. When walking into a high-stakes moment, if you have altoids, your breath is one less thing you have to think about. When it comes to needing confidence and security to show up as your original self, altoids has you covered.

They're not just mints, they're curiously strong mints.

Find Eltoids in the checkout aisles. Grab your 10 today.

You're crazy.

Do you go by Joanna or Jojo?

I go by Joanna. Okay.

Joanna, welcome to the Vial files.

Oh, thank you.

How are you? It's so good to be here. So excited to have you. I know I asked you, do you go by Joanna or Jojo? Do you often correct people now? It's interchangeable.

I really don't care. But I feel like we're going to be pals. So I feel like it's Joanna or Joe.

For the people who really know you.

Personal, yeah. The people who really know me. But if you don't know me or don't care, then that's fine. And Jojo is fine.

Are you from New No, I'm from Massachusetts.

Massachusetts.

Okay, so East Coast.

East Coast, yeah. So it feels like a homecoming to live here again.

How long you've been living in New York? Is it just doing Broadway? Yes.

I lived here for four months or five months last year. Then I'll be Well, I'm doing three months again in Moulin Rouge, the musical. Then I'm probably just going to move here because I think I've just done enough time in LA. I love LA. It's been a blessing, but I think I'm just going to…

We love New York. We actually met in New York. Really? Yeah. It's like, I've never lived in New York. Nale actually lived in New York when she was off.

I was like, 15. But every time we come back, we're always like, I know.

It's romantic and exciting, right? It is. My best friend and her husband, who's now we're all friends. They met, actually, no, they met in LA, but they fell in love in New York. So whenever they come back here, it's like it reignites all of that. It does. Did you guys meet in the wild?

I met. I found him on my... No. Yeah, no. I I found him on my Explorer page, and I was like, This guy is really hot. I'm just going to send him a DM. And then he responded, and a couple of weeks later, he was like, I'm going to be in New York. And I was living in Savannah, Georgia. And so I was like, I will also be in New York at that same time, coincidentally, and I will see you there. We will hang out. And we did.Oh.

My God.And I bought a flight. I love that. That's actually very inspiring.

You never know. What's the most adventurous thing you've done in dating?

I've done I love a lot of adventurous things, actually. I'm adventurous when it comes to that. I love love. The most adventurous thing I've done is... I think if ever you've been heartbroken, if ever you've been burned in I love. I think that- I have. Yeah, same. I think that taking a chance on just being open is adventurous enough. For sure. But I let somebody show me their hometown with absolutely no We had only hung out once before, but they were like, I know you're busy. I know you have one day. Would you be willing to come? I could plan a day for us, blah, blah, blah. We had been talking and all that. I was like, You know what? First I said no. But then I was like, actually, why not? He's so nice. He's been nothing but a gentleman. A nice guy wants to be nice to me, and I have this day open. Sure. Yeah, a random city that I had never really explored before. There was no pressure. There was no pretense, and it was just a nice experience.

Was it like, this is where I had my first kiss.

This is where I worked, this is where I- No, he was just like, here's things that I think you'll enjoy about my city because as you get So he took me... He knows that I love museums, and he knows that I love music, and he knows that I love food. So he put together this whole... He took me on a boat. I'm like, my God. This is really thoughtful.

How did you meet him? In the wild?

No, we met on the internet. Okay. We I said on Instagram. There you go. We love that. So that's what I'm saying. I'm like, You just never know. But that being said, I'm deeply single. I'm not in that space where I'm like, I don't think I'm ready right now.

Okay. Well, I was curious because you mentioned there was no pressure and things like that. I think on this show, we talk about relationships and dating all the time.

Which is what I love about your show. I love how far into it you guys go.

I love that you love the show. Yeah. I'm flattered. But I think for all the people listening, what was it about? Advice, maybe even for guys. What was it about what he did that made you feel safe and comfortable in that situation? Because when you take a risk in your shoes and meet essentially a strange guy in his home base, you're going through a checklist of... I think as us guys, we're not worried about safety as much as the ladies might be. That's paramount to us. But what did he do that really made you feel like I don't know how this is going to go, but I feel safe going and meeting this guy. How did you go about meeting him?

It was months of talking, and he had already come to LA. We had already met in person. I wouldn't have just cold. I just couldn't do that. I would just be too afraid. But also this person has a solid career and enough to risk that I didn't think he was going to murder me. There was that. You know what I mean? Obviously, you guys had that same foundation. We definitely asked each other. Yeah, are you a murderer? Let me know up right now, please.

I thought you would tell me, but I do have it up there.

Yeah, but I'm just going to throw it out there. So months of just getting a banter under our belt and just feeling comfortable and being like, Oh, let me ask you some of these questions, and let's He never pressed me to... I don't want to be on the phone with somebody that I don't know like that or care about. I am not going to be on the phone with you. So he was down to just do the texting or the voice notes or whatever, and just wasn't offended that I'm really, really I'm really busy right now. I appreciated that because some guys, the ego gets involved and blah, blah, blah. And I just... I understand. Sometimes you're just on different pages. But I would say just the patience and I felt that he was very secure. And that made me feel good. Yeah, it just caught me in a moment where I was like, there would be nothing wrong with just giving it a shot, having a new experience. I don't I don't know how into astrology you guys are. I'm not super into it, but I think it's interesting. I'm a Sagittarius. That's my sun sign.

And then I do know my whole chart and everything. But it's like, we're the seekers of the Zodiac. We like newness. We're down for experimentation and new experiences. I'm like, why not?

Can you do other people's reading or do you just know yours?

No, I ask. And then I'll be like, Oh, you're a Leo. I don't know what that means. Yeah, that's how I am, too. I just like to gather the information, though, and then maybe I'll like, one day it'll register.

But right now. I'm always like, What are you? And then they say something like, Oh, okay, cool. But if they say the same as me, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, me too.

I'm a Virgo. Exactly. Are you a Virgo? I'm a Virgo, yeah. Okay. See, I'm like, Okay, I don't know that. I can cute love it. I know. Beyoncé is a Virgo.

Libra over here.

We are the same. Libra. My mom's a Libra. So see, that's as far as it goes. I know we like balance.

We like balance. Which I honestly do. I mean, I'm not super into astrology, but I do feel like I'm- Do you only know that you like balance because that's the sign that you've seen? Yeah. It's a little like scale. All I know about being a Libra is that we like to even things out. Which I do think fits my personality because I'm always looking at the other side of the equation sometimes.

The thing about astrology is that we all possess all of the... We all contain multitudes. I think I identify with always looking to balance the scales and always seeking to understand what another person's point of view is in everything. So it's not exclusive. That's why the whole birth chart is interesting, because our sun sign says one thing about us, but then so does our moon, and so does our ascendant, and our rising, and all that stuff. It makes me sound like I'm this astro-wizzard, but I'm-I think you're among friends.

I feel like it's super popular.

I'm just a curious bitch. I'm just into a lot of things.

You mentioned you're deeply single right now. Obviously, you're super busy. You got Moulin Rouge. You have your new book out. We're coming out. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you. Is it just because you're just in your busy crushing refreshing life era, or is it more about just you're not ready to get back out there and you're still on a healing journey? What's the primary reasons for you being comfortable with being deeply single and not really pursuing any type of romantic relationships right now?

It really boils down to a lack of time to put into something and not feeling like I have energy to give toward that because that requires going outside of work. Meeting someone and doing that thing. Yeah, it involves time that just at the moment I don't have. That doesn't mean that in a few months, I wouldn't be open. But it's been actually really nice to have this time to Healing with someone else can be incredibly beneficial because then you get to see in practice how the things that you've been working on every day, how they really are in the real world with somebody. But there's also something to be said for creating these new agreements with yourself and these new routines and seeing what do I really like and value right now and what feels good to me and what are my non-negotiables, all these different things. It's just me and my 13-year-old dog right now. It's a really, really beautiful time because as much as I want her to be around forever, she won't. That's a whole other thing that I can't deal with.

Wait, do not cry.

It's a lot.

We got two dogs, and it's just like...

We've been through a lot together. She's had a few stepdads, and now it's just time for us to really have our moment in the sun together.

What's your favorite part about being single? I got to imagine. I know for me, as someone who always... I mean, my whole adult life, and I guess even in my teenage years, I always deeply pursued love.

Oh, yeah, me too. It's been such a priority for me.

Yeah, and I think sometimes even misguided. I probably over-prioritized it, and I feel like even you reference that in your book, almost. I think as I've gotten older, I've had to mature a little bit. But yeah, it wasn't until I was comfortable being single and being alone. My professional life and personal life really elevated once I got comfortable just being single and being alone. Because I think in my 20s, I cared about my professional career, but I felt like, well, I haven't found love yet. I need to do that first before I can really succeed. And I felt like I had it all messed up. Do you relate to that? I definitely relate to that.

But I think it's a wonderful thing to prioritize love. And I think it's also really smart. I think that behind every strong man is a stronger woman. And I think that for you to be like, No, I want my partner so I can then go out into the world and do it. And I think vice versa. I think that to be supported in a partnership, there's so much It can be a great foundation to then spring off from. But in my 20s, I think that I was so hurt by... There was so much confusion in my life, personally, in my family life and in my career. Things that people were just not telling me what was going on, and I was just embarrassed and confused. So I used relationships, not consciously, but I think I was using them as a distraction to be like, Well, I'm just busy in everything. I'm busy in love. I'm busy in being in the studio. I'm busy in doing this. I'm busy blah, blah, blah, blah, blah feel. I need to make sure that I can't... I either don't have time to feel anything or I'm feeling everything. I was just really on a roller coaster of stimulation.

Love had a lot to do with that, and well, had something to do with that. I was just addicted to highs because there were a lot of lows, too. So I was trying to balance it out and the scales of balance. I think that at a certain point, I just needed to be like, this is the definition of insanity to keep jumping from relationship to relationship. I've had all these different two-year, three-year things. That's not what's up. I'm the common denominator here. Let me chill the fuck out.

Well, it's funny you mentioned I was the common denominator. I always like to ask because I always would ask myself, I'm sure your exes played their own role, and we all have our frustrations, but what through your relationships have you learned about the role that you played or just maybe bad habits or things that you always notice about yourself in relationships that when you look back, you thought maybe this played a role in things not working out.

Oh, my God. Where do I begin? I was such a mess, such a mess, but also very earnest and very eager to try to get things right. Sometimes it's just... I mean, alchemy is such a part of relationships. It's that when two elements come together, I'm my own element, he's his own element, and together we create something that is its own new thing. I mean, I identify, and I talk about in the book, my definition of addiction and of addict, because I grew up in a household where both parents identified as addicts. So I think about it differently than maybe the majority of people who didn't grow up in a house like that think of it, which is that it's not just about one substance that has this thing. It's about trying to fill this empty void that I have felt and that my parents also felt, and a lot of my family. I was not a safe place for myself, so I was not a safe person to be in a relationship with. I also attracted people that didn't know who they were. I didn't know who I was, can now see in retrospect that the people that I have been in relationship with, the things that I didn't like about them or the things that bothered me, we were attracted to each other to hold a mirror to each other.

Yeah. The things that offended me or I had a lot to learn from that. My ego got inflamed, an ego in the sense of I went into defense mode. I could be very defensive. I could be self-righteous. You name an undesirable quality, I have possessed it. I have exercised it. That being said, I think I've also been a really good partner because I think that I'm... I'm single, but I'm always, always into accountability. Always. I'll always be the first to say, I'm sorry, and to be like, I'm actively working on this. That's huge. I'm into that. I'm into that.

Growing up in that household of having two parents who identify as addicts, was that addictive personality something that you struggled with from the jump, or is that something you realized later in life you struggle with, or is that something that you were like, I'm not like them really at all?

I think that I felt like I was not like them at all. My parents weren't together, but they were both on their own journey. Me. And I was like this with my mom for a long time, and then went through different stages with my dad and my mom. But I think that I felt self-righteous toward them. I think I felt like, Oh, I have it all. I have it figured out. I felt parental toward them, actually. And again, I would say a bit self-righteous until recently, over the past few years, when I've been like, Oh, I am no better or worse, and I have the same predispositions. They got it from somewhere, and I got it from somewhere, and it all just comes into one thing. But we have a lot of similarities, and it just manifestsests a little differently, I guess.

I don't know I've never even asked Nalia this question, but sometimes you grow up and then you see what you get from your parents. There are times I always feel like, I feel like I get all my parents bad habits. I don't know if it's sometimes Maybe it's just because we always notice the things that our parents aren't good at or what we're not good at, or maybe you're just judging yourself. But is that something you relate to? Yeah.

But I think that I have their endearing qualities, too. There are things that I remember my dad doing or ways of him being, the things that I would really judge. Those are just things that, yeah, I have within me and need to actively work on not leaning into or embodying as much.

I feel like you're incredibly wise. Did you go to therapy and learn a lot about yourself? Have you just figured it all out on your own? I mean, how?

There's a lot of things.

What did you say? Self-preservation.

Self-preservation, self-realization. I am an only child, and I grew up around adults, and I've been in the music industry since I was 12. Well, even younger than that. I've been the breadwinner for my family since I was six years old. I think that that makes you really... It makes you a certain type of personality. I was already an old soul type of personality. From when I was born, I was told that, Oh, you're an old soul. You're an old soul. I'm like, What does that mean? I'm like, Cool. You think I'm an adult? Perfect. But I never wanted to be a kid. I think that now, 33, I think I'm catching up to where I'm... Because now it's okay. I can impart some wisdom to a younger generation because I've actually lived a lot of life. I actually do have things to share, and it's not weird. I can actually speak to certain things. But yeah, a lot of therapy. I started therapy, I would say at 22, so just over 10 years of being in therapy, and not consistently. But I definitely needed it when I started it. I was probably going to die.

I was probably going to end up drinking and driving and killing myself or even worse, killing someone else. Of course, both would be terrible. But to live with killing someone else, I don't know how I would do that. I just couldn't. That was the road it was going on. I needed to do something.

Do you think someone who's been the bread runner in their family since they were six, do you think at times you have a hard time letting people take care of you?

No. Okay. Maybe. Maybe I do, but I don't think so because I just don't assume that they will, I think is what it is. I think there's always an undertone or an energy of preparedness to, I'm always going to have something to fall back on. I'm always going to I don't even really know what it's like long term to have somebody take care of me, especially where I did feel like a parent to both of my parents at different times. I don't really look to somebody to come and take care of me, even if I'm sick or something like that. But when they do, I'm actually really down for that. I will make space for that. It's lovely.

Well, your book, Over the Influence.

Amazing cover. Thanks. Congratulations on the book, by the way. Thank you. You really open up in the book. It seems you cover your entire life, and you really go there through with your relationship with your parents, your career. What inspired you just to really open up about all these elements of your life?

I mean, if I was going to write a book, why hold anything back? What would the point be? Even if just my friends and family read this, or even if just a few fans read this, they deserve to know what journey they've been on with me. So much, I realized that even I didn't understand until I started to put it down on paper. And I wanted to explore what I've learned in these 33 years, because a lot of people don't get to see the highs and the lows and get to the other side of feeling depressed and confused and your life is over and What's the fucking point and all this stuff. I imagine I'll feel that way again. God willing, life is long. I looked up a couple of years ago and I was realizing that it was going to be 20 years this year since I put out my first album. I wasn't ready to put out new music. I wanted to focus my energy on making sense of what this career has meant to me and what I could share with other people that will make it worth all the weirdness that I went through.

That album was actually my first CD. What? Yeah. Your first I ever got. Yeah, it was my first CD. Oh, my God. What was that like for you being so young and being... You were the first solo artist to be number one on the charts.

Isn't that- The youngest. The youngest.

That's insane. What was that like for you at that age?

It was everything, bitch. It was everything. It was very exciting. I fucking knew it. It was everything. It's exactly what I wanted. It is. It's exactly what I dreamed of since I was an even littler girl. It was so crazy. Something that I talk about in the book that was very disorienting was how badly bullied I was in school, how deeply uncool I was and felt and was told I was all the time. Then to be to be so famous. Then to have- You're like... Yeah, it was very much, What are you guys doing back in the St. Mary's parking lot? Bitch. Yeah, bitch. Exactly.

I don't know if I feel like almost every Every. But it seems like a lot of successful women I know all have been bullied in elementary school or high school. Oh, you got it? Oh, she got it. She got mean girl.

Yeah. I had started modeling at 13 and went into eighth or ninth grade. And the popular girl, her boyfriend, was liking my pictures on Facebook, and she printed them out and wrote, Whore, Sucks for free, Ho, and mean girls done around the school.

Sucks for free as if it would be better if you... Sucks for money. Yeah. Anyway.

That's an excellent point, Jo.

I don't know. No, but that was so horrible. It was so fucked up. It was so fucked up. It was so embarrassing. And I'm I'm sorry.

I'd walk around the school and they'd be like, I heard you suck for free. You want to go to the bathroom and suck? And I would be like, I don't even know what the fuck that means.

Yeah, I'm not even doing that.

Oh my God. No, yeah, it was bad.

It's so... Just because you're becoming a successful model or becoming a musician or things like that, doesn't mean that... I mean, I still am dealing with the effects of that. I still walk into a room and think that nobody likes me. Not all the time. But there is an undercurrent of I have to actively talk to myself and be like, First of all, you don't need everyone to like you. You don't like everyone. It doesn't mean that people are actively...

And none of these people know you. No one really gives a fuck.

No one really gives a fuck. That's what I always. No one really gives a fuck. It was a dream come true. I thought that at 13, when my first single came out, I was like, It's about time because I've been already working on this since I was three.

Yeah. You were in school and pursuing music, getting bullied at school, and then your song goes number one. What was that like being in school? Then were people then like, Wait, no, we love you. We don't hate you.

I started being home I was up-schooled on the road because I started like... The first tour I was ever on, I opened up for Usher on his Confessions tour in Europe. So that's the tour that I got to go out of school for. My mom was like, I really don't want you to leave school. I'm like, Ha-ha, I I got to now. I got my wish. I had a tutor that taught me all my subjects and everything, and she traveled with me. And then we sent my school work to a PO box in Ohio, California. It would get graded, sent back to us. From eighth grade on, I didn't go to a regular public school. But up till then, it had been public school vibes. I thought that... I'm from south of Boston. I'm from a place called Foxborough, Massachusetts. Then at 11, my mom and I moved to California. I signed a record deal to a series of crazy events. And then the record label moved us to New Jersey. And I thought every time that I moved, that it would be like, oh, kids in California will get me. I won't be bullied there.

But no, it's not them. It's me. I'm the weirdo. But in New Jersey, it was a little better because I came in as the girl with the record deal. So But then I was like, oh, fuck these kids, too, because now they don't really like me. But I'd rather they like me.

But I suppose it's just a metaphor, or maybe metaphor is the wrong word, but in an adult life, you know that as soon as you feel some success or have some success There's always someone knocking at your door ready to tear you down. You can't have success without critiques. It's true. You have to really learn to embrace your critiques because I always say, if they're not criticizing you, they're not noticing you. It's like that's unfortunately a way you have to look at it because the flip side of that is just letting those people get into your head and second guess yourself and things like that.

And is it Brené Brown who talks about being in the arena versus not? It's only the people that are... What does she say? It's the thing about the critics are not the people that have the courage to actually put themselves out there and be in the arena. I think she's talking about gladiator sports or whatever. It's a lot easier to just be like, Oh, I would have done that. Oh, would you have? You're not in the fucking lion's den.

It's like watching the Olympics and you're like, Oh, gosh, you didn't land that triple double backflip.

Yeah, that's embarrassing. As we're eating the contact bars. Exactly.

Yeah.

Symbiotica is a supplement brand that we love giving us access to a wide range of different options. We take Symbiotica because we're really busy and we started feeling like we have less energy and not feeling our best and not getting our best sleep.

They have the best little pouches that you can throw in your purse, you can throw in your luggage for a trip. They have magnesium, they have vitamin C in their citrus vanilla, they have magnesium L-thyrinate in their vanilla cream flavor. They just are great tasting and they're so easy to travel with. They're so easy to take. I feel like that's very rare with these supplement products.

Unlike supplements that can taste chalky, symbiotica features supplements that taste delicious. Feel more energized, alert, and balanced with high-quality supplements that work. Head over to symbiotica. Com/vialll. It is C-Y-Y-M-B-I-I-O-T-I-K-A. Com/vialll. For 20% off, plus free shipping on your subscription order. Again, that's symbiotica. Com/vialll for 20% off, plus free shipping on your subscription order. We recently swapped out our old Perla Cases for Mulberry's silk Pillow Cases made by Bliss, and we have to say we are absolutely in love since switching to Blissie, our skin and hair have never been happier.

I have been swearing by silk Pillow Cases for years and years and years and years now, and I have finally gotten all of my loved ones on Blissie. There's just nothing better than putting your head down, your clean, washed face down on a silk pillowcase, and Blissie has the best ones to offer.

There's a lot of dupes out there that claims Satin is the alternative to silk, but that's not the case. Satin is made from synthetic fibers like microplastics. While Blissie's silk is luxurious, all natural material that's breathable, cool to the touch, and gentle on your skin and hair. It's so much more durable and long-lasting. Blissy Pillow Cases are the perfect gift for the entire family, including the little ones. They have colors and patterns that match every esthetic in collaboration with brands like Minions, Harry Potter, and more.

For Christmas last year, my 10-year-old niece asked for their tie-dye Blissy silk Pillow Case, and that is what I got her.

They are also hyperallergenic so that you can sleep more comfortably without itching or rashes. They are also super easy to wash and maintain, plus a hidden zipper that keeps your pillow nice and secure. We love everything about Blissy. Blissy has been featured on Good morning America, The View, live with Kelly and Mark, and Dermatologist recommended. Everybody loves them. They have over 2 million fans, and you could be the next because you're a listener. Blissie is offering 60 Nights risk-free plus an additional 30% off when you shop at blissie. Com/viallpod. That's B-L-I-S-S-Y. Com, blissie. Com/viallpod. And use code Vialpa, that's V-I-I-A-L-L-P-O-D, to get an additional 30% off your skin and hair. Well, thank you.

We've all heard the stories recently of Taylor Swift re-recording her masters and the whole screw to brawn of it all. I think a lot of people don't know a lot about the music industry. All I know about the music industry is just how complicated it seems to be and how vicious at times it seems to be. But you were someone who re-recorded your songs, am I right? Even before it was a thing and before it became everyone heard about it because of Taylor Swift. Can you tell us that story or how does that all work? Because I think a lot of people listening don't really understand, even after the Taylor Swift of it all and the whole Scooter Braun fiasco, what that really means.

Yeah, I mean, I barely do. It's very convoluted. The music industry is the Wild Wild West, particularly right now. When I started, when I signed my deal at 12 years old in 2003, you can imagine how much has changed in over 20 years. So just keeping up with where it's at, it really is changing all the time. But there's different revenues of income for an artist, and there's different contracts that you'll sign. What I did is I was able to... My music, my first two albums, for example, which had sold millions and millions of copies around the world, were not available on streaming platforms because my former label didn't make a deal with the digital streaming platforms. Dsps are like Apple and Spotify and TIDAL, for example. Each record label needs to make a deal with those things for their artist's music to be on them. My former label, because they were a smaller imprint that was distributed through a major, when they lost their major label distribution, they were no longer under that umbrella. Also on their roster was Alia. So her whole posthumous catalog, everything. Tony Braxton, Tank, Timbaland, and Magoo. So none of our music was available.

So my big songs, Leave Get Out, Too Little Too Late, Baby It's You. My songs that stream very well this day, were not available. And my fans were asking online, Why did you take your music off streaming? Because they don't know how this works. I didn't personally take it. They're like, You just want to start fresh and you don't want to think about. I'm like, No, I like money. I don't want my legacy that I've been building since I was a fetus to be erased. That's weird. I was very frustrated. And my manager at the time I found this loophole where I could rerecord my new masters of my old music. And it would be like remaking it because enough years had passed to where you could legally do that. There's publishing royalties, there's master royalties, and there's mechanical royalties. There's all these different streams of revenue like I was talking about for an artist. So Black Ground, my former label, owns the the master rights. So I needed to create a new master, and that would mean that everything would need to be rerecorded because the 2004 versions of Jojo, for example, my first album, is one master.

Does that make sense so far or not? Yeah. Okay. No, it does. I'm like, Am I explaining this? No, you are.

You're doing great.

Okay. I think. I think, too. I really...

It's crazy. It's weird. I'm in.

We recorded everything from the ground up. I had some of my close producer friends remake the songs to sound as close to the original as possible because what I was trying to do was not necessarily reinvent the wheel, but was trying to just make sure that my fans could have these songs that are very nostalgic to them and these things that are a part of my history, and I didn't want to be erased. I also wanted the collaborators and the people that wrote these songs for me or with me to have their Just Do as well. We created this opportunity for us all to be able to reclaim the narrative and feel empowered because I had felt so disempowered for so long and just told, first of all, you can never get out of this contract. Second of all, there's nothing you can do about this. You're a victim of your circumstance. You are a victim of music industry politics. I'm like, That is the worst. That sounds terrible. I don't want to accept that. So we just tried to come up with a new way. And I'm glad that in a sense, it inspired other artists to be able to say, We don't need to do things the way that they've been done before.

We don't need to accept this. We're not going to take this. It can forge a new way forward when it looks like there isn't a way forward.

So how old were you when you re-recorded?

25, 26. Wow. Yeah. So this wasn't that long ago.

The only reason that I actually have SoundCloud downloaded on my phone to this day is because of your rendition of Marvin's Room.

Oh, my God.

It's so good. How can we get that off of SoundCloud and downloadable? I don't know if everyone has heard this, but you... How long ago was that?

Oh, my God. It was over 10 years ago.

It's so good.

Thank you.

It's so good. Was this like, Hey, we need to call Drake? Or was this like, I'm just going to have fun.

No, it's not like that. And that's why I can't make money off of it, because that's Drake's song. That's Drake's melody. That's maybe be boy Wanda on the beat or 40. So they own the... I mean, that's his melody. I wrote new lyrics to it, but there are so many different things that come into publishing and master rights and mechanical and all these things. And that's why we put it on SoundCloud, because I would need to have gotten there. So I had his blessing. That was a trend as well. I'm going to go ahead. I started, and I'm glad that people also were doing the Marvin's Room thing and stuff. But I think I was the first one to do that. Then it was this little moment in the zeitgeist, and that was cool. But yeah, so his label that owns the rights took down millions and millions of streams on YouTube's and stuff. On YouTube's. Because they own that, even though I was just doing my rendition. So, yeah, it's very nuanced, all the ownership stuff. It is. It's crazy, yeah. So that's why ownership is really, really important. It's the most important conversation that I would want to have with young artists and people who are curious about getting into this game or that people that ask me, What advice would you give to someone who's just getting started?

How do I sign a record deal? The reason why I would tell people not to sign a record deal is not because of my crazy story, because my story isn't that crazy. It's actually far for the course. It's just that it's been a big part of my narrative. Because I started so young, there's just different variables that play. But the reason why I would say it is because you don't need a label anymore. If you can retain ownership of your voice, which is one of the things that they're going to try to take away from you legally, you should maintain... I couldn't choose what I did with my voice because I no longer owned my voice. So meaning I couldn't even sing in a movie without a label's approval. And sometimes they might want, say, a million for Jojo's voice to be used. Well, what if Universal Pictures doesn't want to pay that? Well, then I don't get to sing in that movie. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, it's crazy. You don't have freedom of mobility when you don't own yourself. Wow. That's why I think that conversation is really important just for songwriters as well.

I think that that's a big point that Taylor Swift was wanting to make was saying, This is my intellectual property. These are my ideas. This is my fan base. Even if you legally own me, you don't own me. It's cool that this is something that people are interested in.

Another thing you talk about your book is coming up with Lady Gaga. I don't know if it was you guys shared managers or- My executive producer of my first two albums was exed out of my career through some crazy shit that was going on.

He was down on his luck. Then a year later, he found... It's not like he her up from the street. She was incredible. She's off being Stephanie. So he found Lady Gaga and then blasted off on that rocket ship with her. And that's something I talk about in that I don't think even my fans really know that little link there of me being like, Oh, my God. He's never, ever coming back to me. He was my brother figure, my uncle figure, my father figure, all wrapped up in one. Vincent was everything to me. And I felt left high and dry. On my 16th birthday, I just never heard from him for about a year. And then the next time I saw him was in a paparazzi shot with Lady Gaga or something like that. And I'm like, Oh, my God. And then for me, it wasn't like, oh, fuck this bitch. I was like, Oh, my God, she's unbelievable. Wow. He's never coming back. It's one of those things.

But nevertheless, obviously, it's very vulnerable for you to talk about that. And she is obviously a huge star, one of the stars that we have. It can be a blow to the ego sometimes to especially have someone very close to you than helping them, that star, out. What made you want to open up about that? Obviously, she has a lot of fans, too. I think some people can be scared to open up about something like that and that topic for fear of, like you said, jealousy or things like that. Why did you want to be vulnerable about that topic?

I think jealousy is something we all feel. I don't even know if I felt... I guess I felt a little jealous, but it was more that I'm like, I haven't harnessed my potential in the way that she has. Particularly at that time, I was just like, wow, she's extraordinary. To feel her life force on display up on stage, I was just in awe. She's a few years older than me, and I was just looking up to her. I don't know. I'm just not really It doesn't concern me to be human and to talk about those things. I'm much better at being vulnerable than I am of conveying any type of image, or I'm just over it, which is why I'm talking about over the influence. I can't really phone it in. I can't really be a character. Everybody is where they are for a reason. I haven't been able to do that. I'm just too I'm just too… I'm better at being honest about how I feel than trying to be cool.

When was the last time you talked to Vincent?

Well, He wanted to work together again, and he was exed out of her career, and he's… Do you all know about it? We all know. It's crazy. It's really crazy. Just a quick Google search, and you'll be like, Oh, my God. Oh, my I just hope he's doing well. He's lived a wild life. I'm the wild man.

Have you ever run into Lady Gaga at all and talked about the mutual connect?

I don't think that we have talked about it, but she's just really one of my favorite living artists. I think she's amazing. I mean, artist in every sense of the word. I think she is an actress and a songwriter. I just have the deepest respect for her and how Diversified she is. I love so much when she did that project with Tony Bennett. It really, really allowed me to be like, she doesn't care. She's not living for other people. She's not influencing herself. For sure. What people tell her she should be doing. I am confident that no one on her team was like, you know what you should do next? You should commit to doing a Vegas residency with a 90-year-old jazz legend and make an album of standards, of American standards. I just love that she did. I just think that's so fire, and that's the way I want to live my life. That's incredible. Just doing whatever feels like the vibe.

What do you enjoy more, acting or singing?

Well, right now, I enjoy the combination of the two, and that's why I really like musical theater. That's where I got my start. I played 6-year-old Tommy in the Who's Tommy. I wore a little boy wig and just in local theater at the Orpium in Foxborough Mass. I I really love that combination of singing and acting, and I'd love to do that in movies and television, too. I think I've been getting a lot more into acting, particularly recently, really studying it, and I just have so much respect for it. Lady Gaga has been a big inspiration. I'm sure nobody was thinking that they... Nobody wanted to take her seriously as an actress, and she made it impossible. She made herself impossible to ignore. So you never know what that moment is going to be, where you turn a corner and all of a sudden you're living a completely different life. I'm just into that journey. But I will say that doing the same show, getting to play one character for a long period of time, having a different audience every night, sometimes twice a day. The Broadway schedule for us is eight times a week.

So two shows on Wednesday, two shows on Saturday. It's very, very humbling. It's not for everyone, but for some crazy reason it is for me. I really like it. I feel like there's always something new to explore. If my scene partner is going through something different, I can feel that. It'll make me act different. We get to be really sensitive in the moment. Also, I don't know, there's just a lot to learn. I'm in a season where I just want to learn.

When you first did Broadway, did you expect it to be more like a one and done or a temporary thing and you've found a love for it, or is it something you're anticipating wanting to make it a longer career?

I really felt like it was going to be a hinge point in my life that I would never be the same after it. For some reason, I just felt like there's something about this thing that I'm about to do that is going to shift things for me. I also started writing the outline. I started writing my book while I was doing my first run on Broadway. I knew from, I would say, the first month of doing the show of Moulin Rouge on Broadway, that I wanted to originate a role, that I wanted to produce original theater as well, and that these are my people. I want to be a part of this community. I want to live in New York. I was like, I don't know why. I know that's crazy. I'm like, I think LA is expensive. Manhattan is even more expensive. I don't like taxes in California. What am I thinking wanting to live here? But I just feel I've I've ignored so many instincts where I just have this overwhelming feeling that I should or shouldn't do something. I'm just not ignoring those things anymore. I'm like, I'm curious about this. This feels good to me.

I feel like a little kid again. I think that that's what I'm responsible to listen to. I think that it's connected to some type of destiny path if we follow those things that light us up. I spent a lot of time of feeling really uninspired in my career, really uninspired with trying to do things the way that people told me. They're like, You should do this and then this in your career, and you should try to make it look this way, and this is what will look cool, and you should try to hang with these people, and you should try to do that. And all of that makes me feel stupid and really not like myself. I'm like, I literally don't care what anybody thinks about this particular thing that I just like doing. And so that's what I'm responsible to.

It's very Lady Gaga.

I mean, she inspired me, for real.

When did you get to that point? I mean, I relate to a lot of things that you're saying, too, in terms of just having that ability to disconnect from being online or fans or things like that. When did you stop reading your comments, basically?

I do read my comments. Regularly? Yeah, I read my social media comments, but I don't actively seek out.

How do you disconnect then from... Because I always say, if I ever get advice to people who are asking, especially if they're I've been on reality TV, they're recently on. As I always tell people, sometimes the positive comments are more dangerous than the negative ones.

Oh, my God, you are so right.

It validates strangers. You're right. How do you, when you're reading comments, disconnect from just reading what people are saying to not taking it personally. Because for me, it's just like, I have the strength to go to the grocery store and not buy the Oreos, but I don't have the strength to not eat the Oreos at my I have the strength not to read the comments, but I don't have the strength to read the comments and disconnect from taking what these people are saying. I can remind myself, Oh, they don't know me. I don't know this person. But after I read it, it's already internalized.

It It could be poison or it could be, yeah, how do you do that? How do you do that? The only way to do it is to actually disconnect and to make it a practice of putting your phone in the other room at at night and things like that. But right now, I'm in a very, very stimulated season where I am engaging with all the comments because I am about to launch this book and because I am going to release new music and because I do have several different balls in the air, for lack of a different term right now, that I'm wanting to make sure that I'm engaging with the algorithm because you know how the hell that is. I want to make sure that we get the word out about this book to as many people as possible. It's impossible not to be affected by the feedback loop also of the good validation and the, Yeah, that's awesome. And, Wow, you're really killing it, or blah, blah, blah. Or the people that are like, Wow, that's not it, or whatever. It's just really impossible not to. I have to carve out periods of five days where I'm not on that.

And where, thankfully, I'm in a position where I can ask somebody on my team, If we do need to post things, can you get these up? And here's what I want to say and blah, blah, blah. But I need to destimulate because I feel... Right now, I'm actually vibrating at a certain place because not only am I doing the show, I'm also workshopping an original musical. So from 10:00 to 6:00, I'm stimulated, I'm singing, and then I'm doing the show, and then I'm doing podcasts or I'm making myself available. And that's not real life necessarily. Do you know what I mean? It's a part of real life, but it does make me feel almost like at a metallic frequency where it feels like drugs. I don't know if you relate to that, but it feels like Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going. Yeah. It feels like you have to implement periods of... I have to implement periods of stopping. Yeah. Maybe even to think back to the question that you asked at the beginning, do you know how to let somebody take care of you? Maybe I don't because I just...

Yeah, don't. I'm like, I need to keep going. I'm like, Wait, what? Do I? So I'm actually looking forward to... I am carving out a couple of weeks where I'm just going to... At the end of this year, where I'm looking forward to... Unplugging. Unplugging. Yeah. But right now... You're in it. I'm also really in it. It's great. You're in it. There's a season for everything.

Ag1 is like a daily self-care for me, and I know that I'm doing at least one good thing for my body every day when I start my day with AG1. It gives my body the vitamins, minerals, and more that I need. Ag1 is an easy drinkable daily supplement that supports brain, gut, and immune health through a science-driven formula of vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, stress-adoptivins, mushrooms, superfoods, and digestive enzymes. It's easy to drink. It tastes absolutely delicious. I really love the taste. I really enjoy it. I have it for breakfast, I have it for lunch. You don't have to have it more than twice a day, but I just enjoy the taste. It is packed with nutrients. It's great for your gut health. If you someone who especially isn't getting all your veggies and all those vitamins, if you're resistant to healthier foods, AG1 is a great supplement to getting those greens, getting your gut health going. Everything in it is it's something that your body needs. Ag1 is made with bioavailable ingredients that actually work with your body. Just one daily scoop provides the whole body benefits like gut immune and stress support. Start AG1 and notice a difference for yourself.

It's a great first step to investing your health, and that's why I'm so excited to be partnering with them. Start AG1 and get a free bottle of vitamin D3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase of drinkag1. Com/viall. That's a $48 value for free. If you go to drinkag1. Com/viall, check it out today. Orgaine makes amazing protein shakes. One of the biggest challenges of eating better is that so many better for you products taste so bad. Well, there's a brand that cracked the code on providing real nutrition that also tastes incredible, and it's called Orgaine. I discovered our next sponsor, Orgaine, and it was a game Same changer. Orgaine is the leader in real protein powder nutrition that understands that being good for you doesn't have to taste bad. Orgaine's founder, Dr. Andrew Abram, believes that real nutrition has the power to make a difference in people's lives.

Orgaine's brand new 30 Gram Complete Protein Shake offers protein-packed real nutrition designed to satisfy your cravings without all of the sugar. Orgaine's 30 Gram Protein Shakes are an excellent source of complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, and it helps maintain a healthy lifestyle.

And Orgaine is convenient, real nutrition I'm looking for with only one gram of sugar per serving.

Oregaine's 30 Gram Protein Shakes are available at costcoandorgan. Com. If you want to get in on delicious protein pack nutrition today, head to orgaine. Com/vialll and use code Vi-I-A-L-L for 20% off your order. But once again, that's orgain. Com/viall for 20% off. And make sure you use our promo code, Vi-I-A-L-L, so they know we sent you. Again, that's orgain. Com/viall for 20% off.

When you're not writing books, performing on Broadway, making music, et cetera, et cetera, what does Joanna like to do when she's just kicking it? What do you like to do for fun? What's your guilty pleasures?

I am really into Love Island right now. Okay. We love that. Yeah. I'm really into Love Island.

Have you always been into Raleigh TV?

No, I'm actually not usually the most into it. But during the pandemic, my mom and I watched. She was living with me for a while. We watched Love is Blind, and that was That's a good one.

Which season?

The first one.

Okay.

Do you watch any of the things that you have been on back or have you ever sat down and been like, You know what? I'm just going to put on Aquamarine and just see.

No. Now he's obsessed with aquamarine.

I'm upset.

Everyone's obsessed. It's iconic. It's so funny. It is so... I hope that that word isn't offensive. I don't mean it like that, but it's just so funny because it's just such a silly movie. But it's such a moment. It's like a little cult classic lokey. Yes. For girls of our demographic. How old are you? Twenty-five. Twenty-five. Okay, so you're a young'in to have watched this. But it's nice that even women my age who have daughters or something, they'll play that for their daughter's. I'm so excited to show our daughter.It's.

Really cute. It's so good. What was that experience? How old were you when you were doing that?

I was 14 when we went to Australia and filmed it. Wow. It was so cool. That was my first big movie that I had done. I had done an independent movie before, and I had been doing theater before that. But that was awesome. It also brought out some insecurities in me because I was like the tomboy. I was playing tomboy. I was not as skinny as the other girls. I felt really like, next to them. I just remember feeling like that, and I was like, Oh. From a young age, I think we're all aware of or we're measuring ourselves up next to other girls, and I was no different. I learned a lot on that set. But I would say I learned even more from the movie that I did right after, which was RV, which is where I played Robin Williams's daughter.

What was that experience like?

That was everything because he was such an example of what a movie star should be because he wasn't just that. He was the most caring, thoughtful person in the room. He knew everybody's name on the crew. He would know things about everybody's life, and he would ask, and he'd remember, and then he'd have insight. He was truly a genius. It was just great to be around even someone like Kristen Chenowith, who also is somebody who I admire in her career path and how diversified she is with musical theater and film and television and her recording career and all those different things. It was just neat to be around such people that are at the top of their game. I also got to meet one of my best friends, Zelda, who's Robin's daughter. We met at the premiere for that movie, and we've been like sisters ever since. She's gone on to direct some music videos for me She had me sing the theme song for her movie, Lisa Frankenstein, which just came out and did great. I'm so proud of her. It was a beautiful unfolding life moment. I was I had just so much to learn from that set.

Were those back to back?

They were back to back. Wow. Yeah. My record label at the time was really, really mad that I was doing movies because they wanted to have a percentage. They wanted to make money from that. Oh, my God. I hope that no one from the label is watching or whatever. But whatever. Yeah, that's what it was.

Are you still with the record label today? No. Do you feel this need to protect what?

No, it's not about protection. I felt that I needed to protect myself for a long time. There was some... This is common knowledge. I even alluded to it. I said it in the book. The president of that record label was sued by another person for He blew up their car and started a rumor online that they had... I'm saying that because that's something that's public knowledge. It's not like... Anyway, scary. Sorry. It's scary stuff. I'm sorry, he blew up someone's car. Yeah. These were the type of people that I was dealing with. At what age? I lived in a lot of fear.

You were young when you were dealing with them.

Yeah, I lived in a lot of fear. I think I still have residual things of that because I was always told We were literally paying people off to stay. But again, I don't want to bring on any negative unwarranted attention from them because it's been a long time since I was with them. But I lived in a lot of fear. Wow. Yeah. I know. It's weird stuff.

That's crazy.

Back to love and relationships. I'm someone who's dealt with my fair share of heartbreak, have been engaged before, it hasn't worked out. You're someone who had an engagement and it didn't work out, obviously. That's, I think, a very relatable thing that often people feel very alone when it's happening. I think if you get engaged and it doesn't work out, you think, I never thought this would happen to me. You don't get engaged only to expect it to not work out in a marriage. But how was that experience? I mean, obviously, the question, but obviously a difficult experience, I imagine. How did you work through that heartbreak?

Well, as shit was hitting the fan, I was so immature to do this, but I put something on Instagram. I'm like, took the ring off my left hand and put it on my right. I shouldn't have done that, but I was so in a heartbreak hallucination. I felt so self-righteous.

Why did you regret saying that?

Because it wasn't mature. I really like to be a person who tries to take the high road. Sure. It just wasn't my best self.

In Did you say that because you almost felt like he or the situation got the best of you? I mean, I get what you're saying. It wasn't mature, but at the end of the day, sometimes we're allowed to be down bad and react.

Be down bad and react.

I'm someone, and I feel like I get that sense from you, who's done a lot of work and their emotional maturity and to be able to... I really invest in my emotional resilience. Yes, me too. But yeah, sometimes people do shitty things to us. I think sometimes if you are someone who really invest in your emotional resilience, I think sometimes we forget to give ourselves grace for when we are human. And that's the only way I ask that.

I receive that. Thank you. I think it's just I really wanted to be like, I handle this perfectly. Sure. And that's where I could say, I really faltered. But 100 %. And it was that like riding that high vibrating thing of like, I just need to do something. And I didn't like that. I felt like he hadn't protected us. So I'm like, I'm not protecting shit anymore. So it was something like that.

What was the ultimate reason for that relationship ending?

The ultimate reason for that relationship ending. The ultimate reason for that relationship ending was the trust not being able to be repaired and just being like, I'm going to take this instance that happened and not ignore other things that I was not looking at. Things that you overlook when you want something to work and when you're in love and when-When you want to believe in your partner. Yeah. It was a wonderful relationship. But I just saw the writing on the wall and was like, I'm going to take this opportunity to move forward and move forward alone. The truth was that I had jumped from a relationship for that into this one, and I was not ready. I wondered, had I even attracted this relationship from the healthiest place? Since then, I've been really being like, what part did I play in even this undesirable result happening where I don't blame myself for what happened because that wasn't my fault. But certain things certainly were.

I imagine that must feel more empowering because at least you're taking control of your situation, despite at least looking at what you could have controlled, you can recognize that that's not my fault and still say, Well, what role did I play? It's like two things can be true at the same time. You You can be hurt by someone, you can be betrayed by someone. But like you pointed out, you can still look at the situation and be like, Could I have done something differently? And that's not taking on the responsibility or the blame, but I have found that just makes me feel more in control of my situation because the other end of it is like, I can't believe this happened to me. I'm a victim of this situation. This happened again. I'm attracting the wrong people. And maybe we can attract the wrong people, but at the same time, we can look at why as opposed to just thinking it's I'm destined for failure and things like that, which I know I've been in that place where you just get in that self-pity mode and you feel sorry for yourself. It just becomes an almost self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah. I mean, we are responsible for the way we frame things and ultimately for our own happiness. It just feels so shitty to feel like Things happen to you all the time. I'm just like, no, I mean, I'm co-creating this reality. Like you said, I think that framing it in a certain way ultimately just feels better. I had to take ownership of the fact that there has been this theme of infidelity in my life ever since I started dating, whether My first two major singles, Leave, Get Out, and then on my second album, Too Little Too Late, were about cheating. It's really weird how I had never had a boyfriend then. I was 13 and then 15. It's very strange. I almost thought I might have brought that on to me in my first relationship when I was 15, because then I got cheated on. I'm like, Oh, my God. I thought it would never... Then I swore, Well, I'm never, ever letting anybody It hurt me again. Then I cheated in my next relationship. Then it was always this back and forth through my history of dating, of there being a betrayal of trust.

Then through therapy, I realized that I had been betraying myself my entire life. I was not safe within myself. I could not trust myself. I did not keep any of my promises to myself, or I would be just very here and there and everywhere with I could be wishy-washy and just swayed. But there's this reoccurring theme that I just really refuse to be subscribed to anymore. I think I'm just too grown to stick around and act like I was born yesterday.

Do you compartmentalize?

Yes. I do, too. Yeah. Don't we all? I don't know if in therapy, it was explained. My therapist was like, How phenomenal that you came up with this mechanism of how to survive, though. It's actually amazing. Instead of being like, I make the worst decisions, blah, blah, blah, it's like, you found a way to feel good. We're all just trying to feel good and trying to survive and get our needs met and not feel pain because most of us are in a lot of pain. When my My father did die nine years ago and when I had just wanted him to choose to prioritize me, and I didn't understand the nature of addiction, and when I just wanted him to just fucking cut it out and just stop being an addict, but he couldn't, that was really hard to accept. Then I wanted validation from other men. Then I had dealt with that in my career and then with relationships and all that stuff.

There was a point, and you've talked about mother and the mental struggles that she had and the constant suicide conversations she had with you. I mean, your mother, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were young when all of these mental struggles and talks of suicide were being brought to you.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. My mom has always struggled, and that's something that I I thought it was... I thought that I brought on her mental emotional struggles. I don't want to diagnose her. My mom's also down to talk about this stuff, which I'm really proud of her and I'm grateful for. That is great. I'm really, really grateful. It speaks to her growth. I thought that it was something that I brought on because I was so terrible and because I was so selfish and all these things because she told me that I was. But my mom had been so suicidal through her life. When my aunts and uncles shared that with me, when I had told them that I had to talk her off a ledge when I was on tour or when I had to call our priest and have him talk to her and calm her down and things like that, when I'm 13, 14 years old and I'm there by myself and I'm on tour and I'm doing these press obligations and I'm hyperventilating in a corner and she's... After I've locked the windows and closed the doors and made sure that she promised me that she It's too much.

It was too much. I thought that it was my fault. I internalized that for a long time. Even thinking about it, I feel my throat tightening. I feel my heart closing. It was a hinge point in my life. When I was 17 and she no longer wanted to be in the music industry, but I did, I thought that, well, she was managing me at the time, but she hated the music industry. She didn't I don't want to be involved anymore. I said, Okay, so I'll find another manager. She was like, You want to throw me out? You want to get rid of me? I'm like, I want you to be my mom. I want us to be a family again. She's like, No, you always choose everybody over me, blah, blah, blah. Then she wrote me a... She wrote a suicide note, and she was prepared to do it. I found her and intercepted. I was in the studio at the time, and I had this intuition that something was going on, and I needed to check on her because I was recording at a place where there was also a hotel. It was in Vegas.

That's one of the most scariest moments of my life. The compartmentalization, that's probably where… I mean, I'm sure it began before then, but of just rocking her and making her promise me that she'd stay on Earth with me and then being like… It was just really disgustingly painful for both of us. Really painful for her, really painful for me. Then knowing that everybody in the studio in the label was waiting for me to get back to the studio, none of them knew what was going on. I also wanted to protect her because they all hated her, too, because she was trying to take me... She wanted to take me out of the music industry. It was a very deeply, deeply confusing time. And that's part of why I wanted to write this, because I'm like, What happened? What was even going on? Yeah.

Then you left your mom in that situation and you go back to them and you're like, Okay, let's go. And you've compartmentalized that and you're ready to just put on this face to make other people happy.

Yeah. And I didn't know what the right thing to do was. I didn't know, should I just dedicate my life to making sure my mom as well? Because I will. Is that what I'm supposed to do? Then the rest of my extended family is telling me, No, save yourself. She's not well. Let her blah, blah, blah. And they're like, You need to emancipate yourself. Neither of your parents should be in your life. It was just really confusing. And I wanted to. I wanted to emancipate myself. Of course, I thought I knew everything that was right for me, particularly at 17.

Well, you've been taking care of yourself to a certain extent.

I think I stopped being parented at 12. My mom just felt like her rights were taken away when other people stepped in. She felt like her walls were cut off, essentially, as my mom. I feel really sad for her. I have a lot of empathy, I guess, would be the word now, whereas I was just like, You should have just put your foot down for things that you… If you wanted me to stay in school, then you should have. But it's way easier said than done. I think my mom did an amazing job.

When did you realize it wasn't your fault?

For her struggles? I would say after my dad died. Again, they weren't together, but I really dove into therapy even more after he passed. I had to accept that if my dad could die, that my mom could die, too, and that I won't have my parents. Even just the thought of them being there is just comforting. Even if I don't get exactly what I want out of that relationship dynamic all the time. I had to be like, I couldn't save my dad. I can't save my mom. It wasn't my fault that he passed. It wasn't that I could have done anything more. I think it's programs like Al-Anon and AA that are really helpful as well as a community and of talking to other people that grew up with families who are struggling with addiction and stuff like that. Talking to other people, realizing that actually my story wasn't that uncommon. It was a lot of people might My therapists, I have had wonderful romantic partners in my life, and they helped to support me through different years and seeing different parental dynamics with them, for example, like my partners, parents, and being like, Oh, you don't feel the weight of the world on your shoulders.

You don't feel responsible for your parents' finances or well-being or staying alive. Maybe I don't need to. Maybe I shouldn't.

We talk a lot on our show about family dynamics, and I think it's a very comforting feeling sometimes just to remind yourself that whatever your parents did, good or bad, that probably did their best they could.

100%.

A lot of our parents are deeply flawed, and probably a lot of that comes from their childhood and this generational trauma and things like that. Exactly. Everyone's family is different. But when you sometimes just realize that maybe for all their flaws, they probably did the best they could.

I feel very blessed to know that both my parents really love me. Not everybody can say that. I think there are some people who do not feel loved by their parents and can't say that their parents did the best they could because they sucked or whatever. But my parents didn't suck as human beings. They're like lovely human beings who were in a lot of pain, and so am I. We deal with it differently. I'm grateful that I don't have a kid yet because I certainly would not have been ready anytime before now.

I think about that a lot. You know what I mean? I've always wanted to be a dad. My desire to be a good dad would have been just as strong as it is now. But I think about had I become a father in my earlier years when I thought I was going to be a father, I wouldn't have been as good. The effort would have been there, but I know I'm way more empathetic now. I'm way more patient now. I'm less stubborn. I just think I would have talked to my kids differently. Again, the passion, the effort would have been there, but I think the execution would have of how I am as a father would be much different. I am grateful as long as I had to wait, that I waited as long as I did.

You became a father later in life than you thought you would? Much later, yeah. When did you think you'd have a kid?

I have 10 brothers and sisters.

Ten?

Yeah. I come from a very traditional, conservative family. When I was 18, 19, in my head, I'm like, I'm going to have a wife and two or three kids and a BMW and I'm 25. No, in my head, I'm like early mid 20s. But when you're 18, that seems so old. Then you get there and you're like, What the fuck is going on in my life? But yeah, I expected to be settled down in my early 20s, and that obviously didn't happen the way I had planned it. But it worked out, obviously. But just I think about how I would have been as a father. Sometimes I'm like, damn, I don't know if I would have been as... I think I would have been fine. I would have loved my kid.

It would have been different.

I think I would have traumatized them a little bit in a way. Just not in an abusive way or anything like that, but the way we talk to our kids or how we communicate our frustrations and these little things. It's the thing. We all have trauma from our childhood. You don't have to have shitty parents to have trauma from your childhood. You just have to have... It's this living life.

No one is exempt from that. I'm sure people have said to you guys, You got to start saving for your kid's therapy eventually, because that's just the time that we live in and probably will continue to live in, that We just discuss our emotions more and want to work through them and be responsible with them and be more introspective and more relationally responsible and all that stuff. So, yeah, inevitably, I think parents are going to always traumatize their children in some way, but I guess there's certainly levels to it.

As someone who's worked a lot on their mental health, I imagine if I asked you if you had any regrets, you'd probably say not really, because you look at you right now, you have an ultra-successful career, you seem very at But if I had asked you, as far as your professional career, if you could go back and just make one decision you made, you could make a different decision, what would that be?

Let me think about that for a second.

One do-over.

Yeah, one do-over. I mean, I would redo every single time that I betrayed my gut instinct and that I listened to somebody else who said that they knew better for me than what I actually like. Anytime I put out a song that I didn't like, that's never worth it. It's whack. It's whack. It's not worth it. It doesn't work. How many different ways can I say the same thing? It doesn't work if you don't like it. That's what I would say to anybody in the music industry. I'm glad that it's a different time because I just, and maybe I'm wrong, it's not like I'm in the center of it at all, but it seems as though the major labels can't really do that same thing where they'll be like, actually, no, they probably can, but where it's like, this is the only song song that we'll put out on you. I had that so many times where it's like, I have all these songs recorded, and they're like, well, you need to put out this song with this big producer because we also have his label imprint on our thing. So we're getting a percentage of that.

And the songwriters, we have their publishing and blah, blah, blah, all these stupid political things that I don't care about and have nothing to do with the art or the vibes. I would just not do that because it's not worth it. And I I think liking the work that you put out is just so important. It really chips away at your self-trust and your just sense of anything.

Is there one you put out that- There's so many.

Which one do you- The first one that comes to mind is a song called When Love hurts. It's a song called When Love hurts because I don't think that love should hurt, first of all. But I'll tell you, desperate times make you do desperate things. I was so desperate to put out music because it had been so long. I had been in a lawsuit with my previous record label, the one that I was afraid of that I was mentioning to you. As soon as I got out of that deal, I was like, I need to start putting things out. Then I signed to another label, and then there were musical chairs, and then the person who signed me there left and went to another thing, and then I was still there. Then they were like, Well, this is the only song we'll put out on you. I'm like, Well, it's been almost 10 years since I've released something officially. Yes, I had put out Marvin's Room. Yes, I had done other things, just to literally stay afloat and to let my fans know that I wasn't dead. But I betrayed my even things that I liked because I was desperate to put something out.

I felt like, well, these people have had success for more instances of success than I had, so I might as well give it a shot. But I ended up completely forgetting what it is that I liked at all because I was just really trying to make everybody happy but myself. Long-winded answer. But I also- I love long-winded answers. I don't live with regret, but I also do regret things in my personal life because any instance in which I've hurt somebody else, I regret that. Even if, yes, I was doing my best at the time, and I definitely talk about that in Over the Influence, the pain that I was in, whether it's in my career and I wanted to distract myself from it, that's what led me to cheat on a love my life and to send myself down a spiral. Perhaps subconsciously, I did it because I was so despondent and depressed and feeling I didn't know what was going on in my career that I'm like, What can I do to fuck everything up even worse? Let me do a horrific It's a horrific thing. Maybe it'll make me feel like I'm even more in control of what's going on in my life because I feel so out of control.

I don't know why I did it, but that is something that I can easily say. I regret that. Even if I can understand why, it doesn't matter. I hate the fact that I am the villain in someone's story and that I've been a hinge point in someone's life where they then had to recover from me. That breaks my heart. It's just it sucks, but it's reality.

Is that what ended that relationship?

A lot of things ended that particular relationship. That was a massive part of it. It's hard to recover from that. Pride is a real thing. Also, Just being like, You can't do this to me. I get it. Sometimes you just got to let it go. But I think it's hard for men.

Do you think he knows you're sorry?

He knows. I wrote a whole album about it. I've seen him. He knows. I think the most loving thing that I can do for him as a friend and someone who truly loves him is just send him love through the ether and write letters sometimes and be like, Oh, you'd think this was... And never send them. But that's what I've learned through maturity because for a while, I was like, No, I need to make this right, and blah, blah, blah. Sometimes you just can't.

In your book, Over the Influence, you talk about someone telling you that you need to foul for bankruptcy in your 20s. And you being like, No, but I'm not bankrupt.

What? My earnest ass. I'm like, But I'm not. They're like, This is what rich people do. They were trying to show me.

So what is that story? Can you talk about that?

Sure. Yeah. So it was my lawyer at the time who comes from a very wealthy, successful family. And he was like, There's this loophole that would make the contract that you're in. Because a record deal is a service contract. It's a personal service contract, and it's legally binding. I signed it at 12 years old, but it was ratified by the State of New York and a Guardian ad litem and all these different things that make it ironclad. It doesn't just expire when you're 18. Even though you're 12. That's crazy. It has all these things that make it. It doesn't just I was signed to a seven-album deal that because they weren't putting... They didn't have distribution anymore, so they couldn't put out more albums on me, so I couldn't get out of the deal ever. They just weren't going to release me. They were just going to have me sit on a shelf, but they weren't even doing anything. My lawyer was like, The way that you could get out of this is by filing bankruptcy. It would make any personal service contracts that you're in null and void because it'd say, There's no way for me to make a living or to blah, blah, blah.

But because I come from a working class New England background, that didn't compute to me. My family was already worried about me, and they're just, What are they doing? What is your label doing? This is your prime, and you got to do something. And bankruptcy was just not the thing that anybody thought I should do. So I didn't. But I wish in retrospect that I had, because I I think it would have been a cleaner break as opposed to then finding litigators who took my case on contingency and instead put the full court press on my label to be like, They found this loophole that said you can't hold a minor to a personal service contract for longer than seven years in the state of New York, blah, blah, blah. But now I'm still paying a percentage to those lawyers over 10 years later because they did it on contingency. So now they still get 5% everything that I make, even though I made no money from getting out of that deal. It's a nightmare. That is a nightmare. It sucks. Oh, my God. That's something that nobody nobody thinks about.

You really had to fight for your professional independence.

Just to even, not even just independent, just to be able to be a professional, just to be able to make a living and own my voice again. So, yeah, I definitely had to fight. I think that that's why also I didn't have the fight creatively in me anymore. I had fought in so many different ways. Then I felt like I was fighting my mom and I was fighting even my manager. I just was in such a fight that then I became totally despondent. Then I just didn't feel anything for a very long time.

I talk all the time about how our energy is an infinite and our thoughts take a lot of energy. When we're fighting all these different battles and all these different fronts, our creative energy can go by the wayside. The things we love to do the most sometimes get the least amount of our energy.

Definitely. I realized that I was a very good worker, really good at just putting one foot in front of the next, of putting blinders on and just pushing through. But I really was not an artist. I was just doing things for a long time. I just felt like that's what I was supposed to be doing. So getting in touch with just even, have you guys done The Artist's Way? It sounds like there's this book called The Artist's Way, which is how to reignite that inner artist within you. Whether you consider yourself an artist or not, we all really have that within us. It's about the first thing you do in the morning is you write three pages of continuous nonstop words on the page, and you don't take the pen off, and you just word vomit. It's a way to just get in touch with that inner voice and also to take your artist on a date. I took myself to the opera and just completely by myself and Started taking solo trips and just seeing what do I like outside of everything else that anybody had told me to like or told me would advance my career or told me this is the right move for your trajectory or whatever.

It was really confusing from a young age to have so many cooks in the kitchen when I think it's important for a developing mind to have the space to develop. That's why I wouldn't recommend that people get into the music industry No, I don't mean... If you love it, you love it, but I would not recommend that kids get involved, ever. It's just you have too soft of a brain. There's too many things going on, energetically and in every other way.

I know we have to wrap up here, and I just have one last random question, but is your uncle really triple H? No. I read that on... Okay, good. I read that on Wikipedia. It says that on Wikipedia.

Wait, no, no, no. Okay, I wait for a second. I forgot, but no, his name is Lavec, right? I think we have the same last name. No, he's not. But that would be very cool. Okay. That'd be cool. Wikipedia. That would have been a great entry point into entertainment. Got to update Wikipedia.

I was like, really?

I don't see the resemblance.

No, we've never met.

All right, well, case closed.

Case closed.

Joanna, thanks so much for your time. It's been such a pleasure talking with you.

You guys are such a joy. Just what a beautiful dynamic you have. Thank you for having me on.

We really appreciate it. We're a huge fan. Make sure you go check out and pre-order Joanna's book, Over the Influence. Thank you. When does it come out?

September 17th.

September 17th. You can pre-order now. Anywhere you pre-order your books, I'm assuming it gets on Audible.Yes. Everywhere.yes..

I did that.

Anywhere you get your books, Over the Influence. That's where it is. Over the influence. That's right. Again, Joanna, I can't thank you enough. You're such an inspiration. Congratulations on your amazing career and your future success, which I'm sure we're excited to see what becomes of that. I'm sure it's going to be wonderful. But thank you much. It's been such an honor for both of us. We're so excited to have had you. And thanks so much.

I appreciate you guys.

Thank you. And thank you guys for listening.

I love you.

We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.

It's time to gear up for the school year at Tilleria Outlets with all the essentials from first day fits to backpacks, jackets, sneakers, and more. All for an additional 25 % off the outlet price at participating stores. 30 lucky shoppers could win a free bike. Enter by scanning the QR code next to Columbia and Coach. Shop name brands like Nike, Converse, Tilly's, Vans, and more at outlet prices. Visit telariaoutlets. Com for details. Telaria Outlets, Highway 99. Exit Cart Mill.

This is an ad from Better Help. As kids, we were always learning and growing, but at some point as adults, we tend to lose that sense of curiosity and excitement. Therapy can help you continue that journey because your back to school era can come at any age. And Better Help makes it easy to get started with affordable online therapy you can do from anywhere. Rediscover possibility with Betterhelp. Visit betterhelp, h-e-l-p. Com/newdirection today to get 10% off your first month.