A quick warning, there are curse words that are unbeeped in todays episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org dot. For three weeks, Joe Biden said, as forcefully as a human being possibly could say that he would not step down after three weeks. It was this agonizing drip, drip, drip of people trying to get him to reconsider, and of voters around the country wondering if he was going to reconsider, fed by a steady stream of daily news stories that read tea leaves and applied electron microscopes to the tiniest scraps of evidence, looking for any minuscule signs indicating that maybe it could happen, maybe Biden would rethink things, Democrats wondering what it might take to change Bidens mind. Meanwhile, over in the other half of the country, in red state America, at the Republican National Convention, people who had changed their minds and reconsidered firmly held convictions were a big part of the festivities. Donald Trump picked his vice president, a man who once said about him, my God, what an idiot. JD Vance, Nikki Haley, who had once called Trump unhinged, and other former Trump rivals, people who once seemed like they hated Trump, had spoken out against him, took the stage to show how they'd reconsidered.

And even Trump himself, the centerpiece of the whole thing, seemed not a high stakes debate. This was just a low stakes conversation with a bunch of fellow Democrats. But it didn't go terribly well for the president.How so?It just seemed like he's not taking our concern seriously, making a lot of excuses, you know, on the one hand, citing polls that say he's doing better while dismissing all the bad polls by saying polls don't matter and just continuing to refuse to answer this question about how are you going to turn things around, sir.So as we record this, it's Monday, July 1519. Members of Congress and one senator are with you basically in total, calling for President Biden to step down. And then the rest of the democratic party, elected officials, are on the other side. How is that feeling?Well, first of all, that's just not an accurate characterization. 19 plus one are public. The majority are with me. And so therefore, how does it feel, it feels frustrating.Can I ask you, are you in a sort of perverse situation where when you watch the president now on tv, you're sort of hoping for him to slip up? Like if he slips up more, it'll speed.No, no, no.On the path towards having to step down?It's an interesting question. No, I'm not hoping the president will slip up, but I am hoping that something happens to push him over the edge to just to make him realize, to face reality here. I think it's important to say, ira, that I genuinely love Joe Biden. He's been a great mentor to me. He's consistently given me great advice. I have nothing but good things to say about Joe Biden.Is there some moment between you that especially stands out or you think captures what it's like being, or what it was like in the past between you and him?President Biden used to have me over for breakfast when he was vice president, and we'd sit at his residence, and of course, breakfast was always scheduled for about an hour, and it would go for close to three. And he would regale me with stories from his time in the Senate and the lessons that he's learned about politics over the years. I'd ask very serious questions, pose situations where I needed advice, and he genuinely took me under his wing. It felt like he was invested in me personally. Now there are hundreds of people in politics who know Joe Biden better than I. I'm still relatively new to this whole thing, but I like him a lot. I could tell that he cared.Knowing him to the degree that you do, are you surprised that he won't give up?He's incredibly tenacious. But I also know he's dedicated to our country. And there's a well worn phrase in the marines that they try to drill into you day after day in training, which is, it's not about you. And that's my fundamental message to President Biden today is, sir, this is not about you. You're an amazing president. You've been an incredible senator. You've done so much for the United States of America. And now the best thing you can do is to step aside and give us just a little bit better chance at defeating Donald Trump and winning this election.Congressman Seth Moulton from Massachusetts. Again, we spoke on Monday well before the president decided to step down. Coming up, typing with your pinkies now it has the power to make you rethink everything about your own sister. We have a true life example. That's in a minute record. It is all connected, but it is pretty wild that all this stuff is coming up.Six months go by, and Zoe's getting faster by the millisecond. Early on, she double checks with Eliza. Are you sure you're okay with this? And Eliza's like, yeah, sure. So Zoe trains on. Finally, she's ready to go for it. To officially break the record, Zoe has to video her attempt to break the record and send it in to Guinness. And so, on the day of her first attempt, she invited friends. Overdose.I wore, like, sweatbands around my head and my wrists because it was, like, my athletic olympian event.Like your rocky moment?Yeah, it was fully my rocky moment, and I should have gotten tiny little sweat bands for my pinkies. That was a missed opportunity. I did my little slate where I say, my name is Zoe Koshlefsky. Hi, my name is Zoe Kushlefsky. I'm here in Los Angeles, California. California. I am attempting to break the record for the fastest time to type the Alphabet with the little fingers. Oh. And I'm here with my witnesses, Rebecca Cochin and Ben Liguri.Zoe goes up to her computer, holds her hands in the air, cracks her knuckles, and wiggles her fingers, warms up her pinkies. Okay, I'm in position.Great. Okay, are we ready?Mm hmm.Mm hmm.Okay.Three, two, one. Go.Done.You got it?I got it.4.6 seconds. The record to beat was 5.12. After a few months, Guinness writes her back. She was now the Guinness World Records time holder. Zoe calls up Eliza to tell her the good news. She let me sit in and record.So, yeah, you know, I got the record. How do you feel about that?I'm excited for you.Thank you.Yeah.Eliza congratulates her, but also says, for.Me, I'm really over the whole record thing, to be honest. For me, it was like, it's almost done, what, like, nine months now since I did it, so I'm very over. I'm just excited for you. I don't really care anymore. From my perspective, I did what I do, so for me, it was just, yeah, something fun to do, and so doesn't really matter to me anymore. All the, like, specifics. I don't know. It just depends, like, what it meant to you. I think it could have been. It was different for you, but for me, I mean, I wore off a while ago. Like, so it passed pretty quickly for me, but for you, it might be different.True.True.I felt like I could hear Zoe deflating on the call. She went from cheering and laughing to being ashamed for even caring. This was such a sister counter attack. She seemed so harsh. But when I sat down with Eliza to talk about it, she was warm, self deprecating.I come in frazzled. My hands have a little ketchup on them.So I played the call for her and just asked her what was up with that. How do you think you sound in this?Not great. I mean, I think I sound offensive and defensive. I think so. I'm like, I don't even really care. But for you, it's different. Oh, this matters to you, but it doesn't matter to me. For you, it's better. Like, it's good.Here's the thing. Eliza knew Zoe was recording her, and in good sister fashion, she'd said she was okay with it, but she wasn't really. So she was flustered and uncomfortable, and she had other feelings, too. This itch Zoe has to take her down. Eliza's noticed, and it doesn't feel great. If you look at the story from her perspective. Eliza breaks a world record, and I. When she first texts her sister, hey, I did this cool thing. Zoe's response is, fuck your thing.And, like, I guess I was just like, why is her first response to compete with me and one up me? And I was just like, instead of being happy for me, she saw it as this competition, and her first response was like, I can do it better. This is this cool thing that I tried to achieve and now you're trying to beat it.Yeah. Why are you coming after me?Yeah. And I think it's the fact that her first text after was like, I bet I can do it faster.Right. She didn't even say congratulations.Yeah. So then it's like, if that's where this is coming from, like, that feels hurtful. The entire way it was phrased was just doing it better than me.Eliza didn't say any of this to Zoe, though. She felt like it was a dumb thing to get her feelings hurt. Overdose. So instead, she texted Zoe. I dare you. Eliza says, Zoe, always trying to one up her this way. Eliza doesn't get it. You personally have never felt like you've been competing with Zoe.Not competing. Like, to me, it's, like, not even comparable. I've always admired the fact that she's out in La living her dreams, and it's just that she is in a very different career path. But I always think, like, everything she's doing there is amazing. And she's married and she has a house.Yes. Zoey is married. She lives in a nice house. She and her wife have a great relationship. Eliza hasn't yet checked off those big life boxes. She's also, Eliza told me, the performer of the family, the one who upstages her. Plus, Zoe's the oldest. She's actually the big sister. Eliza's like you, winden.I felt like she set the tone like she was player one on the Wii. She had to go to the bathroom first when we got home from the car ride. Not in any resentful way, just in like a. That was the pecking order. You're the oldest sibling. That felt right. So. And I think she even said to me, too. I think she said she feels like there's a point where it flipped. And, like, to her, I felt more like the older sister, but that never happened for me. I've always seen her as the oldest sister. I still look up to her a lot. I think I still really like to get her approval. I don't know if she said, but actually, someone made a comment about that recently in our family that I like to get her approval. So, to me, I've always looked up to her and admired her, and I still do.She told me she had no idea that the day she texted Zoe about her world record was the day Zoe ended treatment. And Zoe never said anything. And she also had no idea that from the time they were kids, Zoe felt inferior to her.Yeah, that's shocking to me.Shocking, yeah.I mean, like, I just don't see myself in that role. Like, wow. Like, she's doing so much better. I didn't realize she felt like that.Eliza says that growing up, she had no idea. Zoe thought Eliza was the favorite, the daughter their dad really wanted. She never noticed that she got dessert and Zoe got fruit.I mean, it makes me sad to think that some of that, I think, especially now that we're older, I'm very aware of, but I definitely, again, wasn't as a child. And it makes me sad to think of Zoe going through all that and feeling very alone and me having no idea, like, that is so isolating.But then I also see it from your perspective, because it sort of, like, has nothing to do with you, but.It, like, I don't see it from my perspective. It does have to do with me. I mean, even if it doesn't directly. Like, I wish I could have been there for her and, like, yeah, I don't know why I wasn't. Oh, like, I don't know. Just, like, being younger and just not you seeing these things, and maybe it's not something that I was primed to think about, so I wasn't, like, even noticing.Since this whole pinky record thing, for the first time, Zoe and Eliza have started talking about all this directly. They called each other, compared notes. Zoe was like, oops, I didn't say congratulations after you got your record, did I? And Eliza was like, I had no idea you thought my job was cool. And Zoe, who in one sentence will say she admires Eliza and in the next say she's jealous, has realized that they're two sides of the same coin. And how she feels about Eliza in any given moment has everything to do with how she feels about herself and she's being more generous with her. It all looks different now to both of them.Elena Baker. She's the co host of the podcast. Pretty sure I can fly with Johnny Knoxville. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Her story was produced by Lily Sullivan and edited by Nadia Riemann.We consider.Are you sure you had enough of me? Just think about what you left behind. Reconsider just before you turn your back on me.Our program is produced today by Susan Burton and Dana Chivas and edited by Garz Dzorcheski. People who put our show together today include Chris Benderev, Gendari Bans, Sean Cole, Michael Kamate, Aviva de Kornfeld, Emmanuel Jochi, Hani Hwassli, Henry Larson, Tobin Lowell, Katherine Raymondo, Ryan Rumery, Elise Spiegel, Ike Sris, Kondaraja, Francis Swanson, Christopher Cirtala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker and Diane Wu. Our managing editor is Sara Abduraiman. Our senior senior editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks today to everybody at Wu WM, especially David Lee and Ellie Ellis. Also thanks to Ben Terras, Mike elk with payday Report, Mike Pesca, Sarah McCammon, Don Gagne, Jonathan Weissman and Pala Moda. Our website, thisamericanlife.org dot. If you're looking for something to listen to during a long drive during this holiday summer or while you're waiting for planes to fly, you can stream from our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free. Free. Did you hear me? Thisamericanlife.org dot. This american life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Miss Tory Malatia. You know, when he's in Washington, DC, he actually goes to the same yoga class that Joe Biden does.But the teacher is so overbearing. Tori keeps having to tell her, let's.Be respectful of the president and push him gently in the right position.I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of this american life.

not a high stakes debate. This was just a low stakes conversation with a bunch of fellow Democrats. But it didn't go terribly well for the president.

How so?

It just seemed like he's not taking our concern seriously, making a lot of excuses, you know, on the one hand, citing polls that say he's doing better while dismissing all the bad polls by saying polls don't matter and just continuing to refuse to answer this question about how are you going to turn things around, sir.

So as we record this, it's Monday, July 1519. Members of Congress and one senator are with you basically in total, calling for President Biden to step down. And then the rest of the democratic party, elected officials, are on the other side. How is that feeling?

Well, first of all, that's just not an accurate characterization. 19 plus one are public. The majority are with me. And so therefore, how does it feel, it feels frustrating.

Can I ask you, are you in a sort of perverse situation where when you watch the president now on tv, you're sort of hoping for him to slip up? Like if he slips up more, it'll speed.

No, no, no.

On the path towards having to step down?

It's an interesting question. No, I'm not hoping the president will slip up, but I am hoping that something happens to push him over the edge to just to make him realize, to face reality here. I think it's important to say, ira, that I genuinely love Joe Biden. He's been a great mentor to me. He's consistently given me great advice. I have nothing but good things to say about Joe Biden.

Is there some moment between you that especially stands out or you think captures what it's like being, or what it was like in the past between you and him?

President Biden used to have me over for breakfast when he was vice president, and we'd sit at his residence, and of course, breakfast was always scheduled for about an hour, and it would go for close to three. And he would regale me with stories from his time in the Senate and the lessons that he's learned about politics over the years. I'd ask very serious questions, pose situations where I needed advice, and he genuinely took me under his wing. It felt like he was invested in me personally. Now there are hundreds of people in politics who know Joe Biden better than I. I'm still relatively new to this whole thing, but I like him a lot. I could tell that he cared.

Knowing him to the degree that you do, are you surprised that he won't give up?

He's incredibly tenacious. But I also know he's dedicated to our country. And there's a well worn phrase in the marines that they try to drill into you day after day in training, which is, it's not about you. And that's my fundamental message to President Biden today is, sir, this is not about you. You're an amazing president. You've been an incredible senator. You've done so much for the United States of America. And now the best thing you can do is to step aside and give us just a little bit better chance at defeating Donald Trump and winning this election.

Congressman Seth Moulton from Massachusetts. Again, we spoke on Monday well before the president decided to step down. Coming up, typing with your pinkies now it has the power to make you rethink everything about your own sister. We have a true life example. That's in a minute record. It is all connected, but it is pretty wild that all this stuff is coming up.Six months go by, and Zoe's getting faster by the millisecond. Early on, she double checks with Eliza. Are you sure you're okay with this? And Eliza's like, yeah, sure. So Zoe trains on. Finally, she's ready to go for it. To officially break the record, Zoe has to video her attempt to break the record and send it in to Guinness. And so, on the day of her first attempt, she invited friends. Overdose.I wore, like, sweatbands around my head and my wrists because it was, like, my athletic olympian event.Like your rocky moment?Yeah, it was fully my rocky moment, and I should have gotten tiny little sweat bands for my pinkies. That was a missed opportunity. I did my little slate where I say, my name is Zoe Koshlefsky. Hi, my name is Zoe Kushlefsky. I'm here in Los Angeles, California. California. I am attempting to break the record for the fastest time to type the Alphabet with the little fingers. Oh. And I'm here with my witnesses, Rebecca Cochin and Ben Liguri.Zoe goes up to her computer, holds her hands in the air, cracks her knuckles, and wiggles her fingers, warms up her pinkies. Okay, I'm in position.Great. Okay, are we ready?Mm hmm.Mm hmm.Okay.Three, two, one. Go.Done.You got it?I got it.4.6 seconds. The record to beat was 5.12. After a few months, Guinness writes her back. She was now the Guinness World Records time holder. Zoe calls up Eliza to tell her the good news. She let me sit in and record.So, yeah, you know, I got the record. How do you feel about that?I'm excited for you.Thank you.Yeah.Eliza congratulates her, but also says, for.Me, I'm really over the whole record thing, to be honest. For me, it was like, it's almost done, what, like, nine months now since I did it, so I'm very over. I'm just excited for you. I don't really care anymore. From my perspective, I did what I do, so for me, it was just, yeah, something fun to do, and so doesn't really matter to me anymore. All the, like, specifics. I don't know. It just depends, like, what it meant to you. I think it could have been. It was different for you, but for me, I mean, I wore off a while ago. Like, so it passed pretty quickly for me, but for you, it might be different.True.True.I felt like I could hear Zoe deflating on the call. She went from cheering and laughing to being ashamed for even caring. This was such a sister counter attack. She seemed so harsh. But when I sat down with Eliza to talk about it, she was warm, self deprecating.I come in frazzled. My hands have a little ketchup on them.So I played the call for her and just asked her what was up with that. How do you think you sound in this?Not great. I mean, I think I sound offensive and defensive. I think so. I'm like, I don't even really care. But for you, it's different. Oh, this matters to you, but it doesn't matter to me. For you, it's better. Like, it's good.Here's the thing. Eliza knew Zoe was recording her, and in good sister fashion, she'd said she was okay with it, but she wasn't really. So she was flustered and uncomfortable, and she had other feelings, too. This itch Zoe has to take her down. Eliza's noticed, and it doesn't feel great. If you look at the story from her perspective. Eliza breaks a world record, and I. When she first texts her sister, hey, I did this cool thing. Zoe's response is, fuck your thing.And, like, I guess I was just like, why is her first response to compete with me and one up me? And I was just like, instead of being happy for me, she saw it as this competition, and her first response was like, I can do it better. This is this cool thing that I tried to achieve and now you're trying to beat it.Yeah. Why are you coming after me?Yeah. And I think it's the fact that her first text after was like, I bet I can do it faster.Right. She didn't even say congratulations.Yeah. So then it's like, if that's where this is coming from, like, that feels hurtful. The entire way it was phrased was just doing it better than me.Eliza didn't say any of this to Zoe, though. She felt like it was a dumb thing to get her feelings hurt. Overdose. So instead, she texted Zoe. I dare you. Eliza says, Zoe, always trying to one up her this way. Eliza doesn't get it. You personally have never felt like you've been competing with Zoe.Not competing. Like, to me, it's, like, not even comparable. I've always admired the fact that she's out in La living her dreams, and it's just that she is in a very different career path. But I always think, like, everything she's doing there is amazing. And she's married and she has a house.Yes. Zoey is married. She lives in a nice house. She and her wife have a great relationship. Eliza hasn't yet checked off those big life boxes. She's also, Eliza told me, the performer of the family, the one who upstages her. Plus, Zoe's the oldest. She's actually the big sister. Eliza's like you, winden.I felt like she set the tone like she was player one on the Wii. She had to go to the bathroom first when we got home from the car ride. Not in any resentful way, just in like a. That was the pecking order. You're the oldest sibling. That felt right. So. And I think she even said to me, too. I think she said she feels like there's a point where it flipped. And, like, to her, I felt more like the older sister, but that never happened for me. I've always seen her as the oldest sister. I still look up to her a lot. I think I still really like to get her approval. I don't know if she said, but actually, someone made a comment about that recently in our family that I like to get her approval. So, to me, I've always looked up to her and admired her, and I still do.She told me she had no idea that the day she texted Zoe about her world record was the day Zoe ended treatment. And Zoe never said anything. And she also had no idea that from the time they were kids, Zoe felt inferior to her.Yeah, that's shocking to me.Shocking, yeah.I mean, like, I just don't see myself in that role. Like, wow. Like, she's doing so much better. I didn't realize she felt like that.Eliza says that growing up, she had no idea. Zoe thought Eliza was the favorite, the daughter their dad really wanted. She never noticed that she got dessert and Zoe got fruit.I mean, it makes me sad to think that some of that, I think, especially now that we're older, I'm very aware of, but I definitely, again, wasn't as a child. And it makes me sad to think of Zoe going through all that and feeling very alone and me having no idea, like, that is so isolating.But then I also see it from your perspective, because it sort of, like, has nothing to do with you, but.It, like, I don't see it from my perspective. It does have to do with me. I mean, even if it doesn't directly. Like, I wish I could have been there for her and, like, yeah, I don't know why I wasn't. Oh, like, I don't know. Just, like, being younger and just not you seeing these things, and maybe it's not something that I was primed to think about, so I wasn't, like, even noticing.Since this whole pinky record thing, for the first time, Zoe and Eliza have started talking about all this directly. They called each other, compared notes. Zoe was like, oops, I didn't say congratulations after you got your record, did I? And Eliza was like, I had no idea you thought my job was cool. And Zoe, who in one sentence will say she admires Eliza and in the next say she's jealous, has realized that they're two sides of the same coin. And how she feels about Eliza in any given moment has everything to do with how she feels about herself and she's being more generous with her. It all looks different now to both of them.Elena Baker. She's the co host of the podcast. Pretty sure I can fly with Johnny Knoxville. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Her story was produced by Lily Sullivan and edited by Nadia Riemann.We consider.Are you sure you had enough of me? Just think about what you left behind. Reconsider just before you turn your back on me.Our program is produced today by Susan Burton and Dana Chivas and edited by Garz Dzorcheski. People who put our show together today include Chris Benderev, Gendari Bans, Sean Cole, Michael Kamate, Aviva de Kornfeld, Emmanuel Jochi, Hani Hwassli, Henry Larson, Tobin Lowell, Katherine Raymondo, Ryan Rumery, Elise Spiegel, Ike Sris, Kondaraja, Francis Swanson, Christopher Cirtala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker and Diane Wu. Our managing editor is Sara Abduraiman. Our senior senior editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks today to everybody at Wu WM, especially David Lee and Ellie Ellis. Also thanks to Ben Terras, Mike elk with payday Report, Mike Pesca, Sarah McCammon, Don Gagne, Jonathan Weissman and Pala Moda. Our website, thisamericanlife.org dot. If you're looking for something to listen to during a long drive during this holiday summer or while you're waiting for planes to fly, you can stream from our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free. Free. Did you hear me? Thisamericanlife.org dot. This american life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Miss Tory Malatia. You know, when he's in Washington, DC, he actually goes to the same yoga class that Joe Biden does.But the teacher is so overbearing. Tori keeps having to tell her, let's.Be respectful of the president and push him gently in the right position.I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of this american life.

record. It is all connected, but it is pretty wild that all this stuff is coming up.

Six months go by, and Zoe's getting faster by the millisecond. Early on, she double checks with Eliza. Are you sure you're okay with this? And Eliza's like, yeah, sure. So Zoe trains on. Finally, she's ready to go for it. To officially break the record, Zoe has to video her attempt to break the record and send it in to Guinness. And so, on the day of her first attempt, she invited friends. Overdose.

I wore, like, sweatbands around my head and my wrists because it was, like, my athletic olympian event.

Like your rocky moment?

Yeah, it was fully my rocky moment, and I should have gotten tiny little sweat bands for my pinkies. That was a missed opportunity. I did my little slate where I say, my name is Zoe Koshlefsky. Hi, my name is Zoe Kushlefsky. I'm here in Los Angeles, California. California. I am attempting to break the record for the fastest time to type the Alphabet with the little fingers. Oh. And I'm here with my witnesses, Rebecca Cochin and Ben Liguri.

Zoe goes up to her computer, holds her hands in the air, cracks her knuckles, and wiggles her fingers, warms up her pinkies. Okay, I'm in position.

Great. Okay, are we ready?

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

Okay.

Three, two, one. Go.

Done.

You got it?

I got it.

4.6 seconds. The record to beat was 5.12. After a few months, Guinness writes her back. She was now the Guinness World Records time holder. Zoe calls up Eliza to tell her the good news. She let me sit in and record.

So, yeah, you know, I got the record. How do you feel about that?

I'm excited for you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Eliza congratulates her, but also says, for.

Me, I'm really over the whole record thing, to be honest. For me, it was like, it's almost done, what, like, nine months now since I did it, so I'm very over. I'm just excited for you. I don't really care anymore. From my perspective, I did what I do, so for me, it was just, yeah, something fun to do, and so doesn't really matter to me anymore. All the, like, specifics. I don't know. It just depends, like, what it meant to you. I think it could have been. It was different for you, but for me, I mean, I wore off a while ago. Like, so it passed pretty quickly for me, but for you, it might be different.

True.

True.

I felt like I could hear Zoe deflating on the call. She went from cheering and laughing to being ashamed for even caring. This was such a sister counter attack. She seemed so harsh. But when I sat down with Eliza to talk about it, she was warm, self deprecating.

I come in frazzled. My hands have a little ketchup on them.

So I played the call for her and just asked her what was up with that. How do you think you sound in this?

Not great. I mean, I think I sound offensive and defensive. I think so. I'm like, I don't even really care. But for you, it's different. Oh, this matters to you, but it doesn't matter to me. For you, it's better. Like, it's good.

Here's the thing. Eliza knew Zoe was recording her, and in good sister fashion, she'd said she was okay with it, but she wasn't really. So she was flustered and uncomfortable, and she had other feelings, too. This itch Zoe has to take her down. Eliza's noticed, and it doesn't feel great. If you look at the story from her perspective. Eliza breaks a world record, and I. When she first texts her sister, hey, I did this cool thing. Zoe's response is, fuck your thing.

And, like, I guess I was just like, why is her first response to compete with me and one up me? And I was just like, instead of being happy for me, she saw it as this competition, and her first response was like, I can do it better. This is this cool thing that I tried to achieve and now you're trying to beat it.

Yeah. Why are you coming after me?

Yeah. And I think it's the fact that her first text after was like, I bet I can do it faster.

Right. She didn't even say congratulations.

Yeah. So then it's like, if that's where this is coming from, like, that feels hurtful. The entire way it was phrased was just doing it better than me.

Eliza didn't say any of this to Zoe, though. She felt like it was a dumb thing to get her feelings hurt. Overdose. So instead, she texted Zoe. I dare you. Eliza says, Zoe, always trying to one up her this way. Eliza doesn't get it. You personally have never felt like you've been competing with Zoe.

Not competing. Like, to me, it's, like, not even comparable. I've always admired the fact that she's out in La living her dreams, and it's just that she is in a very different career path. But I always think, like, everything she's doing there is amazing. And she's married and she has a house.

Yes. Zoey is married. She lives in a nice house. She and her wife have a great relationship. Eliza hasn't yet checked off those big life boxes. She's also, Eliza told me, the performer of the family, the one who upstages her. Plus, Zoe's the oldest. She's actually the big sister. Eliza's like you, winden.

I felt like she set the tone like she was player one on the Wii. She had to go to the bathroom first when we got home from the car ride. Not in any resentful way, just in like a. That was the pecking order. You're the oldest sibling. That felt right. So. And I think she even said to me, too. I think she said she feels like there's a point where it flipped. And, like, to her, I felt more like the older sister, but that never happened for me. I've always seen her as the oldest sister. I still look up to her a lot. I think I still really like to get her approval. I don't know if she said, but actually, someone made a comment about that recently in our family that I like to get her approval. So, to me, I've always looked up to her and admired her, and I still do.

She told me she had no idea that the day she texted Zoe about her world record was the day Zoe ended treatment. And Zoe never said anything. And she also had no idea that from the time they were kids, Zoe felt inferior to her.

Yeah, that's shocking to me.

Shocking, yeah.

I mean, like, I just don't see myself in that role. Like, wow. Like, she's doing so much better. I didn't realize she felt like that.

Eliza says that growing up, she had no idea. Zoe thought Eliza was the favorite, the daughter their dad really wanted. She never noticed that she got dessert and Zoe got fruit.

I mean, it makes me sad to think that some of that, I think, especially now that we're older, I'm very aware of, but I definitely, again, wasn't as a child. And it makes me sad to think of Zoe going through all that and feeling very alone and me having no idea, like, that is so isolating.

But then I also see it from your perspective, because it sort of, like, has nothing to do with you, but.

It, like, I don't see it from my perspective. It does have to do with me. I mean, even if it doesn't directly. Like, I wish I could have been there for her and, like, yeah, I don't know why I wasn't. Oh, like, I don't know. Just, like, being younger and just not you seeing these things, and maybe it's not something that I was primed to think about, so I wasn't, like, even noticing.

Since this whole pinky record thing, for the first time, Zoe and Eliza have started talking about all this directly. They called each other, compared notes. Zoe was like, oops, I didn't say congratulations after you got your record, did I? And Eliza was like, I had no idea you thought my job was cool. And Zoe, who in one sentence will say she admires Eliza and in the next say she's jealous, has realized that they're two sides of the same coin. And how she feels about Eliza in any given moment has everything to do with how she feels about herself and she's being more generous with her. It all looks different now to both of them.

Elena Baker. She's the co host of the podcast. Pretty sure I can fly with Johnny Knoxville. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Her story was produced by Lily Sullivan and edited by Nadia Riemann.

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But the teacher is so overbearing. Tori keeps having to tell her, let's.

Be respectful of the president and push him gently in the right position.

I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of this american life.